Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Who wins, the Ancient Dark Lord or the Juggernaut of Sidious?

Sabers, Force, all out

Vader is a bit under Kun in Sabers I feel but not by much. Vaders force abilities out shine Kuns though. But Kuns amulets are an ex factor. I still feel like Vader is stronger than Kun. His TK is one of the strongest in the mythos, and just because Kun can put out more damage than vader via amulets doesn't mean he puts vader down. Vader has tanked some serious stuff in his day, the only way to stop Vader is a killing blow. I say Vader wins via TK and endurance.

IDK

It would be an incredible fight though.

In a battle of the lightsabers I believe Exar Kun will be at the advantage if only slightly. His unique weapon will likely give Vader as much trouble as Maul's doppleganger gave him. In the force Vader has the TK edge. Vader's maneuverability will give him serious trouble in this fight as Exar appears to be rather swift and stronger than he looks to boot. But his incorporation of Makashi supplementing his mastery of Djem So will ultimately prove victorious over Exar's Niman imo, especially with his TK.

This is like the Mountain vs. The Viper in GoTs the difference is Vader doesn't get tired, and he's a lot faster than Exar will likely anticipate. Also Makashi is at a natural advantage against Niman.

What about factoring in Kun's sorcery and amulet blasts? Also I don't recall Makashi having an advantage over Niman, and Vader only uses elements of Makashi in his cobbled together fighting style made up of Djem So, Soresu and Juyo as well.

Originally posted by Nephthys
What about factoring in Kun's sorcery and amulet blasts? Also I don't recall Makashi having an advantage over Niman, and Vader only uses elements of Makashi in his cobbled together fighting style made up of Djem So, Soresu and Juyo as well.


Stated to be an expert at Makashi actually.
"It was said that most Niman practitioners would find it almost impossible to defeat a Makashi practitioner."-The Jedi Path: A Manual for Students of the Force

So? Vader doesn't use Makashi, he uses a combination of various styles. He doesn't favor Makashi. If anything he uses Djem So. Remember that that's why Luke was able to copy it off of him?

Which is obvious bullshit. Jedi Path is a in universe source and its well established in various sources that Niman was widely scorned in the PT era, despite its widespread use. Besides, that quote has nothing to do with a weakness to Makashi, as to the writer talking about a general weakness in the style itself. Regardless, Exar Kun is not most Niman practitioners.

Originally posted by Nephthys
So? Vader doesn't use Makashi, he uses a combination of various styles. He doesn't favor Makashi. If anything he uses Djem So. Remember that that's why Luke was able to copy it off of him?

Yes he does. Its stated he is an expert in Makashi and Djem So.
http://i.imgur.com/4CcK47C.jpg



Obvious bullshit because it doesn't fit your opinion regarding characters you favor and their power level? An in universe expert would know better than you or me about how the lightsaber forms compare to one another. And Vader is not most Makashi practitioners.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Yes he does. Its stated he is an expert in Makashi and Djem So.
http://i.imgur.com/4CcK47C.jpg

Obvious bullshit because it doesn't fit your opinion regarding characters you favor and their power level? An in universe expert would know better than you or me about how the lightsaber forms compare to one another. And Vader is not most Makashi practitioners.

I didn't deny that. What I said was that Vader doesn't utilise Makashi much in combat. He favors Djem So. You might as well say Dooku will use Djem So in combat since he has expert knowledge of it, despite his obvious favoring of Makashi.

No, obvious bullshit because it ignores other factors such as force power. A much more powerful Niman master will pwn a weaker Makashi master regardless of their styles.

In universe characters are prone to bias and inaccuracies. As I just proved above. Expert opinions are hotly contested in the real world all the time.

Lolwut? Just because Vader is an expert in the style doesn't make him superior to most Makashi practitioners.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I didn't deny that. What I said was that Vader doesn't utilise Makashi much in combat. He favors Djem So. You might as well say Dooku will use Djem So in combat since he has expert knowledge of it, despite his obvious favoring of Makashi.

He uses a combination mate. Similar to how Maul uses Niman and Juyo.



No but a Makashi master of similar level will defeat a Niman master.



Except this is an in universe source written with an out of universe perspective. Also there's not a single well know swordsman who solely used Niman. It was so effective with Exar Kun because it was likely a new form and his opponents weren't used to people combining aspects of four forms.



No him being an expert by definition makes him superior to most Makashi practitioners. Also Makashi is superior to Niman because a Niman user incorporates all forms sans Makashi. And Makashi is the bees knees of lightsaber forms when it comes to saber vs. saber.

Okay...

The obvious reason that Makashi practitioners usually beat Niman practitioners is clearly based around the idea that most Niman practitioners have a very relaxed focus on bladework. As such, Niman practitioners with a relaxed focus on bladework would be poorly suited against devoted practitioners of Makashi, who prize themselves on precision, form, and attention to detail, and they would fall in short order.

Kun however does not share the stereotypical relaxed focus on bladework associated with most Niman practitioners. Therefore, Exar Kun does not fall victim to some "weakness against Makashi," which Vader doesn't even practice as his primary form.

Niman's "weakness" against Makashi is one that is resultant from the norms of Niman practitioners and not the style itself...


That being said I think Vader wins, though certainly not for that reason.

The reason people say his style of Niman is different is because Kun fought more offensively as opposed to balanced like more balanced fighters of the PT era. He fought in a more rage based fashion as depicted where he smashed Crado and Vodo into the ground. Its more offensive and likely comparable to Vader's Djem so in that regard

Good point. For a guy using the diplomats form, Kun is extremely aggressive in his use of Niman. Maybe he'll impress Mr. "Aggressive Negotiations" with the cut of his jib.

That being said if a semi-trained can smash through Vader's durasteel arms, Kun whose powerhoused his way through two duelists can likely do the same. Unless ROTJ Luke has some strength feats I'm not aware of, Kun can likely do the same in close quarters combat with Vader.

Originally posted by carthage
That being said if a semi-trained can smash through Vader's durasteel arms, Kun whose powerhoused his way through two duelists can likely do the same. Unless ROTJ Luke has some strength feats I'm not aware of, Kun can likely do the same in close quarters combat with Vader.
OMFG!!!!!

You are completely missing the point of these types of scenes. They are meant to show power and potential for the neophyte, not weakness for the experienced badass.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
The obvious reason that Makashi practitioners usually beat Niman practitioners is clearly based around the idea that most Niman practitioners have a very relaxed focus on bladework. As such, Niman practitioners with a relaxed focus on bladework would be poorly suited against devoted practitioners of Makashi, who prize themselves on precision, form, and attention to detail, and they would fall in short order.

No its because Niman is a jack-of-all trades kind of form, whereas Makashi is the pinnacle of saber vs. saber combat. Just as Makashi is more disadvantaged against Djem So and strength orientated forms. That's not to say that its an auto victory, just one of many advantages Vader will have. Exar also has a tendency to go in to overpower his opponents, a tactic which will simply not work against Vader.



Vader doesn't really have a primary form. Its close to Djem So, but in truth it combines aspects from all 7 forms, which will also lend him to be far more unpredictable.



So you think its just coincidence that the only form that Niman doesn't incorporate it is weak against? Nope.



You're right, as I stated there are several reasons as to why Vader wins this. Also its pretty clear I don't think the Niman weakness against Makashi would solely be enough grant Vader a victory, that's why I gave Exar the victory in sabers.