Darth Nihilus vs The Sith Emperor

red8

Vitiate is far more knowledgeable about the Dark Side and wields a far greater mastery over the force. Vititate's destruction of Nathema is of a greater magnitude than Nihilus' feat on Katarr. Vitiate is undoubtedly the superior Sith Lord.

But none of that matters. Nihilus' raw power is enough to stop Vitiate. Nihilus' monstrous force drain (to the best of my knowledge) requires little preparation. His TK is impressive and his saber skills are underrated. After being severely weakened, he still managed to almost overwhelm the Exile, Visas Marr, and Canderous in a duel.

I'll quote the hyperbole that was used in the Revenge of the Sith novel.

Instead of talking about Dooku's saber skills, imagine the quote talking about Vitiate's knowledge of the force.

Vitiate could definitely beat Nihilus, but in a straight-up fight, Nihilus would win more often than not.

NewGuy01

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Um didn't Nihilius do that on a Nexus? I mean this forum tends to take those things into account so... Yeah.

Yes but he also ripped it out of a gravity vortex, according to Ant.

NewGuy01

Also, up to his time Vitiate is canonically the most powerful avatar of the Dark Side, moreso than Darth Nihilus.

Darth Nihilus really needs to have new material to change his horrendous handling in KOTOR--I thought how he appeared in Legacy was really cool, even though it contrasted with his other appearances.

DarthAnt66

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Yes but he also ripped it out of a gravity vortex, according to Ant.
According to me? Do you not know how the Mass Shadow Generator works?
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Mass_Shadow_Generator

NemeBro

Plus he keeps his ship together while it travels the galaxy.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
I've seen nothing to suggest Vitiate is a Force Wound, so I don't see why it wouldn't.
Vitiate is corporeally immortal, Force Drain cannot undo this. Emperor Vitiate continuously siphoned energies of some of his immortal servants and they didn't perish, those servants felt weakened but did not perish because of immortality.

Vitiate is master of Force Drain as well, he can give Nihilus a taste of his own medicine in this respect. If Nihilus gets drained, I am sure he would not last long.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by ares834
Lightning is countered by a saber.
It is not a guaranteed defense, specially against Emperor's powers.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by NemeBro
Plus he keeps his ship together while it travels the galaxy.
His ship remained intact after he was vanquished.

Arhael

I keep seeing this claim of Nihilus ripping ship out of Malachor. First, is there actual proof that he used TK or it's just one of those rumored vague feats? The ship's engine was working including hyperspace travel, why would he used TK at all?

Also, where would he get so much Force power available? I thought he was hungry, a few non-sensitives he fed off shouldn't be enough at all.

Nephthys

It's stated he pulled it out.

FreshestSlice

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Vitiate is corporeally immortal, Force Drain cannot undo this. Emperor Vitiate continuously siphoned energies of some of his immortal servants and they didn't perish, those servants felt weakened but did not perish because of immortality.

Vitiate is master of Force Drain as well, he can give Nihilus a taste of his own medicine in this respect. If Nihilus gets drained, I am sure he would not last long.
You have no proof of the first statement. Nothing ever suggests that Vitiate was trying to kill anyone he was draining off of besides Nathema. Second, Force Drain does not work on Force Wounds, it rebounds back to the one started the drain.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
His ship remained intact after he was vanquished.
Actually, it wasn't. They blew it up to prevent it from crashing into the Citadel Space Station.

Arhael

Originally posted by Nephthys
It's stated he pulled it out.
Does it attribute it to TK though or whatever means? It's too vague to give it any meaning.

Sinious

I highly doubt that Nihilus' drain would work against Vitiate and if it doesn't kill him, Vitiate will win this.

Nephthys

Originally posted by Arhael
Does it attribute it to TK though or whatever means? It's too vague to give it any meaning.

Do you think he used a big crane to get it off?

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
You have no proof of the first statement. Nothing ever suggests that Vitiate was trying to kill anyone he was draining off of besides Nathema. Second, Force Drain does not work on Force Wounds, it rebounds back to the one started the drain.
I am not talking about Nathema event.

Sith Emperor is a master of Force Drain talents. He transformed some of his minions in to immortal beings so he could siphon energies from them virtually endlessly and they would not perish.

Corporeal immortality is a product of sorcery, it is such a powerful transformation that it guarantees survival against Force Drain talents.

After trapping Revan, Emperor began to drain him as well. Revan survived by draining energy from Force ghost of Surik in turn. Otherwise, Revan would have perished.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Actually, it wasn't. They blew it up to prevent it from crashing into the Citadel Space Station.
The ship would have crashed after loss of crew.

However, if Nihilus was really holding the ship together, shouldn't it have disintegrated after his fall?

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Sinious
I highly doubt that Nihilus' drain would work against Vitiate and if it doesn't kill him, Vitiate will win this.
It won't.

Vitiate transformed some of his minions in to immortal beings so he could endlessly drained them to fuel his power. Those minions felt weak continuously due being drained but they didn't die because of immortality. Such cruelty.

FreshestSlice

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I am not talking about Nathema event.

Sith Emperor is a master of Force Drain talents. He transformed some of his servants in to immortals so he could siphon energies from them virtually endlessly and they would not perish.

Corporeal immortality is a product of sorcery, it is such a powerful transformation that it guarantees survival against Force Drain talents.

After trapping Revan, Emperor began to drain him as well. Revan survived by draining energy from Force ghost of Surik.

He wasn't trying to kill Revan. The only time he has actively tried to kill anyone with Drain is Nathema. It also doesn't guarantee survival against anything except natural death. As Nihilus Drain is designed to take away the Force not life, the point is irrelevant.

The crew that is flying it is still there. And as the ship starts to blow up as soon as Nihilus is dead, but is not destroyed unless the bombs are in place, I'll assume he was holding it together.

See the above. As soon as he dies, it starts to fall apart, but to think that he held every atom together is kind of crazy.

Nephthys

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
The ship would have crashed after loss of crew.

However, if Nihilus was really holding the ship together, shouldn't it have disintegrated after his fall?

It's in space, so theres no gravity. Without inertia there'd be no reason for it to fall apart.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
He wasn't trying to kill Revan. The only time he has actively tried to kill anyone with Drain is Nathema. It also doesn't guarantee survival against anything except natural death. As Nihilus Drain is designed to take away the Force not life, the point is irrelevant.
Nihilus performs Force Drain.

Force Drain would eventually kill an individual after the individual's life energy is fully sucked/siphoned from him/her by the power.

Point is that Emperor Vitiate cannot be killed with Force Drain because of his immortality. He also have the option to drain others since he is a master of these talents.

Nihilus is not immortal so he won't survive Force Drain unless he drains the opponent in turn to prevent his demise. However, he is unlikely to hold against an immortal for long in this kind of struggle.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
The crew that is flying it is still there. And as the ship starts to blow up as soon as Nihilus is dead, but is not destroyed unless the bombs are in place, I'll assume he was holding it together.
This is confusing.

The ship should disintegrate after fall of Nihilus, if he was holding it together. It didn't disintegrate after his fall but was blown up by bombs.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
See the above. As soon as he dies, it starts to fall apart, but to think that he held every atom together is kind of crazy.
I am not asserting that Nihilus had to hold every atom together.

Suppose that ship have 4 sections. These sections are not properly joined and would break loose. Nihilus is holding all sections together with his power in the Force. So if Nihilus falls, the ship should disintegrate.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Nephthys
It's in space, so theres no gravity. Without inertia there'd be no reason for it to fall apart.
Bro, stuff splits even in the space. Gravity does not prevents disintegration.

Nephthys

Only if theres some force working on it. Don't you know anything about science!?

S_W_LeGenD

Disintegrated parts would slowly drift away from each other. Yes, I know a great deal about science.

Here is an example: http://www.reuters.com/article/2014...EA251PE20140306

Space doesn't prevents disintegration, if an object breaks up in to fragments, it will split.

Nephthys

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Disintegrated parts would slowly drift away from each other. Yes, I know a great deal about science.

Here is an example: http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/06/us-space-asteroid-idUSBREA251PE20140306

Space doesn't prevents disintegration, if an object breaks up in to fragments, it will split.

Slowly. The ship was blown up very soon after his death.

Yes, because its moving and like I said, has inertia. The Ravager didn't.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Nephthys
Slowly. The ship was blown up very soon after his death.

Yes, because its moving and like I said, has inertia. The Ravager didn't.
Ravager was not in motion?

Nephthys

Not that I know of.

Arhael

Originally posted by Nephthys
Do you think he used a big crane to get it off?
No. Got a crew involved that fixed engines and flew ship.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Nephthys
Not that I know of.
Interesting.

This leaves possibility for Nihilus to be holding his ship together. Wow.

So Nihilus had to contend with Exile and her allies while holding his ship together? Damn

Are you sure Ravager was not in motion?

FreshestSlice

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Nihilus performs Force Drain.

Force Drain would eventually kill an individual after the individual's life energy is fully sucked/siphoned from him/her by the power.

Point is that Emperor Vitiate cannot be killed with Force Drain because of his immortality. He also have the option to drain others since he is a master of these talents.

Nihilus is not immortal so he won't survive Force Drain unless he drains the opponent in turn to prevent his demise. However, he is unlikely to hold against an immortal for long in this kind of struggle.

Have you played the game? Nihilus doesn't use the standard drain. He, Kreia, and all the students on Malachor use a different version that drains the Force, not life, from a person. Second, Nihilus doesn't have a body and is pure Force Energy inside a robe. Third, incase you didn't see it the first time, Force Drain does not work on Force Wounds. It'll rebound and drain you instead. This is why Nihilus was defeated over Telos IV.

Why would this happen? Nihilus had the ship over Telos without moving, planing to drain the entire planet. The ship would cling together because nothing else is moving the ship, unless some outside force acted on it. Either way, the ship begins to fall apart as soon as he dies, not when the bombs go off. I'm guessing you didn't actually play KotOR II. And why would the ship disintegrate? It was atomized anywhere else, so why would it disintegrate now?

DarthAnt66

Originally posted by Nephthys
Even just from drawing on Vitiate's power an Imperial Guard was able to negate Revan's TK and Revan's TK is very good. So I see Vitiate's defense as being very impressive.
Darth Nihilus has a similiar feat. The power that holds in his mask is able to turn any non-Force sensitive from an average Joe to someone with the skills and powers of a full-fledged Sith Apprentice.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And even weakened, wounded and exhausted Vitiate was able to collapse the Dark Temple. So I also don't see a full strength Vitiate as being terribly far from Nihilus in TK. While I agree Nihilus currently is superior in that area, I don't think he'll be ragdolling Vitiate or reducing him to a smear.
? Darth Nihilus' best telekinetic feat was at his arguably weakest state.

Nephthys

You would lose that argument. erm

Originally posted by Arhael
No. Got a crew involved that fixed engines and flew ship.

Which part of that would you describe as "pulling" it off the planet?

DarthAnt66

Originally posted by Nephthys
You would lose that argument. erm

He just suffered from the devastation of Malachor V and his hunger is not filled at all.

Nephthys

He hadn't just suffered from it. This was after his training with Traya. His hunger was sated.

His weakest state was when the Exil beat him. Obviously. If it wasn't then he would still have been able to lift capital ships in their fight so he would have stomped her.

DarthAnt66

I was under the assumption he ripped the ships out to leave Malachor V.

Nephthys

He trained with her on Malachor V. :I

He ripped out the ships to get off after his training.

DarthAnt66

Proof they trained on Malachor V?

And training or not, it wouldn't make a difference.
There would be virtually no life for Nihilus to feed off of on Malachor V.

Nephthys

Seriously? It says so in the game loading screens and in Kotor CG.

There were other survivors which he fed on. It says so in the Kotor CG.

DarthAnt66

Not necessarily. I always got the impression that Darth Nihilus left Malachor V, traveled around for a bit, then Darth Traya found him and brought him back to Malachor V. Otherwise it wouldn't make sense that she had to "hunt" him, because he was already there.

I am aware, but not many. I honestly would never go as far to say that there were any more then a 100 survivors.

Nephthys

You can hunt someone across a planet. And I would know. >:]

Regardless, its stated in game that he trained on Malachor, he was stranded on Malachor, found by Traya on Malachor... so thats that.

FreshestSlice

The CG makes it seem like Nihilus was running out of people to feed on and was trapped on Malachor because he didn't know how to use his power. How would that happen if he was already free to roam the galaxy?

DarthAnt66

Originally posted by Nephthys
You can hunt someone across a planet. And I would know. >:]

Regardless, its stated in game that he trained on Malachor, he was stranded on Malachor, found by Traya on Malachor... so thats that.
It wouldn't be that hard for wound-hunter to find a wound in the Force on a planet with virtually nothing. Do you have any quotes that he was found by Traya on Malachor V?

And like I said, it still doesn't matter. The energy of only a few survivors is not even remotely comparable to the likes of Katarr or devoured planets.

NewGuy01

If that's the case though, there is no gravity vortex. Nihilus, on the galaxy's most powerful nexus, lifted his capital ship under normal circumstances, then.

Again, Vitiate was the most powerful avatar of the dark side the Jedi had ever been up against--Darth Nihilus is included in that assessment.

Also, Freshest pointed out something I found interesting--How the Trayus Sith drained the force from their victims rather than life, this is true... I hadn't made any such differentiation until now, but that explains why Traya's drain severed the Councillors from the Force.

DarthAnt66

Don't be stupid now, Sasukedc. It is confirmed numerous times over the gravity vortex of Malachor V following the Mass Shadow Generator. erm

NewGuy01

So Traya trained Nihilus in a gravity vortex? Sounds tricky.

Edit: Loving the sig addition.

FreshestSlice

Nihilus pulled his ship from a Mass Shadow Well, but all of Malachor isn't a gravity vortex.

NewGuy01

Wait, I thought the M.Shadow was planet-scale devastation?

FreshestSlice

It was, but the wells hold the pieces of the planet together. Some areas, like the wells, have really strong gravity that pulls down ships. Others aren't. If the entire planet were a gravity vortex, I doubt that Traya would be able to fly there, let alone get off planet.

To be clear, the Mass Shadow generator used natural occurrences on the planet. The wells were already present there.

ares834

It was. But, IIRC, the generator was off. At the end of kotor 2 in the LS ending you reactivate it.

Nephthys

Its possible to walk around on Malachor, its just extremely unpleasant and hard. Or something.

ares834

Man. That game really went to shit at the ending. Shame, it had such potential.

FreshestSlice

Originally posted by ares834
It was. But, IIRC, the generator was off. At the end of kotor 2 in the LS ending you reactivate it.
The wells are there even if the generator is off. The wells are what made it so destructive to begin with.

As for the game having so much potential, it was kind of out there from the start. Nihilus and Sion were crazy enough before the whole explanation of the Exile's power. Still the treatment it gets isn't deserved.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Have you played the game? Nihilus doesn't use the standard drain. He, Kreia, and all the students on Malachor use a different version that drains the Force, not life, from a person. Second, Nihilus doesn't have a body and is pure Force Energy inside a robe. Third, incase you didn't see it the first time, Force Drain does not work on Force Wounds. It'll rebound and drain you instead. This is why Nihilus was defeated over Telos IV.
Do I need to? Their is no such thing as standard Force Drain.

Through their focus on these elements of the Force, the Sith have developed terrifying powers, such as the ability to drain a being of its life force, or unleash their hatred as crackling bolts of energy. (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)

Darth Traya indeed teaches the newly christened Darth Nihilus to harness his life-draining gift to radical heights - so effectively, in fact, that Nihilus saps Traya's powers in a calculated double-cross. (KoTOR-CG)

KoTOR-CG points out that Darth Nihilus is proficient in Force Drain (written as Drain Force sometimes), Dark Healing and Force Sever talents (written as Sever Force sometimes).

Notice the word life-force and life-draining in official quotes? These are such semantics but meaning is the same.

Also, yes, Force Drain would sap powers of an individual and eventually kill the individual. Only known methods to prevent this fate is to either counter-drain or having special conditions such as corporeal immortality and (Force) Wound.*

I have informed you again and again that Emperor Vitiate subjected some of his minions to Force Drain, he granted immortality to these minions to prevent them from dying. But since these minions were being drained, they felt weak and their powers (ability to call upon the Force) diminished. They were in the same position as Darth Traya found herself after being drained by Darth Nihilus.

Here:

Servants of the Hand share their Master's longevity, living untouched by age for centuries under his command. In return, Emperor draws on his servant's strength in the Force and body to feed his ever-increasing power, leaving the servants withered and frail. (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)

Servants are immortal so they endure Force Drain but they are in similar situation like Darth Traya found herself after being drained by Darth Nihilus.

If Emperor Vitiate would target any normal Force-user with Force Drain, he would achieve same results that Darth Nihilus did. Both are masters of this talent.

Get it now?

---

Emperor Vitiate cannot be destroyed with Force Drain because of his condition (Corporeal Immortality). And he isn't going to loose his powers like Darth Traya, he is too powerful. Otherwise, his rivals could subject him to Force Drain and dispose him off. Do the math.

As far as Force Wound argument is concerned, I figured that Darth Nihilus is a Force Wound. He is immune to Force Drain as well, I acknowledge.

In the nutshell, Force Drain is moot point for both Darth Nihilus and Emperor Vitiate in this contest. Both will need to resort to other methods to defeat each other but Emperor Vitiate have advantage and he will likely succeed.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Why would this happen? Nihilus had the ship over Telos without moving, planing to drain the entire planet. The ship would cling together because nothing else is moving the ship, unless some outside force acted on it. Either way, the ship begins to fall apart as soon as he dies, not when the bombs go off. I'm guessing you didn't actually play KotOR II. And why would the ship disintegrate? It was atomized anywhere else, so why would it disintegrate now?
Noted

---

*Whenever Revan was subjected to Force Drain by Emperor Vitiate, he survived by counter-draining Force Ghost of Meetra Surik.

DarthAnt66

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Do I need to?
To debate against him? Yes.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
To debate against him? Yes.
No, he doesn't even understands the concept of Force Drain. I had to explain to him this matter right above. You need to read it as well.

The only thing I learned from him is that Darth Nihilus could be possibly holding his ship together as originally claimed by one of his servants.

DarthAnt66

Once again, I can't grasp how someone can debate a character they merely read a Wookieepedia article on.
If you played the game, it would be blatantly obvious his drain is different from others.

His drain can't be taught. Someone like Bane's can.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Once again, I can't grasp how someone can debate a character they merely read a Wookieepedia article on.
If you played the game, it would be blatantly obvious his drain is different from others.

His drain can't be taught. Someone like Bane's can.
It is responses such as these that are really irritating.

I have explained the concept of Force Drain using KoTOR-CG and SWTORE, not wookieepedia.

Their is no such thing as a different Force Drain. Read my explanation above.

People take Traya's bullshit too seriously.

DarthAnt66

I read it. And it confirms you have not played the game, or even read Darth Traya's descriptions.
I respect you more then nearly all the members here LeGenD, but tbh this is too far.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I read it. And it confirms you have not played the game, or even read Darth Traya's descriptions.
I respect you more then nearly all the members here, LeGenD, but tbh this is too far.
Playing the game doesn't solves this issue.

Traya was too paranoid of Darth Nihilus, she had been manipulating others throughout to further her agenda. She does not knows everything, she is right about some stuff and wrong about some stuff. She told Meetra Surik scary stories about Darth Nihilus so she could convince Meetra Surik to kill him.

KoTOR-CG is not a fallible source, it explains what Force Drain is and same is true for SWTORE.

Force Drain consumes life-force of an individual, in essence, it saps the powers of an individual and eventually kills him/her.

When Darth Nihilus subjected Darth Traya to Force Drain, he sapped her powers, verified in KoTOR-CG. Emperor Vitiate also achieved similar results against those whom he targeted with Force Drain. Heck, Darth Traya achieved similar results with Force Drain (She killed 3 Jedi Masters with this power).

Their is no such thing as a special Force Drain. Only those who have fallen for bullshit of Darth Traya, are taking this too far and it is getting irritating.

Force Drain is Force Drain, whether it is unleashed by Revan, Nihilus, Emperor Vitiate, Traya or every other damn Force-user. It does the same thing.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Here's what I read: "My opinion >Traya's word" Despite all the evidence to the contrary, you're stuck in the mindset that Drain Force and Drain Life are not the same thing, despite the in mythos support saying otherwise. Drain Force and Force Drain are not the same thing. And nothing supports that is.
I didn't realize that revelations in official sourcebooks represent my personal opinion. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Force Drain and Drain Life are synonyms of the same talent.

Darth Traya's explanations have created more confusion then clarifying what Force Drain is. She have history of manipulating others, she could be lying to Meetra Surik because this is a dark side ability and teaching it to Meetra Surik presented risk of another Darth Nihilus in the making because Meetra Surik was also a Wound like Darth Nihilus during this time. Meetra Surik eventually found out the truth when she witnessed Darth Traya using Force Drain to kill the Jedi Masters in front of her.

This is like people being used to believe that Earth is flat in history but then some explorers and researchers pointed out that this belief is wrong. But nope! Burn the witches for even daring to challenge commonly believed misconceptions. Blasphemy.

FreshestSlice

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I didn't realize that revelations in official sourcebooks represent my personal opinion. roll eyes (sarcastic)

The sourcebook doesn't say that Nihilus and Traya use the same type of drain as everyone else.

It sure is. Too bad what Traya and Nihilus use is Drain Force, not Drain Life.

No. It really doesn't. The Exile herself is able to use Drain force when she kills Jedi Masters. Traya goes on to say that it is unteachable. Not that Force Drain is unteachable, but that the ability to destroy ones connection to the Force and consume their power is unteachable. I suggest that you research more, sense that is the key. Kreia also didn't fear the Exile going to the Dark Side. In fact, that exactly what she wanted. For the Exile to go to the Dark Side, cast aside all teachings of the Jedi and the Sith and to then end the Force itself, which she very much might have done as a wound. In fact, the sourceguide you keep trying to misquote says that Traya wants these Force Wounds for this very purpose. Traya only wants Nihilus dead for betraying her.

No it's not. It's you not evening properly examining the evidence shown to you, and then claiming that the Earth is Mars, with even your sources saying otherwise.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
The sourcebook doesn't say that Nihilus and Traya use the same type of drain as everyone else.
The sourcebook did not establish that Darth Nihilus and Darth Traya learned a special variant of Force Drain or something.

Following are the noted talents:-

- Drain Force (Darth Revan; Darth Nihilus)
- Dark Healing (Darth Malak; Darth Traya; Darth Sion)

I am not sure why Darth Traya have not been pointed out to have Drain Force talent, she seemingly have this talent as apparent from her actions against some Jedi Masters.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
It sure is. Too bad what Traya and Nihilus use is Drain Force, not Drain Life.
Do you even understand the meaning of word "synonym"?

Drain Force, Force Drain and Drain Life are synonyms of the same talent. These are not different Force powers.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
No. It really doesn't. The Exile herself is able to use Drain force when she kills Jedi Masters. Traya goes on to say that it is unteachable. Not that Force Drain is unteachable, but that the ability to destroy ones connection to the Force and consume their power is unteachable. I suggest that you research more, sense that is the key. Kreia also didn't fear the Exile going to the Dark Side. In fact, that exactly what she wanted. For the Exile to go to the Dark Side, cast aside all teachings of the Jedi and the Sith and to then end the Force itself, which she very much might have done as a wound. In fact, the sourceguide you keep trying to misquote says that Traya wants these Force Wounds for this very purpose. Traya only wants Nihilus dead for betraying her.
- Meetra Surik does not have this talent. Your choices in the game are irrelevant.

- Darth Traya was lying about the "unteachable" aspect.

- Force Drain is used to consume life-force of a living being, by doing so, it diminishes the being's ability to call upon the Force and kills the being. It is possible that Force Drain can disrupt a being's connection to the Force. It is also possible that Darth Traya used Force Sever talent in-conjunction with Force Drain talent to achieve the kind of outcome that you have pointed out.

- I am aware of Darth Traya's agenda but she wasn't teaching Meetra Surik ways of the dark side. She instructed her in the ways of the Jedi only. Darth Traya was mad but she didn't want to create Nihilus(es), her experience with one was enough for her.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
No it's not. It's you not evening properly examining the evidence shown to you, and then claiming that the Earth is Mars, with even your sources saying otherwise.
You are believing in the bullshit of Darth Traya, and this is a problem. You can consult sourcebooks to find out what Force Drain is about. Do it.

Sinious

Originally posted by FreshestSlice

Kreia also didn't fear the Exile going to the Dark Side. In fact, that exactly what she wanted. For the Exile to go to the Dark Side, cast aside all teachings of the Jedi and the Sith and to then end the Force itself, which she very much might have done as a wound. In fact, the sourceguide you keep trying to misquote says that Traya wants these Force Wounds for this very purpose. Traya only wants Nihilus dead for betraying her.
.

I really don't think so. During the last confrontation of the game, she says that she is disappointed and that the Exile wasted herself if you choose to be dark side and if you're light side aligned, she praises you.

Nephthys

Traya and Nihilus' technique is unique, Legend. In the case of regular drain it merely drains some power from the target and replenishes the energy needed to perform the technique in the first place, but their drain increases their own power permanently. Their drain also drains the target totally, leaving a hole in the Force. It also works in a unique way and has unique effects that other forms of drain don't.

Of course, you'd know this if you actually played the game.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Nephthys
Traya and Nihilus' technique is unique, Legend. In the case of regular drain it merely drains some power from the target and replenishes the energy needed to perform the technique in the first place, but their drain increases their own power permanently. Their drain also drains the target totally, leaving a hole in the Force. It also works in a unique way and has unique effects that other forms of drain don't.

Of course, you'd know this if you actually played the game.
You are confusing Dark Healing with Force Drain.

Darth Malak used Dark Healing to replenish his energy from the Jedi captives while fighting Revan.

Darth Traya, Darth Nihilus and Emperor Vitiate used Force Drain to feed on others to fuel their power and even kill.

Also, Darth Nihilus didn't gets permanent power boost by feeding on others. He would get temporary boost because he had no connection with the Force after becoming a Wound. He needed to feed on others to survive, his power was dependent upon feeding on others.

I don't need to play the game to figure out nature of actions performed by these characters. I have sourcebooks to consider and rely upon.

Nephthys

Nihilus did get more powerful from feeding on others. Just like the Exile did. This is confirmed in the actual game. Its "temporary" for Nihilus only because of the cravings the technique causes, which btw no one else ever experiences for using Force drain.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Nephthys
Nihilus did get more powerful from feeding on others. Just like the Exile did. This is confirmed in the actual game. Its "temporary" for Nihilus only because of the cravings the technique causes, which btw no one else ever experiences for using Force drain.
Darth Nihilus had no connection with the Force because of his Wound condition so he depended upon others for strength. He instinctively acquired Force Drain talent and used it to feed on others to satiate his hunger and gain power to use the Force. Hunger was a side-effect of his condition.

Darth Traya was correct in the sense that Darth Nihilus would perish if his food supply runs out, his food supply were other living beings. The assumption that Darth Nihilus had infinite power of the Force at his command have no basis, he lost his connection to the Force and he could not call upon the Force to perform actions like a normal Force-user. His powers are dependent upon the strength acquired from feeding on others but power acquired in this way wasn't fixed or constant because it was dispensed by performing tedious feats such as holding the flagship Ravager together and performing additional actions. The lack of connection with the Force resulted in this instability. This is why Darth Nihilus needed to feed on others endlessly.

When Darth Nihilus attacked a world (i.e. Katarr), he acquired sufficient strength to carry on his activities for a certain period of time. When strength (obtained in this manner) began to diminish due to being dispensed in various activities, he needed to feed again and sought another world to consume on mass scale. An endless cycle.

FreshestSlice

Originally posted by Sinious
I really don't think so. During the last confrontation of the game, she says that she is disappointed and that the Exile wasted herself if you choose to be dark side and if you're light side aligned, she praises you.
She praises the Exile no matter what, what she's disappointed in is the Exile following one doctrine. If you choose Light Side choices, she'll say you've learned nothing and so on.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
How can one be a wound in the Force and also have strength like a Force-user?

A wound in the Force does not have connection with the Force, this implies that such an individual is like a normal person.

When Darth Traya and Meetra Surik met, they formed a bond. I am not sure who was responsible for this development but Surik's strength came from this development. Your revelation implies that Meetra Surik was somewhat like Darth Nihilus by virtue of her condition and she benefitted from her kills.

Darth Nihilus, however, was not stable. He had to feed on others to gain strength and he had to continue this activity for his survival. His hunger simply motivated him or forced him to continue to feed on others, it was a side-effect of his condition but Meetra Surik did not had this side-effect.

Existence again becomes unbearable, but then hope materializes. (KoTOR-CG)

&

However, as Nihilus greedily consumes entire planet's life energy, the dark side macerates him even faster. But no matter. Nothing matters except his hunger. Before it devours him totally, Nihilus uses its power to displace his persona into his robes and armor. As his useless body disintegrates, he becomes living primitive intention; at last whole galaxy becomes food - for Nihilus has become the hunger. (KoTOR-CG)

My point is that Darth Nihilus acquires strength by feeding on others, his strength is not permanent and not his own. It was necessary for him to feed or he would have eventually perished.

No. A Force Wound is not someone cutoff from the Force. Malachor V was wound in the Force while remaining one of the most powerful nexi that the galaxy has ever seen. The Exile was cutoff from the Force because she severed herself from it. The strength of this sever combined with the Mass Shadow Generator is what made her a Force Wound. Nihilus was never cutoff from the Force.

Sinious

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
If you choose Light Side choices, she'll say you've learned nothing and so on.

She says the exact same thing if you choose dark side.

FreshestSlice

Not if you say you'll stick a saber through her face.

Selenial

LeGenD stop talking about games you haven't played.

The council scene that Neph links explains literally everything you've got wrong, at Least youtube it or something, Jesus.

Selenial

Originally posted by Sinious
She says the exact same thing if you choose dark side.

No, she'll say that but she won't mean it either way.

If you sacrifice yourself for the galaxy, or become the next Dark Lord of the Sith, she'll praise you to no end.

Selenial

I lold.

1- Wrong, you'd know if you played the game
2- A ridiculous "theory" with no base
3- Incorrect, as Force Sever doesn't work on light Siders.
4- Also incorrect, she taught her both in the hopes that mastering both sides would allow her limitless power, she wanted a Grey force user, like her, willing to be whatever she needed to be for the galaxy to survive..

But of course, you'd know that if you played the game.

FreshestSlice

I'm starting to think Drew might know more about the game than LeGenD does.

Selenial

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
I'm starting to think Drew might know more about the game than LeGenD does.

Or maybe LeGenD IS Drew?

Nephthys

He doesn't love Revan and Bane enough to be Drew.

DarthAnt66

Based on emails I have with Drew, he doesn't like Revan either tbh.

FreshestSlice

So Karpyshyn being LeGenD is confirmed then. Although LeGenD thinks that Revan is Yoda tier, so I don't know.

Selenial

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
So Karpyshyn being LeGenD is confirmed then. Although LeGenD thinks that Revan is Yoda tier, so I don't know.

Split personality disorder?

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
No. A Force Wound is not someone cutoff from the Force. Malachor V was wound in the Force while remaining one of the most powerful nexi that the galaxy has ever seen. The Exile was cutoff from the Force because she severed herself from it. The strength of this sever combined with the Mass Shadow Generator is what made her a Force Wound. Nihilus was never cutoff from the Force.
Didn't Meetra Surik become a Wound by cutting herself from the Force?

Revan attempted to find her by augmenting his senses to galactic scale at one point but couldn't because Meetra Surik had no connection with the Force during this time.

I think Obsidian have done a terrible job at explaining its own stuff properly. This could be the reason that SWTOR project was not granted to Obsidian by authorities. At-least, BioWare knows how to explain stuff properly.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Selenial
LeGenD stop talking about games you haven't played.

The council scene that Neph links explains literally everything you've got wrong, at Least youtube it or something, Jesus.
Playing the game would improve my knowledge but it would not change ground realities of certain things that I have learned from other sources.

Originally posted by Selenial
I lold.

1- Wrong, you'd know if you played the game
2- A ridiculous "theory" with no base
3- Incorrect, as Force Sever doesn't work on light Siders.
4- Also incorrect, she taught her both in the hopes that mastering both sides would allow her limitless power, she wanted a Grey force user, like her, willing to be whatever she needed to be for the galaxy to survive..

But of course, you'd know that if you played the game.
Nothing to laugh at, the concept of Force Drain have been explained in multiple sourcebooks and they are more credible then ramblings of a manipulating witch that is Darth Traya.

Also, the manner in which you respond, this is not the correct way to debate. You present information that contradicts or dispels my arguments. You don't just say wrong and be done with it. Learn how to debate.

FreshestSlice

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Didn't Meetra Surik become a Wound by cutting herself from the Force?

Revan attempted to find her by augmenting his senses to galactic scale at one point but couldn't because Meetra Surik had no connection with the Force during this time.

I think Obsidian have done a terrible job at explaining its own stuff properly. This could be the reason that SWTOR project was not granted to Obsidian by authorities. At-least, BioWare knows how to explain stuff properly.
Yes, the Exile became a Force Wound by cutting herself off from the Force. That does not mean that Nihilus is also cut off from the Force, as he became a Wound for a very different reason.

Besides Karpyshyn, much like you, not having any idea about how Force Wounds work, for starters every Force Sensitive could still feel the Exile because Force Wounds "scream out in the Force," the Exile just wasn't in the known galaxy to begin with.

Or maybe you can just face the fact that you just don't know what you're talking about. How would you know what Obsidian has done a terrible job doing, when you haven't even seen it for yourself?

Second, the reason BioWare was went to for making the Old Republic is BioWare wrote KotOR to begin with. Obsidian was the backup group for KotOR II, and just like with many of their games, they were given an engine from a previous company to make it. Why would LucasArts skip over the people who actually wrote most of the characters for the people who made this sequel? You want to blame Obsidian for something, blame their shitty coding.

Though I'm done trying to explain an entire game to someone who's very clear in not wanting to actually understand it.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Yes, the Exile became a Force Wound by cutting herself off from the Force. That does not mean that Nihilus is also cut off from the Force, as he became a Wound for a very different reason.

Besides Karpyshyn, much like you, not having any idea about how Force Wounds work, for starters every Force Sensitive could still feel the Exile because Force Wounds "scream out in the Force," the Exile just wasn't in the known galaxy to begin with.

Or maybe you can just face the fact that you just don't know what you're talking about. How would you know what Obsidian has done a terrible job doing, when you haven't even seen it for yourself?

Second, the reason BioWare was went to for making the Old Republic is BioWare wrote KotOR to begin with. Obsidian was the backup group for KotOR II, and just like with many of their games, they were given an engine from a previous company to make it. Why would LucasArts skip over the people who actually wrote most of the characters for the people who made this sequel? You want to blame Obsidian for something, blame their shitty coding.

Though I'm done trying to explain an entire game to someone who's very clear in not wanting to actually understand it.
Wounds can be sensed but their identities cannot be determined through instinct.

How the hell would Revan identify Surik from the entire galaxy with her being a Wound when other Wounds existed as well?

Instead of blaming me and others for lack of knowledge, use common sense.

Also, my lack of playing KoTOR II has become a reference point in this thread, all of you so-called veterans and experts should come forward and educate me then. What is the purpose of debate if you run away from one. Do not blame for loopholes in explanations of stuff in the unpolished work that is KoTOR II.

FreshestSlice

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Wounds can be sensed but their identities cannot be determined through instinct.

Explain Marr going directly to the source knowing it was the Exile. All Force wounds aren't the same, and their number is obviously small enough to identify them. Kreia could tell the Exile from Nihilus.

There were two that we know of still alive. Revan didn't know the Exile was a Force Wound so he would never find her. However, that's beside the point, because the Exile was not even in Republic Space.

Or accept that you have to actually know something to know it.

I don't care that you haven't played KotOR II. What irks me is that you criticise, judge, debate, and claim knowledge on material you clearly don't have that much information on. Then, when literally everyone tells you that you are wrong, that the game clearly shows the difference in between two sets of information, you shake your head and say no, because the guide, even when the guide doesn't say what you say it does. Honestly, it's a major waste of my time to continue replying to the exact same points over and over because you just don't want to accept that Nihilus may be more powerful and unique than you understand.

DarthAnt66

Summary of KotOR 2:
You go to some planets while this old lady talks in your head.
A fat guy tries to eat Alderaan but he can't because you are there.
You meet some Jedi Council guys but they are assholes and look weird.
You meet Mandalore and kill the fat guy easily, despite him being able to eat worlds.
The Jedi Council then tries to kill you but the old lady saves you, but turns out shes evil.
You go to an dark planet, get shit kicked in by the natives, then solo a Sith Academy and kill the lady.

Nephthys

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Wounds can be sensed but their identities cannot be determined through instinct.

How the hell would Revan identify Surik from the entire galaxy with her being a Wound when other Wounds existed as well?

Instead of blaming me and others for lack of knowledge, use common sense.

Also, my lack of playing KoTOR II has become a reference point in this thread, all of you so-called veterans and experts should come forward and educate me then. What is the purpose of debate if you run away from one. Do not blame for loopholes in explanations of stuff in the unpolished work that is KoTOR II.

You can read it all here. Hopefully.

Selenial

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Nothing to laugh at, the concept of Force Drain have been explained in multiple sourcebooks and they are more credible then ramblings of a manipulating witch that is Darth Traya.

Also, the manner in which you respond, this is not the correct way to debate. You present information that contradicts or dispels my arguments. You don't just say wrong and be done with it. Learn how to debate.

That's cute.

You know you're wrong so you refuse to respond, poor kid.

FreshestSlice

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Summary of KotOR 2 Every Star Wars story ever:
You go to some planets while this old lady talks in your head.
A fat guy tries to eat Alderaan but he can't because you are there.
You meet some Jedi Council guys but they are assholes and look weird.
You meet Mandalore and kill the fat guy easily, despite him being able to eat worlds.
The Jedi Council then tries to kill you but the old lady saves you, but turns out shes evil.
You go to an dark planet, get shit kicked in by the natives, then solo a Sith Academy and kill the lady.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Explain Marr going directly to the source knowing it was the Exile. All Force wounds aren't the same, and their number is obviously small enough to identify them. Kreia could tell the Exile from Nihilus.

There were two that we know of still alive. Revan didn't know the Exile was a Force Wound so he would never find her. However, that's beside the point, because the Exile was not even in Republic Space.

Or accept that you have to actually know something to know it.
So you are asserting that Darth Nihilus was not cut off the Force like Meetra Surik?

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
I don't care that you haven't played KotOR II. What irks me is that you criticise, judge, debate, and claim knowledge on material you clearly don't have that much information on. Then, when literally everyone tells you that you are wrong, that the game clearly shows the difference in between two sets of information, you shake your head and say no, because the guide, even when the guide doesn't say what you say it does. Honestly, it's a major waste of my time to continue replying to the exact same points over and over because you just don't want to accept that Nihilus may be more powerful and unique than you understand.
Look, I am not doubting your knowledge about KoTOR II, but you cannot educate me about ground realities of Force Drain. I don't need to play KoTOR II to understand what Force Drain is about.

Other then this, you are welcome to inform me stuff that I am not aware of.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Selenial
That's cute.

You know you're wrong so you refuse to respond, poor kid.
I am not wrong about ground realities of Force powers. The rest, I can learn from others.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Nephthys
You can read it all here. Hopefully.
Thanks for the link.

Selenial

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I am not wrong about ground realities of Force powers. The rest, I can learn from others.

Unfortunately, the game shows that you are wrong, you just haven't played it.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Selenial
Unfortunately, the game shows that you are wrong, you just haven't played it.
Darth Traya and Darth Nihilus used Force Drain. This power can be used to feed on life-force of living beings and also to kill. If used on a Force-user, it may sap powers of the target in the process.

Emperor Vitiate also performed these actions, he used Force Drain during the ritual of Nathema to consume all life on the planet. Later on, Emperor Vitiate used this power on some of his corporeally immortal servants to feed on their life-force, the power left these servants weak and diminished their ability to call upon the Force but they wouldn't die because of immortality. This is similar to situation of Darth Traya after being subjected to Force Drain from Darth Nihilus.

Darth Traya also confirmed that Force Drain is an ancient power, she is correct about this. However, her claim that this power cannot be taught to others is in question, she and Revan learned this power from somewhere and didn't acquire it instinctively. Emperor Vitiate didn't get formal draining so he learned this power instinctively like Darth Nihilus.

Once again, don't try to teach me about ground realities of Force powers. I don't need to play a game to determine how Force powers work.

Selenial

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Darth Traya and Darth Nihilus used Force Drain. This power can be used to feed on life-force of living beings and also to kill. If used on a Force-user, it may sap powers of the target in the process.

Emperor Vitiate also performed these actions, he used Force Drain during the ritual of Nathema to consume all life on the planet. Later on, Emperor Vitiate used this power on some of his corporeally immortal servants to feed on their life-force, the power left these servants weak and diminished their ability to call upon the Force but they wouldn't die because of immortality. This is similar to situation of Darth Traya after being subjected to Force Drain from Darth Nihilus.

Darth Traya also confirmed that Force Drain is an ancient power, she is correct about this. However, her claim that this power cannot be taught to others is in question, she and Revan learned this power from somewhere and didn't acquire it instinctively. Emperor Vitiate didn't get formal draining so he learned the power instinctively like Darth Nihilus.

Once again, don't try to teach me about ground realities of Force powers. I don't need to play a game to determine how Force powers work.

This is absolutely nothing to do with what we were talking about.

Stop trying to change the subject.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Selenial
This is absolutely nothing to do with what we were talking about.

Stop trying to change the subject.
What exactly you are pointing that I got wrong?

FreshestSlice

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
So you are asserting that Darth Nihilus was not cut off the Force like Meetra Surik?

I think that should be obvious. The only thing that separated Surik from Nihilus is that she was able to give up and live without the Force.

And what you still don't seem to get is that KotoR II established a lot of new and different views of how the Force works and its anomalies. Unless you've experienced it, by playing, watching, or examining it very closely, you will never know anything about what happens in it. This is why the game swirls with so much controversy. It isn't like most pieces of EU material.

Nephthys

Kotor II is different from everything else in the EU. Its not as simple as reading a Wookieepedia article.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
I think that should be obvious. The only thing that separated Surik from Nihilus is that she was able to give up and live without the Force.
I'll ponder over this, member Beniboybling confused me about this matter.

If Darth Nihilus is not cut off from the Force, then he have some baseline strength. However, Darth Traya claimed that he would fall if he runs out of food supply, food supply is other living beings.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
And what you still don't seem to get is that KotoR II established a lot of new and different views of how the Force works and it's anomalies. Unless you've experienced it, by playing, watching, or examining it very closely, you will never know anything about what happens in it. This is why the game swirls with so much controversy. It isn't like most pieces of EU material.
This is what I have gathered so far:

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Darth Traya and Darth Nihilus used Force Drain. This power can be used to feed on life-force of living beings and also to kill. If used on a Force-user, it may sap powers of the target in the process.

Emperor Vitiate also performed these actions, he used Force Drain during the ritual of Nathema to consume all life on the planet. Later on, Emperor Vitiate used this power on some of his corporeally immortal servants to feed on their life-force, the power left these servants weak and diminished their ability to call upon the Force but they wouldn't die because of immortality. This is similar to situation of Darth Traya after being subjected to Force Drain from Darth Nihilus.

Darth Traya also confirmed that Force Drain is an ancient power, she is correct about this. However, her claim that this power cannot be taught to others is in question, she and Revan learned this power from somewhere and didn't acquire it instinctively. Emperor Vitiate didn't get formal draining so he learned this power instinctively like Darth Nihilus.

Once again, don't try to teach me about ground realities of Force powers. I don't need to play a game to determine how Force powers work.

The only difference is that KoTOR II goes to depth to explain the nature of Force Drain power. BioWare keeps explanations simple in comparison.

Sinious

True. It has this amazing dark, even a bit gothic style that makes you actually understand the force's both sides. I honestly felt the serenity in Dantooine and the evil of the triumvirate while I played it. Playing it a few times makes it even better as you miss out some parts at first.

FreshestSlice

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I'll ponder over this, member Beniboybling confused me about this matter.

If Darth Nihilus is not cut off from the Force, then he have some baseline strength. However, Darth Traya claimed that he would fall if he runs out of food supply, food supply is other living beings.

That's because when Nihilus isn't feeding, he's feeding on himself.

Then you obviously still don't understand. The version of Force Drain seen in KotOR II is a different variation called Drain Force. Even in game, they are two separate powers. Drain Life, i.e. what you keep claiming Force Drain is, steals the life from an individual. It kills them by stealing their "life energy." Drain Force is a variation that can only be taught by being a Force Wound, or by staying on Malachor V. It doesn't take life energy away. It forcibly removes one from the Force, killing them. The user also consumes this power and becomes stronger, permanently. The Exile, because she was cut off from the Force, did not indulge in feeding on others, and so did not develop the problem that Nihilus did. Nihilus overindulged on feeding and began feeding on himself. This version of Force Drain also does not work on Force Wounds and has no defense against it.

All said in game, and shown throughout the story. It's pretty well explained.

Sinious

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
That's because when Nihilus isn't feeding, he's feeding on himself

Which is one of the reasons why I rank him below Vitiate. Along with millennia of experience, insane FLS and mind domination.

Also he randomly pulled of a feat where he summons copies of himself while he was weakened. I'm sure he had a lot of other feats like that and could use them against Nihilus. Although his knowns feats are enough to prove his superiority imo.

FreshestSlice

Nihilus at full strength would be more than a match for Vitiate, but this isn't about who's more powerful. This is about who would win in a duel. And those copies are literally the saddest thing the HoT fights besides Callef.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
That's because when Nihilus isn't feeding, he's feeding on himself.
Noted

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Then you obviously still don't understand. The version of Force Drain seen in KotOR II is a different variation called Drain Force. Even in game, they are two separate powers. Drain Life, i.e. what you keep claiming Force Drain is, steals the life from an individual. It kills them by stealing their "life energy." Drain Force is a variation that can only be taught by being a Force Wound, or by staying on Malachor V. It doesn't take life energy away. It forcibly removes one from the Force, killing them. The user also consumes this power and becomes stronger, permanently. The Exile, because she was cut off from the Force, did not indulge in feeding on others, and so did not develop the problem that Nihilus did. Nihilus overindulged on feeding and began feeding on himself. This version of Force Drain also does not work on Force Wounds and has no defense against it.

All said in game, and shown throughout the story. It's pretty well explained.
Look, I understand what Force Drain is. You are still confused about this matter actually.

Do you recall what happened during ritual of Nathema? Emperor consumed entire biota of the planet, including the Force itself surrounding the planet and left the planet a void in the Force.

Emperor and Nihilus acquired same power which is Force Drain, both learned it instinctively. Both mastered this power to its highest degree.

Force Drain, Drain Force, Drain life are all synonyms of the same power.

Darth Traya also learned this power, she unleashed it on 3 Jedi Masters and outcome was same what Darth Nihilus achieved with it.

In a game, same power have stages or different variants. But this is simply game mechanics. Just like this: Force lightning -> Chain lightning -> Force Storm.

KoTOR II is an old source, it is not necessary that it got everything right. Newer sources tend to improve older concepts.

Nephthys

Just ignore him guys. He's rambling on about things he doesn't know about and trying to retcon things he doesn't like.

Sinious

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Nihilus at full strength would be more than a match for Vitiate, but this isn't about who's more powerful. This is about who would win in a duel. And those copies are literally the saddest thing the HoT fights besides Callef.

What does that even mean? Nihilus at full strength means that he consumes every force user in the galaxy and Vitiate had a similar vision.

Galaxy consumed Vitiate > Galaxy consumed Nihilus.

So if you are referring to Nihilus peak which is probably right after Katar, he is definitely not more than a match. If the drain doesn't work, he would still be vulnerable and it wouldn't be a stomp.

NewGuy01

"The Sith Emperor has mastered the dark side's power to become the most dominating Force-user the galaxy has ever seen. His corrupting influence is so complete that none can stand in his presence without succumbing to fear, anger and hatred. The Emperor can wither and ruin even the strongest Jedi's connection to the light side."

Vitiate is canonically the most dominating Force User the Galaxy has ever seen, no one predating him surpasses him in terms of power. Not Exar Kun, not Nomi Sunrider, and not Darth Nihilus.

That said, it's hard to truly judge what a fight between Darth Nihilus and another top-tier Force User would be like.

FreshestSlice

You've obviously just ignored what I said, and while Drain Force and Drain Life are two separate powers, not even in the same tree like you just tried to imply, I was talking about the one used in cutscenes which is said to be different. I'm not confused about anything, Nathema became a wasteland because all the life there died. This made Natema a wound in the Force.

Anyway, I'm done. If you think your opinions somehow override every other source, be my guest.
Originally posted by Sinious
What does that even mean? Nihilus at full strength means that he consumes every force user in the galaxy and Vitiate had a similar vision.

Galaxy consumed Vitiate > Galaxy consumed Nihilus.

So if you are referring to Nihilus peak which is probably right after Katar, he is definitely not more than a match. If the drain doesn't work, he would still be vulnerable and it wouldn't be a stomp.
Nihilus at the fullest extent of his power shown, not at the highest possible form, why would you even think that, would be a match for Vitiate. There's no reason for Drain not to work, and he still has godly TK, as well as dominating a duel while weakened with three combatants. Obviously Galaxy Vitiate is one a whole other level, but Vitiate as we see him is comparable with a powered Nihilus.

Selenial

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
What exactly you are pointing that I got wrong?

That Surik can't use Force drain, it's an innate talent of her wound which we've seen strike down all the Jedi Masters

and

Traya did teach the Exile dark techniques and tried to refrain her from just using the light, she wanted her Grey. So you're wrong by saying Traya only taught her the ways of the Jedi.

Selenial

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Anyway, I'm done. If you think your opinions somehow override every other source, be my guest.

Agreed.
I no longer even find it funny trying to debate a game with someone who's never played it.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Nephthys
Just ignore him guys. He's rambling on about things he doesn't know about and trying to retcon things he doesn't like.
I am really getting tired of the bullshit that you people are throwing around as if you people understand everything and KoTOR II is infallible.

Do you understand what happened during ritual of Nathema? Do you?

Nephthys

No, I have no idea at all.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
You've obviously just ignored what I said, and while Drain Force and Drain Life are two separate powers, not even in the same tree like you just tried to imply, I was talking about the one used in cutscenes which is said to be different. I'm not confused about anything, Nathema became a wasteland because all the life there died. This made Natema a wound in the Force.

Anyway, I'm done. If you think your opinions somehow override every other source, be my guest.

Nihilus at the fullest extent of his power shown, not at the highest possible form, why would you even think that, would be a match for Vitiate. There's no reason for Drain not to work, and he still has godly TK, as well as dominating a duel while weakened with three combatants. Obviously Galaxy Vitiate is one a whole other level, but Vitiate as we see him is comparable with a powered Nihilus.
Damn, geniuses here.

KoTOR-CG revealed two powers:-

1. Dark Healing
2. Drain Force

Darth Nihilus and Darth Revan learned Drain Force. Darth Traya also, though not mentioned in KoTOR-CG.

Force Drain or Drain Force is a complex power which is used to consume life-force of living beings and possibly even sap the powers of the target. Darth Nihilus consumed life-forces of others to satiate his hunger.

Nathema didn't become a wound in the Force, it became a void in the Force. Emperor Vitiate consumed entire biota in this world and also stripped the planet from the Force itself with use of Force Drain or whatever you like to call. Special blah blah.

This is not my opinion, this is how the powers wielded by Darth Traya and Darth Nihilus have been described in sourcebooks.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Nephthys
No, I have no idea at all.
Yes, you do not.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Selenial
That Surik can't use Force drain, it's an innate talent of her wound which we've seen strike down all the Jedi Masters

and

Traya did teach the Exile dark techniques and tried to refrain her from just using the light, she wanted her Grey. So you're wrong by saying Traya only taught her the ways of the Jedi.
- I never claimed Surik used Force Drain. She never learned this ability, at-least officially. Also, Darth Traya killed the Jedi Masters, Meetra didn't.

- Ok! What dark side techniques she taught to Meetra Surik?

Selenial

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
- I never claimed Surik used Force Drain. She never learned this ability, at-least officially.

- Ok! What dark side techniques she taught to Meetra Surik?

Firstly, she never learned it no. You said she couldn't use it, and she could. As evidenced by the Dark Side kotor 2, which is indeed a good interpretation of what powers the characters would use if they wanted to. Surik wasn't darkside, so she refused to use the power.

Specific Dark Side powers? Few. She taught Surik how to force her way into each of the companions minds, against their will, which all of them considered Dark Side if Surik spoke to them of it. She taught Surik more Dark Side philosophies however, she was rarely a teacher of power, more philosophy.

She scolded Surik for being kind to a peasant on Nar Shadaa, saying the man hadn't shown the strength to deserve it, and gave proof when the man was killed for the credits Surik gave him.
She told Surik off for injuring herself in the name of saving companions. Scolded Surik for keeping Visas Marr alive, but was overjoyed when Surik said she wished to use Marr as a way to kill her enemies.

The list goes on and on.

Selenial

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Yes, you do not.

And he can admit it.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Selenial
Firstly, she never learned it no. You said she couldn't use it, and she could. As evidenced by the Dark Side kotor 2, which is indeed a good interpretation of what powers the characters would use if they wanted to. Surik wasn't darkside, so she refused to use the power.
So you are asserting that Surik learned Force Drain instinctively due to her condition?

Originally posted by Selenial
Specific Dark Side powers? Few. She taught Surik how to force her way into each of the companions minds, against their will, which all of them considered Dark Side if Surik spoke to them of it. She taught Surik more Dark Side philosophies however, she was rarely a teacher of power, more philosophy.

She scolded Surik for being kind to a peasant on Nar Shadaa, saying the man hadn't shown the strength to deserve it, and gave proof when the man was killed for the credits Surik gave him.
She told Surik off for injuring herself in the name of saving companions. Scolded Surik for keeping Visas Marr alive, but was overjoyed when Surik said she wished to use Marr as a way to kill her enemies.

The list goes on and on.
Interesting

Are these options forced on the character?

Selenial

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
So you are asserting that Surik learned Force Drain instinctively due to her condition?

Interesting

Are these options forced on the character?

All the scoldings, yes.
Not learning the Mind Reading etc though.

And yes, she did.

S_W_LeGenD

Originally posted by Selenial
All the scoldings, yes.
Not learning the Mind Reading etc though.

And yes, she did.
Hmm, you are motivating me to play this game. Darth Traya sounds like an interesting teacher.

Also, what do you think happened when Surik recovered from her condition? Did she loose command of Force Drain?

Selenial

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Hmm, you are motivating me to play this game.

Also, what do you think happened when Surik recovered from her condition? Did she loose command of Force Drain?

Personally, I believe not. Whilst her condition was what taught her it, I don't think it relies on it.
Traya says it's something you cannot be taught, only something you can witness.

If you want to play the game, make sure you install this:

http://www.moddb.com/mods/the-sith-lords-restored-content-mod-tslrcm

It adds like 200 hours of extra gameplay, you have the option to add in an extra planet too. It completes where the game was left off really, a lot of stuff was taken out of the game to rush it for Christmas (Thanks Lucas) and this restores all the old game files that were hidden by Obsidian (Hinted that they left them in to allow this) Either way, most of us consider TSLRCM Canon anyway.

Some people dont go for the new planet because it feels really clunky, I wouldnt as it's your first time.

Hint: Get your companions to either hate or love you, don't stay neutral. Do all the conversations you can or replay the game 900 times like I did, just try take as much in as possible, so much different stuff.