Rank the Top Sith Sorcerers

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Q99
So, who do you think the top users of Sith sorcerer of all time all?



Vitiate, Darth Zannah, Darth Wyyrlok, Darth Andeddu, Darth Maladi, Karness Muur, and any other sorcerer you you feel to include.

Emperordmb
I'd throw in Kun and Nadd.

Nephthys
Nox too. Theres no way she's not a sorcerer.

Sinious
Nox attended rituals but never as the controller/guide but just as an attendee. I'm not sure if he knows how to perform them.

Q99
Nox- Yes, the spirit thing is explicitly sorcery I believe. Way up there.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
I'd throw in Kun and Nadd.

Nadd's odd in that we only have ghost feats for him, yet they're pretty good ghost feats working through his pawn.

Kun I tend to think more alchemist than sorcerer. I mean, he used amulet blasts, and he did the ritual to make himself a spirit. That's it. So I'd rate him relatively low at it.

Nephthys
What about his spell used to freeze the senate?

Originally posted by Sinious
Nox attended rituals but never as the controller/guide but just as an attendee. I'm not sure if he knows how to perform them.

Well in the Makeb expansion you can see her screwing around and doing some ritual thing in her spare-time.

Emperordmb
Doesn't force walk count as sorcery?

Nephthys
It does.

carthage
Not sure who gets number one.

Nephthys
Vitiate imo.

carthage
Was thinking the same and may as well, though Kun's draining of the Massassi took less time than Vitiate's planetary draining. Since this is a sorcery ranking prep and a nexus make Vitiate's feat superior in a sense, but it required more time to gather the Sith lords, whereas, Kun's was faster. IDK just my logic on the thought, Vitiate's other showings are more impressive. Kun's off nexus showings with illusions, paralyzing the senate, and one shotting Odan Urr should be up for consideration.

Vitiate.
Exar Kun
Zannah
Nadd
Nox
Wyyrlok
Sadow
Andeddu
Thanathon

Does anyone have feats for Murr?

Edit: Zannah above Nadd

Astor Ebligis
Exar Kun is arguably the best.

carthage
Which is where I was getting at. But Vitiate's showings with mental domination are things Kun hasn't displayed. I mean Kun dominated the minds of the Jedi he had fighting for him (somewhat), but even then they questioned him and it was only when he unleashed those Sith spirits that he won control over them. Vitiate's mental domination feats outstrip that.

Vitiate's knowledge of the darkside is arguably superior, but Kun's raw power and the fact he mastered so much in just three months speaks volumes about his strength as a force user. Kun's showings off nexus are superior to Vitiate's.

Kalen Sykes
Originally posted by carthage
Was thinking the same and may as well, though Kun's draining of the Massassi took less time than Vitiate's planetary draining. Since this is a sorcery ranking prep and a nexus make Vitiate's feat superior in a sense, but it required more time to gather the Sith lords, whereas, Kun's was faster. IDK just my logic on the thought, Vitiate's other showings are more impressive. Kun's off nexus showings with illusions, paralyzing the senate, and one shotting Odan Urr should be up for consideration.

Vitiate.
Exar Kun
Zannah
Nadd
Nox
Wyyrlok
Sadow
Andeddu
Thanathon



That's very close to what I have, but I have Sadow above Zannah.



Also, Nephthys, you believe the SI is a sorceror and not an assassin?

Nephthys
The story is about using rituals and sorcery and the SI uses lightning and Force attacks liberally in cutscenes instead of their lightsaber or stealth. She even blocks lightning with the Force instead of a lightsaber.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
IMO it goes:

Vitiate
Dread Masters
Kun
Zannah
Nadd
Nox

etc.

Kalen Sykes
Originally posted by Nephthys
The story is about using rituals and sorcery and the SI uses lightning and Force attacks liberally in cutscenes instead of their lightsaber or stealth. She even blocks lightning with the Force instead of a lightsaber.


Well that sucks. I'm leveling an assassin. I'm a stickler for trying to create the character most appropriate to the story, but I had the SI pegged as an assassin and the JC as a sage.

Emperordmb
Originally posted by Kalen Sykes
Well that sucks. I'm leveling an assassin. I'm a stickler for trying to create the character most appropriate to the story, but I had the SI pegged as an assassin and the JC as a sage.
How did you view the SW and JK?

Nephthys
JK - Guardian
SW- Juggernaut
JC - Sage
SI - Sorcerer

Smug - Scoundrel
Trooper - Doesn't matter
BH - Powertech
IA - Operative maybe, but does use a sniper in a cutscene at one point so maybe a hybrid.

In general it's the classes that use a single one-handed weapon that are "canon" imo. Since they'll only ever do that in cutscenes.

Kalen Sykes
Originally posted by Nephthys
JK - Guardian
SW- Juggernaut
JC - Sage
SI - Sorcerer

Smug - Scoundrel
Trooper - Doesn't matter
BH - Powertech
IA - Operative maybe, but does use a sniper in a cutscene at one point so maybe a hybrid.

In general it's the classes that use a single one-handed weapon that are "canon" imo. Since they'll only ever do that in cutscenes.



Well poodoo. I'm mostly correct, but I have a gunslinger and assassin. I keep trying to to play scoundrels and operatives, but I can't get into it.


On topic:

Vitiate.
Exar Kun
Naga Sadow
Zannah
Freedon Nadd
Nox
Wyyrlok
Aleema Keto

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Eh, Aleema doesn't strike me as a particularly incredible sorcerer.

Nephthys
She was pretty good. She had good illusions and could turn people to charred husks with darkside blasts.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
true. But then again despite her skill with sorcery, I feel like she was depicted as a nobody compared to greater sorcerers of and before her time like kun (obviously), Nadd, Sadow, Hord, probably some of the first exiles, etc.

Kalen Sykes
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Eh, Aleema doesn't strike me as a particularly incredible sorcerer.


I think her ability with illusions is underrated. Her ability to generate massive starships to confuse the Republic fleet and conceal Satal's simultaneous attack is pretty impressive, imo.

Nephthys
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
true. But then again despite her skill with sorcery, I feel like she was depicted as a nobody compared to greater sorcerers of and before her time like kun (obviously), Nadd, Sadow, Hord, probably some of the first exiles, etc.

True, but I'd still put her on Ventress levels or something.

S_W_LeGenD
In order:

- Emperor Vitiate
- Dread Masters (all)
- Tulak Hord
- Darth Nox
- Darth Sidious
- Exar Kun
- Darth Thanaton
- Mother Talzin
- Darth Zannah
- Naga Sadow
- Wyyrlok III

Emperordmb
Does Talzin count?

carthage
**** I forgot Talzin. Talzin > Kun

Emperordmb
I'm fairly certain Allyan Magic is separate from Sith Sorcery.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
the OP says, "sith sorcerers," something Talzin isn't.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Oh, Lord Fulminiss has to be on the list.

Q99
Karness Muur had a magic ability that allowed him to turn any non-force user near him into a mutated Rakghoul under his control (and any force wielded scratched by one would also become one).


He could control at least a planet full of them at a time, possibly much more, and under his control they could still operate weapons and ships.




Ehh, he has some stuff, but 'influencing some minor jedi who were able to resist,' and 'freeze a bunch of non-force users' isn't too big. Lots of sorcerers could beat him in a sorcery match (now, he's powerful in other areas, I just don't think he's a top shelf sorcerer).


Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
In order:

- Emperor Vitiate
- Dread Masters (all)
- Tulak Hord
- Darth Nox
- Darth Sidious
- Exar Kun
- Darth Thanaton
- Mother Talzin
- Darth Zannah
- Naga Sadow
- Wyyrlok III


What, *Hord* as 3rd? Let's see what Wikipedia says of his sorcery- "May know the secrets of immortality." No combat sorcery mentioned at all. So, certainly less than Andeddu, let alone, well, most of the others you put below him. Powerful, sure, but his big feats aren't sorcery ones.

Thanaton above Zannah and Sadow and Wyyrlok? Pssh, such era bias.

Astor Ebligis
It's the sheer number of individuals he froze, not to mention draining the Massassi race, separating Luke's spirit from his body, burning Gantoris to death from the inside out, and all his alchemical creations which I would consider a form of sorcery. The guy doesn't appear in that much source material and still has some of the best feats of sorcery in scale and variety. He presumably had a lot more tricks up his sleeve as well. He's a definite contender for the #1 spot.

Q99
My list would be:


Vitiate
Karness Muur
Nox
Zannah
Wyyrlok
Sadow
Nadd
Andeddu
Exar Kun
Thanathon
Maladi
Aleema Keto


I rate Zannah and Wyyrlok highly because being able to take out powerful sith with Memory Walk is a devastating ability that'd allow them to beat many other sith sorcerers.

Astor Ebligis
Q, please tell me the reason you made this thread wasn't just so you could talk about how great you think Wyyrlock is?

NewGuy01
The way I see it is more like this:

JK - Guardian
SW - Marauder
JC - Shadow
SI - Sorcerer
Smug - Gunslinger
BH - Powertech
Agent - Sniper
Troop - Vanguard

Emperordmb
Originally posted by NewGuy01
The way I see it is more like this:

JK - Guardian
SW - Marauder
JC - Shadow
SI - Sorcerer

Agreed

NewGuy01
Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
Q, please tell me the reason you made this thread wasn't just so you could talk about how great you think Wyyrlock is?

That was the exact reason he made this thread. XD

Nephthys
Consular = Shadow? Naw. For a bunch of reasons, but it also cuz feels wrong for the Consular to go to all the trouble of finding and re-forging the First Blade only to trade it in for a common saberstaff.

NewGuy01
Maybe she modified it and made it into a saber staff. sad

No, it's mostly based on my belief that the classes parallel one another--If the Knight is a Guardian, then the Warrior should be Marauder. As it is for Darth Nox and the Barsen'thor. I know it's a silly argument, but I feel that if both the class types exist for the characters they should all be prevalent in some form or another?

Also, unlike Nox, the Barsen has nothing that disputes her being a Shadow. Even if you're not really convinced, it's at least better in support for the Barsen anyway considering she lacks saber feats. no expression

Nephthys
The Barsen'thor uses healing techniques, Force bubbles and powerful Force Waves in cutscenes though. Theres only one time when they actually use their saber and its just to kill a droid.

Q99
Originally posted by Astor Ebligis
Q, please tell me the reason you made this thread wasn't just so you could talk about how great you think Wyyrlock is?


Actually, so I could talk about many great sith sorcerers, and discussion on what makes them great.



I go Vitiate and Muur at the top because of Vitiate's ability to overwhelm the minds of even groups of Sith, and of Muur's planetary, perhaps even galactic threat.

Nox's force ghost control is on a lesser level, but a very powerful ability, likely the strongest individual-combat sorcerer as that ability provides both offense and defense.

Behind that, there's Zannah and the like, who's abilities are a tremendous threat to any force wielder, but not at flexible as Nox's.

Nephthys
Vivicar should be up there. The guy almost solo'd the Jedi Order with one technique.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
yeah, and fulminiss. Dude annihilated a city.

Nephthys
Please **** off.

Sinious
Originally posted by Nephthys
Vivicar should be up there. The guy almost solo'd the Jedi Order with one technique.

Yes, nice one.

He was insanely dangerous and his sorcery was highly effective against the jedi.

Q99
Originally posted by Nephthys
Vivicar should be up there. The guy almost solo'd the Jedi Order with one technique.


Do we count him or the spirit controlling him, Morrhage?


I did forget about that ability, it is rather hax.

Nephthys
Morrhage, I guess.

Q99
I think I'd put him into second.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Q99
What, *Hord* as 3rd? Let's see what Wikipedia says of his sorcery- "May know the secrets of immortality."
Wikipedia doesn't covers every bit properly. It is often difficult to modify content in that source due to rigidity of some contributors.

Originally posted by Q99
No combat sorcery mentioned at all. So, certainly less than Andeddu, let alone, well, most of the others you put below him. Powerful, sure, but his big feats aren't sorcery ones.
Some information that I could find:

Three hundred years after Tulak Hord, the Sith Ergast tried to recreate the ritual the Dark Lord used to devour the spirits of his enemies at Yn and Chabosh.

---

Lord of Hate, conqueror of the planets Yn and Chabosh, and master of Sith Sorcery, Tulak Hord was buried within his tomb along with his secret teachings.

---

Zash graces her apprentice with power and sets the Sith Inquisitor on a new mission: the recovery of artifacts once belonging to the ancient Sith Tulak Hord, With these artifacts, Darth Zash will complete a ritual to bestow considerable power on Zash and her apprentice.

---

Incidents of Sith Lords imbuing their most precious possessions with some fragment of their dark power appear throughout Sith history. Such ritual imbuement can be used to inflict all manner of trouble on those who would steal these terrible treasures. The Dark Lord of the Sith Tulak Hord was especially known for this practice, and many possessions of Tulak Hord's have driven their discoverers to madness throughout the years. Tulak's Madness is unique in who it affects, however; ignoring whether a person’s spirit is dark or light, it afflicts only the weak-willed, driving them to delusions of grandeur and eventual self-destruction.

---

In the battles of Yn and Chabosh, Tulak Hord is believed to have used a ritual to draw the strength of his enemies to himself, growing his power and vitality. One ritual of Tulak Hord's gets only a scant mention in the histories, but is the subject of myth and legend–a ritual rumored to grant eternal life. No one has ever managed to uncover this mythical ritual, let alone perform it.

Tulak Hord have great command of sorcery.

Originally posted by Q99
Thanaton above Zannah and Sadow and Wyyrlok? Pssh, such era bias.
Thanaton defeated a powerful opponent with a single attack from one of his sorcery oriented techniques. This is better performance then that of Zannah, Sadow and Wyyrlok III in combat situations with their sorcery oriented techniques.

Emperordmb
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Thanaton defeated a powerful opponent with a single attack from one of his sorcery oriented techniques. This is better performance then that of Zannah, Sadow and Wyyrlok III in combat situations with their sorcery oriented techniques.
Thanaton defeated his previous self in a vision big ****ing whoop.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Thanaton defeated his previous self in a vision big ****ing whoop.
roll eyes (sarcastic)

I am referring to one of the battles between Thanaton and Darth Nox.

Emperordmb
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
roll eyes (sarcastic)

I am referring to one of the Thanaton's combat against Darth Nox.
And what mental fortitude has Nox shown at that point to suggest she could resist the Illusions of Wyyrlok or Zannah?

Nephthys
Nox does have an ancient Sith artifact that protects them from mental attacks actually.

Darth Abonis
George Lucas

Q99
Nox before he was at full power wasn't as formidable as the foes as Zannah and Wyyrlok fought, though.

Memory Walk would destroy most opponents pretty easily, but it's so strong Zannah and Wyyr hardly feel the need to pull it out most of the time.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Q99
Nox before he was at full power wasn't as formidable as the foes as Zannah and Wyyrlok fought, though.

Memory Walk would destroy most opponents pretty easily, but it's so strong Zannah and Wyyr hardly feel the need to pull it out most of the time.
Prior to first confrontation with Thanaton, Nox was already a powerful Force-user, approached advanced understanding of dark sorcery (mastered Force-walking ritual), and had augmented his power by binding a Force ghost to himself.

I don't recall Bane and Andeddu being boosted by power of a Force ghost before confronting their opponents, still lost.

Q99
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Prior to first confrontation with Thanaton, Nox was already a powerful Force-user, approached advanced understanding of dark sorcery (mastered Force-walking ritual), and had augmented his power by binding a Force ghost to himself.

Sure, but 'reasonably powerful force user who an advanced understanding of dark sorcery' could be used to describe Darth Maladi too, just with memory walk instead of force-walk. No-one's putting her at the top of their lists.

One force ghost didn't put her all that far up in power. It's only when she had a posse that Nox became very powerful.




Bane had no sorcery whatsoever, he was just insanely powerful. He didn't *need* a force ghost.


And Andeddu was so powerful no lone sith was willing to confront him *at all* because none could stop his sorcery and knew it.

Nephthys
It was two force ghosts actually.

I think it might have been that Nox just didn't know how to defend against Thanaton's ritual though.

FreshestSlice
I thought it was from binding multiple ghosts.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Q99
Sure, but 'reasonably powerful force user who an advanced understanding of dark sorcery' could be used to describe Darth Maladi too, just with memory walk instead of force-walk. No-one's putting her at the top of their lists.
The word "powerful" is thrown around so easily these days by fans, is their an official source which promotes Maladi as a powerful Force-user?

I mention Darth Nox as a powerful Force-user because he is stated as such in a sourcebook, even before confronting Thanaton. I don't subscribe labels to characters on the basis of personal interest.

Originally posted by Q99
One force ghost didn't put her all that far up in power. It's only when she had a posse that Nox became very powerful.
I am not sure why you think that, since Force ghosts are powerful entities in their own right (once again, official revelation, not my POV).

Issue is that some people just don't seem to understand how powerful Thanaton is. He is officially stated to be a "supremely powerful" Force-user which means that he is up there with the big guys.

Originally posted by Q99
Bane had no sorcery whatsoever, he was just insanely powerful. He didn't *need* a force ghost.
Insanely powerful is a subjective hype. Bane was in decline by the time he clashed with Zannah, obalisks had taken a massive toll on his well being.

Bane had aptitude for sorcery, he learned essence transfer. He wasn't a master of this field though.

Originally posted by Q99
And Andeddu was so powerful no lone sith was willing to confront him *at all* because none could stop his sorcery and knew it.
Andeddu is supposedly pioneer of some sorcery techniques so he had an edge unless he taught others what he learned. Also, quality of Sith in his time isn't anywhere close to the quality that existed during lets say golden age of Sith, reconstituted ancient Sith Empire, era of Bannite Sith or era of Krayt; reconstituted ancient Sith Empire takes the cake though in progress in every aspect.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Nephthys
It was two force ghosts actually.

I think it might have been that Nox just didn't know how to defend against Thanaton's ritual though.
Interesting! Yes, this can be a reason as well.

Emperordmb
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Insanely powerful is a subjective hype. Bane was in decline by the time he clashed with Zannah, obalisks had taken a massive toll on his well being.
Bane has also been referred to as an "all-powerful Sith" along with Vitiate, has been called "one of the most powerful Sith Lords who ever lived", has been named "one of the most powerful individuals in the universe." Bane was also the Sith'ari of prophecy, and even in DOE had been cited as having "access to near-infinite power."

These are all better than Thanaton's accolades, I mean accolade.

carthage
They're all true. Bane is the most powerful Sith of all time

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Bane has also been referred to as an "all-powerful Sith" along with Vitiate, has been called "one of the most powerful Sith Lords who ever lived", has been named "one of the most powerful individuals in the universe." Bane was also the Sith'ari of prophecy, and even in DOE had been cited as having "access to near-infinite power."

These are all better than Thanaton's accolades, I mean accolade.
The word 'supreme' implies greatest.

"One of the most powerful Sith Lords in history" isn't a unique accolade, every great Sith fits this criteria.

Thanaton also have "insurmountable strength." You know what insurmountable stands for? Check on google.

Emperordmb
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
The word 'supreme' implies greatest.

"One of the most powerful Sith Lords in history" isn't a unique accolade, every great Sith fits this criteria.

Thanaton also have "insurmountable strength." You know what insurmountable stands for? Check on google.
And 'all-powerful' implies omnipotence.

NewGuy01
Directly contradicts his performance against Nox. Massively lmao.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Emperordmb
And 'all-powerful' implies omnipotence.
In which source Bane have been touted as "all-powerful"?

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Directly contradicts his performance against Nox. Massively lmao.
Darth Nox subdued him by drawing on the power of several Force spirits bind to him on top of his own immense strength.

Emperordmb
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
In which source Bane have been touted as "all-powerful"?
Drew Karpyshyn.


And the having access to near-infinite power thing was in DOE.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Drew Karpyshyn.
Not in the lore then.

Thanaton have 'in-lore' accolades, in an encyclopedic medium which makes them even more impressive/appealing then accolades assigned in other mediums. Encyclopedic mediums tend to be conservative at hype factor.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
And the having access to near-infinite power thing was in DOE.
Noted, but doesn't makes much difference. It is already known that Bane became an incredibly powerful Force-user. However, he was in decline when he confronted Zannah, not in his best condition or top shape. If he had lived just 5 years more, he would have become a mere shadow of his former-self, he was declining so fast.

carthage
big grin thumb up

Emperordmb
What do you mean Encyclopedic mediums are conservative?

And how does having near-infinite power not make a difference?

Bane's abilities had only very slightly diminished by DOE, you are acting like he needed a ****ing cane to walk.


BTW Legend, is English your first language? Cause your post have grammatical errors.

Emperordmb
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Not in the lore then.
We can argue canon all day long, but Bane being the Sith'ari is blatantly stated in an encyclopedia.

carthage
He never stated anything to the level of exaggeration you are envisioning. He just said Zannah fought a physically weaker, slower, and altogether pussified version of Orbalisk man.

Nephthys
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
The word 'supreme' implies greatest.

"One of the most powerful Sith Lords in history" isn't a unique accolade, every great Sith fits this criteria.

Thanaton also have "insurmountable strength." You know what insurmountable stands for? Check on google.

His point, Legend, is that hyperbolic statements can only take you so far and are unreliable and prone to exaggeration.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Darth Nox subdued him by drawing on the power of several Force spirits bind to him on top of his own immense strength.

Right, which proves that he's not insurmountable. thumb up

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Noted, but doesn't makes much difference. It is already known that Bane became an incredibly powerful Force-user. However, he was in decline when he confronted Zannah, not in his best condition or top shape. If he had lived just 5 years more, he would have become a mere shadow of his former-self, he was declining so fast.

Bane was only diminished by "the merest fraction" and "a tiny sliver". Which is an utterly insignificant amount. And the following paragraph has Bane explain that his deeper knowledge and experience more than made up for the miniscule amount he was weakened. DoE represents Bane at his fastest and at his greatest Force Mastery.

DarthAnt66
Drew Karpyshyn states the "all-powerful" quote here: http://drewkarpyshyn.com/c/?page_id=7, if you were wondering.
Seemingly, he is referring to Vitiate, Darth Bane, and Revan in the quote.

S_W_LeGenD

Nephthys

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Nephthys
The Sith'ari was stated to be the "perfect Sith" with "perfect power."
Prophesies are not necessarily 100% accurate. CIP: prophesy of The Chosen One.

Bane wasn't supposed to be most powerful, just that he was powerful enough to make difference during the times of decay and decline of Sith.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes it does.
Good

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes, Sidious doesn't have insurmountable strength. erm
He is noticeably stronger then Bane though.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And drawing on the power of hundreds of Jedi Masters in a stupendous boost yet the Barsen'thor still managed to kick Vivicar's ass. Vitiate's power was greatly amplified yet the Hero of Tython still cockslapped his dumb jowly face. Unuthul was drawing power off of millions of Kiliks yet Luke still beat his ass. Mortals can and have stood up to people who's strength was amped by those of others. Hell, isn't it true that you think Revan is more powerful than Nihilus who was eating entire planets?

Don't be ridiculous Legend, plenty of people have demonstrated the power to stand up to Nox. You really think Luke Skywalker would falter? The guy who it was stated that not even a super-massive black hole could move? Open your eyes man.
- Vivicar was growing in power, he haven't peaked by the time Barsen'thor approached him.

- Emperor Vitiate was significantly weakened by disruption of his most ambitious ritual, I am not sure from where you are getting the idea that he was amped when HoT struck him down. Emperor Vitiate was also trying to keep Force ghosts lurking within the Dark Temple at bay or submissive to make the environment of Dark Temple safer for his Imperial Guard, so Emperor Vitiate had to exert more, possibly lot more, while simultaneously dealing with HoT. In short, Emperor Vitiate was utterly disadvantaged in this situation.

- I cannot say much about power progression of UnuThul, he did go down like a chump. In contrast, Lord Nyax proved to be much greater threat to Luke then UnuThul ever did and without any augmentation.

----

My observation is that drawing power from a Force ghost makes major difference:

- Kype Durron was just a padawan when Force ghost of Kun seduced him and augmented him, and the Jedi was able to perform feats of such magnitude that he would not have with his natural strength.

- Revan was able to cope with telepathic powers and Force drain powers of Emperor Vitiate for 300 years in a stasis by drawing on the power of Force ghost of Surik. He wouldn't have stood a chance with his natural strength.

- Nox utterly destroyed a supremely powerful Sith Lord by drawing on the power of several Force ghosts.

----

You need to open your eyes, Neph. Not me.

And yes, Force ghosts can destroy even Luke. Kun's ghost one-shot him, remember?

Mortals have limits, even greatest of the mortals are not unstoppable.

Luke's supposed capability to resist the might of a super black-hole is utterly baseless hype. He was immensely stressed from the act of manipulating an (artificially created) small black hole and he was giving his best for this action, artificial black holes were no where near as strong as natural ones.

Originally posted by Nephthys
no expression

A few days wouldn't diminish him by any degree.
I am not exactly sure how big was the gap between the two events; it could be some days to a year. A lot had happened in-between.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm well aware of all that. But I'm also aware that Bane himself states that he's only weakened by a miniscule amount.:

"He still cut an imposing figure. The powerful muscles built up during a youth spent working the mines on Apatros rippled beneath his skin, flexing with each slash and strike of his lightsaber. But a tiny sliver of the brute strength he once possessed had been whittled away.

He leapt high in the air, his lightsaber arcing above his head before chopping straight down in a blow powerful enough to cleave an enemy in two. His feet hit the hard surface of the courtyard stones with a sharp, sudden smack as he landed. Bane still moved with fierce grace and terrifying intensity. His lightsaber still flickered with blinding speed as he performed his martial drills, yet it was the merest fraction slower than it had once been."

Those are extremely insignificant amounts that he was diminished by.
Bane was loosing strength every day. By the time he clashed with Zannah, he might have lost noticeable strength depending upon the time gap.

DarthAnt66

S_W_LeGenD

DarthAnt66
You said "He wouldn't have stood a chance with his natural strength."
That's completely wrong. His "natural strength" was capable of doing the mental war.
The difference was his "natural strength" was being drained, so he needed to be replenished.
You were implying Revan was *amped*, he wasn't. Not at all, to be fair.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
You said "He wouldn't have stood a chance with his natural strength."
That's completely wrong. His "natural strength" was capable of doing the mental war.
The difference was his "natural strength" was being drained, so he needed to be replenished.
You were implying Revan was *amped*, he wasn't. Not at all, to be fair.
But he wouldn't have lasted 300 years in that situation with his natural strength or would he?

Point is that Force ghosts are immensely powerful entities. With support of Surik's ghost, Revan managed to sustain worst kind of torture for centuries.

DarthAnt66
Except you fail to recognize *Vitiate's* power was also being replenished...by Revan. http://r26.imgfast.net/users/2613/36/14/96/smiles/752783128.gif
If Vitiate was not draining Revan, I seriously doubt he could have lasted 300 years either.
With both of their power at "natural", they stalemated eachother, with both getting their powers equally *replenished*, not *amped.*

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Except you fail to recognize *Vitiate's* power was also being replenished...by Revan. http://r26.imgfast.net/users/2613/36/14/96/smiles/752783128.gif
If Vitiate was not draining Revan, I seriously doubt he could have lasted 300 years either.
With both of their power at "natural", they stalemated eachother, with both getting their powers equally *replenished*, not *amped.*
Emperor Vitiate was draining many individuals, not just Revan.

I am not sure if stalemate is right choice of word, even with support from Surik's ghost, Revan's strength began to diminish eventually. This is why Surik's ghost eventually reached out to a Jedi Master to set the stage for rescue of Revan.

However, you are missing my point. Revan lasted centuries against Emperor's powers with aid from Surik's ghost. If this ghost had not been in the picture, Emperor would have killed the Jedi with his draining powers.

Emperordmb
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Emperor Vitiate was draining many individuals, not just Revan.
This only furthers Ant's point of Vitiate's energy being replenished as well.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I am not sure if stalemate is right choice of word, even with support from Surik's ghost, Revan's strength began to diminish eventually. This is why Surik's ghost eventually reached out to a Jedi Master to set the stage for rescue of Revan.
Because Surik wouldn't want to help free him from his torture anyways?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
However, you are missing my point. Revan lasted centuries against Emperor's powers with aid from Surik's ghost. If this ghost had not been in the picture, Emperor would have killed the Jedi with his draining powers.
And killing a prisoner locked in stasis is impressive?

DarthAnt66
thumb up thumb up

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Emperordmb
This only furthers Ant's point of Vitiate's energy being replenished as well.
And why Emperor needs to replenish his energy? He is not getting drained.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Because Surik wouldn't want to help free him from his torture anyways?


And killing a prisoner locked in stasis is impressive?
I am not sure what your point is.

DarthAnt66
Lol. His strength is getting replenished from the drain.

Emperordmb
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
And why Emperor needs to replenish his energy? He is not getting drained.
And that only places Revan at more of a disadvantage...

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I am not sure what your point is.
Surik is Revan's friend. Revan doesn't have to be losing the mental war or on the verge of breaking for her to want to free him.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Lol. His strength is getting replenished from the drain.
You are not making any sense here.

Emperor doesn't needs to replenish his energies because he is not in decline or getting drained.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Emperordmb
And that only places Revan at more of a disadvantage...


Surik is Revan's friend. Revan doesn't have to be losing the mental war or on the verge of breaking for her to want to free him.
You have missed my point entirely.

Revan lasted against Emperor's powers for 300 years with support from Surik's ghost. Point is that Force ghosts are powerful entities and they can have a major impact on an individual's performance in every aspect.

DarthAnt66
Doesn't matter is he "needs" too. He *is.*
Do you not know what "Force Drain" does?

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Doesn't matter is he "needs" too. He *is.*
Do you not know what "Force Drain" does?
Force Drain can be used for multiple purposes:

- kill
- Replenish energy
- Fuel the power

This explains how Emperor was growing in power with passage of time, he fueled his power by draining many individuals.

DarthAnt66
Except Revan and Vitiate were using the same technique. They were "feeding" off others, which refreshes and restores their Force abilities.
It is called "Drain Force," a variation of "Force Drain."

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Except Revan and Vitiate were using the same technique. They were "feeding" off others, which refreshes and restores their Force abilities.
It is called "Drain Force," a variation of "Force Drain."
No.

Revan was siphoning energy from Surik's ghost because he was being drained by Emperor, Revan was replenishing his energy in this manner.

Emperor --- Drains --- > Revan --- Drains --- > Surik's ghost

In contrast, Emperor wasn't being drained by anybody else, rather siphoning energy of others to fuel his power.

Emperor --- Drains --- > Revan and many others

Emperordmb
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
No.

Revan was siphoning energy from Surik's ghost because he was being drained by Emperor.

In contrast, Emperor wasn't being drained by anybody else, rather siphoning energy of others to fuel his power.
So as far as the mental war goes they were still stalemating eachother?

DarthAnt66
Mind-domination requires effort and depletion of energy. It's not something you can just do off the whim and expect no consequences from it, hence why it is so difficult.

Nephthys
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Prophesies are not necessarily 100% accurate. CIP: prophesy of The Chosen One.

Bane wasn't supposed to be most powerful, just that he was powerful enough to make difference during the times of decay and decline of Sith.

So prophecy is worthless? The Chosen One did everything the prophecy said he would AND he was the most powerful being ever born.

The whole point of the prophecy was that the Sith'ari would be the King Adas reborn, who was notable for his power in driving off the Rakata. The Sith'ari would obviously have immense power and represent the pinnacle of the Sith ideal. Thats the prophecy.


Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
He is noticeably stronger then Bane though.

In what manner?


Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
- Vivicar was growing in power, he haven't peaked by the time Barsen'thor approached him.

- Emperor Vitiate was significantly weakened by disruption of his most ambitious ritual, I am not sure from where you are getting the idea that he was amped when HoT struck him down. Emperor Vitiate was also trying to keep Force ghosts lurking within the Dark Temple at bay or submissive to make the environment of Dark Temple safer for his Imperial Guard, so Emperor Vitiate had to exert more, possibly lot more, while simultaneously dealing with HoT. In short, Emperor Vitiate was utterly disadvantaged in this situation.

- I cannot say much about power progression of UnuThul, he did go down like a chump. In contrast, Lord Nyax proved to be much greater threat to Luke then UnuThul ever did and without any augmentation.

- So what? He WAS still drawing power from hundreds of Jedi Masters. Even if he only absorbed a small portion of power from each, the amp would be immense. According to you that should make him insurmountable yet the Barsen'thor beat him while she was weakened and after fighting through sorcery-enhanced soldiers. Amps can be overcome.

- Theres no indication Vitiate had to keeps the ghosts under control. He could just put them back to sleep like they were before the game starts. Vitiate was also on a powerful darkside nexus and the Hero had to fight to get to him.

- So admit that beings unnaturally amped by the power of many others can be eclipsed by naturally extremely powerful Force users.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
My observation is that drawing power from a Force ghost makes major difference:

- Kype Durron was just a padawan when Force ghost of Kun seduced him and augmented him, and the Jedi was able to perform feats of such magnitude that he would not have with his natural strength.

- Revan was able to cope with telepathic powers and Force drain powers of Emperor Vitiate for 300 years in a stasis by drawing on the power of Force ghost of Surik. He wouldn't have stood a chance with his natural strength.

- Nox utterly destroyed a supremely powerful Sith Lord by drawing on the power of several Force ghosts.

- Because Exar Kun is one of the most powerful Sith of all time. He's laughably far above the Sith Nox bound to himself. Even put together Kun is likely equal to or above their power.

- Not because Surik was powerful JUST by being a Force spirit.

- Because their combined power eclipses Thanatons. But Nox's power doesn't eclipse the likes of Jadus, Malgus, HoT, Barsen'thor, Marr, Scourge, the Wrath and others. All naturally powerful Force users and all peers of Nox.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You need to open your eyes, Neph. Not me.

And yes, Force ghosts can destroy even Luke. Kun's ghost one-shot him, remember?

Mortals have limits, even greatest of the mortals are not unstoppable.

Luke's supposed capability to resist the might of a super black-hole is utterly baseless hype. He was immensely stressed from the act of manipulating an (artificially created) small black hole and he was giving his best for this action, artificial black holes were no where near as strong as natural ones.

Only because Kun is so powerful and used an attack Luke didn't know the defense for. Don't act as if any Force ghost could destroy Luke. Kun is the exception, not the rule. His power was immense.

Immortals have limits as well. Nox's power has limits, no matter how amplifed it is. Don't imply otherwise. Nox's limit is still below that of the greatest Jedi and Sith in the mythos.

Don't care. Jacen still blocked turbolaser cannonfire, which is immensely powerful and Luke is greater than him. He's not faltering against Nox.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I am not exactly sure how big was the gap between the two events; it could be some days to a year. A lot had happened in-between.

It was a few days.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Bane was loosing strength every day. By the time he clashed with Zannah, he might have lost noticeable strength depending upon the time gap.

No he wasn't. Its utterly ridiculous to think his power would have declined by a noticeable degree in the few days of DOE. I'd say I expect better from you, but your arguments are getting more outlandish every time.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Nephthys
So prophecy is worthless? The Chosen One did everything the prophecy said he would AND he was the most powerful being ever born.

The whole point of the prophecy was that the Sith'ari would be the King Adas reborn, who was notable for his power in driving off the Rakata. The Sith'ari would obviously have immense power and represent the pinnacle of the Sith ideal. Thats the prophecy.
Prophesy isn't worthless, the individual who fulfills the prophesy is not necessarily supposed to be a godlike being.

Anakin had that kind of potential but he never peaked, his story was a tragedy.

By the way:

Discovered as a slave on Tatooine by Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan Kenobi, Anakin Skywalker had the potential to become one of the most powerful Jedi ever, and was believed by some to be the prophesized Chosen One who would bring balance to the Force. (From official website of Star Wars, now under Disney)

Similarly, Bane became a powerful Force-user, a standout of his era, fulfilled the prophesy. However, he wasn't supposed to be a godlike being and he isn't.

Originally posted by Nephthys
In what manner?
So you think that Bane is as strong as Sidious?

Originally posted by Nephthys
- So what? He WAS still drawing power from hundreds of Jedi Masters. Even if he only absorbed a small portion of power from each, the amp would be immense. According to you that should make him insurmountable yet the Barsen'thor beat him while she was weakened and after fighting through sorcery-enhanced soldiers. Amps can be overcome.
You are not presenting the whole picture;

1. Barsen'thor learned a special shielding technique with which she could resist influence (plague) of Lord Vivcar unlike other Jedi.

2. Barsen'thor freed many Jedi from influence of Lord Vivcar prior to confronting him, effectively shortening the supply of reserves of Lord Vivcar.

3. Barsen'thor wounded Lord Vivcar during battle and ended the influence of Morrhage's ghost on Parkanas Tank, effectively ending the battle.

Now, there is a possibility that Barsen'thor wounded Lord Vivicar with use of a lightsaber. In addition, Lord Vivicar wasn't a master of Force-walking ritual, he couldn't draw on the power of Force ghosts to fuel his own power like Darth Nox. Lord Vivicar is basically a host possessed by Force ghost of Terrak Morrhage. Fundamental difference in both developments.

Neph, it is always wise to focus on the ground realities and not on black & white notions. You cannot prove that Lord Vivcar is anywhere close to Darth Nox in power.

Originally posted by Nephthys
- Theres no indication Vitiate had to keeps the ghosts under control. He could just put them back to sleep like they were before the game starts. Vitiate was also on a powerful darkside nexus and the Hero had to fight to get to him.
Put them back to sleep? What nonsense is this. Force ghosts are restless entities and they cannot be put back to sleep like you are claiming. Anybody who ventures in to Dark Temple, learns a lesson the hard way.

Emperor Vitiate is the only Force-user in the galaxy who managed to control Force ghosts within Dark Temple, no other individual could pull this off. So yes, Emperor Vitiate was logically under greater pressure while confronting HoT for the second time on top of being weakened by the disruption of his most ambitious ritual. Once again, HoT's victory of Emperor Vitiate is a product of circumstances, not indicative of HoT's incredible power. Don't get me wrong, HoT is incredibly powerful as noted by Emperor Vitiate himself but he isn't a match for the mighty Sith, a godlike being, in a fair setting. No Jedi is.

Originally posted by Nephthys
- So admit that beings unnaturally amped by the power of many others can be eclipsed by naturally extremely powerful Force users.
No, your assessment is misplaced.

Originally posted by Nephthys
- Because Exar Kun is one of the most powerful Sith of all time. He's laughably far above the Sith Nox bound to himself. Even put together Kun is likely equal to or above their power.
roll eyes (sarcastic)

You are not making any sense here. As good as Kun is, he will not match the combined might of like 5 or 6 formidable practitioners of the dark side, 4 of these are Force ghosts. Force ghosts are powerful manifestations of energy, different in nature from a sentient being but have virtually limit-less energy.

Originally posted by Nephthys
- Not because Surik was powerful JUST by being a Force spirit.
I recommend you to read about Force spirits in Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia, then get back to me.

Originally posted by Nephthys
- Because their combined power eclipses Thanatons. But Nox's power doesn't eclipse the likes of Jadus, Malgus, HoT, Barsen'thor, Marr, Scourge, the Wrath and others. All naturally powerful Force users and all peers of Nox.
And you know this how?

Even if we assume that these Force-users are stronger then Thanaton on individual basis (I doubt everybody is), this still doesn't confirms that they are a match for Nox's amplified form.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Only because Kun is so powerful and used an attack Luke didn't know the defense for. Don't act as if any Force ghost could destroy Luke. Kun is the exception, not the rule. His power was immense.
See above

Originally posted by Nephthys
Immortals have limits as well. Nox's power has limits, no matter how amplifed it is. Don't imply otherwise. Nox's limit is still below that of the greatest Jedi and Sith in the mythos.
Yes, every being have limits. However, I am not sure if Nox's amplified form should be used to compare him with mortals naturally strong in the Force.

Do not forget that Nox is also powerful in the ways of the Force, without use of Force ghosts, he isn't a chump without such amplification and he is stupendously powerful with amplification.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Don't care. Jacen still blocked turbolaser cannonfire, which is immensely powerful and Luke is greater than him. He's not faltering against Nox.
Vader also blocked turbolaser canon fire, so Luke being greater then Vader is indicative of him being greater then amplified Nox? Makes no sense to me.

Here is a fact: Luke have limits too. Lord Nyax proved this and he is touted to be one of the most powerful dark jedi of his era, nothing immense.

Originally posted by Nephthys
It was a few days.


No he wasn't. Its utterly ridiculous to think his power would have declined by a noticeable degree in the few days of DOE. I'd say I expect better from you, but your arguments are getting more outlandish every time.
Evidence of few days claim?

I am not suggesting that Bane wasn't even in fighting form. He certainly was strong when he confronted Zannah but not at his peak strength and condition.

My focus is on ground realities on the whole, my assessment isn't outlandish by any stretch of imagination.

The Merchant
No, Jacen used the Force to block Turbolaser fire and I don't think you realize how powerful turbolaser firepower is. Technical manuals say that the Acclamator's turbolaser firepower is 200 Gigatons, which is enough power to blow up entire Islands and leave a crater that's hundreds of kilometers wide.

Q99
Originally posted by The Merchant
No, Jacen used the Force to block Turbolaser fire and I don't think you realize how powerful turbolaser firepower is. Technical manuals say that the Acclamator's turbolaser firepower is 200 Gigatons, which is enough power to blow up entire Islands and leave a crater that's hundreds of kilometers wide.

Mind you, a lot of people say this in bunk and inconsistent with other information due to that level of firepower not being seen even in planetary bombardments.

Q99
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
The word "powerful" is thrown around so easily these days by fans, is their an official source which promotes Maladi as a powerful Force-user?

She's one of Krayt's inner circle (equivalent to dark council/jedi council/etc., and Nihl viewed getting involved with her as likely to result in mutual destruction) and uses Memory Walk, a fairly considerable ability. The Legacy era Campaign Guide describes her as 'Extremely Skilled' IMO.


Pretty much anyone council-level can be reasonable described as 'powerful', IMO.

Nephthys
Any Jedi or Sith Master level being is "powerful" imo.

Originally posted by Q99
Mind you, a lot of people say this in bunk and inconsistent with other information due to that level of firepower not being seen even in planetary bombardments.

Also obviously a gunships turbolasers aren't going to even compare to those mounted on a capital ship like an Acclamator.

Nephthys
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Prophesy isn't worthless, the individual who fulfills the prophesy is not necessarily supposed to be a godlike being.

Anakin had that kind of potential but he never peaked, his story was a tragedy.

By the way:

Discovered as a slave on Tatooine by Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan Kenobi, Anakin Skywalker had the potential to become one of the most powerful Jedi ever, and was believed by some to be the prophesized Chosen One who would bring balance to the Force. (From official website of Star Wars, now under Disney)

Similarly, Bane became a powerful Force-user, a standout of his era, fulfilled the prophesy. However, he wasn't supposed to be a godlike being and he isn't.

All beings of prophecy have been incredibly power at the highest level: Anakin, HoT, Bane, Sidious.

Bane did achieve his potential. He's one of the most powerful Sith ever.

Lol @ using new canon info.


Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
So you think that Bane is as strong as Sidious?

Yes. What area's does Sidious destroy him in? His physical abilities are just as good, his lightning is every bit Sidious' equal, he's got crazy good TK, he can resist Sidious' telepathy etc.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You are not presenting the whole picture;

1. Barsen'thor learned a special shielding technique with which she could resist influence (plague) of Lord Vivcar unlike other Jedi.

2. Barsen'thor freed many Jedi from influence of Lord Vivcar prior to confronting him, effectively shortening the supply of reserves of Lord Vivcar.

3. Barsen'thor wounded Lord Vivcar during battle and ended the influence of Morrhage's ghost on Parkanas Tank, effectively ending the battle.

Now, there is a possibility that Barsen'thor wounded Lord Vivicar with use of a lightsaber. In addition, Lord Vivicar wasn't a master of Force-walking ritual, he couldn't draw on the power of Force ghosts to fuel his own power like Darth Nox. Lord Vivicar is basically a host possessed by Force ghost of Terrak Morrhage. Fundamental difference in both developments.

Neph, it is always wise to focus on the ground realities and not on black & white notions. You cannot prove that Lord Vivcar is anywhere close to Darth Nox in power.

1. So what? That doesn't make him any less powerful. All it means is that they two engaged in a standard duel.

2. She freed 5 Jedi. Vivicar infected hundreds.

3. She beat Vivicar in battle. Proving that even weakened she could beat Vivicar who was amped on hundreds of Jedi Masters.

What does it matter how she beat him? Besides, the Barsen'thor primarily fights with the Force, not a lightsaber. Vivicar not being a Force Walker proves nothing, he was still channeling his victims power. Vivicar being possessed by Morrhage only means Parkanus' power was augmented by Morrhages as well. One of your near-infinitely powerful Force ghosts. roll eyes (sarcastic)

I'm not sure I'd say Vivicar was that close to Nox in power. But the Barsen'thor is. She defeated him despite being weakened and after fighting through sorcery-enhanced troops.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Put them back to sleep? What nonsense is this. Force ghosts are restless entities and they cannot be put back to sleep like you are claiming. Anybody who ventures in to Dark Temple, learns a lesson the hard way.

Emperor Vitiate is the only Force-user in the galaxy who managed to control Force ghosts within Dark Temple, no other individual could pull this off. So yes, Emperor Vitiate was logically under greater pressure while confronting HoT for the second time on top of being weakened by the disruption of his most ambitious ritual. Once again, HoT's victory of Emperor Vitiate is a product of circumstances, not indicative of HoT's incredible power. Don't get me wrong, HoT is incredibly powerful as noted by Emperor Vitiate himself but he isn't a match for the mighty Sith, a godlike being, in a fair setting. No Jedi is.

Someone didn't pay attention in TOR. The spirits in the Dark Temple were slumbering until the excavation team disturbed them. Vitiate could easily have just subdued them again. Theres absolutely nothing indicating he needed to consciously suppress them. If he did, why didn't they attack the Hero as they fled the temple after Vitiates death?

Luke is.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
No, your assessment is misplaced.

Luke > Unuthul, a being drawing on the power of millions of kiliks, how is my assessment misplaced?


Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
roll eyes (sarcastic)

You are not making any sense here. As good as Kun is, he will not match the combined might of like 5 or 6 formidable practitioners of the dark side, 4 of these are Force ghosts. Force ghosts are powerful manifestations of energy, different in nature from a sentient being but have virtually limit-less energy.

Yes he is.

And LOLWUT? Near-limitless energy??? If you actually played the Inquisitor campaign you'd know that Kallig's ghost needs to constantly rest because of how little power he can actually use. Spirits usually aren't as powerful as they were in life.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I recommend you to read about Force spirits in Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia, then get back to me.

Force spirits are dangerous because their nature makes the difficult to affect with the Force and hard for you to block their power. They're not any more powerful than as they would be in life.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
And you know this how?

Even if we assume that these Force-users are stronger then Thanaton on individual basis (I doubt everybody is), this still doesn't confirms that they are a match for Nox's amplified form.

Feats and their respective power.

All of them are above Thanaton. All of them have the feats to suggest a comparison with Nox. Jadus' feat is more powerful than anything Nox has shown, Malgus choked 3 of the Strike Team at once, the Barsen'thor defeated Vivicar and the First Son, the Wrath defeated the Voice etc.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Yes, every being have limits. However, I am not sure if Nox's amplified form should be used to compare him with mortals naturally strong in the Force.

Do not forget that Nox is also powerful in the ways of the Force, without use of Force ghosts, he isn't a chump without such amplification and he is stupendously powerful with amplification.

Well I'm sure and it should be. Mortals have demonstrated equal to or greater Force power than Nox has.

Many people are stupendously powerful in Star Wars. Nox isn't alone in that regard.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Vader also blocked turbolaser canon fire, so Luke being greater then Vader is indicative of him being greater then amplified Nox? Makes no sense to me.

Here is a fact: Luke have limits too. Lord Nyax proved this and he is touted to be one of the most powerful dark jedi of his era, nothing immense.

I don't recall Vader ever blocking turbolaser fire and Vader is hugely powerful and a possible peer of Nox's. Regardless, yes Luke being more powerful than Vader does make him above Nox.

Wasn't Nyax juggling starships or something? The dude WAS immensely powerful.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Evidence of few days claim?

I am not suggesting that Bane wasn't even in fighting form. He certainly was strong when he confronted Zannah but not at his peak strength and condition.

My focus is on ground realities on the whole, my assessment isn't outlandish by any stretch of imagination.

I've read the book dude. Bane goes to a few places, does a few things and the whole book only takes a few days to occur.

So what? Even in his slightly weakened condition he was an amazingly powerful fighter. He'd barely diminished. He'd still take Nox.

No, your opinions are pretty crazy sometimes.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Why do some of them say, "Originally posted by DarthAnt66?"

FreshestSlice
I think it's because he gets in debates with Ant so much. He probably just has quote tags pasted somewhere.

Nephthys
Because you touch yourself at night.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Originally posted by Nephthys
Because you touch yourself at night.

Nope, that's just Ant's soft mitts stroking my tender jewels.

Cheated on, B!tch.

carthage
woah

NewGuy01
Dayumn

DarthAnt66
http://r26.imgfast.net/users/2613/36/14/96/smiles/4206627644.gif

Q99
Originally posted by Nephthys
Any Jedi or Sith Master level being is "powerful" imo.


Well, some exceptions due to getting the level due to politics or diplomacy skills or what have you, but if you're battle-focused, yea, odds are high of 'powerful' being a good description.

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Bump.

DarthAnt66
1.) Vitiate
2.) Revan

Who cares after that. wink

Nephthys
Lol, no.

DarthAnt66
ROFL.

Planet-size wealth of Sith knowledge + the tombs of Korriban + the thought bomb + that Ruusan fire ritual + the Nathema ritual >>>

Nephthys
Oh man, you mean all the knowledge he ripped off from the Ancient Sith? Yeah, I think the originals probably did it better. Freedon Nadd >


BTW Vitiate must have been really ****ing drunk when he told Revan about his Nathema ritual. Like, wtf dude?

DarthAnt66
Top-KEK.

Absolutely nothing suggests Naga Sadow or Nadd even visited Malachor, let alone studied there.

Based on quotes from KotOR 2 and Chronicles, much of Malachor's power can be linked to Vitiate's Empire not Sadow's.

Plus your forgetting Revan was literally inside Vitiate's mind for 300 years.

Basically, nothing but 100% speculation on your part even puts Sadow or Nadd close to Revan's knowledge on rituals.

Accept it. thumb up

Emperordmb
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Plus your forgetting Revan was literally inside Vitiate's mind for 300 years.
Unless he went back and edited his holocron, I fail to see how that has any pertinence to the Thought Bomb ritual.

DarthAnt66
I wasn't referring to that in terms of the Thought Bomb ritual, TBH.

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Unless he went back and edited his holocron, I fail to see how that has any pertinence to the Thought Bomb ritual.
I doubt he did, but he definitely had the chance to during Legacy of the Rakata. Justayingtbh.

Nephthys
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Top-KEK.

Absolutely nothing suggests Naga Sadow or Nadd even visited Malachor, let alone studied there.

Based on quotes from KotOR 2 and Chronicles, much of Malachor's power can be linked to Vitiate's Empire not Sadow's.

Plus your forgetting Revan was literally inside Vitiate's mind for 300 years.

Basically, nothing but 100% speculation on your part even puts Sadow or Nadd close to Revan's knowledge on rituals.

Accept it. thumb up

Uh, Sadow and Vitiate come from the same empire. You know, the original one? Malachor was just a storehouse for that empire, so Sadows line of Sith would have access to the knowledge inside it.

Also Nadd was stated to know every technique, so I kinda doubt there was anything on Malachor he didn't know.

There's no proof Revan stole sorcery secrets from Vitiate. Just your fanon bs. Also Revan wasn't a Sith after he was in there so that doesn't count obviously.


Furthermore, rituals aren't all there is to being a sorcerer. Has Revan ever used sorcery in combat or part of his skill set?

ares834
1.) Palpatine

Who cares after that. wink

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Nephthys
Uh, Sadow and Vitiate come from the same empire. You know, the original one? Malachor was just a storehouse for that empire, so Sadows line of Sith would have access to the knowledge inside it.

Also Nadd was stated to know every technique, so I kinda doubt there was anything on Malachor he didn't know.

There's no proof Revan stole sorcery secrets from Vitiate. Just your fanon bs.
LMFAO.

The fact they had access to it doesn't mean they actually studied it, dipbrain.

Nothing but "your fanon bs" states otherwise.

It's 100% speculation to assume Nadd and Sadow knew all the rituals Revan knew.

And that's not even mentioning rituals like the thought bomb or the Nathema ritual which they didn't have 100%.

Also, Revan specifically stated that he learned "centuries of knowledge" within Vitiate's mind.

This is supported by the fact that he now knew teleportation and how to operate an Eternal Empire device.

I accept your concession.

Nephthys
You missed my edit.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Nephthys
Furthermore, rituals aren't all there is to being a sorcerer. Has Revan ever used sorcery in combat or part of his skill set?
Uh, yeah. erm Especially on the Temple of Sacrifice.

And dude, your prized Bane was in ****ing awe over what Revan knew, kek

Nephthys
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
LMFAO.

The fact they had access to it doesn't mean they actually studied it, dipbrain.

Nothing but "your fanon bs" states otherwise.

It's 100% speculation to assume Nadd and Sadow knew all the rituals Revan knew.

And that's not even mentioning rituals like the thought bomb or the Nathema ritual which they didn't have 100%.

Also, Revan specifically stated that he learned "centuries of knowledge" within Vitiate's mind.

This is supported by the fact that he now knew teleportation and how to operate an Eternal Empire device.

I accept your concession.

The fact that Nadd is stated to know every technique says he does. That ain't fanon, champ. thumb up

And like I said, Revan knowing stuff from Vitiate is irrelevant, not that Revan even implies it's force knowledge. This thread is for Sith Sorcerers. Revan had been dethroned for quite some time before he got gimped by Vitiate.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Uh, yeah. erm Especially on the Temple of Sacrifice.

And dude, your prized Bane was in ****ing awe over what Revan knew, kek

Channeling some machines power isn't sorcery afaik.

When Bane's only comparison was the freaking Brotherhood, sure.

DarthAnt66
Uh, that quote doesn't exist. A quote does say he knew every technique listed in Tales of the Jedi content, though.

And it also says he knows everything also hidden in holocrons / tombs, but Malachor didn't even exist when such a statement was written.

Given you are a proud supporter of the SWTOR and Vitiate cause, I'm quite confident you follow the "Earth time beats Star Wars time".

Plus we also know the latter is an hyperbole anyway given he didn't have access to the Jedi Archives since he wasn't a Jedi Master.

So nah, my point stands. thumb up


Infinite keks @ that desperation there.


Channeling some machines power into a ritual that would have destroyed Yavin IV is. thumb up

And nah, he did a lot of shit on the Temple of Sacrifice. Check out my RT under "Sith Sorcery" for all the details.


Uh, what?

True, Revan had eventually gone back over to the Jedi and the light after being betrayed by Darth Malak. Still, Revan and Malak had come within a hairsbreadth of wiping out the Republic. It was foolish to discount all they accomplished, and even more foolish to ignore the lessons that could be learned from them. Yet Qordis and the other Masters stubbornly refused to spend any time studying the history of the Sith order. Fortunately for Bane, it was a trait they passed along to their students.

It had given him an undeniable advantage over the other apprentices. If nothing else, it had shown him the true potential of the dark side. The archives were filled with accounts of incredible feats of power: cities laid waste, worlds brought low, entire star systems swallowed up when a Dark Lord caused the sun to go nova. Some of these tales were likely exaggerations, myths that had grown with each retelling before being set down on parchment. Yet they had their roots in truth, and that truth had inspired Bane to push himself farther and faster than he otherwise would have dared.

Nai
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Uh, that quote doesn't exist. A quote does say he knew every technique listed in Tales of the Jedi content, though.


"Freedon Nadd has knowledge of all the Jedi and Sith Force powers presented herein as well as those abilities still hidden in ancient Holocrons and tomes." - Tales of the Jedi Companion

Emphasis mine. The Sourcebook equips Nadd with a carde blanche regarding Force powers, specifically for everything predating his lifetime. Which is only logical, because Naga Sadow, from whom Nadd learned everything, is stated to have been one of the most powerful Sith sorcerers ever (see: The Essential Guide through the Force).



Which is entirely irrelevant, because it's a carde blanche. It's a statement written for game masters, enabling them to let Nadd do whatever they want. But if you want to accept such statements as a guideline, it's pretty clear that Nadd is above Revan in terms of knowledge regarding Sith Sorcery.

Even if you want to ignore that statement (as I would, because it is part of the N-Canon game stats), Nadd had learned everything from Sadow. With Sadow being one of the most powerful Sorcerers ever. Which is also pretty apparent if you think about the fact that he was the rival of Ludo Kressh. The same Ludo Kressh that was capable of constructing an amulet that did render the wearer untouchable by any form of outside influence (ranging from lightsaber strikes to a cityblock-busting turbolaser shot from a capital starship).



Urm.
If you were referring to Nadd when stating that he didn't have access to the Jedi Archives, you are applying the PT era rules to TOTJ era characters. There wasn't a restriction like that back in Nadd's time, mainly because they didn't have Sith artifacts in the Jedi Archives, as they had during the PT. There existed only a single Sith holocron in the possession of the Jedi, and that was in the private collection of Odan-Urr before Kun stole it.

Nadd was free to learn what he wanted, and considering he was a prodigy in the Force, it appears reasonable that he did learn all he could from the Jedi during his stay on Ossus.



The same machine that was used by Kun in the same fashion before? The same machine that was constructed by either Kun or Sadow in the sorcery field? Having the ability to press a button on a machinery doesn't mean you know more about it than the guy who constructed the machine.



You're respect thread is laughable, given the hilarious conclusions you draw from certain quotes. Can you please tell me, how this...

"A transcription of the ritual was recorded by Darth Revan and served as the inspiration for Lord Kaan's thought bomb on Ruusan."

...translates into that:

"Revan was the creator of the most infamous Sith weapon in history - the Thought Bomb."

Do you know what a "transcript" is? Essentially, Revan wrote down what Vitiate did, so the "creator of the thought bomb" would still be the Sith Emperor. And furthermore: We know that similar stuff happened without Vitiate's influence. When Kun visists Korriban, Nadd points him to a crytalline pillar in which the souls of defeated Jedi Masters are stored, which looks exactly like the aftermath of a thought bomb in use. And Kun himself later ask the Odan-Urr, if he should imprison the soul of the Jedi Master in a crystal. Does that sound familiar?

For the rest of your laughable conclusions

Out of this:
"Trouble up ahead. I don't know if the Revanites have been experimenting or what, but they've got their hands on the mother of all Massassi."

You conclude that Revan must be responsible for the creation of Malaphar. So because Theron Shan has no idea where that thing comes from, it must have been designed by Revan. And not by, let us say, Sadow or Kun, who are both known for experimenting extensively with the Massassi? Yup. That seems about right. roll eyes (sarcastic)

And lastly, Revan utilizing the Star Forges power to do something, doesn't translate into him using Sith sorcery.

You may want to compare that to Nadd, who apparently learned anything from Sadow. Who, after doing so, went to Onderon and singlehandly conquered the planet, a deed that including destroying an army of beast riders with Sith Sorcery. You know...those warriors riding on rather huge drexls. So give me a call when Revan destroys armies in direct confrontation.



You do realize that the text you have quoted, makes it rather obvious, that - in comparison to the actions of Revan and Malak - Bane considers the stuff that the Ancient Sith have done (here: Kun) so unlikely, that he thinks of it as "exaggerations" and "myths" - when we know that it actually happened? So even for Bane, Revan is inferior to the Ancient Sith (Sadow) and the people that learned from them directly (Nadd, Kun).

Deronn_solo
Moment of silence please, 'cause Ant was just killed by Nai, ngl right now.
thumb up

Beniboybling
Nai vs Ant's Revan Respect Thread tbh http://r35.imgfast.net/users/3513/11/32/39/smiles/841309534.gif

Deronn_solo
My money's on Nai's tbh. He's just too articulate.
http://r35.imgfast.net/users/3513/11/32/39/smiles/841309534.gif

FreshestSlice
Nai talks a lot, but if Ant can overcome that he'd definitely have a shot at majority.

Nephthys
Huh, actually reading that sorcery section (after finding the damn thing in that mess) I'd forgotten that Revan's robes amped him. Interesting.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Nephthys
Huh, actually reading that sorcery section (after finding the damn thing in that mess) I'd forgotten that Revan's robes amped him. Interesting.
CTRL + F "Sorcery"
CTRL + F "Magic"
CTRL + F "Sith Sorcery"
CTRL + F "Sith Magic"
CTRL + F "Force Sorcery"

Damn, so hard, rofl.

Aurbere
As if CTRL + F is that difficult roll eyes (sarcastic)

DarthAnt66
Even then you know it's going to be in the "(Alter)" section of the thread, so shouldn't take more than 15 seconds.

Easier than any other massive RT, IMO.

Beniboybling
You hit a nerve, Neph. thumb up

Nephthys
I'm surprised he hasn't exploded from Nai criticising his RT yet.

Needless to say, I know about Find. It just takes a few minutes to load everything in that pos. Also leaning over to type is for chumps.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Moment of silence please, 'cause Ant was just killed by Nai, ngl right now.
thumb up The Ant I have faith in will see to the defense of the emperor of the Star Wars universe will also definitely volley back. If he is what I hope he is he won't take this lying down.

Ps. Ant, get around to seeing Star Trek: Into Darkness.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Nephthys
It just takes a few minutes to load everything in that pos.Ooh you've done it now. Not using a stable computer or laptop I bet.

DarthAnt66
Responding to this part first since its relevant to me:


Nope.

You're wrong.

I love when you act like the big shot and end up being abortion fodder.

mmm

Some people in SOR said the Temple and the device within it was of ancient Sith orgin, but it was retconned to it being of Eternal Empire origin and created by Emperor Valkorion himself (supposedly).

"The temple was created by the Emperor's design, much like the Eternal Empire. I suspect there could be shared elements in the technology."

"Knowledge is power and here lays the closest technological cousin of the Eternal Empire: the Temple of Sacrifice."

So no, unless Kun, Sadow, or Nadd was the Emperor who made the Eternal Empire, you're blatantly lying and it's yourpostontorpowerprogressionworthy. smile

For future reference, check out:http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/361407467546?ul_noapp=true&chn=ps&lpid=82




LMFAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

DUDE

ROFL ROFL

Damn, this is fantastic.

The "transcript" you are referencing is the ****ing Nathema ritual, not the thought bomb.

Revan wrote down what Vitiate did. Correct. Vitiate did the Nathema ritual.

Revan used said transcript as inspiration for the creation of the thought bomb.

GG. thumb up


Uh, dipbrain.

"Theron Shan believed Revan and his Revanites..."

"Theron Shan believed Revan and the Revanites..."

I make specific notice that it's pure speculation - and even include the quote.

I never concluded "must", I concluded he "might" have.

GG. thumb up

You're like 0 for a thousand at this point.



My thread doesn't have a Sith Alchemy section so it was placed with there. I'll specify once I got home it was Alchemy - must have forgot.

Would that make you feel better? roll eyes (sarcastic) laughing

It's also possibly a corruption feat, though given we don't know a lot of context surrounding it I'll leave it at that.

Nai
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Responding to this part first since its relevant to me:


Nope.

You're wrong.

I love when you act like the big shot and end up being abortion fodder.

mmm


The "abortion fodder" is going to teach you a lesson now, son. Pay attention.



Did you want to bring a source for that quotes to the table, as it's common procedure when introducing them? Because so far, I've seen them from you exclusively.



Oh. Thank you very much. So you want people to buy games, and play them in order for them to find proof for your claims? That's a nice idea, Sir. I'm a bit old-fashioned, though. I like people to bring their own proof to the table. Is that an acceptable procedure for yourself?

Furthermore your attempt to dodge my point has been noted, but, let me say this: By far smarter people in comparison to yourself have tried and failed with that tactic against me. So once let me point your attention to the important fact once again:

Revan was just utilizing machinery, that was not constructed by himself. How is that a testament for his skills in sorcery, especially in comparison to people who have constructed / used similar machinery to perform a similar feat. But - unlike Revan - with success?

You will notice that none of what you said has any impact on the fact that people like Kun and Sadow > Revan. But thanks for trying to debate.



*cough*
That's still not what the quote says. It says that the transcript that Revan made was the inspiration for Lord Kaan's thought bomb. What we know is, that Kaan got the idea from Bane. What we not know is what Bane got from the holocron. The only thing that is mentioned in there, is Revan's transcript from the Nathema ritual. So the "creator" of the thought bomb appears to be Bane - not Revan. And I'm not even going to start to point out how entirely senseless that idea is, since Revan didn't know anything about Nathema before returning to the Sith Empire. Which means that he must have made this addition to the Holocron beyond that point in time. Seems rather senseless to me.

But, as you have, once again, forgot to answer my point entirely:
How does that put Revan above people who came from the same knowledge base as Valkorion and who's inferiors have used similar techniques to combat opponents?

smile



"Theron Shan believed Revan and his Revanites were responsible for the alchemical monster that is Malaphar the Savage, who was possibly the greatest Massassi in history and among the most powerful beings in the galaxy. This is a display of Sith Alchemy, also known as Force Alchemy."

You do list that in a respect thread that deals with Revan's abilities. I wasn't aware that "stuff people maybe did but probably not" is now part of lists of accolades and feats.

But you, once more, forgot to answer my point:
How does that put Revan above people who have come up with similar or even superior creations in the field of Sith Alchemy ?

Let me add a little nod to the other points you ignored: feats for Nadd, Sadow, Kressh in the department and the idea that Bane thought the exploits of people like Kun to be "exeggerations" and "myths" compared to the stuff that Revan did, which he viewed as impressive but very much real.

How about going back to the compilation of quotes and feats, the business that trained monkeys could do, while leaving the intellectual work to those capable of it? Or - maybe - you want to do something useful: Learn how to use "critical analysis", apply it to your respect thread and maybe the result will be something that is worth reading.

ILS
I wonder if he realizes he's speaking to a 14 year old LOL

Deronn_solo
Nai destroying got me like:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/9/93477/4893268-anigif_enhanced-buzz-6230-1390426669-10.gif

FreshestSlice
And the quotes are legit. Talos says them on Yavin.

Nai
Originally posted by ILS
I wonder if he realizes he's speaking to a 14 year old LOL

Really...? roll eyes (sarcastic)

Nephthys
I thought he'd been outted as a 45 year old loser pretending to be 12.

quanchi112
Originally posted by ILS
I wonder if he realizes he's speaking to a 14 year old LOL Who is 14 ?

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