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1. Luke skywalker
2. Jacen Solo
3.Jaina Solo
4. Galen Marek
5.Palpatine
6.Vitiate
7.Yoda
8.HoT
9.Mace Windu
10. Anakin Skywalker
11. Meetra Surik
12. Darth Nihilus
13. Revan
14. Kreia
15. Darth Plagueis
16. Malgus
17. BarsenThor
18. Nox
19. Reborn Krayt
20. Jaden Korr

List yours

Into one collaborative list? hmm i'll have to think bout this one.

1. Luke Skywalker
2. Darth Sidious
3. Yoda
4. Jacen Solo
5. Darth Plagueis
6. Darth Bane (w/Orbalisks)
7. Anakin Skywalker
8. Darth Tenebrous

Will finish later. Probably.

I went with my top 10 Jedi and Sith in seperate lists (still adds up to 20) Opinions are welcome:

Jedi:

1) Luke Skywalker

2) Jacen Solo

3) Kyp Durron

4) Yoda

5) HoT

6) TOR Jedi Consular (sorry, can't spell it)

7) Mace Windu

8) Anakin Skywalker

9) Galen Marek

10) Obi-Wan Kenobi




Sith:

1) Darth Sidious

2) Emperor Vitiate

3) Exar Kun

4) Darth Caedus

5) Darth Vader

6) Darth Malgus

7) Marka Ragnos

8) Darth Revan

9) Darth Krayt

10) Count Dooku

Why?




Barsen'thor.




Why?

Well, I put Kyp Durron over Yoda mostly because of his strength in the Force being comparable (not equal) to Luke. Kyp's ability to manipulate artificial black holes (dovin basals) is a fantastic show of power that, iirc, only Luke has imitated. That's not a knock against Yoda, but more a result of the EU's philosophy of putting their characters on another level from the movie characters. TOR is the same way. Thanks for the Barsen'thor answer, btw. Exar Kun's place can be swtiched with Caedus, but I wouldn't put him any lower. What he does, both in life and as a spirit, puts him on the tier under Vitiate and Palpatine, imo.

Kun shouldn't be above Dooku or Caedus

Originally posted by carthage
Kun shouldn't be above Dooku or Caedus


I can agree on Caedus, but what puts Dooku over Kun?

Sith:

1. Darth Sidious
2. Darth Caedus
3. Darth Plagueis
4. Darth Vader ROTJ
5. Count Dooku
6. Reborn Krayt
7. Exar Kun
8. Darth Malgus
9. Ulic Qel Droma
10. Darth Wickett

No list for the Jedi.

Lol Darth wickett

Originally posted by carthage
Sith:

1. Darth Sidious
2. Darth Caedus
3. Darth Plagueis
4. Darth Vader ROTJ
5. Count Dooku
6. Reborn Krayt
7. Exar Kun
8. Darth Malgus
9. Ulic Qel Droma
10. Darth Wickett

No list for the Jedi.


So, what puts Plagueis at #3, Qel-Droma on the list, and who is Darth Wickett?

Plagueis is definitely in the top 5 IMO. The author states him to be equal to (if not above) TPM Sidious in a fair fight.

But how is Dooku #5?

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Plagueis is definitely in the top 5 IMO. The author states him to be equal to (if not above) TPM Sidious in a fair fight.

But how is Dooku #5?


While impressive, I don't see how that puts him in the top 5, unless you're saying either Kun, Vader, Caedus, or Vitiate should be bumped down, in favor of him. Vader, being 80% of ROTJ Sidious, should be up there, and Caedus was acknowledged by Lumya as being more powerful than his grandfather. Vitiate is a definite top 5, and Kun is a powerhouse as well.

Vader certainly isn't as powerful as Plagueis, tbh. the "80% of Sidious," thing is way too overblown. As I've said before, Sidious is still capable of stomping Vader, something he surely isn't capable of doing to Plagueis. He's > Kun as well, most likely.

Most likely? 100 percent

Originally posted by PTforthewin
Most likely? 100 percent


100%? Um, no, sorry. Exar Kun was the greatest Force user of his era. He achieved unparalleled prowess in lightsaber combat (quoted from Gnost-Dural) . His force blasts could crumble stone walls and kill Sithspawn in 1 shot. He walked into the Republic Senate and froze all those in attendance while dueling and defeating his former master, the Jedi Battlemaster Vodo-Siask Baas. Near the end of the Sith Wars, he performed a ritual that absorbed the life energy from almost the entire Massassi race, allowing him to leave his body and transcend into a Sith spirit. As a spirit, Kun was able to put Luke into a coma and almost separate his spirit from his body. I apologize if this got a little wordy.

Satele should be on the list near the middle

Originally posted by Kalen Sykes
100%? Um, no, sorry. Exar Kun was the greatest Force user of his era. He achieved unparalleled prowess in lightsaber combat (quoted from Gnost-Dural) . His force blasts could crumble stone walls and kill Sithspawn in 1 shot. He walked into the Republic Senate and froze all those in attendance while dueling and defeating his former master, the Jedi Battlemaster Vodo-Siask Baas. Near the end of the Sith Wars, he performed a ritual that absorbed the life energy from almost the entire Massassi race, allowing him to leave his body and transcend into a Sith spirit. As a spirit, Kun was able to put Luke into a coma and almost separate his spirit from his body. I apologize if this got a little wordy.
Ignore him.

Satele only killed featless fodder and beat a fat Sith Lord.

In no particular order (25):
Tulak Hord
Marka Ragnos
The Sith Emperor
Exar Kun
Revan
Darth Nihilus
Darth Traya
Darth Malgus
Hero of Tython
Barsen'thor
Darth Nox
Darth Bane
Yoda
Darth Tenebrous
Darth Plagueis
Darth Sidious
Dooku
Mace Windu
Anakin Skywalker
Darth Vader
Galen Marek
Luke Skywalker
Darth Caedus
Darth Krayt
Cade Skywalker

Revamped list:


1) Luke Skywalker

2) Jacen Solo

3) Yoda

4) Kyp Durron

5) HoT

6) Satele Shan

7) Barsen'thor

8) Mace Windu

9) Anakin Skywalker

10) Galen Marek




Sith:

1) Darth Sidious

2) Emperor Vitiate

3) Darth Caedus

4) Exar Kun

5) Darth Vader

6) Darth Malgus

7) Marka Ragnos

8) Darth Krayt

9) Count Dooku

10) Darth Revan


It sucks I had to take my favorite Jedi off the List, but adding Satele meant someone had to go.

Tulak Hord?
Darth Plagueis?

Tulak hord is near featless

Good catch:


1) Luke Skywalker

2) Jacen Solo

3) Yoda

4) Kyp Durron

5) HoT

6) Satele Shan

7) Barsen'thor

8) Mace Windu

9) Anakin Skywalker

10) Galen Marek



Sith:

1) Darth Sidious

2) Emperor Vitiate

3) Darth Caedus

4) Exar Kun

5) Tulak Hord

6) Darth Plagueis

7) Darth Vader

8) Darth Malgus

9) Marka Ragnos

10) Darth Krayt

11) Count Dooku

12) Darth Revan

Darth Bane?

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Darth Bane?


Where would you suggest? I hate continuously moving Vader down, but I would place Bane above him and under Plagueis on the list.

Above Revan, Hord, Vitiate, and Ragnos

But again weak due to the fact that he's never beaten anyone apart from Sirrak by virtue of his own skill

I can't put him above Vitiate. Vitiate is #2 on my list and I don't see Bane at that level. Above Hord and Ragnos, though, is good, though.

Vitiate has no feats off nexus, nothing to suggest he is more powerful than Bane on neutral ground.

Because he's just that good.

He's strong enough to punch through the armored torsos of Maladians, and his kick sent a Zabrak flying clear across a cabin, snapping his spine, and bursting his arteries.

He's fast enough that 11-4D couldn't detect his movements, and 11-4D was a high-end droid designed to track and record blaster bolts. He also noted that during his battle with Venamis, all an onlooker would see is two streaks of red lightning flashing through the forest.

His telekinesis is strong enough that his waves carry enough force to rip apart targets on a molecular level, blowing a squad of Maladians into invisibly small pieces with powerful shoves. (Investigators believed that the Maladians were killed by heavy explosives after the fact.) He also casually ragdolled Darth Sidious while the latter was still an apprentice.

As for other applications of the Force, his Force Lightning was powerful enough to turn it's target's bones into dust, and his FLS was of great enough magnitude to light up an entire landscape. He can also increase his own power for short periods by activating his own Midichlorians to their fullest potential, or by increasing the count held in his body.

He's not lacking in skill, either. Darth Tenebrous references Plagueis as a master duelist despite his distaste for the arts, and let's not forget that Darth Venamis--whom not only was Plagueis was able to defeat before his peak, but also was one of the most unpredictable fighters I can recall--was himself a master duelist of great enough calibre to switch and mix lightsaber styles and techniques while in the midst of combat. Despite having been trained specifically to counter Plagueis's style of combat, he was still bested.

Not only are his combat abilities magnificent, but he's also one of the hardest opponents to kill. His skin's force-enhanced toughness alone was compared to stone, the claws and teeth of two Kaleesh unable to even penetrate his skin, and with Midichlorian Manipulation he was granted similar abilities to Dark Transfer in the sense that he can bring beings back from the brink of death and efficiently heal even dangerous injuries. If all else fails, he also can perform cardioversions through the Force on any of his 3 hearts, and thus can control his own blood output and extend his life to continue battle despite having grievous wounds.

Plagueis would also supposedly have bested Darth Sidious had he challenged him to combat in TPM rather than murdering him underhandedly, and that speaks for itself. He's just top tier, I would agree with Carthage's placement of him--He's probably #3, or possibly even #2.

Originally posted by Kalen Sykes
So, what puts Plagueis at #3, Qel-Droma on the list, and who is Darth Wickett?

Darth Wickett was the Dark lord of the Sith who defeated his master Darth Reave who was the reigning Dark lord 300 years after Krayt's One Sith.

Krayt banished Darth Reave to Korriban and sealed him away in a cellar because he feared his power.

I know darth reave he's the fat sith who lived for thousands of years and slept most of the time

Originally posted by PTforthewin
I know darth reave he's the fat sith who lived for thousands of years and slept most of the time

Uh no? He is one of the most powerful Sith of all time. He's taken down a Republic cruiser with one flick of his hand, moved fast enough to create blurs of afterimages of blurs, defeated Darth Wyyrlok, Darth Nihl, Darth Talon, and Shado Vao with one lightsaber and a broken pancreas, and drained Ambria of the darkside spirits to use against the Vong.













He's a beastly Sith, and he's horribly misunderstood

http://img1.starwars-holonet.com/holonet/dictionnaire/photos/perso_dark_reave_1.jpg

Wait wrong sith

Got the names mixed up

He was the best in One sith, the only reason he didn't LOLSTOMP Krayt was because of Krayt's periods of inactivity and the fact Krayt and Wyyrlok used an ancient sith spell to seal him in Naga sadow's cellar. He eventually was slain in combat with the combined power of One Sith, FOTJ Luke, Jacen Solo, and the spirits of Old Ben, Yoda, and Anakin Skywalker.

Originally posted by Kalen Sykes
I can't put him above Vitiate. Vitiate is #2 on my list and I don't see Bane at that level. Above Hord and Ragnos, though, is good, though.
I'd suggest somewhere in the top five.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
I'd suggest somewhere in the top five.


Would you rate him above Exar Kun?

Originally posted by Kalen Sykes
Would you rate him above Exar Kun?
I would.

You mean Darth Plagueis? Definitely.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
You mean Darth Plagueis? Definitely.
I actually meant Bane, but I would definitely say the same for Plagueis.

Ok, version 3:

Jedi

1) Luke Skywalker

2) Jacen Solo

3) Yoda

4) Kyp Durron

5) HoT

6) Satele Shan

7) Barsen'thor

8) Mace Windu

9) Anakin Skywalker

10) Galen Marek

11) Obi-Wan Kenobi

12) Kyle Katarn



Sith:

1) Darth Sidious

2) Darth Caedus

3) Darth Plagueis

4) Emperor Vitiate

5) Darth Bane

6) Exar Kun

7) Darth Vader

8) Darth Malgus

9) Tulak Hord

10) Darth Revan

11) Darth Krayt

12) Count Dooku



I didn't want to go further than 12 on each side, so someone had to get cut. In the end, it was Marka Ragnos. I apologize to those who think he should be on the list, but I couldn't justify keeping him over anyone else. As for Kenobi over Katarn, I honestly think Obi-Wan could give Kyle a good fight, but I gave Kenobi the edge, because I felt he had better Force showings.

Lol @ Bane being above Kun, Krayt, Malgus, and Vader

Uh, yeah, Orbalisk Bane is above all of them lol.

I find it curious that you ended up placing Jacen above Yoda, but I won't argue it considering Solo is a bamf of similar proportion.



Interesting. Why?



Nah, Satele is good but not this high. Even at her peak she was never able to achieve more than a stalemate against Dark Council level opponents like Darth Mehkis and Darth Baras.



I'd consider bumping him up a few notches. This guy is much more of a beast than many give him credit for.



Not a bad list, in the long run. I myself find Exar Kun to be overrated, but the place you have him at is reasonable from certain perspective.

I also don't think Darth Revan is necessarily greater than Krayt or Tyranus, especially during his time pre-Rebirth.

Yep, I was hoping to Keep Kun in the top 5, but those orbalisks are too much of a game changer to ignore.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Uh, yeah, Orbalisk Bane is above all of them lol.

No reason to count him, Bane is shit without a nexus or his orbalisks and this is why I disincluded him on my list. He wasn't described as having "unparalleled lightsaber prowess", never blitzed four knights, didn't collapse a cathedral, or even beat anyone by virtue of his own skill.

His orbalisks are a cute toy to mask his weakness though

Doesn't really matter. In his peak incarnation, he is coated in a suit of Orbalisks.

I suppose that's fair, though, we could also take away Exar's amulets as well, and then he'd lose to Bane anyway.

Originally posted by carthage
No reason to count him, Bane is shit without a nexus or his orbalisks and this is why I disincluded him on my list. He wasn't described as having "unparalleled lightsaber prowess", never blitzed four knights, didn't collapse a cathedral, or even beat anyone by virtue of his own skill.

His orbalisks are a cute toy to mask his weakness though
Bane is not weak or shit. Once again you choose to ignore the numerous accolades and feats he does have due to your irrational hatred of him.

You do this to Vitiate, Revan, and Zannah as well.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Doesn't really matter. In his peak incarnation, he is coated in a suit of Orbalisks.

I suppose that's fair, though, we could also take away Exar's amulets as well, and then he'd lose to Bane anyway.

Kun off nexus one shot Odan Urr (on a lightside nexus), killed Vodo with one downward strike, and defeated his master while still a padwan. More impressive than Bane getting trashed by Sirrak, constantly needing a nexus to win fights, and never winning any fight by virtue of his own skill. Kun is a better force user and a significantly better duelist.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
I find it curious that you ended up placing Jacen above Yoda, but I won't argue it considering Solo is a bamf of similar proportion.



Interesting. Why?



Nah, Satele is good but not this high. Even at her peak she was never able to achieve more than a stalemate against Dark Council level opponents like Darth Mehkis and Darth Baras.



I'd consider bumping him up a few notches. This guy is much more of a beast than many give him credit for.



Not a bad list, in the long run. I myself find Exar Kun to be overrated, but the place you have him at is reasonable from certain perspective.

I also don't think Darth Revan is necessarily greater than Krayt or Tyranus, especially during his time pre-Rebirth.


Thanks for the kind words. I put Kyp Durron at 4 because of his Force abilities. being able to manipulate artificial black holes (dovin basals) is no small feat, and one I believe only Luke has replicated. Luke himself regarded Kyp as "frighteningly powerful", and Kyp was the only Jedi suggested by Vergere to be the next Sith Lord, other than the Skywalker lineage.


I can see your point on Satele, and I can move her down to #9 and move the other three up. Unfortunately, while I agree Anakin is a beast in ROTS, I think Mace is still ahead of him, and the Barsen'thor is regarded here as being above Mace and below the Hot (himself below Yoda). So, I can really only move Anakin up one space.

TOTJ and DLOTS were the first Star Wars books I ever read, so I still view him as a terror to behold, but I think he's placed pretty well. I agree that Dooku probably should be higher on the list, but I wasn't sure where to place him.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Bane is not weak or shit. Once again you choose to ignore the numerous accolades and feats he does have due to your irrational hatred of him.

You do this to Vitiate, Revan, and Zannah as well.

Name one fight Bane has one by virtue of his own skill aside from beating Sirrak. One.

He did both with Amulets.

This isn't a fight, but in DOE, he was practicing his saber moves, when it started to rain. He quickly changed to Soresu and blocked every rain drop that fell, so by the time it stopped, he was still dry. Quite impressive, considering Soresu isn't his preferred style.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
He did both with Amulets.

Prove that they aided him in any way apart from his blasts.

Even without them he's still a better swordsman than Bane, and he beat Vodo easier than Bane who got his shit packed in by a Kas'sim

I've thought about the Dorvin Basals as impressive as well, considering even Luke had a harder time with it than Kyp, but I really am not sure what it means to manipulate them.




The only way I can conceive Mace taking Anakin for a majority is by channeling Anakin's fury with Vaapad and thus increasing his own base capabilities, but he has no such advantage when considering a top 10.

I'm sure I could produce a valid argument for Anakin being superior to Mace at the latter's base strength, if you're willing to take the time to debate it.

A Sith amulet, sometimes known as a Sith talisman, was a powerful Sith artifact used to amplify the abilities of it's user.

Sith Lords such as Ludo Kressh and Naga Sadow owned and wore Sith amulets to amplify their power.

Wookipedia's articles seem to be congruent with me.

Zannah, and Siraak.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
A Sith amulet, sometimes known as a Sith talisman, was a powerful Sith artifact used to amplify the abilities of it's user.

Sith Lords such as Ludo Kressh and Naga Sadow owned and wore Sith amulets to amplify their power.

Wookipedia's articles seem to be congruent with me.

Neither of which prove anything I asked for, because Kun has beaten Vodo before and him defeating him a second time isn't terribly out of line with his abilities.

Secondly, other than his amulet amplifying his rage on Yavin nowhere is it implicitly stated that they amped him in any other exertion of his power. Not that it's a lot to disagree about, but I'm not really seeing it

Originally posted by NewGuy01
I've thought about the Dorvin Basals as impressive as well, considering even Luke had a harder time with it than Kyp, but I really am not sure what it means to manipulate them.




The only way I can conceive Mace taking Anakin for a majority is by channeling Anakin's fury with Vaapad and thus increasing his own base capabilities, but he has no such advantage when considering a top 10.

I'm sure I could produce a valid argument for Anakin being superior to Mace at the latter's base strength, if you're willing to take the time to debate it.


I believe it was mentioned in NJO that they took on the characteristics of real black holes, which would explain the difficulty in manipulating them. I would definitely be up to debate that with you, but I'm actually heading to bed, so it will have to be tomorrow. I'm open to a good argument that puts Anakin above Mace, though. Not even Sam Jackson could save that character. How do you go 3 movies openly not trusting him, then look shocked (no pun intended) when he does betray you?

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Zannah, and Siraak.

He fought evenly with Zannah in their final duel, and I already said he beat Sirrak.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Zannah, and Siraak.
Zannah used the nexus for an unblockable trump card.

Sirak beat Bane when Bane was at perhaps his lowest point in the trilogy, and once Bane bounced back he stomped him hard.

He only lost him through using a nexus to topple the pillar and kill Kas'sim he wasn't as skilled, Kas'sim sucked badly enough not kill him outright, and Bane had a nexus handy for his feat. Hardly an indication of his superiority as a duelist. Again who has he defeated in a duel without an amp, orbalisk armor, and or any significant darkside influence?

Originally posted by Kalen Sykes
How do you go 3 movies openly not trusting him, then look shocked (no pun intended) when he does betray you?
Well there is sort of a let down thing. He was about to wipe out the Sith once and for all one second, and the next he's a few seconds away from death.

Plus he got his ****ing hand cut off. I don't care what universe you're from, that's gotta hurt.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Zannah used the nexus for an unblockable trump card.

Sirak beat Bane when Bane was at perhaps his lowest point in the trilogy, and once Bane bounced back he stomped him hard.

Zannah still defeated him in spite of his supposedly "superior skill", superior force ability, and for him being supposedly a better fighter. You're not helping your cause, lol

Also Bane still could've drawn on that Ambrian nexus for his own abilities like he did in every fight he's ever been in. I guess he got old and senile as well as weaker and slower

Originally posted by carthage
Zannah still defeated him in spite of his supposedly "superior skill", superior force ability, and for him being supposedly a better fighter. You're not helping your cause, lol

Also Bane still could've drawn on that Ambrian nexus for his own abilities like he did in every fight he's ever been in. I guess he got old and senile as well as weaker and slower
The Ambria nexus was a better aid to Zannah because it unlocked an ability she wouldn't have otherwise been capable of.

Which doesn't disprove my assertion of Bane not being able to draw on its latent darkside abilities as he is prone too in every fight due to his lack of skill

Originally posted by carthage
He only lost him through using a nexus to topple the pillar and kill Kas'sim he wasn't as skilled, Kas'sim sucked badly enough not kill him outright, and Bane had a nexus handy for his feat. Hardly an indication of his superiority as a duelist.
You have no evidence for Kas'im being a shitty duelist, and I was referring to before Kas'im switched to Jar'kai when Bane was driving him to a quick retreat and almost cutting him several times.

Considering that Bane was able to do this after only around two years of lightsaber training, he's got a great deal of skill and natural talent.

Originally posted by carthage
Again who has he defeated in a duel without an amp, orbalisk armor, and or any significant darkside influence?
He defeated Zannah in a duel and threw Raskta on her ass before improving immensely in the area of combat that he used to outmaneuver her.

Again, who has beat him without some sort of advantage?

****ing really? A master of all seven forms who can't beat a trainee, in spite of being more skilled, holding back a form he doesn't know, and supposedly being better? Lol. But we've been through this when you lost the debate in the Saesee Tiin vs. Kas'sim thread. It doesn't take talent he practiced with Kas'sim and learned how to defend against his sequences, any padwan could've done that. It speaks volumes about Kas'sim how utterly retarded he was in not closing a victory with tons of advantages



Raskta would've killed him outright without his orbalisks, and again as this is a comparison against other Sith lords on the list its not my business to prove what one of Bane's featless adversaries could take him. Raskta did admirably in spite of Bane having multiple advantages against her, and she likely could kick his ass in a pure saber duel on neutral ground. He beat Zannah with Orbalisks in their first encounter, and on their second he was retarded enough to not draw on the Ambrian nexus and he lost.



Again, who has beat him without some sort of advantage?

Originally posted by carthage
****ing really? A master of all seven forms who can't beat a trainee, in spite of being more skilled, holding back a form he doesn't know, and supposedly being better? Lol. But we've been through this when you lost the debate in the Saesee Tiin vs. Kas'sim thread. It doesn't take talent he practiced with Kas'sim and learned how to defend against his sequences, any padwan could've done that. It speaks volumes about Kas'sim how utterly retarded he was in not closing a victory with tons of advantages
Kas'im was built up as a master duelist, and Bane's initial success against him prior to the Jar'kai switch, and bringing down the temple on him was meant to showcase power on Bane's part and not weakness on Kas'im's part. The fact that you cannot grasp the author's intent there baffles me.



Originally posted by carthage
Raskta would've killed him outright without his orbalisks, and again as this is a comparison against other Sith lords on the list its not my business to prove what one of Bane's featless adversaries could take him. Raskta did admirably in spite of Bane having multiple advantages against her, and she likely could kick his ass in a pure saber duel on neutral ground.
Bane's sole advantage was the orbalisk armor. Raskta had two teammates, and battle meditation improving the capabilities of her and her allies while reducing Bane's own capabilities.

Bane also vastly improved in his defense, the area he lacked against Lsu, and vastly improved his unpredictability and tactical ingenuity, with which he was able to hurl Lsu to the ground.

Originally posted by carthage
He beat Zannah with Orbalisks in their first encounter, and on their second he was retarded enough to not draw on the Ambrian nexus and he lost.
There are two reasons why drawing on the nexus wouldn't have worked that well. First of all, Zannah tapped deeply into it's energies. Maybe she was already hogging all of the nexus's power. Secondly, even if Bane did tap into the nexus, he still has no abilities to counter the tendrils with. The tendrils were for all intents and purposes an unblockable attack that Zannah couldn't have used without the nexus.


Originally posted by carthage
Again, who has beat him without some sort of advantage?
I'm still waiting for an answer to that question.

He has no feats to put him as a master duelist, and again given the conditions of his loss its a good assumption that he wasn't.



Orbalisk armor that amped him, and protected him from lightsaber strikes. Invulnerability was not his sole advantage, he also was massively amped in the duel



His defense never improved the only reason he was able to best Raskta is the fact he was impervious to her offense and the fact he was amped. There is no evidence he improved until probably DOE, and even then given that he's never beaten anyone but trainee Sirrak, that's only a hypothetical

[qThere are two reasons why drawing on the nexus wouldn't have worked that well. First of all, Zannah tapped deeply into it's energies. Maybe she was already hogging all of the nexus's power. Secondly, even if Bane did tap into the nexus, he still has no abilities to counter the tendrils with. The tendrils were for all intents and purposes an unblockable attack that Zannah couldn't have used without the nexus.



How am I supposed to respond to this? He's held numerous advantages to all of his opponents. Kas'sim wasn't competent enough to kill him, Raskta would've killed if he had no orbalisks, and Zannah sucks and could never have killed him in an honest duel on open ground. But given that the prior statement was him versus Malgus, Krayt, Vader, and Kun and their placements I don't see how this is relevant

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Zannah used the nexus for an unblockable trump card.

So? While fueled by the power of a Nexus she was able to use powers she may or may not have been able to apply effectively regularly. Bane's power was also being fueled equally by Ambria, so it's it's not like the setting gave Zannah an unfair advantage.

Originally posted by carthage
He has no feats to put him as a master duelist, and again given the conditions of his loss its a good assumption that he wasn't.
I've explained numerous times why this is fallacious logic and why this is a stupid line of thought you are going down. However seeing as explaining it again won't get us anywhere, I'd like to ask a question that I perhaps should've opened with. How does this same twisted line of logic of yours not apply to Baas and his defeat at Kun's hands?



Originally posted by carthage
Orbalisk armor that amped him, and protected him from lightsaber strikes. Invulnerability was not his sole advantage, he also was massively amped in the duel
And he had the counteramp of battle meditation working against him. Also Lsu and her allies count as being massively amped by concentrated battle meditation.



Originally posted by carthage
His defense never improved the only reason he was able to best Raskta is the fact he was impervious to her offense and the fact he was amped. There is no evidence he improved until probably DOE, and even then given that he's never beaten anyone but trainee Sirrak, that's only a hypothetical
I was referring to DOE when I said his defense improved. He completely refined his style by DOE.

The Orbalisks probably hindered the move he used to throw Lsu on her ass come to think of it. The weight of them would've lessened his agility, and it clouded his judgement. Again as of DOE he perfects the unpredictable nature of his style.

Originally posted by carthage
How am I supposed to respond to this? He's held numerous advantages to all of his opponents. Kas'sim wasn't competent enough to kill him, Raskta would've killed if he had no orbalisks, and Zannah sucks and could never have killed him in an honest duel on open ground. But given that the prior statement was him versus Malgus, Krayt, Vader, and Kun and their placements I don't see how this is relevant
Because every opponent that has faced Bane also had a set of advantages of their own.

And Bane besting Zannah in a duel and surviving Kas'im do not count as "unfair" advantages for Bane that somehow invalidate his feats.

Essentially you are dismissing his feats against certain characters because said characters didn't do that well against him, which is bad logic in and of itself. Essentially you are saying "Bane defeating this character is not impressive because that character didn't beat him."



In any case, it's like 3 in the morning so I'm probably gonna get some sleep.

Being 'built up' isn't the same as having actual dueling feats and having beaten individuals of high caliber. Kas'sim has nothing to prove other than that he sucks badly enough to be killed by a trainee. Sorry. Feats > "authors intent" and or whatever nebulous idea you have to compensate for Kas'sim's lack of everything



Who cares he still was protected to 99% of their lightsaber blows, still had a comparable amp and they were still featless opponents (aside from Raskta)



What lol? He was still supposedly more skilled by your estimation. You didn't successfully refute the idea that Bane could draw on Ambria for a nexus, and secondly even if they had an "Advantage" Bane had one that trumped them i,e a nexus or orbalisks. None of them were also ever on par with an opponent that could beat him by virtue of their own abilities either



They do when he's covered in orbalisks, and relies on a nexus to kill Kas'sim . Its not hard to follow without orbalisks he wasn't able to beat Zannah, because he was older, weaker, slower, etc. Its an easy line of thought to dollow



All of Bane's opponents were weaker than him, and he had significant amps that even trumped whatever advantage they had. This does not bode well when placing him with duelists that have fought their opponents and beaten them through their own skill, and or fought opponents that were close to their level.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
So? While fueled by the power of a Nexus she was able to use powers she may or may not have been able to apply effectively regularly. Bane's power was also being fueled equally by Ambria, so it's it's not like the setting gave Zannah an unfair advantage.

It gave her an ability she may not have had access to otherwise, making her victory circumstantial.

It didn't give her anything, it was an ability she had in her arsenal. If the Nexus's power allotted her the power to correctly use it, cool. Bane was also receiving a boost in power. I don't see how it's at all unfair.

It's not an ability she regularly has in her arsenal though. You said situational advantage. Zannah could (probably) only use that attack in that situation. Its an advantage to her because she not only had access to the same boost Bane (might have) had access to, but also access to an unblockable technique that she (probably) couldn't use in a neutral setting.

It's not unfair, but it was situational.



Sirak was also situational btw. Bane had lost most of his connection to the darkside due to personal issues. His unbalanced mindset severely weakened him.

What do you mean "might have"? Are you seriously implying that a Dark Side Nexus has no effect on Bane, while at the same time arguing that Zannah gained an advantage because of it?

The text says that the power had been "buried for centuries". Remember they were on Ambria and Thon had sealed the darkside nexus away.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The text says that the power had been "buried for centuries". Remember they were on Ambria and Thon had sealed the darkside nexus away.

Which doesn't answer how Bane wasn't able to draw from the latent darkside power when Zannah was able to in spite of being a darksider

Originally posted by Nephthys
The text says that the power had been "buried for centuries". Remember they were on Ambria and Thon had sealed the darkside nexus away.

Cognus mentioned there was a shitton of palpable dark power on Ambria, though.

Got a quote or scene description?


I also said maybe because it isn't stated that he was drawing on it btw.

Ok, here is my updated list:


Jedi

1) Luke Skywalker

2) Jacen Solo

3) Yoda

4) Kyp Durron

5) HoT

6) Barsen'thor

7) Mace Windu

8) Anakin Skywalker

9) Satele Shan

10) Galen Marek

11) Obi-Wan Kenobi

12) Kyle Katarn



Sith:

1) Darth Sidious

2) Darth Plagueis

3) Darth Caedus

4) Emperor Vitiate

5) Darth Bane

6) Exar Kun

7) Darth Vader

8) Darth Malgus

9) Tulak Hord

10) Darth Revan

11) Count Dooku

12) Darth Krayt

Originally posted by carthage
Being 'built up' isn't the same as having actual dueling feats and having beaten individuals of high caliber. Kas'sim has nothing to prove other than that he sucks badly enough to be killed by a trainee. Sorry. Feats > "authors intent" and or whatever nebulous idea you have to compensate for Kas'sim's lack of everything
Kas'im mastered all seven forms and several weapons. Kas'im also perfected every move and maneuver of all seven forms. He also defeated his master before reaching his prime, who was known to be particularly adept in the art of lightsaber combat. Aside from that, Bane who read up on the feats of ancient Sith Lords and was incredibly smart in his own right, considered the possibility that Kas'im may have been the greatest duelist whoever lived up until that point. Bane once again was not a trainee, he had just been promoted to the Sith Council and was only a few days away from becoming the Dark Lord of the Sith. We may not agree on how good he actually is, but assuming he sucks in light of all of these indications is ****ing retarded.

And the incredibly relevant question that you have dodged, how does this same twisted logic not apply to Vodo-Siosk Baas?



Originally posted by carthage
Who cares he still was protected to 99% of their lightsaber blows, still had a comparable amp and they were still featless opponents (aside from Raskta)
Raskta's teammates all assisted her in there. And Farfalla was described as having "perfect form."

And as I mentioned he still managed to outmaneuver her and throw her on her ass at one point, using an element of his fighting style he vastly improved on after losing the orbalisks.

Originally posted by carthage

Holy shit learn to ****ing quote right.

Originally posted by carthage
What lol? He was still supposedly more skilled by your estimation. You didn't successfully refute the idea that Bane could draw on Ambria for a nexus, and secondly even if they had an "Advantage" Bane had one that trumped them i,e a nexus or orbalisks. None of them were also ever on par with an opponent that could beat him by virtue of their own abilities either
The Nexus was a game-changer because it made a trump card ability available for Zannah that she wouldn't have been able to use otherwise.

Once again, you are saying that Bane defeating his opponents is not an impressive feat because Bane's opponents didn't defeat him. This line of logic is fallacious, as it could be used for just about any character to make them look like they suck.

For example:
Dooku defeated Obi-wan? Not impressive because Obi-wan wasn't good enough to beat Dooku.
Sidious beat Yoda? Not impressive because Yoda wasn't good enough to beat Sidious.
Kun beat Vodo? Not impressive because Vodo wasn't good enough to beat Kun.

Are you beginning to see the fallacy in this form of logic you like to use? It's ****ing horrendous, and you use it only on characters you hate because you hate them.


Originally posted by carthage
They do when he's covered in orbalisks, and relies on a nexus to kill Kas'sim . Its not hard to follow without orbalisks he wasn't able to beat Zannah, because he was older, weaker, slower, etc. Its an easy line of thought to dollow
I was referring to Bane's initial performance against Kas'im before Kas'im switched to Jar'kai you stupid ****.

I was also referring to Bane beating the shit out of her in the sabers portion of their final fight.

Once again, your line of logic sux dick. Yet again, you are trying to say that Bane defeating his opponents is not an impressive feat because Bane's opponents didn't defeat him. This line of logic is for the hundredth ****ing time fallacious, as it could be used for just about any character to make them look like they suck.

For example:
Dooku defeated Obi-wan? Not impressive because Obi-wan wasn't good enough to beat Dooku.
Sidious beat Yoda? Not impressive because Yoda wasn't good enough to beat Sidious.
Kun beat Vodo? Not impressive because Vodo wasn't good enough to beat Kun.

Are you beginning to see the fallacy in this form of logic you like to use? It's ****ing horrendous, and you use it only on characters you hate because you hate them.


Originally posted by carthage
All of Bane's opponents were weaker than him, and he had significant amps that even trumped whatever advantage they had. This does not bode well when placing him with duelists that have fought their opponents and beaten them through their own skill, and or fought opponents that were close to their level.
Aside from the Orbalisk fight, I don't see any significant amps he had over his opponents.

I wouldn't call Kas'im, Zannah, and a team of BM amped Jedi fodder.

The problem with using Sidious and PT examples is the defeated characters are all people that have accomplished things i,e have feats. So comparing Yoda, Obi wan, and to the fodder Bane defeated is all well and good, except Raskta, Vodo, and all of Bane's characters have zero feats to put them on par with the people you listed.

Bane still lost the duel with Zannah, who cares if he won sabers he still sucked badly enough to get his shit tossed. I also never claimed Vodo as a superior opponent than Kas'sim, they're both relatively featless with the minor exception that Vodo has actually beaten his students and actually managed to die against a student he made better as opposed to an incompetent teacher like Kas'sim who held back and still lost lol

As usual the rest of your post is original research nonsense. Kun, Malgus, Vader, and Krayt have all beaten a mixture of featless and opponents with feats- but they did so by virtue of their own skill and have force feats and dueling feats that are simply superior to Bane's.



He drew on nexuses to win, none of his feats off nexus world are as impressive as when he was on a nexus.

I wouldn't call Kas'im, Zannah, and a team of BM amped Jedi fodder.

So you can put people on the ignore list by going into their profiles and it's right at the bottom. No need to thank me.

More original research bullshit. Again either refute the simple claim that Bane has never beaten anyone by virtue of his own skill or concede the point. Give feats Bane has done bereft of a nexus, amp, or place strong in darkside energy that prove he's on the tier of Malgus, Kun, Krayt, and Vader or shut up.

I've successfully beaten you in three threads now, and its getting really irritating having to respond to your same posts.

Originally posted by carthage
I've successfully beaten you in three threads now, and its getting really irritating having to respond to your same posts.
No you haven't. I answer all of your points, and you respond with the same fallacious logic that I have just proven to be bullshit in my previous post.

You have not come anywhere near beating me as long as you blatantly disregard quotes in Canon sources with nothing more than your own word as back-up, and use logic that is fallacious in and of itself against only characters you hate. You have proven immense and irrational bias against certain characters, demonstrated several logical fallacies, and you ignore canon quotes. By doing this you have certainly not beaten me three times in a row.

Uh no you pulled out three completely irrelevant examples of PT Jedi who've beaten people with feats. I even called Ka'sim and Vodo both featless, so I'm not sure where that even came from.

I never disregarded cannon either, I simply maintain that if their feats are of a nexus, significant amp, or with prep then one has room to call them out if they lack showings. If you, Neph, and Ant don't like it it isn't my problem. Again provide me with actual dueling feats Bane has done without orbalisks, an amp, and or massively boosted or simply concede.

How does it make you feel when not one person in this forum takes you seriously anymore, or even reads what you have to say?
It must suck.

I could care less. Especially when its you three fanboys.

You could care less?
Note that we are the only ones that normally even bother to reply.
Now I have to go out of my way and click a little button to show your messages since your blocked.
Everyone else just ignores you entirely, though.

I hardly if ever engage in arguments on this site, I'm too busy making threads and conversation in this place. I could care less if you three retards dislike me. Also people post in the threads I make more often than not, so evidently I am doing something right.

You call me a retard: okay. You call dmb one: he's too drunk to care. But never, ever, call my Nephypoo something so rude.
I rather you didn't even make threads either. You spam like 20 a day.

Originally posted by carthage
Uh no you pulled out three completely irrelevant examples of PT Jedi who've beaten people with feats.
Those are hardly irrelevant quotes. It is proof that your logic is fallacious.

If you claim that one character defeating their opponent is unimpressive because their opponent didn't beat them, then that is fallacious logic.

Originally posted by carthage
I even called Ka'sim and Vodo both featless, so I'm not sure where that even came from.
You claimed Kun's defeat of him was impressive, and you claimed Baas>Kas'im.

Originally posted by carthage
I never disregarded cannon either, I simply maintain that if their feats are of a nexus, significant amp, or with prep then one has room to call them out if they lack showings.
Calling characters "weak" "shit" and "fodder" when those are extremely powerful according to canon counts as you completely disregarding canon.

Originally posted by carthage
Again provide me with actual dueling feats Bane has done without orbalisks, an amp, and or massively boosted or simply concede.
Bane completely shitstomped Sirak, who was head and shoulders above all the other students. He was driving back Kas'im before Kas'im switched to Jar'kai. His outmaneuvering of Lsu, who is highly impressive in her own right (the orbalisks do not invalidate the feat of that maneuver). He beat the shit out of Zannah in the lightsaber portion of their final duel. The logistics and statistics of his style are also highly impressive.

I make three sometimes more and sometimes they gain substantial and interesting posts. Coincidentally, the only people I seem to draw ire from are you three morons (who I've beaten in arguments before). If you don't like the threads I make don't post in them, and go back to pretending you are Revan like a good child

Execpet you haven't.
I can link you to about 5 threads in which you never even responded back to me.
Your "beaten in arguments" means you ignore canon statements and feats to make a fantasy victory.

Originally posted by carthage
I make three sometimes more and sometimes they gain substantial and interesting posts.
Coming up with topics for discussion that others provide clever insight on does not count as clever insight or intelligence of your own.

Originally posted by carthage
Coincidentally, the only people I seem to draw ire from are you three morons

Very few people have the patience to waste their time with you.

Originally posted by carthage
(who I've beaten in arguments before).
You claiming you have beaten us in arguments holds no proof. Especially when you are the only one who seems to think so, and have disregarded canon and used biased and fallacious logic.

Says the guy that believes Bane is superior to people who have more varied feats, have defeated more opponents by virtue of their skill, and who have just as many if not more accolades and showings than Bane.



Its more impressive because Kun beat him on two occasions by virtue of his skill not with a Lehon amp or nexus. I never made any claim Vodo was superior to Kas'sim. Try again.



Uh no? its trolling plain and simple. I've never dismissed the fact Bane and Vitiate are powerful force users. Just that their off nexus feats aren't in line with their supposed power, and that they aren't as strong as the fighters in question.



What part of showings without a nexus, amp, and or boost do you not understand?

Again most other users on this forum don't abnormally worship the characters in the SW universe like you, Neph, and Ant. I don't deliberately bother them because nothing I say bothers them. Is it any coincidence that you three losers are the only ones that make a fuss about my posts?

Originally posted by carthage
Says the guy that believes Bane is superior to people who have more varied feats, have defeated more opponents by virtue of their skill, and who have just as many if not more accolades and showings than Bane.
I defend my assertions, you blatantly apply fallacious logic only to characters you hate.



Originally posted by carthage
Its more impressive because Kun beat him on two occasions by virtue of his skill not with a Lehon amp or nexus. I never made any claim Vodo was superior to Kas'sim. Try again.
If you are saying Vodo is around the same level as Kas'im, who you consider to be shitty, then how does beating him count as impressive by your logic.

Yes, you made the assertion that Vodo was superior because he duels with apprentices.


Originally posted by carthage
Uh no? its trolling plain and simple. I've never dismissed the fact Bane and Vitiate are powerful force users. Just that their off nexus feats aren't in line with their supposed power, and that they aren't as strong as the fighters in question.
Trolling does not help your credibility or the validity of your word in any way.

And all of these quotes of you calling them weak come from debates that you were trying to provide arguments for.



Originally posted by carthage
What part of showings without a nexus, amp, and or boost do you not understand?
He had no unfair advantage for any of those feats I listed.

Not to butt-in on the argument, but Kun's first defeat of Baas wasn't due to skill. He was defeated by Baas, but refused to yield. Instead, he took Crado's lightsaber and unleashed an angry and very aggressive assault on Baas. The anger-fueled barrage broke the staff, but it wasn't by pure skill. Now, the fight in the Senate was more of a skill fight, but remember, Kun's style was completely foreign to Vodo, so he was at a disadvantage (like Bane against Kas'im's Jar'kai).

I mentioned all of this when I offered to debate their position.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
I mentioned all of this when I offered to debate their position. facepalm


My apologies, it's been a long week and I'm fried. Going by what you've been kind enough to submit, and since this is base strength fight on neutral ground, I see them as comparable, with Skywalker getting the edge. I still see Mace as one of the best duelists of the era, but with Skywalker's skill in Form V, as noted by Dooku himself, and Mace's own revelation that he's one of the most powerful of the Order and only getting stronger, I'll give it to Anakin. Now, where would you see Obi-Wan?

Originally posted by Kalen Sykes
My apologies, it's been a long week and I'm fried.

It's fine, I was just reminding you.

Now that it's covered, what are your thoughts regarding the situation?

Originally posted by NewGuy01
It's fine, I was just reminding you.

Now that it's covered, what are your thoughts regarding the situation?


I actually forgot about the original Clone Wars cartoon, so it was nice to see that again. Anakin's learning curve has taken him from a promising Padawan to an accomplished and powerful Jedi Knight. I also think that as arrogant as Anakin can seem, Mace is very prideful, himself, which could work against him. If Windu had taken Anakin with his team of Jedi, they might not have all died. I can't see Sidious slaughtering Kolar, Tiin, and Fisto, then claiming he's a weak old man and Anakin buying it. I'm good with dropping Windu down, but my only question at this point, regarding Anakin, would be just how accomplished/powerful is he, by ROTS?

How powerful is he? He caused a Control Facility that stood 90 feet tall and 90 feet in diameter to collapse/implode with a Force Scream, and had almost infinite Force reserves.

How accomplished is he? He was to the Clone Wars what Revan was to the Mandalorian Wars--He was the Republic's champion, and the warrior who defeated Darth Tyranus.

When Dooku himself was a Jedi, he was considered to be the greatest produced by the Jedi Order.

"The best of all would be the strongest student, yes? Wisest? Most learned in the ways of the Force? Best of all, Dooku would be! Our greatest student! Our greatest failure."

I myself regard him to be even more able than the Hero of Tython, at least as far as raw combat ability goes. (I mean, this guy took on both Count Dooku and Assaj Ventress simultaneously at one point.)

Jedi list.
#1. Luke Skywalker
#2. Yoda
#3. Mace Windu and HoT(I blame you for this Nephthys!]
#4. Revan and The Exile
#5. The Barsen'thor
#6. Satale Shan
#7.Obi-Wan Kenobi and Shaak Ti!
#8.Jaina Solo and Cade Skywalker
#9. Kyle Katarn and Jaden Korr(both are quite similar imo)
#10. Nomi Sunrider and Bastila Shan(Battle Meditation FTW)

Top Sith lords.

#1. Darth Sidious
#2. Emperor Vitiate
#3. Marka Ragnos
#4. Darth Bane
#5. Darth Plagueis
#6. The Sith Triumvirate
#7 Darth Zannah
#9. Darth Vader/Darth Krayt
#10 Darth Maul and Count

Shaak Ti?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Shaak Ti?

How many jedi can you think of that were able to turn a dark sided place like felucia and tame it with their very presence on the planet?

Thon?

She also gave Marek a tough fight

To be fair, though, it wasn't Marek at his peak. Also, she had the edge is sabers.

Galen marek never reached his peak

His TFU peak, then. Marek was more powerful on the Death Star than he was on Felucia.

Oh

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