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shifty

I could see Revan beating her through sheer power, similar to how Bane was beating Kas'im.

Good one. Im not sure Revan can do it, Raskta wouldve killed Bane were it not for the orbalisks. Revan isnt as good of a swordsman as Bane, but Raskta shouldnt be much faster than him. Hmmmm

raskta had battle med, something she doesn't have here.

Revan is the superior duelist, I'm rather annoyed you are suggesting otherwise.
Lsu is good, but even with the addition of Battle Meditation and the aid of numerous other Jedi, she failed to even make blade contact with a reckless Bane iirc.
Also, it's embarrassing that despite being an Echani, a master of precognition, she didn't sense Zannah behind her.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Revan is the superior duelist, I'm rather annoyed you are suggesting otherwise.

I agree. Lsu is good but her victories were against New Sith Wars era Sith. Revan has beaten far more impressive foes.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Lsu is good, but even with the addition of Battle Meditation and the aid of numerous other Jedi, she failed to even make blade contact with a reckless Bane iirc.

Not quite. At the start of the fight Lsu landed several hits on Bane, they just couldn't get through his orbalisks. When she realised his head was the only vulnerable target Bane stopped being reckless and started being more defensive. At this point she was joined by Johun and Farfalla. None of them could land a hit on Bane's head but like I said, at that point he had stopped being reckless.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Also, it's embarrassing that despite being an Echani, a master of precognition, she didn't sense Zannah behind her.

To be fair Zannah did use a cloaking spell to shield herself from detection.

She did make blade contact, many times.
She couldn't sense Zannah because she'd hidden her presence with the same technique that let her walk into the Jedi Temple.

Edit:

Ninja'd.

Conceded. I didn't read the book that long ago, but when I did, I didn't pay that much attention to it. Pretty damn awful tbh.


Doesn't matter. A trained Echani+Battle Med+Force Sensitivity should be able to sense that.

You shouldn't be, Raskta is one of the most skilled duelists in the mythos.



Uh, Lsu hit Bane like a dozen times in the span of a couple seconds at one point in the fight.



That's because the battle precognition of the Echani is tactical rather than Force-based. If you listen to the words of Brianna this should be pretty clear.

I got that by the first response back to me, your comment was not needed. Thank you.

Not necessarily. It is a *Force ability*, as shown by when Brianna's speech is over, the Exile get's a new *Force ability*.

This is a game mechanic. Most Echani warriors were not even Force sensitive, even Yusanis falls into this category. Again, Briana's explanations of Echani combat support the talent being strategy based.

"Battle Precognition was a variant of precognition that allowed one to sense the flows of the Force. Jedi Padawan Tallisibeth Enwandung-Esterhazy (better known as "Scout" had this power. The Jedi Knight Revan and Meetra Surik were known to be gifted users of Battle Precognition. Surik learned this ability from Brianna. Darth Bane also possessed a natural ability for precognition before he even began training as a Sith. Nova Stihl possessed a nearly identical ability, which he called Blink.

The Echani were known to possess a variant of this ability which did not draw from the Force but from the warrior's own instincts. The most elite Echani warriors were able to predict battles and even the course of a war. It was probable that such outcomes grew more likely or unlikely as critical moments approached and passed."

Taken from Wookiee because too lazy ^

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Doesn't matter. A trained Echani+Battle Med+Force Sensitivity should be able to sense that.

Lawl. Nope. Zannah's spell of concealment was so powerful that decades after she used it on Ambria it psychically assualted Cognus when she tried sensing in the area.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Not necessarily. It is a *Force ability*, as shown by when Brianna's speech is over, the Exile get's a new *Force ability*.

Isn't Battle Precog a feat, not a force power? It adds your wisdom score to your defense.

Nah, it was a Light Side Force Power.
"Battle Precognition was a Light side Force power which allowed one to sense the flows of the Force and anticipate an opponents moves, increasing reaction time in combat."

Good enough to make Bane not sense her then.

Bane got stabbed six times before he even had a chance to yet to her. Even unamped her reflexes and overall speed should he similar to Revan. Non game mechanics Revan's speed is nothing special

Again, though, that description is not the same as the Echani arts. That which you are referencing is simply the application of precognition in battle, it's an ability that almost all Jedi and Sith can use.

Revan has no game mechanic speed feats in the first place...

Revan's entire fight with the Sith Emperor, and then T3's attack, along with Revan being tortured, only happened in a few seconds. This expresses the immense speed of Revan if he had to cross a throne room at least forty meters long and so much more (the fight itself) in such a short amount of time.
"It all happened in the space of only a few seconds."
―Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan

Revan defeats the legendary Yusanis, perhaps due to his own incredible speed.
"...if Father had been faster... if only Father had been faster..."
―The Handmaiden (Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords)

Revan has slaughtered dozens of Echani, masters of speed.
"The Echani rely heavily on hand-to-hand combat and personal shield technology, and they had their asses handed to them by Revan during the Jedi Civil War, because, not surprisingly, there weren't many people able to face Revan across a battlefield and survive the encounter...In many ways, the Echani see combat as a rapid dejarik game, calculating feints, attacks, and dodges with a speed that few can surpass."
―Chris Avellone (KOTOR Designer)

Revan is said to have incredible reflexes as he pilots the Ebon Hawk.
"the lightning-fast reactions of ..."
―Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan

Revan moves his lightsaber in a bluring motion.
"As Veela and two others-reacting slightly faster than the rest-fired, the green blade transformed into a spinning, twirling blur as he used it to deflect their bolts back in the direction of the shooters."
―Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan

Revan moves his lightsaber faster then Veela Ordo can speak.
"Revan was in motion, his lightsaber flashing to life, before the words had finished spilling from her mouth."
―Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan

Revan moves fast enough to avoid being hit by Basilisk canon fire.
"He charged the nearest rider, zigzagging to keep the Basilisk from getting a clear shot. "
―Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Again, though, that description is not the same as the Echani arts. That which you are referencing is simply the application of precognition in battle, it's an ability that almost all Jedi and Sith can use.
The difference is using the Force (Jedi/Sith) or tactics (Echani).
Revan has been shown to have used both, perhaps why he is such a master at it.

It's hard to speak for Lsu, since her only combat showing was while under the influence of battle meditation. Her speed feats while in that state were immense, though.

None of those speed feats really put him above Raskta though. They're all the usual running in a blur/shield feat that even Qui gon has done. Theyre even more or less

Those speed feats put him relatively near Tython or Vitiate in speed.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
It's hard to speak for Lsu, since her only combat showing was while under the influence of battle meditation. Her speed feats while in that state were immense, though.



She's easily on his level imo.

With the aid of a power that can be a determining factor of an entire war, yeah.

sabers only? I'm thinking Lsu. Specialist for a reason.

Even without it she should be on his level, I meant.

Based on...?
She has no feats outside of Battle Meditation.
Tbh this thread is silly for it's all guessing.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Even without it she should be on his level, I meant.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Based on...?
She has no feats outside of Battle Meditation.
Tbh this thread is silly for it's all guessing.

BM doesn't gibe that much of a boost. Even 75% of what she showed there is on par with him. At least.

Her feats while serving for General Hoth are pretty impressive. Every quote, and then her showing against a completely amped Bane, also impressive. BM is important, true, but that usually more coordinates efforts than it actually makes them more powerful. I'd need a quote or something that gave BM the credit for the speed or skill of her attacks.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The difference is using the Force (Jedi/Sith) or tactics (Echani).
Revan has been shown to have used both, perhaps why he is such a master at it.

Yes, that is why. The only problem is that Raskta Lsu also enjoys both of those talents, and we've seen them in effect:

"The young Jedi marveled at the speed and savagery of Raskta's blades. And while Johun's own clumsy efforts had actually seemed to impede Sarro when they fought side by side, Raskta appeared to thrive off his presence. When he went high, she went low. If he came from the left, she came from the right. It was partly a function of her choice of weapon: individually each of her lightsabers was more precise and accurate than Sarro's giant double blades. But it was more than that. Her reactions were so fast, her combat instincts so pure, that she was able to sense and anticipate what he was going to do even as it happened, then use his attacks to her own advantage."

Thy blind favor o' Revan hath impeded your insight, Ant. There's no way Revan is outclassing Raskta in a sabers-only contest...

Problem? I see no problem, unless...
You are implying Lsu's precognition is similar to Revan's in terms of skill.
If that's the case, then there is a problem. Otherwise, no problem.

Battle Meditation allowed the Republic Fleet to beat the Sith at the Star Forge despite being hilariously outnumbered.

I don't see why you would assume otherwise. Revan benefits from demonstrating both the skills in war that the Echani use, as well as the perceptions provided by the Force. Raskta also can apply both skills, and it's obviously effective.

Then you don't even deserve a response.
His precognition allowed him to totally destroy an Imperial Guard.
His precognition is stated to be better then the greatest Echani masters.
"I always felt Revan was an incredible tactician, and the Echani were awed by his precog and natural skill with tactics."
―Chris Avellone (KOTOR Designer)

Your logic holds the same as if two Force-users can both use Telekinesis, they are equal in power. ****ing ridiculously.

Her precognition allowed her to drive Orbalisk Bane on his heel, killing a guard is irrelevant in comparison.

When has Revan used it in an actual battle though? That IG thing doesn't count, he just used a common feint and blitzed him.

You mean she was capable of pushing back a reckless Bane with the aid of another fully trained Jedi and insane battle meditation?
The main thing with her precognition was that she was coordinating it with the other Jedi. She was not doing all the work herself.

The IG thing completely counts.
It bluntly says "anticipating" in the text.

Nope, she was driving Bane on his heel after specifically telling Farfalla to back off.

Green text is proof of how massive the Battle Meditation amp is.
Bolded green represents a key word for my argument on Battle Meditation.
Bolded red is proof that while she put him in a retreat, Bane wasn't really even trying to deflect her blows. His main goal was to move backwards to eliminate the one who was using the Battle Meditiation amp. Later when actually defending himself, the combined effort of three Jedi failed to injure him for a period of time.


"It had been many years since Farfalla had fought while empowered by Worror's battle meditation. He had forgotten how much quicker and stronger the Ithorian's amazing talent made him feel. The Force flowed through him with greater power, filling him with its might. Yet even with their enhanced abilities, he wondered if they would survive the coming battle.

As they burst into the room a man who could only have been Darth Bane charged recklessly toward them. In any other instance the move would have spelled a quick end to the encounter, as Raskta raced ahead of Farfalla to carve the Sith to pieces.

Raska's blue blades flickered too quickly for the eye to see, neutralizing her enemy's initial, wild attack then landing half a dozen lethal blows to his chest and abdomen. But instead of toppling, the big man kept coming, never even breaking stride. He would have plowed straight into Raskta, trampling her under his heavy boots, had she not cartwheeled to the side at the last possible instant.



Farfalla saw the Sith Lord turn toward him, sensing the intervention that had saved Raskta's life. Bane unleashed a barrage of Sith lightning, gathering and releasing his power at the speed of thought. The Jedi threw up a Force barrier to shield himself, but the electricity tore right through it and arced toward him. Then suddenly Raskta was there to save his life, repaying a debt that was only a few seconds old as she threw herself in front of him. Fueled by Worror's battle meditation, she switched styles seamlessly, and her arms and blades became a blur as they carved figure eights in the air to catch and absorb the bolts of dark side energy.

Their enemy fell upon them again, following up the lightning with pure aggression. Raskta rushed ahead of Farfalla to meet this second charge. She crouched low, viciously slashing at his thighs and calves, attempting to leave their opponent crawling legless on the floor. Her blades carved through his boots and sliced wide gashes in his pants, only to reveal more of the chitinous shells.

Bane brought his lightsaber down at the Echani, who crossed her blades into an X, attempting to block and trap her opponent's weapon at the point of intersection. But the Sith's move was only a feint meant to distract her, and at the last instant he pulled his weapon back and swung an elbow around to catch her in the ribs. The contact lifted her off her feet and sent her sprawling. Then he was past her, and bearing down on Farfalla.

The Jedi Master dropped into an elegant defensive stance to meet the charge.

"The handle!" Raskta gasped as she scrambled to her feet.

The warning caused Farfalla to notice the hook-handled light-saber of his enemy, and the unusual grip it required. This would alter the nature of his attacks, causing them to come in from odd and unfamiliar angles. In the regimented and hyperprecise world of Jedi-Sith lightsaber duels, it transformed his style into something unique and unexpected.

Valenthyne recognized, processed, and reacted to this information in a fraction of a second, allowing him to adjust his own weapon's course just enough to block a strike that otherwise would have slipped along the edge of his blade and taken his arm off at the elbow. Even so, the strength behind the attack tore Farfalla's golden blade from his grip, sending his lightsaber skittering across the floor. Unarmed and helpless before his enemy, he was saved by Raskta.

Knowing that her lightsabers couldn't penetrate Bane's armor, she slid in from behind and scissor-kicked his legs out from under him. He toppled over backward, turning his fall into a roll that ended with him back on his feet. However, the distraction allowed Farfalla to look over and reach out with the Force, calling his weapon back into his hand.

He spun back to the fight to see that the Echani Weapons Master had taken the offensive, sending quick flicks of her blue blades toward Bane's unprotected face-the only spot on his body seemingly not covered by the impenetrable shells. Remarkably, Bane was giving ground.

"Stay back!" she shouted at Farfalla. "You'll just get in the way."

Farfalla did as he was told, gathering the energies of the light side to throw up another protective Force barrier should Bane try to unleash his dark side powers against the Echani.

She seemed to be everywhere at once-in front of Bane, beside him, behind him, circling low, leaping to come in high, deflecting his blade with one of her own then stabbing three quick times in succession at his eyes. The big man's head ducked and bobbed, twisting and turning to avoid her blows as he tried to mount a counteroffensive.

Raskta's mastery of her blades was unparalleled, but even with her talents augmented by Worror's battle meditation she wasn't able to land a telling blow on such a small target through Bane's defenses. Still, the ferocity of her new strategy had turned the momentum in her favor ... or so Farfalla thought.

Bane continued his retreat, circling away from Raskta's blades, then suddenly turned and ran straight toward the unarmed Ithorian standing just inside the door of the room.,

Battle meditation required Master Worror's complete focus; there was no chance for him to mount any type of defense. If Bane cut him down, the others would lose the only advantage that gave them any chance of surviving the encounter.

Farfalla released the power he'd been gathering in a single concentrated burst. Bane was suddenly encased in a shimmering stasis field of light-side energy, freezing him where he stood. But his command of the dark side was too powerful for it to hold him for more than a split second. The shimmering field exploded into fragments as the Dark Lord broke free, though the momentary delay had allowed the Echani to place herself between the Ithorian and the Sith.

Raskta's blades hummed and sang as she engaged him again, determined to keep him from reaching Master Worror at all costs.

He's too strong, Farfalla realized, even as he ran to help her. Both physically and in the power of the dark side. It's like trying to fight a force of nature.

"Johun! Sarro! We need reinforcements!"

Johun turned his head at the sound of Farfalla's voice.

"Go," Sarro shouted at him. "I can handle this one."

The young Jedi looked over to the far side of the room and instantly recognized what was happening. Master Worror was in danger; he had to be protected or his battle meditation-and any hope of victory-would be lost.

He leapt across the room, using the Force to propel him through the air so that he landed only a few meters from where Raskta was dueling Darth Bane, desperately trying to drive him back and away from where Master Worror stood but a meter or two behind her. He hesitated before attacking, noticing that the Sith Lord's skin was covered with a strange, crustaceous growth.

"Go for the face!" Farfalla shouted, arriving on the scene and throwing himself into the battle as Johun did the same.

Together the three of them held the Sith Lord at bay: Farfalla on the left flank, Johun on the right, and Raskta in the center. Between blocks and parries they cut and stabbed at his face, their combined efforts finally forcing their enemy into a defensive stance.

The young Jedi marveled at the speed and savagery of Raskta's blades. And while Johun's own clumsy efforts had actually seemed to impede Sarro when they fought side by side, Raskta appeared to thrive off his presence. When he went high, she went low. If he came from the left, she came from the right. It was partly a function of her choice of weapon: individually each of her lightsabers was more precise and accurate than Sarro's giant double blades. But it was more than that. Her reactions were so fast, her combat instincts so pure, that she was able to sense and anticipate what he was going to do even as it happened, then use his attacks to her own advantage.

On her opposite side Farfalla struck with clean, elegant blows, his form perfect as he harried Bane's right flank. Yet though they were able to hold their ground, they couldn't drive him back or defeat him.

They were at an impasse, none of their attacks able to connect with the one vulnerable part of Bane's anatomy. Then Johun caught a glimpse of white flesh peeking out from the seam between the Sith's armored gloves and the strange shells on his forearm. The gap was narrow, but it was large enough for a well-aimed blade to penetrate.

He slashed at his new target. Amplified by Worror's power, the Force flowed through him and guided his blade home. The contact wasn't perfect; his lightsaber glanced off the edge of the armored shells so that he only made shallow contact with the skin beneath. Instead of severing the hand, he merely sliced deep enough to sever nerves and tendons.

Bane bellowed in rage as his weapon slipped from his grasp, the wound leaving his fingers limp and powerless. But before Johun or any of the others had a chance to finish off their unarmed opponent, they were blown backward by an explosion of dark side energy, their enemy's power fueled by the sharp, sudden pain of his wound.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Bane wasn't really even trying to deflect her blows. His main goal was to move backwards to eliminate the one who was using the Battle Meditiation amp. Later when actually defending himself, the combined effort of three Jedi failed to injure him for a period of time.
Holy **** thank you for pointing that out to me. That is a great example of both his defense and his tactical ingenuity/deception.