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We're using the classic line ups, pre new52 for DC. Hell powers for Hellcat. No substitutions.
Match them up any way you want, explain if you'd like. First round is individual matches, no prep. No BFR.
Following rounds at 5 minute intervals, if both sides are no longer even, double team however you think best. Rounds go on till one team wins.

I matched mine up as: the team leaders, the warrior women, the two fastest, the strongest one/the strongest will, the two norms (more or less) and the two water breathers for variety, and the two left over.

ROUND 1
Superman-Dr. Strange
Wonder Woman-Valkrie
Flash(Wally)-Silver Surfer
Green Lantern(Hal)-The Hulk
Batman-Sub Mariner
Aquaman-Nighthawk
Martian Manhunter-Hellcat

ROUND 2
Wonder Woman and Martian Manhunter-Dr. Strange
Aquaman-Sub Mariner
Green Lantern-silver Surfer

ROUND 3
Wonder Woman-Sub Mariner
Martian Manhunter-Silver Surfer

ROUND 4
Wonder Woman-Silver Surfer

WINNING TEAM: Defenders

Thats how mine broke down...

My matches:

Round 1
Superman-Namor
Wonder Woman-Hulk (Lasso)
Flash(Wally)-Strange (Flash KO)
Manhunter - Surfer
Green Lantern-Valkyrie
Batman-Hellcat
Aquaman-Nighthawk


Round 2
Superman, Wonder Woman, Flash, Lantern, Batman, Aquaman vs Surfer.

JLA win.

My reasoning:
The presence of pre-52 Batman and MM. Pre-52, the JLA had one of the best teamwork around. With Bats there (i.e., me), I would apply strategy and tactics to determine the matchups that I have here.

Without BFR, the best bet to take Hulk out is with WW's lasso (I wanted to avoid endless arguments of Supes/Hulk, or whether MM can take control of Hulk etc).

With Strange, I firmly believe that for all his power, he still has a human's level of reactions. So an extremely powerful version of the foes Flash faces (Captain Cold, Mirror Master etc) - i.e. a human. But still, only human.

The others should be self-explanatory, I hope.

Nice. I opted for more competitive, but thats dang fine Batmanning!
Question, and not to dispute the outcome but, do you think Hulk could snap the lasso? Its never been done that i'm aware of.

Dang it, i really AM sleepy today.
I can dispute your match up in one way. How does Batman set up these matches and the Defenders not have a say?

Edit:
I hope you know i'm just nit picking. Board's quiet and you're fun to post with!

Originally posted by riv6672
Nice. I opted for more competitive, but thats dang fine Batmanning!
Question, and not to dispute the outcome but, do you think Hulk could snap the lasso? Its never been done that i'm aware of.

It's certainly debatable, there's an example of Bizarro doing it (which has some people debating its canonicity), but I was angling for WW using it to either make Hulk surrender or revert to Banner.

Of course, with a more ruthless tactician on the Defenders team (in my mind I was using Obsidian age era Batman or Morrison's Batgod) a case could be developed for different matchups.

Originally posted by riv6672
Dang it, i really AM sleepy today.
I can dispute your match up in one way. How does Batman set up these matches and the Defenders not have a say?

They might have a say in it. I don't see Namor/Hulk/Valkyrie listening to anybody's planning though

I was envisaging it as team Defender goes first (because Bats is an ass like that) and then adapting on the fly.

So team Defender says: we pick Hulk (strongest there is)
JLA: OK, we pick WW.

They might have a say in it. I don't see Namor/Hulk/Valkyrie listening to anybody's planning though

I was envisaging it as team Defender goes first (because Bats is an ass like that) and then adapting on the fly.

So team Defender says: we pick Hulk (strongest there is)
JLA: OK, we pick WW.

Nighthawk will get picked last, just like in HS!

Nah, he'll be doing the picking as the leader. And slowly crying inside as his tactics are wiped off the board by Batman. He wipes his tears with his feathers, but its not enough.

Next time, the Defenders choose Hulk as their leader, as he cannot be any worse.

Ouch!

I'll have to try this again, with the bat bugs worked out, to see if i can get you to go more than 2 rounds!

Round 1
Superman - Daimon Hellstrom
MMH - Dr Strange
Green Lantern - Silver Surfer
Hawkman - Nighthawk
Aquaman - Namor
Wonder Woman - Valkyrie

round 2
WW - Hellstrom, Strange, SS,
Hawkman - Namor

result obvious

Hellstrom Unlike Strange can tank the type of damage Superman can deliver. He can also contend with him physically and as his hell fire is magical and based on the soul can do Supes vast damage (plus his magic is up there with classic Strange)

rest shouldn't need explaination

Eh, i said no subs, but at this point, what the heck!

Originally posted by beatboks
Round 1
Superman - Daimon Hellstrom
MMH - Dr Strange
Green Lantern - Silver Surfer
Hawkman - Nighthawk
Aquaman - Namor
Wonder Woman - Valkyrie

round 2
WW - Hellstrom, Strange, SS,
Hawkman - Namor

result obvious

Hellstrom Unlike Strange can tank the type of damage Superman can deliver. He can also contend with him physically and as his hell fire is magical and based on the soul can do Supes vast damage (plus his magic is up there with classic Strange)

rest shouldn't need explaination
Superman has tanked hellfire from Etrigan with no problems. Also I doubt Hellstrom can take the punishment from Superman in a forum setting. Very few in herald category can.

Originally posted by riv6672
Eh, i said no subs, but at this point, what the heck!

O_o ?? I didn't use any substitutions. All those listed were classic members. The only one who could be questionable is Hellstrom and he was a member of the Defenders over 20 issues before his wife Hellcat from my recollection, and only 9 or 10 after Nighthawk. There doesn't seem to be an issue using them

I said what the heck, didnt i?



But seriously, my choices were the ones to be used. Case in point where in the wide wide world of sports did Hawkman come from?

Originally posted by abhilegend
Superman has tanked hellfire from Etrigan with no problems. Also I doubt Hellstrom can take the punishment from Superman in a forum setting. Very few in herald category can.

Etrigan =/= Hellstrom (in fact well shy) Daimon has used his hell fire to utterly destroy a demon entity sent by his father to take his power. has defeated his father in his won realm with it, and Mephisto in his.His spells have also contained Dormammu, Black Heart and others. That's like comapring a piece of TNT to a A-bomb.

As fir Hellstrom's durability etc. When fighting Mind star he could fall from the stratosphere to earth without severe injury when Mindstar cut him off from his trident. When he was only part demon (before undergoing the rituals to bring his full demon blood to the fore) he had base strength of a 100n Men (40 ton) and with his hellfire could amp that by a factor of ten. full demon blood amped that by quite a bit again. ability the also has the ability to heal himself and others. When Profeet (and immortal seer) sacrificed himself to ensure the destiny occurred Daimon returned him to life with a touch. same for Beast lady friend. Lets also not forget his ability to time manip, when fighting a vampire he made it daylight in the middle of the night and casually travelled through time more than once.

Originally posted by beatboks
Etrigan =/= Hellstrom (in fact well shy) Daimon has used his hell fire to utterly destroy a demon entity sent by his father to take his power. has defeated his father in his won realm with it, and Mephisto in his.His spells have also contained Dormammu, Black Heart and others. He has done all that with Hellfire alone? Maybe if you don't know about Etrigan.

So, lets say about 1000 tons, right? Clark could beat him as a kid going by that strength system.

So, he has some vague HF and can travel through time. How does that prevents him from getting KTFO by a punch to the face?

Originally posted by riv6672
I said what the heck, didnt i?



But seriously, my choices were the ones to be used. Case in point where in the wide wide world of sports did Hawkman come from?

I was trying to think of a JLAer who matched Nighthawk. All I meant was Nighthawk from memory joined in a #15 (might have been a little earlier), Hellstrom in issue #24/5 ish from memory and Hellcat somewhere in the 40's.

I was trying to think of a JLAer who matched Nighthawk. All I meant was Nighthawk from memory joined in a #15 (might have been a little earlier), Hellstrom in issue #24/5 ish from memory and Hellcat somewhere in the 40's.
And all i meant was that when i said classic i meant my choice of classic. The core Defenders plus NH, Val and HC are the classic version, despite who came first.
Kind of like how Cap wasnt an original Avenger but is part of the classic team.

Still, doesnt matter. I can see you've got abhi wound up. Feel free to keep derailing my thread till you realize you arent going to change his mind, get bored, and he claims he's won another debate.

Originally posted by abhilegend
He has done all that with Hellfire alone? Maybe if you don't know about Etrigan.

So, lets say about 1000 tons, right? Clark could beat him as a kid going by that strength system.

So, he has some vague HF and can travel through time. How does that prevents him from getting KTFO by a punch to the face?

yes he has also defeated them with more than that.

There is nothing vague about it, he brings the dead back to life with a touch and can heal himself faster than any healing factor based character in comics. He's also tanked physical bloes of several hundred tons with no effect and tanked energy attaks of high order, and that's not even with his shields that can hold even Dormammu

I'm extrememly familiar with Etrigan, have his entire series and many more of his appearances. Hellstrom has soloed several demon's on Etrigan's level ( all hell heirachy) with very little problem. in Fact he soloed every bloody demon in hell when taking a few souls to heaven to free them from an unjust punishemnt. Hellstrom's power has been stated to be on Dr Strange's level (in classic days at that)

he has alos done more than just travel time he has made time completely change. he was battling the vamoire and night and simply made it day. he can create many duplicates, shrink and grow himself, control the elements, cast powerful spells.

Seriously dude Etrigan <<<<< Hellstrom

Originally posted by riv6672
I can see you've got abhi wound up. Feel free to keep derailing my thread till you realize you arent going to change his mind, get bored, and he claims he's won another debate.

I've yet to see him win a debate ;P
besides Defenders a shite loads better than any JLA line up

*liberally sprays fuel everywhere*

^

Originally posted by beatboks
yes he has also defeated them with more than that. With HELLFIRE? Scans?

That's a pretty broad statement. I don't think he has better HF than Lobo. And Superman has no problem knocking him out. Yeah, I don't think that's his general power level.

So..........he's Etrigan level? You will not believe how many characters have that claim.

Changed night into day? How's that useful against Superman. Spells are fine, but no cigars for you.

Not really. Which top tiers has Hellstrom beaten?

He hasnt lost to any top tiers, either, in that case.

I AM interested in seeing Hellstrom in action, however.......

Originally posted by beatboks
besides Defenders a shite loads better than any JLA line up


LIES!

I'll give you a pass THIS time.

If you say it again, the wrath you receive is on your own head!

I seem to recall Hellstorm losing to Agent Venom.

Originally posted by Khazra Reborn
I seem to recall Hellstorm losing to Agent Venom.

Yeah I guy who's defeated hell lords, sky fathers, and hordes of hell loosing to venom couldn't possibly be the worst PIS ever could it??

@abhi I'm at morning tea at work. I'll load plenty of scans when I get home. Including the one of Hellstroms hellfire destabilizing and threatening the existence of a realm of fire elementals. Etrigans hell fire doesn't compare. We are talking about a demon who when acquired Blue Devils trident stated that with its power he could rule hell ( which he cannot without). His hell fire is beneath that of BD with the trident. Compared to Hellstrom who's trident actually drains hell of power. With his trident he has better hell fire than his father. He's also stated on panel how he was unimpressed by Ghost riders hell fire ( which is equal to etrigan)

Oh boy...!

@abhi actually rather than detail Riv's thread you want to battle zone Superman vs Hellstrom ?? I'll even let you pick the judges

I'd report him for derailing my thread, but you seem to be having fun.
1 2 3 4, i declare a scan war!

Originally posted by beatboks
Yeah I guy who's defeated hell lords, sky fathers, and hordes of hell loosing to venom couldn't possibly be the worst PIS ever could it??

@abhi I'm at morning tea at work. I'll load plenty of scans when I get home. Including the one of Hellstroms hellfire destabilizing and threatening the existence of a realm of fire elementals. Etrigans hell fire doesn't compare. We are talking about a demon who when acquired Blue Devils trident stated that with its power he could rule hell ( which he cannot without). His hell fire is beneath that of BD with the trident. Compared to Hellstrom who's trident actually drains hell of power. With his trident he has better hell fire than his father. He's also stated on panel how he was unimpressed by Ghost riders hell fire ( which is equal to etrigan)
Lots of ABC reasoning there.Originally posted by Khazra Reborn
I seem to recall Hellstorm losing to Agent Venom.
Haha, seriously?Originally posted by beatboks
@abhi actually rather than detail Riv's thread you want to battle zone Superman vs Hellstrom ?? I'll even let you pick the judges
I'm doing a battlezone right now, so I don't think I can do one again atm.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Lots of ABC reasoning there.
Haha, seriously?
I'm doing a battlezone right now, so I don't think I can do one again atm.
There is nothing ABC about its the only low end feat he has and was written by Leob

Reading between the lines looks like running scared guess I would be too

Originally posted by beatboks
There is nothing ABC about its the only low end feat he has and was written by Leob

Reading between the lines looks like running scared guess I would be too


Running scared? Oh, you slay me. How can I BZ against someone who loses to Agent Venom?

Originally posted by abhilegend


Running scared? Oh, you slay me. How can I BZ against someone who loses to Agent Venom?
Well because your chicken I did it in Versus. maybe Lord of brooklyn can come to your aid

Originally posted by beatboks
Well because your chicken I did it in Versus. maybe Lord of brooklyn can come to your aid
Oh, this is just becoming funny. I will honor thy courage!

I see the Superman trolling's spawned a new thread. Myst go see the antics.

Originally posted by riv6672
I see the Superman trolling's spawned a new thread. Myst go see the antics.
Trolling? STFU and GTFO.

Yeah, get out of your own thread!!!

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Yeah, get out of your own thread!!!
Apparently even arguing in favor of Superman is now "Superman trolling."

Apparently denial of trolling is part if your genetic make up.

You contributed nothing to this thread except to start a fight. The person you were baiting didnt seem to mind, and i let it go. Now, not so much. Consider yourself reported.

Originally posted by riv6672
Apparently denial of trolling is part if your genetic make up.

You contributed nothing to this thread except to start a fight. The person you were baiting didnt seem to mind, and i let it go. Now, not so much. Consider yourself reported.
So now you're a racist too?

And I only replied to a poster saying that Hellstrom wouldn't beat Superman and arguing with him like always. Sorry if that hurt your sensible feelings, milord!!

If you really considered me your lord, you wouldnt speak to me the way you do.
I think you're lying.

That's why everyone had you on ignore back on ICT.

Whats that have to do with you calling me your lord?
You can bow to me if you want, but i already reported you, so, that wont help you.

facepalm

Sarcasm really isn't your forte.

ROUND 1
Superman - Silver Surfer
Wonder Woman - Ghost Rider
Flash(Wally) - Hulk
Green Lantern(Hal) - Dr Strange
Batman - Nighthawk
Aquaman - Sub Mariner
Martian Manhunter - Hellstrom

ROUND 2
Silver Surfer, Ghost Rider, Hulk, Dr Strange, Namor, Hellstrom vs Batman

No matter how I crunch the numbers I come out with the JLA winning.

That's "sarcasm really isnt your forte, milord."

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
ROUND 1
Superman - Silver Surfer
Wonder Woman - Ghost Rider
Flash(Wally) - Hulk
Green Lantern(Hal) - Dr Strange
Batman - Nighthawk
Aquaman - Sub Mariner
Martian Manhunter - Hellstrom

ROUND 2
Silver Surfer, Ghost Rider, Hulk, Dr Strange, Namor, Hellstrom vs Batman

No matter how I crunch the numbers I come out with the JLA winning.
Its cool. I appreciate the time you took to respond!

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
ROUND 1
Superman - Silver Surfer
Wonder Woman - Ghost Rider
Flash(Wally) - Hulk
Green Lantern(Hal) - Dr Strange
Batman - Nighthawk
Aquaman - Sub Mariner
Martian Manhunter - Hellstrom

ROUND 2
Silver Surfer, Ghost Rider, Hulk, Dr Strange, Namor, Hellstrom vs Batman

No matter how I crunch the numbers I come out with the JLA winning.

Reported for lowballing Nighthawk.

I'll try some selective picking and see if I can come up with the Defenders winning.

Superman - Thanos
Wonder Woman - Drax (PG)
Flash(Wally) - Silver Surfer
Green Lantern(Hal) - Dr Strange
Batman - Namor
Aquaman - Hulk
Martian Manhunter - Ghost Rider

ROUND 2
Thanos, Drax. Silver Surfer, Dr Strange, Hulk, Ghost Rider vs Batman




No, even cherry picking the teams has the Defenders losing. Mind you, Iron Fist was a Defender... nah, the thread isn't big enough for a Batman/Fist thread.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
ROUND 1
Superman - Silver Surfer
Wonder Woman - Ghost Rider
Flash(Wally) - Hulk
Green Lantern(Hal) - Dr Strange
Batman - Nighthawk
Aquaman - Sub Mariner
Martian Manhunter - Hellstrom

ROUND 2
Silver Surfer, Ghost Rider, Hulk, Dr Strange, Namor, Hellstrom vs Batman

No matter how I crunch the numbers I come out with the JLA winning.
F#$%ing Batgod, I know Strange and Hellstrom cast a spell that opens a vortex to an alternate reality that lets them into the 1960's TV Batman world and return for round 2 with anti bat spray ;D