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Darth Bane PoD
Darth Bane Orbalisk Armored
Darth Bane DoE
vs
Darth Krayt
Darth Wyyrlok III
Darth Nihl
Darth Talon
Darth Maladi
Darth Stryfe

Fight takes place on the plains of Dantooine

Krayt and his possy. Simply numbers.

Krayt vs Orbalisk Bane. That'll take awhile.

Wyyrlok *and* Maladi vs DoE Bane. We've seen DoE Bane fall to sorcery before. A sorcerer around Zannah's level plus backup should win more surely.

Nihl, Talon, and Stryfe can all gang up on the rookie Bane.

One of the latter two Banes falls, then Krayt and the other group get backup and win.

----

If you went in the other direction and had the strong Banes go after the weaker possy members, sure they'd take out two fairly quickly, but it'd allow the strong One Sith to focus on PoD and take him out just as fast, then focus on DoE and take him down. Even if the weaker One Sith were taken down, you'd be left with the absurd matchup of Krayt and Wyyrlok (+ possibly one or two others!) vs the last Bane.

Hard to say

DOE Bane would prove semi-difficult duel for Krayt, but he'd overcome him eventually. POD Bane could handle any one of Krayt's hands, but all of them on him would take him out simple as that.

It all depends on how they fight Orbalisk Bane, or how long it would take for Krayt to take out Bane.

Its a 50/50, but I think One Sith can do it with massive difficulty and with losing most of their numbers. Once DOE Bane is done and depending how many they've got left, they'll take out Orbalisk Bane so long as Krayt is still alive (which is a virtual certainty, as he was unkillable for the most part

ROT Bane would break off and engage Krayt given his berserker style. Meanwhile DOE Bane would be smart enough to look after POD Bane so as not to let his capabilities go to waste. Given DOE Bane's speed, TK, and unpredictability, they have a good chance of taking down Stryfe and Maladi pretty quickly. Then it's DOE Bane and POD Bane vs Nihl, Talon, and Wyyrlok. Given how powerful in the force and unpredictable DOE Bane is, backed up by the fact that POD Bane, while the weakest Bane, is still skilled enough to contend with a master duelist such as Kas'im, I think the two could win here, especially considering DOE Bane's knowledge on his former self's capabilities. Meanwhile I think ROT Bane could take Krayt.

I think the Bane's would win this one with perhaps the casualty of POD Bane if Wyyrlok's illusions prove capable of spelling his doom.

Yeah, no he wouldn't.

Bane has no definitive strength edge against Krayt, Krayt has punched holes through Abeloth and has speed feats that come close to an amped Bane. Even with the Orbalisk armor Krayt still has the advantage of Dark transfer, and could easily tag Bane and it'd be game over

punching holes in Abeloth was beyond shadows, a realm that has nothing to do with physical stuff.

The 3 Banes win pretty convincingly imo. On a level for level basis, the latter four of the second team get crushed pretty easily the moment any of the Banes choose to, provided one of their teammates aren't protecting them. They haven't established themselves to at all be upper tier or even close.

Krayt and POD Bane I consider a good matchup. Krayt has some interesting skills of dubious applicability (Dark Transfer), great skill with illusions (though Bane's demonstrated some of the best telepathy resistance in the mythos), and great general mastery such as when he contacted every Sith across the entire Galaxy, but Bane by the same token has more proven skills with a lightsaber, his physical feats (speed, TK, lightning) vastly outstrip Krayt's, he possesses probably the best feat of Tutaminis in the mythos, and likewise the scale of his powers is also proven to be high level, as he was capable of redirecting lightning across an entire planet that was so powerful it was literally ravaging it. I have Bane taking that due to his superior showings in the areas that more frequently decide the outcomes of combat involving Force Users.

I think any combination of two of the Banes and we have a really interesting fight.

It does to an extent- Krayt was missing an arm and eye in Beyond because he was missing them in life. Force matters more there, but they still moved like they were in bodies and K was literally fighting one-handed.

Still, for 'strength outside of Beyond Shadows' there's 'drove Cade to his knees' in their first duel. Krayt is big and strong and overpowering.




How is DoE on his own supposed to deal with Nihl, Talon, and Wyyrlok?

Because you're asking 2 sith to rush 5, and those five are all going to be throwing offense, they aren't just going to stand there. Wyyrlok's stronger than PoD by himself.

I also think you underestimate Maladi and even Stryfe to an extent. Maladi's main combat feat is holding off Shado Vao for a significant period of time, after all, in order to get her Bane'd really have to focus on her hard.

Stryfe's not a total slouch either, 'weakest of the inner circle' still means he TK grips hearts, mutual kills with Wolf Sazen in sabers, and survived some grenade blasts.


DoE could potentially survive such a foolheardy rush, but PoD is supposed to rush down one foe and take attacks from multiple Hands at the same time? Or worse, Wyyrlok? Nah, he's gone in such an attack.


Heck, worst-case. The two rush, Wyyrlok blocks DoE and takes him head on preventing him from cutting down one of the weak. Path of Destruction is left trying to 'blitz' everyone else on his own. Four-on-PoD dogpile.

Your scenario pretty much overlooks what Wyyrlok is doing while the Banes are attacking. He's either going to be confronting DoE or ganking PoD. There's no third option.





Almost all of them have been established as being able to give Cade some fight, and working together against a stronger foe is also in their training.

And PoD Bane isn't on the tier as his later versions either.

While the stronger Banes could take any of them one-on-one pretty fast, there is a sizable difference between one on one and 4-on-1, and there is one higher tier One Sith for each of the stronger Banes anyway.

I'm not sure what makes you think that Wyyrlok's anywhere near Zannah's level in sorcery. Zannah's arguably the most naturally powerful Force User in the mythos, barring Anakin, and had a specific talent for sorcery. Being able to fell Bane with it is a reflection of her power, not anything else.

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
I'm not sure what makes you think that Wyyrlok's anywhere near Zannah's level in sorcery. Zannah's arguably the most naturally powerful Force User in the mythos, barring Anakin, and had a specific talent for sorcery. Being able to fell Bane with it is a reflection of her power, not anything else.


Wyyrlok's an incredibly powerful sorcerer. Darth Andeddu was an legendary Sith sorcerer, feared by his rivals who would not even face him one on one, and heck, with knowledge coveted by Zannah and Bane. Wyyrlok flat overwhelmed him in a pure sorcery duel when Andeddu had a sorcery staff.

Cripple a foe with their own fears (just as Zannah did) or hurt, even kill with solid illusions. Wyyrlok's done both, and Zannah hasn't done the latter, though she does have dark side tendrils.


And it's not even 'just' Wyyrlok on his own. It's Wyyrlok plus a backup unless PoD's being killed in a 4-on-1.

Wyyrlok overpowered Andeddu, but this is not a feat Bane is lacking.

I think you're reading too far into the Andeddu feat. While a "legend" he's still a completely unknown quantity, and I maintain that we can't be certain the Andeddu Wyyrlock faced was definitely as powerful as had once been.

Zannah's level of power by comparison is far more quantifiable, and we know for a fact that she's an incredibly powerful Force User.

Orbelisk Armored Bane can take on 3 of Krayts possy at once. He will kill atleast 2 before he falls if not kill all three of them. PoD Bane was a skilled enough duelist to beat Kas'im and could create force waves that crumbled a temple. You can call amp on that one if you want but even if you down grade it, its still implies a lot of raw power. DoE Bane I consider to be another tier above Krayt, Krayt would put up a good fight but he would fall. And if Orbalisk Bane falls then PoD bane only has to finish off one last opponent and I think he can 1v1 any of Krayts Possy.

All that said Krayt and friends still have a solid chance of just over running them completely

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
I think you're reading too far into the Andeddu feat. While a "legend" he's still a completely unknown quantity, and I maintain that we can't be certain the Andeddu Wyyrlock faced was definitely as powerful as had once been.

Zannah's level of power by comparison is far more quantifiable, and we know for a fact that she's an incredibly powerful Force User.

Sith of the time feared to take him on without ganging up, respected by Bane, Dooku, etc.. One of the only sorcerers capable of killing with illusion alone.

And beating him is not the end-all of Wyyrlok's feats. Wyyrlok knows the illusion technique Zannah almost *did* get Bane with, and Bane only break free with great effort.... but it's not one on one, spending effort to break free means getting a lightsaber while struggling.

Zannah better, Wyyrlok better? Doesn't really matter who's got the precise sorcery edge. Some of their techniques are different, some are the same. And of the ones that are the same.... Wyyrlok has moves that will be fatal to a Bane in this fight.




Depends a lot on the three. Either Krayt or Wyyrlok could certainly hold him off on their own until other fights are decided, to just go the conservative route.



Ahh.... Krayt has more force techniques and more force knowledge than him, as well as more dueling experience. Don't really see how Bane's supposed to have an advantage, let alone a full tier advantage.


Remember the Abeloth fight? Krayt's power is much stronger than that at his peak.

He's someone who was able to batter down Cade when he was handicapped, a shadow of his old self. And who returned, in his words, with his power multiplied. And, in turn, Wyyrlok was able to put up a fight against that.



Just because they have numbers here, isn't a reason to underestimate the One Sith individually. They have some very powerful members here.

Originally posted by Q99

Ahh.... Krayt has more force techniques and more force knowledge than him, as well as more dueling experience. Don't really see how Bane's supposed to have an advantage, let alone a full tier advantage.


Remember the Abeloth fight? Krayt's power is much stronger than that at his peak.


I like how this one guy explained Bane. "If knowledge of the force was equal to an education, Bane would be a professor that takes the others to school"

But seriously though, Banes lightning is by far more impressive than Krayts. His TK is also nothing to thumb your nose at. He has one of the best speed feats in the mythos. Hes also one of the greatest lightsaber duelist to ever exist. Lightning Cacoons, Death Fields, Beast control, Essence Transfer, Also one of the highest pain thresh holds in the mythos. Seriously Bane has made pain his *****. Krayt is a juggernaut of the dark side but Bane is a demi-god

RoT Bane vs Krayt = I'd go Bane.

DoE Bane vs Wryylok + 1 or 2 others = I'd still choose Bane here.

PoD Bane vs the rest = Bane still has a good shot here imo. Even as of PoD Bane is a beast.

What I'm suggesting is that the difference might not be very precise at all. Again, Zannah is far more proven, to the point where she's established to be even more powerful than Bane in the novels. Wyyrlock hasn't got anywhere near that level of backing for his power or abilities. That Zannah, someone with more raw power than Bane, defeated Bane with sorcery, and that you like the idea that Zannah and Wyyrlock are comparable powerful sorcerers, is not enough reason to claim that Wyyrlock would threaten Bane with sorcery. There is nothing concrete that puts Wyyrlock, or Andeddu, on a level even close to Zannah or Bane in raw power or ability.

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
What I'm suggesting is that the difference might not be very precise at all. Again, Zannah is far more proven, to the point where she's established to be even more powerful than Bane in the novels. Wyyrlock hasn't got anywhere near that level of backing for his power or abilities. That Zannah, someone with more raw power than Bane, defeated Bane with sorcery, and that you like the idea that Zannah and Wyyrlock are comparable powerful sorcerers, is not enough reason to claim that Wyyrlock would threaten Bane with sorcery. There is nothing concrete that puts Wyyrlock, or Andeddu, on a level even close to Zannah or Bane in raw power or ability.
I'd like to point out that Wyyrlok hasn't been shown wielding the ability that beat Bane. Bane actually overcame Zannah's illusions. Zannah was good enough to casually and instantly send exceptional force wielders into comas with one of her weaker spells.

Originally posted by WildBantha88
I like how this one guy explained Bane. "If knowledge of the force was equal to an education, Bane would be a professor that takes the others to school"

Sure, and Krayt's a dean who's studied all the professor's works and more.

Bane's Isaac Newton. Krayt's Stephen Hawkings.




And Krayt's energy absorption is more impressive than Bane's.



Krayt's not exactly unequipped to deal with that either.



Krayt has one of the best blitz feats ever.



Force drain, tutaminis, shatterpoint, essence transfer, dark transfer.



Krayt made death his.



Bane is someone who made an order knowing he wasn't the ultimate and others would surpass him by building upon his knowledge.

Krayt is someone who spent over a century gathering all the knowledge that came before to make himself and his order as strong as possible, building up based on what came before, and underwent a transformative experience that gave insight from a place Bane had never seen and which left him changed and more powerful.

Original Recipe Krayt may have been a juggernaut, but Reborn is closer to a god than Bane.


Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
What I'm suggesting is that the difference might not be very precise at all. Again, Zannah is far more proven, to the point where she's established to be even more powerful than Bane in the novels.


Zannah's proven against one foe with sorcery (in the fight vs the strike team, she didn't use it).

Wyyrlok, two (Andeddu and Krayt).

That speaks otherwise to me.


I think personal familiarity is trumping who's actually done more.





Based on.... what? He stomped Andeddu in a power contest when Andeddu was using an amplifier and he wasn't, shattering the force crystal in the struggle.

He almost got Krayt in Krayt's strongest form, and Reborn Krayt's oozing with raw power. Even non-reborn was noted to have a ton, it's where all his power Beyond Shadows came from.


Wyyrlok's a badass who gave Krayt at his top a hard fight, and Reborn Krayt's raw power likely surpasses Bane's peak.



I'd like to point out that Wyyrlok hasn't been shown wielding the ability that beat Bane. Bane actually overcame Zannah's illusions.


And I'll note two things. One, Zannah's illusions don't cause physical harm like Wyyrlok's or even Andeddu's do.

Two, Bane had to struggle to do so. Do you think he could've stopped lightning at the same time? Or a lightsaber? If it'd been two on one, things would've ended then.

Mind you, sorcery isn't his only means of holding off Bane, he's a strong duelist too.



Wyyrlok flat-out killed a living/undead legendary sorcerer from a time full of sorcerers with illusion-sorcery alone.

The exceptional force wielders Zannah killed were from a time when everyone but Zannah and her master were behind the curve in force knowledge and where almost no-one else had sorcery knowledge.

The only opponent she ever faced who had good sorcery defense was Bane.

When have Wyyrlok's illusions caused physical harm?

Originally posted by Emperordmb
When have Wyyrlok's illusions caused physical harm?

Physical in the sense that 'the mind makes it real'. Andeddu was slain by Wyyrlok's illusionary lava. Andeddu's illusions could make someone experience wounds, and his were weaker.

Nah, not even close. Bane's demonstration of Tutaminis during the Brotherhood's attack on Ruusan is the finest in the mythos, given that he was absorbing a magnitude of energy that was detroying the entire planet.



But he hasn't dealt with one on Bane's level before, or one even close (nor has he with lightning).



We don't even know if that was a speed blitz, its up to interpretation. Still impressive but Bane's regularly displayed blitz worthy speed against more impressive opponents, and has basically done the strength equivalent, where his strikes are so powerful that his foe can't even adequately defend a single attack (Farfalla in ROT, getting disarmed by Bane's first blow due to the sheer impact of it). Not to mention he's displayed a far greater level of technical proficiency with the blade.

In terms of TK, lightning, and lightsaber prowess, Krayt isn't anywhere near Bane.



Not specifically from a combat or personal power in the darkside perspective,



The difference is that Andeddu is a virtual unknown and Krayt simply not on Bane's level. Wyrrlock has demonstrated effective sorcery against a single person extra than Zannah, but Zannah has successfully demonstrated it on someone far more powerful.

Plus it's pretty easy to extrapolate from Zannah's raw power (confirmed as being significantly beyond Bane's, and clear insane from her untrained demonstrations of power when she was an 8 year old girl, where she dd everything from killing Jedi with the Force, to protecting a small settlement of Bouncers from the BOD's storm, an attack that was literally consuming everything in its path) and the fact that sorcery was her specialty, that she would have been an incredibly powerful sorcerer.

Certainly she should be considered to be on a level, that being susceptible to her sorcery shouldn't be a mark against you, nor should it probably make you just as susceptible to other sorcerers that you can't accurately and quantifiably compare her to.



And as I stated earlier, spirits are rarely as powerful as their living counterparts, and nothing in the comic suggest that this was anything different.

By the looks of it, Ancient Sith for the most part relied on these power amplifiers and would wield them at all times. Everything that we know about Andeddu, and his "legendary power", would not be dealing with Andeddu's power in isolation, but the power he had at his command at any given moment, which would include his sceptor. Thus, I don't see why it's relevant that he had a power amp, when you're basing the impressiveness of the feat off of a reputation Andeddu garnered with the assistance of such amps.



That doesn't make it phsyical lol. They simply had a battle of illusions that took place on a purely mental realm, where things would have felt real and done real damage, but purely from a mental standpoint. The only reason Andeddu was slain by it was, and as Wyyrlock said, "Your Power is in the mind! Your mind forces your body to obey even though dead!" Andeddu was already physically dead, and what Wyyrlock's illusion did were "kill" his mind, where it was no longer able to control its body (Star Wars: Legacy v1 #27, page 17).

Just a reminder:

If a Bane is hit by Nihl's lightning, dead. Strong enough to kill a Grand Master in short order.


If the Banes ignore Stryfe, he'll grab one of their hearts and kill them, dead.



Every last Sith here is a threat, not just Krayt and Wyyrlok, even if they are the two strongest.

Hitting almost anyone unprotected ad unsuspecting with lightning is death. Nihl won't be catching anyone off guard here.

Er, grab their hearts? Temple of Doom style?

Any of these Banes are quite above the lesser Sith. Even PoD Bane was disintegrating people with his lightning, moving extremely fast, tearing through Force barriers like paper and has other great feats.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Any of these Banes are quite above the lesser Sith.
Agreed

Originally posted by Q99
If a Bane is hit by Nihl's lightning, dead. Strong enough to kill a Grand Master in short order.
Bane's lightning that ****ed the orbalisks up was powerful enough to disintegrate people, and he was trapped in a sphere of it. I'm pretty sure an exhausted Kol couldn't tank five force pikes set to kill at once either, but Bane could. Bane's lightning is considerably above Nihl's

Originally posted by Q99
If the Banes ignore Stryfe, he'll grab one of their hearts and kill them, dead.
The thought that Stryfe could kill any version of Bane with TK is amusing. Stryfe isn't powerful enough to break his force shield.


Originally posted by Q99
Every last Sith here is a threat, not just Krayt and Wyyrlok, even if they are the two strongest.
Nihl is the third strongest on Krayt's team and he's still considerably below Bane. Krayt's hands are not on par with Bane.

Stryfe was fodderised by Wyyrloks daughter, he'll be fodder to Bane too.

Anyway, if its a question of TK Bane keeps up a constant Force barrier that Stryfe has no hope of breaking through.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Hitting almost anyone unprotected ad unsuspecting with lightning is death. Nihl won't be catching anyone off guard here.

Because everyone here will be focusing on Nihl and not one or two other foes?

It's impressive, how each Bane can do so much at once. Fight Krayt or Wyyrlok *and* block lightning to the back without missing a beat, eh?




Vaguely, yea. Squeeze their heart in their chests with telekinesis.





Yea, in an era known for weakness.

Put Stryfe in the Sith Academy at the time and he'd easily be one of the most powerful students and probably Bane's new rival.




Just out of a bacta tank due to being hit by multiple grenades, sure. And one on one, sure.



Isn't it amazing how in a 6 on 3 Banes can so consistently get one-on-one matchups with the weakest One Sith? No worries about Wyyrlo slapping him with his greatest fear while he's done so, or Nihl and Maladi doubling up on lightning and breaking through a force barrier. If a One Sith isn't who a Bane wants to fight, they'll just sit back and wait.


Very convenient for them.


Why, one would even go as far to say that if a Bane took on Stryfe one on one, there'd be no worry about any of the other posse members taking advantage at all, even though they're all powerful masters with dangerous abilities.

It's also not like multiple force users working together have ever combined forces to pose a much greater threat to Bane than they would otherwise *coughJediStrikeTeamvsBaneandZannahinRoT*.


Hey, here's another scenario: Krayt fights RoT and PoD at the same time, holds them both up.

5-on-1 beatdown on DoE. DoE dies in 5 seconds as he's hit by illusions, lightning from multiple sources, any lightning he tosses out absorbed or blocked, and his heart grabbed all at the same time.


One Sith slaughterhouse that one, and it's more plausible than the 'Banes get to always go one on one without anyone ever hitting them from the back,' situations.


In order to think that Banes don't have to worry about quantities of master sith, you pretty much gotta ignore his own fights.

Originally posted by Q99
Because everyone here will be focusing on Nihl and not one or two other foes?

It's impressive, how each Bane can do so much at once. Fight Krayt or Wyyrlok *and* block lightning to the back without missing a beat, eh?

Because the Banes are just going to not focus on or engage Nihl at all and give him totally free reign?

If only they had this thing called precognition, Or some sort of extra-sensory perception.

Originally posted by Q99
Vaguely, yea. Squeeze their heart in their chests with telekinesis.

Lol, good luck with that.

Originally posted by Q99
Yea, in an era known for weakness.

Put Stryfe in the Sith Academy at the time and he'd easily be one of the most powerful students and probably Bane's new rival.

An era with many strong Sith nonetheless. And I was referring to the One Sith mooks in this thread, not the Brotherhood guys.

And Bane was able to easily defeat his rival and his mooks by the end of his academy days. By the end of PoD he'd utterly eclipsed Sirak. Just like he utterly eclipses Stryfe. He'll one-shot the guy with the Force. Numbers is the only thing keeping this guy alive.

Originally posted by Q99
Isn't it amazing how in a 6 on 3 Banes can so consistently get one-on-one matchups with the weakest One Sith? No worries about Wyyrlo slapping him with his greatest fear while he's done so, or Nihl and Maladi doubling up on lightning and breaking through a force barrier. If a One Sith isn't who a Bane wants to fight, they'll just sit back and wait.

Who said anything about one on one? I'm talking about a 3 on 1 engagement. I am saying that even with PoD/DoE Bane fighting 2 others at once Stryfe is not breaking through Banes auto-defenses.

Considering Krayt and Maladi couldn't break through Morne/Murr's Force defenses, I'm not seeing Nihl and Maladi breaking through Banes defenses either.

Originally posted by Q99
Why, one would even go as far to say that if a Bane took on Stryfe one on one, there'd be no worry about any of the other posse members taking advantage at all, even though they're all powerful masters with dangerous abilities.

If Bane was in a position to fight Stryfe one on one there would be no opportunity for anyone to take advantage because the fight would last about 2 seconds.

Originally posted by Q99
It's also not like multiple force users working together have ever combined forces to pose a much greater threat to Bane than they would otherwise *coughJediStrikeTeamvsBaneandZannahinRoT*.

Who were only a threat because of Battle Meditation. And because Zannah was half-trained.

Originally posted by Q99
Hey, here's another scenario: Krayt fights RoT and PoD at the same time, holds them both up.

5-on-1 beatdown on DoE. DoE dies in 5 seconds as he's hit by illusions, lightning from multiple sources, any lightning he tosses out absorbed or blocked, and his heart grabbed all at the same time.


One Sith slaughterhouse that one, and it's more plausible than the 'Banes get to always go one on one without anyone ever hitting them from the back,' situations.


In order to think that Banes don't have to worry about quantities of master sith, you pretty much gotta ignore his own fights.



I'm still talking about this from my previous match ups.

RoT Bane vs Krayt.

DoE Bane vs Wyyrlok and 1 or 2 others

PoD Bane vs the rest.

This seems like the most sensible match ups to me.

Now this isn't even an era thing, it's a 'how multi-on-one fights work in SW' thing!



I thought he was focusing on Stryfe? If he's focusing on Stryfe, then he's not focusing as fully on Nihl.

Or is he focusing on defending against Nihl? Then he's not fully focusing on Stryfe.



Yea, if only Nihl had, say, allies so that Bane has to deal with pre-coging about 3 times as much stuff as Nihl does just to survive.

And if only they had precognition or extra-sensory perception too...


Let's remember, the Jedi who were pushing Bane *hard* in RoT lost when one of their number unexpectedly was attacked, which allowed Zannah to unexpectedly kill Lsu. Bane also got hit strongly by Johun because he had too many things to deal with from his foes, even when Johun was an incompetent not fit to shine Stryfe's shoes and who was a hinderance to every ally who wasn't Raskta Lsu.

And that's not just some random examples- that's RoT Bane, who managed to get hit by Johun Othone who was so lousy he was consider a minus in a lightsaber duel vs Zannah. That's the power numbers gave.

Multi-way battles get busy and require more focus than even a Jedi and Sith has at times, as shown by the troubles all sides had in Bane's biggest fight.




Lemme count it out. One, Talon TK, two, Nihl lightning.

Seems like plenty of time. They have precognition, after all, they can sense openings.

Why would two masters stand there for multiple seconds? You're underestimating the impact of number and how much standing around is done.



There are no mooks in this thread.

Every last sith here is above Sirak.



See, Stryfe actually blocked Cade's TK for a bit, and he did his heart-grab thing *after* his heart had already been TK grabbed. He's not that easy to take out when he's healthy, and not even a force pushover when he's getting out of medical.

There's a fallacious assumption being made here, that 'weakest of the Hands' is synonymous with 'weak.' Maul's weakest of Sidious's apprentices. Savage Opress is weaker still. And Savage was quite useful against Palpatine who's >> PoD Bane.

Savage, one-on-one, lasted over 15 seconds against Darth Sidious, and when it was two on one, the pair weren't even at a disadvantage. And that's just a pair. Here we've got three on one.

You are seriously overestimating how quickly a moderately-stronger person can take out a weaker one... and PoD Bane is no Darth Sidious.






Agreed.

Which is why all of this talk of Bane getting multiple seconds to focus on individuals covered in 'the rest' doesn't fit.


3 on 1 and he just-happens to have all that time? Once you're in a two-on-one, the only way you get multiple seconds to deal with someone is if one of the fighters is wounded and needs recover, or if you really split them up in the force.

That's how it works with two-on-ones in the movies and in TCW, and 3 on 1 is like that but more. It means Bane can push or throw someone and he still has two to deal with, still not giving a one-on-one situation.

And there's still the possibility of someone from another fight changing focus when they spot an advantage. Wyyrlok is temporarily locked with DoE and PoD's back is facing Maladi while PoD is fencing with Talon and Nihl? Maladi will give a blast of her lightning into that fight.


Oh, hey, let's talk about using the force to separate people, like Sidious did vs Opress and Maul. PoD Bane force-throws Stryfe and knocks him away from the others! He leaps after Stryfe to finish the job before he can recover any other OS can help! Nihl and Talon immediately turn and add their power to Wyyrlok and Maladi vs DoE. Temporarily a 4-on-1, DoE Bane's force power is utterly overwhelmed.

Five seconds later Stryfe is maybe finished, DoE definitely is, and now PoD Bane has to deal with Wyyrlok, Nihl, Talon, and Maladi. Good trade?

Originally posted by Q99
I thought he was focusing on Stryfe? If he's focusing on Stryfe, then he's not focusing as fully on Nihl.

Or is he focusing on defending against Nihl? Then he's not fully focusing on Stryfe.

I clarified later in my post that I'm talking about Bane taking on multiple opponents. What I mean is that he would be focusing on Nihl, while focusing on his other foes too. It is possible to engage 3 opponents at once. As you pointed out he's down it before.

He can focus on both, bro. Just like Dooku can focus on Anakin and Obi-Wan and Revan and Malgus can focus on 4 opponents at once.


Originally posted by Q99
Yea, if only Nihl had, say, allies so that Bane has to deal with pre-coging about 3 times as much stuff as Nihl does just to survive.

And if only they had precognition or extra-sensory perception too...

Just to survive? If anything they'd be hard pressed to hold him off together.

Nothing I said implied otherwise.


Originally posted by Q99
Let's remember, the Jedi who were pushing Bane *hard* in RoT lost when one of their number unexpectedly was attacked, which allowed Zannah to unexpectedly kill Lsu. Bane also got hit strongly by Johun because he had too many things to deal with from his foes, even when Johun was an incompetent not fit to shine Stryfe's shoes and who was a hinderance to every ally who wasn't Raskta Lsu.

And that's not just some random examples- that's RoT Bane, who managed to get hit by Johun Othone who was so lousy he was consider a minus in a lightsaber duel vs Zannah. That's the power numbers gave.

Multi-way battles get busy and require more focus than even a Jedi and Sith has at times, as shown by the troubles all sides had in Bane's biggest fight.

With Battle Meditation strengthening them and weakening Bane. With Battle Meditation even Johun is equal to a turd like Stryfe.

And it was a testament to Lsu's skill that she turned him into a positive.

Originally posted by Q99
Lemme count it out. One, Talon TK, two, Nihl lightning.

Seems like plenty of time. They have precognition, after all, they can sense openings.

Why would two masters stand there for multiple seconds? You're underestimating the impact of number and how much standing around is done.

One, Bane raises his hand and fries Stryfe with lightning. Two, he defends against Talon and Nihl's attacks.

I didn't suggest they would just stand there. I suggested that the fight would be over by the time they tried to help.

Originally posted by Q99
There are no mooks in this thread.

Every last sith here is above Sirak.

Sirak is a mook to Bane.

Originally posted by Q99
See, Stryfe actually blocked Cade's TK for a bit, and he did his heart-grab thing *after* his heart had already been TK grabbed. He's not that easy to take out when he's healthy, and not even a force pushover when he's getting out of medical.

There's a fallacious assumption being made here, that 'weakest of the Hands' is synonymous with 'weak.' Maul's weakest of Sidious's apprentices. Savage Opress is weaker still. And Savage was quite useful against Palpatine who's >> PoD Bane.

Savage, one-on-one, lasted over 15 seconds against Darth Sidious, and when it was two on one, the pair weren't even at a disadvantage. And that's just a pair. Here we've got three on one.

You are seriously overestimating how quickly a moderately-stronger person can take out a weaker one... and PoD Bane is no Darth Sidious.

If Wyyrlok's daughter can Force pwn him, Bane can.

I'm not suggesting they're weak. I'm suggesting Bane is strong. Theres a difference.

Savage didn't last 1 second against a serious Sidious. Palpatine plastered him to a window along with his brother whilst giggling like the loon he is. Its only because Sidious allowed him to that Savage stood longer than that.

Originally posted by Q99
Agreed.

Which is why all of this talk of Bane getting multiple seconds to focus on individuals covered in 'the rest' doesn't fit.

I've never suggested he does. You're the one who suggested a Bane vs Stryfe one on one. You're the only one talking about Bane vs individuals here.

Originally posted by Q99
And there's still the possibility of someone from another fight changing focus when they spot an advantage. Wyyrlok is temporarily locked with DoE and PoD's back is facing Maladi while PoD is fencing with Talon and Nihl? Maladi will give a blast of her lightning into that fight.

To be honest I would be surprised if Maladi wasn't blitzed by DoE Bane. Or whomever else he was fighting alongside Wyyrlok.

Originally posted by Q99
Oh, hey, let's talk about using the force to separate people, like Sidious did vs Opress and Maul. PoD Bane force-throws Stryfe and knocks him away from the others! He leaps after Stryfe to finish the job before he can recover any other OS can help! Nihl and Talon immediately turn and add their power to Wyyrlok and Maladi vs DoE. Temporarily a 4-on-1, DoE Bane's force power is utterly overwhelmed.

Five seconds later Stryfe is maybe finished, DoE definitely is, and now PoD Bane has to deal with Wyyrlok, Nihl, Talon, and Maladi. Good trade?

You're mixing this up. People throw others away so that they can focus on the opponents still standing. Sidious smacked Maul away and killed Savage while he was out of the fight. If Bane used the Force to toss Stryfe from the fight, he would turn and engage Nihl and Talon, using the improved numbers to his advantage and potentially overwhelming one or both of them before Stryfe rejoins the fight.

Q99 seems to forget that there were a dozen Sith blasting Kol at the same time. Nihl was only one of them,

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Q99 seems to forget that there were a dozen Sith blasting Kol at the same time. Nihl was only one of them.


No, there was only one other shown hitting, and joining in after Nihl had already hit him enough to make him let go of his saber.




Battle Meditation isn't that strong, and Stryfe is actually a powerful and skilled duelist. He's never been a liability.



That was against two duelists, though.

This is three. Nihl's his highest priority. Talon is skilled and deadly herself and another serious threat. And Darth Stryfe is still a skilled master level duelist who's no chump like Johun who managed to not get brushed aside anyway.


And RoT Bane got a wrist-hit from Johun. Were it not for Orbalisk armor, he'd be down a hand.



One, Bane raises his hand and fires lightning and Talon and Stryfe *also* fire lightning. Two, Nihl attacks with his saber. Three, Talon and Stryfe continue firing lightning, making Bane have to heavily split his focus.

You're still having fast characters wait around for no reason.

Or one, Bane fires lightning at Stryfe and Nihl fires lightning at Bane. Two, Bane, out of hands because he's both actively lightning-ing and blocking lightning, gets stabbed by Talon.


This is three-on-one. They have more actions than Bane does.



Not in sabers, and Sidious caught them off guard with the initial push.

And this is three on one.

If Bane did that here, then the third one would stab him in the face.


Sidious couldn't have done that if he was fighting three Savages. It'd leave him open.


Enough with the arguments that rely on it being no more than two-on-one.

Originally posted by Q99
No, there was only one other shown hitting, and joining in after Nihl had already hit him enough to make him let go of his saber.
Lightning powerful enough to make someone drop their saber when they're hit is not overly impressive




Originally posted by Q99 Battle Meditation isn't that strong, and Stryfe is actually a powerful and skilled duelist. He's never been a liability.
Battle Meditation has the potential to change the course of large scale battles by a considerable amount, and this is Battle Meditation being concentrated into a handful of people.



Originally posted by Q99 That was against two duelists, though.
Lsu, Farfalla, and Othone make three. And they were all severely amped by BM.


Originally posted by Q99 This is three. Nihl's his highest priority. Talon is skilled and deadly herself and another serious threat. And Darth Stryfe is still a skilled master level duelist who's no chump like Johun who managed to not get brushed aside anyway.
Again he and his team were all amped by BM.

Originally posted by Q99 And RoT Bane got a wrist-hit from Johun. Were it not for Orbalisk armor, he'd be down a hand.
Were it not for Battle Meditation, he wouldn't have been able to score that hit in the first place. Bane also wasn't making an effort to defend anything but his face.

Interesting you didn't have this stance in the 30 Sith Warriors vs Jedi Council thread regarding the advantage of sheer numbers, Q.



The novel makes it clear that he formed a high offence, minimal defence style due to the benefits that the orbalisks provided. That Johun landed a hit is far more of a reflection on the fact that Bane doesn't really need to defend himself as much as regular combatants do.

And this wasn't regular Johun, this was:

a) BM enhanced Johun

b) a Johun who was more an extension of Raskta Lsu's assualt than an individual combatant. The novel states that Raskta was so skilled that she was able to seamlessly enhance and complement Farfalla and Johun's attacks with her own to create a sort of miltifaceted meta attack on the Sith Lord. Just think of it like this, if you were to look at someone using Jar'Kai, but focused specifically on one of the lightsabers, its attacks would seem random and poorly thoguht out, but its in the manner in which both lightsabers interact into one style that it becomes effective. This is basically what raskta was doing by coordinating her attacks with Farfalla's and Johun's.



It was described as being a pretty extraordinary boost, was directly stated to have saved the Jedi's lives at multiple points in the duel, and was presumably the source of their incredible display of teamwork and high levels of skill and power (Raskta's blinding speed for instance).

Indeed, good point.

Something else to consider is that the Jedi team against Bane also legitimately cared for eachother while Krayt's hands are bitter rivals. I imagine this would effect team work and coordination, especially in the absence of BM