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1. Sabers
2. Force
3. Everything

The battle takes place aboard the bridge of the Jacen Solo flagship.

Both fighters have fully healthy bodies, all limbs in tact, and are focused on killing the other person.

Palpatine takes all three. Might have a few issues in sabers, but its nothing he can't handle.

Sidious.

Caedus, ha!

Originally posted by Arhael
Caedus, ha!

Why do you think so?

Sidious in all three.

Caedus can put up a good fight, but he'd need a lot of luck to actually win, IMO.

Originally posted by Q99
Caedus can put up a good fight, but he'd need a lot of luck to actually win, IMO.

Originally posted by Nalaniel
Why do you think so?

1. Caedus badly crippled and battered far more skilled Luke, while Sidious lost plain and square to DE Luke.

2. I haven't seen Sidious doing with Force anything Caedus can't, except Force storm and essence transfer, which are not relevant. However, I've seen Caedus utilize powers in combat that Sidious never showed. It is impossible to determine which one is more powerful. I side with Caedus due to his Chosen One heritage.

3. I find Caedus more cunning and versatile combatant in general, the way he utilizes surroundings and takes advantage of arcane Force techniques. The way he can embrace pain and get stronger from it. When Sidious got his arm chopped off, he started wining. When Caedus got his hand chopped off, next instant he took down Jaina with lightning.

Originally posted by Arhael
1. Caedus badly crippled and battered far more skilled Luke, while Sidious lost plain and square to DE Luke.

Luke was holding back, because he didn't want to kill him. He could have killed him.

Originally posted by Nalaniel
Luke was holding back, because he didn't want to kill him.
I wouldn't say that. But Luke was certainly emotionally compromised at that point.

Like what?

I think caedus might win with sabers.

Sidious wins all 3, but I think Caedus would have a better chance with the Force, than with sabers.

Originally posted by Nalaniel
Luke was holding back, because he didn't want to kill him. He could have killed him.
"Luke blocked and spun inside, landing an elbow smash to the temple that dropped Jacen to his knees. He brought his own knee up under Jacen's chin, hearing teeth crack-and relishing it. He parried a weak slash at his thighs, then drew his blade up diagonally where his nephew's chest should have been"

"Luke landed a snap-kick to the stomach that lifted Jacen a meter off the deck, then followed it with a slash to the neck- "

You are correct because Caedus was totally survive being dissected in half or beheaded...


Define emotionally compromised? Luke was angry but he had no doubts. Just looking at the quotes above it is clear that Luke was much more lethal and effective than he normally is. I challenge you to find a single example, where Luke would make such deadly, lethal and effective combat combinations. I doubt that anyone but Caedus could overcome such blows and give his own in return.


Like using Force on opponent's vertebrae to paralyze him. Like using Force illusions. Like blocking lightsaber attacks with Force shield. Like Shatterpoint. Like getting empowered by pain, I am sure Palpatine is capable of it too but he doesn't have as impressive feats of it as Caedus. Also, both Luke and Jacen developed an overloading techniques, which allows them to draw heavier on other Force at expense of their cells burning out.

Originally posted by Arhael
1. Caedus badly crippled and battered far more skilled Luke, while Sidious lost plain and square to DE Luke.

Luke was being made stronger by Leia unlocking "potential he didn't even knew he had." Luke didn't beat Sidious of his own volition.
Kol Skywalker. Anyway as to your other points, Palpatine knews all Force powers known currently. Caedus can't do anything that Palpatine can't.

Jaina is nowhere near as powerful as Luke, especially not an amped Luke. Comparing Sidious' inability to overwhelm him to shocking his sister, who he dies from, is kind of pointless. I've never seen anything that shows Caedus is more cunning than Sidious. And the ability to use pain doesn't matter when you're already dead.

Luke was fighting recklessly in that fight. Caedus hurting him has more to do with that then any supposed parity between the two.

He did. Audio novel confirms that Leia was mere observant during their saber duel, so no. All she did is help him to be in the right mind set.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Luke was fighting recklessly in that fight. Caedus hurting him has more to do with that then any supposed parity between the two.
If only you could prove it anyhow. None of the quotes depict Luke making any reckless mistakes. Luke performs better, when angry, as demonstrated against Vader and Lumiya.

Regardless, in Unifying Force Jacen faced Slayers like Luke and his performance wasn't far behind. He improved since and his fight against Luke is a good demonstration of that.

Originally posted by Arhael
He did. Audio novel confirms that Leia was mere observant during their saber duel, so no. All she did is help him to be in the right mind set.

That's still an amp, or are you trying to entertain Desaan>Sidious? Or are you saying that Luke needed help to stay in that state of mind, i.e. an amp.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
That's still an amp, or are you trying to entertain Desaan>Sidious? Or are you saying that Luke needed help to stay in that state of mind, i.e. an amp.
That's not an amp. Luke had conflicted emotions until Leia helped him to return to lightside and be in right mindset to fight at his best.

In versus thread we assume that character will fight at his best, which is what Luke did, when he fought Sidious. That's for you to prove that Luke wasn't as good fighter against Caedus, than he was against Sidious. Or are you suggesting that Luke with almost 30 years more experience is not as good as DE Luke?

Originally posted by Arhael
That's not an amp. Luke had conflicted emotions until Leia helped him to return to lightside and be in right mindset to fight at his best.

In versus thread we assume that character will fight at his best, which is what Luke did, when he fought Sidious. That's for you to prove that Luke wasn't as good fighter against Caedus, than he was against Sidious. Or are you suggesting that Luke with almost 30 years more experience is not as good as DE Luke?
Luke wasn't balanced in that fight, so what is your point. And it's an amp because Luke did not have access to said power on his own. Leia had to help Luke reach reserves of potential he had not previously accessed.

In a versus thread, when it's actually about them, sure, expect the best, but that's not what happened when Luke fought Caedus. He himself states about how unbalanced his emotions were, and about how close he and Ben had come to the Dark Side. How is that not imbalanced?

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
In a versus thread, when it's actually about them, sure, expect the best, but that's not what happened when Luke fought Caedus. He himself states about how unbalanced his emotions were, and about how close he and Ben had come to the Dark Side. How is that not imbalanced?
So... can you prove Luke wasn't fighting his best against Caedus or that he wasn't as effective as he was against Sidious?

Fact remains that Caedus fought far more experienced and versatile Luke and battered him badly, while Sidious did not leave a scratch. Your assumptions about Luke being amped in one instance or hampered in another remain as such.

Even if Luke said that his emotions were unbalanced. How does it prove that performance was hampered? It's not a first time Luke came close to the darkside. He did the same against Vader and Lumiya and guess what, it granted him better performance.

Originally posted by Arhael
So... can you prove Luke wasn't fighting his best against Caedus or that he wasn't as effective as he was against Sidious?

Fact remains that Caedus fought far more experienced and versatile Luke and battered him badly, while Sidious did not leave a scratch. Your assumptions about Luke being amped in one instance or hampered in another remain as such.

Even if Luke said that his emotions were unbalanced. How does it prove that performance was hampered? It's not a first time Luke came close to the darkside. He did the same against Vader and Lumiya and guess what, it granted him better performance.
A more experienced Luke fought a much weaker than Palpatine Adept in Desaan and was caught off guard with TK. During DE, Luke is still well below Palpatine, and knew that he needed help.

Vader was not trying to kill Luke in either encounter, and Caedus is stronger than both him and Lumiya. While anger does give a temporary boost to strength, it also leaves one open up to fatal mistakes, especially when they do not normally fight as such and their power does not come from it. Luke becoming sloppy is why he was hurt, imo. The fact that he is more experienced is the only reason he was able to hurt Caedus as well. Luke has never fought well against anyone on Caedus' level, using anger, while also coming out unscathed.

Originally posted by Arhael
So... can you prove Luke wasn't fighting his best against Caedus or that he wasn't as effective as he was against Sidious?

Fact remains that Caedus fought far more experienced and versatile Luke and battered him badly, while Sidious did not leave a scratch. Your assumptions about Luke being amped in one instance or hampered in another remain as such.

Even if Luke said that his emotions were unbalanced. How does it prove that performance was hampered? It's not a first time Luke came close to the darkside. He did the same against Vader and Lumiya and guess what, it granted him better performance. Luke is at his most effective when he's calm, level headed, and focussed. Not when he's in a bloodlusted rage watching his son getting tortured. Just on the basis that his focus was split between the fight and his son proves his performance was hampered.

Light side Luke refused to fight Vader so naturally darkside Luke did better.

The lumiya example kind of goes again ur point since this was Luke's mindset moments before going to confront lumiya - "but apart from the fact that he was now minus everything good in his heart except Ben, Luke felt like his old self for the first time in years. He felt clarity. He knew what he had to do, and there were no grey areas or ambiguities about who was right and who was wrong. For all his pain the sense of clean focus gave him something to cling to."

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
A more experienced Luke fought a much weaker than Palpatine Adept in Desaan and was caught off guard with TK. During DE, Luke is still well below Palpatine, and knew that he needed help.
Experienced enough to outduel Sidious. Example with Dessan's TK is hardly relevant because well... it's TK.


What's the point of comparing Vader and Caedus? How is it relevant?
Lumiya is indeed not on level with Caedus, however, she uses lightwhip, which required Luke to use second lightsaber to counter until final battle. It is impossible to determine how difficult it was to duel with her comparing to Caedus.

If as you say Luke was sloppy, there is no indication of that in the text whatsoever. All we get is lethal combos from Luke that Caedus barely survives and counters with his own. Both characters show the best of what they can offer.


The key words you said: calm, level headed, and focused.

Yes, calmness helps, so does anger. Doubts hamper. Luke had no doubts whatsoever. Clear intent to kill. Clear desire to protect his son - a very powerful emotion I must say.

He was definitely level headed and focused. Slash in the kidney elbow in the temple, knee in the chin, knee in the gut, feign attack followed by Force blast, another elbow in the face. Do you really think not level headed and unfocused character would be able to deliver those combos? Throughout entire fight Luke was shown to be thinking and strategical. He was not portrayed as a mindless beast, you imply he was.

Sidious takes all three in a good/close fight.

Luke defeated DE serious 30 years ago, Caedus came near to stalematin him and or killing him. It seems to me that Caedus would be far superior to DE sidious, it seems DE Sidious is just far outclassed.

Originally posted by Board Walker
Luke defeated DE serious 30 years ago, Caedus came near to stalematin him and or killing him. It seems to me that Caedus would be far superior to DE sidious, it seems DE Sidious is just far outclassed.

I lol'd.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
I lol'd.

Sidious...imo.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
I lol'd.

Why is it comical, am I missing something?

It just seems that if Luke in his state of power as well as expertise defeated DE Sidiuos 30 years ago, then a luke 30 years later would be far superior to DE sidious.

Upon that same line of logic darth caedus who battered LOTF Luke, would be able to trounce DE sidious.

Originally posted by Board Walker
Why is it comical, am I missing something?

It just seems that if Luke in his state of power as well as expertise defeated DE Sidiuos 30 years ago, then a luke 30 years later would be far superior to DE sidious.

Upon that same line of logic darth caedus who battered LOTF Luke, would be able to trounce DE sidious.
Luke when he was more calm and collected pinned Caedus to a chair with the force, and Caedus was unable to break free.

Lumiya told Caedus he was more powerful than Vader had been, but she didn't mention Palpatine. If Caedus had become more powerful than both Vader and Sidious, wouldn't Lumiya have told him?

Well Vader was 80% of Palapatines full power, and if Caedus was 10x more powerful than Vader it would make sense that he eclipsed Sidious.

I also think this is supported by the fact that DE Luke surpassed DE sidious, and LOTF luke was vastly superior to DE Luke. Caedus was on the same level as LOTF Luke, which would put him far ahead of DE Sidious.

Originally posted by Board Walker
Well Vader was 80% of Palapatines full power, and if Caedus was 10x more powerful than Vader it would make sense that he eclipsed Sidious.
LOL nope

Originally posted by Board Walker
I also think this is supported by the fact that DE Luke surpassed DE sidious, and LOTF luke was vastly superior to DE Luke. Caedus was on the same level as LOTF Luke, which would put him far ahead of DE Sidious.
When Luke was in his normal state of mind, he was capable of pinning Caedus to a chair with the force and rendering him immobile.

Originally posted by Board Walker
Well Vader was 80% of Palapatines full power, and if Caedus was 10x more powerful than Vader it would make sense that he eclipsed Sidious.

I also think this is supported by the fact that DE Luke surpassed DE sidious, and LOTF luke was vastly superior to DE Luke. Caedus was on the same level as LOTF Luke, which would put him far ahead of DE Sidious.

Caedus was not on the same level as FOTJ Luke. He may have been more powerful than some of the other Masters ( such as Kyp Durron), but Luke, when level headed, showed just how far the power gap really is, between them. He held Caedus against the wall of his office with just a look. Caedus, meanwhile, was unable to to break free. Caedus is more powerful than Vader, but Luke is still number 1, and it's a considerable gap. Just for my indormation, though, where was it stated Caedus was 10x more powerful than Vader?

Originally posted by Emperordmb

When Luke was in his normal state of mind, he was capable of pinning Caedus to a chair with the force and rendering him immobile.
Caedus didn't try to counter it with Force though, so irrelevant. By his own admittance he was caught off guard anyway.

Originally posted by Arhael
Caedus didn't try to counter it with Force though, so irrelevant. By his own admittance he was caught off guard anyway.
Caedus actually did try to break free, but was completely unsuccessful.

Originally posted by Board Walker
Well Vader was 80% of Palapatines full power, and if Caedus was 10x more powerful than Vader it would make sense that he eclipsed Sidious.

I also think this is supported by the fact that DE Luke surpassed DE sidious, and LOTF luke was vastly superior to DE Luke. Caedus was on the same level as LOTF Luke, which would put him far ahead of DE Sidious.

You really should read more about Darth Sidious.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Caedus actually did try to break free, but was completely unsuccessful.
He tried to "move" and was unsuccessful. At no point it mentions him trying to use the Force. He tried to avoid any provocation.

Luke was enraged at that time actually:
Luke stopped at the door and looked back, the rage in his face now softening to what looked like remorse.

But as I said, Jacen did not try to use Force, he simply tried to move and was unable to, so dismissed.

So how close was Caedus to Luke in terms of overall power if both were not gimped by plot induced stipulations? Such as prior injuries, being ambushed, losing a hand, etc.

Hi Board Walker

Hello realslimshady25

Originally posted by Board Walker
So how close was Caedus to Luke in terms of overall power if both were not gimped by plot induced stipulations? Such as prior injuries, being ambushed, losing a hand, etc.
Who knows. Both have baggage of feats. It's entirely down to your opinion.