Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Sabers only match between two of the Jedi order's finest and two powerful Sith lords.

Extensive analyses welcome from all posters.

the only thing that will need extensively analyzed is Kit Fisto and Agen Kolars corpses when the two sith are done with them

Actually, in a contest of skill with a blade, Team 1 has a promising chance.

Malgus alone shows more effectiveness than either of team 1.... I don't think he could solo but neither Fisto nor Agen are taking him 1-1

I agree with Bantha on this one.

How do you figure? Everyone that Malgus has overcome in lightsaber combat are significantly inferior to the two masters you claim can't overcome him.

Kao Cen Darach? Nothing suggests he's as able as Cin Drallig, whom both of Malgus's foes are superior to.

Ven Zallow? His feats and accolades are almost identical to that of Qui-Gon Jinn, who again is inferior to Agen and Kit.

Aryn Leneer? Well for one thing, he was unable to best her in a duel. Secondly, her only feat of skill is her performance against Malgus himself, so I'm not sure how you plan to call stalemating her as impressive for the false Emperor.

Fisto's best showings are against Magnaguards and beating a weakened version of Kenobi in a practice match. While they have comparable speed to a force user, Malgus is stronger physically than them and his blows were able to rack Leneer, he smashed a marble table, and he had enough power to send Zallow through rubble.

Fisto lacks any real strength feats to suggest he can hold off an offense, and Shii cho isn't helping him against a guy whose demonstrated as much acrobatics as him.

Kun and Kolar might be interesting though

Kao took on Vindican and Malgus at the same time and landed a decisive blow on vindican. Even though its a weaker version of Malgus that is far better than either Fisto or Kolar could do.

Just because Malgus isn't god Malgus at the time he fought the others doesn't mean he sucks. He ran through Jedi knights like they were nothing and Ven Zallow was said to be one of the greatest in the order at the time.

Also being identical to Jinn is not a bad thing, Jinn is a bamph duelist.

You mean, right before Malgus stomped Kao by himself?

Defeating a featless Sith Lord is definitely not far better than the accomplishments of Kit and Agen lmfao.



So if you can't defeat two of the most skilled swordsmen in the history of the mythos, that means you have to suck? Get your head out of your ass, man.



So was Qui-Gon, and both of the Jedi he faces now.



It's not a bad thing, overcoming Zallow remains to be Malgus's most impressive feat.

I don't know why you can't wrap your head around the fact that these two are also bamf duelists. Everything Jinn has done, they've done better bro.

Is it really all that different from beating droids, Magna guards, and utterly struggling against a force sensitive of comparable skill to Malgus (Ventress) in the case of Fisto? Yeah Darach is featless, but Kit's best showings are against droids that have been dismissed by even weaker swordsmen than him i,e Shaak Ti. Kolar likewise just kicked Vos in the head, how exactly does that compare to Kun smashing Vodo into the ground?


Should be good though. Fisto was incredibly fast, and can likely press Exar with his Shii cho to Kun's saber staff.

1.Yea Vindican was featless but Kao defeated him while holding off Malgus. Also being featless doesn't mean you suck, it just means he wasn't in any stories that got exposure, and from what was seen in the trailer, he wasn't a bad duelist.

2. What are you even saying?

3. Fisto and Kolar are far out shined by so many of there compatriots, and I don't think if Malgus was to invade the PT temple he would specifically hunt down Fisto or Kolar for a duel because they are believed to be that skilled among the order. Kenobi, and Mace maybe.

4.I would put Zallow over Qui-gon so following that logic Malgus would be TPM maul level and that is still beyond Fisto or Kolar.

No, but I think you'll have a hard time convincing anyone that defeating a featless character is "far beyond" what a character with upper-tier feats can accomplish.



Do you need a translator?



You are an absolute retard if you believe Zallow is equivalent to Mace Windu.

I can list about half a dozen Jedi from the SWTOR era disincluding the protags that you couldn't deny are superior to Zallow. I can list 4 Jedi in the PT in Kolar's case.



That's cool, so Zallow is above Qui-Gon "because you say so".

Even if Malgus's skills as a duelist were above Maul's, he still wouldn't be beyond Kolar and Kit.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Actually, in a contest of skill with a blade, Team 1 has a promising chance.

Nah.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
How do you figure? Everyone that Malgus has overcome in lightsaber combat are significantly inferior to the two masters you claim can't overcome him.
I could say the same thing for Fisto and Kolar. They've never beaten anyone of Malgus or Kun's level as duelists.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Even if Malgus's skills as a duelist were above Maul's, he still wouldn't be beyond Kolar and Kit.
What?

Newguy's crushing hard on Kolar.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Actually, in a contest of skill with a blade, Team 1 has a promising chance.

Really? Agen Kolar? the one who has like one quote and a handful of feats? I mean Kit is arguable but he'd still get destroyed by Kun or Malgus. With Kun being a master of Niman and overall lightsaber combat. I Expected this from Carthage or PT But not you Sas. neither Kit or Kolar have anything that compare them to Malgus or Kun imo. I mean didn't Malgus get taken down by the very same strike team that killed Revan? meaning the best of the best?

The strike team that killed Malgus/defeated Revan is confirmed in at least 3 different quotes that they are the best in different variations.

Not in a lightsaber duel he wouldn't.



You mean like how Kit and Agen are masters of Shii-Cho and Ataru respectively?



I am clueless as to why you can't wrap your head around the fact that those who were christened as amongst the greatest swordsmen the Jedi Order has ever produced can stand to those who were christened as the amongst the greatest Dark Lords, especially in a contest of skill.

We've seen this specifically in Malgus's case with inferior Jedi, such as Ven Zallow.



They're both peers of Mace.



Yeah, Malgus, Revan, and dozens of other plebs. Being killed by players in SWTOR isn't a feat.

I loled at comparing Kolar to Kun/Malgus.

Tbh they have better dueling feats than Revan.

That's cool. I'm lol'ing at the amount of imbeciles in this thread.

So far, it seems apparent to everyone that I'm insane, yet not one of you can produce any form of decent argument to support that claim.

All Kolar has is being called one of the best in the Order's history.
That's a really good accolade...but not in comparison to Malgus/Kun.
The entire TOR era wasn't even established when the quote was released.
Kolar can be in the Top 200 and still be classified as one of the best.
In comparison, Kun/Malgus are among the Top 20-.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
I am clueless as to why you can't wrap your head around the fact that those who were christened as amongst the greatest swordsmen the Jedi Order has ever produced can stand to those who were christened as the amongst the greatest Dark Lords, especially in a contest of skill.

There's a vast variance in terms of level of those who can claim just an accolade. It isn't a description that miraculously puts them all on the same pedestal.

Even if Kit and Kolar are on par with them in terms of skill, they would still lose by virtue of being significantly less powerful than Malgus and Kun, like with Bane vs Kas'im.

Cool, so Kolar is in the top 200 and Malgus in the top 20. Nice assumptions there. Now back it up idiot.

Originally posted by Nephthys
There's a vast variance in terms of level of those who can claim just an accolade. It isn't a description that miraculously puts them all on the same pedestal.

Even if Kit and Kolar are on par with them in terms of skill, they would still lose by virtue of being significantly less powerful than Malgus and Kun, like with Bane vs Kas'im.

Then it's too bad this match is sabers only.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Cool, so Kolar is in the top 200 and Malgus in the top 20. Nice assumptions there. Now back it up idiot.
1. Don't insult me and call me an idiot. That's not like you, and just makes you look worse in a thread where everyone is against you.
2. You are doubting Kun/Malgus are among the Top 20? Wut.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Then it's too bad this match is sabers only.

Bane vs Kas'im was sabers only too, until the end. And Bane was beating Kas'im by virtue of his greater power.

Except that this is a sabers only match purely.

You mean like you're doing? Also, I could really care less what you plebs think of me, dude.



No, I'm pointing out the horrendous flaws in your ridiculous assumptions. Again, Malgus's best feat with a saber was his victory over Ven Zallow--It's impressive because Ven has his fair share of impressive accolades and feats. However, Agen and Kit's feats and accolades are even more impressive than his.

The fact that you deny one of the greatest bladesbeings ever produced by the Jedi Order could challenge Malgus in a duel is beyond me. Sora Bulq could challenge Mace, and he's less skilled than either of these two.

You might need to emphasize the fact that you've never denied that Kun and Malgus could win. You're simply arguing the feats and accolades of the PT jedi are being overlooked due to the rampant fanboyism of Kun/Malgus. Good luck doing that here, lol

Originally posted by carthage
You might need to emphasize the fact that you've never denied that Kun and Malgus could win. You're simply arguing the feats and accolades of the PT jedi are being overlooked due to the rampant fanboyism of Kun/Malgus. Good luck doing that here, lol

I cannot believe the voice of reason is coming from you of all people.

Why is it amazing coming from me? Try dealing with heretics like Ant and Neph, even a slight suggestion a TOR character can't win exposes tons of ridiculous bias that they accuse me of. Its like they can't accept the fact that Kit and Agen are renowned swordsmen that can put up a fight.

Because reasonability is not usually your strongest suit.

Yeah, it's pretty wired to me too. It's like they understand my argument until it comes to those two, then upon reading their names their brains shut off or something.

Malgus solos what is this?

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Because reasonability is not usually your strongest suit.



Don't tell me you are one of those Kas'sim > Tiin people?

Being correct and being reasonable are different.

Also, that could very well be true.

Except to claim Kolar is near the likes of Malgus implies Malgus would be hilariously annihilated by Palaptine.

His performance against Palpatine doesn't affect his own accomplishments at all. It's the core of what makes Palpatine's feat infinitely impressive, that's the exact reason why a lot of people think Sidious could simply blitz almost everybody. I personally don't share this belief though.

To me, the entire sequence seemed like bullshit. My best explanation is that the masters had vastly underestimated Palpatine's speed and ferocity, which is why the last master to be assaulted was also the one that lasted the longest. Realisitically it each of them should have fared better, but what's happened has happened.

Except it completely affects his own accomplishments.
Fact is that his only G-Canon appearance depicts him as being totally trashed by Sidious.
You think Malgus will be killed like that? No way.

The assertion that TOR Malgus is anything below late-CW Anakin level in sabers is hilariously inaccurate. And guess what? CW's Anakin could solo this match.

I like you again.
Like my strawberry lips.

If Sidious can blitz Kolar, he could do the same to Malgus given the same curcumstances. Because Malgus's saber feats aren't any better than his, and you haven't even argued against it.

You are correc that it is nothing but my personal belief that in a normal situation, and if the B-Team used their numbers in an effective manner rather than being picked off one by one, they should be capable of putting up no less of a fight than Maul and Savage did. However, make no mistake, it is *because* of this belief that I also believe Malgus/co. should be able to do the same.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Sidious could do the same to Malgus given the same curcumstances.


No way. How can you actually believe this?

I personally don't, actually, but I can easily make that argument and I'm not sure how you'd viably disprove it.

Tol Bragga could hold his ground in a fight with Malgus, just like Ven Zallow already did--No one can deny this. Yet Agen Kolar, who has everything those two have to their names and better, somehow cannot? That is the epitome of bullshit.

Malgus grew far more powerful after his fight with Zallow.

You're referring to his power boost after killing Aleema? That surely boosted his power, and perhaps his speed and strength as well, but it didn't make a considerable difference in his performance against Aryn as far as the dueling portion went.

If you're referring to some massive jump in skill between Decieved and his days as the false Emperor, then you have earned nothing but my amusement. Nothing indicates that.

He only truly got the improvement right at the end before he one-shot her. You can tell because he does it almost casually yet it eclipses all his previous efforts.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
No way. How can you actually believe this?


Going strictly by feats, Palpatine really is OP'd in speed.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Going strictly by feats, Palpatine really is OP'd in speed.

This is true. But honestly speaking by TOR Malgus is superior to Dooku, and the idea that Dooku would get lol blitzed by Palpatine is ludicrous.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
This is true. But honestly speaking by TOR Malgus is superior to Dooku, and the idea that Dooku would get lol blitzed by Palpatine is ludicrous.


He's better than Dooku, who was outpacing both Anakin and Kenobi, practically treating Kenobi as a non-factor in "The Lost one?"

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
He's better than Dooku, who was outpacing both Anakin and Kenobi, practically treating Kenobi as a non-factor in "The Lost one?"

I know that's what I mean. And shit both Anakin and Kenobi by this point could defeat both Fisto and Agen at the same time. So even if we lowball Malgus considerably he should still solo this match.

Kenobi couldn't defeat Agen and Kit at the same time. Anakin? Possibly, depending on the circumstance.

And no, I wanting to know why you put Malgus above Dooku in sabers.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Kenobi couldn't defeat Agen and Kit at the same time. Anakin? Possibly, depending on the circumstance.

Yes he could. Filoni blatantly says Savage Opress performance against Sidious far outstripped the Jedi Council's. Kenobi took on Maul and Savage on and won, Kit and Agen are vastly inferior to Savage and Maul.




I don't.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Yes he could. Filoni blatantly says Savage Opress performance against Sidious far outstripped the Jedi Council's. Kenobi took on Maul and Savage on and won, Kit and Agen are vastly inferior to Savage and Maul.




I don't.


Filoni also depicted Sidious as playing around and not trying to kill Maul. Lucas didn't have Sidious fighting the council members with the same demeanor.

Not to mention Filoni also made a direct comparison between the brothers and Yoda, stating that Yoda barely survived a confrontation with Sidious.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Filoni also depicted Sidious as playing around and not trying to kill Maul. Lucas didn't have Sidious fighting the council members with the same demeanor.

Which means nothing, his performance is still far better. Filoni himself confirms this. Its backed by Kit Fisto, the best on the team getting owned by an early CWs Ventress who in turn is inferior to Savage.



What's the exact quote? And what does this prove?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Kenobi couldn't defeat Agen and Kit at the same time. Anakin? Possibly, depending on the circumstance.

And no, I wanting to know why you put Malgus above Dooku in sabers.

Contradicted by newer sources which state Yoda and Sidious are equals.

That doesn't contradict anything. It's completely true that Yoda barely survived his encounter with Palpatine, I think you need to re-watch the movies.

Originally posted by WildBantha88
Malgus alone shows more effectiveness than either of team 1.... I don't think he could solo but neither Fisto nor Agen are taking him 1-1

Exar is the clear best of all three.

I actually agree with Based, Exar Kun is probably the most formidable duelist here. I think any of the other fighters could give him a hard fight though, considering his Force Powers aren't involved.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Which means nothing, his performance is still far better. Filoni himself confirms this. Its backed by Kit Fisto, the best on the team getting owned by an early CWs Ventress who in turn is inferior to Savage.



What's the exact quote? And what does this prove?


His performance was better in that he was lasting longer and being trolled, nothing more. Fisto didn't exactly get owned by Ventress. People assume that because the entire passage barely focused on the duel, but instead focused on Kenobi fighting off her minions. Ventress won that fight by kicking Fisto in the face, similar to how she did Kenobi in her last fight against him, except that Kenobi's performance was far more embarrassing because he had the help of Anakin, and was taken out of the fight in the first few seconds. And Ventress was beat by Savage because he was physically too overwhelming for her. Ventress is Savage's superior in every area except physical strength and force power.

I don't remember the exact quote verbatim, but the implication was that Sidious was Yoda's clear superior, and how his fight with the brothers was supposed to showcase why no one is able to compete with Sidious. I'm on my phone so I can't get the link until later. It was posted by Temp. My point is, Filoni's opinion doesn't matter unless it's regarding his own productions. If we take everything Filoni says as canon then no one can compete with Sidious, and the mini CW series are exaggerated depictions of force.

Maul's performance in the last 30 seconds of the fight alone is more impressive than anything Kolar has.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
His performance was better in that he was lasting longer and being trolled, nothing more. Fisto didn't exactly get owned by Ventress. People assume that because the entire passage barely focused on the duel, but instead focused on Kenobi fighting off her minions. Ventress won that fight by kicking Fisto in the face, similar to how she did Kenobi in her last fight against him, except that Kenobi's performance was far more embarrassing because he had the help of Anakin, and was taken out of the fight in the first few seconds. And Ventress was beat by Savage because he was physically too overwhelming for her. Ventress is Savage's superior in every area except physical strength and force power.


He still lost to early CW's Ventress, who Kenobi babyshook in the first Clone Wars movie. Also I highly doubt Ventress would have finished him before he recovered. And Kenobi wasn't serious in that fight. Neither was Skywalker. Although n-canon Infinities shows Kenobi defeating Ventress on Kamino.



Yeah implications are different than outright statements. And yes its relevant to his own productions he shows Savage doing better than the Councilors because he's better than all of them. And Maul is WAY better than all of them.


Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
His performance was better in that he was lasting longer and being trolled, nothing more. Fisto didn't exactly get owned by Ventress. People assume that because the entire passage barely focused on the duel, but instead focused on Kenobi fighting off her minions. Ventress won that fight by kicking Fisto in the face, similar to how she did Kenobi in her last fight against him, except that Kenobi's performance was far more embarrassing because he had the help of Anakin, and was taken out of the fight in the first few seconds. And Ventress was beat by Savage because he was physically too overwhelming for her. Ventress is Savage's superior in every area except physical strength and force power.

I don't remember the exact quote verbatim, but the implication was that Sidious was Yoda's clear superior, and how his fight with the brothers was supposed to showcase why no one is able to compete with Sidious. I'm on my phone so I can't get the link until later. It was posted by Temp. My point is, Filoni's opinion doesn't matter unless it's regarding his own productions. If we take everything Filoni says as canon then no one can compete with Sidious, and the mini CW series are exaggerated depictions of force.

*Originally posted by Emperordmb
Maul's performance in the last 30 seconds of the fight alone is more impressive than anything Kolar has.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
He still lost to early CW's Ventress, who Kenobi babyshook in the first Clone Wars movie. Also I highly doubt Ventress would have finished him before he recovered. And Kenobi wasn't serious in that fight. Neither was Skywalker. Although n-canon Infinities shows Kenobi defeating Ventress on Kamino.



Yeah implications are different than outright statements. And yes its relevant to his own productions he shows Savage doing better than the Councilors because he's better than all of them. And Maul is WAY better than all of them.







Filoni outright stated no one can compete with Sidious, so I guess that's true then?

He didn't show Savage as doing better other than lasting longer due to Sidious' trolling. Sorry, but slashing his saber in the ground and swinging it around, while Sidious dances around him, and physically attacks him without even looking at him, is not showing Savage as doing better than the council members. It's showing Sidious as not taking him seriously, and enjoying the fight as Filoni outright stated. I don't think Sidious could afford doing the same with the council members, which is why he went straight for the kill.

Kenobi barely bested Ventress in the CW movie. She disarmed him and the fight was pretty long. Regardless, Kenobi admitted to being inferior to Fisto at the beginning of the war. Not to mention he tooled Grievous whereas Kenobi has struggled immensely with him up until ROTS. Not much of a disparity has been shown between them.

Also, I looked up the supposed timelines, and apparently "The Cestus Deception" would have taken place well after The Clone Wars movie.

Obi-Wan admitted clear inferiority to Fisto in TCD, and Agen Kolar even more skilled than he. There is no escape!

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Also, I looked up the supposed timelines, and apparently "The Cestus Deception" would have taken place well after The Clone Wars movie.

Obi-Wan admitted clear inferiority to Fisto in TCD, and Agen Kolar even more skilled than he. There is no escape!


How late in the war?

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Filoni outright stated no one can compete with Sidious, so I guess that's true then?

No because George Lucas' 'you have to be Yoda or Mace Windu to compete with the Emperor' overrides it.



Yeah, sorry Filoni is a canon source, you are not. If he flat out says Savage is better than the Jedi Councilors who fought Sidious that's what it is. That's his interpretation of the scene he directed. How is your interpretation more valid than his at all?



Because Shi-Cho is amazing at dealing with multiple foes. Also Grievous got better as the war progressed.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Also, I looked up the supposed timelines, and apparently "The Cestus Deception" would have taken place well after The Clone Wars movie.

Obi-Wan admitted clear inferiority to Fisto in TCD, and Agen Kolar even more skilled than he. There is no escape!

Kolar is not better than Fisto.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Maul's performance in the last 30 seconds of the fight alone is more impressive than anything Kolar has.

I am in agreement.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
No because George Lucas' 'you have to be Yoda or Mace Windu to compete with the Emperor' overrides it.


So what overrides his remark about the mini CW series being exaggerated depictions of force usage, which is a source of feats that you consistently draw from?



Originally posted by Lord Stark
Yeah, sorry Filoni is a canon source, you are not.


Too bad nothing Filoni said contradicts my argument.


Originally posted by Lord Stark
If he flat out says Savage is better than the Jedi Councilors who fought Sidious that's what it is.


No, he said Savage did better against Sidious, which he did, because Sidious was clearly trolling him.


Originally posted by Lord Stark
That's his interpretation of the scene he directed. How is your interpretation more valid than his at all?


Because his interpretation of the ROTS fight scene isn't any more valid than mine. And even if it were, his statement doesn't contradict my interpretation, considering that, again, he showed Sidious deactivating his sabers mid-fight, dancing around Savage's strikes, and physically attacking him without even looking. He was trolling Savage, taking his time, and enjoying the fight as Filoni stated. Lucas didn't show Sidious as having the same demeanor against the council members. Therefore, doing better against a trolling Sidious doesn't suggest he's better than some of the top skilled saber masters of the order.

You can ignore context all you want, but it doesn't change the circumstances and that Sidious treated both fights differently, which I explained how in great detail in the Agen vs Talon thread.

You'd have a point if the fight was set up the same way, and was meant to showcase a disparity between Savage and the council members, but it wasn't, and the very different nature of the fight supports my conclusion more than it does yours.



Originally posted by Lord Stark
Because Shi-Cho is amazing at dealing with multiple foes. Also Grievous got better as the war progressed.


Grievous was a single foe, wielding multiple sabers, which is what Kenobi's form is well suited for as well.

Also, where is your proof that he got better? In fact, I'd argue that Kenobi is the one who got better, considering ROTS was the only fight in which he solidly defeated Grievous in a saber contest. Grievous' performance against Kenobi remained the same throughout the CW, in which he usually held the upper hand against Kenobi in pure sabers.



Originally posted by Lord Stark
Kolar is not better than Fisto.


It was heavily implied by Mace Windu, given that he was the first person Mace had in mind to help him to take on Sidious, whom I'm sure they acknowledged as possibly being more powerful than Dooku.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
If he flat out says Savage is better than the Jedi Councilors who fought Sidious that's what it is.

He never says that, though.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
He never says that, though.


"He does better than the Jedi Council" *laugh* heavily implies it.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
"He does better than the Jedi Council" *laugh* heavily implies it.

I disagree for long-established reasons currently conveyed by S66. Either way, though, he never flat-out says anything of the sort.