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I have them roughly on the same level, someone persuade me one way or another.

Reborn Krayt vs Darth Malgus
Bloodlusted; 5 meters apart; no Essence Transfer

IMO Malgus is Krayts superior in all known respects barring telepathy/resistance and Dark Transfer.

But given how many injuries Malgus has, I could see him going down to the latter.

Reborn Krayt has a plethora of powers that were never shown. His dismantling of Cade and defeat of Wyyrlok indicates a tremendous amount of skill. I don't believe Cade should've beaten him. So he may very well defeat Malgus in the 2nd round. I don't know I could be persuaded on either side, as when Malgus achieved oneness he was powerful as well.

I am tempted to vote in favor of Krayt.

Originally posted by carthage
Reborn Krayt has a plethora of powers that were never shown. His dismantling of Cade and defeat of Wyyrlok indicates a tremendous amount of skill. I don't believe Cade should've beaten him. So he may very well defeat Malgus in the 2nd round. I don't know I could be persuaded on either side, as when Malgus achieved oneness he was powerful as well.
Wyyrlok isn't a good saber feat for Krayt. Neither of them outdueled eachother and that's Wyyrlok's only feat as a duelist.

I give it to Krayt.

Let's examine some other statements- Wyyrlok felt that if Krayt was the Krayt of old at his full strength, he wouldn't even have died in the Vector incident.

Upon his return, he noted his power was multiplied by his experience passing through death. He even gained whole new abilities, not just dark transfer but also shatterpoint. (And I will note, pretty much the only other sith to do similar have *also* experienced noticeable power boosts, like DE Palpatine)


I do think people still underestimate Legacy and RebornKrayt specifically some- though not nearly as much as they used to, admittedly. I just want to emphasize that final Krayt is supposed to blow the Krayt that took out 4 Imperial Knights in moments and was so strong in the Vector fight out of the water.

Krayt impressed me more in FOTJ than in Legacy tbh.

I attribute DE Palpatine's power boost mainly to the billions of people he was draining energy from on Byss.

He was draining them before his death too, though.


No-one is denying that Krayt is very powerful, he and Malgus are on the same tier in my eyes, but tbh I consider Malgus to be the very strongest one on that tier, below the Vitiate, Bane, Yoda, Hord, Sidious, HoT, Nihilus, Plagueis tier.

Yoda and Nihilus are not in the same tier Neph.

Yes, they are.

It's the top tier though. Its hard to get a tier above it.

Hord and Bane aren't top tier.

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
Yoda and Nihilus are not in the same tier Neph.
If Nihilus is not on Yoda's, he is without a doubt the one right below.
I suggest reading my Nihilus Respect Thread in my signature (I updated it today).

Astor means that Nihilus is a tier above Yoda.

Astor means that Nihilus is many tiers above Yoda.

That's implying Nihilus>Sidious, which is against every canon law established.

There is some merit to the opinion, Nihilus is rather godlike in many ways.

True.
Then again, many do not classify Nihilus as Sith.
However then again, Vitiate is stated to be more powerful then Nihilus, yet Sidious>Vitiate.

Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord ever. But you can't really expect otherwise when no one gives a shit about any other Sith Lord besides him and Vader.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
True.
Then again, many do not classify Nihilus as Sith.
However then again, Vitiate is stated to be more powerful then Nihilus, yet Sidious>Vitiate.

I personally ignore such statements. I prefer to judge characters myself.

If there is a difference in power as you outline, it is by a degree of millimeters.

Originally posted by imwithstupid
Astor means that Nihilus is a tier above Yoda.

Incorrect, *****.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Astor means that Nihilus is many tiers above Yoda.

What characters are you comparing?

You talking to me?

Yes.

Reported.

Sidious>Vitiate>Nihilus. Even if that is the correct order of power, its by such a slim margin as to be inconsequential.

Also, don't report him. Its cool.

Sidious>Vitiate=>Nihilus is more appropriate.
I take it KMC are not familiar with => symbols?

K.

Don't be a fool, Ant.

Your => was taken from SWF's old >= which was taken from KMC's >/=.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Krayt impressed me more in FOTJ than in Legacy tbh.

And here's the thing: Fate of the Jedi Krayt is stronger than Krayt for 80% of Legacy. Without a doubt.

Krayt from FotJ had his symbionts- which enhanced him physically- but they had not yet grown to the point to hamper him otherwise.

Krayt from Legacy had them eating at him for decades more, hurting his endurance and reducing his force powers because he had to spend constant effort just to fight them.

But Reborn Krayt? Not only was he healthy again like back in FotJ, not only did he have new abilities he grasped when experiences death, but he'd had the 'weight training' of 80 years of constant effort that could now be put into play.

He accomplished something with the force that hadn't been done before, that FotJ Krayt didn't have the ability to but he did.



Originally posted by Nephthys
He was draining them before his death too, though.


No-one is denying that Krayt is very powerful, he and Malgus are on the same tier in my eyes, but tbh I consider Malgus to be the very strongest one on that tier, below the Vitiate, Bane, Yoda, Hord, Sidious, HoT, Nihilus, Plagueis tier.


See, I don't put Bane in that tier, I put him in the Malgus tier, and only with his orbalisks do I put him around the top of it.


Part of Bane's whole thing was he was surpassable and he knew it. He had very high potential, which allowed him to accomplish a lot in one lifetime, but Bane knew he was not the pinnacle, that he couldn't reconstruct the peaks of force knowledge in one lifetime, that more than what he had was necessarily for his plan.

I do not think that if you asked Bane himself that he'd put himself above Revan or Malgus.

And yet Banes raw capabilities speak for themselves. Top tier lightning, top tier speed, (near)top tier TK, extreme mental resistance, mighty strength, profound Force knowledge.

Bane considered himself surpassable, yes, yet in the case of his successors, Zannah was his notable inferior in combat and Cognus was notable for her unique abilities, not her raw Force strength.

Realistically, the very top tier would include Nihilus, DE Sidious, and The Ones, and maybe others (opinions on Vitiate for example seem to be mixed). Ignoring those characters, I think the top spot would be between Exar Kun and Orbalisk Bane.

Off topic?

Krayt, Bane, Malgus, Maul, Exar Kun, Revan, Kenobi--I'd include them all in the same tier, really. Just below the big guns like Darth Vader, Hero of Tython, etc.

Maul and Kenobi? Lolwut? haermm

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
Opinions on Vitiate for example seem to be mixed.

Vitiate possesses the strongest telepathic abilities in the mythos, able to utterly dominate opponents with his almost infallible will. In this area he is superior to even the Dread Masters, a single one of whom can dominate armies and together can destroy fleets with their mental assaults (the Dread Masters subservience to him is one of the greatest indicators of his power IMO, those guys are ****ing insanely powerful).

He also possesses probably the strongest lightning in the mythos, said to be 'infinitely more powerful' than the lightning of Nyriss, which was strong enough to utterly disintegrate herself despite tearing through a Force Shield. He also casually pwned a group of 4 of the strongest TOR era Jedi at once.

In terms of TK he collapsed a massive temple while so exhausted he could barely stand and so wounded he literally couldn't stand/he had just been killed. And disintegrated a droid.

Vitiate is arguably the most knowledgeable Force User ever given his immense age and highly scholarly personality.

And lastly a prepared Vitiate is the most dominant Force user barring a Nihilus Giga-Drain, twice wiping out the Dark Council by himself, a group made up of the twelve most powerful Sith in his Empire. In one of the instances, he killed them all in a single attack.

Vitiate's lightning was capable of being blocked by Tython's lightsaber and being tanked by a screaming Revan. lol

Sidious' lightning was blocked by Yoda and tanked by Vader and a screaming Marek.

Banes lightning was blocked by Zannah.

I can't think of who else rivals him really.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And yet Banes raw capabilities speak for themselves. Top tier lightning, top tier speed, (near)top tier TK, extreme mental resistance, mighty strength, profound Force knowledge.

And not only do others have those, but there's abilities he didn't really have, not even talking near-unique ones like dark transfer. Tutaminis, for example.

It is those things that put him in Malgus-tier, because, well, that's what one *expects* from those in that tier.


Being good all-around isn't as good as being good all-around *and* having special, unique advantages (which Bane only really had when he has orbalisk). Bane probably didn't have raw strength in the force above Malgus or FateKrayt. Both others are also known for their high physical strength. And so on.


Bane's profound force knowledge is knowledge he himself will admit is less than the ancients, and less than his successors would obtain.



But still superior enough overall to triumph over DoE Bane legitimately. Non-orbalisk Bane was surpassed in his lifetime.

Originally posted by Q99
And not only do others have those, but there's abilities he didn't really have, not even talking near-unique ones like dark transfer. Tutaminis, for example.

It is those things that put him in Malgus-tier, because, well, that's what one *expects* from those in that tier.


Being good all-around isn't as good as being good all-around *and* having special, unique advantages (which Bane only really had when he has orbalisk). Bane probably didn't have raw strength in the force above Malgus or FateKrayt. Both others are also known for their high physical strength. And so on.


Bane's profound force knowledge is knowledge he himself will admit is less than the ancients, and less than his successors would obtain.

Sidious, Vitiate and Nihilus haven't demonstrated Tutaminis either, to my knowledge. I don't know if even Luke has.

Sidious and Yoda lack unique abilities, yet they're so powerful in their core powers that they are top tier combatants, just like Bane. Being excellent all-around is better than being good all-around with a unique ability.

Which doesn't matter when comparing to Krayt and Malgus, since its still better than what those two had access to. Also don't forget that the RoT Sith lost a great portion of their Force knowledge at one point.

Originally posted by Q99
But still superior enough overall to triumph over DoE Bane legitimately. Non-orbalisk Bane was surpassed in his lifetime.

She didn't really. It was only a situational technique that beat him. Which I intensely dislike, but still.

I don't know why people still make that argument. Bane's entire point was that the Sith would never be able to defeat the Jedi via military prowess or via the duelling arts (whether he was right or not, that was his opinion), but rather would have to bide their time, slowly expand their knowledge of the darkside, spread their influence throughout the Galaxy, be patient and wait, for the perfect moment to strike, all the while honing their skills in espionage and manipulation.

His direct successor happened to be more powerful, but that wasn't at all emblematic of how succession in the Rule of Two would be, and her showings of untrained ability with the Force would suggest that her raw power >>>>>>>>>> 99.99999% of Force Users.

Zannah has the best feats of any untrained Force user I can name.

So far we are off topic.
However, I am currently in favor of Krayt from Q99's posts.


>/= is the symbolization of a new beginning, a new start. The > represents the road that KMC will be going into, while the / splits the = which represents no forum can ever go onto that same path. Genius.

>= is the symbolization of the chains of slavery and bullying. The = is, as you suspected, a chain, while the > is yourself trying to go in that same direction, but the chain is stopping you. Represents SWF well.

=> is the symbolization of regardless what struggles you encounter, the light will always be superior. The > is now behind the chain, which holds the significance that the chains no longer strangle the progress, but rather the progress is fighting off the chains. Excellent.

>= symbolizes the chain pulling you in the direction you want to go. => is the chain pulling against you, holding you back.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Maul and Kenobi? Lolwut? haermm


Uh, yeah. Maul has brought down entire baracks with Force Screams, collapsed caves with a gesture, ripped down shuttles, sent dozens of soldiers flying, and crushed hearts with TK by looking. He's moved so fast security cameras couldn't pick him up, he's created webbing tapestries behind his blade, he's appeared to be in multiple places at once, and made time seem to slow. He's a high master of multiple forms, confirmed as one of the most deadly Sith swordsmasters in the Order's history, and has defeated highly hyped Jedi such as Qui-Gon Jinn and Anoon Bondara, and later on even Obi-Wan Kenobi himself. He has probed the minds of telepaths, destroying their minds, he has manipulated gravity, survived 40 meter falls without injury, and can resist the effects of Force Lightning. He even held his ground against Darth Sidious. I'm sorry, but he's really not lacking at all.

As for Kenobi, just look here:

http://www.comicvine.com/profile/shootingnova/blog/obi-wan-kenobi-respect-thread/96476/

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Uh, yeah. Maul has brought down entire baracks with Force Screams,

No, he didn't.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
collapsed caves with a gesture,

Nope.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
ripped down shuttles,

Not really seeing how that puts him on the same tier as Bane and Malgus, lol.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
sent dozens of soldiers flying,

Wrong.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
and crushed hearts with TK by looking.

And Zannah disintegrated an arm without any training at all.

Hell, untrained Bane crushed his fathers heart without looking.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
He's moved so fast security cameras couldn't pick him up,

At night, with no moon, while wearing black and with red and black skin. He could have walked and not been picked up.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
he's created webbing tapestries behind his blade,

Generic.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
he's appeared to be in multiple places at once,

Admittedly good, but not on Banes level.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
and made time seem to slow.

Any superspeed does that. Its called time dilation.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
He's a high master of multiple forms, confirmed as one of the most deadly Sith swordsmasters in the Order's history, and has defeated highly hyped Jedi such as Qui-Gon Jinn and Anoon Bondara, and later on even Obi-Wan Kenobi himself. He has probed the minds of telepaths, destroying their minds, he has manipulated gravity, survived 40 meter falls without injury, and can resist the effects of Force Lightning.

meeeeeeeeeeeh

Originally posted by NewGuy01
He even held his ground against Darth Sidious. I'm sorry, but he's really not lacking at all.

Sidious casually pwned him and his brother at the start of the fight. The only reason he stood his ground was because Sidious chose to drop him to it.

Technically, you're right. Restraint states that if Maul had released the scream that he had held in, the barracks would have collapsed around him.





http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/4/48954/3341550-new+picture+%2844%29.jpg




And yet it's very impressive when Malgus moves his shuttle with a Force Wave.




http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/4/48954/3341546-new+picture+%2837%29.jpg




Nice excuses you're making there.




It's still better than any speed feat Malgus or Exar has.



Even Orbalisk Bane was hard pressed able to keep up with Raskta Lsu when she was moving that fast. I don't see how that's not on his level.



Being called a high level master of multiple forms and one of the best Sith swordsmasters in Sith history is literally all that Kas'im has, and you hold him in extremely high esteem.

Qui-Gon Jinn's feats are no lesser than Ven Zallow's, who pressed Malgus a lot more than Jinn did Maul, to boot. Not to even mention Obi-Wan lol.

And gravity manipulation is boss.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Technically, you're right. Restraint states that if Maul had released the scream that he had held in, the barracks would have collapsed around him.

I know, I read the quote in the Maul vs Leneer thread. He didn't actually do it, thus it is not a feat. It could easily just have been an exaggeration, and I think it was. As I recall, the quote is written from Mauls own perspective. Its no more accurate than Maul thinking that he could solo the Jedi Temple and Council.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/4/48954/3341550-new+picture+%2844%29.jpg

That is neither a cave nor is that a gesture. Orgus Din did better in a real cave.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
And yet it's very impressive when Malgus moves his shuttle with a Force Wave.

Its not particularly notable, no. Although you forgot to mention that Malgus also sent a crowd flying with that Wave too.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/4/48954/3341546-new+picture+%2837%29.jpg

You should have written "Maul and his brother sent dozens of soldiers flying."

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Nice excuses you're making there.

I know, I'm making them.


Originally posted by NewGuy01
It's still better than any speed feat Malgus or Exar has.

About on par, most likely.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Even Orbalisk Bane was hard pressed able to keep up with Raskta Lsu when she was moving that fast. I don't see how that's not on his level.

Lsu was doing so from the perspective of a Jedi Master. Just because the feat was similar doesn't mean that it was the same. Lsu was moving faster than Maul was.

Speaking of, I don't recall anyone actually posting the quote where Maul does this. Could you provide it for me?

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Being called a high level master of multiple forms and one of the best Sith swordsmasters in Sith history is literally all that Kas'im has, and you hold him in extremely high esteem.

Qui-Gon Jinn's feats are no lesser than Ven Zallow's, who pressed Malgus a lot more than Jinn did Maul, to boot. Not to even mention Obi-Wan lol.

And gravity manipulation is boss.

Its more than that. Kas'im mastered all lightsaber forms and varients and then spent decades perfecting and refining each one. His technical mastery is simply on another level.

Malgus improved significantly after his fight with Zallow. Plus I'd put Zallow above Qui-Gon. Zallow was the greatest Jedi in the temple by far, which puts him above even juggernauts like Kellian Jarro, who soloed a hundred veteran Mando's in the battle.

IIRC wasn't it just a really stupidly phrased sentence that made it seem like he was manipulating gravity?