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Force, sabers, all out

Agen Kolar lol.

Talon doesn't suck that badly

(I'm not saying Kolar sucks), but her force feats outstrip him certainly.
She shouldn't be too far behind Vos

Her saberfeats aren't bad either- She's gotten some good stalemates, did well against Cade (note that when he beats her, it's force, not sabers, every time), and killed Marasiah Fel's master.

Solid sabers and better force are a good combo in a matchup.

So? Kolar stomped Vos.

Talon's stronger than Vos.

Kolar.

People just don't understand that Agen Kolar is just that good. Aside from the Yoda, Mace, Anakin, and Kenobi, he's the best duelist in the Order.

I'd argue Plo as well.

Mace Windu disagrees, bro.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Mace Windu disagrees, bro.
quote?

He called Agen one of the best of the order, and seeing as Mace is an expert swordsman his opinion is worth something. Problem being Vos isn't as powerful of an opponent as Ventress, whom Plo held back with one hand. Plo is likely better but the skill difference between the two is likely marginal at best

So you take in account Kolar's accolades but not Revan's?
PT fan-boy confirmed.

I have no bias to the PT era, and I personally only hold Revan as high as PT era Jedi council members (that's being generous). I have told you this before.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
People just don't understand that Agen Kolar is just that good. Aside from the Yoda, Mace, Anakin, and Kenobi, he's the best duelist in the Order.

Don't forget Kit Fisto. Kit responded to Palpatine, Kolar didn't.


I'd think Plo and Shaak and maybe Luminara as well....


Ultimately, Kolar only has one real good *feat*, the Vos feat.

Originally posted by Q99
Don't forget Kit Fisto. Kit responded to Palpatine, Kolar didn't.


I'd think Plo and Shaak and maybe Luminara as well....


Ultimately, Kolar only has one real good *feat*, the Vos feat.


True, but even that could be circumstantial, seeing as how it was a ploy. Agen didn't know and was fighting for real, but Vos was just trying to make it look good. I'm not saying that Vos is Kolar's equal, but I do believe he's better than what he showed in that confrontation. That beiong said, I would put Kolar behind Yoda, Mace, Anakin, Obi-Wan, and Kit, in terms of dueling abilities.

Originally posted by StarWarPrequals
Originally posted by Kalen Sykes
True, but even that could be circumstantial, seeing as how it was a ploy. Agen didn't know and was fighting for real, but Vos was just trying to make it look good. I'm not saying that Vos is Kolar's equal, but I do believe he's better than what he showed in that confrontation. That beiong said, I would put Kolar behind Yoda, Mace, Anakin, Obi-Wan, and Kit, in terms of dueling abilities.


Based on? Also, I think the quote function messed up on your response.

Since this is turning into a rank the PT duelists.

1. Yoda
2. Mace
3. Anakin
4. Kenobi
5. Plo Koon
6. Shaak Ti
7. Kit Fisto/Ki-Adi Mundi
Then probably Kolar, although Luminara, Tholme, and Eeth Koth definitely rival him.

My ranking's quite similar to Stark's.

And aside from sword level, the force level should still give Talon the edge.

Vs Vao and Sazen, Vs floor

Her lightning kick is probably the most badass thing to come from the Legacy era.

I say Kolar wins and here's why:
He owned Quinlan Vos but was eventually holding back when sparring with him. We know Quinlan had good TK and feats due to him pulling a Vapaad maneuver against Windu and stalemating Sora Bulq for a short period of time.

Kolar is also a master in unarmed combat.Kolar was also able to engage in a fight against a mob of cantina patrons on Nar Shaddada without his lightsaber and without difficulty. He is especially fond of delivering high kicks to his foes.

For force feats, he favors the force push a lot.

Sourcebooks say that Kolar is "celebrated" among the prime of the Jedi. This makes him leagues better than Talon.

Unlike Talon, he does have an impressive skill like I mentioned: stomping Quinlan Vos. Outright stomping Vos is very impressive considering his own feats compared to Vao and Sazen.

Kolar can attack with Force Powers suddenly and without Talon noticing.

Kolar has a great del of resistance to pain, so it's most likely he'd be able to shrug it off and casually tank it if he was stabbed and thrown into a wall like Talon.

Amen. If you guys want to know what he is referring to, it's from an actual debate of Kolar vs Bane on SWF.
I copied it so you can read it here: http://thesithoutcasts.forumotion.com/t201-agen-kolar-flashpoint98-vs-darth-bane-doe-emperordmb

Hopefully this quote alone by the supporter of Kolar should make you want to check it out..****ing hilarious. ^

Yeah that may have been the stupidest debate I ever participated in.

(Replying as-if it was serious, just 'cause).

I'd put them over Vos.

Sazen and Vao are on the Jedi Council's "Send to take out Krayt and his leadership strike team," to Coruscant (along with Cade, Rasi Tuum, and two of the top Imperial Knights since it was a joint mission). Sazen's killed Darth Azard, a sith with both duel feats and force feats. Yadda yadda.


Taking out both of them is better than taking out Vos. Less majorly, she also took out Elke Vetter, Marasiah Fel's master (and ripped info on Marasiah's mission from Elke's mind- Talon does have strong mental force powers too).

Talon definitely has the force edge here.

Originally posted by Q99
I'm... pretty sure they have piles of sith kills, numbers of duels, and in general have been shown to be quite impressive. I'd put them over Vos...

Sazen and Vao are on the Jedi Council's "Send to take out Krayt and his leadership strike team," to Coruscant (along with Cade, Rasi Tuum, and two of the top Imperial Knights since it was a joint mission).

Sazen's killed Darth Azard, a sith with both duel feats and force feats. Yadda yadda.


Taking out both of them is better than taking out just-Vos. Less majorly, she also took out Elke Vetter, Marasiah Fel's master (and ripped info on Marasiah's mission from Elke's mind- Talon does have strong mental force powers too).

Talon definitely has the force edge here.
None of my post was serious. It was all copied from a debate I had with another user regarding Darth Bane vs Agen Kolar. Consider how terrible those arguments in favor of Kolar are when used against someone like Talon, then consider that the guy I was debating with used those same arguments against Bane.

Ant was kind enough to copy the original debate here:
http://thesithoutcasts.forumotion.com/t201-agen-kolar-flashpoint98-vs-darth-bane-doe-emperordmb

He knows, he was simply addressing it for the **** of it.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
He knows, he was simply addressing it for the **** of it.
I quoted that prior to the edit where he points out that he knows it's a joke.

Yea, I posted, realized it sounded like I was taking dmb's joke too seriously, and edited. Just not fast enough.

---

Do we even known Kolar is stronger than Tiin?

Mace Windu suggests that Agen Kolar is the most skilled out of all the Jedi he brought with him to confront Palpatine. Hell, he also suggested that Kit and Saesee were unneeded in arresting Palpatine, and that Kolar alone would suffice as his backup.

Of course, they grossly underestimated Palpatine, but the fact that Mace thought Kolar was not only qualified to take on a Dark Lord more powerful than Dooku, but also that he was more qualified than anyone else in the Order circa Kenobi and Yoda speaks for his skill.

Kolar's domination of a swordsman as able Quinlan only supports Mace's applaud of him, especially because the feat was only replicated by Dooku and Mace himself.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Mace Windu suggests that Agen Kolar is the most skilled out of all the Jedi he brought with him to confront Palpatine. Hell, he also suggested that Kit and Saesee were unneeded in arresting Palpatine, and that Kolar alone would suffice as his backup.

Of course, they grossly underestimated Palpatine, but the fact that Mace thought Kolar was not only qualified to take on a Dark Lord more powerful than Dooku, but also that he was more qualified than anyone else in the Order circa Kenobi and Yoda speaks for his skill.

Kolar's domination of a swordsman as able Quinlan only supports Mace's applaud of him, especially because the feat was only replicated by Dooku and Mace himself.


That's why I think that other than the big 4, Kolar comes in behind Fisto, as far as duelists in the Order. When Kit was nervous about facing Sidious, he wished that Yoda or Obi-Wan were there, too. I think it's a little telling that he wasn't wishing Koon, Shaak Ti, Ki-Adi Mundi, or any others were there. He immediately went to the ones he felt were the best. That's how I saw it, at least.

Again, Mace suggested otherwise.




Shaak Ti even admitted inferiority to all four of the masters that confronted Palpatine.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Again, Mace suggested otherwise.

True. I was mostly going off of Kit's skills in the fight. Whichever version of the fight you look at (movie or novel), Kolar gets taken out at the very beginning, while Kit is the 2nd to last to die. Now that I think about it, though, Sidious may have taken Kolar out early because he was perceived as a bigger threat...

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Mace Windu suggests that Agen Kolar is the most skilled out of all the Jedi he brought with him to confront Palpatine. Hell, he also suggested that Kit and Saesee were unneeded in arresting Palpatine, and that Kolar alone would suffice as his backup.

Of course, they grossly underestimated Palpatine, but the fact that Mace thought Kolar was not only qualified to take on a Dark Lord more powerful than Dooku, but also that he was more qualified than anyone else in the Order circa Kenobi and Yoda speaks for his skill.


I'd say that's a combination of, one, really not knowing what they were up against, and two, Windu probably figuring any Council-level backup was fine.

When push came to shove, Mace's impressions didn't live up to the results.


Maybe Agen just spars harder than the others or something, so he came across as stronger when really the likes of Fisto could go higher in a pinch.

Refer below: (This post was messed up)

That's a weakly concieved argument, Q99. I expect better from you.

Even if you choose to blatantly disregard the credit that Mace awards to Kolar, I've already mentioned that his performance against Quinlan Vos alone backs up his hype. It actually directly parallels Dooku's own performance against him:

Both easily repel Quinlan's initial attack, then kick him in the face:
http://i39.servimg.com/u/f39/18/12/41/88/kolar_10.jpg

Both then slash Quinlan in the back, and then in Kolar's case he flees and in Dooku's he attempts to attack once more but fails:
http://i39.servimg.com/u/f39/18/12/41/88/dooku_10.jpg

You could argue Dooku was holding back against Vos, I'd counter the same can be said for Agen, who in the panel where he slashes him in the back says that he could easily have taken his limbs if he wished.

Also, there isn't much time between the two fights, and Vos doesn't officially accept Dooku's training until after their battle, so it's an indisputably fair comparison. Agen, based on their respective performances against Vos, should at least be comparable to Dooku in terms of skill.

And again, Mace backs this up by suggesting that not only is Agen Kolar the most skilled of a group of history's best swordsmen, but also suggests he's qualified to take on a Dark Lord more powerful than Dooku even without Kit and Saesee. Other than the big four, (Kenobi/Anakin/Mace/Yoda) Kolar is the most skilled swordsman in the Order, I have no doubts about this.

Dooku's smile is really creepy.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
That's a weakly concieved argument, Q99. I expect better from you.

Even if you choose to blatantly disregard the credit that Mace awards to Kolar, I've already mentioned that his performance against Quinlan Vos alone backs up his hype. It actually directly parallels Dooku's own performance against him:

Both easily repel Quinlan's initial attack, then kick him in the face:
http://i39.servimg.com/u/f39/18/12/41/88/kolar_10.jpg

Both then slash Quinlan in the back, and then in Kolar's case he flees and in Dooku's he attempts to attack once more but fails:
http://i39.servimg.com/u/f39/18/12/41/88/dooku_10.jpg

You could argue Dooku was holding back against Vos, I'd counter the same can be said for Agen, who in the panel where he slashes him in the back says that he could easily have taken his limbs if he wished.

Also, there isn't much time between the two fights, and Vos doesn't officially accept Dooku's training until after their battle, so it's an indisputably fair comparison. Agen, based on their respective performances against Vos, should at least be comparable to Dooku in terms of skill.

And again, Mace backs this up by suggesting that not only is Agen Kolar the most skilled of a group of history's best swordsmen, but also suggests he's qualified to take on a Dark Lord more powerful than Dooku even without Kit and Saesee. Other than the big four, (Kenobi/Anakin/Mace/Yoda) Kolar is the most skilled swordsman in the Order, I have no doubts about this.



Nicely put. The only thing I would add to that is that while Kolar may not have been giving it his all against Vos, the same can be said for Quinlan. Also, I'm not sure Kolar can be put on Dooku's level of swordsmanship, just based off of those two fights.

It's not the same at all. Quinlan by this point was already falling to the Dark Side, and while he advocated that he'd prefer not to kill Agen, he didn't intend to kill Dooku either.



Maybe not, but it's a valid comparison and nothing contradicts it in the slightest.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
It's not the same at all. Quinlan by this point was already falling to the Dark Side, and while he advocated that he'd prefer not to kill Agen, he didn't intend to kill Dooku either.


How do you know he was falling at that time? Windu and Yoda later confirm that it was all a ruse to get Vos recruited into Dooku's faction? Yes, he later did fall, but at the time he was still a Jedi, albeit one that preferred the shadows. Agen was deliberately kept in the dark about the plan, so his responses and attitude would be genuine.

Yes, nothing contradicts Dooku and Kolar being in the same teir, but the sample size is very small. If the artist had drawn that fight in a different way, would you still have the same opinion?

Luke serving Palpatine in Dark Empire was also intended to be a ruse.



It's true that the sample size isn't large, but no matter which way you look it's still ultimately supported.

For instance, Saesee Tiin, who was implied was an inferior swordsman to Kolar, was capable of dueling Mace Windu to a draw in a sparring match between the two. While this does not mean Tiin was necessarily equivalent to Mace as a lightsaber duelist, it does support the insinuation that a duelist superior to Saesee could possibly be approaching Dooku and Mace.

Another example is Kit Fisto. He was able to solidly overmatch General Grievous, who has both challenged Dooku in their sparring sessions and fought Mace to a standstill at one point in time. Earlier in the Clone Wars, Obi-Wan openly admitted inferiority to Fisto after a sparring match between the two. Again, it supports that Kolar, who is even more talented as a swordsman than Kit, could definitely be approaching the higher tier duelists.



Probably not, but the comparative nature of the two duels made it much easier to compare them realistically.

I'm not claiming Kolar's still is equivalent to Dooku's or even to Obi-Wan's, but he's definitely just around the corner. People tend to adopt the misconception that the main characters are on a league above their contemporaries, which is simply unsupported.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
That's a weakly concieved argument, Q99. I expect better from you.

Even if you choose to blatantly disregard the credit that Mace awards to Kolar, I've already mentioned that his performance against Quinlan Vos alone backs up his hype. It actually directly parallels Dooku's own performance against him:

Vos, at that point simply isn't that good. To quote Dooku, his dueling skills around then were "appalling."


I mean, I consider him reasonable at that point, despite Dooku's words, beating him that much is still impressive, but I'd expect Tiin, Fisto, Ki-Adi, Plo Koon, and such to be able to do the same thing. He didn't have his months of training under Dooku yet, and that helped him improve significantly. His vaapad improved, he gained more experience, his own showings improved...


Beating Vos-pre-Dooku-training does not put Kolar around the top of the Council rankings. It puts him at, well, a solid combat councilor! Mid-council, I'd say. And that's his highest positive feat. Throw in the negative feat, and there you go.


So I fully accept that feat, I just point out the circumstances. Sure, it's good, but good that a number of other good characters could also do.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Luke serving Palpatine in Dark Empire was also intended to be a ruse.



It's true that the sample size isn't large, but no matter which way you look it's still ultimately supported.

For instance, Saesee Tiin, who was implied was an inferior swordsman to Kolar, was capable of dueling Mace Windu to a draw in a sparring match between the two. While this does not mean Tiin was necessarily equivalent to Mace as a lightsaber duelist, it does support the insinuation that a duelist superior to Saesee could possibly be approaching Dooku and Mace.

Another example is Kit Fisto. He was able to solidly overmatch General Grievous, who has both challenged Dooku in their sparring sessions and fought Mace to a standstill at one point in time. Earlier in the Clone Wars, Obi-Wan openly admitted inferiority to Fisto after a sparring match between the two. Again, it supports that Kolar, who is even more talented as a swordsman than Kit, could definitely be approaching the higher tier duelists.



Probably not, but the comparative nature of the two duels made it much easier to compare them realistically.

I'm not claiming Kolar's still is equivalent to Dooku's or even to Obi-Wan's, but he's definitely just around the corner. People tend to adopt the misconception that the main characters are on a league above their contemporaries, which is simply unsupported.


I know that the ruse ultimately failed, since Vos did fall. I was merely pointing out that neither combatant was giving their all (Agen trying to bring in Vos, and Quinlan escaping but trying to make it look convincing).

Where is it stated that Tiin dueled Windu to a draw? I'm not saying you're wrong, I just only recall Qui-Gon Jinn dueling him to a draw, with Yoda and Dooku besting him.

I wasn't trying to accuse you of claiming Kolar is Dooku's equal. In fact, I was just getting some clarification, so I could avoid those same misconceptions you were talking about. I do agree that Kolar is regarded as one of the top duelists in the Order.

Even if that is true, I'd argue you are mistaken about your central point. Vos would probably not have killed Kolar given the chance, but it doesn't mean he was holding back. The same goes for Kolar, as well. The difference is that Kolar completely dominated him regardless, and was in a position where he "could have" killed him if he wished, unlike Vos. Again, I was drawing a comparison between Dooku and Kolar, and Quinlan wasn't attempting to kill Dooku either. This point is irrelevant.

As I recall, the part about Qui-Gon being able to duel Mace to a draw was nothing more than a rumor. I wouldn't necessarily put it past him, though. As for Saesee, it's pretty undeniable though:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/4/48954/2206972-new_picture__2_.jpg

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Even if that is true, I'd argue you are mistaken about your central point. Vos would probably not have killed Kolar given the chance, but it doesn't mean he was holding back. The same goes for Kolar, as well. The difference is that Kolar completely dominated him regardless, and was in a position where he "could have" killed him if he wished, unlike Vos. Again, I was drawing a comparison between Dooku and Kolar, and Quinlan wasn't attempting to kill Dooku either. This point is irrelevant.

As I recall, the part about Qui-Gon being able to duel Mace to a draw was nothing more than a rumor. I wouldn't necessarily put it past him, though. As for Saesee, it's pretty undeniable though:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/4/48954/2206972-new_picture__2_.jpg


Thanks for that reference. I had forgotten about that comic.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
As I recall, the part about Qui-Gon being able to duel Mace to a draw was nothing more than a rumor. I wouldn't necessarily put it past him, though. As for Saesee, it's pretty undeniable though:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/4/48954/2206972-new_picture__2_.jpg

haermm

Sparring = dueling to a draw. Lmao, ok.

Originally posted by Nephthys
haermm

Sparring = dueling to a draw. Lmao, ok.
Especially when having a convo while sparring.

Erm, wut?

You mean like they do 90% of the fights in the Star Wars mythos?

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Even if that is true, I'd argue you are mistaken about your central point. Vos would probably not have killed Kolar given the chance, but it doesn't mean he was holding back. The same goes for Kolar, as well. The difference is that Kolar completely dominated him regardless, and was in a position where he "could have" killed him if he wished, unlike Vos. Again, I was drawing a comparison between Dooku and Kolar, and Quinlan wasn't attempting to kill Dooku either. This point is irrelevant.

As I recall, the part about Qui-Gon being able to duel Mace to a draw was nothing more than a rumor. I wouldn't necessarily put it past him, though. As for Saesee, it's pretty undeniable though:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/4/48954/2206972-new_picture__2_.jpg


Sparring does not equal = sparring on even ground with someone.

Mace also sparred with Quinlan Vos, I suppose that would make Agen approaching Mace level in terms of dueling, except...Sidious downed him quicker than a Krayt Dragon could down a Bantha.

Quinlan was curbed in his sparring match with Mace...

Also, addressing that singular point is meaningless. It's not even part of my argument, it simply backs up that it's a feasible claim.

If you deny Tiin would be capabie of it, just look to Sora Bulq, then.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Quinlan was curbed in his sparring match with Mace...

Curbed? He got force pushed after he used a Vaapad manuver.




Sora Bulq is a master of the seven forms, coinventor of Vaapad and likely has a ton of experience sparring with Mace. He has far superior accolades than Tiin. Even if Kolar was on par with Bulq he got wtfpwned by Dooku.

Agen Kolar is one of the greatest bladesbeings in history, as well as a peer of Mace Windu. His performance against Quinlan mirrored Dooku's almost perfectly. He was considered not only to be qualified to take on a Sith Lord more powerful than the Count, but also to be the best of the Jedi remaining in the Order after Kenobi's departure. Shaak Ti openly admits inferiority to a team of which he is the best of.

I see absolutely no reason for Sora to be classified as Agen's superior. Even if Sora were Kolar's equal my point would be the same, though. Bulq is a peer of Mace, this is a well known fact within the Order and was demonstrated in their battle. Dooku being able to dismiss him with the Force doesn't contradict that.

Kolar is in the same position regardless. He, and the rest of Mace's team, are severely underestimated. This has nothing to do with the PT and other eras like many claim, it has to do with the PT and itself.

Shaak Ti doesn't admit inferiority, bro.

She absolutely does.

"Anakin, why? These Masters are the best of the Order. What can you possibly do?"

That's not really admitting inferiority. She doesn't think *Anakin* is needed for the job, and we know he's a good deal stronger than any save maybe Windu.

She seems to think that 4 masters who could be included in a wider category that she considers 'the best,' but does not necessarily include *all* of the best, is enough, and there's really no need to offer any more aid.



Yea, because Quinlan at that point simply did not require too high a level to beat up! Quinlan got better. He trained in Vaapad more, he trained under Dooku, etc..

Tiin could've kicked his ass too, as could Shaak, Fisto, Ki....



There's also the matter of Kolar's overwhelming loss vs Sidious, and his inferior performance to Fisto.

If you're trying to imply that Kolar is at or near Dooku level, I say there's no way Dooku would've gone like that. Heck, Maul didn't go down like that.

By feats, Agen is inferior to Dooku. His only positive feat of note is beating a Jedi Master who was, at that point, definitely not council level.

Agen has not just a positive feat, beating Quinlan, which establishes a minimum level of his power, but also a negative feat, getting chumped by Sidious, which establishes a maximum power, and a maximum power below anyone who would not get so chumped by Sids.

Originally posted by Q99
That's not really admitting inferiority. She doesn't think *Anakin* is needed for the job, and we know he's a good deal stronger than any save maybe Windu.

She seems to think that 4 masters who could be included in a wider category that she considers 'the best,' but does not necessarily include *all* of the best, is enough, and there's really no need to offer any more aid.


Agen has not just a positive feat, beating Quinlan, which establishes a minimum level of his power, but also a negative feat, getting chumped by Sidious, which establishes a maximum power, and a maximum power below anyone who would not get so chumped by Sids.


1) It heavily suggests that she agreed with Mace and the rest of the council, that the best remaining should go up against Sidious, which didn't include herself, who also happened to be one of the council members left remaining. We all know the reason they didn't pick Anakin for the mission, which wasn't for the same reason she wasn't.

2) To be fair, Lucas and Mcdiarmid made it pretty clear that pretty much all jedi not named Yoda and Mace are chumps compared to Sidious. Without the full benefits of vaapad, even Mace was being overwhelmed and forced into the main office during the beginning of the fight.

Also, the only reason you're making such a fuss, is because Palpatine's feat is 10 times better than Krayt cutting down the IGs. You want so badly for Krayt to be on Sidious's level, which he doesn't even approach.

As for Maul, I'm not sure why you keep referencing that fight. He really didn't last that long against Sidious, considering the circumstances.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Agen Kolar is one of the greatest bladesbeings in history, as well as a peer of Mace Windu. His performance against Quinlan mirrored Dooku's almost perfectly. He was considered not only to be qualified to take on a Sith Lord more powerful than the Count, but also to be the best of the Jedi remaining in the Order after Kenobi's departure. Shaak Ti openly admits inferiority to a team of which he is the best of.

He's not a peer of Mace Windu. Also Kolar isn't the only one who gets hype.

"There is an understated elegance in Obi-Wan Kenobi's lightsaber
technique, one that is quite unlike the feel one might get from
the other great swordsbeings of the Jedi Order. He lacks entirely
the flash, the pure bold elan of an Anakin Skywalker; there is nowhere in him the penumbral ferocity of a Mace Windu or a Depa
Billaba nor the stylish grace of a Shaak Ti or a Dooku, and he is
nothing resembling the whirlwind of destruction that Yoda can
become."

By this logic, Mace and Depa are on similar level of swordsmanship (which Mace himself admits), and Shaak Ti and Dooku are on a similar level. So boom I guess Shaak Ti is Dooku level.




He has far more hype. And Dooku fending him and Tholme off are more than enough to dismiss him as Mace or Dooku's equal.



Kolar isn't Mace level for ****'s sake. He is one of the most gifted swordsmen in galactic history, no doubt about that, but he doesn't rival Mace or even Kenobi as a swordsman.

I'd Agen rivals Kenobi.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I'd Agen rivals Kenobi.

He doesn't. Agen would never ever under any circumstances be able to fight off Savage and Maul, ever.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
He doesn't. Agen would never ever under any circumstances be able to fight off Savage and Maul, ever.


If they weren't trying to kill him, and if Maul still had those awkward, bulky legs, it's possible.

Ventress has fought off both Anakin and Kenobi more than once.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
If they weren't trying to kill him, and if Maul still had those awkward, bulky legs, it's possible.

No way. Savage alone is solidly above Kit Fisto.



Ventress never cut off either of their arms or broke their legs though did she?

Originally posted by Lord Stark
No way. Savage alone is solidly above Kit Fisto.



Ventress never cut off either of their arms or broke their legs though did she?


I think Savage would take a majority against Fisto due to his physical strength and force power, but not by virtue of having more skill and speed.

Because Anakin and Kenobi are more skilled than Savage. Plus they had Kenobi in a position in which they thought they had him at their mercy, which gave Kenobi the opportunity to focus on Savage's weakened knee. Anakin and Kenobi are more focused duelists, who don't rely mostly on their strength to overpower their opponents. But it doesn't change the fact that she has held them both off at the same time. In fact, she could have likely killed Kenobi in her last fight against them had Anakin not been there.

Don't worry Q, I still love you.

@Q99, You have argued up and down, in the past, that Krayt rivaled Sidious. Quite recently, TBH.

All the council members sent to arrest Palpatine were all high level, according to Mace, Shaak Ti, Kenobi and Yoda.

Also I was referring to Maul's one on one with Sidious. However, I agree that Maul is better than Fisto, but by your logic of him not being on the defensive with less support, would suggest he is better than Windu, who was forced on the defensive until the end of the fight.

Again, why are you referencing that fight when Sidious wasn't aiming to kill Maul?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
@Q99, You have argued up and down, in the past, that Krayt rivaled Sidious. Quite recently, TBH.

Uh, no, not really. I have argued he could put up a fight against Sidious, but that's different, there's a number of people who could put up a fight and lose. And Krayt would lose, no question.

If you've thought I think that Krayt could do more than 'put up a good fight,' you're incorrect.





But, even looking at their performances, there's different levels between them.

It may be their fellows were simply overestimated them for whatever reason, but the fact is there was a performance gap between them and Fisto- and if you're weaker than Fisto, then you aren't High Council level in my view.


The fact is, between Tiin and Agen, neither actually has a feat that requires high council skill and they also compare unfavorable to Kit Fisto in a side-by-side battle against the same foe.






Windu actually pushed onto the offensive, on his own, beyond what both brothers together could manage. Maul and Savage when working together were able to do some work, but not what Windu managed to accomplish.

So no, not 'by my logic,' unless one chops off the end of the fight.


You really aren't good at this 'making my opinions up' stuff.




He was certainly aiming to defeat Maul. He was also aiming to kill Savage, yet only once Savage was alone did the difference become so big that he could casually do so.

Originally posted by Q99
Uh, no, not really.


Are we lying now?

You've asserted Krayt was on par with Sidious, and concluded that it was logical. You have also made direct comparisons to his fight against the IKs to Palpatine's fight against the council members.

If you have changed your views since then, there's nothing wrong with that, but don't call me a liar when you know good and well what you said.



Originally posted by Q99
The fact is, between Tiin and Agen, neither actually has a feat that requires high council skill and they also compare unfavorable to Kit Fisto in a side-by-side battle against the same foe.


Kit blocked a few blows from Palpatine, who was engaging Windu at the exact same time. It could be argued that Fisto had more time to put up a defense, considering he was the third to be attacked, and that the first two had their sabers in a position to strike at Sidious instead of attempting to block his attack.

As NewGuy pointed out, Agen was implied to being the best out of the three, considering he was the first person Windu had in mind to face Sidious.



Originally posted by Q99
Windu actually pushed onto the offensive, on his own, beyond what both brothers together could manage. Maul and Savage when working together were able to do some work, but not what Windu managed to accomplish.


Your argument was, that Maul did very well because he wasn't forced on the defensive with less support. That logic can be applied to Windu as well, given that Windu entered the fight with far more support and was force on the defensive until the end of the fight. He didn't accomplish anything until the superconductive loop of vapaad was fully completed, which by your logic, without that particular benefit of vapaad, Maul is better than Windu.

Furthermore, Palpatine went about each fight very differently. He wasn't fighting aggressively with the bros, and allowed them to initiate the saber duel and make their first move; whereas with the council members, he was far more aggressive, attacked first, and went straight for the kill.



Originally posted by Q99
You really aren't good at this 'making my opinions up' stuff.


I'm very good at remembering the arguments of ones I have debated with, and I'm also good at turning ones logic against them.




Originally posted by Q99
He was certainly aiming to defeat Maul.


Aiming to defeat is different than aiming to kill.

Hell, even during their one on one when Maul was bathed in pure rage, he barely lasted a little over 20 seconds against a Sidious who was holding back. Considering those circumstances, Sidious quickly ended the fight.

In case you don't know, let me explain how rage can enhance a force users performance. Anakin was able to overpower Dooku in a saber duel with his rage; Ventress was able to overpower both Skywalker and Kenobi in a force choke with her rage; Savage was able to overpower both Dooku and Ventress in a force choke, and then proceeded to send them flying against the wall of Dooku's ship via rage, which eventually forced Dooku to flee from the fight; when AOTC Kenobi focused his rage on Maul, he momentarily gained a brief advantage despite being leagues below the sith lord.

With those examples being said, all rage did for Maul in his one on one with Sidious, was allow him to last a little over 20 seconds against Sidious, who still was holding back and not trying to kill Maul. Again, considering those circumstances, Maul didn't last that long that long. Even when analyzing Sidious one on one with Maul, he wasn't as aggressive as he was against the council members. He laughed his ass off while Maul watched his brother die, proceeded to taunt Maul about being replaced, and then just stood there and allowed Maul to come at him with everything he had.

Sidious' entire battle with the brothers served to fulfill his amusement, as evident just from watching the fight itself, along with Maul's musing in Shadow Conspiracy that he sensed a terrible pleasure in Sidious, and Filoni's statement that Palpatine was enjoying the fight.

I doubt Sidious could afford to mess around and enjoy his fight with all 4 council members without endangering his own life, which is why he went straight for the kill during the initial part of the fight.


Originally posted by Q99
He was also aiming to kill Savage.


He was also aiming to kill Luke, but was taking his time in doing so, because he was getting pleasure in seeing Luke suffer. When Sidious gets a pleasure out of something he has consistently shown to prolong the situation, which was the case during his battle against the bros.


Originally posted by Q99
yet only once Savage was alone did the difference become so big that he could casually do so.


If Sidious can kill two council members before Mace + Kit could do a thing about it, he could have disposed of Savage any time he wanted. You could see Sidious was handling them both at the same time casually, blocking and evading their attacks, while landing multiple of his own physical attacks. But by your logic, since they weren't being forced on the defensive, means they were doing well. Even during his one on one with Savage, he never even force Savage on the defensive.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Are we lying now?

You've asserted Krayt was on par with Sidious, and concluded that it was logical. You have also made direct comparisons to his fight against the IKs to Palpatine's fight against the council members.

If you have changed your views since then, there's nothing wrong with that, but don't call me a liar when you know good and well what you said.



Pff, you may be lying, but I'm not.


I have compared them because they are similar in type, but they are not the same in magnitude. 3 council members > 4 Imperial Knights.

"Hey, what are good examples of characters blitzing entire groups of masters?" I can think of.... two examples of this being done. It's hardly odd that the two get compared.



You can't make me into the strawman you're projecting.


If you sincerely have been misunderstanding me for some time then.... sorry, but that's still on you.






Arguably.

But still, while it's *possible* Kit survived the longest out of circumstances, there's the other matter that the others still have inferior feats.

Kit Fisto has his feats against Grievous, which is better than any combat Agen Kolar has shown, period.

'They maybe possibly could be stronger' doesn't change that Fisto is still in possession of the higher feats.




Remember Agen from the Quinlan Vos comic? He's one of the most staunch about hunting down darksiders. It may not have been because of *power* that he came to mind first, and more because Agen is, out of several strong fighters, the one who'd want it most.




Except while he started with more support, 2/3rds of it was gone before they could offer *any* support, and the last of it stayed around for just 2-3 blows. Savage stayed around for a good deal longer.

So Windu effectively had much more support, and support that certainly did more supporting.





You should stop saying 'by your logic'. You're using your logic, which doesn't actually seem to be very good at modeling mine


Once it was one on one, Windu held out defensively until he was able to use an ability he, gasp, had in his arsenal to win. Once it was one on one, Sidious pushed Maul until he was down.







Hey, you've failed at both here. You've mistaken 'comparing two feats of similar type but different level' for saying they're the same, and you also keep on having to leave out parts of the fights to try and make your crude approximation of my logic to try and fit your conclusions.

You aren't that good at either. At least not with me.





Unless, of course, landing multiple physical attacks on them is a different sign of having an advantage. Which it is.

Again, you are bad at trying to model my logic. You keep on having to leave out parts of the fight to try and force it in, and that doesn't work.


However, I will also note it wasn't all that casual all the time- they landed two physical attacks on him during the fight. He landed more, and far better, attacks, so he had the clear edge, but they were not simply being toyed with the whole time.


I will also note the reason the creator said they lasted longer is because they were better. So there's that too.



.... he literally turned off his sabers and danced around Savage's attacks. Then hit him with a physical attack so hard Savage just stood there stunned until he was killed. Which was the second physical attack strong enough to knock Savage back Sidious had landed in a very, very brief fight.


That's better than forcing someone on the defensive.


With all the attacks Sidious was landing, I'd say it's fair to say that Savage wasn't on the defense more because Sidious was simply able to get past his defense so easily.

Enough with the Agen was the first Mace wanted to take. Its fanfiction. In the ROTS novel Kit, Saesee, and Shaak Ti are all offworld when they make that statement.

His only other choices of good fighters were Anakin (obviously not), Shaak-Ti (who was left to guard the temple iirc) and Drallig (lmao).

Also Windu was a moron for not at least contacting Yoda or having someone ready to spread the word to the Republic and Jedi.

Originally posted by Q99
Pff, you may be lying, but I'm not.


http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f86/t591180.html


You disagreed with NewGuy's claim that Krayt wasn't a peer of Luke.

Also, to quote you: "How can one be a clear peer of Luke but not Palpatine?"


Me (in this thread):

You (in this thread):


Am I lying?


Originally posted by Q99
If you sincerely have been misunderstanding me for some time then.... sorry, but that's still on you.


Nope, you've outright argued that Krayt is a peer of Sidious, which basically means he rivals him. If that's not what you meant, then you shouldn't have said it nor argued it.


Originally posted by Q99
But still, while it's *possible* Kit survived the longest out of circumstances, there's the other matter that the others still have inferior feats.

Not really. Casually stomping Vos while only trying to apprehend him, is comparable to Kit's feat.



Originally posted by Q99
Kit Fisto has his feats against Grievous, which is better than any combat Agen Kolar has shown, period.


Probably. But you always use some of Krayt's non-combat feats in vs threads as a way of proving that some of his non-combat related feats suggest he has tremendous raw power. I could make a similar case regarding Tiin's out of combat feats, such as navigating a ship through hyperspace with the force alone, being implied as having greater raw power than Windu on account of throwing a battle droid farther, on top of being stated as having one of the strongest force abilities of all jedi in the order.


Originally posted by Q99
Except while he started with more support, 2/3rds of it was gone before they could offer *any* support, and the last of it stayed around for just 2-3 blows. Savage stayed around for a good deal longer.


You don't think the time it took for Sidious to cut down the first two masters with one blow each, didn't give Mace and Fisto any support? It should have at least gave Mace the advantage of putting Sidious on the defensive, instead of being forced on it.


Originally posted by Q99
So Windu effectively had much more support, and support that certainly did more supporting.


What?


Originally posted by Q99
Once it was one on one, Windu held out defensively until he was able to use an ability he, gasp, had in his arsenal to win. Once it was one on one, Sidious pushed Maul until he was down.


It's only an arsenal when facing dark siders, so by your logic, without that certain advantage Mace had against Sidious, Maul is a better duelist on account of not being forced on the defensive.


Originally posted by Q99
You aren't that good at either. At least not with me.



Especially with you.



Originally posted by Q99
Unless, of course, landing multiple physical attacks on them is a different sign of having an advantage. Which it is.


Yeah, that was kind of my point.



Originally posted by Q99
Again, you are bad at trying to model my logic. You keep on having to leave out parts of the fight to try and force it in, and that doesn't work.


What part did I leave out?



Originally posted by Q99
However, I will also note it wasn't all that casual all the time- they landed two physical attacks on him during the fight. He landed more, and far better, attacks, so he had the clear edge, but they were not simply being toyed with the whole time.


You mean the attack Savage landed while Sidious was in a very confined area, with no room to fall back on, other than over the balcony? The same attack Savage just so happened to land when Sidious was just standing there, pointing his saber at Maul, and smiling like a madman? The attack was landed due to Sidious not taking the fight seriously (as evident just by watching that particular sequence alone), not because Savage was just that good. If you want to ignore the circumstance, and suggest that Savage is better than the council members based on that one physical hit, then it would also suggest he is better than Maul, considering Maul was unable to land any physical hits on Sidious, until he was goaded into an enhanced rage.


Originally posted by Q99
I will also note the reason the creator said they lasted longer is because they were better. So there's that too.


No, it wasn't, otherwise he wouldn't have depicted Sidious has trolling them, and making the statement that Sidious was enjoying the fight. Sidious wasn't depicted as having the same demeanor with the council members, therefore the creators remark is irrelevant when it comes to a hypothetical vs match where context is to be considered.

It's like saying AOTC Kenobi was better than TCW season 6 Kenobi, because he did better and wasn't kicked left and right by Dooku despite going up against Dooku on his own during the fight on Geonosis. However, if context is to be considered, Dooku wasn't taking Kenobi seriously on Geonosis, and therefore Kenobi lasted longer and wasn't being kicked around like some weak feeb.


Originally posted by Q99
he literally turned off his sabers


He turned off his sabers during the two on one. He simply left them off when Savage got back up and came at him


Originally posted by Q99
and danced around Savage's attacks.


Similar to how he was doing during the two on one.


Originally posted by Q99
Then hit him with a physical attack so hard Savage just stood there stunned until he was killed.


Similar to how he hit Savage with a physical attack so hard that it sent him flying during the two on one. Both cases Sidious had his back towards Savage before making the physical attack, except when he was facing them both at once, he deactivated his sabers to do the unnecessary fancy stunt.


Originally posted by Q99
Which was the second physical attack strong enough to knock Savage back Sidious had landed in a very, very brief fight.



He also landed two physical attacks on Savage and one on Maul during the very, very brief two on one outside of the palace. Except the last physical attack he used on Savage during their two on one was a more powerful one than the one used during the one on one; not to mention a more unnecessary one, considering he shut off his sabers and did a complete back flip despite Maul being right in front of him. Again, at no point was Sidious shown to take that entire fight seriously, until a rage enhanced Maul landed a kick on him, and even then, Sidious felt that he had to end the fight by proving he was superior in strength instead of just using the force to his advantage.



Originally posted by Q99
That's better than forcing someone on the defensive.


Agreed, which is why not forcing Maul on the defensive, isn't an indication of Maul being that good. If that's not what you meant to suggest, then why bring up Maul not being forced on the defensive as a way of comparing him to the B-Team (considering Sidious wasn't even fighting Maul and Savage offensively, nor was he fighting as aggressively as he usually does, nor was he even trying to kill Maul)?


Originally posted by Q99
With all the attacks Sidious was landing, I'd say it's fair to say that Savage wasn't on the defense more because Sidious was simply able to get past his defense so easily.


Savage wasn't on the defense because Sidious wasn't fighting offensively. This was the case throughout the entire duel despite the fact that Sidious was dominating the entire time. Which goes back to one of my original points: Maul not being forced on the defensive doesn't suggest he is just that good anymore than it would suggest Savage was just that good during his one on one with Sidious. Sidious simply wasn't fighting offensively throughout the fight. Therefore, trying to compare the bros to the council members based on their performances against Sidious when Sidious treated both fights very differently, is a very bad way of gauging a difference between them. It's a very, very weak and lazy analysis.