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The latest of all characters.

Who wins? No force choke.

Spidey solos.

What weapons do Selene get?

Also, you have to be more specific with the Sith. Without including Clone Wars into this, both of them are technically dead.

So do you mean ROTJ Vader before he died and became a force ghost? Or ROTS Vader after his fight with Obi Wan? And are we using Clone Wars Maul who was found by his brother, and later went on to duel Sidious? Or Maul before he got cut in half by Obi Wan?

Originally posted by Arachnid1
Spidey solos.

Nah. Selene is actually the more dangerous one here for the Sith.

Originally posted by ares834
Nah. Selene is actually the more dangerous one here for the Sith. I don't remember the Underworld movies well enough to retort this, so I'll take your word for it. I don't remember her dodging bullets or lightning though.

I do remember that she could take some ass kickings though. I also remember a pretty large degree of super strength (around Spideys level, catching/flipping cars and the likes). The only thing that really makes her more dangerous is her willingness to kill, I think.

Either way, if you right, she can solo just as hard as Spidey.

Neither Sith has lightning. But they do have TK which will allow them to easily defeat either foe. The thing is whereas Spider-man only has webs to use against either Sith, Selene has guns. In the few seconds it takes to ragdoll their two opponents, Selene could potentially have riddled them with bullets.

Edit: Didn't see no force choke (which presumably includes crush). Don't have any clue how it goes now.

It's highly unlikely the Jedi side will start with any powers. Out of the 6 movies, 90% of the time they fought it was primarily sabers. Based on that, Vader and Maul would definitely try to get up close.

Sith have no answer to bullets.

Other than precog, superhuman reflexes, etc

Or Vader's suit being durable enough to tank them

Bullets are far faster than Blaster Bolts. In the EU it's clear that slug throwers(guns) give even the best Force Users trouble because they can't see the slugs(bullets) and they're a whole lot faster.

And just because his glove(rumored to be Beskar) can stop a blaster bolt, doesn't mean they can stop a bullet. Which imparts massive kinetic damage as opposed to a blaster bolt which is mainly high heat in a concentrated area.

Why do people keep saying that? In the EU higher end Jedi can easily deflect bullets using the force as we see with Kenobi. Or course, the EU is irrelevant to these boards (even more so now that it is non-canon.)

Originally posted by KingD19
Bullets are far faster than Blaster Bolts.

Well if you pretend Hoth, Kasshyk and Geonosis didn't happen then sure

Because ya know, they totally did



They had trouble with slugthrowers because they can't be bounced back like blaster bolts

Also

>uses EU
>in the movie section



Energy is energy, joules are joules, durability is not split, heat/vaporisation is not hax blah blah blah

Originally posted by Arachnid1
I don't remember her dodging bullets or lightning though.
Evolution, when she saves a starving Michael from a bunch of small town hunters. And that was pre-CorvinusBlood-upgrade.

After getting her upgrade, she was able to go toe-to-toe with Marcus, who has hybrid level strength. Who is above both lycans, and even standard hybrids like Michael. Heck, even a starving lycan can push or flip off small trucks.

She is at the very least on Parker's level here, if not higher still.

@Stealthranger

Mundi was overwhelmed with slow blaster bolts. Even though he was surprised, he started deflecting them, but clearly couldn't handle that many bolts at once.

Selene's normal arsenal includes dual full auto pistols. Using an Uzi as a comparison, that is 20 bullets flying at the Sith in one second. Prove a Sith can block that many projectiles in a second, and at multiple different trajectories simultaneously. I hope you make your answer entertaining.

Bullet > Bolt on account of speed of projectile and rate of fire.

Run along home fan boy.

Originally posted by Epicurus
Evolution, when she saves a starving Michael from a bunch of small town hunters. And that was pre-CorvinusBlood-upgrade.

After getting her upgrade, she was able to go toe-to-toe with Marcus, who has hybrid level strength. Who is above both lycans, and even standard hybrids like Michael. Heck, even a starving lycan can push or flip off small trucks.

She is at the very least on Parker's level here, if not higher still.

Parker's strength feats are higher than anything Underworld has shown.

I'd put Underworld's elite at 5-10 tons. Super Lycan could be more.

Originally posted by Placidity
@Stealthranger

Mundi was overwhelmed with slow blaster bolts. Even though he was surprised, he started deflecting them, but clearly couldn't handle that many bolts at once.

Blaster bolts are not slow, Geonosis, Kasshyk and Hoth for example say otherwise (various blaster bolts crossing km in second

They were prolly using repeater blasters (basically automatic rifles of the SWverse), I think and were at fairly close distance

{QUOTE]Selene's normal arsenal includes dual full auto pistols. Using an Uzi as a comparison, that is 20 bullets flying at the Sith in one second. Prove a Sith can block that many projectiles in a second, and at multiple different trajectories simultaneously. I hope you make your answer entertaining.

Or he could just, you know, move out of the way of the lines of fire. Force Speed and all that

If I wanted to I could post ROTS novel quotes of MagnaGaurds and droid starfighters relativistic reactions and Jedi outmaneuvering them easily enough or ICS saying blaster bolts are lightspeed

Vader's durable enough to tank bullets in any case



Again, basically every long range engagement in the trilogies says otherwise

As for rate of fire, can't recall any blaster stats so, meh, might give that one for now

Originally posted by Placidity
Parker's strength feats are higher than anything Underworld has shown.

I'd put Underworld's elite at 5-10 tons. Super Lycan could be more.
Selene shoulder-charged a van, flinging it roughly 10 meters away. Marcus brought a helicopter hovering 100+ feet in the air simply by tugging on a rope attached to it. Michael stopped a truck in its tracks.

Does Parker have feats on par with these?

He caught a falling police cruiser(1-4 tons) without any effort.

He also stopped a city bus(12+tons) being pushed by an 18 wheeler(20,000lbs) without much effort at all. When the bus slammed into him, he only moved a few feet before digging up the concrete and stopping both vehicles, despite the truck still being in drive and Rhino flooring the gas pedal.

Marcus' most impressive feat imo was lifting the portcullis as it was several feet thick, at least 10-12 feet high and made of solid stone. It had to weigh in the double digits of tons and he lifted it pretty easily.

Originally posted by StealthRanger
Blaster bolts are not slow, Geonosis, Kasshyk and Hoth for example say otherwise (various blaster bolts crossing km in second


Not the ones that Jedi are shown to block. You can say its the same weapon, but bolt speed is measurably different - onscreen.

I'm basing this on movie feats only.

Force speed depends on how you play it. They have never shown using it in a fight. Well actually, they never used it period after that one time in TPM. Sure would've been handy to use that ability later - why didn't they use it?

You could argue they move around with quicksilver speed in a fight, but I'm not sure there is anyone here interested in debating that.

Originally posted by Epicurus
Selene shoulder-charged a van, flinging it roughly 10 meters away. Marcus brought a helicopter hovering 100+ feet in the air simply by tugging on a rope attached to it. Michael stopped a truck in its tracks.


Well rolling over a few times and skidding is more accurate. But nonetheless doesn't take away from the feat, still impressive.

I once made your helicopter argument, it was countered by DDM, who had some good points. Basically he said it actually doesn't take that much force to pull it down if its just hovering. I didn't completely buy it but I generally exclude that feat from my estimations for now.

Originally posted by Placidity
Not the ones that Jedi are shown to block. You can say its the same weapon, but bolt speed is measurably different - onscreen.

"it looked slow on TV so it must be slow"

Well if you want to go with peak human Agent Smith and Neo because we don't see super flashy camera effects during their fights despite consistently bullet timing, or say Bleach is the fastest fictional verse ever because you can't see them or any backgrounds on panel when they're fighting then, sure. We'll do that

Long distance speed feats determine the speed of a character/projectile basically



Me too



So Sidious vs Palpatine in the novelisation of ROTS don't count then?

Also the "hurr durr can't do it in combat" excuse kinda died out as a copout excuse years ago

Or should have at least. Apparently not

Again, long distance feats determine speed of characters

Originally posted by StealthRanger
"it looked slow on TV so it must be slow"


Exactly. I base it on what I observe. I'm sure you have other methods, like base it on your feelings, or on what you'd like to believe.

Originally posted by StealthRanger

Long distance speed feats determine the speed of a character/projectile basically


Again, long distance feats determine speed of characters

You make a lot of assertions. They don't mean anything. You need to realize this when you debate other people.


Originally posted by StealthRanger

Also the "hurr durr can't do it in combat" excuse kinda died out as a copout excuse years ago


I don't know about that. But I do know SW fanboy idiocy lives on.

Originally posted by Placidity
Well rolling over a few times and skidding is more accurate. But nonetheless doesn't take away from the feat, still impressive.

Which is still flipping and throwing it away.
Originally posted by Placidity

I once made your helicopter argument, it was countered by DDM, who had some good points. Basically he said it actually doesn't take that much force to pull it down if its just hovering. I didn't completely buy it but I generally exclude that feat from my estimations for now.
I don't care what bogus reasoning ddm used to "convince" you that the helicopter feat wasn't impressive. He has claimed that Twilight vampires can exert million tonne-force simply based on one pushing down a f*cking tree.

Michael, while jumping down and holding the same rope Marcus pulled, didn't budge the copter. Or even come close to doing that. Yet Marcus just tugged on it once and brought it crashing down.

Marcus also lifted the large stone door when he was locked out from William's crypt's chambers.

Originally posted by Epicurus


I don't care

Cool story.

Originally posted by Epicurus


He has claimed that Twilight vampires can exert million tonne-force simply based on one pushing down a f*cking tree.


All that means is that he can be wrong. That is true of everyone.

Originally posted by Epicurus

Marcus also lifted the large stone door when he was locked out from William's crypt's chambers.

Yes King has mentioned this. I agree its Marcus' best and high end feat. At least 10 tons in my opinion.

Originally posted by Placidity
Exactly. I base it on what I observe. I'm sure you have other methods, like base it on your feelings, or on what you'd like to believe.

Cool. Because I loved peak human level Matrix characters too

Because lets ignore bolts travelling many km in seconds over being able to see it on screen :distracted



Not sure about house standards here, though it's practically how debates work. Stops people from nitpicking low end feats (or what could be percieved as such) out of the blue

Again, textbook definition of this where Matrix agents appear peak human in fights despite bullet timing feats

Or subsonic MGS railguns because we saw it take a few seconds to cross hundreds of meters

To take this logic in DBZ, Goku vs Cell appeared faster than Gohan vs Buutenks, yet none of us would claim Cell and CS Goku are faster than Buutenks and BS Gohan because by feats, powerscaling and statements they're clearly superior

That and Buu Saga characters are far more powerful than Cell Saga characters, ofc



Funny that, the SW downplayer tends to live far longer

>SW vs x char from x franchise debate
>SW character (and others on a similar level inverse) has feats on x level several times throughout the series
>if it didn't happen that way in every fight it doesn't count in vs debates

>any other character (and characters throughout his/her franchise) has a feat of x level same amount of times throughout their respective series as would be in SW
>it's perfectly acceptable and usable in any vs debate even though it didn't happen every time in their series

Seems to be the usual course of SW debates when it isn't an EU debate know what I'm sayin' yo?

Originally posted by Placidity
Cool story.



All that means is that he can be wrong. That is true of everyone.



Yes King has mentioned this. I agree its Marcus' best and high end feat. At least 10 tons in my opinion.
IOW, you agree that Selene(who is = Marcus) is at the very least every bit as strong as Spider-Man.

Got it.

Originally posted by Epicurus
IOW, you agree that Selene(who is = Marcus) is at the very least every bit as strong as Spider-Man.

Got it.

Actually I said Spider-man is stronger. But I remember who you are now, and everything makes sense.

Originally posted by StealthRanger

Not sure about house standards here, though it's practically how debates work. Stops people from nitpicking low end feats (or what could be percieved as such) out of the blue


Do you even know what low end feats mean? Six movies, many dozens of fights. One short non-combat superspeed scene. So that one moment is the standard, and everything else is "low end". Thats nice. It's like you intentionally take everything that is logical and assert the opposite.

Originally posted by StealthRanger

To take this logic in DBZ, Goku vs Cell appeared faster than Gohan vs Buutenks, yet none of us would claim Cell and CS Goku are faster than Buutenks and BS Gohan because by feats, powerscaling and statements they're clearly superior

That and Buu Saga characters are far more powerful than Cell Saga characters, ofc


Well Gohan and Buu are capable of being faster, but they did not display/use it (for the most part).

The only reason we know they are faster is because of the other factors that you mentioned.

The Sith have no such other factors to rely on - unless you go into EU.

Originally posted by StealthRanger


>if it didn't happen that way in every fight it doesn't count in vs debates

>any other character (and characters throughout his/her franchise) has a feat of x level same amount of times throughout their respective series as would be in SW
>it's perfectly acceptable and usable in any vs debate even though it didn't happen every time in their series

Seems to be the usual course of SW debates when it isn't an EU debate know what I'm sayin' yo?

When has a Jedi/Sith EVER (even once) displayed superspeed in a fight?

If what you said is true, why are you complaining about others using the same dodgy tactics that you are trying to pull here? That makes you a hypocrite. You can't have it both ways. Your only defense is "well other people are doing it too!".

I am quite consistent with my standards. For example, a post I made today discounting that Wade Wilson (Note - a Marvel character) has superspeed:

Originally posted by Placidity
That moment although significant is all that you have to hang on to make a case for superspeed. Every other scene in the movie, he does not display any super speed at all.

Also he was clearly blocking bullets even without superspeed before that moment. Therefore, real world physics does not necessarily apply to that one slow motion scene either.

If you pause the video at the right places in the earlier part of that scene when he WASN'T filmed in slow motion, you can still see the bullets he is deflecting. The movie bullet is clearly slower than a real bullet.

Basically, a case can be made for superspeed, but it takes some inclination and self-convincing.

Originally posted by Placidity
Do you even know what low end feats mean? Six movies, many dozens of fights. One short non-combat superspeed scene. So that one moment is the standard, and everything else is "low end". Thats nice. It's like you intentionally take everything that is logical and assert the opposite.

Why yes I know what they mean

High end showing are definitive of a character's ability in vs debates

By low end I mean, we have various instances of blaster bolts travelling many km in second, yet for some reason you nitpick "but we saw tem move on TV wen Jedi got shot", but at least you haven't tried the "we see slow blaster bolts far more often then we do fast ones", yet

Technically it's cherry picking feats either way. One is just more frowned upon

Hint: It's not my way of doing it, mate



Good job at missing the point

Stylistic protrayal is not<by feats/logical powerscaling

Gohan vs Buu being a good example. Just because they're fight didn't appear faster, didn't mean they were moving slower



Well, Obi-Wan keeping up with Grievous' attacks (should I bring out relativistic reactions starfighter and MagnaGuard droids now?) or Windu vs Palpatine where they were performing DBZ/Wesker esque-shit against Anakin (moving and fighting so fast he can't see them both) (both novelisation feats, probably others I'm missing out on, and here's me awaiting the "waaah if they're x level why doesn't the setting go the way I think it should!" gem)

Regardless, we don't disregard Matrix characters fights because they didn't look fast, so why the same for Star Wars?



Not complaining, just pointing out house standards for such things (if those are KMC ones idk, after all, some people try to pull the combat speed fallacy on MoS Superman) and that if you want to nitpick every tiny showing we'd get shit like city block level Thor and small mountain level DBZ characters

Or you're just a downplayer in any case



Okay, so you're a downplayer in general then? (bullets in the movie not moving as fast as real ones :lmao)

Good to know

Originally posted by Placidity
Actually I said Spider-man is stronger. But I remember who you are now, and everything makes sense.
So you're dismissing Selene and the other hybrids' feats from the movies now. That's flip-flopping.

Originally posted by Placidity
Sith have no answer to bullets.

LOL.

Selene and spidey win

Based on?

Originally posted by The Manga Guru
Selene and spidey win Lol no.

Originally posted by StealthRanger
Based on? being faster and stronger. Selene has faster weapons.

All I know is... I can see blaster bolts on screen whereas I can't see bullets fired on screen (unless they're slow motion).

Anyway, Selene's super speed and Spider sense counteract the Sith's precog, force choke can work but I have yet to see it used on anyone as durable as Selene and I haven't seen it used on a dodging, moving opponent like I assume Spiderman would be.

Selene/Spiderman for the win.

Lol no. Selene gets force lifted off the ground and decapped. Spidey gets Force lifted off the ground and decapped.


Sith rape.

Originally posted by RJ 2.0
Lol no. Selene gets force lifted off the ground and decapped. Spidey gets Force lifted off the ground and decapped.


Sith rape. Spidey alone is faster than them by a mile. He attaches a web to their head and pulls it off in an instant.

Spidelene rape.

Originally posted by The Manga Guru
being faster and stronger. Selene has faster weapons.

Why are they faster?

Please don't do that "blaster bolts are slow because we can see them move" thing /eyeroll

Originally posted by Arachnid1
Spidey alone is faster than them by a mile. He attaches a web to their head and pulls it off in an instant.

Spidelene rape.

Lol, no. Precog, dude.

Hmmm, I thought the reason Blaster Bolts were visible to the naked eye was because they give off self generating light... Similar as to why tracer rounds are visible, while ordinary bullets are not...

Being able to see blaster bolts certainly does not mean they are slower than bullets...

Remember, Star Wars is one of the few verses where lowballing is acceptable, along with the "if it didn't happen in every instance it doesn't count" way of thinking

I can't understand these really bad logically fallacious concepts... It hurts my brain every time.

Originally posted by StealthRanger
Why are they faster?

Please don't do that "blaster bolts are slow because we can see them move" thing /eyeroll spidey can dodge lightning and and bullets with ease. I'm pretty sure Selene has been able to dodge bullets.

Originally posted by RJ 2.0
Lol, no. Precog, dude. Pre cog is honestly over rated. If they can predict the future why is it that so many Jedi die?

Originally posted by RJ 2.0
Lol, no. Precog, dude.
Originally posted by The Manga Guru
Pre cog is honestly over rated. If they can predict the future why is it that so many Jedi die? This. Plus, precog doesn't matter when you are so hopelessly outclassed in speed.

Even if it did, Spidey has his own precog to counteract. Precog that has proven to be much more useful in keeping him alive as opposed to the Jedi's precog.

Originally posted by The Manga Guru
spidey can dodge lightning and and bullets with ease. I'm pretty sure Selene has been able to dodge bullets.

When did he dodge lightning? Jedi block blaster bolts, which cross several kilometers in seconds

Originally posted by The Manga Guru
Pre cog is honestly over rated. If they can predict the future why is it that so many Jedi die?

Considering that Obiwan had trouble with Jango Fett, it shows that precog is not really all that.

Originally posted by StealthRanger
When did he dodge lightning? Jedi block blaster bolts, which cross several kilometers in seconds

Electro.

Link?

Originally posted by The Manga Guru
Electro.

Link?

Lazy so, I'll just throw up the whole thread

http://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/sw-blaster-bolt-speed.108677/

Also:

http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/4231/blasterplain1fc5.jpg

http://img92.imageshack.us/img92/6849/blasterplain6bc8.jpg

http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/241/blasterplain3zo0.jpg

Then there's Hoth and Kasshyk as well

Originally posted by Arachnid1
Spidey alone is faster than them by a mile. He attaches a web to their head and pulls it off in an instant.

Spidelene rape. Precog, dude.