Darth Thanaton vs Darth Wyyrlok III

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Q99
It doesn't hurt.
It doesn't proves much since Andeddu is from a time during which Sith are lot less developed and capable in general in comparison to those in the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire.

ANALOGY: Surik's victory over Darth Sion and Darth Traya didn't guarantee her chances against strongest individuals of the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire. Difference is in the quality factor of Sith in different factions; Sith had considerably evolved within the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire due to high standards set for them by the Sith Emperor.

Originally posted by Q99
Andeddu was in a sith-eat-sith competition of the old empire. Thanaton had to get his position via blackmail, Andeddu got his through raw power.
This is utterly lame argument. I take it that you haven't read Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia and you have the tendency to underrate reconstituted ancient Sith Empire and quality of its Sith in general.

You are just speculating about ground realities of Andeddu's era based on your bias factor. REMINDER: Sith became more powerful and competent within the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire then they ever had been before in history.

In addition, Thanaton progressed and flourished primarily due to his "insurmountable strength." He would have stood no chance against other powerful Sith in the cutthroat competition if he could be taken out easily.

Originally posted by Q99
'Competition' past a certain point is overrated, especially when Thanaton is not the *top* of the competition, or even second place.
Competition ensures survival of the fittest among the Sith. Reconstituted ancient Sith Empire was designed to ensure cutthroat competition for the Sith, to ensure quality and progress.

Thanaton had to contend with thousands of other Sith for survival and prominence within the Empire. Acquiring a position in the Dark Council was a HUGE accomplishment for any Sith; it was a position of great power, a Sith Lord would become the leader of a specific sphere of influence within the Empire which implies that he had a powerbase of his own (sometimes comprising whole armies and many Sith). Sith typically plotted their entire lives to ascend to the Dark Council, most were not privileged enough to be offered a seat in the Dark Council for political reasons.

Within the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire, competition took place in two phases:-

1. In academies which involved deadly Sith trials.
2. Outside academies for greater power and prominence after graduation.

Entire system was designed in such a way that only the greatest among the Sith would be able to gain prominence within the Empire.

Originally posted by Q99
And it was Andeddu, not Thanaton, who got remembered and respected into the Clone War era.
This means squat actually.

I don't see Sith Emperor being discussed much in future eras and he was arguably the biggest threat to the Jedi Order in history, far far greater threat then Andeddu ever was. Oh wait! Andeddu wasn't even a threat to the Jedi Order.

You need to think rationally, not emotionally, when presenting an argument.

Originally posted by Q99
But certainly no less, and arguably greater, than Thanaton's.
Based on what exactly?

Krayt didn't had to compete with thousands of other Sith for supremacy and neither he existed in a setting which promoted cutthroat competition.

Krayt's rise to prominence have lot of circumstances attached to it and ground realities of his era are vastly different from that of reconstituted ancient Sith Empire.

Originally posted by Q99
Which is impressive. Also, there was a lightning clash which Wyyrlok blocked bare-handed.
Thanaton can summon lightning storms of such intensity which have been rarely duplicated in galactic history. It took Darth Nox to wield combined might of several Force spirits with dark sorcery to tank Thanaton's powers. I don't see a possibility of Wyyrlok III being able to defend himself from powers of Thanaton.

Originally posted by Q99
Indeed, trying to play illusions with him is a sure way to lose for Thanaton. He may not have a choice in the matter, mind you.
And you know this how exactly? Not trying to assert that Thanaton is likely to use illusions in combat situation, he seldom does anyways, but nothing suggests that Wyyrlok III is infallible in an illusion-specific contest.

Originally posted by Q99
So, pretty much just the lightning?

Wyyrlok has good defense against lightning both vs Andeddu and vs Krayt.
Thanaton have lot more to him then proficiency in lightning application, he is an accomplished sorcerer.

In addition, neither Krayt and not Anddedu hold a candle to Thanaton's proficiency in lightning application. Thanaton could summon lightning of such a magnitude and intensity that he could destroy structures made of metal and concrete, literally one-shot other powerful Force-users and formulate violent whirlwinds of destruction with it.

Originally posted by Q99
Feat-wise, what sorcerers can match up? I can think of Zannah, Vitaite, and.... who else? Most sorcerers do not have near his level of feats.
Exar Kun? Dread Masters? Jadus? List would be bigger realistically.

Thanaton also have deadly command of sorcery; he one-shot Darth Nox with an unknown application of sorcery during their first confrontation.

Originally posted by Q99
Not as much so as Wyyrlok, who was able to hold his own against Krayt.

Thanaton's dueling feats are more limited.
And this is also speculation.

Thanaton also had exceptional command of lightsaber dueling arts, his apprentice turned out to be a legendary duelist.

WildBantha88

Thanato can attack suddenly and without Wyyrlok noticing

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Vitiate, Malgus, Revan, Hero, Jadus, Wrath, Nox, Marr, Barsen'thor, and Kaedan are above Thanaton off the top of my head.
From this list, only Vitiate and Nox have been confirmed to be above Thanaton at official capacity. Nox surpassed Thanation by virtue of wielding combined might of several Force spirits which is purely unnatural and stupendous power progression. I don't think any mortal can match this level of strength. Force-spirit is a powerful manifestation of energy, combined might of 6 of them? God have mercy on the opponent.

Jadus is also a possibility but Thanaton have greater hype in the encyclopedic medium then Jadus. No one else in the list have been confirmed to be above Thanaton or even match his hype in the same medium.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I wonder if he's even in the top 10, tbh.
Seriously?

Thanaton is absolutely among the greatest and strongest Sith of the Empire, in history as well. Definitely top 10 material.

Q99

He's from the original Sith Empire. Home of Tulak Hork and Marka Ragnos. The original Sith Empire was not *that* undeveloped.

He *invented* essence transfer. Sorcery was an area they developed well.

And, during his time in it? He was number 1, not number 12 or whatever Thanaton is at.

Sure, but on the flip side, nor does it mean that someone who's not even at the top is automatically stronger than anyone from eras with fewer strong people.

I mean, Vitiate, or Malgus? Of course they're stronger than Andeddu. Thanaton? Ehhh, not so sure.

Sure, it's certainly more powerful. It has multiple people stronger than Andeddu, and it has more generally strong people overall.

The problem here is you're trying to apply a generality to a specific situation, but you're assuming 'overall most powerful' means 'every powerful individual from one is stronger than every powerful individual from another.'

I do not hold this to be the case of *any* era. Not just TOR era, I simply don't believe there's an era when the 12th most powerful sith is going to top the pinnacle of another era which is still impressive in it's own right. The 2nd or 3rd of a stronger era? Sure. But there are limits.

Actually, he's certainly mentioned in the Book of the Sith. Heck, Malgus gets props.

Yes, because he never met them. That's... not exactly much of an argument smile

I'll bounce that at you. So far you've resorted to insisting on bias and saying someone's weak because they didn't threaten a group they hadn't met.

You're heavily relying on emotion here.

He was one of the stronger duelists in the Clone Wars, before he spent a century and a half delving into the darkside and growing in power, where he had the respect of the likes of Luke and Caedus for his power, and then he eventually learned to defeat death and self-resurrect, a holy grail of the force that even luminaries like Plagueis failed to achieve.

More competition does not always equal better. Sometimes centuries of improvement on an already solid base kicks it's butt.

Heck, Vitiate's competition vanished in the Great Hyperspace War, meaning he spent most of the time growing on his own, and he's the strongest of anyone in TOR.

Sure, his gave him a lot more time to develop and access to a lot more past knowledge to draw on.

'Different' does not equal 'worse'.

What, in sorcery? Exar had alchemy at a very high level, but his most famous force power is blasts using an alchemical device. He didn't do much combat sorcery.

The Dread Masters relied heavily on artifacts for a specific power themselves. They presumably had some sorcery power aside from that- but it's pretty hard to tell.

Jadus... does he have any sorcery feats? Is he even a sorcerer? Are you just naming people from TOR and assuming they're better sorcerers because they're from TOR?

Didn't he first try a weaker sorcery that was *blocked*? That shows it's not exactly the hardest to defend stuff.

And in his final duel, when drawing on his strongest attacks, he picked lightning.

Wyyrlok has shown far more, and he showed them head-to-head with a master sorcerer.

No, it's not speculation. Wyyrlok has a demonstrated high-level dueling feat.

Thanaton has not actually dueled anyone strong. Generalized statements of possessing high skill doesn't say *how* skilled he is next to an actual proven high-level duelist, and his apprentice being skilled doesn't mean he's that level as numerous apprentices have passed their masters.

Going back to emotion vs logic, I believe that due to your like of Thanaton, you're willing to use speculation here in place of feats, but the fact of the matter is Wyyrlok has actual feats.

1- Thanaton is somehow going to attack very quickly without Wyyrlok even noticing.

2- Thanaton mostly uses noticeable force abilities with a significant charge-up while Wyyrlok's fought against Krayt who has very high speed feats.

At least argue in favor of Thanaton's specialty, that is to say overpowering charged-up assaults. Thanaton overpowers, not blitzes.

Emperordmb

Originally posted by Q99
1- Thanaton is somehow going to attack very quickly without Wyyrlok even noticing.

2- Thanaton mostly uses noticeable force abilities with a significant charge-up while Wyyrlok's fought against Krayt who has very high speed feats.

At least argue in favor of Thanaton's specialty, that is to say overpowering charged-up assaults. Thanaton overpowers, not blitzes.
Relax Q99, it's a running joke from that stupid debate I had with Flashpoint98 back on SWF where he said "Kolar can attack with Force Powers suddenly and without Bane noticing."

FreshestSlice

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Seriously?

Thanaton is absolutely among the greatest and strongest Sith of the Empire, in history as well. Definitely top 10 material.
Top 10? No. Top 15? Yes.

carthage

You are barely noticing this now even though you've been on this forum longer than me and have doubtlessly argued against this guy before? LOL. Why are you wasting your time with him Q?

Q99

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Relax Q99, it's a running joke from that stupid debate I had with Flashpoint98 back on SWF where he said "Kolar can attack with Force Powers suddenly and without Bane noticing."

Ah, yea smile

I do tend to get drawn into debates.... still, I find it interesting he's naming a character who doesn't even seem to be a sorcerer!

Nephthys

Originally posted by Q99
Who would you say is top-10 in the era?

I was just talking about Sith. no expression

Vitiate
Malgus
Jadus
Marr
Baras
First Son
Scourge
Wrath
Nox
Vivicar
Dread Masters

All are above Thanaton. It says something about the strength of the era IMO that such a powerful Sith as him is still so far down the pecking order. He's not even in the Top 15 Sith seen in TOR.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Seriously?

Thanaton is absolutely among the greatest and strongest Sith of the Empire, in history as well. Definitely top 10 material.

If you think there's anyone on the above list Thanaton is superior to, you're welcome to disagree.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Q99
He's from the original Sith Empire. Home of Tulak Hork and Marka Ragnos. The original Sith Empire was not *that* undeveloped.
So?

Sith improved with passage of time, they had golden age during the time of Marka Ragnos, not during the time of Andeddu. After the disaster of Great Hyperspace War, Sith learned some valuable lessons from this defeat and improved further in the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire.

Reconstituted ancient Sith Empire represents prime period of ancient Sith in all aspects.

Originally posted by Q99
He *invented* essence transfer. Sorcery was an area they developed well.
So?

Yes, Andeddu was an accomplished sorcerer in his era but many of his peers were not highly developed.

Originally posted by Q99
And, during his time in it? He was number 1, not number 12 or whatever Thanaton is at.
This shows the level of development of Sith in general in his era, lot lower then the standards achieved by reconstituted ancient Sith Empire. If Thanaton have some rivals, this positively reflects upon the quality of Sith of his time in general.

Originally posted by Q99
Sure, but on the flip side, nor does it mean that someone who's not even at the top is automatically stronger than anyone from eras with fewer strong people.
You have no point here. I am not interested in arguments for the sake of arguments. If you have to post something concrete, please do.

Originally posted by Q99
I mean, Vitiate, or Malgus? Of course they're stronger than Andeddu. Thanaton? Ehhh, not so sure.
roll eyes (sarcastic)

Andeddu used to be a prominent figure in his time, this doesn't implies that he will do well in reconstituted ancient Sith Empire or match its quality Sith.

Like Vitiate, Thanaton have been stated to be supremely powerful, and like Malgus, Thanaton have been stated to be among the greatest warriors of the Empire. Thanaton isn't some chump by any stretch of imagination, he have significant hype going for him. It took Darth Nox to draw on the power of several Force spirits to subdue Thanaton on top of his own immense strength, otherwise Nox stood no chance and clashes ended badly for him.

Did anybody think that Surik would not stand a chance against a Sith Lord of reconstituted ancient Sith Empire after defeating prominent Sith Lords such as Darth Sion and Darth Traya? Both are among the quality Sith of the mythos and seem to be stronger and more dangerous then Andeddu with proven combat record, credentials and feats. Open your eyes.

Originally posted by Q99
Sure, it's certainly more powerful. It has multiple people stronger than Andeddu, and it has more generally strong people overall.

The problem here is you're trying to apply a generality to a specific situation, but you're assuming 'overall most powerful' means 'every powerful individual from one is stronger than every powerful individual from another.'
Good, I see progress here.

No, I am not asserting that Andeddu is weaker then every Sith in the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire. Andeddu was an outlier in his time but I don't see him flourishing in the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire, certainly no match for the elites of the Empire; Sith had progressed so much with passage of time. A typical Lord in the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire is (officially) a powerful individual. Heck, even talented apprentices are powerful individuals in the Empire. Elites are just simply super-strong by mythos standards. Reconstituted ancient Sith Empire have evidently produced highest number of high quality Sith in galactic history.

You may rate Andeddu highly because some of his peers ganged up on him to subdue him in his time and his popularity in general but the same Lord lost to a single individual in a future era. This is a wake-up call, an indication that quality of Sith is better in Krayt's era then it was in the time of Andeddu in general. Also, popularity doesn't necessarily translates to great power.

Originally posted by Q99
I do not hold this to be the case of *any* era. Not just TOR era, I simply don't believe there's an era when the 12th most powerful sith is going to top the pinnacle of another era which is still impressive in it's own right. The 2nd or 3rd of a stronger era? Sure. But there are limits.
See above

Reconstituted ancient Sith Empire represents epitome of progress of Sith Order in galactic history; Empire became a galactic superpower; significant progress made in the field of sciences; Standards for Sith increased as Sith learned new powers, honed their combat skills and produced an environment which ensured survival of the fittest.

Originally posted by Q99
Actually, he's certainly mentioned in the Book of the Sith. Heck, Malgus gets props.
Big deal?

Yes, this sourcebook reveals how powerful Malgus had become but Sidious also noted that he is "one of the" Emperor's greatest soldiers.

Originally posted by Q99
Yes, because he never met them. That's... not exactly much of an argument smile

It is, Tulak Hord challenged Jedi unlike him and killed over a thousand.

You want to talk about super-strong ancient Sith? Look no further then Tulak Hord, Vitiate and Marka Ragnos.

Originally posted by Q99
I'll bounce that at you. So far you've resorted to insisting on bias and saying someone's weak because they didn't threaten a group they hadn't met.

You're heavily relying on emotion here.
You are mistaken, I am not emotionally invested in Thanaton and many other characters whom I may choose to debate in favor of. Heck, I came to terms with the possibility of even the mighty Revan having rivals with passage of time.

Originally posted by Q99
He was one of the stronger duelists in the Clone Wars, before he spent a century and a half delving into the darkside and growing in power, where he had the respect of the likes of Luke and Caedus for his power, and then he eventually learned to defeat death and self-resurrect, a holy grail of the force that even luminaries like Plagueis failed to achieve.
Yes, Krayt is good but he rose to prominence under right circumstances, he wasn't challenging Darth Vader, Darth Sidious, Exar Kun and Darth Caedus for supremacy. Yuuzhan Vong also unwittingly played a role in his rise to prominence, various other circumstances. Krayt also learned a lesson from his clash with Obi-Wan and focused on honing his talents with great patience.

Death is not an end for many Sith.

Originally posted by Q99
More competition does not always equal better. Sometimes centuries of improvement on an already solid base kicks it's butt.
You are mistaken, look at the progress of Bannite Sith; with good strategy and sense of direction, Sith can improve with passage of time.

Ancient Sith also continued to improve throughout ages; ancient Sith reached the epitome of Sith ideals with reconstituted ancient Sith Empire.

Originally posted by Q99
Heck, Vitiate's competition vanished in the Great Hyperspace War, meaning he spent most of the time growing on his own, and he's the strongest of anyone in TOR.
Vitiate had no competition during the golden age of the Sith, he squashed other Sith Lords like bugs. Even Marka Ragnos did not dare to challenge him or target him for assassination. However, Vitiate had competition from his own followers in the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire even as a Sith Emperor, he had been tested time and again by other Sith for supremacy and targeted for assassination several times.

Originally posted by Q99
Sure, his gave him a lot more time to develop and access to a lot more past knowledge to draw on.

'Different' does not equal 'worse'.
Thanaton is much more battle-hardened and tested Sith in comparison. Krayt nearly lost his life to Wyyrlok III, Thanaton held his own against a very powerful Sith Lord during his younger days, become much stronger later on (supremely powerful) and also had vast resources under his disposal concerning ancient knowledge.

You are not getting it yet. REPEAT:

- It took Darth Nox to draw on the power of several Force spirits on top of his own immense strength to subdue Thanaton. A lone Force spirit is a powerful and dangerous manifestation of energy, combined might of 6 Force spirits is simply too much of a strength for any mortal to contend with. Thanaton was so powerful that other powerful Sith served him and Darth Nox stood no chance against him in a fair contest.

Originally posted by Q99
What, in sorcery? Exar had alchemy at a very high level, but his most famous force power is blasts using an alchemical device. He didn't do much combat sorcery.
Kun have more to him then alchemy. He one-shot Luke Skywalker with an application of dark sorcery, Luke "freaking" Skywalker.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Q99
The Dread Masters relied heavily on artifacts for a specific power themselves. They presumably had some sorcery power aside from that- but it's pretty hard to tell.
I take it that you haven't played the flashpoint featuring Dread Masters. My advice is to try it and you will know how stupendously capable sorcerers these individuals were. They give the vibe of The Ones. Do the math.

Originally posted by Q99
Jadus... does he have any sorcery feats? Is he even a sorcerer? Are you just naming people from TOR and assuming they're better sorcerers because they're from TOR?
Jadus is Sith Inquisitor and he have incredible Force abilities.

Originally posted by Q99
Didn't he first try a weaker sorcery that was *blocked*? That shows it's not exactly the hardest to defend stuff.
No.

Thanaton unleashed a power with which he put Nox out of commission in a single attack. And Nox was already amped by power of a Force spirit at this point on top of his own immense strength.

Originally posted by Q99
And in his final duel, when drawing on his strongest attacks, he picked lightning.

Wyyrlok has shown far more, and he showed them head-to-head with a master sorcerer.
Seriously, you can't be this stupid.

Thanaton literally unleashed a violent vortex of destruction on Nox with sorcery-enhanced lightning, same power would have utterly demolished any mortal. Nox survived by drawing on the overwhelming power of several Force spirits at this point on top of having sorcery-enhanced defensive abilities, he would have perished otherwise. The whole agenda of Sith Inquisitor story is that it represents rivalry between two supremely powerful Sith Lords for supremacy.

Originally posted by Q99
No, it's not speculation. Wyyrlok has a demonstrated high-level dueling feat.

Thanaton has not actually dueled anyone strong. Generalized statements of possessing high skill doesn't say *how* skilled he is next to an actual proven high-level duelist, and his apprentice being skilled doesn't mean he's that level as numerous apprentices have passed their masters.
Wyyrlok haven't demonstrated high-level dueling feat, he happened to clash with a capable swordsman but he never struck Krayt down or did he?

Thanaton, on the contrary, is among the greatest warriors the Empire have ever produced. When will you open your eyes?

Originally posted by Q99
Going back to emotion vs logic, I believe that due to your like of Thanaton, you're willing to use speculation here in place of feats, but the fact of the matter is Wyyrlok has actual feats.
Complete baseless claim, Thanaton didn't loose to any mortal in a clash. It took Nox to draw on the overwhelming power of several Force spirits on top of his own immense strength to subdue him. Wyyrlok III holds no candle to power of Darth Nox by any stretch of imagination and neither have ever one-shot other powerful Force-users with his powers. Feats? Useless.

Exak Kressh have more impressive feats then Wyyrlok III and she failed to defeat a young Thanaton. Forget Thanaton at his prime.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Q99
I do tend to get drawn into debates.... still, I find it interesting he's naming a character who doesn't even seem to be a sorcerer!
If you are taking carthage seriously then I don't have much to say to you. You will loose credibility really fast.

Nephthys

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
They give the vibe of The Ones. Do the math.

No.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Jadus is Sith Inquisitor and he have incredible Force abilities.

He never displays an sorcery technique though.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
No.

Thanaton unleashed a power with which he put Nox out of commission in a single attack. And Nox was already amped by power of a Force spirit at this point on top of his own immense strength.

Yes.

Thanaton tried a lesser attack first, which Nox blocked. He then used a more powerful ritual.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Thanaton literally unleashed a violent vortex of destruction on Nox with sorcery-enhanced lightning, same power would have utterly demolished any mortal.

Hell no.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Wyyrlok haven't demonstrated high-level dueling feat, he happened to clash with a capable swordsman but he never struck Krayt down or did he?

Thanaton, on the contrary, is among the greatest warriors the Empire have ever produced. When will you open your eyes?

Thanaton has likewise never beaten anyone with his lighstaber skills. His Force powers are much more advanced and established. With regards to his lightsaber skills he is relatively weak.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Exak Kressh have more impressive feats then Wyyrlok III and she failed to defeat a young Thanaton. Forget Thanaton at his prime.

No.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Nephthys
No.
Yes! They don't seem like conventional Sith by any stretch of imagination, they are absolute masters of Sith magic and esoteric talents. They are virtually immortal, can bend time and space or alter reality, shape-shift, spawn monstrosities, masters of the Force and each and every shit you can think of.

Originally posted by Nephthys
He never displays an sorcery technique though.
Ok

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes.

Thanaton tried a lesser attack first, which Nox blocked. He then used a more powerful ritual.
Ok, thanks for pointing out.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Hell no.
Hell yes. It was an extremely deadly attack.

Nox tanked by drawing on the energy of several Force spirits bind to him and enhanced body.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Thanaton has likewise never beaten anyone with his lighstaber skills.
And you know this how? He came to be regarded as one of the greatest warriors of the Empire by not beating anybody? Makes no sense to me.

Originally posted by Nephthys
His Force powers are much more advanced and established. With regards to his lightsaber skills he is relatively weak.
???

If he is not a formidable duelist himself, how come he managed to forge his apprentice in to a legendary duelist?

Originally posted by Nephthys
No.
Yes.

Read this thread: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=707012

Exal Kressh is very impressive.

Nephthys

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Yes! They don't seem like conventional Sith by any stretch of imagination, they are absolute masters of Sith magic and esoteric talents. They are virtually immortal, can bend time and space or alter reality, shape-shift, spawn monstrosities, masters of the Force and each and every shit you can think of.

That they are very powerful and have a lot of esoteric abilities doesn't put them near the One's by any stretch of the imagination.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Hell yes.

No, there are a lot of mortals who can block Thanaton's lightning. I cannot even believe you think that. Even in TOR there are people who could block it as easily as Nox did. The Hero of Tython chief among them. Darth Jadus, Malgus, Revan, the Barsen'thor etc. All mortal and all better than Thanaton and able to deal with his attack.

Also I don't think it was sorcery-enhanced lightning either.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
And you know this how? He came to be regarded as one of the greatest warriors of the Empire by not beating anybody? Makes no sense to me.

There's no records of him beating anyone in pure lightsabers. Suggesting he has is purely speculative. He could become one of the greatest Sith warriors through his Force powers instead of his skill with a blade.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
???

If he is not a formidable duelist himself, how come he managed to forge his apprentice in to a legendary duelist?

That his apprentice was a gifted swordsman doesn't automatically mean Thanaton was. Perhaps his student simply had great natural talent in lightsaber skill.

Also there are ways to teach swordsmanship without Thanaton needing to directly teach it to him. Sith Instructors are available to all in the Empire and you can learn from other sources as well. Thanaton does have a tablet with Tulak Hord's lightsaber techniques, which he could allow his student it study.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Yes.

Read this thread: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=707012

Exal Kressh is very impressive.

Yes, she is. That doesn't mean she's more impressive than Wyyrlok though.

FreshestSlice

When did being a mortal suddenly put on a power limit? Especially against other mortals?

Nephthys

I have no idea. Legend seems to think it makes you godly powerful to be immortal. He's comparing the Dread Masters to the Ones because of it despite the fact that they've been defeated twice by mere mortals.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Nephthys
That they are very powerful and have a lot of esoteric abilities doesn't put them near the One's by any stretch of the imagination.
I am not comparing Dread Masters with The Ones in the context of strength. My point is that Dread Masters are so powerful and can perform such kind of actions that they seem to give the vibe of The Ones. They don't seem like conventional Sith, they are beyond conventional Sith in abilities.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No, there are a lot of mortals who can block Thanaton's lightning. I cannot even believe you think that. Even in TOR there are people who could block it as easily as Nox did. The Hero of Tython chief among them.
That wasn't a standard lightning burst and I don't think that many can block that kind of power. Nox didn't block that kind of power with his natural strength and capabilities, he tanked it through unnatural strength and capabilities.

I do not understand why this is even a debate. The whole point of story of Darth Nox is that that dark sorcery is a pathway to stupendous power progression and talents and clash between champions of the Force in which one prevailed.

Originally posted by Nephthys
There's no records of him beating anyone in pure lightsabers. Suggesting he has is purely speculative. He could become one of the greatest Sith warriors through his Force powers instead of his skill with a blade.
Thanaton fought his opponents using every means at his disposal including his lightsaber.

Examples:-

http://i44.tinypic.com/2e21pog.jpg

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120813184822/villains/images/3/31/Kel_on_Begeren.jpeg

In the top image, Thanaton spun his blade so fast that it left after-images in its wake.

Originally posted by Nephthys
That his apprentice was a gifted swordsman doesn't automatically mean Thanaton was. Perhaps his student simply had great natural talent in lightsaber skill.

Also there are ways to teach swordsmanship without Thanaton needing to directly teach it to him. Sith Instructors are available to all in the Empire and you can learn from other sources as well. Thanaton does have a tablet with Tulak Hord's lightsaber techniques, which he could allow his student it study.
Nobody is naturally talented in lightsaber dueling arts since birth. Expertise and perfection is gained in lightsaber dueling arts with formal training, practice and interest.

You revealed that Thanaton had access to Tulak Hord's techniques so he wouldn't have studied those himself?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes, she is. That doesn't mean she's more impressive than Wyyrlok though.
She have better feats.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
When did being a mortal suddenly put on a power limit? Especially against other mortals?
You mean to say immortality?

Immortality grants superior chances of survival and defensive potential.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I have no idea. Legend seems to think it makes you godly powerful. He's comparing the Dread Masters to the Ones because of it despite the fact that they've been defeated twice by mere mortals.
This is pathetic reasoning.

Abeloth was also defeated by mere mortals on several fronts. So should we assume that Abeloth is shit?

Dread Masters have dominated and killed many individuals as well.

FreshestSlice

Okay, and now there is no such thing as natural talent....
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You mean to say immortality?

Immortality grants superior chances of survival and defensive potential.

No, I mean where you keep stating, "Against any mortal," in every thread you enter as if being mortal somehow limits the amount of power you can acquire or naturally have.

No, it just means that the combined might of the "mortals" was greater.

Nephthys

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I am not comparing Dread Masters with The Ones in the context of strength. My point is that Dread Masters are so powerful and can perform such kind of actions that they seem to give the vibe of The Ones. They don't seem like conventional Sith, they are beyond conventional Sith in abilities.

Yet they were defeated by Jaric Kaeden and a squad of Republic Special Forces.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
That wasn't a standard lightning burst and I don't think that many can block that kind of power. Nox didn't block that kind of power with his natural strength and capabilities, he tanked it through unnatural strength and capabilities.

I do not understand why this is even a debate. The whole point of story of Darth Nox is that he destroyed a supremely powerful Sith after a massive struggle and that dark sorcery is a pathway to stupendous power progression.

Even so it could be blocked with the Force or maybe even a lightsaber by quite a few in the mythos. You said that no mortal could defend against it, yet I can name dozens most likely.

The point of the story isn't that Thanaton is some godly Sith though. He isn't. He's surpassed by many in the Empire and the way that Nox pwned him only reinforces this. A lot of other Sith in TOR could defeat him.

This is a debate because your claim that no mortal could have blocked Thanaton's attack is utterly retarded.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Thanaton fought his opponents using every means at his disposal including his lightsaber.

Examples:-

http://i44.tinypic.com/2e21pog.jpg

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120813184822/villains/images/3/31/Kel_on_Begeren.jpeg

In the top image, Thanaton spun his blade so fast that it left after-images in its wake.

Just because he did use his lightsaber on occasion doesn't mean it was the deciding factor in a duel. His Force powers are much more developed and he prefers to attack with them instead of his lightsaber. He only resorted to charging Nox after his best Force attacks had failed.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Nobody is naturally talented in lightsaber dueling arts since birth. Expertise and perfection is gained in lightsaber dueling arts with formal training, practice and interest.

You revealed that Thanaton had access to Tulak Hord's techniques so he wouldn't have studied those himself?

Natural talent in certain area's does exist. Lightsaber ability included. Some people, like Dooku, are natural fencers who understand swordplay easily. Skar could be one of these people, and probably is.

It's a possibility. I've never suggested Thanaton is a weak duelist, only that he's never actually done anything to show remarkable talent in that area.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
She have better feats.

Not really, no.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This is pathetic reasoning.

Abeloth was also defeated by mere mortals on several fronts. So should we assume that Abeloth is shit?

Dread Masters have dominated and killed many individuals as well.

Abeloth is pretty shit, yes. estahuh

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Okay, and now there is no such thing as natural talent....
I never stated this.

My point is that I don't recall anybody being able to become an expert in lightsaber dueling arts as a child or with purely with natural instincts. Yes, some people have better aptitude and fitness for martial arts then others but expertise comes with continuous practice.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
No, I mean where you keep stating, "Against any mortal," in every thread you enter as if being mortal somehow limits the amount of power you can acquire or naturally have.
I am not asserting that mortals cannot be super-strong. They can be undoubtedly extremely powerful such as Yoda, Revan, Barsen'thor (3), Thanaton, Hero of Tython and Luke Skywalker.

However, mortals have limited potential; fixed midichlorian count. Obviously very high midichlorian count makes it possible to manipulate the Force in very impressive ways.

However, dark sorcery is a pathway to achieve greater power then mortals can with use of unnatural methods for power progression. Consider the example of Darth Nox; he was a powerful Sith Lord at natural capacity. However, he significantly augmented his power by drawing on the power of several Force spirits which he bind to himself using a powerful sorcery technique. In this manner, Darth Nox acquired strength that was beyond what his midichlorian count would permit.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
No, it just means that the combined might of the "mortals" was greater.
Sorry, I didn't get this point?

FreshestSlice

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I never stated this.

My point is that I don't recall anybody being able to become an expert in lightsaber dueling arts as a child or with purely with natural instincts. Yes, some people have better aptitude and fitness for martial arts then others but expertise comes with continuous practice.

Who denied this? Even so, that's not what you said.

No one argued that anyone is born capable of destroying masters. The point is, just because a student is a master of sabers, it does not guarantee that the master is also. The apprentice's skill is not limited only by their masters knowledge and aptitude.

Thanaton augmenting his strength does not mean that a mortal cannot defeat him, which stating,

suggests. Thanaton being able to defeat Nox before their shown peak does not prove that Nox couldn't defeat Thanaton at the peak of their skill, nor does it show that augments are needed for anyone else to defeat him.

Stating that because the Dread Masters are immortal, they must be well above other Force users, is a fallacy. The fact is that Abeloth lost because her power was not enough to face the power of the mere mortals she faced.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yet they were defeated by Jaric Kaeden and a squad of Republic Special Forces.
We are not aware of the circumstances of this encounter. Do you have details that you may share?

Dread Masters are capable of extraordinary feats and have extraordinary talents. They are obviously not invincible but beyond conventional Sith in capabilities.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Even so it could be blocked with the Force or maybe even a lightsaber by quite a few in the mythos. You said that no mortal could defend against it, yet I can name dozens most likely.
But this is an assumption, nothing concrete.

Have a good look at the power: http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130206051506/starwars/images/a/ab/ThanatonKalligLightning01.jpg

Darth Nox tanked this power by drawing on the overwhelming power of several Force spirits bind to him on top of his own strength and augmented defensive abilities. I am not sure if it possible for a mortal to match this kind of power.

It would be possible for Sith Emperor and his strongest immortal minions to defend against Thanaton's powers but I am not sure about others who rely upon lightsaber and standard applications of the Force.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The point of the story isn't that Thanaton is some godly Sith though. He isn't. He's surpassed by many in the Empire and the way that Nox pwned him only reinforces this. A lot of other Sith in TOR could defeat him.

This is a debate because your claim that no mortal could have blocked Thanaton's attack is utterly retarded.
Thanaton is a supremely powerful Sith nonetheless and his powers are extremely potent. He is among the mightiest of the Sith in history. This isn't my personal assessment, my position is based on official information rather then personal speculation. Defeating him is BIG FREAKING DEAL.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Just because he did use his lightsaber on occasion doesn't mean it was the deciding factor in a duel. His Force powers are much more developed and he prefers to attack with them instead of his lightsaber. He only resorted to charging Nox after his best Force attacks had failed.
Why would his lightsaber dueling skills would not be a deciding factor in a duel? Ok, maybe not in every duel but nothing implies that he sucks in lightsaber dueling arts.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Natural talent in certain area's does exist. Lightsaber ability included. Some people, like Dooku, are natural fencers who understand swordplay easily. Skar could be one of these people, and probably is.
Yes, some people have better aptitude for martial arts then others but expertise comes from continuous training in the end.

Originally posted by Nephthys
It's a possibility. I've never suggested Thanaton is a weak duelist, only that he's never actually done anything to show remarkable talent in that area.
Being one of the greatest warriors among the Sith is sufficient reason for me to assume that Thanaton is a formidable duelist as well. You might disagree but you cannot dismiss my point.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Not really, no.
Apart from illusion talent, I have seen nothing from Wyyrlok III that puts him on par with Exal Kressh.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Abeloth is pretty shit, yes. estahuh
sick

Based

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I take it that you haven't played the flashpoint featuring Dread Masters. My advice is to try it and you will know how stupendously capable sorcerers these individuals were. They give the vibe of The Ones. Do the math.

lmao neither have you considering the Dread Masters show up in a whopping 0 flashpoints.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Who denied this? Even so, that's not what you said.
And what did I said?

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
No one argued that anyone is born capable of destroying masters. The point is, just because a student is a master of sabers, it does not guarantee that the master is also. The apprentice's skill is not limited only by their masters knowledge and aptitude.
Thanaton had access to Tulak Hord's techniques, he would have studied them.

Also, an expert duelist can be a good instructor to his apprentice in matters of lightsaber dueling arts. Yes, apprentice can learn stuff from other people but I am not sure if other Sith are so welcoming or inclined to share their knowledge with apprentices that are not their own.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Thanaton augmenting his strength does not mean that a mortal cannot defeat him, which stating
I am not aware of this kind of development, Thanaton didn't augment his strength with dark sorcery as far as I am aware; he was naturally extremely strong in the Force. Darth Nox had to significantly augment his power with unnatural methods to take on Thanaton.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Thanaton being able to defeat Nox before their shown peak does not prove that Nox couldn't defeat Thanaton at the peak of their skill, nor does it show that augments are needed for anyone else to defeat him.
You are not aware of the ground realities of story of Sith Inquisitor perhaps, I have official information at my disposal.

Darth Nox stood no chance against Darth Thanaton in a fair contest. Heck, Darth Nox stood no chance against Darth Skotia who was serving Darth Thanaton in a fair contest.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Stating that because the Dread Masters are immortal, they must be well above other Force users, is a fallacy. The fact is that Abeloth lost because her power was not enough to face the power of the mere mortals she faced.
No, you are not getting it.

Their is a special operation in SWTOR that is focused on Dread Masters. They demonstrate capabilities and powers that seem to be beyond the understanding of most Sith and Jedi. They can be driven to defeat with Strike Teams only.

Abeloth wasn't lacking in power, she lacked in decision-making potential. In a fair contest, she would have taken any mortal. She could have killed Luke as well but PIS.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Based
lmao neither have you considering the Dread Masters show up in a whopping 0 flashpoints.
Sorry, I meant operation.

I got to 3rd boss in my 2 attempts. In both attempts, teams lost to 3rd boss, ended-up demoralized and disbanded. stick out tongue

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

Oh, the 3rd boss in dread palace is pretty difficult.

Nephthys

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
We are not aware of the circumstances of this encounter. Do you have details that you may share?

Dread Masters are capable of extraordinary feats and have extraordinary talents. They are obviously not invincible but beyond conventional Sith in capabilities.

I believe Battle Meditation was used to counter-act their fear power.

Not all conventional Sith. Sidious and Bane would beat their asses.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
But this is an assumption, nothing concrete.

Have a good look at the power: http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130206051506/starwars/images/a/ab/ThanatonKalligLightning01.jpg

Darth Nox tanked this power by drawing on the overwhelming power of several Force spirits bind to him on top of his own strength and augmented defensive abilities. I am not sure if it possible for a mortal to match this kind of power.

It would be possible for Sith Emperor and his strongest immortal minions to defend against Thanaton's powers but I am not sure about others who rely upon lightsaber and standard applications of the Force.

It's not an assumption, it's an evaluation. Just like you think that Thanaton's attack wouldn't be blocked based on evidence, I think the opposite. It's utterly ridiculous to suggest Thanaton is powerful enough to defeat any mortal opponent with that attack. Yoda, Sidious, Luke, HoT, Barsen'thor, Windu, Revan, Zannah etc etc would laugh at it. They're far more powerful than Thanaton.

Just because it looks cool doesn't mean anything. Gethzerion was pulling down massive lightning bolts from the sky that was melting rock with each strike. THAT's impressive lightning. Vitiate, Sidious, Bane, Malgus, Nyriss and others also possess lightning more powerful than Thanaton's, with enough power to utterly disintegrate opponents.

Nox isn't that powerful. There are many who are more powerful than them. Malgus for instance, is just as or more powerful than her completely naturally. She's only on the 2nd tier when it comes to raw power.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Thanaton is a supremely powerful Sith nonetheless and his powers are extremely potent. He is among the mightiest of the Sith in history. This isn't my personal assessment, my position is based on official information rather then personal speculation. Defeating him is BIG FREAKING DEAL.

Thanaton is truly not nearly as powerful as you give him credit for. He is among the most powerful in history but not very high up the list. I've pointed out of over a dozen just in TOR who eclipse him in power.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Why would his lightsaber dueling skills would not be a deciding factor in a duel? Ok, maybe not in every duel but nothing implies that he sucks in lightsaber dueling arts.

Because he's primarily a Sith Sorcerer who uses the Force in combat instead of a blade.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Yes, some people have better aptitude for martial arts then others but expertise comes from continuous training in the end.

Thanaton is a sorcerer primarily. Most of his training would be in the Force.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Being one of the greatest warriors among the Sith is sufficient reason for me to assume that Thanaton is a formidable duelist as well. You might disagree but you cannot dismiss my point.

I can dismiss anything that doesn't have any basis in fact. There's no evidence that Thanaton was a notably skilled duelist.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Apart from illusion talent, I have seen nothing from Wyyrlok III that puts him on par with Exal Kressh.

Sure, apart from his greatest ability which is clearly superior to anything she has. roll eyes (sarcastic)

I'd say his lightning is superior as well.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Nephthys
I believe Battle Meditation was used to counter-act their fear power.
Interesting

Originally posted by Nephthys
Not all conventional Sith. Sidious and Bane would beat their asses.
If you are considering (DE) Sidious, he might be capable of matching or defeating Dread Masters. However, Bane doesn't stands a chance at all, he doesn't understands the Force in ways like Dread Masters do.

Dread Masters were so powerful that they couldn't be controlled by anybody, not even by whole civilizations/factions. Republic lost whole fleets to them in battles, Strike Teams were dispatched to assassinate these monsters on the ground.

The only individual who have managed to keep Dread Masters subservient or under check is Sith Emperor, no one else. This is the greatest feat of Sith Emperor and arguably greatest display of power in the mythos from a single individual.

Originally posted by Nephthys
It's not an assumption, it's an evaluation. Just like you think that Thanaton's attack wouldn't be blocked based on evidence, I think the opposite. It's utterly ridiculous to suggest Thanaton is powerful enough to defeat any mortal opponent with that attack. Yoda, Sidious, Luke, HoT, Barsen'thor, Windu, Revan, Zannah etc etc would laugh at it. They're far more powerful than Thanaton.
If Thanaton could be killed so easily or his powers could be blocked easily, why the hell Darth Nox had to go to extreme lengths to subdue him?

Also, I wouldn't assert that the individuals that you mentioned are far more powerful then Thanaton. Utterly misplaced assumption on your part. Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia promotes only Sith Emperor and Thanaton as supremely powerful Sith Lords. You are out of your mind to underestimate Thanaton.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Just because it looks cool doesn't mean anything. Gethzerion was pulling down massive lightning bolts from the sky that was melting rock with each strike. THAT's impressive lightning. Vitiate, Sidious, Bane, Malgus, Nyriss and others also possess lightning more powerful than Thanaton's, with enough power to utterly disintegrate opponents.
Its coolness is not the point, its potency is. Thanation is evidently among the greatest practitioners of lightning application in the mythos. Many years before this event, Thanaton could summon lightning bolts so lethal that he could destroy structures made of metal and concrete with them easily. At his prime, he could summon lightning bolts so lethal that he could one-shot even powerful Force-users with them. I have never seen anybody formulating a vortex of destructive energy with lightning barrage during combat situation like Thanaton did. When Darth Nox was subjected to bombardment of this much intensity, he managed to tank it by drawing on the overwhelming power of several Force spirits bind to him on top of his sorcery-enhanced body. Now what makes you think that any mortal can tank such kind of bombardment? Do you think that any mortal have superior defensive abilities then stupendously augmented Darth Nox?

By the way, Sith Emperor performed more impressive feats with lightning then Gethzerion, thunder storms engulfing entire Dromund Kaas, were his doing. He is arguably the greatest practitioner of lightning application in the mythos. I rank Thanaton second to him in potency factor in lightning application.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Nox isn't that powerful. There are many who are more powerful than them. Malgus for instance, is just as or more powerful than her completely naturally. She's only on the 2nd tier when it comes to raw power.
If natural strength is considered, Nox is definitely heavily outgunned by some of the greatest Sith including Malgus. However, if Nox's 'sorcery driven stupendous augmentation' is considered, he realistically outguns everybody else barring Sith Emperor and perhaps Dread Masters.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Thanaton is truly not nearly as powerful as you give him credit for. He is among the most powerful in history but not very high up the list. I've pointed out of over a dozen just in TOR who eclipse him in power.
I would have believed you if I haven't had access to Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia. I count two Sith Lords being labeled as supremely powerful in this sourcebook:

1. Sith Emperor
2. Darth Thanaton

Then I read story of Sith Inquisitor and I was baffled to learn that Darth Nox had to wield combined might of several Force spirits on top of his own strengths to subdue Thanaton, hype factor of the latter Sith totally justified.

In the same sourcebook, many other great individuals have been mentioned but none have been touted as being supremely powerful apart from the above two. Yes, Darth Nox can be counted as one on logical basis. So what implications do these revelations have for the mythos?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Because he's primarily a Sith Sorcerer who uses the Force in combat instead of a blade.
He considers both options, my friend. I have presented evidence.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Thanaton is a sorcerer primarily. Most of his training would be in the Force.
So Inquisitors cannot be expert swordsmen?

Originally posted by Nephthys
I can dismiss anything that doesn't have any basis in fact. There's no evidence that Thanaton was a notably skilled duelist.
Oh yes, his apprentice became an expert swordsmen out of thin air.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Sure, apart from his greatest ability which is clearly superior to anything she has. roll eyes (sarcastic)

What exactly is his greatest ability?

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'd say his lightning is superior as well.
Based on what? Kressh's lightning overcame lightsaber-based defenses of Thanaton and disintegrated his lightsaber in the process, effectively disarming him. In addition, Kressh filled an entire room with her lightning bolts, destroying structures made of metal and concrete within it.

Emperordmb

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
By the way, Sith Emperor performed more impressive feats with lightning then Gethzerion, thunder storms engulfing entire Dromund Kaas, were his doing. He is arguably the greatest practitioner of lightning application in the mythos. I rank Thanaton second to him in potency factor in lightning application
Bane and Sidious both have more impressive lightning than Thanaton.

And don't even get me ****ing started on the Son of Mortis.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Bane and Sidious both have more impressive lightning than Thanaton.

And don't even get me ****ing started on the Son of Mortis.
Read my entire post above and then come back to me. Nobody is talking about Son of Mortis here.

Nephthys

If nobody else, at least Nox is better at lightning than Thanaton, surely. erm

Emperordmb

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Read my entire post above and then come back to me. Nobody is talking about Son of Mortis here.
Nox ****ing tanked it casually, so saying that demonstrates a limit as to who can defend against it is laughable.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Nox ****ing tanked it casually, so saying that demonstrates a limit as to who can defend against it is laughable.
http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130815124007/transformers-legends/images/c/c4/Triple-facepalm.jpg

Once again, read my previous posts properly and then get back to me.

Nephthys

You only rank him so highly because he's called supremely power that one time. Which is hilariously awful logic.

Emperordmb

You completely missed my point. You are suggesting that because Nox tanked his lightning with the aid of spirits that that is the absolute limit of who can defend against his power. Nox however very casually defended against Thanaton's most powerful attack. This in no way indicates a limit as to who can defend against Thanaton's lightning. It's like saying that Sidious stomped Kolar, but nobody not on Sidious's level could hope to defeat Kolar.

One-shotting powerful force users with lightning is no unique feat either. A feat that Sidious, Bane, Nyriss, Dooku, and Malgus are all perfectly capable of.

The perpetual lightning storms on Dromuund Kaas were a result of several rituals Vitiate performed over the years, not Vitiate channeling his force lightning through the sky. In any case I have no idea what the **** you are trying to prove for Thanaton by extolling the virtues of Vitiate's lightning.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Nephthys
You only rank him so highly because he's called supremely power that one time. Which is hilariously awful logic.
WTF? This statement makes no sense at all. Absolutely hilarious.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
You completely missed my point. You are suggesting that because Nox tanked his lightning with the aid of spirits that that is the absolute limit of who can defend against his power. Nox however very casually defended against Thanaton's most powerful attack. This in no way indicates a limit as to who can defend against Thanaton's lightning. It's like saying that Sidious stomped Kolar, but nobody not on Sidious's level could hope to defeat Kolar.
I am not sure if we can determine the 'minimum criteria' of successful defense against Thanaton's most potent lightning barrage. What is known is that he could literally one-shot even 'powerful' Force-users with normal bursts of lightning and he really upped the game against Darth Nox during their final confrontation. Darth Nox, however, tanked power of such intensity/ferocity by drawing on the strength of several Force spirits which is stupendous level of augmentation; to assume that any mortal can match Nox's defensive abilities at this point is asinine and unfounded.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
One-shotting powerful force users with lightning is no unique feat either. A feat that Sidious, Bane, Nyriss, Dooku, and Malgus are all perfectly capable of.
Mention the names of 'powerful' Force-users whom Sidious, Bane and Dooku managed to one-shot with lightning bolts.

Nyriss had limits but Malgus have done well undoubtedly. Malgus is the only individual in this list who comes close to Thanaton's proficiency in lightning application.

Emperordmb

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Mention the names of 'powerful' Force-users whom Sidious, Bane and Dooku managed to one-shot with lightning bolts.
Yoda, Farfalla (BMed), Cognus, Anakin.

Now who are the 'powerful' people Thanaton has one shotted?
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Nyriss had limits but Malgus have done well undoubtedly. Malgus is the only individual in this list who comes close to Thanaton's proficiency in lightning application.
If you are seriously implying that Sidious and Bane don't come anywhere close to Thanaton's proficiency with lightning then I have one question for you...
watch?v=3_8DUsl1Ea4

Nephthys

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
What is known is that he could literally one-shot even 'powerful' Force-users with normal bursts of lightning

Like who?

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

he means Teneb Kel from vision.

Emperordmb

WTF? So he's saying Thanaton oneshotting his past self in a vision is insanely impressive?

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Yoda, Farfalla (BMed), Cognus, Anakin.
Yoda? Yes, but Yoda apparently got caught off-guard.

Farfalla? He is not a powerful Jedi

Cognus? She wasn't a formidable Force-user during the era of Bane

Anakin? Not directly

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Now who are the 'powerful' people Thanaton has one shotted?
Himself, in a vision.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
If you are seriously implying that Sidious and Bane don't come anywhere close to Thanaton's proficiency with lightning then I have one question for you...
watch?v=3_8DUsl1Ea4
Both are among the greatest practitioners of lightning application and have impressive feats with lightning application. Sidious is closer to Thanaton then Bane.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
WTF? So he's saying Thanaton oneshotting his past self in a vision is insanely impressive?
Yes.

Thanaton tolerated lightning bursts of Exal Kressh back then who is also among the most formidable practitioners of lightning I have yet seen.

Nephthys

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
If you are considering (DE) Sidious, he might be capable of matching or defeating Dread Masters. However, Bane doesn't stands a chance at all, he doesn't understands the Force in ways like Dread Masters do.

Dread Masters were so powerful that they couldn't be controlled by anybody, not even by whole civilizations/factions. Republic lost whole fleets to them in battles, Strike Teams were dispatched to assassinate these monsters on the ground.

The only individual who have managed to keep Dread Masters subservient or under check is Sith Emperor, no one else. This is the greatest feat of Sith Emperor and arguably greatest display of power in the mythos from a single individual.

Well maybe not all of them at once. I doubt anyone outside of the One's or Nihilus could defeat 6 Sith at the level of the Dread Masters at once by themselves. But individually Sidious and Bane are comfortably above them.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
If Thanaton could be killed so easily or his powers could be blocked easily, why the hell Darth Nox had to go to extreme lengths to subdue him?

Also, I wouldn't assert that the individuals that you mentioned are far more powerful then Thanaton. Utterly misplaced assumption on your part. Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia promotes only Sith Emperor and Thanaton as supremely powerful Sith Lords. You are out of your mind to underestimate Thanaton.

Because Nox is only a moderately powerful Sith in their own power (not even more powerful than Zash tbh) and needed overwhelming power to take on Thanaton's powerful rituals.

http://www.bubblews.com/assets/images/news/565146340_1385946271.jpg

Dude, seriously Thanaton is not that great. You put WAY too much credit into that one fricking quote calling him supremely powerful. Any of the people I named would own him like Nox did. In feats and accolades they are much more powerful than him. Just because the same word is used to describe Vitiate and Thanaton doesn't make them in any way comparable. Vitiate is laughably far above a peon like Thanaton. Your belief in Thanaton's power is bordering on the delusional.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Its coolness is not the point, its potency is. Thanation is evidently among the greatest practitioners of lightning application in the mythos. Many years before this event, Thanaton could summon lightning bolts so lethal that he could destroy structures made of metal and concrete with them easily. At his prime, he could summon lightning bolts so lethal that he could one-shot even powerful Force-users with them. I have never seen anybody formulating a vortex of destructive energy with lightning barrage during combat situation like Thanaton did. When Darth Nox was subjected to bombardment of this much intensity, he managed to tank it by drawing on the overwhelming power of several Force spirits bind to him on top of his sorcery-enhanced body. Now what makes you think that any mortal can tank such kind of bombardment? Do you think that any mortal have superior defensive abilities then stupendously augmented Darth Nox?

By the way, Sith Emperor performed more impressive feats with lightning then Gethzerion, thunder storms engulfing entire Dromund Kaas, were his doing. He is arguably the greatest practitioner of lightning application in the mythos. I rank Thanaton second to him in potency factor in lightning application.

roll eyes (sarcastic)

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
What exactly is his greatest ability?

Illusions.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Based on what? Kressh's lightning overcame lightsaber-based defenses of Thanaton and disintegrated his lightsaber in the process, effectively disarming him. In addition, Kressh filled an entire room with her lightning bolts, destroying structures made of metal and concrete within it.

Wyyrlok was matching Darth Krayt's lightning.

Nephthys

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Both are among the greatest practitioners of lightning application and have impressive feats with lightning application. Sidious is closer to Thanaton then Bane.

That you seriously think Thanaton is more powerful than Sidious or Bane is truly mind-boggling. erm

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Yes.

Thanaton tolerated lightning bursts of Exal Kressh back then who is also among the most formidable practitioners of lightning I have yet seen.

She disintegrated his lightsaber and pwned him with it. erm

Q99

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Jadus is Sith Inquisitor and he have incredible Force abilities.

Yes, but plenty of powerful sith don't use sorcery. We don't know *any* sorcery feats from him.

Seriously, you're saying people who haven't done any known sorcery are better than known master sorcerers because of era.

That's what happens when bright lights are spun around. I've seen ravers with glow sticks who can pull that off.

Fighting evenly with a guy who has killed 4 masters in 2 seconds as well as beaten down Cade Skywalker is a very high level feat.

Thanaton is famous for his force powers, not his saber skills, and has never faced someone as strong as Krayt- or Wyyrlok- in sabers.

What is with you attributing skills outside someone's specialty to them?

Someone who's powerful in one area is not necessarily strong in another. Jadus has shown no sorcery. Thanaton fights mostly with lightning, and back when he did use the saber he was no powerhouse with it.

Wyyrlok has killed an immortal before.

He destroyed a legendary sorcerer in a sorcery duel, and held his own against a Sith Lord stronger than Thanaton.

If you're not going to acknowledge feats, what's the point of debating?

.... Kressh has very little feats, and most of them against a young Teneb who's not even near as strong as he'd become. Wyyrlok has fought two people who could be rightfully called the strongest of their era, destroyed one of them, and provided a hard fight for the other.

You have weird standards.

Nephthys

I'd suggest not bothering Q. He seems to think Thanaton is more powerful than Sidious or Luke. no expression

Q99

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'd suggest not bothering Q. He seems to think Thanaton is more powerful than Sidious or Luke. no expression

He also seems to think 'Ms. showed up in one comic and fought no-one of note except for Thanaton's rookie form,' Exal Kressh is stronger than the second best of a competitive and learned era.

Nephthys

She was pretty powerful though. Not that powerful, but she was legit.

Astor Ebligis

Autoplay is against the rules. Stop.

Nephthys

That's a really tough quest. I'd need to think about a few placements. Hang on.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

I'd suggest making a thread for it thumb up

Astor Ebligis

You have five minutes. Fail me and I will be forced to flood your inbox with hentai.

Nephthys

Sith:

1. Vitiate 10
2. Malgus 9
3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8. Dread Masters (Individually) 9
9. Nox 9
10. Jadus 9
11. First Son 9
12. Second Emperor's Wrath 8
13. Baras 8
14. Scourge 8
15. Marr 8
16. Lord Vivicar 7
17. Thanaton 7
18. Fulminis 7
19. Angral 6
20. Tormen 6

Nephthys

I'll only do 10 for the Jedi, since I know less of them.

Jedi:

1. Hero of Tython 10
2. Barsen'thor 9
3. Revan 9
4. Satele Shan 8
5. Jaric Kaedan 8
6. Tol Braga 8
7. Aryn Leneer 7
8. Ven Zallow 7
9. Kellian Jarro 6
10. Unidentified Zabrak Jedi 6

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

Oric Traless http://r26.imgfast.net/users/2613/36/14/96/smiles/752783128.gif

Nephthys

Oh yeah and Gnost. I guess he's number 10 instead of horn dude.

Nephthys

Originally posted by Grievousfreek
What did the zabrak jedi do u fuking hore

He collapsed two large buildings with the Force.

It says a lot for the strength of the era that he's still so far down the list.

Emperordmb

No PT, you are the one in Neph's dungeon remember?

Neph is still ****ing your little boy pussy to this day.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

Forgot Master Wyellett too, neph http://r26.imgfast.net/users/2613/36/14/96/smiles/4003554450.gif

Nephthys

Oh yeah. I'm tired, who cares.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

unacceptable http://r26.imgfast.net/users/2613/36/14/96/smiles/4206627644.gif

Your failure is noted

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/194/104/never-go-full-retard-tee_design.png

Nephthys

Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
FFS Neph!

Who cares. Bow before the power of the greatest age of Jedi and Sith power.

Q99

Originally posted by Nephthys
Sith:

1. Vitiate 10
2. Malgus 9
3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8. Dread Masters (Individually) 9
9. Nox 9

Huh, I'd have put Nox above the Masters.

Sinious

Originally posted by Q99
Huh, I'd have put Nox above the Masters.

I don't think so. A single Dread Master was probably stronger than Malgus and equal to Jadus who are both stronger than Nox.

carthage

Do the dread masters have any feats at all?

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

Originally posted by carthage
Do the dread masters have any feats at all?

Dominating fleets

Q99

Yes, I meant vs any one of them, rather than vs all of them collectively.

Originally posted by Sinious
I don't think so. A single Dread Master was probably stronger than Malgus and equal to Jadus who are both stronger than Nox.

Individually? I'm not sure if I agree on that either.

They have a great anti-fleet ability, and individually they're no slouches, but a Jedi strike team captured all 6 together.

carthage

In other words the Dread masters like all TOR character Sih clones are all hype and no feats. No wonder SW legend loves them so much

Nephthys

Lawl. The Dread Masters were ****ing insanely powerful. A single one mind controlled an army. They could warp reality, teleport, bring back the dead and wipe out entire fleets.

Sinious

Originally posted by Q99

Individually? I'm not sure if I agree on that either.

They have a great anti-fleet ability, and individually they're no slouches, but a Jedi strike team captured all 6 together.

Their in game combat skills are insane and it takes a lot of very powerful force users to kill them individually.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Sith:

1. Vitiate 10
2. Malgus 9
3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8. Dread Masters (Individually) 9
9. Nox 9
10. Jadus 9
11. First Son 9
12. Second Emperor's Wrath 8
13. Baras 8
14. Scourge 8
15. Marr 8
16. Lord Vivicar 7
17. Thanaton 7
18. Fulminis 7
19. Angral 6
20. Tormen 6

I have to disagree a little. This is how I see it:

1. Vitiate 10
2,3,4,5,6,7 Dread Masters
8 Jadus
9 Malgus
10 First Son
11 Second Wrath
12 Scourge
13 Nox
14 Marr
15 Baras

can't be sure after 15

carthage

Thats cute. Do they have any feats or are they just more "supremely powerful" all hype and no substance TOR fodder?

Nephthys

Sure, mentally dominating an army doesn't count as a feat. Seems legit. thumb up

Why am I even bothering with you.

Q99

Oh, it definitely counts, but it's also with force items.

Nephthys

I don't think so.

Also, merely drawing on one of the Dread Masters power let a dude obliterate a huge statue with TK. Feat.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

yeah, what force items? At Oricon they dominated the republic and imperial fleets on the fly.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

Originally posted by Nephthys
Also, merely drawing on one of the Dread Masters power let a dude obliterate a huge statue with TK. Feat.

really?

Q99

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
yeah, what force items? At Oricon they dominated the republic and imperial fleets on the fly.

The Phobis devices, the things that make them the Dread Masters.

Nephthys

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
really?

Well, huge is relative. It was pretty big.

Originally posted by Q99
The Phobis devices, the things that make them the Dread Masters.

They only studied it to learn it's secrets. They don't need it for their power.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

Originally posted by Q99
The Phobis devices, the things that make them the Dread Masters.

Well yeah, but using that as an argument against their power is like using Vitiate's ritual on Nathema as an argument against his power. They didn't use them like Kun uses his amulets.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

Originally posted by Nephthys
Well, huge is relative. It was pretty big.

Show me teh feat.

Nephthys

BKwuoBpHOL0

2.15

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

Urgh, this particular computer is shitty with detecting forum videos in every way. Would u mind just sending me the youtube link?

Q99

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Well yeah, but using that as an argument against their power is like using Vitiate's ritual on Nathema as an argument against his power. They didn't use them like Kun uses his amulets.

A solid point. Conceded.

psmith81992

Wyrrlok beating a sith who just got his life back after thousands upon thousands of years isn't extremely impressive. Thanaton's feats in the game appear more impressive than Wyrrlok's illusions and/or sith lighting.

Nephthys

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Urgh, this particular computer is shitty with detecting forum videos in every way. Would u mind just sending me the youtube link?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKwuoBpHOL0

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

That's pretty good, considering he was only drawing on a fraction of one of the dread master's power.

And arent Esh-kha non force sensitive?

Nephthys

Yeas.

Also later one of the Esh-ka draws on their power and is able to kill 3 troopers with fear effects too.

Oh and apparently the Emperor's Wrath is able to resist their power:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x45sppzUo0I

1.05+

****ing badass.

Q99

Originally posted by psmith81992
Wyrrlok beating a sith who just got his life back after thousands upon thousands of years isn't extremely impressive.

It's not like his skills would've degraded. And there's still the Krayt fight.

His illusions of throwing huge amounts of lava around which can really kill? I'd say that's more flashy....

Not that flash is the most deadly part. Memory Walk could cripple or kill Thanaton, and there's the matter of Wyyrlok's sabers.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

Darth Nox can also resist it, IIRC.

Sinious

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeas.

Also later one of the Esh-ka draws on their power and is able to kill 3 troopers with fear effects too.

Oh and apparently the Emperor's Wrath is able to resist their power:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x45sppzUo0I

1.05+

****ing badass.

Wow I wish I chose that option. Most impressive.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Nephthys
Well maybe not all of them at once. I doubt anyone outside of the One's or Nihilus could defeat 6 Sith at the level of the Dread Masters at once by themselves. But individually Sidious and Bane are comfortably above them.
An argument can be made for Sidious based on official data, not Bane. Even then, Dread Masters seem to understand the Force in ways unlike any Sith I have seen yet. Maybe Sith Emperor have comparable command of the Force, I can't say the same about anybody else in the mythos.

Also, I am not sure if Nihilus can take Dread Masters. The latter are corporeally immortal beings and I don't think Force drain can undo that.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Because Nox is only a moderately powerful Sith in their own power (not even more powerful than Zash tbh) and needed overwhelming power to take on Thanaton's powerful rituals.
Their is no such thing as "moderately powerful." Powerful is powerful. Yes, more powerful, very powerful, extremely powerful, supremely powerful, are right choice of words. Even then, some sources may just contain word powerful to describe an individual whom we may regard as extremely powerful based on feats.

Anyways, that Nox was heavily outclassed in power irrespective of his performance in the (deadly) Sith trials despite all odds being stacked against him and being a powerful Force-user in general, speaks volumes about quality of Sith in the Empire. Nox was lesser then Skotia who in turn was lesser then Thanaton, such was the power gap. So yes, I do rate Thanation very highly because I don't think that Nox is a chump in comparison to other Force-users even at natural capacity on the whole. Official assessment is that Darth Thanaton is absolutely "supremely powerful," no other explanation makes sense.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Dude, seriously Thanaton is not that great. You put WAY too much credit into that one fricking quote calling him supremely powerful. Any of the people I named would own him like Nox did. In feats and accolades they are much more powerful than him. Just because the same word is used to describe Vitiate and Thanaton doesn't make them in any way comparable. Vitiate is laughably far above a peon like Thanaton. Your belief in Thanaton's power is bordering on the delusional.
Thanaton is not that great? Based on what exactly?

So I should disregard an official quote because it doesn't sits well with your personal perception? Makes no sense.

Any of the people you named would supposedly own Thanation, is just a supposition, not an established fact. I expect better reasoning from you at-least. I am not sure how even Revan would perform against Thanaton if both are at their prime, all I can do is speculate and I believe that this would be a very tough fight for both in which both can win and loose (Broad mindedness, Neph, coz someone being labeled as supremely powerful in an encyclopedic medium, specks volumes about his strength).

Yes, Sith Emperor likely eclipses everybody else excluding Dread Masters but "supremely powerful" accolade haven't lost its value if assigned to Thanaton, it just shows where he stands if TIERS are introduced to rank characters.

Originally posted by Nephthys
roll eyes (sarcastic)

Oh wow, a wall of wank.

Yes, his lightning is powerful but it is nowhere near the power of some other Sith. Destroying metal structures and one-shotting Force users is good, but still far below the greatest applications of the technique.

Yes, I do think a few mortal's can tank that attack. Jacen for instance can deflect turbolaser fire with his Force powers. And Zannah defended against a planet-wide Force Storm with hundreds of forks of lightning, generated by dozens of Sith Lords. When she was a child. Yoda, Windu and the Hero of Tython defended against the Force Lightning of the two most powerful Sith Lords in existence. Revan casually absorbed Nyriss' charged lightning. Cade Skywalker defended against an entire building exploding around him. And lastly Darth Jadus protected his capital ship from exploding. All of these people are mere mortals, and all of them could block Thanaton's lightning.
So facts are now a 'wall of wank' because you didn't like them?

I am not dismissing the fact that incredibly powerful Jedi and Sith have formidable defensive abilities and would be able to tank many offensive applications of the Force and shit. It is though unclear what kind of strength is needed to tank a power of that much intensity which Thanaton unleashed on Nox to destroy him. Nox managed to tank it with unnatural boost in power and use of dark sorcery and this isn't normal approach to tank a Force power in the mythos. In addition, a vision revealed that Thanaton can casually destroy strong individuals with his lightning bursts at his prime, and he really upped the game with his powers while confronting Nox for the final time. So I am not sure that most can handle that kind of charged power, after all, dark sorcery represents extremely deadly use of the Force and it is not often possible to handle sorcery based attacks with natural ways. Just look at the example of clash between Bane and Zannah, Bane faltered when dark sorcery based offense came in to play and Bane could do nothing about it. And Bane is f****** strong. Now don't tell me that sorcery have no effect on lightning, it does. Sorcery can be used to for any purpose, to augment standard applications, to manipulate Force in ways not possible with standard applications. That wasn't a normal burst of lightning from Thanation, that was effin sorcery at work.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The Emperor created those storms through rituals and by corrupting the atmosphere of the planet. It isn't something he creates with his power through conscious effort, like Gethzerion did. Vitiates lightning is the greatest of any Sith, yes, but not for that reason.
Rituals require strength/power to be performed successfully. Terminology doesn't excuses use of strength from such acts. Rituals make it possible to manipulate the Force in ways that may not be possible during lets say combat situations because rituals require greater focus, sometimes total focus to be performed successfully. That Emperor was able to corrupt and influence the environment of an entire world (i.e. Dromund Kaas) with his dark practices, is a very good indication of his enormous power in general.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No.

Nox has many peers and superior's. Just because his power was augmented doesn't automatically put him above every one else's natural strength. Vivicar was amped off of the power of hundreds of Jedi Masters yet still got pwned by Barsen'thor. Suggesting he's more powerful than Anakin or Luke in sheer power is insane.
Nox doesn't have "many" peers and superiors, after being stupendously augmented with dark sorcery. I am not sure what Vivicar was doing, siphoning energy from lot of people doesn't necessarily grants an individual extraordinary boost in power, what it actually does is that it makes an individual much harder to kill/defeat then norm (endurance enhancement). BioWare explained this matter well with examples of Darth Malak and Darth Ikoral. Heck, Darth Sidious began to drain lot of people on Byss before falling in the Battle of Endor and if he were to get power boost from that feat, it would not have been possible to topple him like Vader did and Sidious would have one-shot anybody.

Nox wasn't siphoning energy of other individuals to enhance his endurance, he was doing something else; he bind powerful Force spirits to him by using Force-walking ritual technique and was able to augment his strength (in all aspects) by drawing from the energies of Force spirits surging within him. He managed to bind 6 Force spirits to him in total and became awfully strong at that point, stronger then any mortal perhaps.

About Force-walking ritual:

Three hundred years after Tulak Hord, the Sith Ergast tried to recreate the ritual the Dark Lord used to devour the spirits of his enemies at Yn and Chabosh. In its place, he discovered what he called the ritual of Force-walking. Requiring a Sith of great strength of will, the ritual of Force-walking allows the user to bind the restless ghosts of dead Sith to himself. Once the ghosts are bound, the ritualist may draw from their power, channeling it into a powerful exertion of Force energy against his enemies. (Taken from SWTOR)

Get your facts straight, Neph.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Nephthys
Who freaking cares? no expression

Choice of descriptive language is interchangeable. Him being called supremely powerful is no better than being called highly powerful or devastatingly powerful or terrifyingly powerful. As I said above, the Sith Emperor and Thanaton being called the same word means nothing. If Thanaton was anywhere close to Vitiates power he would have dominated the Dark Council years ago. He would be considered the most powerful Sith other than Vitiate, not Jadus. He's nowhere near that powerful. His hyper factor is utterly below what you seem to think it is. He'd barely even made it on to the Dark Council as of TOR. If he was more powerful than Malgus, who became the ****ing Emperor, he'd have done so decades before the game. And lets not even dignify your frankly idiotic (no offense) idea that he's greater than Sidious or Luke.

Thanaton being called supremely powerful doesn't make him better than ANY notable Sith in the mythos.
I never dismissed the possibility of Thanaton having peers and superiors in power factor, my point is that he is among the strongest individuals in the mythos in natural aspect just like Malgus, Marr, Jadus, Revan, Hero of Tython, Satele Shan, Barsen'thor (3), Luke and Yoda.

Every Sith have different dynamics, Thanaton grew in power with passage of time and proved his worth in battles and tasked to eliminate powerful Exal Kressh by Sith Emperor himself which was beyond the capability of many Sith.

More;

Born Teneb Kel, the Lord of the Sith known as Darth Thanaton rose to prominence in the years before the Treaty of Coruscant, in an Empire newly reintroduced to the galaxy. The apprentice of a disgraced master, the young Thanaton was forced to fight for his place in the Empire. His love of Sith culture and tradition was reinforced by the knowledge that power is not something given, but something fought for. He learned to despise and distrust the machinations of Sith like Lord Zash, who eschew Sith customs in favor of their own deceptive power gains, and to admire the sentinels of Sith history, embodied in the ancient Sith Lords Ajunta Pall, Marka Ragnos, Tulak Hord and Naga Sadow. (Taken from SWTOR)

Thanaton represented an ideal Sith Lord, an individual who would gain prominence through personal strength and just not political schemes and short-cuts. He arrived in the Dark Council on the basis of his personal strength and accomplishments, excellent. Sith spent their entire lives plotting to ascend to the Dark Council but few would get the opportunity so becoming a Dark Council member is a major accomplishment for any Sith in the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire.

Malgus, is also a self-made Sith, yes, undoubtedly one of the strongest I have yet seen. And his attempt to become Sith Emperor is something to behold, it shows how strong he was even though he didn't last against rivals in Dark Council but still he had the mantle for a short while. I believe that elites of the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire had the potential to be greatest dark lords outside the Empire but Sith Emperor overshadowed them. Malgus also got an opportunity when Sith Emperor was not in the picture. He had what it takes to be an Emperor but their were other extremely powerful rivals, once again this shows how much quality existed in the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire at higher end of its hierarchy.

In short, Malgus, Thanaton, Marr and Jadus are all examples of self-made super-strong Sith. And I respect them all and debate in favor of these Sith in many topics.

Originally posted by Nephthys
What, of two times he used a lightsaber? Oh, what fantastic evidence. No fool, Thanaton relies on his Force powers in combat. In all his battles against Nox he started the fight with the Force.
Did I say that he didn't use the Force? I am pointing out that he use any means necessary to defeat his opponents.

He even wears special gear to have advantage in combat situations like powerful Sith warriors:

The armor of Darth Thanaton incorporates life-support devices and combat stimulant injectors to give him edge in battle. (Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)

Yes, Thanaton specializes in use of the Force but this doesn't means he sucks in lightsaber dueling arts and not behaves like Sith warrior. I don't believe in stereotypes about specialties of individuals.

Originally posted by Nephthys
They can. But their focus is on Force powers. Your argument was that rigorous training led to lightsaber skill, so I pointed out that Thanaton was an Inquisitor and would spend most of his training on the Force.
Thanaton learned whatever he felt would benefit him. What do you think he was doing with Tulak Hord's holocrons?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Glad you agree. thumb up

No, your point makes no sense.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Illusions.
Already noted. Anything else? No

Originally posted by Nephthys
Wyyrlok was matching Darth Krayt's lightning.
Impressive. Now how good is Krayt's lightning?

Originally posted by Nephthys
That you seriously think Thanaton is more powerful than Sidious or Bane is truly mind-boggling. erm

Their is good possibility of Thanaton being stronger then Bane but I never stated that he is stronger then Sidious. I pointed out that he seems to be more proficient in use of lightning application then both.

Originally posted by Nephthys
She disintegrated his lightsaber and pwned him with it. erm

Yes, but Thanaton (prime) outright eliminated Teneb Kel (his former-self) with a casual burst of lightning. Notice the difference.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Q99
Yes, but plenty of powerful sith don't use sorcery. We don't know *any* sorcery feats from him.
I understand, Sith Inquisitors tend to be sorcerers as well. Though I acknowledge that not much is known about Jadus in this field at the moment.

Originally posted by Q99
Seriously, you're saying people who haven't done any known sorcery are better than known master sorcerers because of era.
See above

Their are other names; Darth Ikoral; Vodal Kressh; more. Reconstituted ancient Sith Empire had made progress in all areas, including in the field of Sith sorcery and I won't be surprised that this Empire produced many experts in the field of sorcery. Dread Masters are greatest examples of significant progress made in the field of Sith sorcery since the times of Andeddu. Heck, Sith Emperor himself is an excellent example.

Originally posted by Q99
That's what happens when bright lights are spun around. I've seen ravers with glow sticks who can pull that off.
Excuse me?

Thanaton's lightsaber seemed to exist at all points in that image; it is a depiction of after-images from the weapon being spun so fast. Let us stick to projections in the lore instead of relying on real world based developments.

Force-users are superhuman in capabilities, they can react and move much faster then normal humans. And Thanaton is among the greatest of the Force-users, his speed and reflexes would be so damn higher then a normal human that it isn't even worth mentioning. Use logic and common sense, Q99.

Originally posted by Q99
Fighting evenly with a guy who has killed 4 masters in 2 seconds as well as beaten down Cade Skywalker is a very high level feat.
Yes, indeed. Wyyrlok III is a formidable duelist without a doubt. He might pose a threat to Thanaton in this aspect, I accept.

Originally posted by Q99
Thanaton is famous for his force powers, not his saber skills, and has never faced someone as strong as Krayt- or Wyyrlok- in sabers.
Once again, you are stuck in the mind-frame of superiority of Krayt and Wyyrlok III as if no one competes with them. Thanaton have studied Tulak Hord's techniques and have trained an apprentice in all aspects of the Force who turned out to be a legendary duelist. Thanaton himself have fended off attacks from Exal Kressh who is also an overwhelming duelist and have killed multiple individuals at times with just her dueling abilities. On top of all of this, Thanaton is recognized as one of the greatest warriors of the Empire. You should concentrate on the big picture. Not every aspect of skill of an individual have to be spoon-fed to you for you to understand or is it?

Performance in lightsaber dueling arts depends upon command of the Force of an individual in its entirety. Revan isn't touted to be an expert swordman but he will shit on many due to his superior command of the Force. Similar are the dynamics of Thanaton.

Originally posted by Q99
What is with you attributing skills outside someone's specialty to them?
See my response to Neph on this matter. Stereotyping is not a good thing.

Originally posted by Q99
Someone who's powerful in one area is not necessarily strong in another. Jadus has shown no sorcery. Thanaton fights mostly with lightning, and back when he did use the saber he was no powerhouse with it.
Thanaton uses any means necessary to overcome his opponents. He has many tricks up his sleeve, not just mastery in lightning. He is one of the strongest sorcerers to have ever existed. For the rest, see above.

Originally posted by Q99
Wyyrlok has killed an immortal before.
Focus on the context, don't make baseless claims.

Immortality have different facets; corporeal; essence transfer; Force spirit and vice versa.

Andeddu had essence transfer and that didn't help him. In-fact, essence transfer is the most risky and vulnerable aspect of immortality.

Originally posted by Q99
He destroyed a legendary sorcerer in a sorcery duel, and held his own against a Sith Lord stronger than Thanaton.
And then you expect me to take you seriously? The entire information about progression of Sith and facts about Thanaton evaporated out of your head....Great.

Let me list them in brief:-

1. Sith had come far off since the days of Andeddu in all aspects of practices.
2. Thanaton is officially a "supremely" powerful Force-user, something that Andeddu is not. Thanaton thrived in the most competitive setting a Sith may find himself in the galactic history, he is much more tried, tested and hardened then Andeddu, Wyyrlok III and Krayt.

For details, you can see my previous posts.

Originally posted by Q99
If you're not going to acknowledge feats, what's the point of debating?
Its ironic that you are asking me this. You should pose this question to yourself instead. I am considering everything but you are stuck in blind worship of Wyyrlok III and Krayt, like always.

Originally posted by Q99
.... Kressh has very little feats, and most of them against a young Teneb who's not even near as strong as he'd become. Wyyrlok has fought two people who could be rightfully called the strongest of their era, destroyed one of them, and provided a hard fight for the other.
Oh, nice way to belittle another character. You are being stupid, sorry I said it.

Originally posted by Q99
You have weird standards.
No, I have a broad mind, better understanding of the ground realities of the mythos, and learned to adapt to changes that frequently occur in it.

Q99

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I understand, Sith Inquisitors tend to be sorcerers as well. Though I acknowledge that not much is known about Jadus in this field at the moment.

It's silly to put someone high on a list of 'best ever' simply because they exist in that category at unknown level with neither feats in that area or even hype about their abilities in that area.

Darth Nox, too.

TOR sorcery is so good it produced the Dread Masters, Darth Nox, and Vitiate, but that doesn't mean every sorcerer they have is that good.

Are you familiar with how human eye afterimages and/or comic pages work? In comic pages, action has to be compressed in a single image even if it takes time. With human eyes, a bright object can appear to leave many afterimagines at fairly low speed.

None of which has to do with how his sword in a page.

'Leaving afterimages on a comic page' is not a sign of being fast with a sword *for a sith*.

And while he's known as very powerful, his saber ability specifically is never called out.

Oh, far from it! They are two of the best of their era and are thus formidable, but there's Sith in the TOR era that can beat them. Nox is, I'd say, an even better sorcerer than Wyyrlok, and Vitiate is better than Wyyrlok or Krayt. I'd say Malgus could beat armored-Krayt as well.

Throw in other areas and Sidious, Luke, and so on could do the job as well. Zannah's a sorcerer and I put her a bit better than Wyyrlok in that field as well.

It's just, 'some people from that era can beat them' doesn't mean 'people who definitely are not the best in their era,' can.

Thanaton's power is mostly shown with his powerful lightning. He has not shown major saber feats. His sorcery *outside* of lightning is not much to write home about by the standards of Sith on this level either.

Thanaton is a powerful Dark Councilor who's high force ability effectively makes him living force artillery with his lightning and able to blast away many lesser foes and even some quite formidable opponents who lack sufficient defense against said attacks. That's how I class him, and power in one area does not mean power in areas that haven't been shown.

I do think it's foolish to think that no-one of note in one era can lose to the very best of another, though.

psmith81992

Why wouldn't have his skills degraded, especially if he's 6,000+ years old?

Nephthys

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
An argument can be made for Sidious based on official data, not Bane. Even then, Dread Masters seem to understand the Force in ways unlike any Sith I have seen yet. Maybe Sith Emperor have comparable command of the Force, I can't say the same about anybody else in the mythos.

Also, I am not sure if Nihilus can take Dread Masters. The latter are corporeally immortal beings and I don't think Force drain can undo that.

Bane has some of the most devastating direct uses of the Force, the greatest physical abilities and in terms of knowledge of the Force you're forgetting that he has access to Revan, Freedon Nadd, Belia Darzu and Andeddu's holocrons. And all of them are insanely knowledgeable Sith Lords. The Dread Masters are powerful and skilled, but their fear attack can be resisted, especially by one such as Bane and their combat abilities aren't established as being equal to Bane's.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Their is no such thing as "moderately powerful." Powerful is powerful. Yes, more powerful, very powerful, extremely powerful, supremely powerful, are right choice of words. Even then, some sources may just contain word powerful to describe an individual whom we may regard as extremely powerful based on feats.

Anyways, that Nox was heavily outclassed in power irrespective of his performance in the (deadly) Sith trials despite all odds being stacked against him and being a powerful Force-user in general, speaks volumes about quality of Sith in the Empire. Nox was lesser then Skotia who in turn was lesser then Thanaton, such was the power gap. So yes, I do rate Thanation very highly because I don't think that Nox is a chump in comparison to other Force-users even at natural capacity on the whole. Official assessment is that Darth Thanaton is absolutely "supremely powerful," no other explanation makes sense.

No, there is such a thing as "moderately powerful". Nox is a powerful Sith Lord in their own right, but only compared to the other standard Sith Lords or Jedi Masters of the Empire. Compared to a Darth or a Dark Council member, she's not that great.

If you want an actual description, maybe the term "above average" is accurate.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Thanaton is not that great? Based on what exactly?

So I should disregard an official quote because it doesn't sits well with your personal perception? Makes no sense.

Well for a start, unlike you I've actually played the Inquistor campaign as well as every other one and so I have good context for my evaluation of his abilities.

Don't disregard it, but don't give the quote as much credit as you are at the moment. Change your perception.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Any of the people you named would supposedly own Thanation, is just a supposition, not an established fact. I expect better reasoning from you at-least. I am not sure how even Revan would perform against Thanaton if both are at their prime, all I can do is speculate and I believe that this would be a very tough fight for both in which both can win and loose (Broad mindedness, Neph, coz someone being labeled as supremely powerful in an encyclopedic medium, specks volumes about his strength).

Yes, Sith Emperor likely eclipses everybody else excluding Dread Masters but "supremely powerful" accolade haven't lost its value if assigned to Thanaton, it just shows where he stands if TIERS are introduced to rank characters.

There's no such thing as an established fact when it comes to how two characters compare. I didn't think I needed to bother saying that. Of course it's a supposition. Every single thing we're saying is a supposition except for the direct quotes. Don't lecture me about that. It is just as much a supposition of yours that Thanaton remotely compares to the people I mentioned. I say that they can own Thanaton based on evidence and their own abilities, not my personal opinion or how impressive I want a quote calling them powerful to be.

Being labeled as supremely powerful means less about him than you think. You should base your evaluation of his abilities on his actual demonstrated power, not just hyperbolic accolades that are only as impressive as the person reading wants them to be.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
So facts are now a 'wall of wank' because you didn't like them?

I am not dismissing the fact that incredibly powerful Jedi and Sith have formidable defensive abilities and would be able to tank many offensive applications of the Force and shit. It is though unclear what kind of strength is needed to tank a power of that much intensity which Thanaton unleashed on Nox to destroy him. Nox managed to tank it with unnatural boost in power and use of dark sorcery and this isn't normal approach to tank a Force power in the mythos. In addition, a vision revealed that Thanaton can casually destroy strong individuals with his lightning bursts at his prime, and he really upped the game with his powers while confronting Nox for the final time. So I am not sure that most can handle that kind of charged power, after all, dark sorcery represents extremely deadly use of the Force and it is not often possible to handle sorcery based attacks with natural ways. Just look at the example of clash between Bane and Zannah, Bane faltered when dark sorcery based offense came in to play and Bane could do nothing about it. And Bane is f****** strong. Now don't tell me that sorcery have no effect on lightning, it does. Sorcery can be used to for any purpose, to augment standard applications, to manipulate Force in ways not possible with standard applications. That wasn't a normal burst of lightning from Thanation, that was effin sorcery at work.

Give me a single bit of proof that Thanaton's lightning was enhanced by sorcery. no expression

Saying "its unclear what strength is needed to tank it" is complete bullshit. Don't cop out of actually proving the strength of the attack. Based on evidence any number of people are strong enough to block it.

Bane faltered against Zannah's attack because it wasn't an attack he could block, it was only something he could overcome through willpower.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Rituals require strength/power to be performed successfully. Terminology doesn't excuses use of strength from such acts. Rituals make it possible to manipulate the Force in ways that may not be possible during lets say combat situations because rituals require greater focus, sometimes total focus to be performed successfully. That Emperor was able to corrupt and influence the environment of an entire world (i.e. Dromund Kaas) with his dark practices, is a very good indication of his enormous power in general.

Rituals can take place over days or weeks though. They're not representative of the power a Sith can bring to bare in a few seconds. Plus they can require artifacts to achieve their purpose by augmenting the effects of the ritualist. In TOR for instance Nox can be seen performing sorcery with the aid of several objects. The entirety of Act 1 is Nox collecting artifacts needed to perform a ritual.

Gethzerion on the other hand created a lightning storm by getting angry.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Nox doesn't have "many" peers and superiors, after being stupendously augmented with dark sorcery. I am not sure what Vivicar was doing, siphoning energy from lot of people doesn't necessarily grants an individual extraordinary boost in power, what it actually does is that it makes an individual much harder to kill/defeat then norm (endurance enhancement). BioWare explained this matter well with examples of Darth Malak and Darth Ikoral. Heck, Darth Sidious began to drain lot of people on Byss before falling in the Battle of Endor and if he were to get power boost from that feat, it would not have been possible to topple him like Vader did and Sidious would have one-shot anybody.

Nox wasn't siphoning energy of other individuals to enhance his endurance, he was doing something else; he bind powerful Force spirits to him by using Force-walking ritual technique and was able to augment his strength (in all aspects) by drawing from the energies of Force spirits surging within him. He managed to bind 6 Force spirits to him in total and became awfully strong at that point, stronger then any mortal perhaps.

About Force-walking ritual:

Three hundred years after Tulak Hord, the Sith Ergast tried to recreate the ritual the Dark Lord used to devour the spirits of his enemies at Yn and Chabosh. In its place, he discovered what he called the ritual of Force-walking. Requiring a Sith of great strength of will, the ritual of Force-walking allows the user to bind the restless ghosts of dead Sith to himself. Once the ghosts are bound, the ritualist may draw from their power, channeling it into a powerful exertion of Force energy against his enemies. (Taken from SWTOR)

Get your facts straight, Neph.

It's funny how you lecture me about getting my facts straight when you admit to having no idea what you're talking about. laughing

No, Vivicar was drawing on the power of the Jedi Masters. This is confirmed by him and the encyclopedia:

"My plague isn't just a disease; it siphons power from it's victims. With the proper rituals, that power can be channeled. Soon, the combined strength of your Masters will make me the most powerful Force adept who has ever lived!"

"Its victims suffered paranoia and madness, as drew on their strength to fuel his own power." - Swtore 154

Jesus, Legend why don't you try doing some ****ing research next time. wink

Nephthys

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I never dismissed the possibility of Thanaton having peers and superiors in power factor, my point is that he is among the strongest individuals in the mythos in natural aspect just like Malgus, Marr, Jadus, Revan, Hero of Tython, Satele Shan, Barsen'thor (3), Luke and Yoda.

Every Sith have different dynamics, Thanaton grew in power with passage of time and proved his worth in battles and tasked to eliminate powerful Exal Kressh by Sith Emperor himself which was beyond the capability of many Sith.

More;

Born Teneb Kel, the Lord of the Sith known as Darth Thanaton rose to prominence in the years before the Treaty of Coruscant, in an Empire newly reintroduced to the galaxy. The apprentice of a disgraced master, the young Thanaton was forced to fight for his place in the Empire. His love of Sith culture and tradition was reinforced by the knowledge that power is not something given, but something fought for. He learned to despise and distrust the machinations of Sith like Lord Zash, who eschew Sith customs in favor of their own deceptive power gains, and to admire the sentinels of Sith history, embodied in the ancient Sith Lords Ajunta Pall, Marka Ragnos, Tulak Hord and Naga Sadow. (Taken from SWTOR)

Thanaton represented an ideal Sith Lord, an individual who would gain prominence through personal strength and just not political schemes and short-cuts. He arrived in the Dark Council on the basis of his personal strength and accomplishments, excellent. Sith spent their entire lives plotting to ascend to the Dark Council but few would get the opportunity so becoming a Dark Council member is a major accomplishment for any Sith in the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire.

Malgus, is also a self-made Sith, yes, undoubtedly one of the strongest I have yet seen. And his attempt to become Sith Emperor is something to behold, it shows how strong he was even though he didn't last against rivals in Dark Council but still he had the mantle for a short while. I believe that elites of the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire had the potential to be greatest dark lords outside the Empire but Sith Emperor overshadowed them. Malgus also got an opportunity when Sith Emperor was not in the picture. He had what it takes to be an Emperor but their were other extremely powerful rivals, once again this shows how much quality existed in the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire at higher end of its hierarchy.

In short, Malgus, Thanaton, Marr and Jadus are all examples of self-made super-strong Sith. And I respect them all and debate in favor of these Sith in many topics.

**** this entire rant. Stop talking so much. I'm not responding to these huge essays on you masturbating over characters you like.

Thanaton isn't among the strongest individuals. He's far below everyone you mentioned. Resist the delusion and accept this.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Did I say that he didn't use the Force? I am pointing out that he use any means necessary to defeat his opponents.

He even wears special gear to have advantage in combat situations like powerful Sith warriors:

The armor of Darth Thanaton incorporates life-support devices and combat stimulant injectors to give him edge in battle. (Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)

Yes, Thanaton specializes in use of the Force but this doesn't means he sucks in lightsaber dueling arts and not behaves like Sith warrior. I don't believe in stereotypes about specialties of individuals.

I have the encyclopedia as well, I know about his armor's enhancements.

I didn't say he sucks as a duelist. Only that he's never actually demonstrated any exceptional talent as one. You can speculate all you want about how he might be a great duelist, but without any actual evidence to support the idea it means nothing.

Was he even actually called one of the Empires greatest warriors? I thought he was just called a Champion of Battle.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Thanaton learned whatever he felt would benefit him. What do you think he was doing with Tulak Hord's holocrons?

It wasn't a holocron, it was a tablet. Thanaton is the Council member in charge of the Sphere of Ancient Knowledge. Its only natural for him to have such an artifact.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
No, your point makes no sense.

Was Tulak Hords master a great duelist because he was one? Your own natural ability has more to do with determining your skill than that of your masters.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Already noted. Anything else? No

Lol, I was only pointing out that you said that Wyyrlok isn't as good as Exal Kressh in anything...... except illusions. Which I thought was stupid to say.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Impressive. Now how good is Krayt's lightning?

Krayt obliterated two large stone pillars with it in his battle with Wyyrlok.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Their is good possibility of Thanaton being stronger then Bane but I never stated that he is stronger then Sidious. I pointed out that he seems to be more proficient in use of lightning application then both.

Theres no possibility for Thanaton to be stronger than Bane. He would crush the pompous buffoon. Thanaton's lightning has never demonstrated the power to utterly disintegrate beings like Bane and Sidious have. Their lightning >> his.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Yes, but Thanaton (prime) outright eliminated Teneb Kel (his former-self) with a casual burst of lightning. Notice the difference.

Visions aren't representative of reality.

psmith81992

I'm not sure how any one force user can combat the dread masters on any level. Those fools have nearly limitless force abilities, including growing to ungodly sizes. I really don't think they should be used in vs. battles.

Nephthys

I'm talking about individually, one on one. I already admitted that I don't think anyone can beat them solo.

Sinious

Originally posted by Nephthys

Theres no possibility for Thanaton to be stronger than Bane. He would crush the pompous buffoon. Thanaton's lightning has never demonstrated the power to utterly disintegrate beings like Bane and Sidious have. Their lightning >> his.

thumb up

Originally posted by psmith81992
I'm not sure how any one force user can combat the dread masters on any level. Those fools have nearly limitless force abilities, including growing to ungodly sizes. I really don't think they should be used in vs. battles.

The growing thing is game mechanics I think and to justify its logic, I would say its more of an illusion than actual growing in size. I agree about their power though. That's why I consider their loyalty to the Emperor as one of Emperor's most impressive feats.

FreshestSlice

Originally posted by Nephthys

No, there is such a thing as "moderately powerful". Nox is a powerful Sith Lord in their own right, but only compared to the other standard Sith Lords or Jedi Masters of the Empire. Compared to a Darth or a Dark Council member, she's not that great.

If you want an actual description, maybe the term "above average" is accurate.

Is it really fair to judge Nox with their 1.5ish years of actual training? I dunno.

Nephthys

I can only judge them based on their current abilities.

FreshestSlice

I know, what I'm saying is that we shouldn't be making statements about the power level, one way or the other, about someone who's well below everyone else in terms of training experience.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Nephthys
Bane has some of the most devastating direct uses of the Force, the greatest physical abilities and in terms of knowledge of the Force you're forgetting that he has access to Revan, Freedon Nadd, Belia Darzu and Andeddu's holocrons. And all of them are insanely knowledgeable Sith Lords. The Dread Masters are powerful and skilled, but their fear attack can be resisted, especially by one such as Bane and their combat abilities aren't established as being equal to Bane's.
Bane is undoubtedly well-rounded but he is not as much tried and tested as Sith Lords of the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire are in general, and have limits. In Bane's era, quality Sith were a rarity, apart from Kas'im and Zannah, no one else was impressive. Kas'im lost due to a miscalculation but Zannah defeated Bane. Point is that Bane is great but he is not that great as you typically consider him to be, he haven't faced practitioners of the dark side of caliber of Dread Masters or even some Dark Council members. It is not clear how well he would cope with some of the greatest masters of telepathic abilities, he might end up broke, and even if he somehow manage to resist, he may not be able to pull off his best under pressure and loose. So many variables to consider.

Do not underestimate Dread Masters, they understood the Force in ways unlike most Sith as apparent from their actions. They were so powerful that they couldn't be controlled or held in captivity for long, Republic lost whole fleets to them in battles. On ground, strike teams were dispatched to assassinate them instead of a lone Jedi.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No, there is such a thing as "moderately powerful". Nox is a powerful Sith Lord in their own right, but only compared to the other standard Sith Lords or Jedi Masters of the Empire. Compared to a Darth or a Dark Council member, she's not that great.
Well, Sith had touched new heights in the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire in all aspects, so I don't fault Nox for not being among the best at natural level despite his exceptional performance during Sith trials with his natural abilities. Do not forget that Nox subdued or impressed Khem Val, a feat which only Tulak Hord matched before. Now, I don't think that I have to remind you how good Tulak Hord was, you already may know.

In the nutshell, Nox may not be an elite in his time at natural level but he can be among the strongest in some eras and outright strongest in some eras. And I am not even considering his augmentation aspects.

Originally posted by Nephthys
If you want an actual description, maybe the term "above average" is accurate.
Hmm, above average in his time yet powerful.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Well for a start, unlike you I've actually played the Inquistor campaign as well as every other one and so I have good context for my evaluation of his abilities.

Don't disregard it, but don't give the quote as much credit as you are at the moment. Change your perception.
I am not going to change my perception without valid reasons. So far you haven't provided any.

I have noticed that even incredibly powerful individuals do not necessarily come off as impressive in the SWTOR game, poor story telling. It is the lore (written content) that offers a true picture of what an individual is capable of.

I can provide two ANALOGIES already and I have complete just one story so far.

ANALOGY 1: During my playthrough of JK story, I came across Darth Decimus and easily defeated him. However, as per lore, Darth Decimus is one of the greatest warriors the Empire have ever produced with history of collapsing entire armies during battlefield, and a member of the Dark Council. But in the game, he doesn't have a single feat, no scripted events.

ANALGOY 2: Aforementioned situation rings true for Lord Fulminiss as well, one of the most powerful sorcerers the Empire have ever produced with history and capability of destroying an entire city or settlement with his powers. And yet, fell in the battle easily, no scripted events again.

Therefore, you can play all stories and still not be sure of merits and (actual) strength of every character that you may come across unless you focus on the written content.

Originally posted by Nephthys
There's no such thing as an established fact when it comes to how two characters compare. I didn't think I needed to bother saying that. Of course it's a supposition. Every single thing we're saying is a supposition except for the direct quotes. Don't lecture me about that. It is just as much a supposition of yours that Thanaton remotely compares to the people I mentioned. I say that they can own Thanaton based on evidence and their own abilities, not my personal opinion or how impressive I want a quote calling them powerful to be.

Being labeled as supremely powerful means less about him than you think. You should base your evaluation of his abilities on his actual demonstrated power, not just hyperbolic accolades that are only as impressive as the person reading wants them to be.
I am simply reiterating official promotion of Thanaton, I am not assuming stuff. Thanaton have performance that justifies his hype:

1. One of the greatest warriors of the Empire
2. Held his own against powerful Exal Kressh in battles many years before his prime
3. Easily subdued Darth Nox in the first confrontation, Nox was already a powerful Force-user and had augmented his power further with that of a Force-ghost.
4. Endured and survived a lethal blast of energy released by Nox during second confrontation which shattered everything else in the vicinity.
5. Acquired mastery of dark side of such a caliber that he could one-shot even powerful Force-users with his powers, during his prime.
6. Noted to have "insurmountable strength."

So yes, Thanaton is legit.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Give me a single bit of proof that Thanaton's lightning was enhanced by sorcery. no expression

Powerful sorcerers tend to unleash extremely potent bursts of lightning then norm.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Saying "its unclear what strength is needed to tank it" is complete bullshit. Don't cop out of actually proving the strength of the attack. Based on evidence any number of people are strong enough to block it.

Bane faltered against Zannah's attack because it wasn't an attack he could block, it was only something he could overcome through willpower.
I am not coping out, I have no idea what level of strength is needed to tank 'destructive vortex of lightning' unleashed by Thanaton, if standard defensive approaches are concerned. Darth Nox tanked that kind of power with unnatural means, perhaps an indication that it is incredibly difficult to tank that kind of power with natural abilities.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Rituals can take place over days or weeks though. They're not representative of the power a Sith can bring to bare in a few seconds. Plus they can require artifacts to achieve their purpose by augmenting the effects of the ritualist. In TOR for instance Nox can be seen performing sorcery with the aid of several objects. The entirety of Act 1 is Nox collecting artifacts needed to perform a ritual.
You have a point here but Emperor multi-tasked with his abilities on a massive scale so no idea how much energy he spent on manipulating the environment of Dromund Kaas, may be not so much.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Gethzerion on the other hand created a lightning storm by getting angry.
And this is one time event, right? Well, Emperor Vitiate manipulated the environment of Dromund Kaas constantly while performing other duties, which says a lot about his power in general.

Originally posted by Nephthys
It's funny how you lecture me about getting my facts straight when you admit to having no idea what you're talking about. laughing

Ok, you have valid point here. Thanks for this information.

Though I would point out that Vivicar haven't peaked at the time of confrontation with Barsen'thor. Otherwise, it may not have been possible for a single Jedi to defeat him.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Nephthys
**** this entire rant. Stop talking so much. I'm not responding to these huge essays on you masturbating over characters you like.

Thanaton isn't among the strongest individuals. He's far below everyone you mentioned. Resist the delusion and accept this.
http://www.troll.me/images2/facepalm-guys/double-facepalm-when-one-facepalm-is-just-not-enough.jpg

I take it that intellectual debate is not your strong point?

Originally posted by Nephthys
I have the encyclopedia as well, I know about his armor's enhancements.

I didn't say he sucks as a duelist. Only that he's never actually demonstrated any exceptional talent as one. You can speculate all you want about how he might be a great duelist, but without any actual evidence to support the idea it means nothing.

Was he even actually called one of the Empires greatest warriors? I thought he was just called a Champion of Battle.
Thanaton managed to duel Exal Kressh effectively, the latter was a formidable duelist and slaughtered many Sith in Korriban.

What do you think Champion of Battle section implies? Three names specifically mentioned; Darth Malgus; Darth Decimus; and Darth Thanaton.

Originally posted by Nephthys
It wasn't a holocron, it was a tablet. Thanaton is the Council member in charge of the Sphere of Ancient Knowledge. Its only natural for him to have such an artifact.
Ok, makes no difference still.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Was Tulak Hords master a great duelist because he was one? Your own natural ability has more to do with determining your skill than that of your masters.
This is strange analogy, Hord's master is not yet revealed.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Lol, I was only pointing out that you said that Wyyrlok isn't as good as Exal Kressh in anything...... except illusions. Which I thought was stupid to say.

Krayt obliterated two large stone pillars with it in his battle with Wyyrlok.
Kressh's lightning was potent enough to shatter concrete, destroy structures made of metal and concrete and even disarm opponents by overcoming lightsaber based defenses and destroying the lightsaber itself in the process. Heck, Kressh could summon storms of lightning on such a scale that she could fill large areas with it.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Theres no possibility for Thanaton to be stronger than Bane. He would crush the pompous buffoon. Thanaton's lightning has never demonstrated the power to utterly disintegrate beings like Bane and Sidious have. Their lightning >> his.
Really?

If Thanaton can one-shot powerful individual(s) with casual bursts, he can disintegrate lesser beings. Common sense.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Visions aren't representative of reality.
Seriously? Visions are always correct. Though they reveal events that may or may not occur depending upon the circumstances.