Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Telepathic battle only. Who wins? Preboot characters of course.

this was done before and it was never really decided. problem is, cool and awesome as black was, he simply didn't have the huge number of feats to compare to jonzz. that also meant he was missing some of jonzz poorer showings as well.

has mm ever done anything like controls hundreds of villains simultaneously? driven bizarro and silver banshee sane? well, he did make joker sane for a time, and the megaddon showing was cool as hell. he's linked all minds on earth and even communicated across dimensions let alone interstellar distances.

black however was able to keep jonzz out of luthor's mind. does that mean he's stronger? could mm have found luthor's secret if he really pushed? i dunno.

imo, they are really close, but an edge to mm just because he has so many feats. if you want to factor in the low feats maybe a slight edge to black. if you equate fernus with mm a much bigger majority to mm....

whew....tough call. lol

Manchester swapped Superman and Bizarro's minds and stopped J'onn from learning who did it. J'onn even conceded that whoever stopped him from probing Lex was a superior telepath.

And J'onn couldn't even read Bizarro's mind let alone make him sane.

Why make the thread?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Why make the thread?
To get other people's opinion?

So that you can mercilessly beat them down and show them how wrong you think they are?

I mean, you've obviously seen every appearance of both, and more importantly, made your mind up about what they represent. IOW, no one is going to change your opinion.

But you seem most interested in changing others'.

Why is it so important? Is it so you can pump up another of Superman's foes, whilst putting down one of his colleagues?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So that you can mercilessly beat them down and show them how wrong you think they are? Of course. You caught me, good sir.



Please. I created a thread. Anyway, the scans in question.

http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/16859116_Superman_v2_181_-_12.jpg

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16859118/Superman_v2_183_-_13.jpg.html

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16859083/ActionComics796p05.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/16859084/ActionComics796p06.jpg.html

Originally posted by abhilegend
Telepathic battle only. Who wins? Preboot characters of course.

Out of curiosity, has Black even appeared Post-FLASHPOINT?

Originally posted by leonidas
this was done before and it was never really decided. problem is, cool and awesome as black was, he simply didn't have the huge number of feats to compare to jonzz. that also meant he was missing some of jonzz poorer showings as well.

has mm ever done anything like controls hundreds of villains simultaneously? driven bizarro and silver banshee sane? well, he did make joker sane for a time, and the megaddon showing was cool as hell. he's linked all minds on earth and even communicated across dimensions let alone interstellar distances.

black however was able to keep jonzz out of luthor's mind. does that mean he's stronger? could mm have found luthor's secret if he really pushed? i dunno.

imo, they are really close, but an edge to mm just because he has so many feats. if you want to factor in the low feats maybe a slight edge to black. if you equate fernus with mm a much bigger majority to mm....

whew....tough call. lol

Black was basically outright stated to be an equal or more powerful telepath than J'Onn, and achieved a few comparative feats that J'Onn was unable to do(although not under the same writers). I think you could argue J'Onn having an advantage in experience/skill in actual telepathic combat.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So that you can mercilessly beat them down and show them how wrong you think they are?

I mean, you've obviously seen every appearance of both, and more importantly, made your mind up about what they represent. IOW, no one is going to change your opinion.

But you seem most interested in changing others'.

Why is it so important? Is it so you can pump up another of Superman's foes, whilst putting down one of his colleagues?

Maybe he's doing it for the fun of the debate?

No one has fun in an Abhi debate

Originally posted by abhilegend
Manchester swapped Superman and Bizarro's minds and stopped J'onn from learning who did it. J'onn even conceded that whoever stopped him from probing Lex was a superior telepath.

And J'onn couldn't even read Bizarro's mind let alone make him sane.

where did black swap supes and bizarro's minds? and where was it that mm conceded that whoever blocked him from probing lex was superior? don't think i've seen either scan and i was pretty sure i'd read all of black's appearances.

regardless, mm has interstellar feats and has linked all minds globally effortlessly. he made joker sane--briefly, which is more impressive to me than the bizarro feat. black MAY be the better tp but it's a difficult thing to prove because mm has so many good feats.

Originally posted by Delta1938

Black was basically outright stated to be an equal or more powerful telepath than J'Onn, and achieved a few comparative feats that J'Onn was unable to do(although not under the same writers). I think you could argue J'Onn having an advantage in experience/skill in actual telepathic combat.


which is basically what i said.....though as i asked abhi--where did mm concede black could be more powerful? bottom line is they are very close and it may well depend on whether you factor in mm's low feats which in this case isn't entirely fair because black had too few appearances to really have low feats, though i guess his sister was ultimately able to defeat him in jl elite but she had help from manitou raven. that whole arc was weird...

Originally posted by leonidas
he made joker sane--briefly, which is more impressive to me than the bizarro feat.

which is basically what i said.....though as i asked abhi--where did mm concede black could be more powerful? bottom line is they are very close and it may well depend on whether you factor in mm's low feats which in this case isn't entirely fair because black had too few appearances to really have low feats, though i guess his sister was ultimately able to defeat him in jl elite but she had help from manitou raven. that whole arc was weird...

To be honest, I'd put making Bizarro intelligent for longer term as more impressive than J'Onn straining to temporarily make Joker sane. Black also was able to reprogram Doomsday's mind to see Imperiex Probes as Superman, where J'Onn has failed to do much of anything against Doomsday, telepathically, on at least two occasions.

And you said nothing about J'Onn's experience/skill in telepathic battle. Anyways the scans Abhi posted are of the scene. Superman stated as being the reason J'Onn found Luthor was telling the truth. J'Onn stated "perhaps," but you have to take into account J'Onn can't make assumptions here. Black has done things J'Onn has failed as I pointed-out

And I'm not sure what happened with Black and his sister in JL ELITE. You're right, it was weird. I'd have to check again, but he might not have actually been involved at all, it might have been simply Vera Black was crazy. I wasn't even sure what happened when I read it, let alone now.

Not to mention, the effortless control of Prometheus for years.

And whilst weakened, drugged, and dying, still managed to mind control Grodd (amongst others) and send a global telepathic call.

MM

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So that you can mercilessly beat them down and show them how wrong you think they are?

I mean, you've obviously seen every appearance of both, and more importantly, made your mind up about what they represent. IOW, no one is going to change your opinion.

But you seem most interested in changing others'.

Why is it so important? Is it so you can pump up another of Superman's foes, whilst putting down one of his colleagues?

This. It's obvious why ABHI made this thread.

Originally posted by catver9
This. It's obvious why ABHI made this thread.

Or, he just wanted to debate. But hey, Kitty-Cat is usually wrong.

Originally posted by Delta1938
Or, he just wanted to debate. But hey, Kitty-Cat is usually wrong.

Kitty Cat? Why would he make a thread when it has already been stated on panel that Manchester is stronger? Anything else brought up about MM is thrown out of the Window because it has already been confirmed who is the most powerful telepath. I know he is your Superman buddy and you're taking up for him, but, sometimes you need to open those eyes of yours. Since this topic is derailing the already decided thread, I'm not engaging this any further.

Originally posted by carver9
Kitty Cat? Why would he make a thread when it has already been stated on panel that Manchester is stronger? Anything else brought up about MM is thrown out of the Window because it has already been confirmed who is the most powerful telepath. I know he is your Superman buddy and you're taking up for him, but, sometimes you need to open those eyes of yours. Since this topic is derailing the already decided thread, I'm not engaging this any further.

Some people want to, ya know, have a debate. But I have a question. Do you still think I'm wrong that Wonder Woman's creator invented the polygraph?

Originally posted by Delta1938
To be honest, I'd put making Bizarro intelligent for longer term as more impressive than J'Onn straining to temporarily make Joker sane. Black also was able to reprogram Doomsday's mind to see Imperiex Probes as Superman, where J'Onn has failed to do much of anything against Doomsday, telepathically, on at least two occasions.

And you said nothing about J'Onn's experience/skill in telepathic battle. Anyways the scans Abhi posted are of the scene. Superman stated as being the reason J'Onn found Luthor was telling the truth. J'Onn stated "perhaps," but you have to take into account J'Onn can't make assumptions here. Black has done things J'Onn has failed as I pointed-out

And I'm not sure what happened with Black and his sister in JL ELITE. You're right, it was weird. I'd have to check again, but he might not have actually been involved at all, it might have been simply Vera Black was crazy. I wasn't even sure what happened when I read it, let alone now.

lol i didn't even see abhi's post when i scrolled down. i went to the end, saw yours and didn't see his scans. cool, you were right.

in the elite, we find out black didn't actually kill himself but he needed a host body. the whole thing was weird, especially with the worlogog....

anyway, both have done things the other has not. for instance, i dount black could communicate across dimensions like mm could. i brought up the doomsday tweak in a different thread but yeah, that was a good one. in strict tp battle, i might change my mind and give black a slight edge, but mm is so old and has so much experience..... meh, screw it, i'll settle on a split i think.

Originally posted by leonidas
lol i didn't even see abhi's post when i scrolled down. i went to the end, saw yours and didn't see his scans. cool, you were right.

in the elite, we find out black didn't actually kill himself but he needed a host body. the whole thing was weird, especially with the worlogog....

anyway, both have done things the other has not. for instance, i dount black could communicate across dimensions like mm could. i brought up the doomsday tweak in a different thread but yeah, that was a good one. in strict tp battle, i might change my mind and give black a slight edge, but mm is so old and has so much experience..... meh, screw it, i'll settle on a split i think.

hahah Missing posts happens.

I read JLE, but I could've sworn that they said Vera wasn't possessed by her brother, she was just crazy and thought that. It was odd. I actually don't even think I noticed the Worlogog being in there and only knew about it in the story when I saw Abhi mention it in a post he made in the Superman respect thread.

The thing is, we KNOW Manchester Black has done things J'Onn wasn't able to. I'm not trying to go the No Limits Fallacy, but I think it's not a good argument to bring-up J'Onn doing things Manchester hasn't and assuming he couldn't. I think a better argument would be bringing-up J'Onn's greater experience in telepathic battle, like against his brother Malefic in that storyline looking into Mars' past when Apokolips invaded because of Malefic.

And split? What a cop-out!!! huhu

Originally posted by abhilegend
Manchester swapped Superman and Bizarro's minds and stopped J'onn from learning who did it. J'onn even conceded that whoever stopped him from probing Lex was a superior telepath.

And J'onn couldn't even read Bizarro's mind let alone make him sane.
I was waiting till you made your choice so as not to incite the almost certain fight that usually results.
I happen to agree with MB over MM. J'onn could beat him overall of course, but Black has it with the stips.

MM moves and thinks faster. He mind rapes Manchester before he realize the battle has started.

Originally posted by catver9
MM moves and thinks faster. He mind rapes Manchester before he realize the battle has started.

A then you now concede that Superman, Supergirl, Martian Manhunter, Wonder Woman, Flash and many others own Hulk before one synapse is activated.

Originally posted by Delta1938
A then you now concede that Superman, Supergirl, Martian Manhunter, Wonder Woman, Flash and many others own Hulk before one synapse is activated.

Hulk isn't in this thread. As for the thread that we are currently debating in that involves MM and Manchester, Manchester loses a high majority via blitz.

Originally posted by catver9
Hulk isn't in this thread. As for the thread that we are currently debating in that involves MM and Manchester, Manchester loses a high majority via blitz.

Not surprising that the point went over Kitty-Cat's head. Show Martian Manhunter doing a super speed telepathic attack. By the way, care to answer this question?

Originally posted by Delta1938
Some people want to, ya know, have a debate. But I have a question. Do you still think I'm wrong that Wonder Woman's creator invented the polygraph?

lol all he has to do is prove one tp can think faster than another....shouldn't be difficult....

Originally posted by Delta1938
Not surprising that the point went over Kitty-Cat's head. Show Martian Manhunter doing a super speed telepathic attack. By the way, care to answer this question?

So you want me to show MM using super speed because honestly, that's all I really need to show.

Originally posted by leonidas
lol all he has to do is prove one tp can think faster than another....shouldn't be difficult....

I believe J'emm should have the same, but it didn't protect him from the future Titans(the telepaths that WOULD inhabit Titan and make it their home, not the Teen Titans or Titans Of Myth).

Originally posted by catver9
So you want me to show MM using super speed because honestly, that's all I really need to show.

Originally posted by Delta1938
I believe J'emm should have the same, but it didn't protect him from the future Titans(the telepaths that WOULD inhabit Titan and make it their home, not the Teen Titans or Titans Of Myth).

And I see Kitty-Cat is afraid of answering my question.

In before the impending lock:

MM isnt known for super speed mental attacks, mostly because there us no such thing. Speed of thought is a concept, not a point A to B distance measurement.

Originally posted by riv6672
In before the impending lock:

MM isnt known for super speed mental attacks, mostly because there us no such thing. Speed of thought is a concept, not a point A to B distance measurement.

I would guess he's arguing that J'Onn will be thinking at super speed and telepathically attack before Manchester can react, not the speed telepathy moves itself. Although, knowing Catver being carter, he could be arguing that as well. Or he could be arguing aliens didn't take him last night and probe him when they really did, and he can barely come out of the corner from crying to post.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/123873/2871838-2634400-1.png

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/123873/2871838-2634400-1.png

That's J'Onn moving at super speed, not telepathically attacking at super speed.

No, but it shows he has the ability to react faster tthanthe speed of tthought.

So in a QuickDraw contest, MM should be able to get a tp attack off faster.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
No, but it shows he has the ability to react faster tthanthe speed of tthought.

So in a QuickDraw contest, MM should be able to get a tp attack off faster.

Originally posted by Delta1938
I believe J'emm should have the same, but it didn't protect him from the future Titans(the telepaths that WOULD inhabit Titan and make it their home, not the Teen Titans or Titans Of Myth).

The Saturnians(or however you'd spell it) race was created by cloning Martians. So I'd assume they also have super speed. J'emm didn't seem to have any confidence against a single telepath from the race that would become the Titans of LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES fame.

Those dirty Saturnians are nothing to me.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I don't have a counter to that

Concessions accepted.

There is no such thing as the SPEED of thought. You think, then do. I researched and covered this once when i first got here and got no counter argument, as my reasoning was sound.
You can just as correctly say Punisher shoots people in the face at the speed of thought. He does it all the time.

This comes down to skill, power and ability, all of which the two are fairly even in, with MB taking the slight edge due to this type battle being his forte.

Super speed for the win.

Open minded to the end.

Originally posted by riv6672
There is no such thing as the SPEED of thought. You think, then do. I researched and covered this once when i first got here and got no counter argument, as my reasoning was sound.
You can just as correctly say Punisher shoots people in the face at the speed of thought. He does it all the time.

This comes down to skill, power and ability, all of which the two are fairly even in, with MB taking the slight edge due to this type battle being his forte.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f77/t461496.html



I believe the term "speed of thought" refers to the speed electrical impulses travel through the brain. Which will be slower than air since it's mostly solid matter. A number of characters with super speed have faster brain processing and perceptions. DarkSaint posted such a picture.

Now whether a telepath with super speed would have his telepathic attack travel faster is a different thing, but the argument is J'Onn's greater mental speed would mean he'd attack before Manchester could, like let's say Flash and Jonah Hex have a shoot-out. Well Flash(let's pretend he decides to kill), unless he's an idiot for some reason, or some other circumstances beyond his control, would win since he could fire his gun before Hex can draw, even if both their guns fire bullets at the same speed.

But the problem is I cited an example of a Saturnian, and they're really just Martian clones so most likely would have super speed, didn't seem to have any advantage here over normal speed telepaths.

Originally posted by catver9
Super speed for the win.

Look above. Also--

Originally posted by Delta1938
Some people want to, ya know, have a debate. But I have a question. Do you still think I'm wrong that Wonder Woman's creator invented the polygraph?

I stand by my statements, and yes WW's creator did pioneer the lie detector.

Originally posted by riv6672
I stand by my statements, and yes WW's creator did pioneer the lie detector.

Isn't it funny we're simultaneously arguing and agreeing about the same thing?

And on Xbox LIVE carter claimed I was wrong. I think Kitty-Cat realized he's the one that's wrong and doesn't want to make a fool of himself publicly.....AGAIN.

All he needs do is Google "creator of the lie detector" if he doesnt believe you.
Moultin's name comes up, and one or two sites down he's attached to WW's creation...

Originally posted by riv6672
All he needs do is Google "creator of the lie detector" if he doesnt believe you.
Moultin's name comes up, and one or two sites down he's attached to WW's crwation...

Oh, I already have one link of many I could post to show him I'm right. He never even gave a good reason why he says I'm wrong. But of course he was dodging it here because he knew I would prove him wrong. Just like he's avoiding my point about J'emm and the proto-Titans.

MM wins.

Originally posted by leonidas
where did black swap supes and bizarro's minds? and where was it that mm conceded that whoever blocked him from probing lex was superior? don't think i've seen either scan and i was pretty sure i'd read all of black's appearances.

regardless, mm has interstellar feats and has linked all minds globally effortlessly. he made joker sane--briefly, which is more impressive to me than the bizarro feat. black MAY be the better tp but it's a difficult thing to prove because mm has so many good feats.



which is basically what i said.....though as i asked abhi--where did mm concede black could be more powerful? bottom line is they are very close and it may well depend on whether you factor in mm's low feats which in this case isn't entirely fair because black had too few appearances to really have low feats, though i guess his sister was ultimately able to defeat him in jl elite but she had help from manitou raven. that whole arc was weird...
Batman has compared Joker and Bizarro. Look what he says.

http://i.imgur.com/l0zOsGz.jpg

And here is J'onn failing to read Bizarro's mind.

http://i.imgur.com/OurkVPz.jpg

So yeah, he is superior telepath IMO.

hmm, not sure i buy that as anything more than a simple off-hand comment. bizarro's brain works differently, but i don't see how anyone can say bizarro is more 'insane' than the joker.....his mind follows rules like a normal person's does, it just follows different rules. joker? no rules at all. i recall a scene where mm almost lost himself in the joker once as well....

it's certainly possible black>mm in the tp department though. in fact, after reading all this i'd tend to agree he is better, though i still say the margin in slight.

re: the speed of tp? no speedster has ever used speed to get off a tp assault before someone (another tp) could react to it in the history of comics to my knowledge. speed of thought is all over the place in comics and at times can be instantaneous and much faster than the speed of light. flash has flat out out run thought so he's a different beast altogether. i'm not even saying it doesn't make some logical sense. i'm just saying that it has never happened before and therefore it should be considered impossible and not a viable option in this match.

Yeah, THAT is a stretch.

Not everything that a character says or thinks is canon.

Originally posted by riv6672
Yeah, THAT is a stretch.

Not everything that a character says or thinks is canon.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/ignore_jpg_scale_small/11115/111153050/3852290-00000000000000supes.png

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/ignore_jpg_scale_small/11115/111153050/3852290-00000000000000supes.png

He's clearly trying to give Manjobber a confidence boost. huhu

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/ignore_jpg_scale_small/11115/111153050/3852290-00000000000000supes.png

that's a classic pic....if this were all powers in, i'd give it to mm. just tp though....? i don't believe you have actually weighed in with who you thinks wins the tp battle, have you.....? hmmm..........?

Ha, true, I haven't.

I favour the speed argument.

Technique -wise, it's always hard to judge, but I give it to MM on skill.

Sheer power, though?

I think this is a split between the two, if speed isn't allowed.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/ignore_jpg_scale_small/11115/111153050/3852290-00000000000000supes.png



He did that twice, I think?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/ignore_jpg_scale_small/11115/111153050/3852290-00000000000000supes.png
He has said that for Hal Jordan, Redemption, Kyle Rayner etc, etc. He's really humble like that. Otherwise?

http://i.imgur.com/JpRO4Lm.jpg

Originally posted by leonidas
hmm, not sure i buy that as anything more than a simple off-hand comment. bizarro's brain works differently, but i don't see how anyone can say bizarro is more 'insane' than the joker.....his mind follows rules like a normal person's does, it just follows different rules. joker? no rules at all. i recall a scene where mm almost lost himself in the joker once as well....

it's certainly possible black>mm in the tp department though. in fact, after reading all this i'd tend to agree he is better, though i still say the margin in slight.

re: the speed of tp? no speedster has ever used speed to get off a tp assault before someone (another tp) could react to it in the history of comics to my knowledge. speed of thought is all over the place in comics and at times can be instantaneous and much faster than the speed of light. flash has flat out out run thought so he's a different beast altogether. i'm not even saying it doesn't make some logical sense. i'm just saying that it has never happened before and therefore it should be considered impossible and not a viable option in this match.
I don't think so. J'onn has read Joker's mind and he couldn't even read Bizarro's mind. Making bizarro sane>>>>>>>>>>>not even being able to read his mind, don't you think?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Ha, true, I haven't.

I favour the speed argument.

Technique -wise, it's always hard to judge, but I give it to MM on skill.

Sheer power, though?

I think this is a split between the two, if speed isn't allowed.
How is J'onn more skilled? And FYI, that was Flash giving them all speed, J'onn isn't that fast on his own.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/ignore_jpg_scale_small/11115/111153050/3852290-00000000000000supes.png Clearly Superman is assuming MM has a capable brain in such an instance. Not the kind of brain that says "I can go intangible, but watch me get trapped in force fields".

You'd probably need to get Batman/Superman into MM's body for that statement to mean anything.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/ignore_jpg_scale_small/11115/111153050/3852290-00000000000000supes.png
Like i said...doesnt make it canon.

As to the actual fight, it seems pretty evenly divided here. I like this isnt considered a stomp either way.

Originally posted by abhilegend
How is J'onn more skilled? And FYI, that was Flash giving them all speed, J'onn isn't that fast on his own.

I only recall him doing it to Hippolyta; have you got scans of him boosting the others?

MM should be the most powerful. Shapeshifting, intangibility, one of the greatest Psionics, almost as strong as Superman, Superspeed, FV. But he is not as popular.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I only recall him doing it to Hippolyta; have you got scans of him boosting the others?

Originally posted by abhilegend
I don't think so. J'onn has read Joker's mind and he couldn't even read Bizarro's mind. Making bizarro sane>>>>>>>>>>>not even being able to read his mind, don't you think?

lol when you say it like that. i was trying to find the book with mm and joker to review the scene but couldn't find it. any idea where it took place again?

bizarro has physiological differences as well. he's literally different physically. joker? joker is ALL darkness. i think equating the 2 is actually apples and oranges. i'd love to have seen black try taking on the joker's mind. i have no problem thinking he would not be able to do so. credit to you and delta for convincing me black could take this in tp, but like i said earlier i still think it's pretty damn close...

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/ignore_jpg_scale_small/11115/111153050/3852290-00000000000000supes.png

Superman is such a nice guy always thinking so high of others

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
MM should be the most powerful. Shapeshifting, intangibility, one of the greatest Psionics, almost as strong as Superman , Superspeed, FV. But he is not as popular.

http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130821054421/glee/images/7/73/28682-Hell-no-gif-CD0Y.jpg

Originally posted by leonidas
lol when you say it like that. i was trying to find the book with mm and joker to review the scene but couldn't find it. any idea where it took place again?

bizarro has physiological differences as well. he's literally different physically. joker? joker is ALL darkness. i think equating the 2 is actually apples and oranges. i'd love to have seen black try taking on the joker's mind. i have no problem thinking he would not be able to do so. credit to you and delta for convincing me black could take this in tp, but like i said earlier i still think it's pretty damn close...

You mean the scene where J'onn temporarily makes Joker sane?

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/th_JLA15-PG27.jpg http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/th_JLA15-PG28.jpg

Also, even if you don't think Joker's mind and Bizarro's are similar enough for this comparison, J'onn failed to read Bizarro's mind while Manchester rewired it. Similar with Doomsday too.

He's also done it whilst in Fernus mode...

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/ignore_jpg_scale_super/1/16715/3880040-mmh1.png

Well, unless you want to separate them a la Sentry/Void....

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
He's also done it whilst in Fernus mode...

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/ignore_jpg_scale_super/1/16715/3880040-mmh1.png

Well, unless you want to separate them a la Sentry/Void....

Well, IIRC their minds, DNA AND souls were all different. And the Guardians specifically altered the Burning Martians because they were too powerful, or whatever the exact details were.

Yeah. I guess its one of those at which point was it Fernus, and at which point was it MM.

When Jim Corrigan tried judging the Jokers crimes, as soon as he got in his head he TOOK OVER THE SPECTRE FORCE.

MM even surviving in the mind of a guy like that, let alone making him sane, is a tremendous feat.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Yeah. I guess its one of those at which point was it Fernus, and at which point was it MM.

And Fernus not only altered Joker's mind but all those others, and it seemed more permanent. You could argue different writers, but I would argue that Fernus doing a greater feat than what J'onn barely accomplished just supports that Fernus was separate from J'onn.

Originally posted by Delta1938
http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130821054421/glee/images/7/73/28682-Hell-no-gif-CD0Y.jpg



You mean the scene where J'onn temporarily makes Joker sane?

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/th_JLA15-PG27.jpg http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/th_JLA15-PG28.jpg

Also, even if you don't think Joker's mind and Bizarro's are similar enough for this comparison, J'onn failed to read Bizarro's mind while Manchester rewired it. Similar with Doomsday too.

lol damn, had the right arc but the wrong book.... anyway, cool. i wonder--is the feat more impressive because joker has the worlogog in his hands?

ds raised the issue of the spectre with joker which is a great point. mm has also invaded the spectre himself on a couple occasions iirc, not to mention having entered mageddon, though that didn't go all that well ultimately. still a cool feat.

i'm still a bit undecided regarding the bizarro feat vs joker feat. i i still think it's apples and oranges and so the term 'better' needs to be qualified. i wish black would have tried on the joker. not sure he could do much better than mm did. i've brought up the tweaking of dd a couple times. he really only redirected dd, but that is more than mm seemed able to do. i do tend to think there is some pis involved in many mm stories--and i almost never call pis. were he able to solve all the problems in stories with tp, wellllll.... you know. as a result, we do see him fail more often, but his best feats are still ridiculously impressive. i mean, mm himself has said his powers are MORE than just tp.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/2/27470/1137165-martian_manhunter__2006__03_page_07.jpg

as a result, he has MORE to filter (and so emotions come into play often with him, and cis where black has no such inhibitions...) and i think that may explain why he can fail at times.

as far as fernus--mm eventually overcame him. for these battles, i don't think we can use his fernus feats though. he seemed to be not only stronger, but to have new power applications as well. was fernus a pis-less mm? maybe, but i don't think it matters here. fernus certainly demonstrated greater tp powers than even black though.

Originally posted by leonidas
lol damn, had the right arc but the wrong book.... anyway, cool. i wonder--is the feat more impressive because joker has the worlogog in his hands?

ds raised the issue of the spectre with joker which is a great point. mm has also invaded the spectre himself on a couple occasions iirc, not to mention having entered mageddon, though that didn't go all that well ultimately. still a cool feat.

i'm still a bit undecided regarding the bizarro feat vs joker feat. i i still think it's apples and oranges and so the term 'better' needs to be qualified. i wish black would have tried on the joker. not sure he could do much better than mm did. i've brought up the tweaking of dd a couple times. he really only redirected dd, but that is more than mm seemed able to do. i do tend to think there is some pis involved in many mm stories--and i almost never call pis. were he able to solve all the problems in stories with tp, wellllll.... you know. as a result, we do see him fail more often, but his best feats are still ridiculously impressive. i mean, mm himself has said his powers are MORE than just tp.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/2/27470/1137165-martian_manhunter__2006__03_page_07.jpg

as a result, he has MORE to filter (and so emotions come into play often with him, and cis where black has no such inhibitions...) and i think that may explain why he can fail at times.

as far as fernus--mm eventually overcame him. for these battles, i don't think we can use his fernus feats though. he seemed to be not only stronger, but to have new power applications as well. was fernus a pis-less mm? maybe, but i don't think it matters here. fernus certainly demonstrated greater tp powers than even black though.

I didn't see anything indicating he was using the Worlogog in that manner.

Since Manchester Black was stated to be an equal or superior telepath to J'Onn(and showed it by keeping the truth from J'onn), he'd have the raw power(or more) that J'onn had to invade Spectre's mind. Could he do the same? Maybe, maybe not. J'onn might have needed skill and not just raw power.

Actually I was pointing-out if you're still on the Apples And Oranges thing on Joker/Bizarro, we can look how J'onn failed to READ Bizarro's mind in an issue of SUPERMAN/BATMAN(Abhi posted it previously), where Black teepathically "fixed" Bizarro to have normal intelligence. Personally, even if we go about how Joker's and Bizarro's minds are different, I'm more impressed by Manchester "fixing" Bizarro's mind on a more long term basis than J'onn straining to temporarily make Joker sane. But again, compare what J'onn failed to do(read Bizarro's mind) to Black "fixing" Bizarro.

And Black had completely altered Doomsday's mind to the point his perceptions were completely altered on Imperiex, seeing him as Superman. Brainiac is a telepath who created an immensely powerful illusion on essentially a world-wide scale, while he was in a coma on New Genesis(inter-stellar if not inter-galactic distance AND crossing dimensional barriers). And when his body was dying and some machines helped him enter Doomsday's body, he could only control Doomsday for so long before Doomsday took back control(although this could've been his adaptive evolution power). So it's kinda hard to telepathically do anything against Doomsday.

And interesting scan, but it's really just a fancy term for "really far reaching telepathy." I guess that's not what the author intended, but I can't agree with the description being "more" than telepathy.

On Fernus, seemed Fernus was pretty weakened after "giving birth." Or did you mean J'onn overcoming Fernus' mental imprisonment? It's been a while since I read it, but I thought J'onn had help. I'd have to check again.

And to me it seemed like the storyline was making it that Fernus was more than just a CIS/PIS-less Martian Manhunter.

Originally posted by leonidas
lol when you say it like that. i was trying to find the book with mm and joker to review the scene but couldn't find it. any idea where it took place again?

bizarro has physiological differences as well. he's literally different physically. joker? joker is ALL darkness. i think equating the 2 is actually apples and oranges. i'd love to have seen black try taking on the joker's mind. i have no problem thinking he would not be able to do so. credit to you and delta for convincing me black could take this in tp, but like i said earlier i still think it's pretty damn close...


OK. Black has controlled people from different universes. Thousands of them actually.

Originally posted by cdtm
When Jim Corrigan tried judging the Jokers crimes, as soon as he got in his head he TOOK OVER THE SPECTRE FORCE.

MM even surviving in the mind of a guy like that, let alone making him sane, is a tremendous feat.

How the **** did I miss this post? Issue reference cdtm?

have the scans but can't recall the issue number. i THINK spectre 51.

http://i668.photobucket.com/albums/vv50/jokertheclownprince/jokermisc-jimspectre1d.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/107179/3535361-1952224-1896227_jokermisc_spectre_v3_51e.jpg

it says spectre hadn't fully recovered but...that's a bit lame and regardless, a cool feat for the joker who instantly took command of the spectre. making joker sane is a truly uber feat, even if it only lasted for a short time.

Originally posted by leonidas
have the scans but can't recall the issue number. i THINK spectre 51.

http://i668.photobucket.com/albums/vv50/jokertheclownprince/jokermisc-jimspectre1d.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/107179/3535361-1952224-1896227_jokermisc_spectre_v3_51e.jpg

it says spectre hadn't fully recovered but...that's a bit lame and regardless, a cool feat for the joker who instantly took command of the spectre. making joker sane is a truly uber feat, even if it only lasted for a short time.

It's a good feat for Joker, but if Spectre was stabbed with the Spear Of Destiny(which I believe was capable of killing him; it damn near killed a powerful Elemental, and I think Gaea or whoever along with the Elemental due to their connection), I'm not sure if I'd call J'onn making him sane "truly uber" in context. I'll have to check the storyline later.

And it is SPECTRE #51, found it in my collection.

we'll just disagree on the level of joker's insanity i suppose then. i don't recall how long prior to this take over the spear stabbing was, but spectre didn't seem to be suffering from it in any other way. still it was pointed out by the writer, but he was non-specific in regards to how far from 'fully recovered' the spectre was. regardless, still a great feat and a testament to the nature of joker's mind. could i see bizarro pulling that off? not in any way shape or form.....

Originally posted by leonidas
we'll just disagree on the level of joker's insanity i suppose then. i don't recall how long prior to this take over the spear stabbing was, but spectre didn't seem to be suffering from it in any other way. still it was pointed out by the writer, but he was non-specific in regards to how far from 'fully recovered' the spectre was. regardless, still a great feat and a testament to the nature of joker's mind. could i see bizarro pulling that off? not in any way shape or form.....

Why do you keep bringing-up Bizarro compared to Joker even though Abhi and I said if you don't think "fixing" Bizarro's mind is more impressive than temporarily making Joker sane, there's the fact that J'onn failed to read Bizarro's mind compared to what Manchester Black did?

well, there is the fact that mm didn't actually 'fail' per se to read bizarro's mind. rather in what appeared to be a casual psi reading he just uncovered a lot of noise that he didn't seem to care about even trying to unravel. it wasn't that he couldn't get in bizarro's mind, it was simply that he didn't really try sorting anything out in it. could he have had he applied some serious effort? imo probably, so i don't find his 'failure' there as telling as you guys seem to or rather i don't find black's control of bizarro as great a feat as you guys do. anyway, the discussion has about run it's course. i agree that black is likely the slightly more powerful tp. is he as skilled as mm? dunno, maybe. i'd give black a very slight edge in the tp department. interesting discussion.

Originally posted by leonidas
well, there is the fact that mm didn't actually 'fail' per se to read bizarro's mind. rather in what appeared to be a casual psi reading he just uncovered a lot of noise that he didn't seem to care about even trying to unravel. it wasn't that he couldn't get in bizarro's mind, it was simply that he didn't really try sorting anything out in it. could he have had he applied some serious effort? imo probably, so i don't find his 'failure' there as telling as you guys seem to or rather i don't find black's control of bizarro as great a feat as you guys do. anyway, the discussion has about run it's course. i agree that black is likely the slightly more powerful tp. is he as skilled as mm? dunno, maybe. i'd give black a very slight edge in the tp department. interesting discussion.

Well doesn't seem there's a point in replying other than noting that Black didn't control Bizarro's mind as much as "fix" it.

yeah, he 'cleaned' it i think is the word. i wonder though how much of that was tp and how much was tk or a combo. the whole thing was sorta...odd imo. the shock wave of a nuclear blast drove him batty again, apparently, though the way he was sweating before the blast i don't know if he was fighting the control or afraid of the blast. strange. and i don't think mm really gave bizarro's mind anything more than a cursory glance, so what he may have accomplished had he really tried something more is hard to say. still black also had banshee and mongul (apparently) under control so again, a great feat, no doubt.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So that you can mercilessly beat them down and show them how wrong you think they are?

I mean, you've obviously seen every appearance of both, and more importantly, made your mind up about what they represent. IOW, no one is going to change your opinion.

But you seem most interested in changing others'.

Why is it so important? Is it so you can pump up another of Superman's foes, whilst putting down one of his colleagues? Yup. This happens so many times in this forum, literally the same people make threads that are thinly disguised as real threads when they're actually just a setup for the thread starter to promote their favorite character.

The sad part is that abhi literally has nothing better to do right now than to make us all love superman in a convoluted manner.

This is better for a respect thread, not a false debate

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/ignore_jpg_scale_small/11115/111153050/3852290-00000000000000supes.png I agree with Superman.

Originally posted by carver9
This. It's obvious why ABHI made this thread.

Don't throw stones in glass houses, buddy.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
Yup. This happens so many times in this forum, literally the same people make threads that are thinly disguised as real threads when they're actually just a setup for the thread starter to promote their favorite character.

The sad part is that abhi literally has nothing better to do right now than to make us all love superman in a convoluted manner.

This is better for a respect thread, not a false debate
This is why i waited to post my choice till i saw his. Wasnt sure how he'd choose to hype Superman in this Vs.
If i disagreed i was going to skip the thread more than likely.
I really do believe MB wins, though, all fanboy-ism aside.

Originally posted by leonidas
yeah, he 'cleaned' it i think is the word. i wonder though how much of that was tp and how much was tk or a combo. the whole thing was sorta...odd imo. the shock wave of a nuclear blast drove him batty again, apparently, though the way he was sweating before the blast i don't know if he was fighting the control or afraid of the blast. strange. and i don't think mm really gave bizarro's mind anything more than a cursory glance, so what he may have accomplished had he really tried something more is hard to say. still black also had banshee and mongul (apparently) under control so again, a great feat, no doubt.

From what I remember, I took the scene as he was leaving Black's area of the "fix." But I'd have to reread it.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I agree with Superman.

Urinecompetence and ignorance gave me a chuckle.

Originally posted by Delta1938
Urinecompetence I've never seen such a butchered word. It's two words melded into one conjoined twin of fail

Originally posted by leonidas
have the scans but can't recall the issue number. i THINK spectre 51.

http://i668.photobucket.com/albums/vv50/jokertheclownprince/jokermisc-jimspectre1d.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/107179/3535361-1952224-1896227_jokermisc_spectre_v3_51e.jpg

it says spectre hadn't fully recovered but...that's a bit lame and regardless, a cool feat for the joker who instantly took command of the spectre. making joker sane is a truly uber feat, even if it only lasted for a short time.

Spectre not having recovered yet is Ostrander's way of saying that Joker wouldn't be able to do that unless the Spectre was weakened.

In their following encounter in the Joker Last Laugh tie in (Hal-Spectre this time), it was stated that manipulating Joker's mind would have been easy:

http://i.imgur.com/96n6VjD.jpg?1

Not that it's not impressive from Joker's part. Taking control over a weakened Spectre is still very impressive.

Originally posted by operator616
Spectre not having recovered yet is Ostrander's way of saying that Joker wouldn't be able to do that unless the Spectre was weakened.

In their following encounter in the Joker Last Laugh tie in (Hal-Spectre this time), it was stated that manipulating Joker's mind would have been easy:

http://i.imgur.com/96n6VjD.jpg?1

Not that it's not impressive from Joker's part. Taking control over a weakened Spectre is still very impressive.



i must be missing something. the scan says SHOULD have been easy, not WOULD have been, which is a big difference, but then we see hal what, being blasted away...? was that emperor joker? what's the next scan? anyway, loads of characters THINK something 'should' be easy and are proven wrong.... not saying a full powered spectre couldn't do it--full powered spectre can do about anything, but as i said earlier we have no idea just how 'weak' the spectre was and he really didn't seem weak aside from that comment. but i agree, impressive regardless.

Originally posted by leonidas


i must be missing something. the scan says SHOULD have been easy, not WOULD have been, which is a big difference, but then we see hal what, being blasted away...? was that emperor joker? what's the next scan? anyway, loads of characters THINK something 'should' be easy and are proven wrong....

No. It was during Joker's Last Laugh story. Where Joker thought he was dying and started jokerizing most of the super villain community which he became psychically connected to and his mind was enhanced. So it says "should" because the Joker wasn't his standard self. He was enhanced by his psychic connection to the jokerized characters. Here are the consecutive scans:

http://i.imgur.com/VL7ufvv.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ltFwovI.jpg

Basically, what that scan is saying is, standard Joker should have been easily mindraped, but this enhanced Joker wasn't.

Originally posted by leonidas
not saying a full powered spectre couldn't do it--full powered spectre can do about anything, but as i said earlier we have no idea just how 'weak' the spectre was and he really didn't seem weak aside from that comment. but i agree, impressive regardless.

Well, in the story prior to Spectre v3 #51, Spectre was about to die since he was stabbed by the spear multiple times. Which IS capable of killing him.

Just saying. Im pretty sure that Joker's take over was specifically attributed to Spectre not being recovered.

But yeah, impressive regardless.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
I've never seen such a butchered word. It's two words melded into one conjoined twin of fail

Not sure if you're aware of the situation with Quanny cakes or not.

Originally posted by operator616
No. It was during Joker's Last Laugh story. Where Joker thought he was dying and started jokerizing most of the super villain community which he became psychically connected to and his mind was enhanced. So it says "should" because the Joker wasn't his standard self. He was enhanced by his psychic connection to the jokerized characters. Here are the consecutive scans:

http://i.imgur.com/VL7ufvv.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ltFwovI.jpg

Basically, what that scan is saying is, standard Joker should have been easily mindraped, but this enhanced Joker wasn't.



Well, in the story prior to Spectre v3 #51, Spectre was about to die since he was stabbed by the spear multiple times. Which IS capable of killing him.

Just saying. Im pretty sure that Joker's take over was specifically attributed to Spectre not being recovered.

But yeah, impressive regardless.

ah, cool. i wonder though just how amped he was? i like that spectre himself says that the joker's mind is formidable though. i guess unquantifiable weakness on spectre's part and unquantifiable amp on joker's part. even if he was amped by...however much, he didn't even notice spectre in his head. even amped that is a very good feat. all the madness in creation? lol yeah, joker's mind is a bad place.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
I've never seen such a butchered word. It's two words melded into one conjoined twin of fail I don't think English is his native language. He claims to be from the planet Krypton.

Originally posted by leonidas
ah, cool. i wonder though just how amped he was? i like that spectre himself says that the joker's mind is formidable though. i guess unquantifiable weakness on spectre's part and unquantifiable amp on joker's part. even if he was amped by...however much, he didn't even notice spectre in his head. even amped that is a very good feat. all the madness in creation? lol yeah, joker's mind is a bad place.

Unknown since there wasn't any specific mention of it throughout the story.

We know that it amped Joker from being able to get easily mindraped by Hal-Spectre, to owning him.

easily mindraped in hal's estimation.....

Originally posted by quanchi112
I don't think English is his native language. He claims to be from the planet Krypton.

Urine imbecile.