Darth Zannah vs Maul Brothers

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WildBantha88
who wins who dies?

Emperordmb
I'm going with Zannah here. She has the defensive capabilities to defend against them in a duel, and neither could cope with her illusions.

NewGuy01
Maul probably could solo this.

WildBantha88
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Maul probably could solo this. Maul defiantly couldn't. I doubt he could penetrate he defenses out right since even Bane couldn't do that and the illusions would destroy his mind.

Addressing this battle though, Zannah plays weaker opponents against there stronger allies so Savage would be bringing Maul down in this fight

Nephthys
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Maul probably could solo this.

That's so dumb, lol.

Q99
Hm, I'm not sure... one on one she could lock down a foe with sorcery and memory walk. Two is tricky- it'll be hard for her to defend against their combined power in a duel.

It may be a 'brothers win, but Opress dies' situation or the like. Or just a 'could go either way' fight.

Emperordmb
Originally posted by Q99
Hm, I'm not sure... one on one she could lock down a foe with sorcery and memory walk. Two is tricky- it'll be hard for her to defend against their combined power in a duel.

It may be a 'brothers win, but Opress dies' situation or the like. Or just a 'could go either way' fight.
Well she is capable of placing more clumsy duelists in the way of more experienced ones, and she is very good at exploiting openings in her opponents' techniques.

Savage being a clumsy duelist, however effective in most other situations, really isn't well specced for combat against Zannah.

Nephthys
Zannah would put Savage in a coma with a flick of her wrist imo. He can't defend against lightning, he won't know how to defend against that.

Zannah is faster and more powerful in every way than Maul. She'd take him apart.

DarthAnt66
Savage's raw strength plows through Zaanah's defenses as Maul sits back and takes a day off.

Nephthys
Zannah would probably blitz him.

DarthAnt66
If Dooku/Skywalker couldn't, she can't.

DarthAnt66
Unlikely...but maybe.

Nephthys
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
If Dooku/Skywalker couldn't, she can't.

Shes as fast as Bane who's faster than either, so um, yeah?

DarthAnt66
She was struggling to keep up with Bane.
She is not his equal in speed.

Nephthys
I don't think she did, nope.

Except that she reacts to him multiple times at equal to his own speed. Also she was able to visually follow lightning as it passed her, so shes pretty damn fast just from that feat.

WildBantha88
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
She was struggling to keep up with Bane.
She is not his equal in speed. She could defend against him so that means she is atleast close, and that is pretty damn fast.

DarthAnt66
"The next few seconds were a blur as Zannah relied purely on instincts honed over twenty years to parry the wave of blows..."
She is barely able to contend. ^

Q99
The coordination between Maul and Opress was quite good, so I don't think they'll trip over each other even if Zannah tries to encourage it. They didn't against Sids, after all.

WildBantha88
Chanes nothing, the fact that Bane couldn't blitz her means she is fast enough to defend against her, even if barely, So she is really damn fast

Nephthys
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
"The next few seconds were a blur as Zannah relied purely on instincts honed over twenty years to parry the wave of blows..."
She is barely able to contend. ^

Thats when shes on the floor and he's breaking her freaking ribs. Of course she had to work hard.

Emperordmb
Originally posted by Q99
The coordination between Maul and Opress was quite good, so I don't think they'll trip over each other even if Zannah tries to encourage it. They didn't against Sids, after all.
Well either way, Neph makes a valid point here:
Originally posted by Nephthys
Zannah would put Savage in a coma with a flick of her wrist imo. He can't defend against lightning, he won't know how to defend against that.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Nephthys
Thats when shes on the floor and he's breaking her freaking ribs. Of course she had to work hard.
Which is why I don't see why Savage can't do the same. His strength is insane.

Nephthys
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Which is why I don't see why Savage can't do the same. His strength is insane.

She tripped. He didn't force her to the ground. Savage won't do the same because he's not fast enough.

She blocks each of Banes attacks with no problem with speed at all at the start of the fight. Its even said that she blocked each of his initial series of blows 'easily.' Shes "easily" around his level in terms of speed.

DarthAnt66
Even if she is on Bane's speed, which I still doubt, she is not going to be able to speedblitz a duo that not even Palps could.

Nephthys
Palps was toying with them. At the end of the duel he's able to ramp up his speed beyond what Maul can keep up with. There's no suggestion that he couldn't blitz them if he wasn't trolling them for giggles.

DarthAnt66
At the end Maul can contend fur 10ish seconds. wink

Nephthys
The only reason he and Savage lasted 1 second is because Sidious let them.

Either way, cool, so maybe Maul can last a full 15 against Zannah. thumb up

You know, if she doesn't just kick his ass with the Force.

NewGuy01
Hah, Zannah would be dismissed like a child by Palpatine be it in a duel or a contest of the Force.

Nephthys
That's hilarious

ly wrong.

carthage
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Hah, Zannah would be dismissed like a child by any high tier Dark lord of the Sith be it in a duel or a contest of the Force.

NewGuy01
Nah, I wouldn't go that far.

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by Nephthys
Shes as fast as Bane who's faster than either, so um, yeah?


What is Bane's best speed feat?

Nephthys
I'm pretty sure you already know, bro.

Moving so fast a room of Sith couldn't see shit and took a few seconds to register his movement.
Appearing to wield a dozen lightsabers to Zannah in RoT.
Almost blitzing the Strike Team
Keeping up with BM Raskta who appeared to be in multiple places at once to Farfalla.
Blocking and dodging every raindrop in a storm for 20 mins.

Emperordmb
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
What is Bane's best speed feat?
http://thesithoutcasts.forumotion.com/t106-darth-bane-s-speed

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm pretty sure you already know, bro.

Moving so fast a room of Sith couldn't see shit and took a few seconds to register his movement.
Appearing to wield a dozen lightsabers to Zannah in RoT.
Almost blitzing the Strike Team
Keeping up with BM Raskta who appeared to be in multiple places at once to Farfalla.
Blocking and dodging every raindrop in a storm for 20 mins.


He's fast but not out of Dooku's league and not much faster than Maul.

1) I thought the room was full of apprentices? Also, Kit has moved faster than Kenobi was able to track, IIRC. Kit is not as fast as Dooku. Taking a few seconds to register Bane's movements seemingly suggests that the sith weren't in a battle state of mind, which requires that the force users slow down the speed of time.

2) Dooku appeared to be everywhere at once to Kenobi. Before you call it out as being hyperbole, it is somewhat; it was an exaggerated way of saying Kenobi was having a hard time keeping up with Dooku's movements, which involved Dooku's entire body, and not just his lightsaber. The statement actually makes more sense than Bane appearing to wield a dozen lightsabers, unless you believe Zannah stood their and actually counted twelve sabers mid-combat? Now it's easy to see half a dozen and a half a dozen and automatically calculate a full dozen in your head within a few seconds time, but that's if the objects are all stationary, which wouldn't be the case in a saber combat, unless Bane was standing there moving his saber back and forth in a single sequence. No, Bane would be trying to move his saber to attack any opening in Zannah's defense and at Zannah's saber to try to unbalance her, which would most likely be more than twelve spots worth of targets. Sounds like the author had Zannah throwing out a random number to convince the reader that she was having trouble keeping up with Bane's saber with her eyes alone, and that she was seeing a bunch of after images. In both cases, Zannah and Kenobi were having trouble keeping up with their opponents speed with the naked eye alone. However, Dooku's feat seems more impressive, IMO.

3) I'm more impressed with Dooku outpacing and blocking the attacks from three nightsister simultaneously (including Ventress), while drugged and blind, via precognition alone. While the nightsister weren't amped, it's Dooku's handicap that impresses me more, as he didn't have any advantages as Bane did against the strike team. Furthermore, I thought the passage suggested that Bane would have cut a few of them down in quick succession, which doesn't necessarily translate in blitzing them all.

4) Wasn't Bane fully covered in orbalisks by that point, which wouldn't require that Bane use up much speed for defensive use? He'd be free to go all out offensively.

5) What was Bane wearing at the time? The passage notes that Bane managed to successfully prevent the rain from touching his exposed flesh only. Regardless, it's not any greater than Vader moving his saber fast enough to form shields or block waves of blaster bolts. Yet Vader wasn't even able to outpace Maul.

TheDarthBoy
Ill have to give this to the Maul Brothers for very specific reasons.

Savage Opress is comparable to Sarro Xaj in every way.
think about it hes very large with great strenght and know how to use an extremely hard weapon.
With maul at his side they will keep her so pressured that wouldnt be able to focus on her force powers she just keep blocking both like she did with Sarro Xaj. shell eventaully end up tiring out and just die.


my backup her fight with Sarro Xaj......she could only defend against in one on one. and pitting savage against maul just wont work. shes not good at adding force and sabers, she suffers from tactical tunnel vision which means if shes sabering thats all she can do is saber thats it.

Emperordmb
Originally posted by TheDarthBoy
Ill have to give this to the Maul Brothers for very specific reasons.

Savage Opress is comparable to Sarro Xaj in every way.
think about it hes very large with great strenght and know how to use an extremely hard weapon.
With maul at his side they will keep her so pressured that wouldnt be able to focus on her force powers she just keep blocking both like she did with Sarro Xaj. shell eventaully end up tiring out and just die.


my backup her fight with Sarro Xaj......she could only defend against in one on one. and pitting savage against maul just wont work. shes not good at adding force and sabers, she suffers from tactical tunnel vision which means if shes sabering thats all she can do is saber thats it.
Everything you are bringing up for Zannah is from ROT, when her training was only half complete. She's improved a lot by DOE.

Savage also doesn't strike me as being nearly as skilled as a BM invigorated Sarro Xaj.

WildBantha88
Originally posted by TheDarthBoy
, she suffers from tactical tunnel vision

someone has been watching too much jensaarai1

Emperordmb
That's not even what Jensaarai1 meant either LOL

PTforthewin
Jensaari1 is an *******

PTforthewin
His VS fights are ****ing horrible, he just uses sources from wookipedia he doesn't know shit about Star Wars.

TheDarthBoy
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Everything you are bringing up for Zannah is from ROT, when her training was only half complete. She's improved a lot by DOE.

Savage also doesn't strike me as being nearly as skilled as a BM invigorated Sarro Xaj.

She has but still suffers the same problem in her final duel with darth bane she could focus and only defened against his him. think about about savages raw strenght and mauls skill will overwhelm her.
(their wont be a darkside nexus or tendrils to save her this time)


Well u got me on the savage and Xaj one..........however w/o BM ill say their equal in terms of dueling. why becuase with BM he was pushing her hard. she might be smart enough now but with maul keeping the pressure one she wont be able to think hard enough and plan shell just defend and end up loosing her footing.

Emperordmb
Originally posted by TheDarthBoy
She has but still suffers the same problem in her final duel with darth bane she could focus and only defened against his him. think about about savages raw strenght and mauls skill will overwhelm her.
She was prepping her sorcery and was planning on unleashing it while dueling Bane, so I'm pretty sure she can multitask here.


Originally posted by TheDarthBoy
Well u got me on the savage and Xaj one..........however w/o BM ill say their equal in terms of dueling. why becuase with BM he was pushing her hard. she might be smart enough now but with maul keeping the pressure one she wont be able to think hard enough and plan shell just defend and end up loosing her footing.
Zannah's dueling abilities have also improved considerably from ROT to DOE, where she went from being on the losing end in a duel with Xaj, to casually stomping a "very good" duelist and holding her own against Bane.


There's also a good possibility that she could just one shot Savage with sorcery from the start and only have to deal with Maul.

Nephthys
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
He's fast but not out of Dooku's league and not much faster than Maul.

Dooku isn't in this thread. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Bane is faster than either Dooku or Maul. Its true that he's not out of Dooku's league. But Yoda isn't out of Dooku's league either so that hardly means anything. He's still superior in combat speed. Which means so is Zannah. She has the advantage over Maul. Savage won't be a factor since she'll one-shot him at the start of the fight with sorcery. Though with her speed she'd have no problems with him in lightsaber combat as well. Dooku was dancing around him.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
1) I thought the room was full of apprentices? Also, Kit has moved faster than Kenobi was able to track, IIRC. Kit is not as fast as Dooku. Taking a few seconds to register Bane's movements seemingly suggests that the sith weren't in a battle state of mind, which requires that the force users slow down the speed of time.

Kas'im was also watching. And its says that "none of the spectators" followed his movements. Kas'im > AotC Obi-Wan. And if you're watching a duel between Sith you'd obviously need to speed up your perceptions of follow the fight. Besides which, the feat is also impressive since Bane states that it seemed to him that the rest of the world became frozen in time. Plus Bane was only an apprentice at this time and faaaaaaaaar from his peak.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
2) Dooku appeared to be everywhere at once to Kenobi. Before you call it out as being hyperbole, it is somewhat; it was an exaggerated way of saying Kenobi was having a hard time keeping up with Dooku's movements, which involved Dooku's entire body, and not just his lightsaber. The statement actually makes more sense than Bane appearing to wield a dozen lightsabers, unless you believe Zannah stood their and actually counted twelve sabers mid-combat? Now it's easy to see half a dozen and a half a dozen and automatically calculate a full dozen in your head within a few seconds time, but that's if the objects are all stationary, which wouldn't be the case in a saber combat, unless Bane was standing there moving his saber back and forth in a single sequence. No, Bane would be trying to move his saber to attack any opening in Zannah's defense and at Zannah's saber to try to unbalance her, which would most likely be more than twelve spots worth of targets. Sounds like the author had Zannah throwing out a random number to convince the reader that she was having trouble keeping up with Bane's saber with her eyes alone, and that she was seeing a bunch of after images. In both cases, Zannah and Kenobi were having trouble keeping up with their opponents speed with the naked eye alone. However, Dooku's feat seems more impressive, IMO.

Sorry bro, but Dooku's feat is 100% complete hyperbolic horseshit and your argument against Bane's feat makes absolutely no sense. Zannah saw all the blades like Obi-wan counted how many attacks per second Grievous was doing. I'd think that Jedi and Sith would be capable of instant assessments of their surroundings in a fight. Either way its irrelevant what you think makes sense.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
3) I'm more impressed with Dooku outpacing and blocking the attacks from three nightsister simultaneously (including Ventress), while drugged and blind, via precognition alone. While the nightsister weren't amped, it's Dooku's handicap that impresses me more, as he didn't have any advantages as Bane did against the strike team. Furthermore, I thought the passage suggested that Bane would have cut a few of them down in quick succession, which doesn't necessarily translate in blitzing them all.

I don't see how that's anywhere near as impressive, considering it's not even a speed feat. erm

Obviously Bane wouldn't have blitzed them all at the same time since they were all in different areas of the room. He almost blitzed Farfalla and Raskta. But considering that even in PoD he was capable of covering 10 meters instantly he'd be capable of running over and cutting down Worror and/or Johan and Sarro lickidy split as well.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
4) Wasn't Bane fully covered in orbalisks by that point, which wouldn't require that Bane use up much speed for defensive use? He'd be free to go all out offensively.

Bane was capable of dodging or swatting aside her attacks.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
5) What was Bane wearing at the time? The passage notes that Bane managed to successfully prevent the rain from touching his exposed flesh only. Regardless, it's not any greater than Vader moving his saber fast enough to form shields or block waves of blaster bolts. Yet Vader wasn't even able to outpace Maul.

He was naked from the waist up. And its a faaaaaar greater feat than Vader spinning his freaking saber, lmao.

TheDarthBoy
Originally posted by Emperordmb
She was prepping her sorcery and was planning on unleashing it while dueling Bane, so I'm pretty sure she can multitask here.



Zannah's dueling abilities have also improved considerably from ROT to DOE, where she went from being on the losing end in a duel with Xaj, to casually stomping a "very good" duelist and holding her own against Bane.


There's also a good possibility that she could just one shot Savage with sorcery from the start and only have to deal with Maul.

Yeah i guess so but Savage has gotten better than until his death as well, he is not the same brute swinger he was when he fought dooku.

Also i dont think Savage would get one shotted in a simple force madness attack seeing that he broke from Ventress spell tells me he has will power. Leaving her only with TK in which maul would assist Savage in doing so. leaving her to only defend herself until she looses her footing against the clashing of the Maul brothers blades.


Also she cannot multitask very well yeah she held her own against Bane but that was all she could do was just defend against him.
she only used her tendrils via Nexus and when her focus was no longer on her lightersaber via disarmament.

TheDarthBoy
I know ill get alot of hate from Zannah fans but f/ck IT I dont think her sith sorcery is impressive to me all!!!!! i have read and reread the books and checked the wiki her weakness and battle mentality are still the same here.

Zannah is NOT one of the great lightsaber duelists she is extremely powerful and she has shown herself to be capable of defending herself against great duelists but that was all she did just defend not take command like Sidious or overwhelm or dominate. Her lackluster focus on her surrounding will also effect her fight in this
as well.

Also her illusions are powerful but they only work effectively against someone who has hidden problems and Savage doesnt have any example he killed his own brother without a second though and until his death he never regretted such a manner. so her exploitation's of his inner demons and fears will be nothing not because of savages WILL POWER NO its his MINDSET. He is like A BULL ALL he will do is charge at you!!!! mental attacks wont work because his mind is empty.




Now maul wont work either in my opinion why because his only demons are loosing to Kenobi which will only fuel mauls rage not drive him to swing wildy. And if they do maul would quickly realize that he is dueling a Dark Lady and not Kenobi and will refocus his mind on her allowing Savage and Maul to keep up the pressure until she runs out of HER HUUUUUUGE gas tank.

Savages empty mind full of rage and mauls focus will prevent Zannah from using her spells on top of that she wont be able to focus only react. she can only defend not dominate. Her kills are only on the extremely tired or Nexus attacks.

"However on a personal note as much as i dislike zannah. her over specialization in Form III and skill with it is amazing its f/cking awesome however i cant be on defense forever i like to mix it up.unless im like nihilus then ill defend for days knowing thier would be a big payoff om nom nom nom nooom"

UltimateAnomaly
Originally posted by TheDarthBoy


"However on a personal note as much as i dislike zannah. her over specialization in Form III and skill with it is amazing its f/cking awesome however i cant be on defense forever i like to mix it up.unless im like nihilus then ill defend for days knowing thier would be a big payoff om nom nom nom nooom"

...What?

Emperordmb
Originally posted by TheDarthBoy
Yeah i guess so but Savage has gotten better than until his death as well, he is not the same brute swinger he was when he fought dooku.
There is a massive difference between one year of training and ten years of training.

Originally posted by TheDarthBoy
Also i dont think Savage would get one shotted in a simple force madness attack seeing that he broke from Ventress spell tells me he has will power. Leaving her only with TK in which maul would assist Savage in doing so. leaving her to only defend herself until she looses her footing against the clashing of the Maul brothers blades.
Set Harth had strength of will as well, didn't stop him from being instantly sent into a coma from one of Zannah's weaker spells. I'm pretty sure that if she uses a stronger spell with the intent of destroying his mind, she can bring him down.

Originally posted by TheDarthBoy
Also she cannot multitask very well yeah she held her own against Bane but that was all she could do was just defend against him.
She was defending against Bane while charging up her sorcery and preparing to unleash it.
she only used her tendrils via Nexus and when her focus was no longer on her lightersaber via disarmament.

TheDarthBoy
Originally posted by UltimateAnomaly
...What?
its a comment on what i personally think of her style not the debte itself.

WildBantha88
Originally posted by TheDarthBoy


Zannah is NOT one of the great lightsaber duelists she is extremely powerful and she has shown herself to be capable of defending herself against great duelists but that was all she did just defend not take command like Sidious or overwhelm or dominate. Her lackluster focus on her surrounding will also effect her fight in this
as well.

Also her illusions are powerful but they only work effectively against someone who has hidden problems .

*sigh* you really need to stop watching jensaaria1.

carthage
The brothers wipe the floor with Zannah, even if Zannah takes out Savage (which is unlikely) given that it took her time to prep her spell against Bane (on a nexus) Maul overwhelms her with TK or kills her with his skill.

She isn't taking two, she could probably only narrowly take a slim majority against Savage on her best day

King Joker
Maul & Savage.

Nephthys
Originally posted by carthage
The brothers wipe the floor with Zannah, even if Zannah takes out Savage (which is unlikely) given that it took her time to prep her spell against Bane (on a nexus) Maul overwhelms her with TK or kills her with his skill.

She isn't taking two, she could probably only narrowly take a slim majority against Savage on her best day

Zannah is more than able to rapidly use her sorcery on an opponent. A quick glance away from Sarro gave her the time needed to pwn him and she put Harth into a coma while he was charging her from a few meters away, if that. According to Zannah all it takes is "a simple thought and a gesture."

Savage will be on the ground before the fight even starts. I'd be inclined to say the same for Maul a few seconds later to be honest.

Emperordmb
Originally posted by carthage
she could probably only narrowly take a slim majority against Savage on her best day
WHAT?!!!!!

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by Nephthys
Dooku isn't in this thread. roll eyes (sarcastic)


You made the claim that he was faster than Dooku, which he's not. Not from the feats I'm aware of.


Originally posted by Nephthys
Bane is faster than either Dooku or Maul.


Not faster than Dooku, and so far I'm not convinced he's much faster than Maul.


Originally posted by Nephthys
Its true that he's not out of Dooku's league. But Yoda isn't out of Dooku's league either so that hardly means anything.


Yes, Yoda is out of Dooku's league. His speed was such that he forced Dooku on the defensive and later on the retreat, while on a dark side nexus, which decreases a light sider's power and increases a dark sider's power. Their duel in AOTC wasn't Yoda going all out if you consider their force duel, his attachment for Dooku (the Yoda arc in season 6 made it clear that he once had a special relationship and bond with Dooku, and had trouble letting go of attachments), and the fact that Yoda has later went on to fight on par with someone who was capable of downing two swordsmasters with one blow each, and then a third seconds later while at the same time crossing blades with Windu, which is something beyond what Dooku is capable of.

Dooku can hold his own in a saber duel against the likes of Yoda and Sidious, but that doesn't put him in their league. He's not, and neither is Bane.


Originally posted by Nephthys
He's still superior in combat speed. Which means so is Zannah.


No, it doesn't. Zannah was having trouble keeping up with Bane's movements, though she did managed to. Just as Anakin was faster than Kenobi, but Kenobi was able to keep up.

Maul was able to outrun and dance around close range blaster bolts from assassin droids. The former he did so while being fired at by over 12 blaster bolts which were coming at him simultaneously. Not seeing how Zannah is Maul's superior in speed.




Originally posted by Nephthys
She has the advantage over Maul.


Only in sorcery. But I'm not convinced she would have time to utilize it mid-duel. Her tendrils are out of the question unless she has an outside source of power to draw from. I'm not sure her illusions would work either considering Maul's willpower. Maul was able to survive being cut in half and grow spider-like legs through sheer will.




Originally posted by Nephthys
Savage won't be a factor since she'll one-shot him at the start of the fight with sorcery. Though with her speed she'd have no problems with him in lightsaber combat as well.


In their duel with Sidious, Maul and Savage were pretty coordinated as a team, surrounding Palpatine and attacking him from different sides. Though of course Sidious easily dodged and blocked every attack because he had the speed and strength to do so. Zannah doesn't have Sidious speed or strength. Savage's strength and Maul's aggressiveness and speed would unbalance her. Trying to use her sorcery mid-duel will leave her open for attack. Not to mention she would also be trying to defend against any TK attacks from Maul and Savage, both or whom are more powerful TK users than her.


Originally posted by Nephthys
Dooku was dancing around him.


Savage had more training from Maul since then.



Originally posted by Nephthys
Kas'im > AotC Obi-Wan.


In sheer skill, perhaps. Reaction speed, no.



Originally posted by Nephthys
And if you're watching a duel between Sith you'd obviously need to speed up your perceptions of follow the fight.


I was going off of your claim that it took them seconds to register his movements, which seemingly suggests that they were caught by surprise by his speed.


If Kas'im was having trouble keeping up with a mere student's speed, then he's really not all that good, which isn't surprising considering how much Bane talked down on the sith of his time.



Originally posted by Nephthys
Sorry bro, but Dooku's feat is 100% complete hyperbolic horseshit and your argument against Bane's feat makes absolutely no sense. Zannah saw all the blades like Obi-wan counted how many attacks per second Grievous was doing. I'd think that Jedi and Sith would be capable of instant assessments of their surroundings in a fight. Either way its irrelevant what you think makes sense.


No, Zannah seeing twelve blades that are moving in different angles makes absolutely no sense, unless Bane is targeting the same 12 areas in the same exact order over and over again. If that's what he was doing then he is a very predictable fighter. Again, it's not like Bane was waving his saber in front of him in a single sequence. The author had Zannah throw out a large number to indicate that she was seeing a bunch of after images and was having trouble keeping up with his movements with her eyes alone. That was the message the author was trying to convey. There's no way she was calculating 12 sabers throughout an entire duel.

Regarding Kenobi vs Grievous, the narration just states that Grievous was throwing 20 strikes per second, which couldn't have been coming from Kenobi's POV, considering his defenses were being overloaded, so he wouldn't have had the time to count how many strikes Grievous was throwing per second, while trying to defend against those attacks.



Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't see how that's anywhere near as impressive, considering it's not even a speed feat.


What do you think Dooku relied on to evade and block attacks from three different force users? A shield? How do you think he was capable of landing physical attacks on them? Obviously he had to have been outpacing them. It's impressive in that Dooku was unable to use the force to view time in slow motion, considering he was blind and drugged, which would obviously blunt his reaction speed quite a bit. He had to rely on precognition alone (and even that may have been blunted, considering he was unable to sense the presence of his former apprentice, and mother Talzin stating something about the drug dampening his force senses), and was still kicking ass until Ventress used a force push on him.

Again, Dooku was severely handicapped in his duel with the nightsisters. He had no advantage as Bane did against the strike team.


Originally posted by Nephthys
Obviously Bane wouldn't have blitzed them all at the same time since they were all in different areas of the room. He almost blitzed Farfalla and Raskta.


So they weren't attacking him all at once?

I was under the impression that he would have cut them down quickly. Same way Dooku would have likely cut Kenobi down quickly had Anakin not been there, but they were attacking Dooku at the same time, Kenobi was never far apart from Anakin while fighting Dooku. And this was Kenobi at his peak, near the events of ROTS. Were any of the masters on the strike team against Bane on Kenobi's level?

Can you provide the passage, or do I have to find that Russian site to download it?

Also, speedblitz to me is when one is completely unable to register the speed of his opponent, as was the case when Sidious cut Kolar and Tiin Down.



Originally posted by Nephthys
Bane was capable of dodging or swatting aside her attacks.


Again, Bane's body was almost entirely covered so he wouldn't have to put much use in defensive speed. Swatting aside her attacks can be done while fighting offensively. This is why I find Dooku's duel against the nightsisters more impressive as far as combat speed. Dooku had his entire body to protect, and he did so casually while drugged and blind, plus he managed to land plenty of physical attacks on his opponents despite his handicap.



Originally posted by Nephthys
He was naked from the waist up. And its a faaaaaar greater feat than Vader spinning his freaking saber, lmao.


That's basically what Bane was doing when blocking the downpour: forming a shield. It's the only way the feat makes sense. It's not speed feat beyond Vader's, who was incapable of outpacing Maul. Not seeing how Bane would be much faster than Maul, considering that Bane somewhat implied that it was his best speed performance, given that that's what he was testing and once thought impossible.

As I said, Maul has danced around over 12 blaster bolts that were being fired at his entire body simultaneously, which is a speed feat I find more impressive than Bane's rain feat, considering Maul didn't use his saber, and the fact that blaster bolts travel far faster than rain.

Bane is fast, but putting him up their with Yoda and Sidious is wanking him a bit too much.

NewGuy01
To be entirely honest, Maul's feats as far as speed goes aren't any lesser than Dooku's, either--He's moved imperceptibly fast to security cameras, produced webbing tapestries of light behind his blade, appeared to be in three places at once, and he's dodged blaster fire from at least a dozen shooters.

That said, I consider all three of them to be on the same tier as far as speed goes--Bane actually might be the fastest of them, though, but like you I'm not truly convinced of that.



I agree Yoda is a head and shoulders above Dooku, but during their battle on Vjun, Yoda's advantage was very slim, and Dooku scored two strikes on Yoda during the course of the battle.



Agreed completely. thumb up



thumb up Maul is definitely one of the strongest willed characters in the Star Wars mythos.



thumb up



To be fair, Kas'im was the singular Sith of Bane's day that the latter recognized as an extremely formidable warrior.



No, but it's definitely arguable that Raskta Lsu was even stronger than Kenobi when her prowess was amplified by Worror's Battle Meditation. In terms of dueling prowess, that is.



I don't think it was quite that simple. I see it being more like a heightened scale bolt deflection feat.



thumb up Right, and Cade Skywalker has done this too. Bane's feat is great, especially because he was able to keep it up for several minutes, but it's not something that's out of the league of the upper tier Jedi/Sith.



Yep.

Nephthys
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Not faster than Dooku, and so far I'm not convinced he's much faster than Maul.

Maul's best speed feat is appearing in multiple places at once, which no one has ever actually posted here, so I'm inclined to believe its just as bullshit as what you said Dooku's feat of appearing in multiple places was.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yes, Yoda is out of Dooku's league. His speed was such that he forced Dooku on the defensive and later on the retreat, while on a dark side nexus, which decreases a light sider's power and increases a dark sider's power. Their duel in AOTC wasn't Yoda going all out if you consider their force duel, his attachment for Dooku (the Yoda arc in season 6 made it clear that he once had a special relationship and bond with Dooku, and had trouble letting go of attachments), and the fact that Yoda has later went on to fight on par with someone who was capable of downing two swordsmasters with one blow each, and then a third seconds later while at the same time crossing blades with Windu, which is something beyond what Dooku is capable of.

Dooku can hold his own in a saber duel against the likes of Yoda and Sidious, but that doesn't put him in their league. He's not, and neither is Bane.

What I meant by 'out of his league' is that he would be too fast for Dooku to compete. The fact that Dooku can hold his own in a duel with them proves that he is in their league, by my definition.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
No, it doesn't. Zannah was having trouble keeping up with Bane's movements, though she did managed to. Just as Anakin was faster than Kenobi, but Kenobi was able to keep up.

Maul was able to outrun and dance around close range blaster bolts from assassin droids. The former he did so while being fired at by over 12 blaster bolts which were coming at him simultaneously. Not seeing how Zannah is Maul's superior in speed.

Zannah wasn't having trouble keeping up with his speed though. The only time she struggled with it was after she tripped and he'd stomped on her and broken her ribs.

And Zannah was able to visually track a lightning bolt as if passed her as well as is equal to or close to Bane in speed.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Only in sorcery. But I'm not convinced she would have time to utilize it mid-duel. Her tendrils are out of the question unless she has an outside source of power to draw from. I'm not sure her illusions would work either considering Maul's willpower. Maul was able to survive being cut in half and grow spider-like legs through sheer will.

Then allow me to convince you:

"As he drew near, she responded not with physical violence, but rather with a powerful spell of Sith sorcery that attacked Set's mind. He tried to throw up a protective Force barrier in response, but Zannah's power shredded his defenses, leaving him completely vulnerable.

Sith sorcery was as much a part of the dark side as the deadly violet bolts of energy her Master unleashed from his hands, and when Bane had first recognized her talent for the subtle but devastating magics he had encouraged her studies into the arcane. From ancient texts she had learned to twist and torment the thoughts of her enemies. She could make them see nightmares as reality; she could cause their deepest fears to manifest as demons of the psyche. She could, and had, rip the minds of her enemies apart with a simple thought and a gesture.

With Set, however, she did not intend to destroy him completely. Instead she enveloped him in a cloud of utter despair and hopelessness. She reached into the innermost recesses of his mind and wrapped it in the nothingness of the void.

Set's eyes went blank, his jaw hung slack, and his lightsaber slipped from nerveless fingers. He slowly slumped to the ground, his eyes closing and his body trembling slightly as he curled up into a fetal position."

For context, Harth was very close to Zannah when he charged her. She'd kicked him in the throat and he'd staggered back a bit but he would still be at best a few meters away. As Zannah says, she can perform the spell with only a simple thought and gesture. She can use it in combat easily.

As to your other arguments, you have to be kidding. Zannah is not only above Maul in sorcery. She's more powerful than him as well and even if he should be near her in speed, he will never get through her defenses.

Even if Maul has high levels of will power, he still has nothing on Bane who barely resisted Zannah's attack. Especially since Maul himself attributes his survival on the Sidious' teachings, not his willpower.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
In their duel with Sidious, Maul and Savage were pretty coordinated as a team, surrounding Palpatine and attacking him from different sides. Though of course Sidious easily dodged and blocked every attack because he had the speed and strength to do so. Zannah doesn't have Sidious speed or strength. Savage's strength and Maul's aggressiveness and speed would unbalance her. Trying to use her sorcery mid-duel will leave her open for attack. Not to mention she would also be trying to defend against any TK attacks from Maul and Savage, both or whom are more powerful TK users than her.

Because Sidious was also moving around and letting them flank him. We know that Zannah's go-to strategy is to hug a corner to block off attempts at flanking her when fighting multiple opponents.

Leave herself open? She would use it right off the bat to down Savage before either of them got close enough for her to be vulnerable. All it takes is a gesture, which is easy to pull off in a duel. Maul has done it. Or she could just do what she did to Bane, backflip or leap away to give herself distance.

I just about pissed myself at Maul and Savage being more powerful in TK than her. Thanks for that, I needed the laugh.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Savage had more training from Maul since then.

You mean when Maul casually owned him and stood on his face? Obi-Wan and Adi Gallia were also ducking and waving through his attacks. And Dooku is still faster than Savage and would be able to dance around him after his "training" nonetheless.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
In sheer skill, perhaps. Reaction speed, no.

Pretty much, yeah. Kas'im was appearing to wield 6 lightsabers instead of 2 to Bane in his duel with him.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I was going off of your claim that it took them seconds to register his movements, which seemingly suggests that they were caught by surprise by his speed.

I was paraphrasing. The actual quote is:

"For an instant none of the spectators was even aware of what had happened; it took their minds a moment to catch up and register the blur of action that had occurred so much quicker than their eyes could see."

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
If Kas'im was having trouble keeping up with a mere student's speed, then he's really not all that good, which isn't surprising considering how much Bane talked down on the sith of his time.

Don't forget that Bane has charged up his power before doing the feat. Bane would be a bit faster than normal at the time, though obviously still nowhere near his later speed, even with the charge.

Also Kas'im was the best duelist of his era, only rivaled by Raskta. He's legit, as even Newguy admits.

Nephthys
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
No, Zannah seeing twelve blades that are moving in different angles makes absolutely no sense, unless Bane is targeting the same 12 areas in the same exact order over and over again. If that's what he was doing then he is a very predictable fighter. Again, it's not like Bane was waving his saber in front of him in a single sequence. The author had Zannah throw out a large number to indicate that she was seeing a bunch of after images and was having trouble keeping up with his movements with her eyes alone. That was the message the author was trying to convey. There's no way she was calculating 12 sabers throughout an entire duel.

Regarding Kenobi vs Grievous, the narration just states that Grievous was throwing 20 strikes per second, which couldn't have been coming from Kenobi's POV, considering his defenses were being overloaded, so he wouldn't have had the time to count how many strikes Grievous was throwing per second, while trying to defend against those attacks.

No, it makes complete sense since Bane would be moving so fast that she'd be seeing all of his different attacks at the same time, and he would thus appear to be wielding a dozen lightsabers. I don't understand at all why he would need to be attacking the same places for that to happen, that doesn't make any logical sense at all. Besides which the narration says that he was attacking her from all angles and was attacking her like a wild animal. Zannah was simply seeing a bunch of afterimages or whatever you want to call it and had the situational awareness to count how many she was seeing, similar to how highly trained soldiers can instantly tell how many enemy combatants there are with a quick glance.

Except that it's Obi-Wan's point of view at the time, so it's not just coming from the narration. If you want to go down that route then I'd say the same about Zannah, that the narration simple supplied the exact numbers Zannah was seeing but couldn't count since he defenses were being overloaded as well.

Stop trying to dismiss a valid feat just because you don't like it. You have no basis for argument here. It is a superior feat to anything Dooku or Maul have ever done. And DoE Bane is even faster than he was there. Zannah > Maul in speed, accept it.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
What do you think Dooku relied on to evade and block attacks from three different force users? A shield? How do you think he was capable of landing physical attacks on them? Obviously he had to have been outpacing them. It's impressive in that Dooku was unable to use the force to view time in slow motion, considering he was blind and drugged, which would obviously blunt his reaction speed quite a bit. He had to rely on precognition alone (and even that may have been blunted, considering he was unable to sense the presence of his former apprentice, and mother Talzin stating something about the drug dampening his force senses), and was still kicking ass until Ventress used a force push on him.

Again, Dooku was severely handicapped in his duel with the nightsisters. He had no advantage as Bane did against the strike team.

His senses and skill. Speed wouldn't allow him to evade and block their attacks if he didn't know where they were coming from. He would just be flailing around. We see in the fight that he isn't beating them through speed, but is simply able to anticipate their every attack and respond with his peerless skill. It's a feat of power, that even with the drug he is able to sense all their attacks and respond. you know, before he peeters out.

Also just because he was blind doesn't mean anything. We know that Jedi are trained to fight without relying on their visual sense, aka Luke training in ANH. In the Bane trilogy its stated that duels are mostly too fast to track with your eyes. The attacks are too fast to follow with your eyes and react to individually, so you need to react with instinct and training guided by your force senses and precognition. Dooku even says "I do not need my eyes to see you, Jedi."

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
So they weren't attacking him all at once?

I was under the impression that he would have cut them down quickly. Same way Dooku would have likely cut Kenobi down quickly had Anakin not been there, but they were attacking Dooku at the same time, Kenobi was never far apart from Anakin while fighting Dooku. And this was Kenobi at his peak, near the events of ROTS. Were any of the masters on the strike team against Bane on Kenobi's level?

Can you provide the passage, or do I have to find that Russian site to download it?

Also, speedblitz to me is when one is completely unable to register the speed of his opponent, as was the case when Sidious cut Kolar and Tiin Down.

Not all the Strike Team attacked Bane. 2 of them attacked Zannah and one of them used Battle Meditation.

Raskta definitely is on Kenobi's level. She's more skilled than he is and has killed more Sith Lords than the Thought Bomb. Farfalla was the second in command of the army after Hoth and his form was described as 'perfect'. Also he killed a Sith Lord who blitzed the finest soldiers in the Republic.

"He would have plowed straight into Raskta, trampling her under his heavy boots, had she not cartwheeled to the side at the last possible instant.

Bane never stopped, his momentum carrying him straight toward Farfalla. The Jedi Master had a moment to register the strange armor coat of hard, shiny shells he wore beneath his clothes. Then he, too, leapt to the side to avoid being crushed, surviving only because his reflexes were heightened by Worror's power."

Both Raskta and Farfalla only managed to get out of the way at the last instant due to their increased reflexes.


Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Again, Bane's body was almost entirely covered so he wouldn't have to put much use in defensive speed. Swatting aside her attacks can be done while fighting offensively. This is why I find Dooku's duel against the nightsisters more impressive as far as combat speed. Dooku had his entire body to protect, and he did so casually while drugged and blind, plus he managed to land plenty of physical attacks on his opponents despite his handicap.

Except Bane was ducking and weaving around her attacks aimed at his head and slapping them aside with his arm.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
That's basically what Bane was doing when blocking the downpour: forming a shield. It's the only way the feat makes sense. It's not speed feat beyond Vader's, who was incapable of outpacing Maul. Not seeing how Bane would be much faster than Maul, considering that Bane somewhat implied that it was his best speed performance, given that that's what he was testing and once thought impossible.

As I said, Maul has danced around over 12 blaster bolts that were being fired at his entire body simultaneously, which is a speed feat I find more impressive than Bane's rain feat, considering Maul didn't use his saber, and the fact that blaster bolts travel far faster than rain.

Bane is fast, but putting him up their with Yoda and Sidious is wanking him a bit too much.

I don't want to get into this discussion again. Suffice to say that Bane was again, ducking and weaving and dodging individual drops and that its not the only way he could be doing the feat. His lightsaber couldn't form a shield big enough to cover his whole body.

Maul and Dooku are fast too. Just not Bane and Zannah fast.

TheDarthBoy
In regards to the youtuber ill use what ever source that sounds about right to me.

SIDIOUS 66
Neph, I'll get to all that later. And for the record, I never once tried to dismiss Bane's 12 blade feat. It's you who always dismisses feats or concepts (hint: force nexuses) when you don't like them. That Obi Wan was unable to place an exact number as to where Dooku appeared to be, and instead used the exaggerated term "everywhere at once," would imply that Kenobi, despite having heightened reflexes, was unable to calculate the number of locations Dooku appeared to be. It's the same way one jedi compared Vader's speed to Yoda's. It's not that Vader is as fast as Yoda, it's just that the jedi in particular was unable to place an exact number as to how fast Vader was moving, simply because Vader was moving faster than his eyes were able to follow. It makes more sense than a force user calculating the amount of sabers there appeared to be throughout an entire duel, and then giving off an exact number, while at the same time trying to defend herself against the attacks from those "12 sabers."

DarthAnt66
Sums up the entire Zannah/Revan debate. thumb up

Nephthys
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Neph, I'll get to all that later. And for the record, I never once tried to dismiss Bane's 12 blade feat. It's you who always dismisses feats or concepts (hint: force nexuses) when you don't like them. That Obi Wan was unable to place an exact number as to where Dooku appeared to be, and instead used the exaggerated term "everywhere at once," would imply that Kenobi, despite having heightened reflexes, was unable to calculate the number of locations Dooku appeared to be. It's the same way one jedi compared Vader's speed to Yoda's. It's not that Vader is as fast as Yoda, it's just that the jedi in particular was unable to place an exact number as to how fast Vader was moving, simply because Vader was moving faster than his eyes were able to follow. It makes more sense than a force user calculating the amount of sabers there appeared to be throughout an entire duel, and then giving off an exact number, while at the same time trying to defend herself against the attacks from those "12 sabers."

If you're not dismissing it then what are you saying about it? From what I can tell you are simply trying to diminish it by claiming it doesn't make sense and trying to make it less impressive than Dooku's feats through flawed logic.

As to Obi-Wans feat, it's isn't that. Its just a vague, hyperbolic statement suggesting that Dooku was dominating him. It is clearly hyperbolic since Dooku couldn't seem to be everywhere at once. To compare it to Raskta's similar feat:

"She seemed to be everywhere at once-in front of Bane, beside him, behind him, circling low, leaping to come in high, deflecting his blade with one of her own then stabbing three quick times in succession at his eyes."

This is obviously superior because it actually expounds on the fact that the phrase isn't just an exaggerated description, she was actually appearing to be in multiple places at once. Obi-Wans use of it though is just a common description used in books about human speed fighters all the time, for dramatic effect. As in, hyperbole.

SIDIOUS 66
The term was in reference to Dooku's speed, Neph. One can be dominated in a fight through sheer strength of his opponent, but he's not going to say his opponent appeared to be everywhere at once unless there's a disparity in speed. I considered Dooku's feat superior due to the fact that it involved Dooku's entire body, and because Kenobi's use of the exaggerated term strongly suggested that he couldn't place a limit to Dooku's movements, he was unable to follow.

Yes, you are correct, it is a term used in books all the time. It's a term that strongly suggests one is being vastly outpaced in a fight, which was the case with Kenobi. However, the fact that Kenobi has fast reflexes, him using the term "everywhere at once" to describe Dooku's speed comes off as more impressive than it being used to describe a normal human's speed in other books, and is therefore not comparable.

SIDIOUS 66
I have absolutely no idea why my post was sent before I was able to finish it. I know I didn't accidently hit the reply button.

Nephthys
Isn't the actual quote:

"As Obi-Wan gave ground, Dooku quickened the pace. His every move was economical and elegant; his lightsaber seemed to be everywhere. Obi-Wan remembered Jocasta Nu telling him, With a lightsaber, in the old style of fencing, he had no match. Now he could see what she meant. Unfortunately. "

So, its not Dooku's entire body, is it and it mentions his lightsaber seeming everywhere at once in regards to his skill.

Nephthys
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
The term was in reference to Dooku's speed, Neph. One can be dominated in a fight through sheer strength of his opponent, but he's not going to say his opponent appeared to be everywhere at once unless there's a disparity in speed. I considered Dooku's feat superior due to the fact that it involved Dooku's entire body, and because Kenobi's use of the exaggerated term strongly suggested that he couldn't place a limit to Dooku's movements, he was unable to follow.

Yes, you are correct, it is a term used in books all the time. It's a term that strongly suggests one is being vastly outpaced in a fight, which was the case with Kenobi. However, the fact that Kenobi has fast reflexes, him using the term "everywhere at once" to describe Dooku's speed comes off as more impressive than it being used to describe a normal human's speed in other books, and is therefore not comparable.

Uh, yes he is. I've read a fight where that description is used about a guy being unable to break his opponents guard. As in he couldn't get through since the guys sword was "everywhere". And from the quote I just posted, its seems pretty clear that that's basically what the actual feat is. Just because Kenobi used an exaggerated term doesn't mean he couldn't place a limit, just that he was being vague and hyperbolic. Just like Revan being said to have 'limitless' potential or Sidious having 'unlimited power' or the Exchange having agents 'everywhere'.

Even if I conceded that, the problem with hyperbole is that its inexact and vague. Yeah, Dooku was outpacing Kenobi. So? How much faster than him was he really going though? You cannot use it to argue he's faster than Bane, it's unprovable. It's incomparable to Bane or Raskta's feats since they're infinitely more quantifiable.

carthage
Originally posted by Emperordmb
I'm going with Zannah here. She has the defensive capabilities to defend against them in a duel, and neither could cope with her illusions.

Lmfao

Trocity
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Maul definitely could solo this.

Nephthys
Zannah one-shots them both.

SunRazer
lmfao

NewGuy01
Yeah, Maul wins fairly solid majority ngl.

Deronn_solo
Rain.

NewGuy01
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Rain.

no no no maul too stronk too fast too skill too power too will

Deronn_solo
TP feats for Maul, pls.

NewGuy01
Will and power counter sorcery not TP according to Bein

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
TP feats for Maul, pls.
Combat feats for Zannah, pls.

Deronn_solo
Contending against Bane? Stomping Seth Harth?

Dem some gewd combat feats, boi.

FreshestSlice
LolNo. No, they aren't. The day when not being killed against and elderly and dying Bane means you can go up against both Maul and Savage, I'll eat my hat.

Deronn_solo
mmm

That elderly and dying Bane was still made powerful, though. In fact, he was superior to his younger unamped self.

ILS
Depends on if Zannah's TP is enough to overcome the will of a guy who can survive bisection through sheer anger.
She gets destroyed by the duo though.

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
mmm

That elderly and dying Bane was still made powerful, though. In fact, he was superior to his younger unamped self.
The one losing to Kas'im in sabers? I'm not seeing where this is supposed to be impressive.

Deronn_solo
Yep. It's not like Bane wasn't beating Kas'im before he switched to a form he purposely had no answer for thanks to his teacher withholding counters for it. Or that Kas'im wasn't a technical maven, who held mastery over all forms of Lightsaber combat, and perfecting thousands of sequences and moves over the decades. Or that he had the ability to change tactics and switch between Lightsaber forms on the fly.

Yep, Kas'im is legit shit, I guess. thumb up

FreshestSlice
Glad you understand.

ILS
Kas'im's technical mastery is below the Inquisitors lol

Deronn_solo
Nah.
To my knowledge the Inquisitors hasn't mastered perfected thousands of sequences, or moves. Neither was he stated to be a high level master in mutiple forms.

FreshestSlice
Yeah. Yeah, he was. Can identify styles at a glance too.

carthage
Bane failed to beat a less skilled opponent than the Inquisitor?!

LOL

Deronn_solo
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Yeah. Yeah, he was. Can identify styles at a glance too.

I recall him being called a master, but never high level like what is required to master Juyo in Legends. LAWL. Taking 10 seconds to identify lightsaber style is good, but perfecting thousands of sequences over decades is noticebly superior.

Nargaroth
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
I recall him being called a master, but never high level like what is required to master Juyo in Legends. LAWL. Taking 10 seconds to identify lightsaber style is good, but perfecting thousands of sequences over decades is noticebly superior.

Actually, he was stated to have learned to not only use, but counter all lightsaber forms, which suggests that he has intimate knowledge of each form's strenghts and weaknesses.

Deronn_solo
....acknowledged? Still not more impressive than Kas'im, though.

ILS
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
I recall him being called a master, but never high level like what is required to master Juyo in Legends. LAWL. Taking 10 seconds to identify lightsaber style is good, but perfecting thousands of sequences over decades is noticebly superior. Prepare to be educated, sir.

"The Jedi Order recognizes seven forms of lightsaber combat. The Inquisitor has learned to use-and counter-all of them!"
--
"10.6

The time it takes the Inquisitor to identify a Jedi's fighting style, in seconds."
-Absolutely Everything You Need To Know About Star Wars

---
"His cold, analytical mind is his most powerful weapon. He analyzes Jedi fighting styles and capabilities, as well as the Jedi traditions they follow. He can even identify a Jedi's mentor. He then uses this information to prey upon their weaknesses."



"Despite having never met Kanan, the Inquisitor immediately identifies Kanan's fighting style; his Master, Despa Billaba; and, most important, the weaknesses of his form. The Inquisitor exploits this weakness to great effect, and Kanan and Ezra barely escape."

--Ultimate Star Wars

---------

He can not only use every saber form, but he can counter every one of them. He can also identify not only the form a Jedi is using and the degree to which they favour it, but also the master who taught them it, in the space of ten seconds. He also innovated (or at least is a user of) spinning saberstaff combat. Kas'im can suck on a fat toe.

The_Tempest
Nice. The Grand Inquisitor is beastly AF.

carthage
That's obviously not as IMPRESSIVE as Kas'im's saber mastery which totally didn't help him devise any new lightsaber sequences to defeat a less skilled opponent. Obviously, Kas'im's technical mastery of the blade has shown itself to have a good track record against less skilled duelists

|King Joker|
You'd think he wouldn't need that type of lightsaber if he was so uber skilled.

ILS
Originally posted by |King Joker|
You'd think he wouldn't need that type of lightsaber if he was so uber skilled. Technical skill can and usually is surpassed by strength in the Force as far as it correlates to saber combat, e.g Bane and Kas'im, or Anakin and Drallig. Or Kanan and the Inquisitor.

|King Joker|
Originally posted by ILS
Technical skill can and usually is surpassed by strength in the Force as far as it correlates to saber combat, e.g Bane and Kas'im, or Anakin and Drallig. Or Kanan and the Inquisitor. I'm aware of that, but I was mostly referring to this: "In relying on such a mechanical lightsaber model, the Inquisitor betrays one weakness: his fighting skills are not as potent as his analytical skills." - Ultimate Star Wars

I feel like someone of the Grand Inquisitor's skill level would be beyond using that type of weapon, so it just confuses me, TBH.

ILS
He's not as natural a fighter as most Force users so I'd imagine he uses every advantage he can get his hands on, much like Kas'im.

Deronn_solo
Originally posted by carthage
That's obviously not as IMPRESSIVE as Kas'im's saber mastery which totally didn't help him devise any new lightsaber sequences to defeat a less skilled opponent. Obviously, Kas'im's technical mastery of the blade has shown itself to have a good track record against less skilled duelists

Prolly because Bane was much more powerful than Kas'im, as he completely gave himself to the Force, and let precognition/premonitions do the work. Ya know, as the novel actually noted. Also, Kas'im's technical skills kinda did help him defeate Bane, since he won the lightsaber portion in the end, circumstances aside.
Come on, you can low-ball harder than that, Carth.

Nargaroth
Originally posted by ILS
Technical skill can and usually is surpassed by strength in the Force as far as it correlates to saber combat, e.g Bane and Kas'im, or Anakin and Drallig. Or Kanan and the Inquisitor.

Problem is Kanan is not more powerful than the Inquisitor, who was identified by sources as being far more powerful than him and Ezra. That was also shown in their third encounter, in which he pinned Kanan to a wall Sidious style, and that happened not long before their final duel. Kanan would have had to grow vastly in power for that logic to apply, which is something only Anakin has done, and even he required months to become vastly more powerful than before.

ares834
Kanan also pinned Inqy in their first encounter. Clearly it isn't just raw power that determines whether someone can do so.

With that said, Kanan did get a big boost in that very episode when he said he had nothing left to fear. Suddenly he went from consistently being outmatched to quickly defeating the Inquisitor.

ILS
Originally posted by Nargaroth
Problem is Kanan is not more powerful than the Inquisitor, who was identified by sources as being far more powerful than him and Ezra. That was also shown in their third encounter, in which he pinned Kanan to a wall Sidious style, and that happened not long before their final duel. Kanan would have had to grow vastly in power for that logic to apply, which is something only Anakin has done, and even he required months to become vastly more powerful than before. He was identified by one source that I know of as far more powerful, and that was in reference to an earlier fight, not their final one.

Kanan has also pinned the Inquisitor to a wall Sidious style, so what's your point?

ILS
Originally posted by ares834
Kanan also pinned Inqy in their first encounter. Clearly it isn't just raw power that determines whether someone can do so.

With that said, Kanan did get a big boost in that very episode when he said he had nothing left to fear. Suddenly he went from consistently being outmatched to quickly defeating the Inquisitor. In canon, in general, Jedi tend to perform better in the face of someone they care about dying in front of them. But Kanan also seemed to have a much needed realization that he needs to let go of his fear, so he did end up stronger for it in the end.

McP
Maul solos. With Savage, there are no words to describe how aweful stomp this is.

Nephthys
Originally posted by ILS
Prepare to be educated, sir.

"The Jedi Order recognizes seven forms of lightsaber combat. The Inquisitor has learned to use-and counter-all of them!"
--
"10.6

The time it takes the Inquisitor to identify a Jedi's fighting style, in seconds."
-Absolutely Everything You Need To Know About Star Wars

---
"His cold, analytical mind is his most powerful weapon. He analyzes Jedi fighting styles and capabilities, as well as the Jedi traditions they follow. He can even identify a Jedi's mentor. He then uses this information to prey upon their weaknesses."



"Despite having never met Kanan, the Inquisitor immediately identifies Kanan's fighting style; his Master, Despa Billaba; and, most important, the weaknesses of his form. The Inquisitor exploits this weakness to great effect, and Kanan and Ezra barely escape."

--Ultimate Star Wars

---------

He can not only use every saber form, but he can counter every one of them. He can also identify not only the form a Jedi is using and the degree to which they favour it, but also the master who taught them it, in the space of ten seconds. He also innovated (or at least is a user of) spinning saberstaff combat. Kas'im can suck on a fat toe.

This isn't remotely on Kas'ims level lmao.

The_Tempest
Honestly, it's significantly more impressive.

Nephthys
Uh, good joke?

Deronn_solo
Originally posted by ILS
Prepare to be educated, sir.

You know 'Swords, I actually know of, and acknowledge all of what's stated here, thing is--- it's not more impressive than Kas'im.



And Kas'im has mastered all 7 Lightsaber forms, and further perfected every move and sequence of them over the years. Don't know about you, but Kas'im seems more impressive on this front. As far as countering goes, I'm pretty sure Kas'im perfection of thousands of sequences and moves across all forms would logically mean he can counter them too.

Especially when he was more technical proficient than Darth Bane(per Dessel's own musing), and the former was able to counter all of those sequences. Granted, it was because of his strength in the Force and insane precognitive skills - but he still had to use his technical skills to know of the counters for it. Hence, the reason he went down like a 15 dollar crack whore when Kas'im switch his lightsaber style. Not mention, he can pretty much change tactics and lightsbaer forms on a whim mid-duel.



Ngl, this is highly impressive prolly more impressive than anything Kas'm has on the analytical standpoint standpoint. But Kas'im seems to be far more proficient in actual practice.

The_Tempest
Originally posted by Nephthys
Uh, good joke?

It's not a joke. The kind of intimate understanding the Inquisitor must possess to not only deduce Kanan's form but the specific person who taught him that form out of 10,000 Jedi? That's insane. Especially when you consider that martial arts, at some point, become idiosyncratic to the user.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by The_Tempest
The kind of intimate understanding the Inquisitor must possess to not only deduce Kanan's form but the specific person who taught him that form out of 10,000 Jedi? That's insane. Especially when you consider that martial arts, at some point, become idiosyncratic to the user.

thumb up

Nephthys
Originally posted by The_Tempest
It's not a joke. The kind of intimate understanding the Inquisitor must possess to not only deduce Kanan's form but the specific person who taught him that form out of 10,000 Jedi? That's insane. Especially when you consider that martial arts, at some point, become idiosyncratic to the user.

Right, or maybe Billaba had a famous style, or was a well known teacher or something. She was a Jedi Council member. Knowing her fighting style isn't that impressive. When studying a field you look at the big names in the field. If the Inquisitor was studying the Jedi archives he'd look into the Council first. Especially if said Council member has a padawan that was known to have never been killed in Order 66. And analytical ability doesn't translate into actual ability. It doesn't have many practical effects. Like Joker pointed out:

"In relying on such a mechanical lightsaber model, the Inquisitor betrays one weakness: his fighting skills are not as potent as his analytical skills." - Ultimate Star Wars

The Inquisitor clearly just watched a bunch of training vids and read the records from the Jedi temple and uses that to spook his opponents. Woo, so impressive.

Hell, the fact that it takes him 10 seconds to identify an opponents form is pretty pathetic considering in most cases Jedi identify their opponents form instantly or from their mere stance. Also the fact that he uses such an obviously shitty weapon proves that he's more about psychology than actual skill.

Compared to Kas'im who mastered every lightsaber form with seemingly every fighting style, utterly perfected every aspect of all of them over decades and created thousands of techniques and sequences for them all by himself, well..... the Inquisitor just doesn't compare. At all. Kas'im has actual skill with a lightsaber and understands the forms on an immensely deep level and is capable of using that knowledge in a practical manner. The Inquisitor just boned up on the Jedi archives and recognized a move a famous Jedi was known for. Honestly, the fact that he apparently devoted enough time to watching Jedi in the archives such that he knows individual styles only points to the fact that he neglected his own training.

Kas'im is always the guy you want to knock down but you've not managed it before and it's hilarious that you honestly think the goddamn Inquisitor can manage it.

The_Tempest
First, calm down.

Second, the fact that the Inquisitor's analytical talents supersede his skills is irrelevant. The text does not state nor imply that either skill is wanting. So I'm not sure what your point is.

Third, again, the fact that the Inquisitor is able to ascertain the person who taught Kanan simply by exchanging blows with him for a few seconds is incredible. I'm aware you know next to nothing about actual fighting, but martial arts are not a set of limited, preprogrammed moves. Ultimately, each fighter conforms his or her style to his or her preferences, strengths, and weaknesses: resulting in highly personal, idiosyncratic disciplines. Lucas even says in the Episode II behind the scenes features that each Jedi has his or her own way of fighting. For The Inquisitor to identify not just the form but the specific teacher so quickly is incredible.

He's clearly beyond Kas'im honestly.

Fourth, you're obviously pretty biased on all things Kas'im whereas I'm not known to be about the Inquisitor. So... Yeah...

Nephthys
The Inquisitor was also outskilled by a half-trained padawan. My point was pretty apparent, the Inquisitor specialized in analytical ability over his actual combat ability. My point is that you're trying to use the Inquisitor's analytical skills to prove his combat skill, despite a source stating that the former was more advanced than the latter. My point is that he's not a high level duelist at all.

Any time a pasty suburban nerd tries to lecture someone about "how actual fighting works" on the internet my eyes just start to drift a little further apart. Like I said, the Inquisitor had full access to Jedi archives as he states in the episode. All he did was read up on an extremely high profile Jedi whose padawan was never terminated. That doesn't indicate jack shit in terms of his actual lightsaber skill. The fact that he's watched a lot of video's about famous jedi doesn't suggest his ability to be transcendent any more than it does Evannova. That he spent so much time watching instead of actually learning is a mark against him. Kas'im actually physically performed the moves, the Inquisitor just watched them being performed.

And you're biased against Kas'im given that, your adorable comments in this thread aside, you've been arguing against him for as long as I've been arguing for him.

NewGuy01
Originally posted by Nephthys
The Inquisitor was also outskilled by a half-trained padawan.

He was training longer than Bane doe

Nephthys
The darkside is quicker, easier.

NewGuy01
Unfortunately that doesn't apply to universal dueling skills.

Nephthys
Um, yes it does. Bane learned at an incredible rate. He mastered vastly more than Kanan became proficient in, in a smaller timeframe.

NewGuy01
...And that's because of the Dark Side? erm

FreshestSlice
Lulz.

Nephthys
Originally posted by NewGuy01
...And that's because of the Dark Side? erm

Yes? Recall that after Bane reconnects to the Dark Side he starts learning at an increased rate. The Dark Side is specifically noted to be quicker and easier. It makes sense, lots of powerful darksiders had excellent learning rates.

The_Tempest
You're full of poop, my son.

?v=5m2yIAxeBHA

At the 5:08 mark, George explains that no Jedi fights the same and that each has his or her own style. This is commensurate with what goes on in the real world: no two practitioners of any given martial arts fight identically; their style becomes idiosyncratic and not pulled from a highly limited set of pre-programmed maneuvers.

So with that in mind, for the Inquisitor to determine not only the form but who taught that person the form is incredible. Which is why the lore is making such a huge deal of his ability to do this, which means it's nowhere near as simple as you desperately want it to be.

Not to mention the fact that the Inquisitor's profile in Everything You Need To Know About Star Wars very clearly states that the Inquisitor has learned to "use" and "counter" each form of lightsaber combat. The idea that he's just watching videos on Youtube and not actually employing this stuff is not only dishonest, it's flat-out wrong. thumb up

The Grand Inquisitor stomps Kas'im tbh.

ILS
The Inquisitor has also killed a number of Jedi; none until Kanan ever survived an encounter with him.

Nephthys
Originally posted by The_Tempest
You're full of poop, my son.

?v=5m2yIAxeBHA

At the 5:08 mark, George explains that no Jedi fights the same and that each has his or her own style. This is commensurate with what goes on in the real world: no two practitioners of any given martial arts fight identically; their style becomes idiosyncratic and not pulled from a highly limited set of pre-programmed maneuvers.

So with that in mind, for the Inquisitor to determine not only the form but who taught that person the form is incredible. Which is why the lore is making such a huge deal of his ability to do this, which means it's nowhere near as simple as you desperately want it to be.

Not to mention the fact that the Inquisitor's profile in Everything You Need To Know About Star Wars very clearly states that the Inquisitor has learned to "use" and "counter" each form of lightsaber combat. The idea that he's just watching videos on Youtube and not actually employing this stuff is not only dishonest, it's flat-out wrong. thumb up

The Grand Inquisitor stomps Kas'im tbh.

The fact that no two Jedi fights the same just makes it less impressive son. All it means is that if Kanan performed a move that Billaba taught him that it would stand out more. It would be impressive if Billaba was just some random Jedi in 10,000 but she was a Council member. One of the absolute most high profile Jedi there were and an obvious target for the Inquisitors research. The Inquisitor identifying her moves isn't that impressive at all. Especially when he had good reason to be looking into Billaba in preparation to encounter her missing student. Hell, maybe he just fcking guessed based off that info and that Kanan was using her favored style. Which is the only thing is gives for a reason for why he knew about Kanan's mentor.

Which is all irrelevant because you're still falling into the fallacy of conflating analytical ability with fighting ability.

Which is the actual impressive thing and what you should be using to indicate the Inquisitor's ability. But still ridiculously far from Kas'ims level. Merely being able to use the forms isn't in Kas'im league of absolute mastery with multiple styles and practically any Jedi knows how to counter the forms. All that means is that you're capable of responding to them. Yawnarific.

I'm fairly certain you're trolling me at this point. Or you're being incredibly silly.

For one thing, Kas'im is smart enough to instantly demolish the Inquisitor's shitty hilt.

Trocity
Originally posted by Nephthys
The Inquisitor identifying her moves isn't that impressive at all. Hell, maybe he just fcking guessed

lol Neph..

Nephthys
Also you failed to respond the fact that the Inquisitor got demolished by the poorly trained Kanan.

ILS
More important than training, the Force is.
Far better skill than Kas'im, Kanan has shown.

FreshestSlice
All these "No, because Bane," arguments! I love 'em!

Nephthys
Originally posted by ILS
More important than training, the Force is.
Far better skill than Kas'im, Kanan has shown.

The whole point of Kanan's victory is that he stopped being afraid anymore. The Inquistor uses psychology to unnerve his opponents and make them doubt themselves. He freaks Kanan out with his knowledge from the Jedi temple, he's constantly Dun Moching and he uses an intimidating weapon that Kanan doesn't know how to counter. But when Kanan stops being afraid he easily beats the guy, the Inquisitor stops talking and see's through his weapon for the weakness that it is.

You can even see on the Inquisitors face, he shits his pants when Kanan says he's not afraid any more and doesn't have a response when Kanan just sticks his blades between his hilts.

Darth Thor
Nah Kanan just got miles better through the season. Inquisitor even notes such.

And according to FPJ Kanan improved by fighting the Inquisitor. That Inq wad his trainer.

And according to one of the new source books Kanan became a full Knight by the end of S1. Although FPJ thinks he's still going through his Jedi trials in S2.

Nephthys
Well obviously he improved, but Kanan also got curbstomped an episode before the final fight and was beaten in that fight even with Ezra's help before Ezra "died" and Kanan managed a turnaround by letting go of his fear. It clearly wasn't that he just "got gud" because it was shown that wasn't enough. Kanan's victory was due to his triumph over his own internal conflicts.

Kanan becoming a Knight doesn't really say much since the guys we're discussing like Kas'im are comically far above a standard Jedi Knight.

FreshestSlice
Since when did becoming a Knight meant one has become an average Knight?

Darth Thor
Which just shows "saber skills" are a lot less important than force enhanced abilities and mind set.

Who said Kanan is only on the level of an average Knight? In any case Inquisitor is much more consistent in his performances than Kanan which is obviously a result of their level of training.

Nephthys
Well the Inquisitor was very effective at weakening his opponents wills and causing them to be afraid, which does hamper their abilities alot, yes. Mind set has always been a huge factor in duels.

Well if he wasn't ready to be a Knight before the end of s1 that doesn't say much for his abilities.

Darth Thor
Yeah but the conversation is really about the Inquisitor's abilities not Kanan's. And Inq wad clearly very skilled and knowledgeable in all forms. And I'm guessing easily capable of handling an average Knight given he was the Grand Inquisitor after all.

Nephthys
Kanan beat the Inquisitor, so his abilities are very relevant to the latters.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by Nephthys
Kanan beat the Inquisitor, so his abilities are very relevant to the latters.


Well not necessarily because you just explained to me yourself how Kanan got beat up by Inq the very previous episode and in the middle of the same fight he won. And how his victory was more to do with Kanan's mind set in that fight than anything else.

Zenwolf
What does any of this have to do with the battle here?

ILS
Well if Zannah is a Kanan level duelist she has no business taking on Savage, God forbid Maul.

Nephthys
You guys are wanking the Inquisitor's skill so hard, yet still putting him below even Savage? If he's as skilled as you guys say wouldn't that just put him above Savage and Maul, lol.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Well not necessarily because you just explained to me yourself how Kanan got beat up by Inq the very previous episode and in the middle of the same fight he won. And how his victory was more to do with Kanan's mind set in that fight than anything else.

Exactly. Even though Kanan is only a half-trained padawan, the Inquisitor can only defeat him if he weakens his will and fills him with fear and doubt. When Kanan is operating at his best, he defeats him. Which doesn't say much for the Inquisitors actual skill level.

ILS
Nah, the Inq and Kanan aren't that high in the movie-era hierarchy. Filoni made that abundantly clear with the whole "Inq wouldn't survive a fight with Kenobi" and "Ghost crew = level 5, Vader = level 80 lol".

At-best, in Filoni's opinion, the Grand Inquisitor is Ventress level but still probably below her.

Maul and Savage are safely above them, hur hur, poor Bane.

Also, technical skill isn't everything. But I'm sure that won't matter until we're no longer debating a Bane-era character whose only saving grace is technical skill.

Nephthys
Ah. Well ok then. Thanks for telling me that stuff that helps my point.

your the one who brought up technical skill tho

so your the dummy

its you

ILS
naw its u

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