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Imperial Knights of the Legacy era vs. Sith warriors of the TOR era

Force, sabers, all out

TOR Sith Warriors

TOR Sith warriors > TOR jedi
NSW Jedi > TOR sith warriors
CW Jedi > TOR sith Warriors
Legacy Jedi > TOR sith warriors
TOR sith warriors > Imperial knights

Imperial Knights.

See, Imperial Knights, by all appearances, are still called 'initiates' at the level where Jedi are called Knights.

One of the main characters in Legacy 2 is a green Imperial Knight, and he's still a badass. IKs are basically the equivalent of warrior Jedi Masters. Some still stronger than others, of course, but as a result a random sampling of them is going to have an edge over a sampling of other groups, if you leave out initiates.

Considering the TOR Sith Warriors are leagues above the NJO Jedi, I don't see what this proves.

Whats up with your TOR fanboyism?

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Considering the TOR Sith Warriors are leagues above the NJO Jedi, I don't see what this proves.

Based on... what, exactly? They and the One Sith are both fairly strong. Legacy 2 had a sith master TK a 30+ foot shuttle off a cliff, and he wasn't even considered one of the top ones around (strong, but just a 'thug').



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Combat oriented Masters are going to beat Warriors/combat-oriented non-Masters regardless of group. A sith master is generally going to beat a Jedi Knight, a Jedi Master a Sith Warrior.

A mook jedi is equal to a mook sith

TOR Sith Warriors. I never thought the Imperial Knights were really as powerful as the preceding eras jedi Orders (Same goes with the Legacy Jedi Order).

Originally posted by Q99
Based on... what, exactly? They and the One Sith are both fairly strong. Legacy 2 had a sith master TK a 30+ foot shuttle off a cliff, and he wasn't even considered one of the top ones around (strong, but just a 'thug').



---

Combat oriented Masters are going to beat Warriors/combat-oriented non-Masters regardless of group. A sith master is generally going to beat a Jedi Knight, a Jedi Master a Sith Warrior.

And a random TOR Jedi Knight collapsed two buildings on Malgus. Yet Malgus still knew he could kick his ass with the Force in multiple ways and one-shot him with lightning.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And a random TOR Jedi Knight collapsed two buildings on Malgus. Yet Malgus still knew he could kick his ass with the Force in multiple ways and one-shot him with lightning.

And a random PT era Jedi held a Star Destroyer up, and yet Dooku was confident he had become more powerful than any Jedi. (Yeah that's right I'm turning this into a PT vs. TOR convo.)

Originally posted by Lord Stark
And a random PT era Jedi held a Star Destroyer up, and yet Dooku was confident he had become more powerful than any Jedi. (Yeah that's right I'm turning this into a PT vs. TOR convo.)

That was pretty obviously either a gross exaggeration or a One With The Force moment.

Originally posted by Nephthys
That was pretty obviously either a gross exaggeration or a One With The Force moment.


Exaggerated? Dude it was critical for the bloody plot, if it were in a book it would have been the same feat. Also your Jedi Knight may have also had a one with the force moment.

I believe it was confirmed as exaggerated as Ant posted a quote saying that she merely slowed it down, not held it up.

He didn't.

What?
EDIT: Oh, I'll find the quote again, hold on.

"Rivi-Anu A young Jedi who served with Ki-Adi Mundi at Mygeeto during the Clone Wars, she sacrificed herself to slow the impact of a Republic cruiser into the planet's surface."

http://replygif.net/i/303.gif

Originally posted by Nephthys
I believe it was confirmed as exaggerated as Ant posted a quote saying that she merely slowed it down, not held it up.

He didn't.

Still far better than your mook Knight.

http://replygif.net/i/303.gif

I feel the PT fans would like that quote more...it now allows them to express OCW feats again, since that one was really what made them not able to, due to how ridiculous.
Being a KOTOR fan, I really couldn't care less. Just remember:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/ignore_jpg_scale_super/11114/111140132/3829937-0687279379-yay10.png
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/ignore_jpg_scale_super/11114/111140132/3829938-1215401146-yay21.png
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/ignore_jpg_scale_super/11114/111140132/3830902-jedi+swag.png
/thread

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Still far better than your mook Knight.

http://replygif.net/i/303.gif

The Jedi wasn't doing a desperate all-my-power last stand to do the feat though.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The Jedi wasn't doing a desperate all-my-power last stand to do the feat though.

Here you might need this Neph.

http://hnsa.org/doc/dc/img/cover.jpg

No, but seriously it's no different from Ganner Rhysode.

Heck with a quote, I have the comic! I posted the comic! In this thread

Rivi-Anu did hold it, but briefly, and it looked very very much like a 'one with the force' moment to me, where she sacrificed her life to buy the moments needed for the others to run.

Rivi-Anu, obvious from just the one feat, was no average knight.


Originally posted by Nephthys
And a random TOR Jedi Knight collapsed two buildings on Malgus. Yet Malgus still knew he could kick his ass with the Force in multiple ways and one-shot him with lightning.


An average knight can't do that unless the buildings are pretty easy to collapse (and depending on how they're made, could be. Just push over some supports and let gravity do the rest. Though it sounds to me like you have a prodigy in there).

Some people who are in the knight rank but really stronger do exist, but if you're including exceptional people, you gotta do it with both sides to be fair. Most TOR Jedi Knights couldn't do that, and if they could, the Sith would have a much harder time of it.

Or... are we sure it wasn't a master, just without the masterness pointed out?





Again, based on what?


The Imperial Knights are definitely a smaller order, so in total power, sure, but like I said, they're also shown to only give the rank at a fairly high skill level. The only IKs treated as not particularly powerful are the initiates. Individual Imperial Knights have done some pretty impressive fights. Azlyn Rae is a Jedi Master-turned-Imperial Knight, and she's not even exceptional among the IKs. They do lack anyone in the top tiers, there's no Malgus or Windu among them, but we see large numbers of them who perform well against strong foes in both force and sabers, and a number that I'd put up against combat-focused Jedi Council members in most eras (Like Antares Draco and Ganner Krieg).

As for the Legacy order... well, they're the order founded by Luke, so they've got no problems in the training department. Got some people of nice potential too. Featwise, they're fine. Their foes, the Sith, also have some nice feats, certainly the masters among them do, and Luke and Caedus both respected their boss.


Gonna need more than "I vaguely feel they're less powerful." A lot of people here used to say that. Fortunately, that's less common now they've become more aware of the feats.


Some people act like they're not three orders that have been fighting each other for the last decade with a number of certified badasses among them....

Even better from that feat is the fact that Ki-Adi implies he's powerful enough to hold it.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Even better from that feat is the fact that Ki-Adi implies he's powerful enough to hold it.

All he does is say she's not strong enough, that doesn't mean he is. Else, he would help.

Yeah if he could do it, he'd have held it up after clearing the danger zone while she got out from under it.

Originally posted by Q99
An average knight can't do that unless the buildings are pretty easy to collapse (and depending on how they're made, could be. Just push over some supports and let gravity do the rest. Though it sounds to me like you have a prodigy in there).

Some people who are in the knight rank but really stronger do exist, but if you're including exceptional people, you gotta do it with both sides to be fair. Most TOR Jedi Knights couldn't do that, and if they could, the Sith would have a much harder time of it.

Or... are we sure it wasn't a master, just without the masterness pointed out?

My point was that some random dude doesn't really prove much as being representative of the era. That guy was far from the elite of his era as well yet his feat was above many of the elites in other era's. Your reasoning here and in the previous post applies just as much to the TOR era as it does the Legacy era. Most Sith Lords can't TK a 30 foot shuttle.

Originally posted by Q99
All he does is say she's not strong enough, that doesn't mean he is. Else, he would help.


He very clearly begins to reache out with the force. +He had to coordinate the troops moving.

Originally posted by Nephthys
My point was that some random dude doesn't really prove much as being representative of the era. That guy was far from the elite of his era as well yet his feat was above many of the elites in other era's. Your reasoning here and in the previous post applies just as much to the TOR era as it does the Legacy era. Most Sith Lords can't TK a 30 foot shuttle.

No, but that's a 'considered-strong-but-not-top' Sith Lord. There's a couple stronger than him outside the inner circle, like Luft. So he's *reasonably* representative.

And there was an Imperial Knight who gave a very good fight to that one specifically.


(Btw, the lord in question with the shuttle feat is 'Darth Wredd's master'. Despite him being reasonably significant, his name simply never came up, which is why I've yet to give the name)

A scene from Legacy 2-

Jao Assam, full Imperial Knight who's considered talented but a bit young (and less strong than his master, Yalta Val), is facing Darth Luft, sith lord who's previously disparaged Wredd and Wredd's master.

They face off in sabers on a floating platform, neither gets the edge, Luft throws a multi-ton hunk of metal against Jao, Jao tries to block it but isn't strong enough and is hit by it and knocked into the water.

Then, two Cadets of the IKs come in full armor! They were deployed to the situation by their trainer who needed additional muscle and said they were up for combat deployment. Luft wonders aloud if he'll at least get a workout.

Half a second later both are effortlessly disarmed by Luft's saber skills. Luft laments no workout. Jao takes advantage to sneak up behind Luft and attacks.


So dude can take down pairs of padawans without even trying, but a full Knight, even one on the junior side, is a serious fight for him.



Marasiah Fel, also, killed sith in combat while she was still a IK apprentice, and then once promoted she was put on missions alongside masters.



---

You have to understand, the total number of full Imperial Knights is about 60~. According to the Legacy era campaign guide, the way it works is, basically, prospective recruits just stay in training for extremely long periods until they finally reach the required level. Or, I would suspect, when a position finally opens due to the passing of a IK. We do know on a few occasions they've also taken in Jedi who're willing to swear the oaths- again, master level (the main example is Azlyn Rae, who was on the strike team at the confrontation between Karness Muur and Darth Krayt, and she was the one who stabbed Krayt in the neck while he was in a lightning duel with Muur).


So they're an all-elite, but few in number, group, always lead by a Fel. Five random IKs is thus a lot different of a thing than five random Sith Warriors or Jedi Guardians.

I'm not sure what you just tried to prove, other than that padawan level IK's can't compete with a Sith Lord. Which is um, not really something that needed proving.

Sith Warriors are also the elite of the Empire's troops.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm not sure what you just tried to prove, other than that padawan level IK's can't compete with a Sith Lord. Which is um, not really something that needed proving.

The bit where the one somewhat-green full Knight can take on a Sith Lord of that level is the key factor.

In other words, any Imperial Knight could do that well, the experienced ones better. Again, until someone is at that level, they are not considered an Imperial Knights. The padawan equivalents are people who *want to* be Imperial Knights. Marasiah Fel, capable of taking down sith in combat and easily Jedi Knight level at the least, still wasn't an IK at first.





But they are still troops, so to speak. They are not Masters. They are not Lords. They match up fairly well against the experienced Jedi Knight guardians defending the temple. The most promising among *them* become Lords.


Imperial Knight is a title akin to Sith Lord rather than Sith Warrior.

Your reasoning implies that rank=power, which isn't true. You're also implying that Jedi Knights couldn't fight Imperial Knights because they aren't Masters. Finally, you still haven't proved that Imperial Knights have been shown to be better than TOR Jedi.

Q99,

You honestly have no point in this discussion, ranks do not determine quality. You did point out that Imperial Knights are good but you are underestimating the quality of Sith in the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire in general.

It can be argued that Sith reached epitome of their quality as an Order within the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire. Their is a great deal of information in Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia concerning this matter, I recommend you to read this book if you haven't already.

Sith Warrior represents a Sith discipline/class and have nothing to do with ranks of an individual. An individual can become a Sith Warrior irrespective of the rank factor, from apprenticeship to top of the Sith hierarchy. Look no further then the example of Darth Malgus.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Your reasoning implies that rank=power, which isn't true. You're also implying that Jedi Knights couldn't fight Imperial Knights because they aren't Masters. Finally, you still haven't proved that Imperial Knights have been shown to be better than TOR Jedi.




Really? Are you implying that Sith Lords are not stronger than Sith Warriors which are not stronger than Sith Apprentices? That Jedi Masters are not, on the whole, stronger than Jedi Masters?


Rank does determine quality when you must get that level of quality in order to get the rank.



Basically, take two equal batches of 300 lightside force sensitive people. Give 'em to the Jedi, and the Imperial Knights. The Jedi will get 200+ Jedi from them, most of whom will be weaker. The Imperial Knights'll get, oh, 30.


The IKs and the top 30 Jedi Masters will be the exact same level, same candidates and all, but the Jedi will also have a bunch of less powerful knights. Because the IKs simply only give the top 30 the rank, their average will be higher from simple exclusion of the weaker.

A random sampling of a group that includes weaker people will have a lower average than a random sampling of a masters-only group. Whichever the order the master-only group is from.

Originally posted by Q99
Really? Are you implying that Sith Lords are not stronger than Sith Warriors which are not stronger than Sith Apprentices? That Jedi Masters are not, on the whole, stronger than Jedi Masters?

Sith Warrior isn't a rank, and on the whole Sith Lords, Jedi Masters, and Jedi Knights have all held the rank of fodder. Let's not kid ourselves.


No, when you get the level of maturity, and experience, especially considering teaching in this case, you get the rank. You can be the best private in the history of an army, kill 600 people with your bare hands, and then take a capital single handily. You won't be a general once it's all said in done.



The Jedi Knights still get the good ones, so this proves nothing. I guess on the average this may lower the sample, but first you have to prove that the best here is somehow above the average there.

That does not make IK>Jedi Knights. You're assuming that everyone makes it to the rank of Jedi Knight and that this is some simple task. It isn't.

Except the Old Republic shows the Jedi and the Sith at the height of their power overall and collectively, skillswise. It doesn't matter how you compare the IK's to the NJO with arbitrary numbers, because the NJO do not stack up to the OJO.

In my opinion the imperial knights seem stupid and not-needed just like the Fel empire, there should only be 2 different factions fighting eachover.

Except when someone becomes a lord, they stop being called just a Sith Warrior most of the time.

And 'fodder' is relative. A Lord/Master can be fodder to the leader of the Sith Order/Jedi Order, but still be stronger than a Jedi Knight/Sith Warrior.






Because being a general is based on command ability, not kickass ability. If you're in an organization that promotes on kickass ability, the high ranks will be more kickass.

The Imperial Knights promote on kickass. Their primary job is combat. There are no IK diplomats or such. They handle diplomacy by being assigned to guard a diplomat.




If you have a group of 200 Padawans, Knights, and Masters, and I have a group of 30 Masters, and 12 are randomly selected from each group, then on average you'll have 4 padawan, 4 knights, and 4 masters- or perhaps even more padawans and knights- while I'll have 12 masters every time.

My group will win pretty much every time.

That's what's happening here.


Sith Warriors- even if you include warriors-turned-lords, then you're going to have some Knight-level and some Master-level out of the 5.

A group of 5 masters will still win, because the Sith have got less powerful people included in and the IKs don't.





Already done so. The Imperial Knights only give someone the rank. What a 'relatively inexperienced' Imperial Knight can do has been mentioned multiple times.


Seriously, are you arguing 'the Master equivalents, who only get the title when they reach a level of master, who often fight with Master Jedi and Master Sith, aren't above average of another side'?

There doesn't seem to be much of an argument here. I've given both feats and the very way the title is given. You've given 'but that doesn't really mean what you just said, right?' and 'but surely a group of only masters isn't really stronger than a group of mostly knight equivalents, right?'.



And let's just throw in a quote from the RPG: "The Imperial Knights are among the most talented and dangerous force-users in the galaxy."

And before one starts to try and imply something about the power of the era in general- yes, they have high force feats, dueling feats, and have interacted with people of the Old Empire, KotoR, Clone Wars, and Luke's order. There is precisely nothing to indicate they're any weaker on average. If you wish to indicate so, bring evidence to prove it and don't just imply it without being able to back it up.

Originally posted by Q99
Except when someone becomes a lord, they stop being called just a Sith Warrior most of the time.

No they aren't. There is no Sith Warrior rank. Sith Warrior is a profession.

Sith Warrior= Jedi Knight is a game mechanic at best and a laugh at you being funny at worst. Sith Warrior is not a rank that it is earned. It is a Sith who primarily uses their talents for direct saber combat. No matter how far up the latter one goes, they do not stop being a warrior. They do however stop being knights. And most masters have been shown to be fodder to most important people because important people are powerful, regardless of rank. You do not have to be powerful to be a Master, something that has been shown many times.




Which no logical military or monastic force is designed on.

I'm sorry, but what? They're still a disciplined military force. Power is not all that it takes to be an Imperial Knight. Many of them are still leaders and tacticians.



You're still somehow under the impression that rank means power even though this is supported nowhere in the mythos.

"Because of my opinions."

Not really, because your starting insinuations are false. Nothing has shown that the Jedi screening process is somehow inferior, nor does it show that they are weaker overall.



Where have you been? Are we talking about the same Sith? People come into the Academy leaving in body bags. Also read what I said above, again, about rank not equaling power.


That proved absolutely nothing. The average Imperial Knight has not been shown to be above TOR Sith or Jedi for that matter because of your opinions on the ranking system and screening process

I don't have to argue a definite fact represented in the universe by every source. I honestly don't know why I'm still replying to you somehow thinking that power=rank.

I never said that; what I did say is that holding a rank doesn't make you any more powerful than anyone else, which for some reason you continue to imply without any evidence to back it up.


TOR Jedi and Sith are not still in the galaxy.

And Sith Lords *still* aren't called it very often.

And still, that supports the point- Sith Warriors aren't a specific rank. Imperial Knights are, and a high one. Sith Lord is, and a high one. A rankless title that covers lower and mid-rank people as well as high rank ones is, in a random selection of members, going to have more weaker members in it than a title that is just high rank ones.





*Looks at the deception trailer* Oh look, it's sith warriors and jedi knights fighting on even terms. That's game mechanic?



The Imperial Knights are primarily bodyguards and military strike force. They are neither a complete military nor monastic force.

Though how force users and military go together never makes much sense, see Jedi and Sith generals.




Sure, you can be promoted because of diplomacy, politics, or what have you, depending on what the order wants.... and these ones are promoted due to combat, because that's all they do.



So you insist that if there was a matchup between five Sith Warriors and five Sith Lords, you would not bet on the Lords?




Ranks can be given in response to power. These are.

And you're also brushing off that there are examples of power to support it.

Saying "power does not equal rank" does not allow you to brush aside power.



If you argument is rank and profession is completely irrelevant, then why are you even debating a vs where literally the only information is the numbers, rank and professions of the two sides?

Given information: "One side has 5 members of the rank and profession of Imperial Knight, the other side has 5 members of the rank and profession of Sith Warrior."


Also, I've given information to back up the strength of the Imperial Knights. You've brushed it aside because you feel it's rank based.

Basically you're trying to put yourself in a position where you can ignore any evidence because it's evidence on the strength of people who are Imperial Knights or Sith Warriors, when in fact that is the exact information that the op is asking.




Do you feel this is an argument for them in some respect? Do you feel some eras are just innately more or less powerful? Do you have any evidence that TOR rank and file are more powerful, or are you just going to imply it without backing it up?

Originally posted by Q99
And Sith Lords *still* aren't called it.

Go ahead and give me the source. For that matter, give me the source that Sith Warrior is the title given to anyone instead of a profession.



You don't know the rank of literally anyone there except for Zallow and Malgus. Either way, that hardly discredits that power =/= rank.


And the point? They still follow the same logic. Being able to blow things up with magic has never been a qualifier for the Knights.



Combat prowse =/= power either. This is skill, and it is not the only skill that any Knight has ever shown. They aren't a bunch of meatheads.


Sith Warrior is not a rank.


None of that has eclipsed anything. Nothing you have shown has shown the average of either side eclipsing the other.


Because a Sith Warrior can be powerful, and is powerful, regardless of rank, a fact that still eludes you for some reason.

SITH WARRIOR IS NOT A RANK.

Never said that either, that was actually a claim that you made. That an Imperial Knight is equivalent to a Jedi Master, because reasons.

Your claim is that Sith Warrior is somehow bound by rank, when it isn't. Something that I have refuted many times now. Do I think the average Imperial Knight could kill the average Sith Acolyte? Yes, without question. However, a Sith Warrior is not bound by titles, it is a fighting focus.


There was already a quote posted about how powerful the TOR Jedi are. I don't need to post another.

Definitely the last time I'm speaking on the matter.

You want a source that people... aren't called something? How about proving a positive instead of asking me to prove negatives?

And I don't actually contest that it's a profession. That's the point- Warrior is a profession (and the name of a profession can be called a title, but whatever) that has people of different levels. Imperial Knight is a rank given to those of high level only.




Sure, it's a fighting focus. Including, gasp, people who are only equal to a Jedi Knight and having a fighting focus. See, I'm agreeing with you here.

An Imperial Knight is someone who's, specifically, equal to a Jedi Master or Sith Lord, and has a fighting focus.

As I've covered a few times. That's what it means.




Being highly combat capable is, actually, a required qualifier for being an Imperial Knight. They do have other skills but you cannot qualify without being a combat badass, you will not get the title.

Btw, to go to the RPG again, levels aren't everything, but- Random unnamed Imperial Knight, Level 11, all in force-using classes.

Maris Brood, level 7. Kueller, who beat a wounded Luke, 9. Xanatos, Qui-Gon's student before Obi-Wan, 9. All weaker than literally any Imperial Knight.

Again, being combat badass is a requirement to being an Imperial Knight.






I like how your argument is "Ranks don't matter for power. Except for the non-rank title of Sith Warrior, which totally matters more for power and means they're stronger!"



Sure, TOR Jedi are strong. Are random TOR Jedi Knights stronger than Masters from other eras? That, you've yet to prove any backing for.


"Sith Warrior is not a rank" doesn't even come close to supporting your conclusion that Sith Warriors are stronger.


There is a major gap here where you're arguing that ranks *never* matter for power (Counterpoints: Rule of Two Sith Lords... any rank given specifically for reaching a certain level of power), and then somehow concluding that that makes your side stronger.