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Movies only. Both universes for Star Trek count. Which universe is superior in terms of intelligence, power, and weaponry.

Red matter FTW

Intelligence, Power and weaponry all go to Star Trek.

Awesomeness goes to Star Wars

Edit: Actually, if we're only counting movies, Star Wars wins Power and Weaponry

Originally posted by Firefly218
Intelligence, Power and weaponry all go to Star Trek.

Awesomeness goes to Star Wars

Edit: Actually, if we're only counting movies, Star Wars wins Power and Weaponry Based on ?

Originally posted by quanchi112
Based on ?

The deathstar, in terms of destructive capability, is stronger than any weapon in the Star Trek movies thus far.

And the awesomeness part is just my opinion

Originally posted by Firefly218
The deathstar, in terms of destructive capability, is stronger than any weapon in the Star Trek movies thus far.

And the awesomeness part is just my opinion How is stronger than red matter ?

The Genesis device is the most powerful weapon shown from either film series. The Death Star/Red Matter destroyed a planet, Genesis destroyed a whole nebula.

The deathstar can be better harnessed and manipulated as a weapon than black holes can. Black holes are unpredictable and hard to weaponize. Also, both black holes and the deathstar have planet busting capability. It's just that the deathstar is the better and easier to use weapon offensively

Originally posted by playa1258
The Genesis device is the most powerful weapon shown from either film series. The Death Star/Red Matter destroyed a planet, Genesis destroyed a whole nebula.

This is nu Trek we're talking about. Otherwise I would agree

Originally posted by Firefly218
The deathstar can be better harnessed and manipulated as a weapon than black holes can. Black holes are unpredictable and hard to weaponize. Also, both black holes and the deathstar have planet busting capability. It's just that the deathstar is the better and easier to use weapon offensively

I agree with this and the Death Star is a mobile battle station on top of its planet busting ability.

Originally posted by Firefly218
The deathstar can be better harnessed and manipulated as a weapon than black holes can. Black holes are unpredictable and hard to weaponize. Also, both black holes and the deathstar have planet busting capability. It's just that the deathstar is the better and easier to use weapon offensively

Red Matter can be easily weaponized. What happen to the Death Star if a small fast ship (or even a cloaked one) deployed some right in its vicinity.

Star Trek is scary with the tech they have. They just don't use it very good a lot the time.

Originally posted by Robtard
Red Matter can be easily weaponized. What happen to the Death Star if a small fast ship (or even a cloaked one) deployed some right in its vicinity.


or just allowed themselves to be taken by tractor beam. the empire is quite stupid. for example, the whole story would have come to an abrupt end if they didn't:

Soldier 2: Hold your fire, there's no lifeforms aboard.
Terry: Hold your fire? What, are we paying by the laser now?
Soldier 2: You don't do the budget Terry, I do

Originally posted by Robtard
Red Matter can be easily weaponized. What happen to the Death Star if a small fast ship (or even a cloaked one) deployed some right in its vicinity.
The ship would definitely be destroyed in the process
Originally posted by Firefly218
The deathstar can be better harnessed and manipulated as a weapon than black holes can.
Using red matter would be like Indiana Jones using a nuclear bomb to blow open a vault.

Originally posted by Firefly218
The ship would definitely be destroyed in the process

Using red matter would be like Indiana Jones using a nuclear bomb to blow open a vault.

Are you saying the Death Star would definitely destroy the ship before it could deploy the Red Matter?

The Death Star is a pretty big vault. So a Red Matter attack is sensible.

Originally posted by Firefly218
The deathstar can be better harnessed and manipulated as a weapon than black holes can. Black holes are unpredictable and hard to weaponize. Also, both black holes and the deathstar have planet busting capability. It's just that the deathstar is the better and easier to use weapon offensively Are you sure about this ?

Originally posted by Robtard
Are you saying the Death Star would definitely destroy the ship before it could deploy the Red Matter?

The Death Star is a pretty big vault. So a Red Matter attack is sensible.

No, the red matter would destroy the ship along with the deathstar. Because red matter is an unpredictable and uncontrollable.

Originally posted by Firefly218
No, the red matter would destroy the ship along with the deathstar. Because red matter is an unpredictable and uncontrollable.

Star Trek ships have crazy shields that can withstand a black hole though as seen. The small ship could also jump to warp and GTFO in time.

Red Matter is fairly controllable and predictable. An amount is released from its container and a black hole is created there for a length of time. Not the safest weapon, granted. But it's not as wild and craxy as you seem to think.

Originally posted by Robtard
Star Trek ships have crazy shields that can withstand a black hole though as seen. The small ship could also jump to warp and GTFO in time.

Red Matter is fairly controllable and predictable. An amount is released from its container and a black hole is created there for a length of time. Not the safest weapon, granted. But it's not as wild and craxy as you seem to think. Craxy ? Rage typo.

Star Trek simply because of the Q Continuum. They would wipe out anyone and anything from Star Wars.

Originally posted by Kotor3
Star Trek simply because of the Q Continuum. They would wipe out anyone and anything from Star Wars.

...at the casual snap of a finger, no less.

oh well...someone pulled the Q card.

/thread

Originally posted by Kotor3
Star Trek simply because of the Q Continuum. They would wipe out anyone and anything from Star Wars. Did the Q appear in a movie ?

Originally posted by quanchi112
Craxy ? Rage typo.

"Irony"

Originally posted by Robtard
"Irony" Since I taught you what the word means you can't stop using it. Irony doesn't apply here. Much to learn you still have.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Since I taught you what the word means you can't stop using it. Irony doesn't apply here. Much to learn you still have.

"irony"

Originally posted by Robtard
"irony" The brick wall.

Originally posted by quanchi112
The brick wall.

"irony"

Originally posted by Robtard
"irony" Stick to the topic. Quit repeating yourself in trollish fashion.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Did the Q appear in a movie ?

Good question. I don't remember. I have to check. If not I guess my comment is invalid.

UGH! I didn't expect this debate to crop up here... Normally Spacebattles and SV are the places to go for these kinds of debates for me...

Hmm, How can I put this....

Intelligence

In terms of intelligence, I think it depends on a few things, if your talking about competence, well, overall, we have more to draw on from the ST side in an absolute sense. 6 major series and numerous movies... ST has had far more screen time. If going by pure NuTrek standards though, I think much of their success has come down to sheer luck, and, with the exemption of Spock and Spock Prime, there hasn't been much in terms of raw strategic or military planning.

SW, while it certainly has a more militaristic, war driven scenario, and had it's fair share of strategic competence/incompetence, much of the military planning was badly flawed. Hoth and Endor showed 2 sides to the Empire in particular, Hoth was a brilliant play, even though the Imps had all the cards. Meanwile, Endor turned out to be a royal flop, as the Emperor underestimated the Rebels and the Ewoks tremendously.

Overall, I can give the ST side more competency per person, while I cannot give them overall competence because of the sheer size difference between the two. Star Wars has an entire galaxy to draw upon, whereas, unless we include the Delta and Gamma Quadrants, which are primarily Borg and Dominion, SW simply has the huge numbers, and not all of them can be foolish.

**************************************************


Power (note: clarification? I am going to assume this was meant to mean things like industry, development and such. Please correct me if you mean things like generator output or something else.)

Power is a different horse. As I said above, the SW side is simply too much to handle, their industrial base is ginormous, compared to the rather fractured Alpha and Beta Quadrant factions. Collaboration between these forces is often difficult, and, the one time we ever see any truly grandiose collaboration was the Dominion War, and even then, only a few major powers were involved. The Galactic Empire at it's peak, however, was able to produce fleets hundreds of thousands strong, and 2 Death Stars in a very short amount of time. The industrial base, resource base, production base and lifeform resources is simply too immense to deal with.

**************************************************


Weaponry

This may be the crux, as it seems to be what many are openly debating right now. Now, Standard armaments I believe fall to the pen of Star Wars. They are fast, powerful, and there are simply more of them, wether it be per ship, or in terms of fleet sizes.

However, There are many exotic, and exceedingly rare technologies, especially by those crafty Feddies, many of which are easily comparable to some of the best Superweapons in SW Lore. Hell, the most fearsome weapon in the SW Arsenal, the Sun Crusher (yes, EU, I know) can be replicated by ST with the right tools, parts, and circumstances.

That being said, they NOT part of the ST common arsenal. Red matter is incredibly rare, and from what Spock described, exceedingly dangerous and difficult to weaponise. Hell, it wasn't intended to BE a weapon originally. Many of Star Trek's exotic weapons are like this, the genesis Device for example, was a unique device, it was never again used, and the data for it is gone. *Shrugs*.

So, Standard armaments ala like the Dominion War sees the SW Side to winning to superior numbers and firepower, whereas if it came to a Superweapons en-masse, the ST Wins for the same reason.

Also, the presence of Q tips a Universe vs Universe fight horribly in Trek's favour. Just saying.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Stick to the topic. Quit repeating yourself in trollish fashion.

"irony"

Originally posted by Robtard
"irony" Oh d-e-a-r.

I guess no Q in movies yet. So he is out.

Originally posted by Kotor3
I guess no Q in movies yet. So he is out.

Kirk/Picard Trek stomps

NuTrek loses with the exception of Red Matter

Originally posted by Kotor3
I guess no Q in movies yet. So he is out.

Even if he was in a film, it would be silly to include him for the obvious.

Originally posted by BruceSkywalker
Kirk/Picard Trek stomps.

Depends on the context really.

If we are pitting universe vs universe under standard rules, then no. The SW Universe unconstrained is simply too big to handle. With the exception of the Q Continuum.

If it's faction vs faction, then it will depend very heaviliy on what factions are involved. Peak Empire, Republic during CW, or any large faction after the GCW is going to be immense compared to almost all of the ST factions. The only ones with comparable size and industrial bases would be peak Dominion, and peak Borg.

Darkstorm Zero is 100% correct

I think the Borg could defeat the Empire.

Originally posted by Firefly218
Darkstorm Zero is 100% correct Opinions vary.

Originally posted by playa1258
I think the Borg could defeat the Empire.

defeat? no no. they would assimilate the empire and add their biological and technological distinctiveness to their own.

Originally posted by playa1258
I think the Borg could defeat the Empire.

This is true under specific circumstances. They would need to assimilate SW tech very very quickly though, Weapons, Armor, Shields, and Hyperdrive tech are all technologies they would need to assimilate in order to operate on par, and it is well within their means to do this, assuming they don't get plowed out in the first volleys.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Opinions vary.

I know they do, believe me. But then, that's what makes a debate, a debate.

Originally posted by focus4chumps
defeat? no no. they would assimilate the empire and add their biological and technological distinctiveness to their own.

You know, that statement reminds me of a time when I saw a Borg vs Unicron debate, and I said that it was possible, barely, that they could assimilate a purely machine version of Unicron.

The someone wrote a line... "I am Unicron of Borg. Resistance is futile."

I lol'd

with teleportation, the borg win IMO.

beam a few drones into the deathstar, assimilation ensues, same as in first contact. then it's borg + deathstar.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
This is true under specific circumstances. They would need to assimilate SW tech very very quickly though, Weapons, Armor, Shields, and Hyperdrive tech are all technologies they would need to assimilate in order to operate on par, and it is well within their means to do this, assuming they don't get plowed out in the first volleys.

The Borg are very vast. They can spare lots in order to analyse and adapt. Though not sure that some of their tech isn't already on par or beyond.

Originally posted by focus4chumps
with teleportation, the borg win IMO.

beam a few drones into the deathstar, assimilation ensues, same as in first contact. then it's borg + deathstar.

The problem with the transporter spam that many espouse in such matches is that transporters are INCREDIBLY easy to jam. Any sort of jamming, deflector shields, magnetic fields, particle shields, actual countermeasures can screw up a beaming lock-in, which it has done so throughout the franchise. The borg are not immune to this phenomena either, and the Imps have no reason to drop their shields and jamming...

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
This is true under specific circumstances. They would need to assimilate SW tech very very quickly though, Weapons, Armor, Shields, and Hyperdrive tech are all technologies they would need to assimilate in order to operate on par, and it is well within their means to do this, assuming they don't get plowed out in the first volleys.



I know they do, believe me. But then, that's what makes a debate, a debate. Yeah, the right side (me) and the wrong side (the other guys).

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
The problem with the transporter spam that many espouse in such matches is that transporters are INCREDIBLY easy to jam. Any sort of jamming, deflector shields, magnetic fields, particle shields, actual countermeasures an screw up a beaming lock-in, which it has done so throughout the franchise. The borg are not immune to this phenomena either, and the Imps have no reason to drop their shields and jamming...

yes, but the borg showed beaming abilities far superior to that of the federation, showing none of it's weaknesses. thats part of what made them so menacing was the ability to beam in undetected and unhindered.

You know Star Trek could always teleport bombs into enemy ships. PIS this is not done more often.

Originally posted by playa1258
You know Star Trek could always teleport bombs into enemy ships. PIS this is not done more often.

as DSZ pointed out, federation beaming technology had it's limitations, one prominent one being that they could not beam through shields. if SW shields are anything like ST shields, that would hinder them.

the borg however have no such problem with their beaming tech.

Originally posted by Robtard
The Borg are very vast. They can spare lots in order to analyise and adapt. Though not sure that some of their tech isn't already on par or beyond.

They are big, but not GE or New Republic big. They aren't going to win a slugfest with either of them.

Hmm, Their transwarp tech (the only way they can keep up with hyperdrives) is dependant on hubs, fixed locations. their disrupters are quite powerful, but they don't deploy them in anywhere near the numbers of the SW factions. As for shielding, and their adaption, that's a different thing. If their ships can survive long enough to get any sort of adaption method from the plasma blaster type used in SW weapons, which aren't frequency based like most ST weapons, then they can adapt to one of the primary weapon types in SW. But the thing about SW Capital Ships is that their weapons are incredibly varied. Tibanna gas powered blaster weapons are only but one weapon type, there are also weapons such as missiles, torpedoes, ion cannons, railguns, plasma launchers, and a whole mess of others...

Originally posted by focus4chumps
yes, but the borg showed beaming abilities far superior to that of the federation, showing none of it's weaknesses. thats part of what made them so menacing was the ability to beam in undetected and unhindered.

Eh, from what I recall of the series and the movies, the Borg never beamed directly through active shields. Lets use First Contact as an example. Picard acknowledges that their shields were down when they destroyed the Borg Sphere, and yes, the Borg have been known o evade sensor detection while doing this somehow.

The only exeption was One, because he was made using 29th century tech... That's a Deus EX Machina.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Eh, from what I recall of the series and the movies, the Borg never beamed directly through active shields. Lets use First Contact as an example. Picard acknowledges that their shields were down when they destroyed the Borg Sphere, and yes, the Borg have been known o evade sensor detection while doing this somehow.

hmmm just checked the script and you are right. the temporal wake disabled the enterprises shields in the time travel scene.

but yes, they did beam through shields quite handily in the show.

Originally posted by focus4chumps
hmmm just checked the script and you are right. the temporal wake disabled the enterprises shields in the time travel scene.

but yes, they did beam through shields quite handily in the show.

Hmm, I don't recall that... Argh! That means I have to watch every single Borg related episode from NG and VOY! Damn you Focus!!!

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
They are big, but not GE or New Republic big. They aren't going to win a slugfest with either of them.

Hmm, Their transwarp tech (the only way they can keep up with hyperdrives) is dependant on hubs, fixed locations. their disrupters are quite powerful, but they don't deploy them in anywhere near the numbers of the SW factions. As for shielding, and their adaption, that's a different thing. If their ships can survive long enough to get any sort of adaption method from the plasma blaster type used in SW weapons, which aren't frequency based like most ST weapons, then they can adapt to one of the primary weapon types in SW. But the thing about SW Capital Ships is that their weapons are incredibly varied. Tibanna gas powered blaster weapons are only but one weapon type, there are also weapons such as missiles, torpedoes, ion cannons, railguns, plasma launchers, and a whole mess of others...

No, they're not. But after they adapt, the greater numbers of SW will mean little, if anything, it could potentially mean more Borg drones and modified ships for the Borg.

Hyperdrives are vastly superior in getting from Point A to Point B, no doubt. But in combat, the SW ships can fight in hyperdrive (iirc), ST ships (including Borg) can. That is one huge advantage in combat.

It's not even "surviving", they could destroy cube after cube, in time, these attacks would allow the Borg as a collective to adapt. That's part of how Borg adaptation works. You harm them, they take it, analyze it and build a counter. I doubt you'd argue that the vast majority of the Borg would die before they started to adapt.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Hmm, I don't recall that... Argh! That means I have to watch every single Borg related episode from NG and VOY! Damn you Focus!!!

a blessing in disguise!

but yeah they would just beam in and out as they pleased, further frustrating the crew by ignoring them as they went about their enterprise-hacking and data-collecting.

almost forgot: adaptive borg shields (on ship and on person) are another advantage which put them over the empire imo

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Hmm, I don't recall that... Argh! That means I have to watch every single Borg related episode from NG and VOY! Damn you Focus!!!

Ep "Q Who" has the Borg stealth transport a Drone right into engineering while the Enterprises shields were up.

Edit: Also a good example of ST ships fighting while at warp speeds, as the Enterprise and Cube exchange attacks when the Enterprise tries to flee.

Originally posted by Robtard
No, they're not. But after they adapt, the greater numbers of SW will mean little, if anything, it could potentially mean more Borg drones and modified ships for the Borg.

Hyperdrives are vastly superior in getting from Point A to Point B, no doubt. But in combat, the SW ships can fight in hyperdrive (iirc), ST ships (including Borg) can. That is one huge advantage in combat.

It's not even "surviving", they could destroy cube after cube, in time, these attacks would allow the Borg as a collective to adapt. That's part of how Borg adaptation works. You harm them, they take it, analyze it and build a counter. I doubt you'd argue that the vast majority of the Borg would die before they started to adapt.

Well, there are a few things...

Firstly, it depends greatly on how adaptable they are to SW Weapons. Now, I'm not one of those fools who says it is an impossibility because of how differently the tech works, they "Could" potentially adapt at some point.

Second, I don't think their warp fighting would matter all that much when the opponent literally can move thousands of times faster then they can. The only way to get at them then is to try and predict where they will pop up, and then, if they figure out about the gravity Well weakness in Hyperdrive travel, then it's possible to exploit that.

Third, Well, again, that depends on how quickly the Borg Ships get blown away. If it turns out to be a OHKO as per a few Warsies using the ICS Calcs, then yeah, I can say that the GE would literally wipe out the Cubes before they could transmit any adaption algorithms to the rest of the collective. Seeing as how I am more reasonable than many, I would say that they could transmit the algorithm by piecemeal, but that is going to take a while, especially since blasters aren't frequency transmission type weapons.

Originally posted by Robtard
Ep "Q Who" has the Borg stealth transport a Drone right into engineering while the Enterprises shields were up.

Edit: Also a good example of ST ships fighting while at warp speeds, as the Enterprise and Cube exchange attacks when the Enterprise tries to flee.

Weren't they getting hit by those shield leeching tractor beams at the time though?

I will confirm for myself though, I'm lucky to have the complete DVD sets :P

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Well, there are a few things...

Firstly, it depends greatly on how adaptable they are to SW Weapons. Now, I'm not one of those fools who says it is an impossibility because of how differently the tech works, they "Could" potentially adapt at some point.

Second, I don't think their warp fighting would matter all that much when the opponent literally can move thousands of times faster then they can. The only way to get at them then is to try and predict where they will pop up, and then, if they figure out about the gravity Well weakness in Hyperdrive travel, then it's possible to exploit that.

Third, Well, again, that depends on how quickly the Borg Ships get blown away. If it turns out to be a OHKO as per a few Warsies using the ICS Calcs, then yeah, I can say that the GE would literally wipe out the Cubes before they could transmit any adaption algorithms to the rest of the collective. Seeing as how I am more reasonable than many, I would say that they could transmit the algorithm by piecemeal, but that is going to take a while, especially since blasters aren't frequency transmission type weapons. Never understood this "blasters, so the Borg can't adapt" argument. Seems like a cop-out to me. There are blaster type weapon in ST as well. Some Klingon disruptors as an example. ST and SW are both particle weapons.

Yeah, the SW ships could potentially enter hyperspace and **** off. But the SW could still initially attack them while at warp. Which is a massive advantage.

All it would take in theory is one Cube getting shitbagged while another is in range to withness/scan it.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Hmm, the Klingon Disrupters are more along the lines of "Vapourise" rather than "Explode", but in the end it really doesn't matter. The Borgs initial adaption methods is to adjust their shields frequency to match the weapons fire, hence why they can't adapt to physical strikes, AKA Kinetic Impact Enegry. However, many believe that the ST Blaster Weapons are not frequency based, but rather DET Plasma Pulse weapons, making them harder to adapt to. That said, they are still energy based weapons, and I believe that, even though it would take longer, eventually the Borg can adapt.

See, there are two ways to deal with the Borg adaption method.

#1: Readjust your output (In Star Trek, this is done by the Feddies by changing the phase variance of their phaser weapons)

#2: Simply pour enough energy from your weapon systems to overwhelm the countermeasure. For example, I do not believe that a Drone could deflect a Super laser blast, no matter how well adapted it is to it, there is only so much power a Drone, or a Cube can carry, and Species 8472 proves it.



Well, that also depends on the circumstances of arrival. Also, one cannot attack realspace objects from warp IIRC.



Hmm, yes.... I recall now... Pre Voyager Borg were the shizzle.



Hmm, I'll have to run that episode first if I can find it.

Having said that, there seems to be a gigantic difference in power and abilities from pre to post First Contact Borg... Voyager Borg were woefully underpowered compared to NG.

If you look at the descriptions, they're not all that far off.

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Directed_energy_weapon

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Blaster

Both are particle weapons, both can use plasma (altered gas) as an energy source. If you follow the various hot-links, the weapons are eerily similar.

ST Warp/FTL allows ships in warp to still interact with real-space. That's why I said it's a huge advantage for the SW side in combat situations, while Hyperdrive is vastly superior in travelling.

The Borg were nerfed for Voyager, otherwise that show would have ended quicker.

Star Trek has superior tech and weapons. Also, the Borg could assimilate the Death Star, I bet.

Star Wars is still more awesome with better action and characters.

Originally posted by Impediment
Star Trek has superior tech and weapons. Also, the Borg could assimilate the Death Star, I bet.

Star Wars is still more awesome with better action and characters.

yeah but Star Wars just has Skywalker

while Star Trek has Kirk and Picard

Originally posted by Impediment
Star Trek has superior tech and weapons. Also, the Borg could assimilate the Death Star, I bet.

Star Wars is still more awesome with better action and characters. Star Wars has a higher number of cool characters but the best character out of both series without a doubt is Into Darkness' Khan.

Picard solos.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Picard solos.

Picard is such an awful character IMO.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Picard is such an awful character IMO.

You'd have to have watched TNG and the TNG films to be able to form an honest opinon of the character. So you're trying too hard again to troll/get attention.

Picard would smoke Khan in ship combat.

Originally posted by playa1258
Picard would smoke Khan in ship combat.

Yeah. But not a very fair comparison, as Khan's forte is fighting in the 20th century, before star ships.

Originally posted by Robtard
You'd have to have watched TNG and the TNG films to be able to form an honest opinon of the character. So you're trying too hard again to troll/get attention. I have seen the films and won't ever watch the shitty tv series. When Picard got angry in First Contact was laughably bad. Maybe he scared you I just laughed at his portrayal as some angry tough guy.


Abramsverse is the way to go when it comes to Trek. Only way to warp.

How powerful is the Reboot Trek-verse?

Unless their ships can slug and tank country busters and unless they have FTL capable of crossing the galaxy in hours and industrial capacity to build a small moon sized battle station in a few years, yeah, Star Wars should be able to blitzkrieg them

Originally posted by StealthRanger
How powerful is the Reboot Trek-verse?

Unless their ships can slug and tank country busters and unless they have FTL capable of crossing the galaxy in hours and industrial capacity to build a small moon sized battle station in a few years, yeah, Star Wars should be able to blitzkrieg them This is about the entire Trek universe not just the alternate universe. I was talking in terms of overall power, intelligence, etc. to compare the two.

Whatever. Anyways, barring one-off tech of the week bullshit Star Wars should be able to blitzkrieg

Originally posted by Kotor3
Star Trek simply because of the Q Continuum. They would wipe out anyone and anything from Star Wars. Read the op. No tv show characters of any kind.

I really don't get this obsession with gimping the primary trek universe. you can't get an accurate read on the universe if you forget 90% of the actual universe.

Originally posted by -Pr-
I really don't get this obsession with gimping the primary trek universe. you can't get an accurate read on the universe if you forget 90% of the actual universe. Films vs films is fair.

Warp in the NUTrekverse seems faster than the OLDTrek. Warping to Vulcan and Kronos in minutes comes to mind.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Films vs films is fair.

it's not fair to the primary trek universe. at all.

The Force>Star Trek

Originally posted by -Pr-
it's not fair to the primary trek universe. at all. Do you feel Star Wars wins based on these stipulations ?

Originally posted by quanchi112
Do you feel Star Wars wins based on these stipulations ?

yep.

Originally posted by playa1258
I think the Borg could defeat the Empire.

Are you kidding, The Jedi would destroy the Borg with their eyes closed.

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Are you kidding, The Jedi would destroy the Borge with their eyes closed.

no, they really wouldn't.

Borg would drop like flies before the Empire. Superior firepower is a wonderful asset

inb4 "Borg adapt" or "Borg assimilate" or whatever

Also, go away TI

Originally posted by -Pr-
yep. I disagree.


Trek has Klingons, Borg, Romulans, Vulcans, teleportational abilities, red matter, Khan Noonien Singh (two versions), etc.

Originally posted by -Pr-
no, they really wouldn't.

The Borg are like the walking dead compared to the Jedi. The jedi would wipe them out, all of them.

The Death Star would utterly wreck cubes and the sith/jedi would wipe out the foot soldiers like fodder.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I disagree.


Trek has Klingons, Borg, Romulans, Vulcans, teleportational abilities, red matter, Khan Noonien Singh (two versions), etc.

in very small quantities, which would be ineffectual against the bulk of the sw forces. sheer numbers alone, sw would overwhelm them imo.

Originally posted by StealthRanger
Borg would drop like flies before the Empire. Superior firepower is a wonderful asset

inb4 "Borg adapt" or "Borg assimilate" or whatever

Also, go away TI

actually the borg can adapt, whether you hate them or not.

Originally posted by StealthRanger
Borg would drop like flies before the Empire. Superior firepower is a wonderful asset

inb4 "Borg adapt" or "Borg assimilate" or whatever

Also, go away TI Are you kidding me ? Did you see how pathetic the droid army (which was a powerhouse in the Wars universe) and they are nothing compared to the Borg.

Originally posted by -Pr-
in very small quantities, which would be ineffectual against the bulk of the sw forces. sheer numbers alone, sw would overwhelm them imo.



actually the borg can adapt, whether you hate them or not. How would they overwhelm them with the shielding, transportational abilities, and the weaponry the Trek universe has access to.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Are you kidding me ? Did you see how pathetic the droid army (which was a powerhouse in the Wars universe) and they are nothing compared to the Borg.

Considering the Borg are strategically retarded in general and slow as ****, I fail to see the point in bringing up the droids. Or why the Borg are special

Ground superiority doesn't mean much when you control space and can just nuke the shit out of them from orbit

And Star Trek's firepower in space is cuty busting at best, compare to the Empire who can slug country busters

Originally posted by -Pr-
actually the borg can adapt, whether you hate them or not.

Which is a no limit fallacy

Originally posted by StealthRanger
Considering the Borg are strategically retarded in general and slow as ****, I fail to see the point in bringing up the droids. Or why the Borg are special

Ground superiority doesn't mean much when you control space and can just nuke the shit out of them from orbit

And Star Trek's firepower in space is cuty busting at best, compare to the Empire who can slug country busters They are slow but they can adapt to weaponry and assimilate. We see how powerful the Borg cube is and the sheer influence aka impact they have on the Trek universe.

Shielding.


Red matter is more powerful than anything the Wars universe has access to.

Originally posted by StealthRanger
Which is a no limit fallacy How so ?

if the borg are strategically retarded than how come they managed to turn defeat into near victory via time travel and also take control of the enterprise with a small platoon. also keep in mind that they only lost the combat sequence because picard was using hacks and knew precisely where to hit them.

please watch star wars first contact before continuing to downplay the borg, k?

Originally posted by quanchi112
They are slow but they can adapt to weaponry and assimilate. We see how powerful the Borg cube is and the sheer influence aka impact they have on the Trek universe.

Massively no limit fallacy



How durable?



Death Star laser is in the quintuple digit yottaton range (was going to say ninaton, though most people here wouldn't know what that is) and it's reactor can generate most energy in 24 hours then the sun can every 7000 years

Plus, red matter is hard to replicate and weaponise. It's pretty rare as well

If some jedi/sith got on a Borg ship, they would make them wish they never showed up.

Originally posted by StealthRanger
Massively no limit fallacy



How durable?



Death Star laser is in the quintuple digit yottaton range (was going to say ninaton, though most people here wouldn't know what that is) and it's reactor can generate most energy in 24 hours then the sun can every 7000 years

Plus, red matter is hard to replicate and weaponise. It's pretty rare as well No, that is just stating their abilities.

Watch the movies. They can take massive damage and weaponry.

We see them use it easily. The Death Star is much harder to construct and takes a lot more manpower than say Spock tossing red matter down your pie hole.

Originally posted by StealthRanger



Death Star laser is in the quintuple digit yottaton range (was going to say ninaton, though most people here wouldn't know what that is) and it's reactor can generate most energy in 24 hours then the sun can every 7000 years


"The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force."

Originally posted by quanchi112
No, that is just stating their abilities.

Show me the best thing they've adapted to. That their limit



I'm not doing your work for you, you show me their durability or you shut up



Building more is the question, which is very difficult, red matter also being non standard

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
"The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force."

Go flaunt your butthurt faggotry on MovieCodec or StarFleetJedi

Nobody cares and nobody finds you funny

Originally posted by StealthRanger
Go flaunt your butthurt faggotry on MovieCodec or StarFleetJedi

Nobody cares and nobody finds you funny

Did you even read what you wrote?

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Did you even read what you wrote?

Yes I can read, your mocking of SW arguments is not funny

Now **** off

1v1 or 1v10 i think the jedi can take the borg out. i dont think that borg shields would stand a lightsaber and they are pretty slow.

but what about 1v100? 1v1000? 1v100,000,000? the borg can assimilate an entire world practically overnight. you can't trivialize numbers and there are not many jedi even in the PT to hold the temple against an assimilated coruscant.

Originally posted by StealthRanger
Yes I can read, your mocking of SW arguments is not funny

Now **** off

That's the best quote in Star Wars cause its true. I don't appreciate your bashing, stay butt hurt about the truth.

Originally posted by focus4chumps
1v1 or 1v10 i think the jedi can take the borg out. i dont think that borg shields would stand a lightsaber and they are pretty slow.

but what about 1v100? 1v1000? 1v100,000,000? the borg can assimilate an entire world practically overnight. you can't trivialize numbers and there are not many jedi.

Good point, the sith/jedi would make mince meat of the Borg, they could rip the parts from their bodies and cut all their heads off. Since the swords don't really have a frequency I don't see them adapting as well.

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
That's the best quote in Star Wars cause its true. I don't appreciate your bashing, stay butt hurt about the truth.

>accuses me of being butthurt
>spouts off statements intended to flamebait Star Wars debaters

Sure, however you operate

Originally posted by StealthRanger
>accuses me of being butthurt
>spouts off statements intended to flamebait Star Wars debaters

Sure, however you operate

You started flaming cause I quoted a awesome star wars line, and then you start with the <><><><> like you always do. Seeing as we agree on this topic, you pretty mad about it.

Originally posted by StealthRanger
Show me the best thing they've adapted to. That their limit



I'm not doing your work for you, you show me their durability or you shut up



Building more is the question, which is very difficult, red matter also being non standard It isn't about raw power it is about analyzing and adapting the weapons used against them. It isn't an immediate thing.


You haven't shown me one video so please relax.


We see the red matter used in the film at various times. It is far easier to use and with far less manpower.

It is also more powerful.

Originally posted by quanchi112
It isn't about raw power it is about analyzing and adapting the weapons used against them. It isn't an immediate thing.

Translation: Hurr durr Borg can adapt to anythingz even if it's moar powerful than anything the ST-verse whit invincible adaptionz

Classic Trektroll logic

Show me them adapting to country busting attacks or, simply put, they can't



Don't need to



Based on?

Originally posted by StealthRanger
Translation: Hurr durr Borg can adapt to anythingz even if it's moar powerful than anything the ST-verse whit invincible adaptionz

Classic Trektroll logic

Show me them adapting to country busting attacks or, simply put, they can't



Don't need to



Based on? They lose numbers definitely but as in the movies once they figure it out they adapt.

So you demand evidence but won't provide any of your own. Hypocrisy.

Feats.

There is no way in hell those Borg personal shields could stand up to a lightsaber, with temperatures as hot as a star.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I have seen the films and won't ever watch the shitty tv series.
Oh dear God, why would you do such an awful thing as watch the films first? That's like f*cking a fleshlight and determining that the real thing is terrible, it's just...


You poor, misguided, fleshlit simpleton.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Oh dear God, why would you do such an awful thing as watch the films first? That's like f*cking a fleshlight and determining that the real thing is terrible, it's just...


You poor, misguided, fleshlit simpleton. The series from what I have seen is terrible. I feel bad for those who like the older shows. Just basically crapola IMO.

Abramsverse made Trek relevant be grateful.

Originally posted by quanchi112
They lose numbers definitely but as in the movies once they figure it out they adapt.

Like they did they the UFP and got destroyed by concentrated fire from dozens of ships even after "adapting" oe getting completely ****stomped by Speicies 8472 amirite?



No, I asked for feats of these shields, you refused to give feats



What feats?

Originally posted by StealthRanger
Like they did they the UFP and got destroyed by concentrated fire from dozens of ships even after "adapting" oe getting completely ****stomped by Speicies 8472 amirite?



No, I asked for feats of these shields, you refused to give feats



What feats? I never said they were unbeatable but they will do massive damage to the Wars universe.

Who in the Stars wars universe has an immune system this comparable ?


You won't post any feats and I already explained what is relevant.

So you don't know. What is the biggest thing the Death Star has destroyed ?

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Oh dear God, why would you do such an awful thing as watch the films first? That's like f*cking a fleshlight and determining that the real thing is terrible, it's just...


You poor, misguided, fleshlit simpleton.

fear not, he didn't see the original or tng films. only the reboot stuff.

quanchi is being a silly wiki/google/youtube tourist, which is his entire M.O. if you doubt me then challenge him with the easiest trivia and watch/laugh.

Originally posted by quanchi112
The series from what I have seen is terrible. I feel bad for those who like the older shows. Just basically crapola IMO.

Abramsverse made Trek relevant be grateful. It was already relevant prior to Abrams. Do you mean he made it relevant again?

Originally posted by quanchi112
I never said they were unbeatable but they will do massive damage to the Wars universe.

If they can't adapt to their attacks, they won't be able to beat the GE



All you said is "herp derp they tank alot". How's bout you tell us said attacks and how powerful they are, hmm?



Death Star destroyed Alderaan, said feat calced at 21,000 yottatons over at SD.net

The Borg ship got gutted by small force compared to what SW verse has with the Star Destroyers and Death Star. Their shields didn't mean crap.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
It was already relevant prior to Abrams. Do you mean he made it relevant again? It was a mediocre film series and awful tv series. This brought it into non Trekkie laps. It was a huge success and you can thank Abrams.

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
The Borg ship got gutted by small force compared to what SW verse has with the Star Destroyers and Death Star. Their shields didn't mean crap.

only got gutted because picard sensed their weak spot with his borg implants that he only had because the borg queen had a crush on him. it's completely fallacious to deny the relevance of that context.

And wow, this went south quickly....

Would everyone please calm down?

So many of these arguments are rehashes....

Originally posted by focus4chumps
only got gutted because picard sensed their weak spot with his borg implants that he only had because the borg queen had a crush on him. it's completely fallacious to deny the relevance of that context.

Sure, but when they did the scan of the ship it came up as extremely damaged and Picard had a way finish the job. The DS would take it out in one shot, or multiple star destroyers could team up on it, it could not repel that much firepower.

Yeah guys please calm down and quit stealing my arguments.

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Sure, but when they did the scan of the ship it came up as extremely damaged and Picard had a way finish the job. The DS would take it out in one shot, or multiple star destroyers could team up on it, it could not repel that much firepower.

sustained heavy damage to it's outer hull, IOW lots of superficial damage while they were slaughtering the federation ships.

Does anyone oppose Trek being more impressive here ?

original trek. NuFagTrek gets raped by the empire.

Originally posted by focus4chumps
original trek. NuFagTrek gets raped by the empire. No, they don't but they are together. Quit crying over NuTrek shitting all over old trek.

NuKhan shits all over wrath of khan as well.

Originally posted by quanchi112
How would they overwhelm them with the shielding, transportational abilities, and the weaponry the Trek universe has access to.

I doubt the shielding of so few ships could stand up to that kind of bombardment. the borg are really their only hope, and they wouldn't last long.

Originally posted by StealthRanger
Which is a no limit fallacy

no it isn't, as I never said that they had no limits to their adaptation. Just that they have proven adaptation abilities.

Death Star, Star Destroyers, Jedi, Sith reign supreme in all that is of space. Their power is overwhelming, they can destroy planets, whip out droid armies. Precognition of any fight gives them the advantage over every encounter. Their power will overwhelm all of NuVerse.

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Death Star, Star Destroyers, Jedi, Sith reign supreme in all that is of space. Their power is overwhelming, they can destroy planets, whip out droid armies. Precognition of any fight gives them the advantage over every encounter. Their power will overwhelm all of NuVerse.

OP said only movies.

Otherwise, the Q Continuum.

Originally posted by -Pr-
I doubt the shielding of so few ships could stand up to that kind of bombardment. the borg are really their only hope, and they wouldn't last long.



no it isn't, as I never said that they had no limits to their adaptation. Just that they have proven adaptation abilities. They can transport torpedoes and any manner of weaponry aboard. In both of the Trek universes on the big screen there are far more than a few ships.

Originally posted by -Pr-
OP said only movies.

Otherwise, the Q Continuum.

Everything I said was in the movies.

Originally posted by quanchi112
They can transport torpedoes and any manner of weaponry aboard. In both of the a Trek universes on the big screen there are far more than a few ships.

Federation ships don't transport torpedoes in the movies. Sure, it's a smart tactic that should be used, but the likelihood of them doing it, when they can just point and shoot, is not that high imo.

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Everything I said was in the movies.

The Death Star is the only thing in the movies shown to wipe out planets. What wipes out droid armies?

Originally posted by -Pr-
Federation ships don't transport torpedoes in the movies. Sure, it's a smart tactic that should be used, but the likelihood of them doing it, when they can just point and shoot, is not that high imo.



The Death Star is the only thing in the movies shown to wipe out planets. What wipes out droid armies?

What in the federation has been shown to wipe out planets? I forgot to mention clone armies. The droid suck and are cannon fodder.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Federation ships don't transport torpedoes in the movies. Sure, it's a smart tactic that should be used, but the likelihood of them doing it, when they can just point and shoot, is not that high imo.



The Death Star is the only thing in the movies shown to wipe out planets. What wipes out droid armies? We see Spock do so once but not enough to see them probably doing this all the time. I do believe they'd transport men aboard to cause mayhem as in destroy the ship or take it over. The transportational abilities are a huge advantage.

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
What in the federation has been shown to wipe out planets? I forgot to mention clone armies. The droid suck and are cannon fodder.

I never said anything in the Trek universe can wipe out planets.

There are things that can, but they're only in the shows, so not usable.

I'm not arguing that Star Wars would lose to nuverse. They wouldn't. They'd beat the primary trek-verse too with these stips. Just want to avoid lowballing etc.

Originally posted by quanchi112
We see Spock do so once but not enough to see them probably doing this all the time. I do believe they'd transport men aboard to cause mayhem as in destroy the ship or take it over. The transportational abilities are a huge advantage.

they would be, if the numbers were at all equal. Star Wars had massive fleets shown in the movies, both of fighters and capital ships.

Trek, even including the fleet from First Contact, can't match those numbers. Not to mention the hard limit on transports and how many people they can move at a time.

NuTrek teleporting is disrupted by shields. their weaponry is also laughably inferior. they lose. period.

even nero's mining vessel would be raped viciously by just a handful of star destroyers. overall star trek only wins via tactics or infestation/spamming in the case of the borg.

as far as brute force goes, emporer palpatine in his death star gorilla-pimps NuKhan's whole crew.

Originally posted by -Pr-
I never said anything in the Trek universe can wipe out planets.

There are things that can, but they're only in the shows, so not usable.

I'm not arguing that Star Wars would lose to nuverse. They wouldn't. They'd beat the primary trek-verse too with these stips. Just want to avoid lowballing etc.



they would be, if the numbers were at all equal. Star Wars had massive fleets shown in the movies, both of fighters and capital ships.

Trek, even including the fleet from First Contact, can't match those numbers. Not to mention the hard limit on transports and how many people they can move at a time. The Borg can assimilate and add their numbers to their own.

The massive ships IMO aren't as impressive as Narada, Enterprise, Borg Cube, or the Vengeance.



They only need to implement skilled combatants or to use red matter. Red matter really tips the scales.

Originally posted by focus4chumps
NuTrek teleporting is disrupted by shields. their weaponry is also laughably inferior. they lose. period.

even nero's mining vessel would be raped viciously by just a handful of star destroyers. overall star trek only wins via tactics or infestation/spamming in the case of the borg.

as far as brute force goes, emporer palpatine in his death star gorilla-pimps NuKhan's whole crew. Are you kidding me ? Red matter, Khan's cannon, Vengrance, etc.


Based on ? Narada isn't out there by itself all alone. Even by itself it was crushing the Klingon, Starfleet ships, etc. In this scenario it is all one well organized machine.


Are you kidding me ? Khan by himself did far more than any Star Wars character and he isn't alone this time. Khan would find his way onto the Death Star and use it against the empire.


Palpatine would want no part of Khan. He'd break his geriatric skull.

Originally posted by quanchi112
The Borg can assimilate and add their numbers to their own.

The massive ships IMO aren't as impressive as Narada, Enterprise, Borg Cube, or the Vengeance.



They only need to implement skilled combatants or to use red matter. Red matter really tips the scales.

Yes, they can. In fact, the Borg are the one thing that gives the Trek side a chance at victory, imo.

Disagree for the most part.

Disagree also. It could take down the Death Star, sure, but unless they're going to launch it in to an actual sun, then I don't see it really tipping the scales. A whole tank of it didn't even create a black hole big enough to keep the Enterprise trapped, and it's an incredibly slow firing weapon, only really useful on stationary targets.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Yes, they can. In fact, the Borg are the one thing that gives the Trek side a chance at victory, imo.

Disagree for the most part.

Disagree also. It could take down the Death Star, sure, but unless they're going to launch it in to an actual sun, then I don't see it really tipping the scales. A whole tank of it didn't even create a black hole big enough to keep the Enterprise trapped, and it's an incredibly slow firing weapon, only really useful on stationary targets. Red matter alone takes down the Death Star. The enterprise can move very quickly can the Death Star ?

Originally posted by quanchi112
Red matter alone takes down the Death Star. The enterprise can move very quickly can the Death Star ?

How is that question at all relevant to what I said? Or are you agreeing with me?

Originally posted by -Pr-
How is that question at all relevant to what I said? Or are you agreeing with me? You kind of agreed the Borg tipped the scales but then said they still lose. Red matter negates both Death Stars. The ships from Star Trek are far more impressive than the ships from Star Wars.

Originally posted by -Pr-
I never said anything in the Trek universe can wipe out planets.

does it count if the weapon doesn't blow up the planet, but rearranges all matter?

if so, the genesis device that RealKhan detonated.

Originally posted by quanchi112
You kind of agreed the Borg tipped the scales but then said they still lose. Red matter negates both Death Stars. The ships from Star Trek are far more impressive than the ships from Star Wars.

I believe that if Trek wins, it will be because of the Borg doing 90% of the heavy lifting.

Red Matter is great for the death stars, but it won't help much against the hundreds, if not thousands of ships on the Star Wars side.

Individually, maybe, but not to the extent that it would really make a difference in most cases.

Though I suppose the Enterprises D and E could lend the NuTrek some tech to augment their shields and weapons, if they have the time. Not that it would make much difference, though.

Originally posted by focus4chumps
does it count if the weapon doesn't blow up the planet, but rearranges all matter?

if so, the genesis device that RealKhan detonated.

Forgot about that.

If they're willing to go all suicidal and drop that in the middle of the Star Wars forces, it will take a large chunk of them out, sure.

Originally posted by -Pr-


Forgot about that.

If they're willing to go all suicidal and drop that in the middle of the Star Wars forces, it will take a large chunk of them out, sure.

they could beam it at as far a distance as they can and warp the hell out of there. star wars ships seem to need more time plotting trajectories whereas picard is all "getusoutofherewarpnine" and *BAM* they're gone.

the radius of that genesis blast was nothing to **** with. even when the enterprise was in warp you see the blast radius seem to chase them. whatever fleet they attacked would be decimated.