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who wins who dies?

Darach

Agen

Kolar

Agen Kolar most definately. His godstomp of Vos is above anything Darach has shown imo.

Gonna have to go with Agen on this one

Originally posted by Nephthys
Darach

Agen Kolar

Originally posted by Nephthys
Darach

Agen beats him as badly as he beat Quinlan.

Quinlan got dominated by pretty much every top tier guy he faced, and the Quinlan that Agen was beating up was conflicted as hell, for what it's worth. How Darach came across in the cinematic was far more impressive imo, he was for a good while dominating two far more game opponents simultaneously and showing some very high level combat skills. Darach solidly.

Originally posted by appletonia
Quinlan got dominated by pretty much every top tier guy he faced And there were negative circumstances around these defeats, which people elect to ignore.

Originally posted by appletonia
How Darach came across in the cinematic was far more impressive imo, he was for a good while dominating two far more game opponents simultaneously and showing some very high level combat skills. Darach solidly. Going by this logic Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker are trash fighters because of how they "came across" in the films. Vos doesn't look any less badass in the way he fights, and that has never been an important aspect of feats. Choreography =/= results.

Vos, whilst severely injured, and using a lightsaber form ill-suited to fighting multiple opponents, achieved the same result as Darach against two Morgukai warriors. Difference being, they both have dueling feats, unlike Vindican and that early version of Malgus. That feat alone is beyond Darach's, and Vos improved afterwards.

Originally posted by ILS
And there were negative circumstances around these defeats, which people elect to ignore.

Negative circumstances that weren't in place against Agen Kolar?

Originally posted by appletonia
Negative circumstances that weren't in place against Agen Kolar? You could argue Vos was fairly conflicted at the time, but it's still a fairly legitimate feat for Kolar.

Originally posted by ILS
Going by this logic Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker are trash fighters because of how they "came across" in the films. Vos doesn't look any less badass in the way he fights, and that has never been an important aspect of feats. Choreography =/= results.

Way to completely misunderstand what I meant by "came across", guy. I wasn't talking specifically about the content of the fight choreography, but rather the circumstance of how dominant he was against two high level opponents, and certain feats of skill such as dual wielding a double-bladed lightsaber with a single lightsaber, using a saber throw to parry an attack or redirecting one opponent's lightning offensively against his other opponent. The whole cinematic paints a picture of a very high level swordsman and combatant and Agen Kolar by contrast has little in the way of combat feats that compare.

Vos was practically a newly trained Jedi (he had suffered from amnesia and was being retrained) that was consistently portrayed as being very unrefined and rough around the edges, so it's to be fully expected that a master level Jedi would have no issue with him in a contest of technical swordplay (not to mention it was not Vos's ultimate intention to kill Agen but simply get away; while at the same time Agen didn't wish to kill Quinlan but capture him, clearly such an engagement would favour the more technical swordsman over the more wild one).

Originally posted by ILS
You could argue Vos was fairly conflicted at the time, but it's still a fairly legitimate feat for Kolar.

Quinlan Vos was a relatively undertrained Jedi that was portrayed as being a mostly wild swordsman, in a scenario where his main objective was to flee from Agen and where deep down he had no real intention to cause Agen any harm. Agen on the other hand was clearly the more technical swordsman, and who's objective was to capture Quinlan. Clearly, in the brief moments they did engage, the advantage in such a scenario would be with Agen Kolar, seeing as his skills would be more tailored to things such as disarming an opponent, and Quinlan typically did best when he was free to just unleash his fury and batter down his opponents.

Factor in the advantageous situation for Agen and Quinlan's relative lack of training and proven ability, I fail to see how it's a good feat.

Originally posted by appletonia
Way to completely misunderstand what I meant by "came across", guy. I wasn't talking specifically about the content of the fight choreography, but rather the circumstance of how dominant he was against two high level opponents, and certain feats of skill such as dual wielding a double-bladed lightsaber with a single lightsaber, using a saber throw to parry an attack or redirecting one opponent's lightning offensively against his other opponent. The whole cinematic paints a picture of a very high level swordsman and combatant and Agen Kolar by contrast has little in the way of combat feats that compare.
Two featless opponents. Wielding a saberstaff and saber simultaneously and deceiving Vindican by igniting the blade suddenly were decent, but not enough to surpass Kolar who has dismantled a fighter in Vos who already has better feats than Darach.

Vos wasn't a newly trained Jedi when he fought Kolar, lol. His amnesia arc took place several years before TPM - he fought Kolar well into the clone wars. There is nothing to suggest he is unrefined or rough around the edges, as you put it. He's a confirmed master of Ataru, to boot. Kolar curbstomped him because he's just that good. Also, on the point of him needing to be fully re-trained - this isn't true. If you had read the comic, you'd remember that when Vos first picks up a lightsaber again that he is able to fight based off of his muscle memory alone - so his fighting skill was still very much there.
Vos flat out states that it is too late for him and Kolar to be anything other than enemies, and then he attacks him. I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that Vos was running away from Agen, lol.
Splendid, a concession.
Proof?
He attacked Agen after declaring him an enemy, lol.
Indeed.
Neither had an advantage or disadvantage, lol.
Well when you conjure such factors out of thin air I could see why you wouldn't think much of the feat.

Well my mistake, I thought it was only a couple of years before the Clone Wars but I can now see that you're right and it was over ten years before.

Clearly my memory of that comic series is a little foggy, but was Quinlan not trying to convince both sides that he had turned to the darkside at that point? If so, it would be silly to take him fully at his word that he viewed Agen as an enemy, and yes, obviously the situation neccessitated that Quinlan briefly attack Agen head on simply because their paths were directly colliding, but when the opportunity presented itself did he not attempt to flee?

IIRC one of the main mysteries of that series was whether Quinlan had actually fallen, and if so how far, only for us to ultimately find out that he never completely fell and deep down had always been an agent of the light side. It would be silly to assume that even if in the moment he wasn't - on the surface - holding back against Agen, that he wouldn't have been extremely conflicted. As for how he fought in general, and again I am going off of memory here, the comic consistently shows him attacking in big open swings and usually with emotion (typically he would be wearing an expression of pure rage or anguish) which doesn't paint the picture of a particularly technical swordsman. A wild swordsman that fights with emotion does not excel in a situation where he's trying not to lethally harm his opponent, especially when his mind is divided between the fight and looking for an opportunity to escape at any given moment.

Agen on the other hand was a Jedi Master with a clear goal to capture Quinlan in mind and gives us no reason to doubt either his commintment to capturing him or the calmness of his mind. When you consider all the circumstances, the situation was clearly advantageous for Agen.

I think we should also remind ourselves that Quinlan Vos did very little in general to really solidify him as one of the best swordsmen of his era; again, he gets outclassed against all the top tier opponents he ever goes up against (Sora Bulq, Volfe Karkko and Agen Kolar), and is only able to ultimately defeat the former two after special circumstances lead to him achieving a deep clarity of mind and inner peace, which is not something he possessed against Agen; prior to achieving that state he was getting dominated by either. You take away those two victories, he demonstrates nothing to suggest he was a top tier Jedi. Your comparison of Quinlan's performance against two Morgukai warriors to Darach's performance against the two Sith Lords is quite frankly bizarre.

Anyone have a link to the comics? It would make this a lot easier, but until I am presented with one this is what I will say:

Assuming that it is indeed the case that Quinlan Vos was conflicted, fighting against Agen with wild swings and with emotion, was making active attempts to flee, and ultimately did not want to hurt Agen, then the advantage in that situation absolutely goes to Agen, assuming that he was entirely calm and fully commited to his mission of capturing Quinlan.

I will also point out that there seems to be a world of difference in how Quinlan Vos performs against top tier opponents depending on his mental state, which is the difference between getting completely dominated when conflicted, to being able to defeat them once achieving peace of mind. Assuming the Quinlan that Agen faced was conflicted, as I did in the above, then that Quinlan was very much a second rate opponent. Outside of those showings (defeating Sora and Volfe once achieving peace of mind), he does not ever demonstrate himself to be an elite swordsman or Jedi.

At this point ILS, I think it would be in your interests to start substantiating some of Quinlan Vos's feats (rather than making vague references to Morgukai soldiers) and establish that the Quinlan Agen faced wasn't at a situational and mental disadvantage. Until then, it can't be considered a great feat.

I can't believe this much text is required to prove that Agen Kolar/Vos > Kao.....

Dude, just read the fight. It's in my Vos respect thread, which you can find through my sig. I can't even begin to be bothered addressing everything else... you're getting so much wrong that it's not even worth it.

I'm gonna need specifics on where it is in your respect thread I'm afraid, and I'm guessing you probably only posted the scans of the fight itself and not the other pertinent scenes of the story, which is the context this thread actually needs right now.

Maybe it's best we end this here as you're clearly far too narrowminded and stubborn to possibly consider any alternative viewpoints to your own.

I've done the Quinlan Vos/Agen Kolar context dance literally dozens of times. I can't be bothered anymore, especially with someone who doesn't even remember key times/events in the comics he's referencing.

Which won't be a problem if someone posts a link to the comics.

Question: did you personally conclude that Quinlan Vos was in no way conflicted or otherwise disadvantaged in that engagement?

I've personally concluded that he could have been but there's no real way of knowing one way or the other.

Then why are you acting like it's definitively a great feat?

Because it is. Quinlan is always conflicted.

And similarly he always sucks ass. His only good feats were performed after achieving peace of mind, otherwise he's either getting dominated or operating on a mediocre level.

Oh dear lord.

Be quiet whore.

Originally posted by I Love Satsumas
I've done the Quinlan Vos/Agen Kolar context dance literally dozens of times. I can't be bothered anymore, especially with someone who doesn't even remember key times/events in the comics he's referencing.

Which is interesting considering you regularly debate Bane and haven't even read his trilogy! You sir are a naughty young lady. Less whisky and peanut butter and jelly sandwitches for you my oh so very well groomed friend.

Darach solidly, won't be much of a fight.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Agen Kolar most definately. His godstomp of Vos is above anything Darach has shown imo.
Subjectivity at its finest, Kolar have nothing on Darach. Vos's loss to him is indication of his lack of competence or development at that time, not a plus for Kolar who got blitzed by a real adversary.

@apple

Actually, I choose not to debate in Bane-related threads for that very reason.

But hey, you're now a confirmed follower/troll who will bump threads and try your best to rustle me. You have much to learn, but I can appreciate the work ethic you're putting up.

*implying Darach would do any better against Sidious*

Originally posted by ILS
Two featless opponents. Wielding a saberstaff and saber simultaneously and deceiving Vindican by igniting the blade suddenly were decent, but not enough to surpass Kolar who has dismantled a fighter in Vos who already has better feats than Darach.
Two feat-less opponents? How about focus on (known) facts of the characters involved? Malgus, even at this point, was among the greatest warriors of the Empire. And Vindican, at this point, was Malgus's tutor with advanced mastery of the Force.

Show me an example of Kolar matching the sophistication and dueling ability on par with that of Darach. Do you realize how difficult that maneuver was? I guess not. It was so difficult that you won't find matching examples in the entirely of the mythos.

Vos have better feats then Darach, fantastic. Do fans of PT era characters ever tire of BS and subjectivity? I guess not.

You focus on the context of information that you present. How competent was Vos at the time of his confrontation against Kolar? Was his loss in part due to error of judgment on his part? And other reasons.

Individuals grow and change with passage of time. Satele Shan was a chump in Return cinematic and a titan in Hope cinematic, massive growth in power and skill during the span of two events.

Originally posted by ILS
*implying Darach would do any better against Sidious*

I'd imagine Darach would fall somewhere between Mace Windu and Kit Fisto in terms of how they performed against Sidious. I personally have him at the very least around ROTS Obi-Wan's level. He wouldn't get utterly blitzed like Agen.

You seem to massively underrate him for some reason, when he was an absolute badass that was performing shit we've never seen before. There's no shame in losing to a young Malgus. There's much more shame in getting utterly outclassed by a top tier movie character, movie characters being among the weakest Force Users in the mythos.

@guy with alternating caps in username

I thought Kolar showed a fair amount of sophistication when he nearly cut Vos' arm off...

There isn't much to support the notion that Vos was severely hindered in his fight with Kolar. People are just running with that idea to detriment Kolar cus Vos is Dark jedi so hindered lul

Originally posted by ILS
*implying Darach would do any better against Sidious*
Yes he would, much better actually.

Darach isn't some chump, he have solid feats under his belt with one of the most impressive combat skills ever witnessed in the mythos.

Originally posted by ILS
@apple

Actually, I choose not to debate in Bane-related threads

Factually incorrect, if you're speaking in absolute terms.

Dis thread

Originally posted by ILS
@guy with alternating caps in username

I thought Kolar showed a fair amount of sophistication when he nearly cut Vos' arm off...
And what is so sophisticated about this?

Because whilst Vos was severely injured/fatigued, two Morgukai warriors (both of which individually gave Tholme/Secura all they could handle, and became the genetic basis for Dooku's army), failed to penetrate his guard for pages on end until Vos beheaded one, giving the other an opening. Vos has also stomped two Dark Jedi on a nexus without even intending to kill them whilst they both went all out. Either of those feats, going by objectivity and evidence, are better than Darach's feat, even if only slightly.

And Kolar stomped Vos.

NEWS:

Malgus, as of Return, was already among the greatest warriors of the Empire.

Originally posted by ILS
Because whilst Vos was severely injured/fatigued, two Morgukai warriors (both of which individually gave Tholme/Secura all they could handle, and became the genetic basis for Dooku's army), failed to penetrate his guard for pages on end until Vos beheaded one, giving the other an opening. Vos has also stomped two Dark Jedi on a nexus without even intending to kill them whilst they both went all out. Either of those feats, going by objectivity and evidence, are better than Darach's feat, even if only slightly.

And Kolar stomped Vos.
And what is so impressive about Tholme and Secura?

I am sure that Vindican and Malgus would have field day with the mooks that you are trying to hype.

Satele Shan was a fully trained Jedi at the time of Return and she was a chump in comparison to both Malgus and Vindican during this time.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
NEWS:

Malgus, as of Return, was already among the greatest warriors of the Empire. Source? That's a pretty good accolade if it's true, which would in turn elevate Kao higher than I had him before.

Originally posted by ILS
Because whilst Vos was severely injured/fatigued, two Morgukai warriors (both of which individually gave Tholme/Secura all they could handle, and became the genetic basis for Dooku's army), failed to penetrate his guard for pages on end until Vos beheaded one, giving the other an opening. Vos has also stomped two Dark Jedi on a nexus without even intending to kill them whilst they both went all out. Either of those feats, going by objectivity and evidence, are better than Darach's feat, even if only slightly.

And Kolar stomped Vos.

Tholme and Secura, and those two Dark Jedi you're referring to, similarly never really established themselves to be particularly great either. You clearly have a very heightened view of the capabilities of Vos and his contemporaries. Aside from achieving an almost zone like state and being able to defeat Sora Bulq and Volfe Karkko, he gets dominated by every top tier guy he faces and even relative lightweights like K'Kruhk have been competetive with him under similar cirucmstances he was in when facing Agen.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
And what is so impressive about Tholme and Secura?

I am sure that Vindican and Malgus would have field day with the mooks that you are trying to hype. Tholme stomped something like seven anzati Force sensitives who had pretty decent training, and Aayla scraped a win over Aurra Sing, who is "one of the deadliest beings in the galaxy", has given TPM Qui-Gon/Kenobi bother ect.

ok

Originally posted by ILS
Source? That's a pretty good accolade if it's true, which would in turn elevate Kao higher than I had him before.
Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

Satele Shan was also a well-trained Jedi at the time of the events of Return, and she was utterly outclassed.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

Satele Shan was also a well-trained Jedi at the time of the events of Return, and she was utterly outclassed. Ah, yes, I've seen that before but I actually overlooked the "even before the great war" part. Hmm... this actually might make Malgus more skilled than I had him before, because of the years he had to improve during the war.

Originally posted by ILS
Tholme stomped something like seven anzati Force sensitives who had pretty decent training, and Aayla scraped a win over Aurra Sing, who is "one of the deadliest beings in the galaxy", has given TPM Qui-Gon/Kenobi bother ect.

ok

I believe Aayla defeated Aurra Sing in a conventional lightsaber duel, which isn't really all that impressive considering Aurra Sing is typically dangerous when using the tricks and weapons of a Bounty Hunter and is basically untrained in the Jedi arts as far as I know. I don't think many would expect a group of Anzati warriors to be a match for a Jedi Master. Still not seeing how these characters, compared to elite Jedi Masters, in any way stand out.

Victory is ours! aheehehehihohohhehe

Originally posted by ILS
Tholme stomped something like seven anzati Force sensitives who had pretty decent training, and Aayla scraped a win over Aurra Sing, who is "one of the deadliest beings in the galaxy", has given TPM Qui-Gon/Kenobi bother ect.

ok
That level of competence is expected from (any) Jedi Master. It is not an impressive feat by Jedi standards.

As for Secura, she was just a padawan at the time of her confrontation with Vos. On top of this, she had also suffered from amnesia earlier and did not remembered much about her knowledge of Jedi arts. She had to be retrained in the ways of the Jedi afterwards prior to her ascension to Knighthood. She dealt with Sing much later, during her prime.

Nice try at concealing the context and ground realities of the characters that you chose to hype. Next time, try to be more open and honest.

This thread is giving me major lols.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
That level of competence is expected from (any) Jedi Master. It is not an impressive feat by Jedi standards.

As for Secura, she was just a padawan at the time of her confrontation with Vos. On top of this, she had also suffered from amnesia earlier and did not remembered much about her knowledge of Jedi arts. She had to be retrained in the ways of the Jedi afterwards prior to her ascension to Knighthood. She dealt with Sing much later, during her prime.

Nice try at concealing the context and ground realities of the characters that you chose to hype. Next time, try to be more open and honest. Of course not

Who mentioned her confrontation with Vos (they had two, by the way)? I referenced Vos fighting the two Morgukai, whose feats stem from their performances against Aayla and Tholme. Not once did I mention Vos fighting Aayla as a feat, much less attempt to conceal context about the showing. Did you read my post?

Originally posted by ILS
Of course not

Who mentioned her confrontation with Vos (they had two, by the way)? I referenced Vos fighting the two Morgukai, whose feats stem from their performances against Aayla and Tholme. Not once did I mention Vos fighting Aayla as a feat, much less attempt to conceal context about the showing. Did you read my post?
Ok.

But Tholme's loss to Morgukai is not a feat of him, rather embarrassing development. As I pointed out before, Tholme isn't impressive by Jedi Master standards as a warrior. Secura was a Jedi Knight at this time but much earlier then her prime.

Not trying to imply that Morgukai are lame, they are competent. But a competent Jedi should be able to take them without difficulty.

Of course it isn't a feat for him, it's a feat for the Morgukai. And sorry, but just asserting that the characters I'm debating for are unimpressive isn't really an argument.

When do you have Aayla's prime, exactly? I don't see what relevance that has. She was at the same level of capability when she fought both the Morgukai and Aurra.

In your opinion - I'm just going by feats, not what I think a "competent Jedi" should be able to do.

Originally posted by ILS
Of course it isn't a feat for him, it's a feat for the Morgukai. And sorry, but just asserting that the characters I'm debating for are unimpressive isn't really an argument.

When do you have Aayla's prime, exactly? I don't see what relevance that has. She was at the same level of capability when she fought both the Morgukai and Aurra.

In your opinion - I'm just going by feats, not what I think a "competent Jedi" should be able to do.
I am keeping a lid on the magnitude of hype that you bestowed to Vos and Kolar in this thread.

Vos's performance against Morgukai is comparable to Darach's performance against Sith Lords? You kidding? This is my point.

A reasonably competent Jedi should be able to take Morgukai. The real champions among the Jedi would absolutely stomp them.

Vos have nothing on Darach. Same goes for Kolar.

Nobody's saying the Morgukai are overly unimpressive; they're clearly well trained and highly dedicated to combat, and have useful tricks against Jedi such as the use of cortosis equipment and weaponry, but the fact remains that they are not Jedi or Sith/Dark Jedi, they're not even Force Sensitive as far as I know. The default position is naturally that they aren't comparable to high level, elite Jedi Masters. Quite frankly all you've managed to do for Quinlan Vos and co. is establish a vague hierarchy of mediocrity.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I am keeping a lid on the magnitude of hype that you bestowed to Vos and Kolar in this thread.

Vos's performance against Morgukai is comparable to Darach's performance against Sith Lords? You kidding? This is my point.

A reasonably competent Jedi should be able to take Morgukai. The real champions among the Jedi would absolutely stomp them.

Vos have nothing on Darach. Same goes for Kolar. ok

Er, I guess. Vindican is featless and Malgus only has an accolade, albeit a pretty good one. The Morgukai have decent dueling feats, better than what Vindican has going for him and more than an accolade can provide. What makes it especially impressive is that Vos had been fighting for hours prior, survived a ship crash, was stabbed through the torso by numerous shuriken, and was using a lightsaber form (Ataru) which is poor against multiple opponents, and still managed to hold his own, and end up killing one of them.

You keep throwing around your own estimations of how good characters are in relation to what "a reasonably competent Jedi" or a "master Jedi" could do. I don't really care for this.

Of course the real champions of the Jedi would trash the Morgukai. You're missing the point - Vos held his own against them under very poor circumstances, and to boot, Darach couldn't be considered one of the best duelists around either.

Darach was the Jedi Battlemaster.

I'm pretty sure that's an indication of being considered one of the best duelists around.

Of his time, yes.

This is me, Nephthys and SW Legend:

iLSLnmI1iJw

Originally posted by ILS
ok

Er, I guess. Vindican is featless and Malgus only has an accolade, albeit a pretty good one. The Morgukai have decent dueling feats, better than what Vindican has going for him and more than an accolade can provide. What makes it especially impressive is that Vos had been fighting for hours prior, survived a ship crash, was stabbed through the torso by numerous shuriken, and was using a lightsaber form (Ataru) which is poor against multiple opponents, and still managed to hold his own, and end up killing one of them.
So Morgukai are now a match for a Sith Lord because they forced a mediocre Jedi Master to flee?

Vindican effortlessly tanked a rocket (fired at him by Jace Malcom) and gave Darach decent challenge. His lightning casts overwhelmed both Malgus and Satele Shan when they found themselves on the receiving end of such power. Darach had to perform incredibly sophisticated maneuverers to counter his lightning and outduel him,

Originally posted by ILS
ok

Er, I guess. Vindican is featless and Malgus only has an accolade, albeit a pretty good one. The Morgukai have decent dueling feats, better than what Vindican has going for him and more than an accolade can provide. What makes it especially impressive is that Vos had been fighting for hours prior, survived a ship crash, was stabbed through the torso by numerous shuriken, and was using a lightsaber form (Ataru) which is poor against multiple opponents, and still managed to hold his own, and end up killing one of them.
So Morgukai are now a match for a Sith Lord because they forced a mediocre Jedi Master to flee? The same Jedi whom Count Dooku literally stomped in a confrontation.

Vindican effortlessly tanked a rocket (fired at him by Jace Malcom) and gave Darach decent challenge. His lightning overwhelmed both Malgus and Satele Shan when they found themselves on its receiving end. Darach had to perform incredibly sophisticated maneuverers to deflect his lightning and outduel him, the battle was otherwise a stalemate.

Vindican was a proper Sith Lord, not some chump whom you would dismiss as nothing or an amateur.

And what do you mean by "Malgus only has an accolade"? You think that this statement is meaningless? You conveniently forgot to consider the fact that Malgus actually killed Darach.

Malgus's victory over Darach adds to the credibility of his accolade or reputation of being one of the greatest warriors of the Empire even during his younger days.

---

As for the Vos, what do you mean by Vos had been fighting for hours prior to his confrontation with Morgukai? You trying to assert that Vos was pulling off Revan on the Star Forge against hordes of Sith forces? His combat experience was that taxing? Utter nonsense.

As I pointed out before, Vos's performance against Morgukai is a non-factor in this thread.

Originally posted by ILS
You keep throwing around your own estimations of how good characters are in relation to what "a reasonably competent Jedi" or a "master Jedi" could do. I don't really care for this.

Of course the real champions of the Jedi would trash the Morgukai. You're missing the point - Vos held his own against them under very poor circumstances, and to boot, Darach couldn't be considered one of the best duelists around either.
I am trying to knock sense into you. You are exaggerating Vos and his accomplishments with extremely lame arguments and extreme subjectivity.

Vindican would slaughter Vos and many Jedi. The opponent needs to be as powerful, skilled and well-armed as Darach to outcompete him.

Darach's martial abilities:-

Darach was actually the Jedi Order's battlemaster. He performed incredibly sophisticated maneuvers during his dueling efforts to cope with two Sith Lords during combat, managed to impale one and overwhelm the other for a while, one of the greatest warriors of the Empire.

Darach's dueling feats include masterful use of double-bladed lightsaber along with a normal lightsaber with great precision and speed. The technical skill required to pull of this magnitude of sophistication and finesse is insane and rarely duplicated in the entirety of mythos.

It is (officially) difficult to use a double-bladed lightsaber in single combat in masterful ways. Now try to imagine the difficulty of using a double-bladed lightsaber along with another in masterful ways. Darach literally redefined dueling arts.

You think that Vos and Kolar hold a candle to Darach's mastery in lightsaber combat? Not even close. In-fact, majority doesn't.

Darach's raw power:-

Darach lifted and hurled a multi-tonned Starship component like a missile in the air towards an opponent. He also send a Sith Lord packing across the hall with a single blast of power.

Neither Vos and nor Kolar have demonstrated this level of raw power.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Darach was the Jedi Battlemaster.

I'm pretty sure that's an indication of being considered one of the best duelists around.

So was Drallig....

Drallig was old and weak. Darach is very strong with the Force and physically excellent. Plus no one doubts Dralligs skill. Mastery of all forms is impressive.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
So was Drallig....
Drallig had technical knowledge but Darach was full package.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Plus no one doubts Dralligs skill.

http://s3-ec.buzzfed.com/static/enhanced/web03/2012/8/21/16/anigif_enhanced-buzz-29482-1345581337-28.gif


Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Drallig had technical knowledge but Darach was full package.

I know, just saying that being a battlemaster doesn't equate true skill. Drallig is the best example. but yeah. Happy New Years eve you two

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
http://s3-ec.buzzfed.com/static/enhanced/web03/2012/8/21/16/anigif_enhanced-buzz-29482-1345581337-28.gif

?

Originally posted by Nephthys
?

That was directed at the "Plus no one doubts Dralligs skill" edited

Happy new year to you (Fated) and other participants in this thread.

Correct.
Let's see.. deflection is irrelevant, lightning is irrelevant, giving Darach a decent fight doesn't help Darach in the feats department, and.. Darach isn't special despite his supreme sophistication. That covers that. Straw man.
I meant what I said. And another straw man - I didn't say it was meaningless. And I "conveniently" didn't mention it because the only reason Malgus is being mentioned is to discuss Darach's skill - not Malgus'. You keep bringing up irrelevant points about other characters. Try focusing on the thread.
Once again, I mean what I said. And again, irrelevant point about irrelevant characters.

It's not a non-factor just because your argument is benefited from it being so.
Yeah..... I was aware of this. Doesn't counter my argument. ...great. Although what I find funny is my apparent use of "lame arguments and extreme subjectivity", despite you presuming the use of a lightsaber and saberstaff at the same time elevates Darach as high as you think it does.
Yeah.... being able to use a lightsaber/staff combo elevates Darach into the upper echelons of duelists in the mythos. Definitely.
Well, Vos has decent power showings like levitating a fairly large boulder over a far distance for a long time, even after being stabbed, and using protection/barrier to survive a ship crash and explosion, but I agree Darach's TK is likely above his. Kolar's use of the Force is pretty basic and unexplored. IMO though, Kolar will out-duel Darach before being hit by any multi-tonned starship components.

lol @ a character who has one feat of dying being > Kolar.

Darach > Kolar.

Originally posted by Nephthys
TOR >>>>>>>>> PT.

I just call it like I see it.

And you see things incorrectly 100% of the time

https://38.media.tumblr.com/f02788e2a738ef33a1bdcb6a9cdb2905/tumblr_nb6g5s0ezA1ru8wu1o1_500.gif

emmmmmaaaa stoooneeeee

Originally posted by ILS
Correct.
Morgukai are as good as Sith Lords?

Originally posted by ILS
Let's see.. deflection is irrelevant, lightning is irrelevant, giving Darach a decent fight doesn't help Darach in the feats department, and.. Darach isn't special despite his supreme sophistication. That covers that.
This is actually Straw Man.

Irrelevant compared to what?

And Darach isn't special because you said so? SWTOR developers wasted millions on depicted an average joe, right?

Originally posted by ILS
Straw man
No, its a reminder that Vindican isn't a mere apprentice or padawan. He is Sith Lord and this means something. It is not wise to compare mooks with Sith Lords.

Originally posted by ILS
I meant what I said. And another straw man - I didn't say it was meaningless. And I "conveniently" didn't mention it because the only reason Malgus is being mentioned is to discuss Darach's skill - not Malgus'. You keep bringing up irrelevant points about other characters. Try focusing on the thread.
Another Straw Man from you actually. You drunk? If yes then get back to me when you are sober because right now you are not making an iota of sense or able to follow the flow of the debate and reasoning behind a presented point.

Malgus is much stronger and superior warrior then Vos and Kolar even as of Return.

Originally posted by ILS
Once again, I mean what I said. And again, irrelevant point about irrelevant characters.
You mean what you said? Should I give a damn?

Present a valid argument or concede. I don't appreciate arguments for the sake of arguments and/or baseless arguments in my debates.

Again, explain to me what battle Vos was busy participating in before he confronted Morgukai? He arrived on Kintan and used the Force to bolster Secura during her confrontation with Morgukai from a distance and faced some droids. Their wasn't any grand battle that Vos was participating that really drained him of his energy by the time he confronted Morgukai.

Originally posted by ILS
It's not a non-factor just because your argument is benefited from it being so.
If Vos had defeated a powerful Force-user such as a Sith Lord, you would have an argument. So far, you have nothing concrete for a valid argument in favor of Vos.

Morgukai aren't Sith Lords and Vos managed to kill only one, he got shot by the other whom Secura killed to save her Jedi Master. Vos would have perished, if his apprentice had not arrived on time to save him. So much for his supposed victory over Morgukai. As I pointed out earlier, try to be more honest in your assertions.

Originally posted by ILS
Yeah..... I was aware of this. Doesn't counter my argument.
Earlier, you said that Darach isn't among the best swordsman of his era. You have been proven wrong, not surprisingly.

Originally posted by ILS
...great. Although what I find funny is my apparent use of "lame arguments and extreme subjectivity", despite you presuming the use of a lightsaber and saberstaff at the same time elevates Darach as high as you think it does.
It actually does.

A specialized variant of the iconic Jedi weapon, double-bladed lightsabers utilize two emitters within a single lengthened hilt to generate blades at each end. These weapons allow the Jedi to defend and strike rapidly in combat. But for all the lethal efficiency, double-bladed lightsabers are difficult to wield and require specialized training to avoid risking severe personal injury. (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)

Not only Darach utilized a double-bladed lightsaber in combat masterfully but he went a step above this by coupling it with another lightsaber and still being able to use both in masterful ways. Such level of combat ability is really telling about combat prowess and mastery of Darach in lightsaber dueling arts.

Neither Vos and nor Kolar match Darach in expertise in lightsaber dueling arts. Deal with it.

Originally posted by ILS
Yeah.... being able to use a lightsaber/staff combo elevates Darach into the upper echelons of duelists in the mythos. Definitely.
It does. Deal with it.

Originally posted by ILS
Well, Vos has decent power showings like levitating a fairly large boulder over a far distance for a long time, even after being stabbed, and using protection/barrier to survive a ship crash and explosion, but I agree Darach's TK is likely above his. Kolar's use of the Force is pretty basic and unexplored. IMO though, Kolar will out-duel Darach before being hit by any multi-tonned starship components.
Right....

Kolar is so powerful and skilled that an Hutt intimidated him and some small beings overwhelmed him. He failed to arrest Vos and beat some defenseless mooks. Such power and skill indeed.

Darach is realistically on a different TIER in comparison to Kolar, much higher. And I am having serious doubt about your rationality and evaluation skills.

Morkugai that can drive off famous Jedi Masters are stronger than Sith Lords, yes.

What actual feats does Darach have other than the fight where he dies?

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Morkugai that can drive off famous Jedi Masters are stronger than Sith Lords, yes.
They are equal to Sith Emperor I guess.

Fame doesn't implies skill and power.

A Sith Lord literally owned that Jedi Master whom Morkugai forced to flee.

Originally posted by Trocity
What actual feats does Darach have other than the fight where he dies?
Isn't the trailer enough?

And he died doing something. Not like fodder.

Originally posted by Trocity
What actual feats does Kolar have other than the fight where he dies?

Again, isn't the trailer enough?

He changed it into Kolar.

Oh, that.

He beat some thugs.

The difference is, Kolar was killed by the most powerful Sith Lord in history.

Darach was slaughtered by an apprentice.

Dat TOR wank doe!

Originally posted by Trocity
The difference is, Kolar was killed by the most powerful Sith Lord in history.
It wasn't even a contest. Why bother highlighting it?

Originally posted by Trocity
Darach was slaughtered by an apprentice.

Dat TOR wank doe!
Some apprentice:

Even before the Great War, Malgus was widely regarded as one of the greatest warriors in the Empire. (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
They are equal to Sith Emperor I guess.

Fame doesn't implies skill and power.

A Sith Lord literally owned that Jedi Master whom Morkugai forced to flee.

Said Sith Lord was the most powerful Jedi Master to rise in centuries, and was one of history's greatest Lords of the Sith, and consistently goes toe to toe with the Champion of the Order and the greatest foe the darkness has ever known. Getting owned by him is hardly a bad thing. I could just as easily lowball Tol Bragga because of how effortlessly he was dismissed by Vitiate, as if the latter was an average Sith Lord.

Hell, I could go on about how badly Kao was beaten by Malgus, too.

Fact of the matter is, the likes of the guy who took on two of these Morkugai Jedi Hunters at once was dominated by Agen Kolar--Kao and Vindican have little to compete with that.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Said Sith Lord was the most powerful Jedi Master to rise in centuries, and was one of history's greatest Lords of the Sith, and consistently goes toe to toe with the Champion of the Order and the greatest foe the darkness has ever known. Getting owned by him is hardly a bad thing. I could just as easily lowball Tol Bragga because of how effortlessly he was dismissed by Vitiate, as if the latter was an average Sith Lord.
I don't need a reminder about how good Count Dooku is. Sith Lords are typically very strong.

Getting owned by him is hardly a bad thing? What are your standards for bad?

By virtue of being a Jedi Master, he won't be a mook, but he is a mook by Jedi Order standards. He have no hype or feats to suggest otherwise.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Hell, I could go on about how badly Kao was beaten by Malgus, too.
Lot more happened in this duel earlier then what you mentioned. Malgus's victory didn't came easily.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Fact of the matter is, the likes of the guy who took on two of these Morkugai Jedi Hunters at once was dominated by Agen Kolar--Kao and Vindican have little to compete with that.
Oh yes, the same BS again.

Vos didn't beat both Morkugai, he killed only one but was overwhelmed by the other and was saved by his apprentice.

And I have the comic representing the clash between Kolar and Vos. Kolar actually failed in his mission irrespective of his boastings.

Here is one of the developments:

http://i58.tinypic.com/sgjv28.png

So powerful.

Darach soundly, took of Vincidan and even Malgus who would both stomp Kolar (who is basicly video game fooder in front of a top tier)

lol @ Vindican stomping Kolar.

The TOR wank in this thread is astounding. Even the trailer-fodder get wanked beyond all belief.

Originally posted by ILS
The TOR wank in this thread is astounding. Even the trailer-fodder get wanked beyond all belief.
No, PT wank in this thread is astounding.

Vindican is trailer fodder?

I accept your concession.

The best Vindican really has going for him is being the best apprentice of... Oh, what was his name? Darth Ikkoral or something? He was a flashpoint boss, Red Reaper I think.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
The best Vindican really has going for him is being the best apprentice of... Oh, what was his name? Darth Ikkoral or something? He was a flashpoint boss, Red Reaper I think.
I remember Darth Ikkoral, very powerful, one of the best in the Empire.

Vindican was stalemating Darach until the latter acquired Shan's double-bladed lightsaber and masterfully utilized multiple blades to gain advantage. Darach had to perform incredibly sophisticated maneuvers to outduel Vindican. Therefore, Vindican is not incompetent but Darach is evidently extraordinarily competent in martial aspects of combat.

Another interesting revelation:

Master Satele studied under several different masters in her youth. Her childhood teacher was Ngani Zho, a wise and kind man who guided Satele's early development and showed her ways of the Force. As an adolescent, Satele trained with Battlemaster Kao Cen Darah. It was he who taught Satele to fight with a double-bladed lightsaber and guided her through the final trails to become a full-fledged Jedi Knight. (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)

Satele Shan was actually a well-trained Jedi Knight as of Return. And yet, both Sith Lords utterly outclassed her.

Therefore, Return cinematic makes it clear that Vindican is well above well-trained Jedi Knights in competence and power.

I don't get the lowballing of Vindican. He is not the focus of Return cinematic, Malgus is.

In-fact, Malgus also seems like a looser in Hope cinematic, but this is an issue of representation. The Third Lesson literature makes it clear that Malgus was very powerful even as of Hope.

Vindican isn't incompetent or weak, it is just that he ran out of luck during Return.