Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

who wins who dies?

Malgus pwns him.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Malgus pwns him.

Nope.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Malgus pwns him. Doubtful

Malgus loses in a good fight.

If Kenobi can hold off against Anakin in a fight that seamed to last FOREVER! I think he can hold off against Malgus. IMO Kenobi is just as good, if not a better swordman than Dooku.

Originally posted by WildBantha88
Doubtful

Seriously? Malgus one-shot Aryn Leneer, one-shot a Jedi who collapsed two buildings with the Force and choked out 3 members of the Strike Team while fighting the fourth. After he'd TK slapped them and zapped them to their knees. He destroyed a squad of starfighters with a Force Scream, his lightning can burn holes through Jedi at the least and Sidious claims that his battlefield feats have never been equaled.

Meanwhile Kenobi is routinely made a fool of by Dooku and thrown around by Maul. He simply cannot compete with Malgus' Force powers.

Kenobi is Malgus's superior in pure lightsaber combat, however Malgus outstrips Kenobi in the force. In the end Kenobi will fall to Malgus's superior force powers.

Kenobi has shown some great and some bad showing in the force. I don't think Malgus could desmiss him the way he did Aryn But Kenobi is his force wielding less. But Kenobi should beat him in a ligthsaber duel

Except Aryn is more powerful than Kenobi, given that she could toss a 6-car cargo tram with a gesture, utterly pwn Sith Lords with TK and she blocked Malgus' lightning in mid-air at one point (which had previously overpowered the lightsaber defense of the guy who collapsed 2 buildings and still packed enough of a punch to burn through his chest while doing so). That the amp he gets mid-way through their second duel allowed him to casually one-shot her is significant because of how much of a badass she was.

And Malgus dismissed her 15 years before his prime. Emperor Malgus was pwning 3 of the TOR protagonists. He'd ragdoll Kenobi just like he did them.

The way your saying it, you think Malgus is like plageuis level or something

You guys are all *******, Malgus wins due to his force abilities. Unless Kenobi can get close range.

Originally posted by WildBantha88
The way your saying it, you think Malgus is like plageuis level or something

You don't need to be Plageuis level to ragdoll Kenobi. Though Malgus isn't that far off tbh.

Obis soresu might prove a problem for malgus a very hard choice indeed. malgus might have to use the force

Lol @ Kenobi being superior to Malgus in lightsaber combat, you mean his PIS defeat of Maul and constantly just stalemating Maul in TCW, beating a weakened Grievous, and constantly getting shitcanned by Dooku as being superior to Malgus?

Malgus would take him in sabers and send him flying like every other darksider has in the TCW series.

Malgus wins

Originally posted by Nephthys
Malgus pwns him.

Yea, I'm with Malgus on this one.

Emperor Malgus destroys, yeah. Deceived Malgus would be a good fight tho.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Kenobi is Malgus's superior in pure lightsaber combat, however Malgus outstrips Kenobi in the force. In the end Kenobi will fall to Malgus's superior force powers. this sums it up quite nicely.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Emperor Malgus destroys, yeah. Deceived Malgus would be a good fight tho.

That's actually very true. Kenobi takes Deceived Malgus down.

meh, I can see it going either way personally.

Kenobi isn't one shotting Malgus or beating him. He struggled like hell against Grievous in ROTS, and even with as good as his defense is due to his mastery of Soresu. All Malgus has to do is Force wave him and he goes flying. Kenobi's lack of force defense is a death sentence against Malgus, and in terms of sabers Malgus can keep him on the defensive and then kill him with his force abilities. I'd like to know where Kenobi is better in any way, other than winning a match that was necessary due to PIS or the necessity of the plot.

Deceived Malgus still defeats Kenobi

1. He handily defeated Grevious in ROTS, the only thing he really struggled with was the 20 strikes per second.

2. Malgus isn't the type of person to immediately go and overwhelm someone with the force. I didn't see Zallow get TK raped did you? Except for that one force push of course, which was when Zallow was in mid-air, and he still got right back up.

3. In pure sabers Malgus as of Deceived is not quite as good as kenobi, and he rarely uses TK to utterly overwhelm a strong opponent. He might get a good push in like against Zallow, but it's hardly an unbeatable trump card.

4. Writing off Kenobi's best wins as PIS is stupid. You can do that for alot of other characters, y'know.

Deceived Malgus vs. Kenobi is still a close fight.

Malgus throws people around and pwns them with lightning all the time, idk what you're talking about.

Random mook jedi don't constitute opponents like Zallow. Which is what I was referencing.

Unless Savage's TK feats are better, Kenobi has gone flying to Maul and Savage and been choked out by Ventress. If Deceived Malgus pushes him, he's airborne based on his past experience with other darkside users. He has no force defense at all, and secondly, Malgus just has to put pressure on him with sabers and that's it. Even if he didn't have him matched in sabers (which is false), he'd just have to keep him pressured enough to kill him with a basic force attack.



Malgus was utilizing telekinesis multiple times in the temple fight. He sent Jedi flying, ragdolled them, and brought down pillars crushing them. To say he wouldn't use TK against Kenobi is not factual based on the circumstances of the fight he had prior to Zallow, and based on his other fights we've seen him in.



Yeah except a Padwan can defeat the "most skilled Sith" in history, when he's in a pit, and Maul just gloats and dances around because Kenobi had him beat through skill, right? Lol. His defeat of Anakin was necessary to put him in the suit, he knew Anakin's style well, and he was fighting him emotionally compromised. Anakin's feats put him well above Kenobi.



The novelization speed doesn't go well with the speed Grievous had in TCW which had him so slow even Ashoka could defend against him. Grievous's abilities are inconsistent and the fact Kenobi could beat another weak version of him is hardly impressive.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Random mook jedi don't constitute opponents like Zallow. Which is what I was referencing.

They do when random mook Jedi have about the same force defense as Zallow and Kenobi.

Originally posted by carthage
The novelization speed doesn't go well with the speed Grievous had in TCW which had him so slow even Ashoka could defend against him. Grievous's abilities are inconsistent and the fact Kenobi could beat another weak version of him is hardly impressive.
I'm sorry, but are you seriously writing off Grievous as weak?!!

No I said his combat speed isn't consistent with the ROTS novelization, and he beat a weakened version of him in comparison to past incarnations. It isn't that good of a feat imo. I don't think Grievous is weak, but the one Kenobi fought was nothing compared to ones we've seen in the past.

Grievous is weak, CW and ROTS at least.

^

1. Grevious was kind of toying with ahsoka....

2. I was mostly referring to his consistent stalemating of Maul in TCW.

3:

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Random mook jedi don't constitute opponents like Zallow. Which is what I was referencing.

4. You're not talking about rage mode savage, are you? The same Savage who also choked out Dooku and Ventress simultaneously? In the same occurence that Obi Wan was being choked out by Ventress, Anakin was being choked out. Unless you think Ventress>Dooku, this hardly makes kenobi shitty.

5. Are you implying that defeating Ven Zallow in a good/close fight=stalemating Darth Maul? It really doesn't. Obi Wan's TK feats are just as, if not better than, Zallow's, and Zallow wasn't TK stomped.

Originally posted by carthage
They do when random mook Jedi have about the same force defense as Zallow and Kenobi.

lol.

The broader point that Neph and I make is that he has no force defense to speak of. It doesn't matter whether it's from Maul, Savage, Ventress, or Dooku as all of those respective have taken out Kenobi with their force powers. Also most of Kenobi's fights are stalemates which hardly say anything about Kenobi's skill to win conclusively. I never said he was a shitty fighter, just that in an all out match with Malgus he's going to lose due to his crippling weakness of lack of force defense other than weakness in sabers.

Of course Kenobi has better feats than Zallow, he had a cartoon series, comic books, and three full lengths films to showcase how he can win due to plot relevance, stalemate the same people he's fought 50,000 times before to demonstrate his "abilities".

Originally posted by carthage
(trys to insinuate that Kenobi is a shitty fighter)

I never said he was a shitty fighter, just that...

(Continues to insinuate that Kenobi is a shitty fighter)

I'm not sure where you're getting I said he was a shitty fighter, he's one of the best of the order. He just beat a weaker version of an inconsistently depicted fighter, do you want me to consider that a stellar feat? I also contest the fact that he defeated TPM Maul and Anakin ROTS out of skill, he didn't. I never questioned his abilities as a duelist at large.

Let's look at the people who've ragdolled Kenobi:

Dooku: well, he's ****ing Dooku. He's better than Deceived Malgus in the force.

TCW Maul: This is probably the most difficult one. Deceived Malgus might be TCW Maul's equal in the force, however it doesn't change the fact that Malgus wasn't capable of utterly overwhelming Zallow with the force, who as far as i'm concerned isn't better than Kenobi in any way.

Savage: Well, this was rage mode Savage, who choked out dooku and ventress at the same time. Kenobi isnt bad for being ragdolled here.

Ventress: She was choking out kenobi and anakin simultaneously, something even dooku hasn't done. kenobi isn't bad for being choked out here.

Deceived Malgus is every bit the equal to Dooku and Maul in the Force and his lightning is superior. Malgus tossed around Satele Shan and Aryn Leneer in combat, so he'll obviously do the same to Obi-Wan. This isn't to say Malgus will ragdoll him off the bat (maybe), but he will beat Obi-Wan with lightning or TK.

Pointing out that Zallow is lesser than Kenobi is stupid because Zallow's only showing is in his battle against Malgus, so he can't be established to be equal to or weaker than Kenobi based on showings. He showed himself near equal to Malgus, who has the feats to prove he's above Kenobi. By that regard, so is Zallow. Though Malgus never utilised lightning against him so that might have changed things. It's his best attribute imo.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Deceived Malgus is every bit the equal to Dooku and Maul in the Force and his lightning is superior. Malgus tossed around Satele Shan and Aryn Leneer in combat, so he'll obviously do the same to Obi-Wan. This isn't to say Malgus will ragdoll him off the bat (maybe), but he will beat Obi-Wan with lightning or TK.

Pointing out that Zallow is lesser than Kenobi is stupid because Zallow's only showing is in his battle against Malgus, so he can't be established to be equal to or weaker than Kenobi based on showings. He showed himself near equal to Malgus, who has the feats to prove he's above Kenobi. By that regard, so is Zallow. Though Malgus never utilised lightning against him so that might have changed things. It's his best attribute imo.

Hahaha no. Decieved Malgus doesn't surpass Dooku levels until TOR.

I didn't say surpass, I said equal. With better lightning.

(not counting his "one with teh darkside" amp at the end)

Originally posted by Nephthys
I didn't say surpass, I said equal. With better lightning.

(not counting his "one with teh darkside" amp at the end)

Not at all. Malgus is roughly Maul level in Decieved. Dooku is superior to Maul. That's where you made your mistake.

No mistake was made. A comparison between them shows no advantage to Dooku. TK? No difference. Dueling? Dooku. Lightning? Malgus.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No mistake was made. A comparison between them shows no advantage to Dooku. TK? No difference. Dueling? Dooku. Lightning? Malgus.

Nah Dooku takes TK, dueling and lightning.

I'm sorry, I thought we were being serious. But I guess Malgus godstomps Dooku and puts Ventress in her place (on his dick) atop his corpse.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm sorry, I thought we were being serious. But I guess Malgus godstomps Dooku and puts Ventress in her place (on his dick) atop his corpse.

Dooku gets TK scaling from Savage via the orbalisk feat, and from Anakin considering he's blasted through his defenses several times. And Anakin's TK feats trump Malgus'. In lightning Dooku has lightning on par with Malgus' until he becomes Emperor, and he's a superior duelist.

Malgus tossing aside a mountain of rubble while wounded is every bit equal to Dooku lifting those obalisks. Eh, Dooku hasn't overpowered Anakin is straight TK often. Plus Malgus and Leneer > Anakin in TK too. God no does Anakin trump Malgus there, he doesn't even trump that nameless Zabrak Jedi. Dooku's lightning has absolutely nothing putting it on par with Malgus' and he's not superior by much in dueling.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Malgus tossing aside a mountain of rubble while wounded is every bit equal to Dooku lifting those obalisks. Eh, Dooku hasn't overpowered Anakin is straight TK often. Plus Malgus and Leneer > Anakin in TK too. God no does Anakin trump Malgus there, he doesn't even trump that nameless Zabrak Jedi. Dooku's lightning has absolutely nothing putting it on par with Malgus' and he's not superior by much in dueling.

Not really if 2 are roughly equal to a shuttle. Not to mention the feat I already posted from Anakin.

Nope they are not. Aside from killing like 6-7 force sensitives in a single blast? As of Decieved? He's pretty far above Malgus.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Not really if 2 are roughly equal to a shuttle. Not to mention the feat I already posted from Anakin.

Nope they are not. Aside from killing like 6-7 force sensitives in a single blast? As of Decieved? He's pretty far above Malgus.

Yeah really, since throwing something is far superior to just lifting it. Savage moved the shuttle after he'd figured out his power and could lift the obalisks (while being zapped by lightning). Even before then he was partially lifting 4 of them.

Yes they are. Yeah, aside from killing some weak as hell mooks with no defenses. No, he's not. Apprentice Malgus beat Kao who I put at about Kit Fisto level. By Deceived Malgus is at least on par with CW Anakin. At least.

Malgus, as of Deceived, is equal to Maul?

Some people have lost their minds and evaluation abilities as well.

Malgus is in a different league then both Maul and Dooku. Book of Sith: Secrets of the Dark Side makes it clear that Bane, Malgus, Talzin, Syn and Plagueis are among the greatest of the dark lords in history. Malgus, in particular, have been noted to be unparalleled in combat prowess.

something I find funny is how people compare Malgus to both Dooku and Vader. that's like comparing someone to kit fisto and then mace windu.

Dooku is not to Vader as Fisto is to Windu. They're much closer than that.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Dooku is not to Vader as Fisto is to Windu. They're much closer than that. Yes but the point remains, they are on different levels. Personally think Malgus is above Dooku but below Vader

Originally posted by WildBantha88
Yes but the point remains, they are on different levels. Personally think Malgus is above Dooku but below Vader
I agree with that assessment.

Originally posted by WildBantha88
Yes but the point remains, they are on different levels. Personally think Malgus is above Dooku but below Vader
Vader isn't better then Malgus and no where this have been implied.

In-fact, Book of Sith - Secrets of the Dark Side implies that Malgus is superior to Vader as well; through the perceptions of Sidious, this had been implied.

Malgus was so strong that he single-handedly won many battles. His battlefield feats have never been duplicated as per Sidious. He also have history of destroying powerful opponents, something that Vader found to be extremely difficult regardless of the hype surrounding him.

Vader was extremely good but he was handicapped in his abilities after his injuries and Malgus have no such restrictions. Malgus continued to grow in power with passage of time.

I put Malgus above Vader, though only during his tenure as Emperor, where his strength in the force was rather monstrous.

The way I see it, pre-Aleema Malgus is slightly inferior to Maul, while post-Aleema Malgus is slightly superior to him.

Emperor Malgus is probably just a cut under Dooku.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
The way I see it, pre-Aleema Malgus is slightly inferior to Maul, while post-Aleema Malgus is slightly superior to him.

Emperor Malgus is probably just a cut under Dooku.
You don't pay attention or do you?

Why would someone as great as Sidious would be inspired by Malgus if his own apprentices were better then the latter? I mean common sense is really lacking, right?

Malgus is in a different league in comparison to Maul, Dooku and Vader. Deal with it.

Malgus is too much for Kenobi.

LOL at people comparing Maul to Malgus. He destroyed Darach(far superior to Qui Gon, or Kenobi for that matter) in an enraged state well BEFORE his prime.

Kenobi would fare better than Zallow but I can't give him more than that.

Bump

Malgus in a close fight.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
I put Malgus above Vader

Heh.

Originally posted by Darth Martin
Kenobi would fare better than Zallow but I can't give him more than that.

You act like faring better than Zallow isn't in the ballpark of winning.

Malgus in a brutal as **** fight

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
I put Malgus above Vaderhttps://m.popkey.co/f10866/6meqk.gif

RotS Obi-Wan should win, tbh.

Kenobi has more skill but Malgus would still beat the shit out of him. He's had trouble with Savage's strength before and Gus is probably stronger than him

Originally posted by SunRazer
RotS Obi-Wan should win, tbh.

Seriously? Malgus one-shot Aryn Leneer, one-shot a Jedi who collapsed two buildings with the Force and choked out 3 members of the Strike Team while fighting the fourth. After he'd TK slapped them and zapped them to their knees. He destroyed a squad of starfighters with a Force Scream, his lightning can burn holes through Jedi at the least and Sidious claims that his battlefield feats have never been equaled.

Meanwhile Kenobi is routinely made a fool of by Dooku and thrown around by Maul. He simply cannot compete with Malgus' Force powers.

Also choked by Ventress and placed in stasis, but he can blow up Durge so that means no one other than Maul can ragdoll him cuz reasons

God I enjoy just how much ignorance of context people like to spew out; when Asajj did what she did to Kenobi, he was breathing a toxin that would damn near melted the lungs of a Jedi Master(it took all of said Master's strength to keep it from eating him from the inside out).

And Dooku and Maul making fools out of him, would be more of a good feat for them. I can just as easily say Aryn isn't impressive, because she got TKed by Malgus.

Obi wins.

Kenobi twerks.

Originally posted by MythLord
God I enjoy just how much ignorance of context people like to spew out; when Asajj did what she did to Kenobi, he was breathing a toxin that would damn near melted the lungs of a Jedi Master(it took all of said Master's strength to keep it from eating him from the inside out).

And Dooku and Maul making fools out of him, would be more of a good feat for them. I can just as easily say Aryn isn't impressive, because she got TKed by Malgus.

Obi wins.

She also choked them him out again while he was unharmed/with Anakin, but ok he obviously can't do it when that's not the only example. Kenobi's track record doesn't really support your statement, but ok.

Malgus obviously can't tool him where every other darksider can.

Gonna go with Malgus.

Malgus. The Force gap is noticeably bigger than the one in sabers.

Actually, I'm on the fence now regarding how Malgus can take him down with the Force.

Malgus is a very clear superior to Kenobi in the Force, search your feelings Nova, you know it to be true.

I know Malgus is stronger. I'm just not sure if he can ragdoll RotS Obi-Wan. Are there any quotes for how much Obi-Wan's improved since TCW?

According to Dooku he improved as a swordsman, his most impressive feat by far is deflecting Vader's TK blasts in the novel though. But Malgus was ragdolling the strike team that killed Revan two chapters earlier, like seriously Nova.

I don't count Malgus' Strike Team Choking. And that isn't necessary to make a case for him ragdolling Obi-Wan, tbh.

But you take unsubstantiated cut content seriously mmm

Makes total sense an enraged Ventress can choke him out, versus an enraged. Malgus before his prime who can blow up Ships/shake entire buildings with force screams who can't

Is there any quote that says he became more powerful as of ROTS?

Unsubstantiated? I'm taking stuff that Obsidian wanted in there and had in their game files. This stuff all happens as cutscenes, anyway. I'm not taking things like Atris blitzing Traya seriously.

TOR's different from KotOR II because there's no need to do fancy fluff in the KotOR games to make the bosses look powerful. For that matter, you can curb the bosses quite easily. TOR, as an MMO, needs to establish its bosses as a threat to entire parties - so they add all of this stupid game mechanic fluff in.

Double standard confirmed.

You might think that.

Anyways, I'm thinking that Malgus can take down Obi-Wan with the Force before Obi-Wan can win through sabers, now.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I don't count Malgus' Strike Team Choking. And that isn't necessary to make a case for him ragdolling Obi-Wan, tbh.

Not what I was referring to:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/4487499-2735228515-m8eBr.gif

Not to mention:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124590/4487500-4359773626-44874.gif

I take it as him catching them off-guard, because there's no way he can actually do that with their defenses up and still lose.

You mean besides him doing it repeatedly in scripted in-game events? It's a feat of emdurance for them, just like not getting crushed by Revan's meteor shower.

When does he repeatedly bring them to their knees with Lightning?

Originally posted by carthage
She also choked them him out again while he was unharmed/with Anakin, but ok he obviously can't do it when that's not the only example. Kenobi's track record doesn't really support your statement, but ok.

Malgus obviously can't tool him where every other darksider can.

So while enraged, and in a media more inconsistent than Trump's campaign. Everyone chokes everyone in TCW, that means Malgus can just as easily hurl around Anakin since he got choked by Asajj.

Besides, Kenobi later improved considerably and he telekinetically manipulated Asajj in Dark Disciple prior to growing even more powerful, so clearly by RotS he should be notably above Ventress' paygrade.

Proof that Obi-Wan grew more powerful? I doubt very much that Obi-Wan ever grew notably more powerful than Ventress.

It's stated in LoE and just comparing him getting humiliated by Dooku in S6 to him actually giving the Count grief in RotS seems to imply a noticeable powergrowth.

Even assuming he didn't grow in power, he still managed to both trade blows with Asajj in TK pre-prime, and later pull her helplessly in Dark Disciple, IIRC.

So her choking him once out while enraged should speak very little on if Malgus should throw him around just cuz Dooku/Maul did it.

Wait? Actually giving him grief? Obi-Wan barely lasts 10 seconds in RotS, lol. He was humiliated even worse than ever.

Where is it stated in LoE? Do you have a quote? Or a quote for him TK'ing Ventress?

Malgus could easily choke Ventress, so it hardly matters. Malgus is miles superior to Kenobi with the Force.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Wait? Actually giving him grief? Obi-Wan barely lasts 10 seconds in RotS, lol. He was humiliated even worse than ever.

In a duel? Hardly.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Where is it stated in LoE? Do you have a quote? Or a quote for him TK'ing Ventress?

Not on hand, no. I'll try and find them.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Malgus could easily choke Ventress, so it hardly matters. Malgus is miles superior to Kenobi with the Force.

No, not really.

Originally posted by AncientPower
You mean besides him doing it repeatedly in scripted in-game events? It's a feat of emdurance for them, just like not getting crushed by Revan's meteor shower.

Wait, are you actually implying that the strike team took those meteors head on instead of dodging?

Originally posted by MythLord
So while enraged, and in a media more inconsistent than Trump's campaign. Everyone chokes everyone in TCW, that means Malgus can just as easily hurl around Anakin since he got choked by Asajj.

Besides, Kenobi later improved considerably and he telekinetically manipulated Asajj in Dark Disciple prior to growing even more powerful, so clearly by RotS he should be notably above Ventress' paygrade.

The fact being you haven't actually refuted that every darkside he faced has tooled him, and Malgus per feats and accolades is Ventress's superior in the force. Her best feats are destroying Battle droids and uprooting trees in DD, she didn't vastly increase in Dark Disciple, lol. Again do you have a quote for him becoming greater in ROTS?

Every Darksider he faced? Anakin on Mustafar hardly seems to be tooling him, and Asajj only ever did that with circumstances, Maul also did that only with circumstances all but once.

As per feats and accolades, Malgus should be superior to Asajj, but so is Kenobi so what's your point?

I'm referring to Kenobi's powergrowth.

Well, besides performing much better against the good Count in RotS than he did in Season 6, there's the fact that in LoE Anakin notes he and Kenobi both grew stronger:

Anakin was in a weakened state in ROTS, he was struggling between Padme and his friendship with Kenobi he was in no position to do anything. The quote you selected is Anakin's opinion, not based on anything from the end of TCW up to ROTS in actual accolades/feats. Lol what? Dooku ragdolled him even with ease in ROTS ht and chucked him into the side like nothing.

Originally posted by carthage
Anakin was in a weakened state in ROTS, he was struggling between Padme and his friendship with Kenobi he was in no position to do anything. The quote you selected is Anakin's opinion, not based on anything from the end of TCW up to ROTS in actual accolades/feats. Lol what? Dooku ragdolled him even with ease in ROTS ht and chucked him into the side like nothing.

And? That Anakin, while also on a geyser of Light Side energy that would obviously hinder a Dark Sider, casually collapses and throws around massive chunks of a statue.
Besides, padawan Anakin hurled a tank to hard it had the effect of a bomb on a small army of droids(noting this is a TCW-based novel, where most Force users are at their lowest), and I doubt anybody's going to argue Mustafar Lord Vader < padawan Anakin.

Plus, that's not the point I was making; my point was not every Dark Sider tools Kenobi, as you tried to pass off is the case.

Anakin has intimate familiarity with Obi-Wan, though. If anyone is to judge Kenobi's skill and power, it's him. Plus, the second half of his statement is true -- Skywalker did grow vastly in the last months of the Clone Wars. So why would the other be completely false?

I'm referring to how Kenobi's physical augmentation and dueling skill is suddenly comparable to the Count's, and how the RotS junior novelisation opens up the possibility that Kenobi, if he draws enough from the Force, can counter Dooku's choke. It's unknown if he'd succeed, but the fact that said possibility is even mentioned implies he isn't just going to be Dooku's puppet ala Quinlan Vos or Asajj Ventress.

The Jedi temple is actually a darkside nexus, not a lightside one.

The RotS novel outright says it's the greatest LS nexus in the galaxy, though.

Originally posted by MythLord
The RotS novel outright says it's the greatest LS nexus in the galaxy, though. That it does.

The novel claims it's a "Fountain of Light" so during PT times, it's an LS nexus:

It was retconned. Theres an ancient Sith alter or something underneath the temple that the Jedi unsuccessfully tried to overcome.

In context of when Annie did his feats inside the Temple, though, it was still considered an LS nexus.

BTW, quote for that?

Doesn't matter.

"When the Sith built their shrine on Coruscant, they did so over a powerful light side vergence. This decision was made in an attempt to corrupt the vergence and use its power to fuel dark ties. Their plan worked to a point, and by the time the Jedi took Coruscant and pulled the shrine down, the vergence had become corrupted with dark side energies. The Jedi were well aware of the dark side corruption of the vergence, but believed they could reverse the process and return the vergence to the light side. Thus, they built their new temple atop the foundations of the old Sith shrine. Unfortunately, the Jedi were wrong on this account. Even as they built the temple, a small portion of lingering Sith corruption infused its foundations. The hint of dark side influence may have been enough to cloud the judgement of the Jedi, leaving them vulnerable to the manipulations of Darth Sidious."

Isn't that quote from canon though?

A "hint of dark side influence" wouldn't really negate the effects of a powerful light side nexus anyway.

@Neph

That quote just says there was a "linger Sith corruption" that was likened to a "hint" which only was "enough to cloud the judgement of the Jedi". Which implies, since it only did that, the Temple's Light Side vergence was returned.

Plus, that's canon-only. We're referring to the EU here.

The Farmer wins this one.

Originally posted by MythLord
In a duel? Hardly.

Lol, at one point Dooku forces Obi-Wan's lightsaber up into the air so that he can block Anakin's at the same time. Obi-Wan practically trips over his own feet. Dooku displays zero trouble fighting Anakin and Obi-Wan together at the start of the fight, easily separates them and then takes Kenobi down the second he rejoins the fight. It's ironically Obi-Wan's worst performance against someone, uh, I think ever.

Originally posted by MythLord
Not on hand, no. I'll try and find them.

The quote about Kenobi being stronger is in regards to his growth between AotC and LoE. The S6 duel hadn't even been thought up yet.

Originally posted by MythLord
No, not really.

Yes really. Anyone who can one-shot Aryn Leneer, produce lightning enough to burn through a powerful Jedi's chest through his lightsaber defense, kill multiple Jedi with one blast of lightning, floor the ToR Strike Team with lightning and TK, choke out 3 of them while filling the mind of the 4th with visions of doubt, hold a starship in place against the strain of its engines, toss a mountain of rubble around, destroy a squadron of fighters with a scream while buckling his capital ships transparisteel viewport and is vastly more powerful than Satele Shan who was shattering blast doors, grabbing lightsabers and cubing Hex droids.

Originally posted by MythLord
@Neph

That quote just says there was a "linger Sith corruption" that was likened to a "hint" which only was "enough to cloud the judgement of the Jedi". Which implies, since it only did that, the Temple's Light Side vergence was returned.

Plus, that's canon-only. We're referring to the EU here.

It doesn't imply that. At worst it implies that the Jedi made the nexus neutral enough that it wasn't that big a deal but the corruption remained making it a slightly darkside one.

Canon and EU aren't exclusive.

Malgus in a great fight. He'd eventually break through Kenobi's soresu

Why do people talk about Soresu like it's a wall? It's a martial art.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Lol, at one point Dooku forces Obi-Wan's lightsaber up into the air so that he can block Anakin's at the same time. Obi-Wan practically trips over his own feet. Dooku displays zero trouble fighting Anakin and Obi-Wan together at the start of the fight, easily separates them and then takes Kenobi down the second he rejoins the fight. It's ironically Obi-Wan's worst performance against someone, uh, I think ever.

Um, what? I mean, I guess you can look at it that way if you go by movies only, but that'd be just bull. A more detail description of the fight, authorised and co-written by Lucas himself no less, provides a description of how Obi contended fairly well against the Count:

"He threw himself spinning up and away from the two Jedi to land on the situation table, disengaging for a moment to recover his composure-that had been entirely too close-but by the time his boots touched down Kenobi was there to meet him, blade weaving through a defensive velocity so bewilderingly fast that Dooku dared not even try a strike; he threw a feint toward Kenobi's face, then dropped and spun in a reverse ankle-sweep-But not only did Kenobi easily overleap this attack, Dooku nearly lost his own foot to a slash from Skywalker who had again come out of nowhere and now carved through the table so that it collapsed under Dooku's weight and dumped the Sith Lord unceremoniously to the floor. This was not in the plan."

...

"He drove a series of flashing thrusts toward Kenobi's legs to draw the Jedi Master into a flipping overhead leap so that Dooku could burn through his spine from kidneys to shoulder blades-and this image, this plan, was so clear in Dooku's mind that he almost failed to notice that Kenobi met every one of his thrusts without so much as moving his feet, staying perfectly centered, perfectly balanced, blade never moving a millimeter more than was necessary, deflecting without effort, riposting with flickering strikes and stabs swifter than the tongue of a Garollian ghost viper, and when Dooku felt Skywalker regain his feet and stride once more toward his back, he finally registered the source of that blinding defensive velocity Kenobi had used a moment ago, and only then, belatedly, did he understand that Kenobi's Ataro and Shii-Cho had been ploys, as well.

Kenobi had become a master of Soresu."


Originally posted by Nephthys
The quote about Kenobi being stronger is in regards to his growth between AotC and LoE. The S6 duel hadn't even been thought up yet.

Yeah, but that still makes my point accurate. Obi did grow over the course of the war, why that'd magically stop in 20 BBY is beyond me.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes really. Anyone who can one-shot Aryn Leneer, produce lightning enough to burn through a powerful Jedi's chest through his lightsaber defense,
kill multiple Jedi with one blast of lightning,

From what I recall, he didn't one-shot Aryn Leneer with TK, only lightning. And if a tired Kenobi can deflect lightning that Yoda could deflect "far from easily", then I'd say he'd be more than capable of deflecting Malgus' lightning.

And besides, Aryn is hardly as powerful or as durable as Obi-Wan Kenobi.

Originally posted by Nephthys
floor the ToR Strike Team with lightning and TK,

While their guard was down. Utter TOR fodder did the same thing, unless you wish to argue Hiran is now also more powerful than Kenobi.

Originally posted by Nephthys
choke out 3 of them while filling the mind of the 4th with visions of doubt

LOL, game mechanics. If Malgus really is capable of that, why did all of them survive? Why didn't he kill one of them while they were helpless in a choke instead of just chasing a single, ineffectual, filled-with-doubt being around?

Originally posted by Nephthys
hold a starship in place against the strain of its engines, toss a mountain of rubble around, destroy a squadron of fighters with a scream while buckling his capital ships transparisteel viewport

Honestly, Anakin in a state inferior to the one he was on Mustafar has similar/better feats, and Obi seemed to be capable of deflecting those attacks easily enough.

Originally posted by Nephthys
and is vastly more powerful than Satele Shan who was shattering blast doors, grabbing lightsabers and cubing Hex droids.

Based on what is he "vastly" more powerful? From what I recall, Shan rivals Marr, who's canonically superior to Malgus, no? And tutaminis =/= TK, and Shan telekinetically opening two doors is hardly outside Obi's capabilities, and neither is hurling around Hex Droids.

Originally posted by Nephthys
It doesn't imply that. At worst it implies that the Jedi made the nexus neutral enough that it wasn't that big a deal but the corruption remained making it a slightly darkside one.

Canon and EU aren't exclusive.

Um, it says it was only a "hint of the Dark Side" and said that it was only enough to hinder the Jedi's Farsight. That doesn't change that the vergence of the Temple to the Light was returned, and thus the Jedi would be capable of drawing on it.

And in this case they are, since anything post-Rebels is a completely different, contratictory continuity. RotS is, fortunately for me, accepted into both continuities and as such: while it's quote may not apply in Canon, it certainly applies in Legends.

^ MythLord: Are you claiming Dooku didn't force Obi-Wan's Saber up above his head, while simultaneously blocking Anakin?

Honestly I see no reason whatsoever why Dooku couldn't have done that same drop kick he put on Anakin to Obi-Wan instead, in that scenario.

Originally posted by MythLord
Um, what? I mean, I guess you can look at it that way if you go by movies only, but that'd be just bull. A more detail description of the fight, authorised and co-written by Lucas himself no less, provides a description of how Obi contended fairly well against the Count:

"He threw himself spinning up and away from the two Jedi to land on the situation table, disengaging for a moment to recover his composure-that had been entirely too close-but by the time his boots touched down Kenobi was there to meet him, blade weaving through a defensive velocity so bewilderingly fast that Dooku dared not even try a strike; he threw a feint toward Kenobi's face, then dropped and spun in a reverse ankle-sweep-But not only did Kenobi easily overleap this attack, Dooku nearly lost his own foot to a slash from Skywalker who had again come out of nowhere and now carved through the table so that it collapsed under Dooku's weight and dumped the Sith Lord unceremoniously to the floor. This was not in the plan."

...

"He drove a series of flashing thrusts toward Kenobi's legs to draw the Jedi Master into a flipping overhead leap so that Dooku could burn through his spine from kidneys to shoulder blades-and this image, this plan, was so clear in Dooku's mind that he almost failed to notice that Kenobi met every one of his thrusts without so much as moving his feet, staying perfectly centered, perfectly balanced, blade never moving a millimeter more than was necessary, deflecting without effort, riposting with flickering strikes and stabs swifter than the tongue of a Garollian ghost viper, and when Dooku felt Skywalker regain his feet and stride once more toward his back, he finally registered the source of that blinding defensive velocity Kenobi had used a moment ago, and only then, belatedly, did he understand that Kenobi's Ataro and Shii-Cho had been ploys, as well.

Kenobi had become a master of Soresu."

As Thor indicated, it isn't bull. It's literally what happened in the actual movie. You can go and check yourself. Dooku drags Obi-Wan around like a puppy to block Anakin simultaneously. It's pretty pathetic. The RotS's inaccuracies don't change anything. That Lucas read the book and then personally contradicted it changes nothing, he clearly had no problem with the fight being different in the book and the film.

Originally posted by MythLord
Yeah, but that still makes my point accurate. Obi did grow over the course of the war, why that'd magically stop in 20 BBY is beyond me.

Obi-Wan growing over the course of the war doesn't mean that he experienced significant growth between the S6 duel and RotS. If we compare his performance against Dooku it's pretty clear that he didn't improve much at all.

Originally posted by MythLord
From what I recall, he didn't one-shot Aryn Leneer with TK, only lightning. And if a tired Kenobi can deflect lightning that Yoda could deflect "far from easily", then I'd say he'd be more than capable of deflecting Malgus' lightning.

And besides, Aryn is hardly as powerful or as durable as Obi-Wan Kenobi.

Dooku's lightning is far inferior to Malgus', nor is there an indication that he was truly going all out on Obi-Wan. As seen in the fight descriptions, its clear that he chose not to display his best when facing them. Malgus was able to blow through the defenses of a Jedi powerful enough to smash two buildings down on him and still possess enough power that his lightning could burn holes in the mans body while the Jedi was still blocking some of it. And Malgus indicated he could have own the guy in any number of ways with the Force. This before Malgus massively increased in power and had nearly 2 decades of growth. Anyone who can floor Nox and the Wrath with lightning at the same time will have no issues with the likes of Obi-Wan Kenobi.

She is certainly comparable to him. Deceived Malgus is easily a match for Kenobi in power and Leneer was his equal before his mid-duel growth.

Originally posted by MythLord
While their guard was down. Utter TOR fodder did the same thing, unless you wish to argue Hiran is now also more powerful than Kenobi.

There's no indication their guard was down. Though if Malgus is fast enough to floor them twice in a row without them reacting that's still a point in his favor.

Tossing the Strike Team around and flooring them with lightning is hilariously above anything Kenobi could manage. Every Force Users in there is Obi-Wan's clear superior.

Originally posted by MythLord
LOL, game mechanics. If Malgus really is capable of that, why did all of them survive? Why didn't he kill one of them while they were helpless in a choke instead of just chasing a single, ineffectual, filled-with-doubt being around?

Because the remaining one managed to duel him to the point where he couldn't maintain the hold. The effort of holding the 3 protags is already a serious strain, doing so while the remaining one is dueling him would obviously be immensely difficult. It's obvious why he couldn't afford to take the time to finish any of them off.

Why did Dooku not snap Kenobi's neck when Anakin was flying across the room and Kenobi was in his force hold?

Originally posted by MythLord
Honestly, Anakin in a state inferior to the one he was on Mustafar has similar/better feats, and Obi seemed to be capable of deflecting those attacks easily enough.

That's hilariously speculative. You don't know what state Anakin was in on Mustafar other than that he was weakened to Kenobi's level. Also, all the feats I mentioned took place before Malgus experienced a massive growth in power, to the point where he almost casually one-shot someone who was his equal prior. So Malgus can still one-shot Kenobi.

Originally posted by MythLord
Based on what is he "vastly" more powerful? From what I recall, Shan rivals Marr, who's canonically superior to Malgus, no? And tutaminis =/= TK, and Shan telekinetically opening two doors is hardly outside Obi's capabilities, and neither is hurling around Hex Droids.

No, Marr is not superior to Malgus. Not even close. And those feats I mentioned are from a Shan who was already less powerful than Malgus, even before his giant increase in Deceived. Hence him being vastly more powerful than someone able to do those feats. Tutaminis is an expression of power, it's absolutely valid for a comparison. And Shan didn't "open" a door, she shattered it to pieces:

http://static7.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/12/124590/3709814-2219145827-Shann.jpg

Nor did she hurl Hex droids, she crushed them into cubes and blew them apart. The same droids that were highly resistant to damage and even enraged Force Crushes.

Originally posted by MythLord
Um, it says it was only a "hint of the Dark Side" and said that it was only enough to hinder the Jedi's Farsight. That doesn't change that the vergence of the Temple to the Light was returned, and thus the Jedi would be capable of drawing on it.

And in this case they are, since anything post-Rebels is a completely different, contratictory continuity. RotS is, fortunately for me, accepted into both continuities and as such: while it's quote may not apply in Canon, it certainly applies in Legends.

The text doesn't say that the vergence was returned to the light. It doesn't make any sense for there to be a lightside nexus with a hint of darkside. The text says that the Jedi believed they could reverse the corruption and return it to the light. But that they were wrong. So clearly, they couldn't reverse it. They failed.

No, your quote has simply been retconned.

It is implied, IIRC, that no single Sith in the Empire at the time, could bring Malgus down. I might be wrong but I remember reading something like that in my Wrath playthrough.

@Neph

Going through some shit currently, I'll respond later.

No time limit here.

Originally posted by Nephthys
As Thor indicated, it isn't bull. It's literally what happened in the actual movie. You can go and check yourself. Dooku drags Obi-Wan around like a puppy to block Anakin simultaneously. It's pretty pathetic. The RotS's inaccuracies don't change anything. That Lucas read the book and then personally contradicted it changes nothing, he clearly had no problem with the fight being different in the book and the film.

I'm not referring to that bladelock, lol. I'm referring to you stating that's Obi's worst performance against the Count, when the novel goes in detail to say how it isn't.
That bladelock you mentioned was during the time Anakin and Obi-Wan were trying to fool Dooku into a false sense of security, and holding back on purpose, as the novel notes.

So let's not cherry pick, and ignore the context.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Obi-Wan growing over the course of the war doesn't mean that he experienced significant growth between the S6 duel and RotS. If we compare his performance against Dooku it's pretty clear that he didn't improve much at all.

Actually, comparing his duels with Dooku it's clear he did indeed grow, especially when the RotS junior novel opens up the possibility of Obi potentially even countering the Count's TK.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Dooku's lightning is far inferior to Malgus', nor is there an indication that he was truly going all out on Obi-Wan. As seen in the fight descriptions, its clear that he chose not to display his best when facing them. Malgus was able to blow through the defenses of a Jedi powerful enough to smash two buildings down on him and still possess enough power that his lightning could burn holes in the mans body while the Jedi was still blocking some of it. And Malgus indicated he could have own the guy in any number of ways with the Force. This before Malgus massively increased in power and had nearly 2 decades of growth. Anyone who can floor Nox and the Wrath with lightning at the same time will have no issues with the likes of Obi-Wan Kenobi.

I'm willing to bet lightning that has given Yoda noticeable difficulty in deflecting is going to be better than Malgus'.

The buildings the Jedi collapsed were already heavily damaged from the bombardment, so it's not like they have a lot of support to begin with. I also doubt a no-named Jedi is as powerful or as skilled, especially in defense, as Obi-Wan Kenobi, who's defensive velocity shocked someone as fast and skilled as the Count(even if he was tired).

And nothing indicates that Malgus could've killed him in any other way, besides lightning. And by the time he started burning holes through an already injured Zabrak's body, his lightsabers fell from his wrists. Not to mention, despite a continuous barrage of lightning, it took Malgus a while to kill the Jedi:



Originally posted by Nephthys
She is certainly comparable to him. Deceived Malgus is easily a match for Kenobi in power and Leneer was his equal before his mid-duel growth.

Comparable in power? Maybe, though that's debatable. Comparable in durability? Not at all, given how Aryn has coughed blood and been subdued by less kinetic damage than Kenobi has shrugged off.

Originally posted by Nephthys
There's no indication their guard was down. Though if Malgus is fast enough to floor them twice in a row without them reacting that's still a point in his favor.

Usually, they'd have their lightsabers raised or a Force Barrier animation activated to indicate they were protecting themselves. And he didn't floor them, he caught them off guard with lightning then proceeded to TK them before they can recompose.

Not so super-special-awesome as the TOR brigade likes to sell it.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Tossing the Strike Team around and flooring them with lightning is hilariously above anything Kenobi could manage. Every Force Users in there is Obi-Wan's clear superior.

I don't see why Kenobi couldn't hurl four unprepared beings, only two of which are Force sensitive.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Because the remaining one managed to duel him to the point where he couldn't maintain the hold. The effort of holding the 3 protags is already a serious strain, doing so while the remaining one is dueling him would obviously be immensely difficult. It's obvious why he couldn't afford to take the time to finish any of them off.

Why did Dooku not snap Kenobi's neck when Anakin was flying across the room and Kenobi was in his force hold?

He seems to be holding them well enough that he can leap around, and fill another's mind with doubt... yet he didn't just stab them with a lightsaber or really do anything with them.

My point remains, it's just a flashpoint mission's game mechanic to make the game more challenging, just like any fodder suddenly picking up your companion or you and choking you for 10 seconds and then you beat them.

Regarding your Dooku/Obi example: at least Dooku did something. He either accelerates Obi's descent so his neck can break(novel) or collapses a railing onto him. Sure, neither kills him, but that just speaks to insane durability, the Count at least tried something.

If Malgus really could choke them, why couldn't he just do this to the non-Force sensitive?




Granted, the Jedi in this example wasn't expecting the attack, but it's still a Jedi and Malgus is far from his prime. You'd think prime Malgus could do this to a non-Force sensitive...

Part 2:

Originally posted by Nephthys
That's hilariously speculative. You don't know what state Anakin was in on Mustafar other than that he was weakened to Kenobi's level. Also, all the feats I mentioned took place before Malgus experienced a massive growth in power, to the point where he almost casually one-shot someone who was his equal prior. So Malgus can still one-shot Kenobi.

We know he's in a conflicted state, but we also know Annie at this point has experienced a considerable powergrowth since the beginning of the movie and a vast powergrowth since the late seasons of TCW. I find it hilarious that he would be below his padawan/early Knight self that couldn't even beat 3 MagnaGuards without some effort.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No, Marr is not superior to Malgus. Not even close. And those feats I mentioned are from a Shan who was already less powerful than Malgus, even before his giant increase in Deceived. Hence him being vastly more powerful than someone able to do those feats. Tutaminis is an expression of power, it's absolutely valid for a comparison. And Shan didn't "open" a door, she shattered it to pieces:

Nor did she hurl Hex droids, she crushed them into cubes and blew them apart. The same droids that were highly resistant to damage and even enraged Force Crushes.

There's an accolade stating he is better than Malgus, but not that it matters. Her Hex Droid feat happened ten years after the events of Decieved, so that feat is irrelevant.

Regarding crushing the of the door... that also happened after the events of Decieved, and it's not like that's outside Obi's capabilities given how he's canonically and logically ahead of Quinlan Vos who, massively pre-prime, while suffering from amnesia, casually destroyed a large portion of duracrete by accident.


Originally posted by Nephthys
The text doesn't say that the vergence was returned to the light. It doesn't make any sense for there to be a lightside nexus with a hint of darkside. The text says that the Jedi believed they could reverse the corruption and return it to the light. But that they were wrong. So clearly, they couldn't reverse it. They failed.

No, your quote has simply been retconned.

It says that there was only a hint of the Dark Side left, and that hint only hindered the Jedi's farsight. That's literally what the quote says -- only the Jedi's precognition was hindered, so logically they restored the vergence of the Light to pretty much every other field.

In-canon, not In-Legends since it doesn't apply. And if you wish to apply it to Legends, then we must also follow the canon hierarchy of Legends, in which case my quote is G-canon and is thus more valid than your C-canon quote.