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Force, sabers, all out

Hmmm. Marek obviously has the Force and the Wrath has the sabers, but I think Marek would likely win in all out after a good fight.

Being weaker than someone who almost lost to pre-ANH Vader isn't doing much for him, tho. If this were the clone, I'd might think differently, but for now I don't see the Force giving Marek the edge.

True, Vaders level is really inconsistent at this point.

Yeah, but Starkiller almost lost to Vader in sabers, and I believe Marek was a better saberist than his clone, to begin with. Now the DA, on the other hand...

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Being weaker than someone who almost lost to pre-ANH Vader isn't doing much for him, tho. If this were the clone, I'd might think differently, but for now I don't see the Force giving Marek the edge.

Other than having force feats several magnitudes greater than anything the Wrath has ever done...

Marek dominates the Wrath. Brutally.

Originally posted by ares834
Other than having force feats several magnitudes greater than anything the Wrath has ever done...

Marek dominates the Wrath. Brutally.
lolno. I'm going to go by his dueling capabilities, not the ridiculousness that is his video game/book. Dueling wise, he couldn't keep up with someone who struggled with Oldi-Wan.

So you're going to ignore canon feats. Gotcha.

No, but you're trying to ignore canon skill. In fights were Marek and his clone clearly had the Force still open to them just as much as when they are guiding frigates into buildings, they still weren't up to par. His ability to make things explode doesn't make him all that powerful even in his own game.

Makes him powerful enough to atomize the Wrath with a wave of his hand. And Vader, BTW, has feats that shit over anything I've seen from the Wrath so it's really a moot point.

Originally posted by ares834
Makes him powerful enough to atomize the Wrath with a wave of his hand. And Vader, BTW, has feats that shit over anything I've seen from the Wrath so it's really a moot point.

Lol, no.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Lol, no.

Show me the feats then.

Show me Mareks non-exaggerated feats.

Marek is hardly as powerful as he's made out to be.

You mean the feats from the novelization and game that are every bit as canon as TOR?

Originally posted by ares834
You mean the feats from the novelization and game that are every bit as canon as TOR?

Yes, those feats.

Marek couldn't atomise Shaak Ti, he's not atomising someone more powerful than her. The Wrath is one of the most powerful Sith in TOR, theres no way he's getting dominated like that.

Hyperbole (on my part). Plus, when Marek fought Ti he wasn't at his prime yet.

His prime is still barely above Vader, who has nowhere near the insane feats Marek does.

Cool. Guess that shows how powerful Vader truly is.

Or that Marek isn't as powerful as he's portrayed in exaggerated material. Vader was defeated by Maul shortly after this.

Vader in his prime is well above Galen Marek. Vader well below his prime is on par with the Clone who is stronger than Galen Marek. The fact that I've seen Marek move starships means nothing when he can't overwhelm anyone with these same abilities.

Look, we have 3 different sources for Marek (game, comic, and book). The novelization has, in the past, been used to reference his abilities. If we're going to look at his dueling skill from these sources, then we have to look at his Force abilities from those same sources. Otherwise, that's willfully ignoring canon. That being said, Marek's dueling skill was enough to legitimately defeat Vader, and his Force abilities have been more impressive. I do agree that the Wrath would outduel Marek, but I think he wins the Force and All Out portions.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Or that Marek isn't as powerful as he's portrayed in exaggerated material.

Canon material is canon.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Vader was defeated by Maul shortly after this.

Don't remember this happening. Although, I do recall reading a comic wherein Vader kills a Maul clone after nearly losing. And in said fight Vader didn't use any force powers.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Vader in his prime is well above Galen Marek. Vader well below his prime is on par with the Clone who is stronger than Galen Marek. The fact that I've seen Marek move starships means nothing when he can't overwhelm anyone with these same abilities.

Shows you how impressive Vader in his prime truly is.

Marek defeating Vader means nothing when he couldn't compete with the same Vader who is on par with Obi-Wan well out of his prime. His track record means more than anything do to the way that he is portrayed. And honestly, the novel, the game, and the comic all have Force abilities over some of the things even Palpatine has ever claimed up until that point. It's not like any of them are reliable when judging Marek, especially when he almost gets stomped shortly after.

Originally posted by ares834
Canon material is canon.



Don't remember this happening. Although, I do recall reading a comic wherein Vader kills a Maul clone after nearly losing. And in said fight Vader didn't use any force powers.

Right. It is canon. And exaggerated.

And some random Maul clone was obviously vastly superior to the original, right? Vader did use the Force, just not on Maul directly.

So what you are saying is Old Ben stomps this guys as well.

Nice.

It's hard to tell if you're just trolling at this point.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Right. It is canon. And exaggerated.

Interesting. Yet, contradictory.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And some random Maul clone was obviously vastly superior to the original, right? Vader did use the Force, just not on Maul directly.

Nah. He is just lucky Vader didn't crush him into a ball. Just liek every opponent that faces Luke or Abeloth or pretty much any time a non-force user confronts a Jedi/Sith.

Originally posted by ares834
So what you are saying is Old Ben stomps this guys as well.

Nice.
You've been taught to well.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Marek defeating Vader means nothing when he couldn't compete with the same Vader who is on par with Obi-Wan well out of his prime. His track record means more than anything do to the way that he is portrayed. And honestly, the novel, the game, and the comic all have Force abilities over some of the things even Palpatine has ever claimed up until that point. It's not like any of them are reliable when judging Marek, especially when he almost gets stomped shortly after.


I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous. You can't just ignore everything on Marek, solely because you think he's too powerful. Remember, they were manipulating artificial black holes in NJO. How is this any worse?

Originally posted by Nephthys
It's hard to tell if you're just trolling at this point.

What gave it away? Obviously, I doubt Old Ben could defeat this guy. But inconsistent power levels run rampant throughout Star Wars. Characters have lower end feats but I don't hold that against them. Unless, they have "teh z0ne" moments I debate about the characters operating at their best not their worst.

Originally posted by Kalen Sykes
I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous. You can't just ignore everything on Marek, solely because you think he's too powerful. Remember, they were manipulating artificial black holes in NJO. How is this any worse?
No, that's not what I said at all.

Vader struggled with Obi-Wan out of his prime.
This Vader is well above Galen Marek and is only on par with his clone.

If Galen Marek can't compete with the Shadow of Obi-Wan, he's not all that powerful. It has nothing to do with ignoring Marek's feats. All it does is show that even in his own exaggeration, Marek is not all that powerful.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
No, that's not what I said at all.

Vader struggled with Obi-Wan out of his prime.
This Vader is well above Galen Marek and is only on par with his clone.

If Galen Marek can't compete with the Shadow of Obi-Wan, he's not all that powerful. It has nothing to do with ignoring Marek's feats. All it does is show that even in his own exaggeration, Marek is not all that powerful.


But isn't that an ABC argument? How do you know Marek wouldn't be able to defeat Obi-Wan? That ANH duel was strictly sabers, and I've already stated that Marek was a better duelist than his clone. Plus, he's shown that if he doesn't hold the advantage in sabers, he'll immediately resort to using the Force, something this forum (minus me, but I bow to the majority) has agreed that Kenobi has problems defending against...

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
No, that's not what I said at all.

Vader struggled with Obi-Wan out of his prime.
This Vader is well above Galen Marek and is only on par with his clone.

If Galen Marek can't compete with the Shadow of Obi-Wan, he's not all that powerful. It has nothing to do with ignoring Marek's feats. All it does is show that even in his own exaggeration, Marek is not all that powerful.

Using the same logic Desann > DE Palpatine...

So anyone other than ares got an opinion here?

Not really. Not only was Desann amped, he actually surprised Luke. Darth Vader vs Obi-Wan was an honest duel. Also, during the final duel of DE, Luke was being amped/helped by Leia.

Originally posted by Nephthys
So anyone other than ares got an opinion here?


I have been commenting in this thread.

Originally posted by Kalen Sykes
But isn't that an ABC argument? How do you know Marek wouldn't be able to defeat Obi-Wan? That ANH duel was strictly sabers, and I've already stated that Marek was a better duelist than his clone. Plus, he's shown that if he doesn't hold the advantage in sabers, he'll immediately resort to using the Force, something this forum (minus me, but I bow to the majority) has agreed that Kenobi has problems defending against...
The Wrath is a better saberist than Marek, so the part about the Clone being a lesser saberist is irrelevant. The clone that was better than Marek in the Force did the same thing against Vader and lost. He only overwhelmed Vader with the environmental advantage. I honestly think the clone could defeat the Wrath, and the Dark Apprentice destroys, but Galen Marek himself is just not strong enough in the Force.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
The Wrath is a better saberist than Marek, so the part about the Clone being a lesser saberist is irrelevant. The clone that was better than Marek in the Force did the same thing against Vader and lost. He only overwhelmed Vader with the environmental advantage. I honestly think the clone could defeat the Wrath, and the Dark Apprentice destroys, but Galen Marek himself is just not strong enough in the Force.


I never said Marek would defeat the Wrath in sabers, in fact I agreed with Neph that he would lose. Starkiller's saber skill was being called into question, and I was pointing out that it didn't matter, because he was inferior to Marek in that department. The clone wasn't defeated by Vader in sabers, either. Starkiller willingly had Vader disarm him, so he could surprise Vader with the concentrated lightning burst. Before that, they were dueling evenly. And as far as being on ANH Kenobi's level, I don't see how any of that is relevant, since the Force wasn't used in that fight.

I'm going out of town, so I won't be able to respond for a couple of hours.

The duel with Obi-Wan shows just how outclassed Marek is in sabers here. Vader improved in sabers considerably between the two games, so the amount of saber skill he has is relevant. The Clone also had no delusion of being Vader's match in sabers either, so while he may have willingly let himself be disarmed, it was more likely because he had no other option. Either way, Starkiller's Lightning wasn't enough to overwhelm Vader. Marek's skill in the Force is even lesser than this.

And no rush.

Keep clinging to low showings to "prove" your argument. After all, Quanchi's favorite debating style is unsurpassed.

So everytime a character is doing well, that's their combat prowess, but when they get their ass handed to them, that's a low showing.

No. But that's not what happened here.

Isn't it hypocritical of you to chide me about ignoring canon then ignore "low end feats?"

Originally posted by Nephthys
Isn't it hypocritical of you to chide me about ignoring canon then ignore "low end feats?"

Nope. I don't ignore them, they happened. However, as I said earlier, when I debate I assume said character is battling at their best.

So what makes you think these loses are any less valid?

First, it's not a loss.

Secondly, it's a far lesser feat than many of Vader's others. Is it as "valid" as the others? Sure. But I debate characters operating at their best, not their worst. Debating based on characters lesser feats is lowballing. Always has been.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
The duel with Obi-Wan shows just how outclassed Marek is in sabers here. Vader improved in sabers considerably between the two games, so the amount of saber skill he has is relevant. The Clone also had no delusion of being Vader's match in sabers either, so while he may have willingly let himself be disarmed, it was more likely because he had no other option. Either way, Starkiller's Lightning wasn't enough to overwhelm Vader. Marek's skill in the Force is even lesser than this.

And no rush.

Finally made it back.

The saber portion is irrelevant, imo. I believe Marek would lose in sabers to Wrath. That being said, I think the ANH duel is being taken a little too seriously. Vader, to me, looked like he was toying with Kenobi, and Obi-Wan did show signs of being pressured. Looking at that, I don't see anything that would put ANH Obi-Wan over Marek.

Since this is about Marek vs Wrath, though, we need to looks at his Force feats, which I use the book for. I don't look at the game because other than the KOTOR/TOR series, there's usually another source with more accurate information and representations of the characters. In the book, his lightning was powerful enough to shut down an AT-AT in one blast, and while he just redirected it, the feat with the Star Destroyer above Raxus Prime still shows impressive power.

Originally posted by ares834
First, it's not a loss.

Secondly, it's a far lesser feat than many of Vader's others. Is it as "valid" as the others? Sure. But I debate characters operating at their best, not their worst. Debating based on characters lesser feats is lowballing. Always has been.
Losing to your strongest opponent is not lowballing. And as far as I'm concerned Marek's clone was done when he faced Vader, if not for the setting. And the clone is stronger than Marek.
Originally posted by Kalen Sykes

The saber portion is irrelevant, imo. I believe Marek would lose in sabers to Wrath. That being said, I think the ANH duel is being taken a little too seriously. Vader, to me, looked like he was toying with Kenobi, and Obi-Wan did show signs of being pressured. Looking at that, I don't see anything that would put ANH Obi-Wan over Marek.

Vader wasn't toying with Obi-Wan and was trying to kill him. The novel shows where Vader goes in to cut Obi-Wan in half multiple times and he fails.

Yes, but none of that ever translated into a combat situation, is what I'm saying. TFU made it seem like any powerful Jedi could replicate his feats. This will comedown to a battle with the Force to save Marek here, and the Wrath has already tanked the Force from Dark Side entities, high level Council members, and the Voice. Marek's Lighting in a combat situation just isn't all that different from anyone else's.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Losing to your strongest opponent is not lowballing. And as far as I'm concerned Marek's clone was done when he faced Vader, if not for the setting. And the clone is stronger than Marek.

Using the Obi-Wan fight as the basis of Vader's dueling capabilities is lowballing though.

And you're not merely using it to diminish Vader, but Marek as well...

FreshestSlice, you keep mentioning the setting, when referring to Starkiller's fight against Vader. Are you talking about the lightning rods used in the game, but not in the book?

It has nothing to do with lowballing, as I see nothing to say that Vader wasn't fighting to the fullest of his capabilities just because it's Obi-Wan. The point was to show how firmly below these others Marek is in sabers, yes, but it has nothing to do with how bad Vader is. I just consider the Wrath better than Obi-Wan in sabers. If Marek can't keep up, oh well.

Originally posted by Kalen Sykes
FreshestSlice, you keep mentioning the setting, when referring to Starkiller's fight against Vader. Are you talking about the lightning rods used in the game, but not in the book?
Sure, both are valid. Especially if we're going to consider Marek shocking an AT-AT into submission valid. But more importantly, Kamino is an optimal setting to attack someone vulnerable to Lightning, especially considering the constant raining.

facepalm

It's a lowballing... You're judging Vader's lightsaber skills based on one of his worst (low) showings. That's what lowballing means.

How exactly is it one of his worst showings when he was losing to Maul just after? Could it possibly be that Vader just wasn't near his prime?

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Sure, both are valid. Especially if we're going to consider Marek shocking an AT-AT into submission valid. But more importantly, Kamino is an optimal setting to attack someone vulnerable to Lightning, especially considering the constant raining.


I'm not disputing that part, but the lightning rods, not being in the novelization provides an inconsistency. In the novel, Starkiller used Force lightning and disarmed Vader, to win the fight.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
How exactly is it one of his worst showings when he was losing to Maul just after? Could it possibly be that Vader just wasn't near his prime?

It's one of his worst showings because it's one of his worst showings.

Hell, he was initially besting Maul until Maul used two sabers and, of course, Maul is a better swordsman than Old Ben. Then, there are Vader's other saber feats from stories set before ANH that shows his great skill (well in excess of what he displayed in ANH).

Lol. I wonder which user he's gonna imitate in his user name next. After this one gets banned I mean.

Can someone actually list some feats and quotes (something specific) regarding The Wrath's skill with a blade? Then maybe some force feats, if that's not too hard? You guys are too hung up on how Vader's fight with Kenobi was displayed in ANH, which using that logic, Sidious is in the same boat. The fact that Kenobi managed to last a while against Vader, speaks very well for his skill in defense. After all, Kenobi was never the most aggressive fighter anyway, and he would only need superfast reflexes/reaction speed to match Vader's striking speed and a proper defense. That's not a low saber showing for Vader, it's a very good one for old Kenobi. I get it, though, not too many force users can match Vader in skill (highly sufficient in all saber forms enough to incorporate them in his own unique style, and taking on and defeating other skilled duelists) and raw power (crushing tie fighters with a gesture, throwing several ton vehicles and/or starships, etc...), so the best thing to do is keep quiet on the TOR era characters, and attack the PT era's character in an attempt to nitpick at and diminish certain feats. That's pretty much how debates have been going on around here, and it's getting a bit weak. Vader has shown tremendous raw power out side of TFU novels, so there's no reason to assume that the main character of said novels is an exaggerated one.

Also for those of you who keep on bringing up why 'such and such' characters were unable to beat 'so and so,' who weren't shown to do 'this and that,' might I just remind everyone that TOR's most dominate force user (who is actually a very clumsy and blind old man who runs into sabers) is lacking in actual combat showings. I mean, his best is good, but not overwhelmingly so.

I actually did a fighting style analysis for both Vader and Old Ben

Emperor, details?

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=593095
2nd and 3rd posts.

Or 3rd and 4th if you count the intro as a post.

Originally posted by ares834
It's one of his worst showings because it's one of his worst showings.

Hell, he was initially besting Maul until Maul used two sabers and, of course, Maul is a better swordsman than Old Ben. Then, there are Vader's other saber feats from stories set before ANH that shows his great skill (well in excess of what he displayed in ANH).
You don't get to just decide when to include and exclude fights. I see nothing, still, that makes me think Vader didn't fight to the fullest of his capabilities. If anything, his constant training and improvement after ANH shows that even he thought that he wasn't performing as well as he should have.

Alright. Keep on low balling. I'm not going to waste anymore time on you.

Originally posted by ares834
Nah. He is just lucky Vader didn't crush him into a ball. Just liek every opponent that faces Luke or Abeloth or pretty much any time a non-force user confronts a Jedi/Sith.

Its nothing to do with luck, just personality.

A) Jedi aren't in the habit of crushing people into balls. Just because you "can" crush someone into a ball doesn't mean you "should."

B) Sith have no moral qualms, but they are usually arrogant, especially against non-Force-users. This often leads to the non-Force-user getting the upper hand.

Consider Vader vs. Boba Fett. Vader knew he could crush him anytime so he toyed with him a bit. This allowed Fett to get in a good shot. Vader then went "no more playing around" and started crushing him with the Force.

C) Not every Jedi/Sith CAN crush someone into a ball. I'm pretty sure say, Johun Othone, wasn't strong enough for that.