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FORCE SABERS ALL OUT

Kas'im

Lol no

He is featless, and slower, and has weaker force feats than Tiin. If he sucks badly enough to lose to trainee Bane, he isn't going to beat a Jedi council member.

I take that back Kas'sim is a master of force shield lol

Originally posted by Lord Stark
http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090428120119/uncyclopedia/images/2/2f/Facepalm_emote_gif.gif

Who knows? They're similarly able warriors.

Originally posted by carthage
Lol no
If you were so certain of an outcome to the point where you would think that the opposite outcome is laughably impossible, then why the **** did you make this thread in the first place? Is it your desire to try and randomly shit on Bane whenever you get the chance?

Originally posted by carthage
He is featless,
You are writing off his skill based on a lack of exposure when his high level of skill is made very obvious. Kas'im is built up as a master of all seven forms of lightsaber combat who defeated his master Na'daz, also noted to be a master of lightsaber combat, and spent the next few decades perfecting and refining every move and maneuver of every form.

And Bane, who spent hours in the archives reading up on the legendary feats of the ancient Sith Lords, was impressed enough with Kas'im's technique to ponder the possibility that Kas'im may have been the greatest duelist who had ever lived up to that point.

Originally posted by carthage
and slower
Kas'im was striking at a speed of ten strikes per second at the opening of his fight with Bane, and after switching to dual blades his speed increases further.

Originally posted by carthage
and has weaker force feats than Tiin.
Withstanding the impact of a force wave that brings down an entire temple impresses me more than throwing a battle droid.

Originally posted by carthage
If he sucks badly enough to lose to trainee Bane, he isn't going to beat a Jedi council member.
Or maybe you just underrate Bane. Bane by this point is less than a week from becoming Dark Lord of the Sith, and already wields a tremendous amount of power.

Bane is less than a week from being the Sith equivalent of Grand Master, so don't argue that Tinn's rank somehow makes him superior to Kas'im.

Sabers: Kas'sim is a reputed master of seven forms, and was an instructor who taught the "best" of future Sith lords during Bane's age. However, given his need for trickery and even when he held the advantage against Bane with Jar kai he still had difficulty. This is a poor reflection on his abilities as a blademaster. Whereas, Tiin was able to spar with Windu, is considered one of the best Swordsmen in the Jedi order, and has moved his saber fast enough to form a shield. Kas'sim's reputed skill was shown to be lackluster when he lost to one of his students even with an advantage, whereas Tiin was able to spar with the 2nd greatest Jedi of his era on 'even' terms. Tiin takes a massive edge in sabers

Force: Kas'sim's showings are limited to making a force shield, force enhanced reflexes (all nexus feats), best control, and that's it really. Whereas Tiin has thrown a droid 400 meters, redirected missiles, and crushed a droid with a massive machine part. Kas'sim's focus as a blademaster is primarily force enhancement, whereas Tiin has better feats across the board mainly in the area of TK. Tiin gets another edge here

Skill: Kas'sim is arguably more skilled, but as mentioned this statement is built on a 3rd person quote from Bane. No edge is given here as Kas'sim hasn't demonstrated any of his supposed mastery with anyone of note

Verdict: Kas'sim's horrid performance against Bane calls into question his ability to contend with a council member like Tiin. Tiin possesses better feats across the board, and even with his lack of dueling feats his match with Windu and accolades suggest a high level of skill. He also possesses superior speed, force abilities, and is generally more well rounded than Kas'sim. Kas'sim's feats relating to his force enhancement is called into question, as he always sparred on nexuses and his ability is further diminished as he struggled against a trainee.

Tiin takes this 10/10

Kas'im.

He has no feats to suggest he was the greatest blademaster of his time apart from a third person quote from Bane. He never defeated anyone of note, never even sparred with anyone with feats apart from Bane, regardless of his supposed "Skill" there is nothing to suggest he is better than Tiin. His sole accolade comes from Bane's opinion and is not backed up by anything at all



Nexus feat. He has no off nexus feats to suggest he is capable of the same speed. Tiin has moved fast enough to form his saber as a shield, moved fast enough to appear to be in three places, and can match Windu's speed. Kas'sim has nothing to prove he is faster.




Except that by Bane's own admission using/learning to implement a force shield is one of the most basic lessons taught . If Kas'sim is a master than he is just a master of that basic ability, as none of his force feats suggest a command of the force at all. Tiin's TK will send him flying, as even that shield feat was done on a nexus that boosted their showings.



Lehon influenced Bane to the point to where he almost fainted like a pussy. His best TK feat off was killing a featless Sith master, breaking crates and tents, and on Lehon he could lift a massive door and crumble a pillar. If there is no discrepancy in the power of due to the fact he was off a nexus to you, then you are just being a raving fanboy. Oh wait you are!

Originally posted by carthage
Sabers: Kas'sim is a reputed master of seven forms, and was an instructor who taught the "best" of future Sith lords during Bane's age. However, given his need for trickery and even when he held the advantage against Bane with Jar kai he still had difficulty. This is a poor reflection on his abilities as a blademaster. Whereas, Tiin was able to spar with Windu, is considered one of the best Swordsmen in the Jedi order, and has moved his saber fast enough to form a shield. Kas'sim's reputed skill was shown to be lackluster when he lost to one of his students even with an advantage, whereas Tiin was able to spar with the 2nd greatest Jedi of his era on 'even' terms. Tiin takes a massive edge in sabers

Force: Kas'sim's showings are limited to making a force shield, force enhanced reflexes (all nexus feats), best control, and that's it really. Whereas Tiin has thrown a droid 400 meters, redirected missiles, and crushed a droid with a massive machine part. Kas'sim's focus as a blademaster is primarily force enhancement, whereas Tiin has better feats across the board mainly in the area of TK. Tiin gets another edge here

Skill: Kas'sim is arguably more skilled, but as mentioned this statement is built on a 3rd person quote from Bane. No edge is given here as Kas'sim hasn't demonstrated any of his supposed mastery with anyone of note

Verdict: Kas'sim's horrid performance against Bane calls into question his ability to contend with a council member like Tiin. Tiin possesses better feats across the board, and even with his lack of dueling feats his match with Windu and accolades suggest a high level of skill. He also possesses superior speed, force abilities, and is generally more well rounded than Kas'sim. Kas'sim's feats relating to his force enhancement is called into question, as he always sparred on nexuses and his ability is further diminished as he struggled against a trainee.

Tiin takes this 10/10

Your entire argument here is based on the fact that Kas'im lost to Bane, and that Tinn sparred with Windu...

Bane by this point already has numerous quotes confirming his immense strength and command of the force. Right before heading of to Lehon Bane was pretty much promoted to the Sith Council, so "trainee" is not exactly an accurate term to describe him, especially when he's only a few days away from becoming the Dark Lord of the Sith. As evidenced by Bane's subsequent ascension to the title of Dark Lord, and the amount of buildup and hype given to Kas'im's capabilities as a duelist, the duel of Lehon was being used as a way to showcase Bane's immense and still growing power rather than showcasing Kas'im to be weak. I have no idea why this is such a difficult notion to get through your head.

Sparring with someone doesn't mean shit. Bane sparred with Kas'im on the rooftop for hours at a time, when Kas'im was still way above Bane in terms of ability. By contrast, Tinn sparred with Windu for only a couple of panels. This does not prove anything about Tinn's ability as a duelist.

Originally posted by carthage
He has no feats to suggest he was the greatest blademaster of his time apart from a third person quote from Bane. He never defeated anyone of note, never even sparred with anyone with fears apart from Bane, regardless of his supposed "Skill" there is nothing to suggest he is better than Tiin. His sole accolade comes from Bane's opinion and is not backed up by anything at all
You mean aside from beating his own master Na'daz, who was a master duelist, before spending the next few decades refining and perfecting every form?

Bane's opinion is not invalid. Bane spent hours upon hours reading up on the feats of the ancient Sith Lords, and was far more impressed with them then he was with the modern Sith. Bane is also very smart by this point even. The fact that somebody as smart and as well educated as Bane ponders the possibility that Kas'im may have been the greatest duelist ever in over six thousand years of lightsaber combat still speaks leaps and bounds for Kas'im's immense skill whether you want it to or not.



Originally posted by carthage
Nexus feat. He has no off nexus feats to suggest he is capable of the same speed. Tiin has moved fast enough to form his saber as a shield, moved fast enough to appear to be in three places, and can match Windu's speed. Kas'sim has nothing to prove he is faster.
Bane's demonstrations of speed were pretty much the exact same on Korriban and Lehon, despite how much stronger in the Dark Side Lehon was. Evidently Lehon's strength in the Dark Side was not affecting their speed in any tangible way.

And WTF do you mean Tinn matched Windu's speed? Do you mean in a sparring match where they weren't going all out? And even if that were the case, then what the **** happened in the Chancellor's office on Coruscant?!!



Originally posted by carthage
Except that by Bane's own admission using/learning to implement a force shield is one of the most basic lessons taught . If Kas'sim is a master than he is just a master of that basic ability, as none of his force feats suggest a command of the force at all. Tiin's TK will send him flying, as even that shield feat was done on a nexus that boosted their showings.
Just because it is a very common ability doesn't mean it cannot be taken to higher levels of power and mastery.

Unless Tinn can generate a powerful enough force attack to destroy a temple, then he is not "sending Kas'im flying."


Originally posted by carthage
Lehon influenced Bane to the point to where he almost fainted like a pussy. His best TK feat off was killing a featless Sith master, breaking crates and tents, and on Lehon he could lift a massive door and crumble a pillar. If there is no discrepancy in the power of due to the fact he was off a nexus to you,
Lehon had absolutely no impact on his speed, so it likely didn't have as large an impact on his other abilities as you seem to be intent on claiming. The Darth Bane trilogy has numerous quotes where the characters gain power from external sources, find me one quote that mentions a character gaining power from just being on a nexus and I might take you seriously.


Originally posted by carthage
then you are just being a raving fanboy. Oh wait you are!
Normally I don't like calling bias and attacking somebody's credibility rather then their arguments, but given that you have called bias first after months of spewing biased bullshit out of your mouth, I feel it is only appropriate to respond in kind...

You're irrational hatred for Bane, Revan, and Vitiate causes you to write them off as weak despite an orgy of quotes placing them among the most powerful beings in the Galaxy, a good number of these quotes not being from an in universe point of view. The fact that you blatantly ignore and refuse to acknowledge these quotes due to your irrational hatred for these characters speaks for immense amounts of bias, ignorance, and stupidity.

It is time for you to pull your head out of your ass and stop being a complete and utter retard!

That's all cute and everything, but Kas'sim has no relevant feats or accolades apart from that sole quote that Bane gave which has no bearing as Kas'sim didn't fight anyone other than Bane.



So he was still a trainee by a few days, thanks for proving me right



And Kas'sim knowingly held back from Trainee Bane, had a tremendous advantage, was more skilled and still lost to a Bane whose best feat was breaking crates and tents. So much for all that immense skill, huh? Kas'sim pulled out all of the stops and still lost to trainee Bane. Tiin at least proved he could hold his own, and showcased numerous other feats that Kas'sim lacks. Try again




His master has ZERO feats, and there is no evidence of skill mastery in any fight he did. He still got shitcanned by a trainee Bane in spite of all of that supposed mastery. If he was so skilled why didn't he do better, rely on trickery, and ultimately die to a student. Lol.



You mean if Tiin can use the latent force powers of a nexus (which almost caused him to faint) to do his dirty work instead of his raw skill to beat a weak opponent?



All of Bane's speed feats are either of him boosted in some way by orbalisks or a nexus. Try again. Bane could barely move fast enough to catch slow drain drops and block them, he was slower and weaker in DOE. He couldn't duplicate the same feats he did then. If it affected Bane i,e made him faster but he can't replicate the same effect elsewhere, chances are the nexus aided him unless otherwise stated.



Practicing with the 2nd greatest Jedi >>> Beating a weak Sith school teacher



Its simple observation from the fact Bane was slower, weaker, and altogether never replicated any of his feats from when he had the Orbalisks or was younger in POD. He even said "Age had robbed him of his power", not that he was very skilled or good to begin with. He deflected slow moving drain drops when he was old and weak, and ran kilometers in no time at all on Korriban nexus. If you can't see the discrepancy fanboy, then concede.

And for your last point:

http://cdn.womensunitedonline.com/gallery/james_van_der_beek_cry.jpg

Irrelevant nonsense. Either post feats or gtfo. Kas'sim's implied mastery means nothing.



He was still a trainee and you admitted it



Sure it did Bane was weak as hell without any special means to mod his force abilities. Like i said compare breaking boxes and breaking tents to lifting a rock and breaking a pillar, Bane even felt the nexus when his weak bald ass almost fainted.



Bane lost to a featless Sirrak and would've died to Raskta had he not had his precious armor on. Please provide me relevant dueling feats for Kas'sim that put him on Tiin's ability to hold his own against Windu (the 2nd greatest Jedi of his era)



His speed didn't increase, and his rain feat isn't as impressive as Tiin appearing in three places at once/deflecting three blaster bolt volleys. Try again. Not only is he slower than Tiin he is weaker, Tiin has smashed a droids head. Bane was slower and weaker by his own admission. Stop backpedaling.



It doesn't mean anything as its an inferior feat because all of his other feats are when he was boosted as per usual lol. There is no way to gauge his speed, other than to assume he's slower by virtue of his own words, and because of the fact all of his other speed feats occur under the dubious circumstance of being nexus feats. Zannah's observations are meaningless, as he also held back and there is no quantifiable speed feat to compare them too in his past





Which was why he got his ass handed to him in a duel with his less skilled apprentice who trips over graves


Tiin wins

trololololol.

Its only trolling if Emperor cries and breaks his Bane action figures

So it has been decided, Saesee wins.

Originally posted by carthage
Irrelevant nonsense. Either post feats or gtfo. Kas'sim's implied mastery means nothing.
here's an idea... how about you post a relevant dueling feat for Tinn, because to my knowledge he has never been in a serious duel aside from when he got blitzed by Palpatine.


Originally posted by carthage
He was still a trainee and you admitted it
I never admitted he was a trainee. I said he wasn't the Dark Lord yet. He had still graduated from the academy and had been promoted to the Sith Council prior to this fight.


Originally posted by carthage
Sure it did Bane was weak as hell without any special means to mod his force abilities. Like i said compare breaking boxes and breaking tents to lifting a rock and breaking a pillar, Bane even felt the nexus when his weak bald ass almost fainted.
There is nothing that proves that cutting a wave of destruction through the campsite was the limit of his abilities, especially when he did it that casually. That rock he hurled was enchanted to be invisible and immovable so it's far more impressive than you give it credit for.

You calling Bane weak pretty much contradicts canon when there are a bunch of quotes to the contrary.

As a side note I love how that was the one part of my last post that you failed to respond to. It really proves your bias, ignorance, disregard for canon statements, inability to grasp simple concepts, and your own cowardice when faced with a point/insult/accusation you can not effectively refute or counter.


Originally posted by carthage
Bane lost to a featless Sirrak and would've died to Raskta had he not had his precious armor on. Please provide me relevant dueling feats for Kas'sim that put him on Tiin's ability to hold his own against Windu (the 2nd greatest Jedi of his era)
Bane kicked Sirrak's ass first of all. Second of all, Bane didn't defend himself against Lsu's attacks because he didn't need to, not because he wasn't capable of it. Even then Bane managed to outmaneuver Lsu and throw her to the ground through pure skill.



Originally posted by carthage
His speed didn't increase, and his rain feat isn't as impressive as Tiin appearing in three places at once/deflecting three blaster bolt volleys. Try again. Not only is he slower than Tiin he is weaker, Tiin has smashed a droids head. Bane was slower and weaker by his own admission. Stop backpedaling.
Bane was ever so slightly slower than his speed peak, but evidence indicates that he was faster than he was in POD and ROT. This obviously means that Bane's speed peak was off page between ROT and DOE. Is that such a difficult concept for you to grasp.

****ing clones have smashed battle droids heads, it's not that impressive. Bane on the other hand tore through a durasteel door while drugged.


Originally posted by carthage
Which was why he got his ass handed to him in a duel with his less skilled apprentice who trips over graves
I'm not sure what the hell kinda drugs you are on, but Bane ****ing wrecked her in the dueling portion of their fight and only lost when she actively drew from a Nexus to play an unblockable trump card.

Originally posted by carthage
Its only trolling if Emperor cries and breaks his Bane action figures
I don't even collect action figures. And it is increasingly obvious by this point that you are either a complete troll, or a complete and utter dumbass. Either way you are a sad sack of shit.

sometimes it's really hard to resist calling on your idiocy carthage. emperor presents facts, evidence and quotes yet you remain as stubborn as a mule, Bane is a much better duelist/force user than the ENTIRE team that was sent against Sidious(excluding Mace because Vaapad) Saesee tiin is powerful i'll give you that but he is MILES/KILOMETERS ****ing DECADES away from ever being on Bane's level. So please stop making Biased filled assumptions or decisions about characters you dislike, just to 'troll' people, its not funny, its not pushing anyones buttons, its simply foolish and childish so please grow up, we all have to.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
sometimes it's really hard to resist calling on your idiocy carthage. emperor presents facts, evidence and quotes yet you remain as stubborn as mule, Bane is a much better duelist/force user than the ENTIRE team that was sent against Sidious(excluding Mace because Vaapad) Saesee tiin is powerful i'll give you that but he is MILES/KILOMETERS ****ing DECADES away from ever being on Bane's level. So please stop making Biased filled assumptions about characters you dislike, its not funny, its not pushing anyones buttons, its simply foolish and childish so please grow up, we all have to.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^TRUTH^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I never denied they were powerful, dumbass. Vitiate is the only one out of the three in question that is virtually worthless without prep, nexus, etc. Bane is only the weakest out of the usual sith mentions.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
sometimes it's really hard to resist calling on your idiocy carthage. emperor presents facts, evidence and quotes yet you remain as stubborn as a mule, Bane is a much better duelist/force user than the ENTIRE team that was sent against Sidious(excluding Mace because Vaapad) Saesee tiin is powerful i'll give you that but he is MILES/KILOMETERS ****ing DECADES away from ever being on Bane's level. So please stop making Biased filled assumptions or decisions about characters you dislike, just to 'troll' people, its not funny, its not pushing anyones buttons, its simply foolish and childish so please grow up, we all have to.

I've refuted all of his claims, and he hasn't bothered to present any feats for Kas'sim that put him on par with Tiin. Please try to rely on feats as opposed to stupid aimless quotes from the back of the Bane trilogy books that have no bearing on what he actually did in the books.

Once again either present feats for Kas'sim that make him superior to Tiin's feats or go cry with each other.

Originally posted by carthage
I never denied they were powerful, dumbass.
That is practically all you do!!!!!

You constantly berate them as "weak" and "shit."

Originally posted by carthage
I've refuted all of his claims, and he hasn't bothered to present any feats for Kas'sim that put him on par with Tiin. Please try to rely on feats as opposed to stupid aimless quotes from the back of the Bane trilogy books that have no bearing on what he actually did in the books.

Once again either present feats for Kas'sim that make him superior to Tiin's feats or go cry with each other.
here's an idea... why don't you provide a valid dueling feat for Tinn if you're so hung up on them.

Please provide the relevant feats for Kas'sim you've keep avoiding, refute my points, or concede.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
here's an idea... why don't you provide a valid dueling feat for Tinn if you're so hung up on them.

He fought Windu in a sparring match which is a better feat than anything Sith school teacher Kas'sim dying to a less skilled trainee.

Originally posted by carthage
Please provide the relevant feats for Kas'sim you've keep avoiding, refute my points, or concede.
I have provided logic and indicators of Kas'im's skill, while you have given me nothing indicating Saesee's level of ability.

And I refuted all of your points with logic while you spouted the same mindless drivel and have still not responded to my latest points.

Originally posted by carthage
He fought Windu in a sparring match which is a better feat than anything Sith school teacher Kas'sim dying to a less skilled trainee.
Sparring matches are not feats.

So did Vos, but he still got shitstomped by a duelist below Windu's caliber.

Bad example Vos got regularly owned by just about everything, kind of like when Bane got his ass kicked by a bunch of random soldiers, Cognus, and Sirrak.

Actually, it's a perfect example.

Except Tiin was never beaten by random fighters like baldy.

Kas'im shits on his neck.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Kas'im shits on his neck.

Are you into scat?

Originally posted by carthage
He fought Windu in a sparring match which is a better feat than anything Sith school teacher Kas'sim dying to a less skilled trainee.

Well it would seem my not getting into arguments rule will have to be broken. How is a mock duel where they don't even aim to kill compare to actually fighting someone to the death? a practice duel is not a feat or accolade i'll give you the speed and TK points that you've made but a mock duel is nothing compared to the real thing. you say that you want 'proof' Emperor has given you all those things yet you refuse to acknowledge them. by claiming 'emperors a fanboy' or 'he was on a nexus' the fact of the Matter is that people Like Raskta Lsu, Darth Zannah, Kas'im are all much better dueling feats than a sparring match with Mace. Hell I could name a bunch of PT jedi that are stronger than Saesee Tiin.

Shaak Ti.
Adi Gallia.
Depa Billaba.
Asajj Ventress.
Savage Opress
Darth Maul. all of these people have a much better dueling feats and accolades than Saesee tiin and those duels are NOT sparring matches. Please just stop trying to say that Saesee tiin is stronger than Bane or Kas'im because no one else agrees with you nor do they find your feigned ignorance and innocence 'amusing'

Originally posted by carthage
Are you into scat?

If I was I'd enjoy reading your posts a hell of a lot more. <3

Because it still speaks volumes in terms of skill to engage someone in combat in a training session especially of Mace's caliber. Kas'sim's duel with Bane prove he is shit because for all of his purported skilled he went out screaming like a ***** when he lost to a trainee

I never said it was an accolade, there are a few sources calling Tiin one of the best the order produced. Sparring and matching blades with Windu is confirmation of this fact, there are non independent sources and or feats confirming Kas'sim's skill outside of a third person quote. Try again.



I made no direct comparison to Bane, lol. Nor did I ever deny there are other PT swordsmen who are better than Tiin. However, the difference in the fact lies that those swordsmen have feats that make them better based on analysis. Kas'sim has none and Bane's feats are questionable as most of them if not all are when he is boosted. Nothing proves Bane is better than Tiin, he knows more force abilities but he's never beaten anyone without the aid of a nexus, armor, or an amp of some kind.

Originally posted by Nephthys
If I was I'd enjoy reading your posts a hell of a lot more. <3

Your pain makes this all the sweeter.

Originally posted by carthage
Because it still speaks volumes in terms of skill to engage someone in combat in a training session especially of Mace's caliber.

No it doesn't.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No it doesn't.

It does when your opponent has no dueling feats apart from getting trashed by a trainee

Not when your only real dueling feat is getting blitzed like a chump.

Originally posted by carthage
Bad example Vos got regularly owned by just about everything, kind of like when Bane got his ass kicked by a bunch of random soldiers, Cognus, and Sirrak.

Bane kicked Sirrak's ass, not the other way around.

Cognus and her strike team had prep, and they completely ambushed him. Which shouldn't be used to lowball Bane seeing as Dooku got beaten by drunken pirates, and I think we can all agree that Dooku>Tinn.

Vos not being up to par with his sparring partner is not an isolated incident either.

Kas'im sparred with Bane for hours at a time, but it is still noted that Bane had a long way to go before he could beat him.

Zannah sparred with Bane when she first got her lightsaber, but Bane was waaaaaaaay above her dueling capabilities by this point.

Ben sparred with Luke... and let's not kid ourselves here, Luke would easily curbstomp Ben in a serious fight.


A sparring match is not proof that two combatants are on the same level, as it is not a serious all out fight, and the combatants hold back for the sake of not hurting each other.

Lol no Bane got trashed the first time, and only won the second time due to PIS and Karpashyn's generic "he discovered his true power" nonsense. He got beat by all of those assassins because he was slower and weaker.



But beating a featless "Blademaster" who lost to a trainee, i,e the person who was teaching is? Lol.

Originally posted by carthage
Lol no Bane got trashed the first time, and only won the second time due to PIS and Karpashyn's generic "he discovered his true power" nonsense. He got beat by all of those assassins because he was slower and weaker.
Bane got trashed the first time because he lost touch with the Dark Side temporarily. When he regains his connection and hardcore trains he comes back and demolishes Sirak.


Originally posted by carthage
But beating a featless "Blademaster" who lost to a trainee, i,e the person who was teaching is? Lol.
Bane was no longer and apprentice, he had been promoted to the council by that point.