Galactus vs Thanos with Cosmic Cube

Mr Master

Originally posted by operator616
Personally i don't think using feats from later stories for the cube is applicable to Thanos. Because the Thanos story happened in the early 70s, and up until that point it was treated as universal (those early Tales of suspense, captain america stories, Avengers all referred to it as universal from what i remember), and the Thanos story also treated it as universal. And given that Thanos utilized the cube to its full potential, yet still never showed any multiversal influence, it wouldn't make sense for the cube NOT to be anymore than universal.
It's a fair point.
But imo, we can call it "universal" or "multiversal" or "omniversal" and it's just a label.
In that story it was all powerful, it made Thanos "God" ... and the wielders are always basically unbeatable outside of plot.
The story didn't call for anything beyond what took place on panel.
Now, had Thanos attempted a feat or something "multiversal" whathaveyou and failed, I'd say yea.

But then again,
per character history Thanos has a habit of not wanting everything even when he can have it. That may explain it. (written by Starlin no less)
Originally posted by operator616

But if stories do not call for a bigger boom, bam, slam, then it's
Still though, i don't disagree that Thanos > Galactus here. Thanos was still around Eternity-level in that story, which is enough to grant him the win over this Galactus.
thumb up

operator616

Originally posted by Mr Master
It's a fair point.
But imo, we can call it "universal" or "multiversal" or "omniversal" and it's just a label.
In that story it was all powerful, it made Thanos "God" ... and the wielders are always basically unbeatable outside of plot.
The story didn't call for anything beyond what took place on panel.
Now, had Thanos attempted a feat or something "multiversal" whathaveyou and failed, I'd say yea.

But then again,
per character history Thanos has a habit of not wanting everything even when he can have it. That may explain it. (written by Starlin no less)

I just don't think that the Cosmic Cube was intended to be anything more than universal in that time period. Thanos did utilize the cube to its full potential, so if Starlin wanted to highlight Cube's multiversal power, then why stop at one universe? ...he could have had Thanos conquer or at least threaten (given that Thanos was still adjusting to his position) other universes.

Just like previously in Tales of Suspense #81, Red Skull was about to bfr Cap into "another dimension" (meaning the writer was aware that other dimensions/universes exist, this was in the 60s after all) yet still had the cosmic cube's power isolated to the universal scale.

Same thing in CA #115, RS hurled Cap "thousand dimensions away" or something, yet still the cube's power wasn't multiversal (even though it could have been, if the writer chose to).

Galan007

Originally posted by operator616
That specific feat, regarding CCU threatening the omniverse in the CE trilogy, was mentioned in a recent handbook -- Blockbusters of the Marvel universe (appendix part):

http://i.imgur.com/f2yuhHT.jpg?1 Cool beans. That further concretes the other bios that mention it. thumb up

operator616

Originally posted by Galan007
Cool beans. That further concretes the other bios that mention it. thumb up

I was posting it because it also specifically mentions the omniversal-threatening part, not because it further cements CET's canonicity.

leonidas

lol

anyway, i think we all agree thanos wins. so, yay.

Galan007

Originally posted by operator616
I was posting it because it also specifically mentions the omniversal-threatening part, not because it further cements CET's canonicity. Christ almighty. It's like you take everything I say as a friggin' argument. roll eyes (sarcastic)

I'm glad that's why you posted the excerpt. I merely commented that it further solidified other evidence, because it does. Boy howdy, you do enjoy semantics wars. thumb down

Mr Master

Originally posted by operator616

I just don't think that the Cosmic Cube was intended to be anything more than universal in that time period. Thanos did utilize the cube to its full potential, so if Starlin wanted to highlight Cube's multiversal power, then why stop at one universe? ...he could have had Thanos conquer or at least threaten (given that Thanos was still adjusting to his position) other universes.

Just like previously in Tales of Suspense #81, Red Skull was about to bfr Cap into "another dimension" (meaning the writer was aware that other dimensions/universes exist, this was in the 60s after all) yet still had the cosmic cube's power isolated to the universal scale.

Same thing in CA #115, RS hurled Cap "thousand dimensions away" or something, yet still the cube's power wasn't multiversal (even though it could have been, if the writer chose to).
But what "full potential" was needed in the story if you think about it?
Also, was it actually stated that Thanos used the CCU to its full potential and this = the universe? (can't recall)
Regardless, Thanos became the universe to/for what? To fight heroes? What more need he do?
The point of him becoming the universe wasn't to fight heroes.
That was just Starling showcasing his power, which in front of heroes, was monumental.
The poor guy resulted to throwing buildings around as an offense
cause the competition was so beneath him when clearly he could've erased them all with a thought.

My reasoning is, what would've been the point of him threatening the multiverse when that wasn't his objective?
His opponents were heroes. (a couple high heralds at best) Becoming the universe was more than enuff.

You asked why stop there?

Well perhaps he could've done more but his famous sub-conscious got to him before that.
That was literally the reason he allowed himself to be stopped in that story as you should know.

*edit: You also can't forget opr that Starlin considered the CCU in that story the power of God. (so, anything is possible)
I don't think he meant TOAA or real world "God/s" ... just "God" in comics. (supreme being sorta-speak like IG, I guess)

Sundipped

^
Yeah kinda lackluster shooting eyebeams and warping reality a bit while merged/becoming one with 616 but like you said, it was against a couple of heralds so meh.

Originally posted by operator616
I was posting it because it also specifically mentions the omniversal-threatening part, not because it further cements CET's canonicity.

http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/rofl.gif

Epicurus

Originally posted by Mr Master
Reed, with the Cosmic Cube ... easily re-creates 616 Galactus:

http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/13985249_CCU_Doom19.jpg

Then re-makes the World & Asgard/Odin: (notice Reed references big G but Uatu says the CCU is greater)

Hungry/weakened Galactus.

Red Skull coveted Galactus' tech after obtaining godlike power from a cosmic cube. A cosmic cube(albeit with some of its charge depleted) also failed to do anything more than ko a resurrected Thanos in the Cancerverse. Canon.

Epicurus

"But if stories do not call for a bigger boom, bam, slam, then it's "

I wonder if this was a quote function botch on Masters' part.

Utrigita

From my perspective the cubes varies greatly in their portrayed power (even more so then Galactus and that says something), however at the end of the day, the Cubes high end feats are simply leagues and bounds above Galactus highest.

Thanos for the win.

Mr Master

Originally posted by Epicurus
"But if stories do not call for a bigger boom, bam, slam, then it's "

I wonder if this was a quote function botch on Masters' part.
It was. sad

... Also, the CCU defeated Galactus' power and then some, and it had nothing to do with hunger.

operator616

Originally posted by Galan007
Christ almighty. It's like you take everything I say as a friggin' argument.

I'm glad that's why you posted the excerpt. I merely commented that it further solidified other evidence, because it does. Boy howdy, you do enjoy semantics wars.

No, that's the last thing i enjoy. I was merely clarifying my post until i saw that i misunderstood your comment. I thought you missed the point of me posting that bio when you said that it cements CET's canoncity. So i clarified that i posted it to confirm the omniversal-part, but then i realized that you were saying that it confirms CET's canonicity on top of confirming the omniversal feat.

So yeah, my mistake. Simple misunderstanding. No biggie. Had a rough day yesterday so i wasn't in my right mind anyway.

Originally posted by Mr Master

But what "full potential" was needed in the story if you think about it?
Also, was it actually stated that Thanos used the CCU to its full potential and this = the universe? (can't recall)
Regardless, Thanos became the universe to/for what? To fight heroes? What more need he do?
The point of him becoming the universe wasn't to fight heroes.
That was just Starling showcasing his power, which in front of heroes, was monumental.
The poor guy resulted to throwing buildings around as an offense
cause the competition was so beneath him when clearly he could've erased them all with a thought.

My reasoning is, what would've been the point of him threatening the multiverse when that wasn't his objective?
His opponents were heroes. (a couple high heralds at best) Becoming the universe was more than enuff.

You asked why stop there?

Well perhaps he could've done more but his famous sub-conscious got to him before that.
That was literally the reason he allowed himself to be stopped in that story as you should know.

*edit: You also can't forget opr that Starlin considered the CCU in that story the power of God. (so, anything is possible)
I don't think he meant TOAA or real world "God/s" ... just "God" in comics. (supreme being sorta-speak like IG, I guess)

When you think about it, the story didn't need Thanos becoming one with the universe to defeat the heroes either (not that he saw them as a threat anyway), so not sure what's your point. Thanos wanted to impress Death, so if he wanted to impress her to the fullest, he'll utilize the cube's full potential to achieve highest power possible, which he did. Becoming one with the universe.

The sub-conscious part has nothing to do with him not willing to dominate other universes, it has to do with him losing sub consciously.

Yes, Starlin -- and previous stories too, for the record -- regarded a Cosmic Cube wielder as God, and Starlin's way of showcasing Cube's ultimate power (it's maximum potential, imo) is having Thanos merge with the universe.

Tell you what; let's set aside all the cube stories after the Captain Marvel story, would you able to say that Thanos is a multiversal power? (you can't, since at that point, no multiversal feat was shown, so no reason to regard it as multiversal). Going by this same logic one could just as easily say that the 4 planet-fed Galactus is a multiversal+ power. Because in the Thor annual (which btw, happened in the same time period where a 4-planet fed Galactus was shown) Galactus was about to destroy the multiverse in his battle with Scrier/The Other, at "normal levels" (there was no mention of him being fed), so one could use this ABC logic to say: Given that a normal Galactus was about to destroy the multiverse, a 4-planet fed Galactus (which makes him > than when he is at Normal levels) is above multiversal power levels. That's exactly what you're doing with Thanos here. And that's just faulty logic and you know it.

Galan007

Originally posted by operator616
No, that's the last thing i enjoy. I was merely clarifying my post until i saw that i misunderstood your comment. I thought you missed the point of me posting that bio when you said that it cements CET's canoncity. So i clarified that i posted it to confirm the omniversal-part, but then i realized that you were saying that it confirms CET's canonicity on top of confirming the omniversal feat.

So yeah, my mistake. Simple misunderstanding. No biggie. Had a rough day yesterday so i wasn't in my right mind anyway. We all have days like that. No worries. smile

Mr Master

SunnyD's vid is making my CPU crash!

Mr Master

Originally posted by operator616

When you think about it, the story didn't need Thanos becoming one with the universe to defeat the heroes either (not that he saw them as a threat anyway), so not sure what's your point. Thanos wanted to impress Death, so if he wanted to impress her to the fullest, he'll utilize the cube's full potential to achieve highest power possible, which he did. Becoming one with the universe.
You're not sure what my point is, and yet I defined it clearly in my previous post.
Still waiting on that scan btw that details Thanos utilizing the CCU to its "full potential" and this = the Universe.
When you post that, this debate concerning the CCU in that specific story ends.

You should email Starlin though as to why Thanos decided to become the universe instead of the "multiverse."
I mean, perhaps as the "multiverse" he would've thrown a city to attack, since as the universe he was using a sky-scrapper building. laughing out loud

Also: "if he wanted to impress her to the fullest" ... (that's subjective thinking imo)
We/you have no idea what's going on inside the mind of that imaginary character in that story,
only Starlin does, since it's his mind. In Starlin's mind, Thanos was "GOD."
Originally posted by operator616

The sub-conscious part has nothing to do with him not willing to dominate other universes, it has to do with him losing sub consciously.
So again, you want to dominate other universes for what?
Also, when has Thanos (historically speaking) been so interested in other realities?

When he had the IG, he only wanted to replace Eternity. (we assume 616)
During the Infinity War arc, he didn't wanna become "god" of another universe only, he wanted the 616 IG instead.
During Marvel the End, he stayed situated in 616 even though he had merged with the omniverse.
(he only left 616 once in order to remake reality a couple 1000 years in the past)

So come to think of it, I can't recall any story where Thanos is out to get realities other than 616. (historically speaking)
Originally posted by operator616

Yes, Starlin -- and previous stories too, for the record -- regarded a Cosmic Cube wielder as God, and Starlin's way of showcasing Cube's ultimate power (it's maximum potential, imo) is having Thanos merge with the universe.
Starlin did label the CCU in the Thanos story ... "GOD."

Still waiting on that scan you have that declares the CCU's "ultimate power" ... "maximum/full potential" ... in the Thanos story was his universal merger.
Originally posted by operator616

Tell you what; let's set aside all the cube stories after the Captain Marvel story, would you able to say that Thanos is a multiversal power? (you can't, since at that point, no multiversal feat was shown, so no reason to regard it as multiversal). Going by this same logic one could just as easily say that the 4 planet-fed Galactus is a multiversal+ power. Because in the Thor annual (which btw, happened in the same time period where a 4-planet fed Galactus was shown) Galactus was about to destroy the multiverse in his battle with Scrier/The Other, at "normal levels" (there was no mention of him being fed), so one could use this ABC logic to say: Given that a normal Galactus was about to destroy the multiverse, a 4-planet fed Galactus (which makes him > than when he is at Normal levels) is above multiversal power levels. That's exactly what you're doing with Thanos here.

And that's just faulty logic and you know it.
Actually, you're hilarious comparison is the greatest of "faulty logics" I've seen.

Stick to Starlin's story involving Thanos/CCU
and lets avoid shit that has absolutely nothing to do with the story in any way shape or form.

Tell you what; let's set aside your hindsight and instead:

Where in the OP is it requested we use Thanos/CCU from the Starlin story strictly?
Because unless specified we can use Thanos with CCU, and all the feats to the present.
The thread starter figured, Thanos can handle a CCU the best, so give it to him,
but I don't think we're limited to only what Thanos has done with a CCU in Starlin's story.

Regardless, Thanos was "GOD."
So universal, multiversal, who gives a shit, if you're GOD, everyone else gets defeated,
unless an impossible paradox occurs and an equal GOD challenges you to a stalemate.

Galan007

Originally posted by Mr Master
SunnyD's vid is making my CPU crash! Time for a better computer, then. wink

Mr Master

^^ pfft

Originally posted by Epicurus

Hungry/weakened Galactus.
Huh? ...

Reed re-created 616 Galactus anew. (he didn't beat up or fix up a "hungry" Galactus)

On the other hand though:

Doom merged with the power of Galactus,
Doom also had the Ultimate Machine, the Sacred Helix of Randac & the Cosmic Control Rod.

Doom thought all this + Galactus' power was > CCU ... but .. how wrong he was!

******************************************

Reed: "This insect" (referring to himself) "holds the Cube."

Doom: "But I hold the power of Galactus" (plus the UM, the SH of R, the CCR)

Oh Really ... You think that makes you bad ass Doom?

Doom, ridiculously amped gets Stomped! ... one shot style by the CCU
Originally posted by Epicurus

Red Skull coveted Galactus' tech after obtaining godlike power from a cosmic cube. A cosmic cube(albeit with some of its charge depleted) also failed to do anything more than ko a resurrected Thanos in the Cancerverse. Canon.
Doom also coveted and believed Galactus was > CCU. but he definitively proven wrong.

The depleted CCU is plot.

operator616

Originally posted by Mr Master
You're not sure what my point is, and yet I defined it clearly in my previous post.

You said that the story didn't necessitate for Thanos to influence other universes, to defeat the heroes.

I said that it wasn't necessary for Thanos to become one with the universe to defeat the heroes either.

Originally posted by Mr Master

You should email Starlin though as to why Thanos decided to become the universe instead of the "multiverse."
I mean, perhaps as the "multiverse" he would've thrown a city to attack, since as the universe he was using a sky-scrapper building. laughing out loud

Irrelevant.

Originally posted by Mr Master
You're not sure what my point is, and yet I defined it clearly in my previous post.
Still waiting on that scan btw that details Thanos utilizing the CCU to its "full potential" and this = the Universe.
When you post that, this debate concerning the CCU in that specific story ends.

Sure thing:

http://i.imgur.com/Fut5s40.jpg?1

It's from the '89 OHOTMU update.

It tells us that Thanos used the Cube's full power to transform himself into a god-like state (merging with the universe).

Guess this part's settled.

Originally posted by Mr Master

Also: "if he wanted to impress her to the fullest" ... (that's subjective thinking imo)
We/you have no idea what's going on inside the mind of that imaginary character in that story,
only Starlin does, since it's his mind. In Starlin's mind, Thanos was "GOD."

That's logical thinking.

We do have an idea what's going through his mind, and it's just that: He seeks ways to impress Death to the fullest, so he'll utilize cube's full potential (like i already mentioned) to the fullest to achieve that (which he did: Merging with the universe).

Originally posted by Mr Master

So again, you want to dominate other universes for what?
Also, when has Thanos (historically speaking) been so interested in other realities?

When he had the IG, he only wanted to replace Eternity. (we assume 616)
During the Infinity War arc, he didn't wanna become "god" of another universe only, he wanted the 616 IG instead.
During Marvel the End, he stayed situated in 616 even though he had merged with the omniverse.
(he only left 616 once in order to remake reality a couple 1000 years in the past)

So come to think of it, I can't recall any story where Thanos is out to get realities other than 616. (historically speaking)

Starlin did label the CCU in the Thanos story ... "GOD."

When he had the IG he only did what was requested of him: erase half of universe's population, and IG doesn't have full multiversal capabilities anyway. But im sure you'll disagree.

This is pretty much irrelevant. Since the first time Thanos achieved ultimate power, he thought that to impress Death, is to show her what his capabilities really are, then he realized (in IG) that showcasing his power is not enough to grant him Death's love. So you'd have a point if the Captain Marvel story happened after that.

Yeah, because "God" is such a rare word used in comics....

Originally posted by Mr Master

Actually, you're hilarious comparison is the greatest of "faulty logics" I've seen.

Stick to Starlin's story involving Thanos/CCU
and lets avoid shit that has absolutely nothing to do with the story in any way shape or form.

Tell you what; let's set aside your hindsight and instead:

Where in the OP is it requested we use Thanos/CCU from the Starlin story strictly?
Because unless specified we can use Thanos with CCU, and all the feats to the present.
The thread starter figured, Thanos can handle a CCU the best, so give it to him,
but I don't think we're limited to only what Thanos has done with a CCU in Starlin's story.

Regardless, Thanos was "GOD."
So universal, multiversal, who gives a shit, if you're GOD, everyone else gets defeated,
unless an impossible paradox occurs and an equal GOD challenges you to a stalemate.

So no counterargument to my Galactus analogy? Just that you find it hilarious.

Basically, you're willing to give Thanos feats from outside stories, but refusing to apply the logic that, according to a story, normal Galactus = multiversal; which would put a 4-planet Galactus at multiversal+ level (i myself disagree with this reasoning, but the logic you're using for Thanos, is the same one im attributing to Galactus). Totally not bias.

Im OK if the OP allows us to use later cube feats for Thanos. I just thought that CCU Thanos = Thanos from the Captain Marvel story.

I think you're putting too much stock in this "God" term; this is a term, as you know, which is used loosely in comics, and "God" can be planatery level, Universal-level, mutiversal-level, etc..

operator616

Originally posted by Mr Master

Huh? ...

Pretty sure that he was referring to the part where Doom (possessing Galactus' powers) was hungry right before Reed took away his powers:

http://i.imgur.com/4qeBPSW.jpg

Galan007

Originally posted by operator616
Sure thing:

http://i.imgur.com/Fut5s40.jpg?1

It's from the '89 OHOTMU update.

It tells us that Thanos used the Cube's full power to transform himself into a god-like state (merging with the universe).

Guess this part's settled. Same thing was stated on panel in Super-Villain Team-Up #17:
http://i.imgur.com/rFJEkxq.jpg

smile

operator616

Originally posted by Galan007
Same thing was stated on panel in Super-Villain Team-Up #17:
http://i.imgur.com/rFJEkxq.jpg

smile

Thanks.

I think it was also stated at other times (like in SS) not too sure though.

But anyway, we have on panel + bio confirmation which is enough.

Edit: Found another one from Captain America annual #7:

http://i.imgur.com/76hpUy1.jpg

"Cube's powers used to the fullest"

Mr Master

Originally posted by operator616

You said that the story didn't necessitate for Thanos to influence other universes, to defeat the heroes.
I said that it wasn't necessary for Thanos to become one with the universe to defeat the heroes either.
Exactly.
Originally posted by operator616

Irrelevant.
But factual.
Originally posted by operator616

Sure thing:

http://i.imgur.com/Fut5s40.jpg?1

It's from the '89 OHOTMU update.
Cool. So the CCU made Thanos GOD and the Universe.

But I never claimed Thanos was multiversal or universal.

I kept repeating that Thanos was GOD, so what he decided to do with that is his business.
If he decided to become the universe, so be it.
Originally posted by operator616

That's logical thinking.

We do have an idea what's going through his mind, and it's just that: He seeks ways to impress Death to the fullest, so he'll utilize cube's full potential (like i already mentioned) to the fullest to achieve that (which he did: Merging with the universe).
I disagree. The story was plotted as is. In that story, that was the ultimate feat necessary.
If he really wanted to impress Death, he wouldn't have allowed himself to be defeated like a b*tch.

See, I can deal in subjective reasoning as well.
Originally posted by operator616

When he had the IG he only did what was requested of him: erase half of universe's population, and IG doesn't have full multiversal capabilities anyway. But im sure you'll disagree.

This is pretty much irrelevant. Since the first time Thanos achieved ultimate power, he thought that to impress Death, is to show her what his capabilities really are, then he realized (in IG) that showcasing his power is not enough to grant him Death's love. So you'd have a point if the Captain Marvel story happened after that.
"What was requested of him?"

Actually, I remember the LT allowing Thanos his way since he only wanted to replace Eternity.
I also remember, in Infinity War, where Thanos' dopple suggested getting an Alternate IG to become "god" of another reality,
and Thanos said No! ... I want 616. (same universe he's always after)
In Marvel the End: Thanos stays withIN 616.

So again, not recalling Thanos being famous for going after realities other than 616.
Originally posted by operator616

Yeah, because "God" is such a rare word used in comics....
Irrelevant to this specific story.
Originally posted by operator616

So no counterargument to my Galactus analogy? Just that you find it hilarious.
Still hilarious btw.

Why should I entertain some left field unrelated wannabee comparative example?
When the fact is your "analogy" has nothing to do with Starlin/CCU/Thanos. (not even indirectly)
Originally posted by operator616

Basically, you're willing to give Thanos feats from outside stories, but refusing to apply the logic that, according to a story, normal Galactus = multiversal; which would put a 4-planet Galactus at multiversal+ level (i myself disagree with this reasoning, but the logic you're using for Thanos, is the same one im attributing to Galactus). Totally not bias.
Oh, again? ... laughing

... Since the term wasn't enuff.
Originally posted by operator616

Im OK if the OP allows us to use later cube feats for Thanos. I just thought that CCU Thanos = Thanos from the Captain Marvel story.
Unless specified ... we use current Thanos, with a CCU and all it's feats, ever.
Originally posted by operator616

I think you're putting too much stock in this "God" term; this is a term, as you know, which is used loosely in comics, and "God" can be planatery level, Universal-level, mutiversal-level, etc..
You put too much stock into a lot of shit (eg. the term universe/multiverse/whathaveyou) but I'm not complaining.

As far as the "God" term being used loosely: I've never seen what you're talking about.
Please do not post tons of scans of idiots being called "A" God, or God-like.

I wanna see, he/she is God! (the almighty/supreme being) period.

Mr Master

Originally posted by operator616

Pretty sure that he was referring to the part where Doom (possessing Galactus' powers) was hungry right before Reed took away his powers:

http://i.imgur.com/4qeBPSW.jpg
I see. While that's inconsequential,
Doom also had, the Ultimate Machine, the Sacred Helix of Randac & the Cosmic Control Rod.

But again, inconsequential. The scan I post of Reed re-creating Galactus anew, doesn't concern his hunger.
Originally posted by Galan007

Same thing was stated on panel in Super-Villain Team-Up #17:
http://i.imgur.com/rFJEkxq.jpg

Took you long enough.
Originally posted by operator616

Edit: Found another one from Captain America annual #7:

http://i.imgur.com/76hpUy1.jpg

"Cube's powers used to the fullest"
thumb up

... But since the OP didn't restrict Thanos to this version, it's irrelevant now.

operator616

Originally posted by Mr Master
Exactly.

Then your point is moot.

Because we already know that Thanos shouldn't have achieved a god-like state (like merging with the universe) to defeat the heroes.

Originally posted by Mr Master

Cool. So the CCU made Thanos GOD and the Universe.

But I never claimed Thanos was multiversal or universal.

I kept repeating that Thanos was GOD, so what he decided to do with that is his business.
If he decided to become the universe, so be it.

...How's that have to do with anything? No one is debating that Thanos was the universe and God; we're debating whether cube's potential back then was universal or not. In which case, it definitely was, as already proved.

Originally posted by Mr Master

I disagree. The story was plotted as is. In that story, that was the ultimate feat necessary.
If he really wanted to impress Death, he wouldn't have allowed himself to be defeated like a b*tch.

See, I can deal in subjective reasoning as well.

So, still in denial i see. Despite being proven wrong.

I don't have anything to prove anymore. Fact is, and that's been my point from the beginning: Thanos used the cube to its full potential, and this full potential was merging with the universe and nothing more.

Except for the part where it was confirmed that he wanted to impress Death:

http://i.imgur.com/uWkVONo.jpg

He didn't consciously lose, but rather sub consciously as you pointed out yourself.

Originally posted by Mr Master

"What was requested of him?"

Actually, I remember the LT allowing Thanos his way since he only wanted to replace Eternity.
I also remember, in Infinity War, where Thanos' dopple suggested getting an Alternate IG to become "god" of another reality,
and Thanos said No! ... I want 616. (same universe he's always after)
In Marvel the End: Thanos stays withIN 616.

So again, not recalling Thanos being famous for going after realities other than 616.

Yeah. What was requested of him. Come on, that was the main plot. There was an imbalance between life and death, so Death brings back Thanos, upgrades him and wants him to wipe out half the universe's population, which Thanos does when he gets the IG. But then he sees that Death is still dissatisfied, since he is superior to her.
Yeah, LT allowed it. Don't see the point. IG Thanos was incapable of taking over the entire multiverse, hence why he chose 616. And LT saw it as a natural occurrence.
Im curious: How come you claim that Thanos bonded with the omniverse (which you're probably basing on the omni-reality statement, which i disagree with), yet stay within 616 reality? Seems a bit contradictory. If he was bonded with the omniverse he'd be omnipresent throughout the omniverse.

Originally posted by Mr Master

Still hilarious btw.

Why should I entertain some left field unrelated wannabee comparative example?
When the fact is your "analogy" has nothing to do with Starlin/CCU/Thanos. (not even indirectly)

Oh, again? ... ... Since the term wasn't enuff.

Im trying to point out how your logic fails, how's that hilarious? Stop avoiding the damn question and answer it: do you agree with the Galactus example (which, again, i don't agree with, but im trying to make a point) i gave that a 4 planet fed Galactus should be at multiversal+ levels of power?

Originally posted by Mr Master

Unless specified ... we use current Thanos, with a CCU and all it's feats, ever.

I have no problem with that; but that's irrelevant to the debate at hand.

Originally posted by Mr Master

You put too much stock into a lot of shit (eg. the term universe/multiverse/whathaveyou) but I'm not complaining.

As far as the "God" term being used loosely: I've never seen what you're talking about.
Please do not post tons of scans of idiots being called "A" God, or God-like.

I wanna see, he/she is God! (the almighty/supreme being) period.

Really, like what? Because i don't know what you mean by terms universe/multiverse.

Yeah, i am very well aware between the difference of "a god" and "God" (supreme being). And my point still stands. You want examples then so be it.

It's not like Red Jack from (Morrison's) Doom Patrol v2 #24, was literally referred himself to as, "God":

http://i.imgur.com/uoAEo2c.jpg?1

It's not like that weak ass pyramid from The Authority v1 #10 (the other scan is from the Authority/Lobo one shot and there are many more), was continually referred to as "God":

http://i.imgur.com/HS7q3vS.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/1hRY1vO.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/k4MQc1U.jpg?1

Same "God" who was literally vein fried by Jenny Sparks (who's a herald level character at best, not to be confused with the reality warper Jenny Quantum).

It's not like Wally was referred to as "God" in many times, one of which is in Supergirl v4 #17:

http://i.imgur.com/TInsoPG.jpg?1

Im gonna get bored if i start listing all the instances where a character claims to be "God". So let's settle this with a last one from Marvel. Norman Osborn saying that he's God in Thunderbolts v1 #120:

http://i.imgur.com/0zM8Oos.jpg?1

Ill stop here but just give me the go and ill list more. Let me know.

It's the same thing as being called "omnipotent"; there's countless examples where a character is referred to as being omnipotent when he isn't, most obvious is Odin, who's literally referred as being omnipotent in most (and i do mean it) of his appearances right from those old JiM issues. Just like Golden Age Superman comics (issue #17 iirc) had Luthor referred to as being "omnipotent" when he only achieved planetary level of omnipotence. Etc.. So yeah, this type of hyperbole has been for a while in comics.

Mr Master

Originally posted by operator616
Then your point is moot.

Because we already know that Thanos shouldn't have achieved a god-like state (like merging with the universe) to defeat the heroes.
Your point is moot. Oh snap, I feel so right now cause I typed that. laughing out loud

Originally posted by operator616

...How's that have to do with anything? No one is debating that Thanos was the universe and God; we're debating whether cube's potential back then was universal or not. In which case, it definitely was, as already proved.
And again, I was never arguing Thanos being universal or multiversal.
I was stating mainly that Thanos was God, so who gives a shit about anything else.
If he was "God" within 616, then he was all mighty within his house.

So, your point is "moot."
Originally posted by operator616

So, still in denial i see. Despite being proven wrong.

I don't have anything to prove anymore. Fact is, and that's been my point from the beginning: Thanos used the cube to its full potential, and this full potential was merging with the universe

and nothing more.
Well, that and become GOD! ... but who's counting.

That aside, you keep coming at me with this disrespectful drivel, and I'll will reciprocate, you can bet on that.
I haven't denied shit ... so take you're poppycock elsewhere. (I even gave yur scan a thumbs up)
If you can't comprehend my posts, ask me to elaborate or clarify, but don't accuse me of intransigence.

I wasn't proven "wrong" since I NEVER claimed the CCU made Thanos "multiversal" or even "universal" for that matter.

Phuck yu think yu are child?

This is the last time I contain myself.
Originally posted by operator616

Yeah. What was requested of him. Come on, that was the main plot. There was an imbalance between life and death, so Death brings back Thanos, upgrades him and wants him to wipe out half the universe's population, which Thanos does when he gets the IG. But then he sees that Death is still dissatisfied, since he is superior to her.
Again, mis-understanding or deflecting what I'm saying.
Originally posted by operator616

Yeah, LT allowed it. Don't see the point.

IG Thanos was incapable of taking over the entire multiverse, hence why he chose 616. And LT saw it as a natural
According to who? ... You? ... Cause according to Starlin/Thanos, he was capable:

http://s5d3.turboimagehost.com/t/18953295_IG_all_universes.jpg

"Supreme Being of This, and all UniverseS"

Thanos jumped out of 616 when he visited the Pre-Historic Age, and the End of the Earth's time.
Thanos' actuality ripple destroyed a planet withIN the Beyond Realm which is located beyond/outside the Multiverse.

-----------------------------------------------------

Like I said, per character history the cat doesn't really aspire to conquer realities other than 616, even though he could.
Originally posted by operator616

Im trying to point out how your logic fails, how's that hilarious? Stop avoiding the damn question and answer it: do you agree with the Galactus example (which, again, i don't agree with, but im trying to make a point) i gave that a 4 planet fed Galactus should be at multiversal+ levels of power?
"irrelevant" ... "moot" ... unrelated gibberish.
Originally posted by operator616

I have no problem with that; but that's irrelevant to the debate at hand.
It was never really an important debate for me, this is your charm, not mine.

So, yea, it's settled that the CCU in the Starlin story made Thanos the Universe.

You proved that, ... but it also made him God! (therefore all-powerful at-least within 616)
Originally posted by operator616

Really, like what? Because i don't know what you mean by terms universe/multiverse.
Everyone else does though.
Originally posted by operator616

Yeah, i am very well aware between the difference of "a god" and "God" (supreme being). And my point still stands. You want examples then so be it.
It's not like Red Jack from (Morrison's) Doom Patrol v2 #24, was literally referred himself to as, "God":
http://i.imgur.com/uoAEo2c.jpg?1
It's not like that weak ass pyramid from The Authority v1 #10 (the other scan is from the Authority/Lobo one shot and there are many more), was continually referred to as "God":
http://i.imgur.com/HS7q3vS.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/1hRY1vO.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/k4MQc1U.jpg?1
Same "God" who was literally vein fried by Jenny Sparks (who's a herald level character at best, not to be confused with the reality warper Jenny Quantum).
It's not like Wally was referred to as "God" in many times, one of which is in Supergirl v4 #17:
http://i.imgur.com/TInsoPG.jpg?1
Im gonna get bored if i start listing all the instances where a character claims to be "God". So let's settle this with a last one from Marvel.

Norman Osborn saying that he's God in Thunderbolts v1 #120:
http://i.imgur.com/0zM8Oos.jpg?1

Ill stop here but just give me the go and ill list more. Let me know.
lmfao ... First, I could care less about what DC does. So all that shit is "moot."

But you really had me on the floor with the the Green Goblin joint.

You really are hilarious!

Ey son, I'm not talking about idiots with delusions of grandeur, with these silly self-proclamations
by buffoons who haven't done jack shit to warrant even the possibility of their boasts being true.

Heck, if I knew that was your misguided aim, I could've done that for ya.
Originally posted by operator616

It's the same thing as being called "omnipotent"; there's countless examples where a character is referred to as being omnipotent when he isn't, most obvious is Odin, who's literally referred as being omnipotent in most (and i do mean it) of his appearances right from those old JiM issues. Just like Golden Age Superman comics (issue #17 iirc) had Luthor referred to as being "omnipotent" when he only achieved planetary level of omnipotence. Etc.. So yeah, this type of hyperbole has been for a while in comics.
Could care less about your DC examples as I've said before, and our debate has nothing to do with the term "omnipotence." (where there are levels)

This is about someone being called God by the writer. (as in, "he/she/name is God ... he/she/name became God)
... and then as you say, they are only planetary, which is laughable.

Galan007

Surprised this hasn't been mentioned yet...

After he actually became God in The End(also written by Starlin, btw), Thanos himself reflects on his stint with the Cube...

"With the Cosmic Cube I had manipulated facets of the divine, a very limited experience.":
http://i.imgur.com/TgLIWFl.jpg

And in the first issue of Thanos' solo series(also written by Starlin, btw) Thanos states that he literally became the Supreme Being/God after gleaning THOTI(duh):
http://i.imgur.com/DY2wFLI.jpg

Point: Starlin clearly revised his opinion of what God/Supreme Being-level power really is over the years. So despite the God-related in-comic dialogue Starlin made decades ago when Thanos wielded the CCU, far more recent dialogue from Starlin's works outright states that Thanos only manipulated certain facets(ie. aspects) of the divine while in possession of the CCU--he only gained true God/Supreme Being-level power after obtaining THOTI. Not saying that Thanos didn't possess a 'level' of infinite power/omnipotence with the CCU or w/e--but he wasn't God. Not in the literal sense, at least. smile

operator616

Originally posted by Mr Master

And again, I was never arguing Thanos being universal or multiversal.
I was stating mainly that Thanos was God, so who gives a shit about anything else.
If he was "God" within 616, then he was all mighty within his house.

So, your point is "moot."

Huh?

So why were you denying that Thanos is only universal, then?

Because that's what this debate has been all about: You denying that Thanos is universal.

Not surprised at your insult-filled response, though. That's how they all end when i disagree with you (Well, at first you're respectful but then you get start getting angrier and angrier, kinda like the hulk). So ill leave it at that.

operator616

Originally posted by Galan007
Surprised this hasn't been mentioned yet...

After he actually became God in The End(also written by Starlin, btw), Thanos himself reflects on his stint with the Cube...

"With the Cosmic Cube I had manipulated facets of the divine, a very limited experience.":
http://i.imgur.com/TgLIWFl.jpg

And in the first issue of Thanos' solo series(also written by Starlin, btw) Thanos states that he literally became the Supreme Being/God after gleaning THOTI(duh):
http://i.imgur.com/DY2wFLI.jpg

Point: Starlin clearly revised his opinion of what God/Supreme Being-level power really is over the years. So despite the God-related in-comic dialogue Starlin made decades ago when Thanos wielded the CCU, far more recent dialogue from Starlin's works outright states that Thanos only manipulated certain facets(ie. aspects) of the divine while in possession of the CCU--he only gained true God/Supreme Being-level power after obtaining THOTI. Not saying that Thanos didn't possess a 'level' of infinite power/omnipotence with the CCU or w/e--but he wasn't God. Not in the literal sense, at least. smile

I was actually going to mention that IG was at a higher level of omnipotence within reality than the cosmic cube....then the thought slipped my mind.

thumb up

Thanos had a "level of infinity" while wielding the CCU. Definitely a level of infinity lower than IG or HOTU. Basically, there are levels of "God" just as there are levels of infinity/omnipotence. HOTU > IG > CCU (all of which were referring to make the user God)

Good post.

Mr Master

^^ Not that good. thumb down

... No one can prove that was Starlin's thought process in the original CCU story.
Originally posted by Galan007
Surprised this hasn't been mentioned yet...

After he actually became God in The End(also written by Starlin, btw), Thanos himself reflects on his stint with the Cube...
"With the Cosmic Cube I had manipulated facets of the divine, a very limited experience.":
http://i.imgur.com/TgLIWFl.jpg
And in the first issue of Thanos' solo series(also written by Starlin, btw) Thanos states that he literally became the Supreme Being/God after gleaning THOTI(duh):
http://i.imgur.com/DY2wFLI.jpg

Point: Starlin clearly revised his opinion
Which is exactly why it hasn't been brought up.
Cause the debate between opr and I was only taking the original story into consideration.

If we're going to use updated info,
I could just as easily start bringing up the later far uber feats the CCU performed.
Which was in fact how this debate between opr and I got started.

But hey,
if there's anything else you can research further to help him out,
by all means be my guest, I've kind of adapted to that frequency.

So far, in the original story, (sans retcons) Thanos was God.

Galan007

Originally posted by Mr Master
Which is exactly why it hasn't been brought up.
Cause the debate between opr and I was only taking the original story into consideration. Then it's a good thing Thanos/Starlin was specifically referring to when he originally acquired a CCU in that scan, eh? thumb up

Originally posted by Mr Master
If we're going to use updated info,
I could just as easily start bringing up the later far uber feats the CCU performed.
Which was in fact how this debate between opr and I got started.

But hey,
if there's anything else you can research further to help him out,
by all means be my guest, I've kind of adapted to that frequency.

So far, in the original story, (sans retcons) Thanos was God. Stop being so bitter. As operator can surely attest: we've disagreed with one another many-a-time(though I do appreciate that said disagreements always stay civil.) It just so happens that I agree with most of what he's saying here.

Shouldn't be that big of a deal, imo. smile

Mr Master

Originally posted by operator616
Huh?

So why were you denying that Thanos is only universal, then?

Because that's what this debate has been all about: You denying that Thanos is universal.
I thought this debate was about you being a prick.

So, where exactly is it that I deny something?

I requested scans, scans were posted and what? What?
I gave a thumbs up, and continued on my main course, the only avenue I followed the entire time from the very beginning:
Originally posted by Mr Master

It's a fair point.

But imo, we can call it "universal" or "multiversal" or "omniversal" and it's just a label.

In that story it was all powerful, it made Thanos "God"
... and the wielders are always basically unbeatable outside of plot.
You proved it was constricted to 616, (I didn't know that) but it wasn't the crux of my point.
Originally posted by operator616

Not surprised at your insult-filled response, though. That's how they all end when i disagree with you (Well, at first you're respectful but then you get start getting angrier and angrier, kinda like the hulk). So ill leave it at that.
Ah, whatever. I am respectful, true, until I see ill sarcasm, condescension, snide jokes, or pompous degrading remarks being made.

Like calling my shit "faulty logic" based on some unrelated example, and then again, and then my shit is "moot."

So, you don't like yur own medicine, don't damage the debate by bringing your pretentiousness in here.

Mr Master

Originally posted by Galan007

Then it's a good thing Thanos/Starlin was specifically referring to when he originally acquired a CCU in that scan, eh?
Not exactly since it's still .. after the fact. stick out tongue

That's also too bad for Thanos, cause it only retcons his particular experience,
but the CCU has still done Godly acts regardless of Starlin's input.
Originally posted by Galan007

Stop being so bitter. As operator can surely attest: we've disagreed with one another many-a-time(though I do appreciate that said disagreements always stay civil.) It just so happens that I agree with most of what he's saying here.

Shouldn't be that big of a deal, imo.
This isn't about opr. wink

Galan007

Originally posted by Mr Master
but the CCU has still done Godly acts regardless of Starlin's input.Oh I agree--different writers are always going to have different opinions about certain characters/artifacts. I'm just talking about the Thanos/Starlin/CCU instance in particular.

Originally posted by Mr Master
This isn't about opr. wink http://25.media.tumblr.com/91c6ac5ff1eb092d1781bed1f764a257/tumblr_mldcxs6Oxz1qa70eyo5_250.gif

cdtm

Originally posted by Mr Master
Celestials may well indeed be above Cube beings. (not including Beyonder who's a special case)

? Special case?

Isn't Beyonder established as below Cube beings after the Secret Wars is retconned?

Galan007

Originally posted by cdtm
? Special case?

Isn't Beyonder established as below Cube beings after the Secret Wars is retconned? While the original intent of the first retcon in F4 #319 was to have Beyonder and Owen as sub-Cube being-level, the events of F4 Annual #27 threw that out the window completely.

...A retcon within a retcon, essentially. thumb up

cdtm

Originally posted by Galan007
^ While that was definitely the intent of the original retcon in F4 #319, the events of F4 Annual #27 pretty much retconned it away.

What about Molecule Man? Where does he stand compared to Cube beings and Beyonder?

I've seen the scans where MM forces Maker into Beyonder, then beats him in a fight... which cames across as a sort of a writer abusing his position to get his fanboy-ish beliefs out in print, but it happened..

Galan007

^ Yeah, that's the battle I'm referencing(from F4 Annual #27) which retcons the notion that Beyonder/Owen were sub-Cube being-level.

The battle between Owen/Beyonder was trans-multiversal in scale:
http://s5d1.turboimagehost.com/t1/18955779_FFANN027_54.jpghttp://s5d1.turboimagehost.com/t1/18955782_FFANN027_55.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/yFJXobR.jpg

Sub-Cube beings simply do not possess power remotely close to that magnitude.

cdtm

Heh, going by that, Beyonder didn't evolve when he became Maker, he took a major downgrade. laughing out loud

Galan007

Yeah, Beyonder's got more retcons/ups-and-downs than any other character I know of--writers simply don't know what to do with him, me thinks.

Hell, his powers seemed to be back to their 'classic' levels during Spider-Man and the Secret Wars(2010):
http://i.imgur.com/9WjapCd.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/sChuP6d.jpg

So who knows..? srug

Mr Master

Originally posted by cdtm
? Special case?

Isn't Beyonder established as below Cube beings after the Secret Wars is retconned?
Galan pretty much covered the bases but one more thing I may add.

As far as Beyonder is concerned he's like a Cube being anomaly.

The only logical reasons I find why Beyonder is more powerful than Kubik or Cube beings:

Unlike other Cube beings who were developed properly (within the
confinement of a Cosmic Containment Unit) which also forces them
to self impose limitations upon reaching sentience (making Cube
beings universal at best we've seen) ...
the Beyonder was conceived by accident, and Not withIN a CCU.

Beyonder's essence/energy/power (which like all other Cube beings
necessitates a CCU to be nurtured correctly into maturity) instead
slipped out of the Beyond Realm and ended up exploding into a
universe occupying it's own space somewhere within the omniverse.
This also allowed Beyonder to develop free of restraints,
thus you have a Cube being (Beyonder) performing feats that
should belong to fully harnessed Cosmic Containment Units.

By the time Beyonder entered a CCU with Owen, it was just to become whole,
he had already developed a consciousness/essence of his own.
This is why Kosmos is almost like another being apart from Beyonder even though it's an incarnation of his. (sharing memories and all)
Thanos called it a prison for Beyonder's "unlimited power." (which Beyonder self-imposed)

Come to think of it, perhaps that was the the CCU in him acting out after entering the CCU with Owen,
perhaps this is why he transformed himself into Kosmos.
(basically a watered down version of himself akin to Cube beings limiting themselves upon sentience)

My, my, that makes sense.

cdtm

Thanks, Mr. M.

One other question:

Originally posted by Mr Master
^^ I forgot about that one actually. thumb up

One could argue its canonicity though.

How so?

And that reference takes me back.. It wasn't a very good game, but by licensed standards it was actually pretty playable...

Epicurus

Originally posted by Mr Master
It was. sad

... Also, the CCU defeated Galactus' power and then some, and it had nothing to do with hunger.
Galactus was hungry when it did so. smile

We know that hungry Galactus is dramatically weaker than a recently fed Galactus. That much is indisputable fact, not up for debate.

Galan007

Originally posted by cdtm
How so?

And that reference takes me back.. It wasn't a very good game, but by licensed standards it was actually pretty playable... He/they were referring to the happenings of "Iron Man/X-O Manowar: In Heavy Metal", wherein a CCU was responsible for not only collapsing multiple omniversal planes of existence, but also restoring said planes...

"The multiverseS topple over like dominoes--one omniversal plane implodes into nothingness--and the next--and the next--until the only thing left of reality--is nothing."
http://i.imgur.com/KaLRjPI.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/zuVGeyp.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/iL6C7eC.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/F4AZ3y1.jpg

The Cube would later be used by Iron Man and X-O to restore the aforementioned:
http://i.imgur.com/1VTHUys.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/yuY6eP0.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/oZCwpIZ.jpg

Absolutely gargantuan display of power for the Cube--it's best showing in any medium, without a doubt. However, like Mr M said: it happened in a crossover, thus its canonicity is... Disputable, at best. In fact, it was released primarily as a promo-book for a video game of the same name(Acclaim owned the rights at the time.)

Mr Master

Originally posted by Epicurus

Galactus was hungry when it did so.
Well, an amped "hungry" Galactus empowered Doom to be exact.
Originally posted by Epicurus

We know that hungry Galactus is dramatically weaker than a recently fed Galactus. That much is indisputable fact, not up for debate.
I agree.

Although, the first post of mine you replied to has nothing to do with Galactus' hunger.

Reed gestured, and Galactus was re-created anew. (this happened after Doom was stomped)

Uatu also stated that the CCU was beyond Galactus. (after Reed re-created G)

operator616

I remember a Marvunapp bio saying that that particular crossover involved Earth-616.

Originally posted by Mr Master

So, where exactly is it that I deny something?

I requested scans, scans were posted and what? What?
I gave a thumbs up, and continued on my main course, the only avenue I followed the entire time from the very beginning:

You proved it was constricted to 616, (I didn't know that) but it wasn't the crux of my point.

You didn't know what was constricted to 616?

Yes, you gave a thumbs up, but you still denied it (not in that post, but the previous one; and in the previous one i still posted that bio which should have settled it).

Anyway, let's just settle this here: Based on the evidence posted, do you agree that the cube's full potential was universal only, back then? If yes (and you should agree, because the evidence speaks for itself), then the argument is finished. And nothing more should be said.

Originally posted by cdtm
What about Molecule Man? Where does he stand compared to Cube beings and Beyonder?

Just something to add:

At first, Owen/Beyonder were below Kubik (despite the fact that their Secret Wars 2 feats were still canon) since Kubik defeated the Beyonder; he even said that his power dwarfs his as i recall. Then when they evolved (after they merged), they apparently got more powerful. And Owen was made > Beyonder (when they were half-cubes, Beyonder was > Owen, this was evident since in SW 2, Beyonder defeated him and since the retcon says that Owen merely had a "small" portion of the cube's energies, while Beyonder had most of it).
In regards to Owen's standing compared to other cube beings: It was confirmed in FF annual #27 (same issue where their trans multiversal fight happened, which Galan posted) that Molecule Man's potential power dwarfs Kubik's:

http://i.imgur.com/Mf8rV1q.jpg?1

btw, Kubik was implied to be multiversal in Avengers #290.

Mr Master

Originally posted by operator616

I remember a Marvunapp bio saying that that particular crossover involved Earth-616.
Awesome. I'd like to see that so I can use it as future reference.
Originally posted by operator616

You didn't know what was constricted to 616?
Thanos' CCU.
Originally posted by operator616

Yes, you gave a thumbs up, but you still denied it
(not in that post, but the previous one; and in the previous one i still posted that bio which should have settled it).
Uhm, perhaps you're misunderstanding my posts, maybe I confused you the way I worded it, but ...

1) I didn't deny jack! So, again you're still talking fantasies.

2) Actually, your bio would have never settled anything. Since on panel > bios.
It was the on panel statements I accepted first, (posted by Galan first) then the bio as a corroboration.

What I did disagree with, was your stance on Thanos going all out to impress Death.
I stated, "he shouldn't have allowed himself to be defeated" if he was on an impression campaign, even if initially that was his aim.

So, pay attention friend before you erroneously yet again, accuse me fallaciously.
Originally posted by operator616

Anyway, let's just settle this here: Based on the evidence posted, do you agree that the cube's full potential was universal only, back then? If yes (and you should agree, because the evidence speaks for itself), then the argument is finished. And nothing more should be said.
The discussion ended for me on the previous page, it's you who's rehashing this.

I already agreed that Thanos became the universe and it was solely constricted to 616.

Again below: (bottom of page 3)
Originally posted by Mr Master

You proved it was constricted to 616, (I didn't know that) but it wasn't the crux of my point.
What more do you want?

It still doesn't change the fact that he was God.
That means to me, whatever you're capable of outside 616 is nice, but if you step into 616 you get stomped.
Originally posted by operator616

btw, Kubik was implied to be multiversal in Avengers #290.
I don't think it was implied that Kubik by his lonesome was potentially multiversal.
I believe you're referring to Kubik's theory based on two Cube being powers confronting.

I'd have to guess the concept of "Synergy" comes into play here.

operator616

^ Yeah, ive heard that before.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Awesome. I'd like to see that so I can use it as future reference.

I already showed it to you in the Phoenix vs Odin (iirc) thread to prove that a scan i provided from that comic is canon, which you were denying.

Anyway, here's the Marvunapp page:

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix3/earthcrossoverall.htm

go to the "what is earth crossover and why aren't all crossovers with other companies included" part, and you'll find this:

Originally posted by Mr Master
maybe I confused you the way I worded it

You confused me by continually saying that Thanos is God, which is why whether he is universal or multiversal is irrelevant or something like that.

I took that as you denying that Thanos was merely universal.

Anyway, since we agree that the CCU was only universal back then, nothing needs to be said anymore.

Mr Master

Originally posted by operator616

^ Yeah, ive heard that before.
Cool, and it makes perfect sense too.
Originally posted by operator616

I already showed it to you in the Phoenix vs Odin (iirc) thread to prove that a scan i provided from that comic is canon,

which you were denying.
Good lord, you can't post without adding a little shitty remark?

You need to smoke some good shit son and get happy.
Originally posted by operator616

Anyway, here's the Marvunapp page:
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix3/earthcrossoverall.htm
go to the "what is earth crossover and why aren't all crossovers with other companies included" part, and you'll find this:
Thank you, I'll read it.

Also, that's all you needed to post, there was no need for the irrelevant recall.
You should remind yourself of the several times I admitted I was wrong and you were right about a detail.
Of course, when the shoe is on your foot, you simply slip away without conceding.
I have several saved links to threads where this has occurred, let me know.

I mean, since your gonna continue to spit on my name by making me synonymous with obtuseness.
Yea, like bringing up this "denying" horse shit concerning another thread, which is a WTF here.
Which is funny cause it's something that I'm known for hating.
I regularly use the term: Intransigence, to address such behavior. (meaning, dismissing/not accepting On Panel evidence)
Originally posted by operator616

You confused me by continually saying that Thanos is God, which is why whether he is universal or multiversal is irrelevant or something like that.
I took that as you denying that Thanos was merely universal.
Anyway, since we agree that the CCU was only universal back then, nothing needs to be said anymore.
I never said it was anything else. My contention was always that he was God, so who cares.
At first, since I hadn't read the story in a while I was unaware it was made clear that the Cube's influence was universal,
but after proof was provided, I was done. The debate then turned nasty and meaningless.

And if you return with more personal attacks, I'll swim in the mud with ya till the end.

MF DELPH

I'd just like to add:

Celestial Muzzle ftw.

That is all.

operator616

Originally posted by Mr Master

Good lord, you can't post without adding a little shitty remark?

You need to smoke some good shit son and get happy.

Thank you, I'll read it.

Also, that's all you needed to post, there was no need for the irrelevant recall.
You should remind yourself of the several times I admitted I was wrong and you were right about a detail.
Of course, when the shoe is on your foot, you simply slip away without conceding.
I have several saved links to threads where this has occurred, let me know.

I mean, since your gonna continue to spit on my name by making me synonymous with obtuseness.
Yea, like bringing up this "denying" horse shit concerning another thread, which is a WTF here.
Which is funny cause it's something that I'm known for hating.
I regularly use the term: Intransigence, to address such behavior. (meaning, dismissing/not accepting On Panel evidence)

I think you're misunderstanding my intention here. First off, in that particular debate, you weren't denying evidence; you were merely denying its canonicity because it's a crossover and you had every right to do so.

So again: you weren't denying its canonciity after i posted the Marvunapp page. Just before, and you have the right to do so.

So i was using the term "denial" in the sense that you weren't accepting it being canon based on it being a crossover and nothing more. I never meant to insult you, i merely added that detail to help you recall and to say that i posted it before.

Same thing with the "moot point" and "faulty logic" insults which you are accusing me of. They weren't meant to insult you. I assure you. It's just that you see insults/personal attacks every time i say something. When in fact, that's the last thing on my mind.

I have absolutely no reason to just randomly bash you or anyone else on this forum. That's not my style. I don't come here to fight or insult.

Im out. Have a good day.

Epicurus

Originally posted by Mr Master
Well, an amped "hungry" Galactus empowered Doom to be exact.
Based on what do you believe he was amped? That doesn't even make any sense honestly speaking.
Originally posted by Mr Master

I agree.

Although, the first post of mine you replied to has nothing to do with Galactus' hunger.

Reed gestured, and Galactus was re-created anew. (this happened after Doom was stomped)

Uatu also stated that the CCU was beyond Galactus. (after Reed re-created G)
It does, because he was hungry in that instance.

He restored Galactus back to normal after catching Doom off-guard. It's not recreation, as much as just undoing Doom's shenanigans via reality warping.

I don't give much credence to Uatu's claims. This is the same guy who has, despite the repeated monologue of being bound to an unbreakable vow of non-interference, broken his vow like a million times on-panel.

Mr Master

Originally posted by operator616

I think you're misunderstanding my intention here. First off, in that particular debate, you weren't denying evidence; you were merely denying its canonicity because it's a crossover and you had every right to do so.

So again: you weren't denying its canonciity after i posted the Marvunapp page. Just before, and you have the right to do so.

So i was using the term "denial" in the sense that you weren't accepting it being canon based on it being a crossover and nothing more. I never meant to insult you, i merely added that detail to help you recall and to say that i posted it before.
You see, now this is beautiful. smile

One pointer though, "deny/denial" is not a good term to exercise to convey what you're saying now.

You should use the term: ... "Skeptical" instead. (as in, 'you were skeptical')

"Deny" is like refusing to believe something that is/proven true, which = to a hard headed one track mind. (intransigence)
Originally posted by operator616

Same thing with the "moot point" and "faulty logic" insults which you are accusing me of. They weren't meant to insult you. I assure you. It's just that you see insults/personal attacks every time i say something. When in fact, that's the last thing on my mind.

I have absolutely no reason to just randomly bash you or anyone else on this forum. That's not my style. I don't come here to fight or insult.

Im out. Have a good day.
thumb up

... When I think someone is wrong about something, I simply post what I believe to be the facts,
and leave out my personal feelings about the person's post. (no matter how ridiculous it may be)

But I also do snap back when I feel someone is trying to taint my name.
I love this place and I'm not having it when I built my bones through years of participation.

Although that's neither here nor there now.

Anyway, I do appreciate this/your post, we can now go back to: friends

Mr Master

Originally posted by Epicurus

Based on what do you believe he was amped? That doesn't even make any sense honestly speaking.
The Ultimate Machine, the Sacred Helix of Randac & the Cosmic Control Rod.

Regardless of the power of this amp, it's an amp.
Originally posted by Epicurus

It does, because he was hungry in that instance.

He restored Galactus back to normal after catching Doom off-guard. It's not recreation, as much as just undoing Doom's shenanigans via reality warping.
He re-created Galactus anew, who wasn't portrayed as being hungry anymore.
Odin was part of the party, so, he got twisted likewise.

btw, When you warp reality, you re-order space-time-matter.
Originally posted by Epicurus

I don't give much credence to Uatu's claims. This is the same guy who has, despite the repeated monologue of being bound to an unbreakable vow of non-interference, broken his vow like a million times on-panel.
That's cool. But the writer had just made Reed remake Galactus, and tp'd all of Earth while choosing to allow G and Uatu to by pass the effects.

I think his statement was justified imo.

Reed also stated that Doom would be master of the universe with just the CCU.

Epicurus

Originally posted by Mr Master
The Ultimate Machine, the Sacred Helix of Randac & the Cosmic Control Rod.

Regardless of the power of this amp, it's an amp.
Were used in conjunction to usurp Galactus' power.

No it's not. The CCU is the only thing which should provide a reasonable boost when added to Galactus' "hungry" power-level, but seeing how Doom discarded it immediately after acquiring what he wanted.....
Originally posted by Mr Master

He re-created Galactus anew, who wasn't portrayed as being hungry anymore.
Odin was part of the party, so, he got twisted likewise.

Again, based on what? For all we know, he decided to go off and seek another planet to satiate his hunger. Which, iirc he did.

Yeah, that's definitely a feat, but I doubt that in modern times a cosmic cube would have the juice to so gesturely manipulate Odin's form against his will.
Originally posted by Mr Master

btw, When you warp reality, you re-order space-time-matter.

That's cool. But the writer had just made Reed remake Galactus, and tp'd all of Earth while choosing to allow G and Uatu to by pass the effects.

I think his statement was justified imo.

Reed also stated that Doom would be master of the universe with just the CCU.
I know what reality warping means. As the Secret Wars retelling showed us, Galactus' mere presence causes unintended reality warps.

Yes, and I don't believe that said feat puts him above and beyond Galactus definitely. Franklin Richards' power has been used twice to revive Galactus now, and neither time did his powers get depleted or were lost(the Abraxas shit was retconned by Hickman). Yet nobody in their right mind would go about claiming that Franklin Richards is above Galactus. Except for maybe Id. And me. Since I am such a big Franklin Richards fanboy. cool

I respectfully disagree.

Then why did Doom go to all the trouble of acquiring Galactus' power in that arc? Heck, why bother with the other devices at all if the cube alone can get the job done? Imo, that arc was very inconsistent.

operator616

It was specifically explained in issue #11, that the cosmic cube is what allowed Doom to overcome Galactus and use his power. the ultimate machine merely provided the knowledge, the helix let doom access the ultimate machine. and the cosmic control rod merely gave him proper control over the cosmic cube and the other items. But power-wise, overpowering Galactus was specfically attributed to the cosmis cube.

Also, Doom had multiversal power. Fully multiversal, in fact. He confirmed it when he said something akin to "all realities are mine".

Epicurus

Originally posted by operator616
Also, Doom had multiversal power. He confirmed when he said something akin to "all realities are mine".
Nah, I'd say that was just character hyperbole. Though given the multiversal-scale feats of CCUs(old school feats) and Galactus(more recent comics), I think there could be something behind that statement.

Galan007

Originally posted by Epicurus
Nah, I'd say that was just character hyperbole. I agree. After all, Thanos said something very similar to that after obtaining the IG--yet we know the IG was not fully multiversal, regardless of his boasting. /shrug

Mr Master

Originally posted by Epicurus

Then why did Doom go to all the trouble of acquiring Galactus' power in that arc? Heck, why bother with the other devices at all if the cube alone can get the job done? Imo, that arc was very inconsistent.
Wait, you're actually implying that the Cube was not intended to be more powerful than Galactus in the story?

If so, we're wasting our time as that is an indisputable fact.

But I will respectfully address your reasonable inquiries. Doom thought G's power > Cube. He was wrong.
Originally posted by operator616

But power-wise, overpowering Galactus was specfically attributed to the cosmis cube.
thumb up

Originally posted by operator616

Also, Doom had multiversal power. Fully multiversal, in fact. He confirmed it when he said something akin to "all realities are mine".
Interesting. I missed that.
Originally posted by Galan007

I agree. After all, Thanos said something very similar to that after obtaining the IG--

yet we know the IG was not fully multiversal, regardless of his boasting. /shrug
When people say that, how exactly is it that "we" or anyone knows that?

There's only evidence that the IG did perform outside 616, and even outside/beyond the Multiverse. (in Thanos' hands)

Did Thanos destroy the multiverse? No. But I wonder, when did he try and failed?

In fact, aside from the Maelstrom comedy, when did Thanos try anything, and failed?

Epicurus

Originally posted by Mr Master
Wait, you're actually implying that the Cube was not intended to be more powerful than Galactus in the story?
I am saying that the arc was inconsistent. Initially we are shown Doom using these artifacts to covet the power of Galactus, but then later it's implied that just one of said artifacts is even more powerful? Awfully blatant inconsistency is not hard to spot.

cdtm

Originally posted by Mr Master
Wait, you're actually implying that the Cube was not intended to be more powerful than Galactus in the story?

If so, we're wasting our time as that is an indisputable fact.

But I will respectfully address your reasonable inquiries. Doom thought G's power > Cube. He was wrong.

thumb up

Interesting. I missed that.

When people say that, how exactly is it that "we" or anyone knows that?

There's only evidence that the IG did perform outside 616, and even outside/beyond the Multiverse. (in Thanos' hands)

Did Thanos destroy the multiverse? No. But I wonder, when did he try and failed?

In fact, aside from the Maelstrom comedy, when did Thanos try anything, and failed?

And that Thanos was so OOC, it should be retconned as a clone or imposter.

Personally, I thought he acted more like Mordru, with his lackeys being pretty obvious analogies of the Fatal Five..

Galan007

Originally posted by Mr Master
When people say that, how exactly is it that "we" or anyone knows that?

There's only evidence that the IG did perform outside 616, and even outside/beyond the Multiverse. (in Thanos' hands)

Did Thanos destroy the multiverse? No. But I wonder, when did he try and failed?

In fact, aside from the Maelstrom comedy, when did Thanos try anything, and failed? It's not about 'trying and failing'. It's about 'never doing'.

I'm not going to believe that a character can affect infinite universes just because they made an empty boast that they could. It takes quantifiable feats to earn a status of that magnitude--flowery statements alone aren't enough.

Mr Master

Originally posted by Galan007
It's not about 'trying and failing'. It's about 'never doing'.

I'm not going to believe that a character can affect infinite universes just because they made an empty boast that they could. It takes quantifiable feats to earn a status of that magnitude--flowery statements alone aren't enough.
Well, imo, the fact that Thanos could pop into any alternate reality (past/future) and be God,
plus easily taking over the center (Eternity) of all reality, (after stomping the cosmic hierarchy)
plus offensively being able to reach literally beyond/outside the trans-infinite Multiverse ... (Beyond Realm)

I like feats as u mentioned. Those are uber feats ... damn ... T gets no love. sad

Galan007

^ Those are absolutely uber feats, not questioning that--they put Thanos /w/ IG solidly in the multi-universal tier, in terms of displayed scope/range of influence. However, he'd only earn a true multiversal status by warping an infinite amount of universes simultaneously, which he never did.

A lesser displayed scope of influence, however, doesn't change the fact that in Marvel the classic IG still made its user the undisputed top-dog of 616(sans legit TOAA-level power, of course.) thumb up

Mr Master

Originally posted by Galan007

^ Those are absolutely uber feats, not questioning that--they put Thanos /w/ IG solidly in the multi-universal tier, in terms of displayed scope/range of influence. However, he'd only earn a true multiversal status by warping an infinite amount of universes simultaneously, which he never did.
But per plot, that wasn't Thanos' interest/aim, so u gotta take that into consideration good friend.
He basically only wanted to replace Eternity, and the LT didn't interfere cause this was confirmed.

Imo, affecting reality withIn the Beyon Realm out ranks anyting that takes place in the multiverse,
because the Beyond Realm makes the trans-infinite multiverse look insignificant.
Originally posted by Galan007

A lesser displayed scope of influence, however, doesn't change the fact that in Marvel the classic IG still made its user the undisputed top-dog of 616(sans legit TOAA-level power, of course.)
Cool, but you also have to add every single alternate reality that situates a Past or Future of 616. (countless)

Galan007

Originally posted by Mr Master
But per plot, that wasn't Thanos' interest/aim, so u gotta take that into consideration good friend.
He basically only wanted to replace Eternity, and the LT didn't interfere cause this was confirmed. Cool. Changes absolutely nothing I've said.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Imo, affecting reality withIn the Beyon Realm out ranks anyting that takes place in the multiverse,
because the Beyond Realm makes the trans-infinite multiverse look insignificant. Yeah, we've discussed this several times before. I believe you're blowing that feat way out of proportion. I do not believe Thanos inadvertently causing an 'actuality ripple' that ultimately reached the Beyond realm, equates to him possessing multiversal+ levels of power. I think that is a tremendous stretch, to say the least.

However, I really don't care to beat that horse to death again in this thread. So IF you comment on said feat, I will simply ignore it. No offense intended, but I can only talk about the same topic so many times before I get sick of it.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Cool, but you also have to add every single alternate reality that situates a Past or Future of 616. (countless) You and I both know that doesn't make him multiversal--not in the literal/true sense.

Also, why are we debating Thanos /w/ IG here? He/it has absolutely nothing to do with this thread.

Mr Master

Originally posted by Galan007

Cool. Changes absolutely nothing I've said.
Imo, it does.
Originally posted by Galan007

Yeah, we've discussed this several times before. I believe you're blowing that feat way out of proportion. I do not believe Thanos inadvertently causing an 'actuality ripple' that ultimately reached the Beyond realm, equates to him possessing multiversal+ levels of power. I think that is a tremendous stretch, to say the least.
That's yur opinion and you know that's cool. But for the record:

It was not an "inadvertent" after affect. It was Thanos' psychic wave of destruction,
that began in 616 and worked its way out of 616 and ended up traveling beyond/outside the Multiverse
affecting reality in the Beyond Realm. It was also labeled his actuality ripple.
Originally posted by Galan007

However, I really don't care to beat that horse to death again in this thread. So IF you comment on said feat, I will simply ignore it. No offense intended, but I can only talk about the same topic so many times before I get sick of it.
Cooly cool, I'm only responding to interpretations being claimed.
Originally posted by Galan007

You and I both know that doesn't make him multiversal--not in the literal/true sense.
I never said multiversal. You highlighted 616. I simply highlighted all the other universes Thanos had access to.
Which is an infinite number of alternate Futures, or any Past there's ever been. (alternate realities likewise) in Marvel.
Originally posted by Galan007

Also, why are we debating Thanos /w/ IG here? He/it has absolutely nothing to do with this thread.
You brought em up. stick out tongue