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Does the HoT have the power to stand up to a Full-Power Vitiate?

1. Sabers

2. Force

3. All-Out

1. HoT: Hero stomps this one no question

2. Vitiate: his force powers are more varied and potent

3. Vitiate: he could keep the Hero at a distance with his force powers, and his true body is likely a superior conduit for his power,

Originally posted by Emperordmb
1. HoT: Hero stomps this one no question

2. Vitiate: his force powers are more varied and potent

3. Vitiate: he could keep the Hero at a distance with his force powers, and his true body is likely a superior conduit for his power,

Even if that was not his real body, and I'm of the mind that it actually was and possibly still is, the Voice already has his full power.

I think the HoT would have more trouble in the situation, they would probably still come out on top. While Vitiate may have more force powers, that doesn't suggest that the HoT can't protect themselves against it, which when they are at full power, they have already experienced.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Even if that was not his real body, and I'm of the mind that it actually was and possibly still is, the Voice already has his full power.

I think the HoT would have more trouble in the situation, they would probably still come out on top. While Vitiate may have more force powers, that doesn't suggest that the HoT can't protect themselves against it, which when they are at full power, they have already experienced.
The voice wields his power, but may not be as adept at channeling it.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
There may be a difference however in how much power a weaker body (a voice) can effectively channel at once.

I'm also pretty sure Vitiate's real body would be able to tank much more as a result of the ritual.
1. That's not implied anywhere but in theory.
2. Tank much more what? We don't actually see the fight, only it's beginning and end. If your opinion on how strong the Emperor's body must be stems from how short the boss fight is, you're wasting time.

Either way, the only real evidence for this not being the Emperor's body is an email sent to the Wrath.

HoT dies

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
That email proves nothing, and the body could have been human. It was never stated anywhere however that it was.


Vitiate was a pure blood Sith Lord, so his original body would have been that of a pure blood Sith, which can be rather easily destinguished from a human. In Vitiate's special case, there is the addition of his - apparently - purely black eyes to mark him as special.



I wonder how you determine the different length of the respective tenures as Voices. We could also determine the effects of Dark Side corruption on pureblood Sith Lords. Apparently, the Ancient Sith had alchemy that prevented such effects, which Vitiate himself did use on his Servants and Scourge as well. I don't see why he wouldn't use the same on his original body. And, well, there isn't much description of a Dark Side taint when Revan faces his 1,000-year old original body, right?

And, you may have forgotten: He did use that last body in order to perform a Galaxy spanning Dark Side ritual. Channeling that much Dark Side energy is wont to corrupt a body in a rather short time. Hell. Anakin did show the first physical signs of a Dark Side taint (changing eye color) mere hours after becoming a Sith Lord - without doing much in the "Dark Side use" department. And Sidious managed to melt his own face, when he was exposed to the energy of his very own force lightning.



They don't lose their facial appendages and become humans, though.



Oh, it does? How many "standard killings" of a Voice have you seen exactly?



1) Vitiate is a pureblood Sith - the body was a human.
2) Vitiate was described as having pure black eyes - the body didn't.
3) We know that Vitiate invented the position of the Voice in order to keep his original body save - why would he deviate from that practice?
4) And, of course, there is this little e-mail from Servant One. Why would he lie regarding that specific point exactly. The main message is, that the Emperor is still alive - whether he is in his original body or in the shape of another Voice doesn't matter for that message, does it? So why suggest, that Servant One was not telling the truth regarding that point?

So, we have hard facts contradicting your speculation and baseless assumptions. So I guess, you're wrong.



It is quite a well established fact, that a force user possessing another body, is exposed to the natural limitations of that body. You may want to think a second about how the official version of Force sensitivity works: by midi-chlorian count that determines the strength of the natural connection a being has to the energy field being called the Force.

So if a force users "possesses" the body of another being, which had a weaker connection to the force (and with Vitiate's prodigal display of force abilities in a very young age, almost everyone would fit into that category), the force is channeled through a weaker connection. You may want to think of a Vitiate's strength in the force as a reservoir of water and the respective Voices providing a variety of channels with difference size with his original body being the one that can carry most water.

That also explains the discrepancy between the power-levels Vitiate demonstrates while using his original body and different Voices. And it might also serve as explanation for changing his "Voices" in rather short amounts of time. Maybe he was simple "using them up" in a very fast fashion - much like Sidious did with his Clone bodies throughout the "Dark Empire" series.

Isn't the voice just the Emperor's host body though. If the Emperor had a body and a voice, why wouldn't he just personally go to Korriban and push Baras' shit in rather than going through the song and dance of the Wrath doing it? Dark Council purges have happened for less.

Neph, all ancient Sith had facial appendages. The purebloods in TOR's time have human blood, which is why they invariably have five fingers and their Sith racial traits are on the wane.

I guess he can't control his real body while in his Voice. It does store his consciousness afterall.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Neph, all ancient Sith had facial appendages. The purebloods in TOR's time have human blood, which is why they invariably have five fingers and their Sith racial traits are on the wane.

Then why are they called Purebloods? If its a misnomer for them then it could just as easily be so for Vitiate. There's no mention of him having facial appendages.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I guess he can't control his real body while in his Voice. It does store his consciousness afterall.



Then why are they called Purebloods? If its a misnomer for them then it could just as easily be so for Vitiate. There's no mention of him having facial appendages.

It's even pointed out by devs that it's a misnomer. Look at GAotS: find me a Sith without face add-ons. Even Sadow with his 'near Jedi bloodline' had a huge chin extension, bright red skin, and was the only one to have five fingers on the dark council.

Originally posted by NemeBro
If I have a bottle of wine, and I pour like a fourth of it in a glass, I have poured my wine into the glass. That doesn't mean I poured it all in there.

You need something more concrete than that.
Nothing supports your comparison nor says that Emperor partially places his power in anything. You'll need a little more than your assumptions.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Nothing supports your comparison nor says that Emperor partially places his power in anything. You'll need a little more than your assumptions.

Since body possession never relies on the spirit but is dependent on the host (Kyp and Kun, Ragnos and Tavion, Sadow and his host body, that one sith in TOR on Hoth, etc.) there's a precedent which you're ignoring.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
I don't have to support my claims. You do though.

Originally posted by NemeBro
If I have a bottle of wine, and I pour like a fourth of it in a glass, I have poured my wine into the glass. That doesn't mean I poured it all in there.

You need something more concrete than that.

It says that talking with the Voice is to talk to Vitiate himself since it possesses his power and his consciousness. That's strongly suggesting his whole power. And another quote:

"The Voice also wields the Emperor's incredible power and is capable of striking down any who displease him."

So nothing concrete.

All right.

Do you have any reason to doubt that it holds all his power? All sources say that the Voice possesses his power, not a portion of it. Unless you have a compelling reason to think it would only be a portion, I see no reason to humor you here.

The precedent Moose mentioned which I was totally aware of.

Which is different since Vitiate actually prepares the Voice with rituals and various other means for housing his power. He's not just possessing it.

Originally posted by NemeBro
You do though.
I haven't said or claimed anything without supporting it. You on the other hand just brought analogy in that is supported by nothing.

Wow I missed a lot. The black eyes argument is actually a great one. The eyes on the body that HOT killed had red irises with white scleras. While one could make the argument that the red part was a result of more dark side corruption or immersion, it would not make his scleras go from a unique and evil looking black, to your average run of the mill white.

As per the whole "Vitiate didn't look Sith because dark side corruption made him look like a being of indeterminate race" thing does fall flat when you consider that he looks far more human than he does Sith.

As per the whole "why would Vitiate send the Wrath after the false voice thing" if he was trying to destroy the Galaxy, it probably worked in his best interests to keep the Dark Council and everyone else busy so his ritual wouldn't be interfered with. If his ritual was interfered with and he failed to pull it off, Baras does not have control of his empire any longer. On the topic of that, trying to wipe out all the life in the Galaxy paints a big fat target on his head, so I doubt he would risk his death like that.

As per the whole "the emperor's body does indeed die" quote, that quote is clearly pointing out that his body died, but implies that his spirit did not and that he'd be making a return. By "the emperor's body" they could've been referencing a voice body housing his spirit at the time which technically belonged to him, technically making it "his body."

There is also no reason to assume the Hands are lying when you consider the evidence and logic provided above.

On an out of universe perspective, let's think about the makers of the game shall we. They said very specifically that Vitiate's body dies, with emphasis on his body, implying that they plan on having him make a return at some point. They also threw in an email to the Wrath that confirms his survival. They are very clearly keeping Vitiate alive to milk more money/plot out of him.


I don't know why some people are so insistent that that had to have been Vitiate's true body and Vitiate is dead and gone, despite the evidence and logic to the contrary.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Wow I missed a lot. The black eyes argument is actually a great one. The eyes on the body that HOT killed had red irises with white scleras. While one could make the argument that the red part was a result of more dark side corruption or immersion, it would not make his scleras go from a unique and evil looking black, to your average run of the mill white.

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSVGUyivkA1Bs3ynFHT4sfizkQOF5djeOrJw2c-bnI9bY-fU-Yv
Looks white enough to me.

This is still only your opinions.

Except the Voice we see does in fact have the Emperor's consciousness in it. Nothing suggests it isn't a Voice.

That's the not the point anyone made but an email. The quote doesn't clearly point out anything. If it meant his Voice, they would have pointed it out as clearly as the email you based the rest of your opinions on.

Your opinions aren't really evidence.

There's no reason for that to limit Vitiate's body dying when he has Voices for this very reason.

Whoever said this? No one. Vitiate's body dying shouldn't limit him in the slightest if he constantly has a supply of Voices.

HoT is a puss, you should just accept it and move on

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
http://handsofdarkness.org/v4.0/wiki/images/thumb/1/1f/KeronPortrait.png/556px-KeronPortrait.png
Not sure what relevance this picture has.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
This is still only your opinions.
And the viewpoint that this was Vitiate's true body is what exactly?

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Except the Voice we see does in fact have the Emperor's consciousness in it. Nothing suggests it isn't a Voice.
All voices have Vitiate's conscious. You saying that nothing suggests it isn't a voice doesn't exactly help your case....? What are you trying to say?

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
That's the not the point anyone made but an email. The quote doesn't clearly point out anything. If it meant his Voice, they would have pointed it out as clearly as the email you based the rest of your opinions on.
I believe that was one of the creators in an interview, and not the email.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Your opinions aren't really evidence.
And I could say the exact same to anyone who says that that was Vitiate's true body.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
There's no reason for that to limit Vitiate's body dying when he has Voices for this very reason. Whoever said this? No one. Vitiate's body dying shouldn't limit him in the slightest if he constantly has a supply of Voices.
He has his voices so that he can operate without his true body dying. The voices are there so he can keep his true body safe, so evidently it is very important.

If you are seriously going off of the tangent that Vitiate's true body was killed, but he survived, then what reason at all would the hands have for lying in that email?

Originally posted by WildBantha88
HoT is a puss, you should just accept it and move on

HoT due to his accomplishments has been established as being one of the most powerful Star Wars characters of all time, above Mace Windu in Sabers possibly.

Originally posted by Nephthys
With high levels of darkside corruption the two races can be quite indistinguishable actually. And the same source that says he's a Sith Pureblood says that he's so corrupted by the darkside that he doesn't even resemble one any more and "had little in common with ordinary Sith."

As Janus has pointed out already: There aren't pure blood Sith without facial appendages in the time of Vitiate's birth, so we would see them, if that was his original body. And even a massive form of darkside corruption wouldn't magic them away.



Urm. What?
We don't know how long he was in possession of the Voss Mystic body.

http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120918025633/starwars/images/2/21/Emperor_chair.png

This is him, right before attacking the Jedi Strike Team. Doesn't look like a Voss Mystic to me. So he took that shape after this confrontation. And the entirety of the HoT Voss storyline happens after the Emperor is freed there by the new Wrath (who is logically just given that position after Scourge's betrayal). With additional time passing while the Hero is busy on Corellia. So he could have possessed the last body quite longer than the Voss Mystic.



Thanks for providing proof that the facial appendages don't fall off because of Dark Side corruption.



Again, I can only point to the original source material concerning the Ancient Sith. The original Sith species has existed as a society of dark side using individuals for more than 100,000 years. It wouldn't be off the chart to suggest, that they have developed a collective resistance against it's "tainting" effects over that time span. Because, as we see in the comics, not a single Ancient Sith Lord suffers from any physical "Dark Side corruption", when all of them have survived for centuries.

Could it still have affected Vitiate in a very heavy fashion? Why, of course. But not in way that makes him indistinquishable from a human being. Perhabs the body that faces the strike team is his "original" one, given that is the only one that fits the description as not being recognizeable as either human or Sith.



Huh?



The original Ancient Sith all had facial appendages, as the only interbreeding happened with the (relatively few) Dark Jedi that joined the Sith 2,000 years before the fall of the Sith Empire. As Janus pointed out: That even applies to people with a almost pure Jedi lineage like Naga Sadow.

And SW:TOR itself offers various instances, in which it is made clear, that their is destinction between the playable "purebloods" and the one with an Ancient Sith lineage. The Inquisitor storyline has Overseer Harkun constantly talking down his apprentices, because of the pureblood Sith Ffon Althe, who is destined to overcome them all by virtue of his ancestry. There is also an individual in the Korriban Academy, that sents you on a quest to take blood samples of various instructors in the academy, to deterime whether they are "pureblood Sith" or not.



Because Vitiate wanted to be killed at that point in time and willfully relinquished the body that he used as host. Hardly an instance compareably to his battle against the HoT, is it?



He would still have the typical Sith features (facial appendages), that don't go away.



So why didn't you explain it?



Because it is his essence that absorbs the power, making it completely irrelevant which body he was using for the task.



As we know that Vitiate hasn't died, this isn't a lie.
The point is, that it doesn't make any sense to lie regarding the Emperor's body. Whether or not it was the original one is entirely irrelevant, as long as the essence of the Emperor survived (which it did, as we all know).



And what "body" was he referring to? The host body or Vitiate's original body? Not that this question even matters, since the voiced opinion of some author is not considered canon and can be entirely ignored. I thought I have forced that lesson into the heads of people often enough by now.



The power of Vitiate is not linked to his body, but to his essence. The body just determines how much of the power he could use. Do you honestly think that, if was capable of summoning the power of 8,000 Sith Lords in every instance we see him fighting, anybody would last even a second against him? So even his original body offered some limitations, but not as much as the weaker host bodies. There was a reason, why Sidious didn't see the essence transfer as the final solution to his quest for immortality.

The same mechanic can be observed at multiple instances in the mythos. Think about Jerec absorbing power from the Valley of the Jedi - just to get beaten by Kyle Katarn. Not to mention the weaker versions of force users possessing other people (e.g. Ragnos with Tavion).



See above. For the Voice to be capable of handling the same amount of power Vitiate's original body could channel, it would have needed to be as powerful as his original body. I don't consider that likely.



Yes. Because his children hold a part of his power as well and are capable of "summoning" it (or Vitiate takes over there). This while he occupies his host body at the same time. There is a quote somewhere, that says, people talking to him have the - correct - feeling that he is listening to other conversations elsewere (through his children). So his essence is spread between his original body, his children and his Voice at least, making it impossible for the Voice to command all of it - especially in comparison to Vitiate before his confrontation with Revan.

For the millionth time, Vitiate's host body is not dead.

Thanks for your input.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Thanks for your input.

No problem, because you keep saying it and everything points to the opposite. Not to mention the guy's own words leave LOTS of room for interpretation.

Vitiate.

Originally posted by Nai
As Janus has pointed out already: There aren't pure blood Sith without facial appendages in the time of Vitiate's birth, so we would see them, if that was his original body. And even a massive form of darkside corruption wouldn't magic them away.

That remains to be seen.

Originally posted by Nai
Urm. What?
We don't know how long he was in possession of the Voss Mystic body.

http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120918025633/starwars/images/2/21/Emperor_chair.png

This is him, right before attacking the Jedi Strike Team. Doesn't look like a Voss Mystic to me. So he took that shape after this confrontation. And the entirety of the HoT Voss storyline happens after the Emperor is freed there by the new Wrath (who is logically just given that position after Scourge's betrayal). With additional time passing while the Hero is busy on Corellia. So he could have possessed the last body quite longer than the Voss Mystic.

Dude, he's.... wearing a mask. You can't tell if he's a Voss Mystic or not.

But you're probably correct that he only possessed a Mystic after his confrontation with the Strike Team. We do know he was trapped on Voss before the Sith Warrior was chosen as the Wrath though. Which still puts the timeline at more or equal time as he would have been in possession of the body the Knight fights, if it were a Voice.

Originally posted by Nai
Thanks for providing proof that the facial appendages don't fall off because of Dark Side corruption.

I was showing off the pale skin color. Though the Vitiate we see in the Dark Temple has far paler skin than any human with darkside corruption too.

Originally posted by Nai
Again, I can only point to the original source material concerning the Ancient Sith. The original Sith species has existed as a society of dark side using individuals for more than 100,000 years. It wouldn't be off the chart to suggest, that they have developed a collective resistance against it's "tainting" effects over that time span. Because, as we see in the comics, not a single Ancient Sith Lord suffers from any physical "Dark Side corruption", when all of them have survived for centuries.

Could it still have affected Vitiate in a very heavy fashion? Why, of course. But not in way that makes him indistinquishable from a human being. Perhabs the body that faces the strike team is his "original" one, given that is the only one that fits the description as not being recognizeable as either human or Sith.

Yet we know that Vitiate barely resembles his species from Karpyshan's twitter.

Did you seriously not know that Vitiate is wearing a mask in that scene? Speaking of which, lets take a look at it, shall we:

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120310195315/swtor/images/thumb/7/77/The_Emperor_in_Descent.png/830px-The_Emperor_in_Descent.png

There's no facial appendages here. No bumps in the fabric other than for his ears.

Originally posted by Nai
Huh?

Perhaps channeling that much darkside energy and death permanently or temporarily corrupted him enough to turn his eyes red.

Originally posted by Nai
The original Ancient Sith all had facial appendages, as the only interbreeding happened with the (relatively few) Dark Jedi that joined the Sith 2,000 years before the fall of the Sith Empire. As Janus pointed out: That even applies to people with a almost pure Jedi lineage like Naga Sadow.

And SW:TOR itself offers various instances, in which it is made clear, that their is destinction between the playable "purebloods" and the one with an Ancient Sith lineage. The Inquisitor storyline has Overseer Harkun constantly talking down his apprentices, because of the pureblood Sith Ffon Althe, who is destined to overcome them all by virtue of his ancestry. There is also an individual in the Korriban Academy, that sents you on a quest to take blood samples of various instructors in the academy, to deterime whether they are "pureblood Sith" or not.

Do you have any actual proof that its the case that all Ancient Sith had facial appendages and its solely because of inbreeding that we see Sith Pureblood without them in TOR? Because pictures of the Ancient Sith show otherwise:

http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110212110114/starwars/images/8/8d/Massassi_and_Kissai.jpg

Naga Sadow actually has been drawn without facial appendages at times btw. And there did seem to be Sith without facial appendages in the old TotJ comics:

http://www.loresdelsith.net/universo/fuerza/sith/bin/dor.jpg

Though the monkey faces are quite amusing.

Also you forget that Ffon didn't have facial appendages either.

http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130117041559/starwars/images/5/57/FfonAltheJustOffTheBoat-TOR.png

Originally posted by Nai
Because Vitiate wanted to be killed at that point in time and willfully relinquished the body that he used as host. Hardly an instance compareably to his battle against the HoT, is it?

No, I don't see why that would change anything or why Vitiate would be so heavily weakened after one death as opposed to the other.

Originally posted by Nai
He would still have the typical Sith features (facial appendages), that don't go away.

How do you know? Vitiate is a completely unique case. We have no idea how he changed over the centuries.

Originally posted by Nai
So why didn't you explain it?

I did above.

Originally posted by Nai
Because it is his essence that absorbs the power, making it completely irrelevant which body he was using for the task.

Says the guy going on about midi-chlorian limits. If that's the case then it shouldn't matter if it was the Voice or not. If his essence is what determines his power, then the Voice which contains his essence is just as powerful as his true body.

Originally posted by Nai
As we know that Vitiate hasn't died, this isn't a lie.
The point is, that it doesn't make any sense to lie regarding the Emperor's body. Whether or not it was the original one is entirely irrelevant, as long as the essence of the Emperor survived (which it did, as we all know).

Oh please, Vitiate has already had one Wrath turn on him. What do you think would happen if his new Wrath, barely appointed and largely untested in terms of loyalty, were to learn that his true body had been vanquished? Hell, if he wanted to the Wrath could rather simply take up where Baras left off. Kill the Hand, **** up Vitiate's return and tell everyone that he'll deliver the Emperor's orders from now on. Telling him that it was just his Voice would lead to much the same reaction as you're having, that he'd obviously return and it's nothing that significant.

Originally posted by Nai
And what "body" was he referring to? The host body or Vitiate's original body? Not that this question even matters, since the voiced opinion of some author is not considered canon and can be entirely ignored. I thought I have forced that lesson into the heads of people often enough by now.

He say's "The Emperor's body", not "The Voice's body". All sources refer to the being in the temple as "The Sith Emperor" and that the Jedi Knight struck down "The Emperor." When the Sith Warrior talks with the Voice, all game text refers to him as "The Emperor's Voice." Even when Kira Carsen is possessed by him, it refers to him as "Kira Carsen" still. Yet all sources including the Lead Writer refers to it as "The Emperor's body".

Also lol @ wanting to discard the opinion of the Lead Writer for Swtor but taking the Hand totally at their word.

Originally posted by Nai
The power of Vitiate is not linked to his body, but to his essence. The body just determines how much of the power he could use. Do you honestly think that, if was capable of summoning the power of 8,000 Sith Lords in every instance we see him fighting, anybody would last even a second against him? So even his original body offered some limitations, but not as much as the weaker host bodies. There was a reason, why Sidious didn't see the essence transfer as the final solution to his quest for immortality.

The same mechanic can be observed at multiple instances in the mythos. Think about Jerec absorbing power from the Valley of the Jedi - just to get beaten by Kyle Katarn. Not to mention the weaker versions of force users possessing other people (e.g. Ragnos with Tavion).

Vitiate isn't literally as powerful as 8000 Sith Lords in much the same way that Nihilus isn't as powerful as every being on Katarr. Much of his power goes to maintaining his immortality and feeding his "endless hunger." Meanwhile we have instances such as Darth Nox channeling the "combined power" of multiple Force users, well above their own limit. And we know that Vitiate was expanding his power through feeding on his servants. Theres absolutely no proof that he was limited by his body. If that were true, then his final ritual would be pointless since he'd never be capable of wielding that much power.

Lastly, don't forget that the ritual of Nathema "vastly increased his capacity as a practitioner of the Force." Which seems to pretty directly contradict your argument.

As I pointed out before, those cases aren't comparable with Vitiate's because he specifically prepares his Voice to house his power and consciousness and completely hollows out the body before possessing it.

Originally posted by Nai
See above. For the Voice to be capable of handling the same amount of power Vitiate's original body could channel, it would have needed to be as powerful as his original body. I don't consider that likely.

You have absolutely no proof for this. The only thing you have is fan speculation.

Jerec couldn't use all the power in the Valley - Not confirmed anywhere. Its just as likely that Kyle just got lucky.

Ragnos was limited by Tavion's body - Never stated.

Originally posted by Nai
Yes. Because his children hold a part of his power as well and are capable of "summoning" it (or Vitiate takes over there). This while he occupies his host body at the same time. There is a quote somewhere, that says, people talking to him have the - correct - feeling that he is listening to other conversations elsewere (through his children). So his essence is spread between his original body, his children and his Voice at least, making it impossible for the Voice to command all of it - especially in comparison to Vitiate before his confrontation with Revan.

Many of Vitiates Children were exposed and killed before his confrontation with the Jedi Knight. Also theres no indication that put part of his power and essence into them weakened him. It's just as possible that he placed power inside them and then recovered that portion like a normal Force user would. His power is said to be "ever expanding" after all.

Ok... For the last time, Vitiate's eyes were black. Dark side corruption could give him red irises, but it wouldn't give him normal scleras.

Where does it say that his whole eye's were black? I thought that just refered to him having black irises. In Revan he is described as having "dark circles of his eyes". If the whole eyeball were black, that wouldn't be visible.

It also says that his eyes turn red when using his power. So that may be why he has red eyes too.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Where does it say that his whole eye's were black? I thought that just refered to him having black irises. In Revan he is described as having "dark circles of his eyes". If the whole eyeball were black, that wouldn't be visible.

It also says that his eyes turn red when using his power. So that may be why he has red eyes too.
I'm out of town on an iPhone right now, so I won't be able to find that quote. I'll get back to you if somebody else doesn't.


Once again though, it makes no sense for Vitiate to be dead when the creators are clearly keeping him alive to make money.

As Nai said, his power is tied to his essence, not his body. He will return, in a different body.

Originally posted by Nephthys
That remains to be seen.


Does it? As it is you that wants to suggest that Vitiate deviates from his own race standards in a very special way, it would be your task to back that assertion with proof. Unless you can do that, there is no reason to follow your line of thinking, is there?



Totally didn't remember that - and I just went by the picture above. Has been ages since I played the HoT storyline.



Actually, I was wrong there, I think.
Baras needed some time for research and planning to orchestrate his plan to trap the Voice. Also, if I remember correctly, the Voss mystic that would become the Voice was kidnapped from the planet shortly after its discovery . I could be wrong there, of course. Would need some research on Baras' plans, I think. That could also explain why Vitiate was wearing a mask during his confrontation with the Jedi Strike Team. Revealing the Voss identity of his Voice would probably have led to investigations on the planet - and have weakened the Empire's presence there.



That appears to be speculation, Neph.



Again, Neph: Everything said outside official source material can be considered non-existant as far as evidence goes for debates here. You may want to recall Nick Gillard's statement that lightsaber forms (specifically Vaapad) didn't even exists. The authority of a Star Wars authors doesn't extend beyond the source material and even then, if he left something open for interpretation it is just that: open for interpretation.



Non conclusive evidence, Neph. There is also no bump from a nose, so I suppose Vitiate is Lord Voldemort. Depending on the fit of the Mask, they could be hidden under it. If that even is his real body, which would be another deviation from his modus operandi of keeping Voices in the first place.



His eyes were entirely black, Neph. While I can see the Iris turning red, I don't see how his sclera (the white stuff in a human eye) would go from black to white in the process.



You may want to check the typical features of the Sith species here (since I'm lacking any other source at the moment). Anything that deviates from those was caused by interbreeding with the human Dark Jedi. Which can be completely ruled out for the maternal side of Vitiate's family (non force-sensitive completely) and is rather unlikely, considering the Human Dark Jedi where dwelling mostly on the main planets of the Empire (Ziost).

For the rest of your examples: There are still some remarkable features that destinquish the Sith rather clearly from human beings - and most of that are protuding bone spurs, which also wouldn't disappear through Dark Side corruption.



Because it wasn't the death that weakened him, but the failed ritual he attempted. He was already in a weakend condition when the HoT confronted him - otherwise the Jedi wouldn't have survived the encounter.



Because we haven't seen body parts falling off because of Dark Side corruption? Please stop speculating without the slightest bit of evidence pointing in the direction of your thoughts.



Do you think that Vitiate's original body has a higher midi-chlorian count than any of his Voice bodies, Neph, given his prodigal talent in the force? That appears to be likely. So it does matter which body he was using - you just didn't get the point.



The detail you have missed, dear Neph, is the message send by servant one before Vitiate's confrontation with the HoT:

"We are again aware of the Voice. Preparations are being made to secure a new host, but the rituals take time." - Servant One

Do you think they saw what would happen to Vitiate before, and so lied to the Wrath about securing a new host body, while letting Vitiate run lose in his original body?



Except the two messages from Servant One, with the first one claiming that they are finding a new host body for the Emperor after the Wrath killed the Voss body?

That aside, Neph: You're stretching it with your claims. The thing facing the Jedi Strike Team is also exclusively reffered to as "the Emperor" and not "his Voice". When the Voice is trapped on Voss, the terms are used interchangeably throughout the source material, because trapping the Voice trapped the Emperor as well. And if the Voice wields Vitiate's power, why destinquish Emperor and Voice on all occassions?



I'm not discarding the opinion of the Lead Write but your interpretation of it, when pretty much everything suggests that you are wrong.

Limited in use of that power, Neph - not in accumulating it. What point of my metaphor was it you didn't understand? There is his essence (water reservoir) that can get more powerful (filled more and more) but the outlet of that reservoir (original body / host bodies) determine how much water (Force energy) can flow from the reservoir to the outside.

What do you think why it needed the Hand to find a new Voice body for Vitiate, if the Sith Emperor could - technically - just possess anybody. Could it be, that he was dependant on a sufficient force connection of the host body (e.g. a high enough Midichlorian count) to use it? Could it be that this is the very same thinking, that made Sidious strife for taking over Anakin Solo as a host body for his Dark Side essence, instead of chosing one of his own pawns or some random force sensible child?

Denying that idea is pretty much equal to suggesting that Jaden Korr is more powerful than Marka Ragnos.



Fan speculation, Neph? It has been stated in a variety of canon sources, that the ability to channel the Force is influenced by the midi-chlorian count of a Force sensitive. The more midi-chlorians, the more powerful the Force user.

Why the hell should that principle not apply, when a Force user is using another beings body? And why are you even suggesting that - against every evidence available?

Throughput DF:JK it is constantly mentioned by a variety of persons that absorbing power from the Valley would turn Jerec into a Force (demi)god. So instead being limited by his body, he was really omnipotent, but just suffered some bad luck. And, as said before, Ragnos is less powerful than a freaking padawan and wasn't limited by Tavion's body, which was not weaker than his original one, but also nigh death at the point at which he started possessing it.



Is his personal force power ever expanding, Neph?
The question isn't whether or not that did "weaken" him. The fact is, that some of his power stayed with his children and was, therefor, not accessible by his Voice. And I don't know if spreading your conscience over hundreds of bodies would really make you - as an individual - stronger.



Why would the make him use his own body versus the HoT, when the entire point of making Voices was to keep his original body save. So he deviates from his well established modus operandi that worked just fine for three centuries, after his Servants proclaim that he won't do that (announcing that they are just finding a new host body for the Voice). He then proceedes to conduct the most dangerous force ritual of his career in his original body (instead of protecting it by using a host) and confronts the HoT with the same body (despite of the danger that such a confrontation meant and the fact that such a confrontation led to the creation of the Voice in the first place). Then he has that "original body" killed, with his Servant's glossing over that to explain his absense.

This just happened, so that Neph can be right.

But I like being right.

So somebody correct me if I'm wrong here, but the proponents of the "Vitiate's true body died" theory think he survived through a voice?

If that is the case, then why bother to protect his true body in the first place?
And what would the hands gain from lying to the Wrath about whih body died if he survived regardless?

There's a huge gap in logic here none of the proponents of this theory seem to feel like addressing.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
So somebody correct me if I'm wrong here, but the proponents of the "Vitiate's true body died" theory think he survived through a voice?

If that is the case, then why bother to protect his true body in the first place?
And what would the hands gain from lying to the Wrath about whih body died if he survived regardless?

There's a huge gap in logic here none of the proponents of this theory seem to feel like addressing.
I didn't say he survived through a Voice. I said he would not need his body. I'm not sure if it's actually dead either way. As to the question, because it's his body. This is like saying why doesn't everyone protect their arms when there are prosthetics. There are plenty of reasons of wanting to protect a body that belongs to him. What do the Hands gain by lying? For starters, they could do it in an effort to show how unconquerable the real Emperor actually is. It builds moral, they themselves call it an "impossible feat."

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
I didn't say he survived through a Voice. I said he would not need his body. I'm not sure if it's actually dead either way. As to the question, because it's his body. This is like saying why doesn't everyone protect their arms when there are prosthetics. There are plenty of reasons of wanting to protect a body that belongs to him. What do the Hands gain by lying? For starters, they could do it in an effort to show how unconquerable the real Emperor actually is. It builds moral, they themselves call it an "impossible feat."
Vitiate already has other bodies he operates through jut as well, unless you are conceding that there is greater appeal to his true body, ie. greater ability to channel power or being necessary for his survival.

Riiiiiiiigggggghhhhhht... Because the SWTOR writers would have the hands deceive the Wrath and their fan base for something as dull an uninteresting as boosting morale.

I also don't see any proof the hands are lying.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
So somebody correct me if I'm wrong here, but the proponents of the "Vitiate's true body died" theory think he survived through a voice?

If that is the case, then why bother to protect his true body in the first place?
And what would the hands gain from lying to the Wrath about whih body died if he survived regardless?

There's a huge gap in logic here none of the proponents of this theory seem to feel like addressing.

Because dying severely weakened him and made him go shithive maggots.

Damage control. The whole Empire has been rocked by the news of the Emperor's death. Its obvious that the Hand would want to limit the blow by telling people that he's not really dead, its just that his Voice was killed. The Emperor's just resting guys, nothing to worry about. Hey **** off Malgus, the real Emperor ain't really dead yet. >:[

Originally posted by Nephthys
Because dying severely weakened him and made him go shithive maggots.

Damage control. The whole Empire has been rocked by the news of the Emperor's death. Its obvious that the Hand would want to limit the blow by telling people that he's not really dead, its just that his Voice was killed. The Emperor's just resting guys, nothing to worry about. Hey **** off Malgus, the real Emperor ain't really dead yet. >:
The hands failed to inform anyone other than the Wrath about this.

They don't communicate with the rest of the Empire. Only the very top of the Sith hierarchy even know they exist.

Plus I imagine if they broadcast it to the world the Hero of Tython and Scourge would just rock up and push their shit in a few days later.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Vitiate already has other bodies he operates through jut as well, unless you are conceding that there is greater appeal to his true body, ie. greater ability to channel power or being necessary for his survival.

No. It hurts to die. Why is that so hard for you to accept. It's his body. He wants it. Take my arm example, there are plenty of replacement arms lined up. Should every trooper stop wearing armor there because it can be replaced?

Because no government never does this. Ever. Because we want one of the highest, if not the highest, authority figure underneath the Emperor to have doubts in their leader. In a society that believes in removing the weak. Yeah.

I don't see any proof that they didn't. Yes, the Hands could be telling the truth. That's valid evidence. However, I'm weighing one side against the other, and no matter how damning, Nope mail isn't enough for me.

Unfortunately it's nobody's job to prove it's false but your own if you don't believe it. I see no reason not to believe the email.

I love how this forum is filled with HoT fanboys that actually believe what HE slayed was the 'real' body of Emperor Vitiate. oh to what lengths will imbeciles go to defend their beloved character even with the fact laid in front of them they refuse to see logic

Originally posted by psmith81992
Unfortunately it's nobody's job to prove it's false but your own if you don't believe it. I see no reason not to believe the email.
The Hands made a claim, not I. One you simply accepted, by your own admission.
Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
I love how this forum is filled with HoT fanboys that actually believe what HE slayed was the 'real' body of Emperor Vitiate. oh to what lengths will imbeciles go to defend their beloved character even with the fact laid in front of them they refuse to see logic
I'm a fan of the SW myself. But do go on.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
No. It hurts to die. Why is that so hard for you to accept. It's his body. He wants it. Take my arm example, there are plenty of replacement arms lined up. Should every trooper stop wearing armor there because it can be replaced?

Because no government never does this. Ever. Because we want one of the highest, if not the highest, authority figure underneath the Emperor to have doubts in their leader. In a society that believes in removing the weak. Yeah.

I don't see any proof that they didn't. Yes, the Hands could be telling the truth. That's valid evidence. However, I'm weighing one side against the other, and no matter how damning, Nope mail isn't enough for me.
I'm on an iPhone, so I can't conveniently quote one part at a time, so I'll jus answer in list format.

1. Vitiate became numb to pain a long time ago, so I doubt he gives a damn about how much it hurts. I doubt Vitiate holds such a sentimental attachment to his body that he would I to such lengths to preserve it if he could supposedly function without it.

2. The writers would logically not deceive everybody on that for a reason so dull and uninteresting. Yet the Wrath wasn't having doubts about the Emperor when he fell into Baras's trap and was being held captive by Set Melkor?

3. So the hands say something, and you say they're lying because "there is no evidence of them telling the truth", even though there's no evidence of them lying either? Not very logical.

Originally posted by Nephthys
They don't communicate with the rest of the Empire. Only the very top of the Sith hierarchy even know they exist.

Plus I imagine if they broadcast it to the world the Hero of Tython and Scourge would just rock up and push their shit in a few days later.
So you are telling me that the Emperor's top agents lied to prevent the Empire from spiraling into chaos, even though they decided not to spread the information anywhere near far enough to achieve the desired effect?

Originally posted by Emperordmb
I'm on an iPhone, so I can't conveniently quote one part at a time, so I'll jus answer in list format.

1. Vitiate became numb to pain a long time ago, so I doubt he gives a damn about how much it hurts. I doubt Vitiate holds such a sentimental attachment to his body that he would I to such lengths to preserve it if he could supposedly function without it.

By your own statements the death of a Voice seemed to weaken him, so.... I didn't know of the numbness to pain or whatever, but more towards the other effects when I meant pain. Either way, the last part is your opinions.

And your opinions. Followed by more of your opinions. Nothing says the Wrath wasn't starting to have doubts. Not to my recollection anyway.

Those who make the claim have the burden of proof. That's the basis of logic.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
So you are telling me that the Emperor's top agents lied to prevent the Empire from spiraling into chaos, even though they decided not to spread the information anywhere near far enough to achieve the desired effect?

Well, lied to the Wrath at least. A brand new Wrath with unproven loyalty.

They decided nothing. They operate in secret, always.

I didn't say you did. I simply stated that if you believed it to be untrue, it would be on you to prove it.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
I love how this forum is filled with HoT fanboys that actually believe what HE slayed was the 'real' body of Emperor Vitiate. oh to what lengths will imbeciles go to defend their beloved character even with the fact laid in front of them they refuse to see logic

Personally I don't think it matters one way of the other. I simply choose to believe the other based on the evidence.

The HoT is legit though. Even in Act I Satele was calling her their "greatest weapon against the darkness."

Originally posted by psmith81992
I didn't say you did. I simply stated that if you believed it to be untrue, it would be on you to prove it.

I'm not sure the burden of proof requires him to prove something isn't true.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
By your own statements the death of a Voice seemed to weaken him, so.... I didn't know of the numbness to pain or whatever, but more towards the other effects when I meant pain. Either way, the last part is your opinions.

And your opinions. Followed by more of your opinions. Nothing says the Wrath wasn't starting to have doubts. Not to my recollection anyway.

Those who make the claim have the burden of proof. That's the basis of logic.
1. Vitiate is not very sentimental at all, so his body must have some other value to it. Vitiate told Scourge that the price of immortality is pain, and that Scourge would eventually feel nothing like Vitiate himself.

2/3. And the viewpoint that the hands were lying is not an opinion? It is your responsibility to prove that they were lying, not my responsibility to prove a negative. The claim that the hands were lying is more of a claim than the hands were telling the truth.

The burden of proof here certainly doesn't require one to confirm what the Servants are saying.

I'm fairly certain that hasn't been your argument in the past. Always asking me to prove that a character is right or telling the truth on a matter, dismissing in-universe opinions as fallible. Colonel Tobin, anyone?

Look the given explanation is that it was a voice. Challenging the given explanation is a larger claim than accepting it.

You can believe whatever you want. In the end it just goes down to which set of evidence you think is right. It's a pointless debate until we get some real definitive proof one way or the other.

I only have an issue with it when you try to use it to diminish the Hero's feat.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
1. Vitiate is not very sentimental at all, so his body must have some other value to it. Vitiate told Scourge that the price of immortality is pain, and that Scourge would eventually feel nothing like Vitiate himself.

If the body dying causes him to be weakened, that's the value. As to the rest, good to know. It's been a long time since I've read Revan.

I didn't say they were lying as a definite fact. I said it was evidence that the body encountered was a Voice, but the rest of the evidence inclined me to believe they were lying. The Hands made the claim, the Emperor was not really killed, well as much as I believe Vitiate was killed(which is not that much), they offered nothing else as proof to back it up. That's the claim. I'm saying they should prove this claim because I don't believe it outweighs everything else laid out against them.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
If the body dying causes him to be weakened, that's the value. As to the rest, good to know. It's been a long time since I've read Revan.

I didn't say they were lying as a definite fact. I said it was evidence that the body encountered was a Voice, but the rest of the evidence inclined me to believe they were lying. The Hands made the claim, the Emperor was not really killed, well as much as I believe Vitiate was killed(which is not that much), they offered nothing else as proof to back it up. That's the claim. I'm saying they should prove this claim because I don't believe it outweighs everything else laid out against them.
1. And the death of any other body his spirit inhabits wouldn't have the same effect on him?

2. What other evidence is there stacked against them?

Originally posted by Nephthys
I only have an issue with it when you try to use it to diminish the Hero's feat.

What feat, Neph? Defeating a severely weakened Vitiate?

On an extremely powerful Force nexus, with Scourge saying that he would recover swiftly, after the Hero had to fight through legions of Sith and the Imperial Guard, warriors so deadly that even the mightiest of Sith simply surrender to their inevitable death at their hands.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
1. And the death of any other body his spirit inhabits wouldn't have the same effect on him?

What does this have to do with anything? "He can be killed in other bodies, so why not let it happen."-What this says. It's not like Vitiate made a habit out of getting his Voices killed.

*sigh

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
What does this have to do with anything? "He can be killed in other bodies, so why not let it happen."-What this says. It's not like Vitiate made a habit out of getting his Voices killed.

*sigh
1. He goes to extreme lengths to protect his true body that he doesn't do to protect the voice bodies.

2. That's not a valid answer

Originally posted by Emperordmb
1. He goes to extreme lengths to protect his true body that he doesn't do to protect the voice bodies.

Where does it say he doesn't go through lengths to protect it?

I already gave my reasons why I believe it is the real body. It wasn't enough for you obviously, but I gave my reasons.

Originally posted by Nephthys
On an extremely powerful Force nexus,

One, which he has probably emptied of much of the resident force energies, because he needed them for his ritual - which was, for all we know, the main reason chosing that particular location in the first place.



Scourge had pretty much no idea how fast that recovery would happen. How should he? What Vitiate attempted had never been done before. Furthermore, the ritual was interrupted through the actions of the HoT on Corellia, which probably resulted in the weakening of Vitiate in the first place. And since the HoT travels from there to Dromund Kaas, there wasn't much time for recovery. Which is also pretty clear from the fact that Vitiate is still on location when the HoT arrives.



I certainly didn't see "legions" of the Imperial Guard there, so thanks for the exeggeration.

That aside: What makes the Imperial Guard so dangerous is the fact, that they can draw power from Vitiate himself, which is hardly an option, when the Emperor is either in need all of his power (attempting the ritual) or already in a weakened state (failing ritual). This absolute backing by the Emperor was also the possible reason for many to simply surrender to the Guard instead of fighting it (and risk a direct confrontation with either the Wrath or Vitiate himself).

Which means, the HoT was a Jedi Master fighting people who were all non force sensitives. I wonder how much their elite training is worth and how much effort it needs to deal with them, if one can take each and every single one of them down through the Force...

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Where does it say he doesn't go through lengths to protect it?

I already gave my reasons why I believe it is the real body. It wasn't enough for you obviously, but I gave my reasons.
1. The voices exist to protect his true body, so evidently his true body is more valuable in some way.

2. All I've seen are reasons that it's possible. Not any reasons that suggest it's likely.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
1. The voices exist to protect his true body, so evidently his true body is more valuable in some way.

Except that's never implied by anyone. Even going of that, I'd assume it would only be more useful for the rituals. Not the actual use of his power which is the only thing that matters here.

Okay.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Except that's never implied by anyone. Even going of that, I'd assume it would only be more useful for the rituals. Not the actual use of his power which is the only thing that matters here.

Okay.
1. The SWTOR encyclopedia says he made it as a result of Revan's assassination attempt, so yeah it sounds like they're there so he can safeguard his true body. Also how would Vitiate's true body be better for rituals but jot be more powerful. The two seem to be linked.

2. Is that a concession or a dodge?

Originally posted by Nai
Does it? As it is you that wants to suggest that Vitiate deviates from his own race standards in a very special way, it would be your task to back that assertion with proof. Unless you can do that, there is no reason to follow your line of thinking, is there?

Well I already have, Karpyshan said that Vitiate "was a pureblood, but after so many centuries of life he has little in common with ordinary Sith." So we already know that he does deviate from his own race in some or a lot of ways.

Originally posted by Nai
Totally didn't remember that - and I just went by the picture above. Has been ages since I played the HoT storyline.

It's pretty hilarious that you thought that was his actual head. Forget about facial appendages, he'd have facial brain tissue if that were true, lol. Cool though, I didn't know you'd played the game.

Originally posted by Nai
Actually, I was wrong there, I think.
Baras needed some time for research and planning to orchestrate his plan to trap the Voice. Also, if I remember correctly, the Voss mystic that would become the Voice was kidnapped from the planet shortly after its discovery . I could be wrong there, of course. Would need some research on Baras' plans, I think. That could also explain why Vitiate was wearing a mask during his confrontation with the Jedi Strike Team. Revealing the Voss identity of his Voice would probably have led to investigations on the planet - and have weakened the Empire's presence there.

Yeah, I'm fuzzy on the details too to be honest. Sel Makor says that Baras came to him decades ago. Wookieepedia says Vitiate only came to Voss in the year the game is set. Other than that....

Since you're being so honest here, I will be too. I don't think this is that compelling either way. We have no idea what darkside corruption would do to a Voss, so the Voice appearing unaffected isn't that good as proof.

We do see another Voice in one of the comics though. No corruption.

Originally posted by Nai
That appears to be speculation, Neph.

I meant in terms of the game, I believe the Emperor is paler than its possible to get even with full darkside corruption. He seems ridiculously pale to me.

Originally posted by Nai
Again, Neph: Everything said outside official source material can be considered non-existant as far as evidence goes for debates here. You may want to recall Nick Gillard's statement that lightsaber forms (specifically Vaapad) didn't even exists. The authority of a Star Wars authors doesn't extend beyond the source material and even then, if he left something open for interpretation it is just that: open for interpretation.

Nice opinion there. I don't see why we should ignore the statement of one of the people who created the character. Nick Gillard is different. He's simply a stunt choreographer. He has little part in the creative process and no authority to speak on such matters. Karpyshan helped come up with the Emperor. Also you say later on that you don't discard the words of the Lead Writer, but you will discard Karpyshan's?

It doesn't really matter though, I can just argue that Vitiate had be corrupted over the centuries and barely resembles his race even without Karpyshan's quote. Until we get a concrete description of his appearance it's just a matter of opinion.

Originally posted by Nai
Non conclusive evidence, Neph. There is also no bump from a nose, so I suppose Vitiate is Lord Voldemort. Depending on the fit of the Mask, they could be hidden under it. If that even is his real body, which would be another deviation from his modus operandi of keeping Voices in the first place.

There is a bump for the nose, its just not very visible because the mask is black and it has that odd blindfold design.

This is his secret, cloaked fortress. The whole reason they attacked it was because they thought it was where is real body was hidden. Which could be true, idk.

Originally posted by Nai
His eyes were entirely black, Neph. While I can see the Iris turning red, I don't see how his sclera (the white stuff in a human eye) would go from black to white in the process.

I'm still waiting for proof that the entire eye was black.

Originally posted by Nai
You may want to check the typical features of the Sith species here (since I'm lacking any other source at the moment). Anything that deviates from those was caused by interbreeding with the human Dark Jedi. Which can be completely ruled out for the maternal side of Vitiate's family (non force-sensitive completely) and is rather unlikely, considering the Human Dark Jedi where dwelling mostly on the main planets of the Empire (Ziost).

For the rest of your examples: There are still some remarkable features that destinquish the Sith rather clearly from human beings - and most of that are protuding bone spurs, which also wouldn't disappear through Dark Side corruption.

"Typical" features, sure. But I've posted proof that they're not always present. And just because his mother was a non-force sensitive doesn't mean she had no human or Dark Jedi blood in her. I mean, Theron Shan has Revan's blood in him and not a drop of sensitivity. Force power isn't always down to genetics, as proved by Vitiate utterly outclassing his father for instance.

Protruding bone structures are again, not always present. See my past pictures. And again, Vitiate is completely unique so we don't know how his features could be affected by the dark side.

Originally posted by Nai
Because it wasn't the death that weakened him, but the failed ritual he attempted. He was already in a weakened condition when the HoT confronted him - otherwise the Jedi wouldn't have survived the encounter.

Yet as I've said, Scourge opined that he would recover from that failed ritual rather quickly. He's spent months recovering from his death though.

Plus why would he not be weakened by the fight when the Wrath killed him? Sel Makor was using his power in the fight.

Originally posted by Nai
Because we haven't seen body parts falling off because of Dark Side corruption? Please stop speculating without the slightest bit of evidence pointing in the direction of your thoughts.

And we've never seen anyone live with 1400 years of darkside corruption either. And we actually have seen Nihilus' body completely disintegrate from his dark power.

Which btw, is a point against your theory about Vitiates body being unaffected because his power was tied up in his essence. So was Nihilus', yet his body was still effected by it. The reason Vitiate's wasn't destroyed similarly is only because he did it better than Nihilus did.

Originally posted by Nai
Do you think that Vitiate's original body has a higher midi-chlorian count than any of his Voice bodies, Neph, given his prodigal talent in the force? That appears to be likely. So it does matter which body he was using - you just didn't get the point.

I'd say he likely was more powerful than most or all of his Voice's. And no, I got your point fine. I just don't think it matters. We've seen many people using more power than their midi-chlorians allow. Celeste Morne drew power from Muur, Nox drew power from ghosts, Nihilus and the Exile grew much more powerful than they were originally, all nexuses allow for boosts etc etc.

Originally posted by Nai
The detail you have missed, dear Neph, is the message send by servant one before Vitiate's confrontation with the HoT:

"We are again aware of the Voice. Preparations are being made to secure a new host, but the rituals take time." - Servant One

Do you think they saw what would happen to Vitiate before, and so lied to the Wrath about securing a new host body, while letting Vitiate run lose in his original body?

I'm not entirely sure what you're saying here. I think you're assuming that they knew about Vitiate's plans. He could have told them to find him a new Voice to make them think he'd need one and keep them busy while really preparing for his ritual. After which he wouldn't need a Voice at all.

Originally posted by Nai
Except the two messages from Servant One, with the first one claiming that they are finding a new host body for the Emperor after the Wrath killed the Voss body?

That aside, Neph: You're stretching it with your claims. The thing facing the Jedi Strike Team is also exclusively reffered to as "the Emperor" and not "his Voice". When the Voice is trapped on Voss, the terms are used interchangeably throughout the source material, because trapping the Voice trapped the Emperor as well. And if the Voice wields Vitiate's power, why destinquish Emperor and Voice on all occassions?

Except for fallible in-universe opinions, yes.

We don't know if the being who fought the Strike Team was the Emperor or his Voice, so that's not a mark against my argument. As for the distinction, it is solely that one is the real Emperor and one is his Voice. They are two separate bodies, with the same consciousness. It is still correct to refer to one as the Voice and the other, the Emperor. As is done in the game.

T-T-Triple post!

Originally posted by Nai
I'm not discarding the opinion of the Lead Write but your interpretation of it, when pretty much everything suggests that you are wrong.

Feel free to offer up a counter interpretation.

Originally posted by Nai
Limited in use of that power, Neph - not in accumulating it. What point of my metaphor was it you didn't understand? There is his essence (water reservoir) that can get more powerful (filled more and more) but the outlet of that reservoir (original body / host bodies) determine how much water (Force energy) can flow from the reservoir to the outside.

What do you think why it needed the Hand to find a new Voice body for Vitiate, if the Sith Emperor could - technically - just possess anybody. Could it be, that he was dependant on a sufficient force connection of the host body (e.g. a high enough Midichlorian count) to use it? Could it be that this is the very same thinking, that made Sidious strife for taking over Anakin Solo as a host body for his Dark Side essence, instead of chosing one of his own pawns or some random force sensible child?

Denying that idea is pretty much equal to suggesting that Jaden Korr is more powerful than Marka Ragnos.

I understand your lame metaphor fine. It's just wrong, because people have both accumulated and used more power than their normal bodies would allow. Remember the Scepter of Ragnos turning normal people into Sith? It's not something even remotely beyond Vitiate to make use of more power than his body would normally allow, or change is body to allow it to channel more power than normal. I've already proven that. Vitiate "vastly increased his capacity as a practitioner of the Force." The ritual of Nathema didn't just drain a ton of power and stick it in Vitiate, his ability to make use of that power was elevated as well.

Sidious couldn't do the same thing because evidently he didn't know the same technique Vitiate used to increase his capacity as a Force practitioner. Also I thought it was because his clones were tampered with and sabotaged that they died so fast. So he felt he needed Anakin's body. As I recall he was able to to possess one of his Dark Acolytes without the man dying from the strain. As for why it takes a while to find suitable Voice's, who knows? Perhaps the rituals put a lot of strain on the body or something. I mean, they are completely hollowing it out.

Not really. Because nothing was done to Tavion to allow her to use the Force beyond her means, like Vitiate did.

Originally posted by Nai
Fan speculation, Neph? It has been stated in a variety of canon sources, that the ability to channel the Force is influenced by the midi-chlorian count of a Force sensitive. The more midi-chlorians, the more powerful the Force user.

Why the hell should that principle not apply, when a Force user is using another beings body? And why are you even suggesting that - against every evidence available?

Throughput DF:JK it is constantly mentioned by a variety of persons that absorbing power from the Valley would turn Jerec into a Force (demi)god. So instead being limited by his body, he was really omnipotent, but just suffered some bad luck. And, as said before, Ragnos is less powerful than a freaking padawan and wasn't limited by Tavion's body, which was not weaker than his original one, but also nigh death at the point at which he started possessing it.

Because there are numerous examples of people exceeding their midi-chlorian count through various means. All this talk of Tavion and you're forgetting that the whole plot of the game was her creating an army of Dark Jedi out of non-force sensitives. And in the game before that Desann did the same thing with Sith alchemy, absorbed the power of the Valley of the Jedi into his followers and later absorbed the Force nexus on Yavin 4.

Originally posted by Nai
Is his personal force power ever expanding, Neph?
The question isn't whether or not that did "weaken" him. The fact is, that some of his power stayed with his children and was, therefor, not accessible by his Voice. And I don't know if spreading your conscience over hundreds of bodies would really make you - as an individual - stronger.

Yes. "In return, the Emperor draws on his servants strength in the Force and body to feed his ever increasing power, leaving his servants withered and frail." (SWTORE pg. 163)

Originally posted by Nai
Why would the make him use his own body versus the HoT, when the entire point of making Voices was to keep his original body save. So he deviates from his well established modus operandi that worked just fine for three centuries, after his Servants proclaim that he won't do that (announcing that they are just finding a new host body for the Voice). He then proceedes to conduct the most dangerous force ritual of his career in his original body (instead of protecting it by using a host) and confronts the HoT with the same body (despite of the danger that such a confrontation meant and the fact that such a confrontation led to the creation of the Voice in the first place). Then he has that "original body" killed, with his Servant's glossing over that to explain his absense.

This just happened, so that Neph can be right.

It's not as if Vitiate wanted to fight the HoT. So it's not as if he chose to do that in his original body. He was inadvertently vulnerable.

Bluh. Fuuuuuuuuck replying again.