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Captain Marvel- Pre-Flashpoint

VS

Kurse

Battlefield?

B-List Superman wannabe vs a guy 4x Thor's strength?

CM gets spite stomped unless he uses that Wisdom of Solomon power to find Kurse's iron weakness.

Kurse rips him in half. Unless BRF is an option.

Let's see. CM is fairly stronger than Kurse, insanely faster (this makes the fight spite), has flight and lightning.

For all those of you who disagree with me then certainly you can't disagree that Kurse can be bfred very easily into space.

Originally posted by h1a8
Let's see. CM is fairly stronger than Kurse,

Why?

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Why? I have to rethink this.
I believe CM is almost equal to Superman (when he is subconsciously holding back).
So 4x Kurse may be stronger than CM while a 2x Kurse about a touch stronger.

Originally posted by h1a8
I have to rethink this.
I believe CM is almost equal to Superman (when he is subconsciously holding back).
So 4x Kurse may be stronger than CM while a 2x Kurse about a touch stronger. CM is equal to superman at all times unless superman sun-amp, with that said, Kurse stomps CM.

If bfr is allowed, then cap marvel wins. If not, kurse wins after a very good fight.

Originally posted by JBL
CM is equal to superman at all times unless superman sun-amp, with that said, Kurse stomps CM. Stop trolling. I mean it. I already gave undeniable proof that Superman is at least several times stronger when he SUBCONSCIOUSLY stop holding back.
We have where Superman going from not being able to hurt DD (using all of his conscious might) to killing DD in a few panels (when he released his mental blocks). This is beyond a 5x increase.

We have batman outright stating Superman has mental blocks that makes him subconsciously hold back when members of the JL thought Supergirl was stronger. Meaning, Superman doesn't know he's holding back at times or can't consciously prevent it at times.

We have OWAW where it explicitly states and shows Superman subconsciously holding back and Superman having to be trained through meditation and hypnotize himself to release those mental blocks to be on a insane level he never reached. He went from fighting probes for hours to one shotting them like fodder. This is more than a 5x increase.

We have Superman increasing his power over the years (he got several amps) after he an CM fought evenly before. He has gotten at least 3x more powerful over the years. From mountain moving to planet lifting.

Lastly, you are an idiot.
Why do you even post when you don't ever debate. All you do is enemy D.C. characters. Strength doesn't win forum fights idiot. Whose stronger has absolutely nothing to do with the winner when two characters have different power sets. CM is faster and can't be touched if he doesn't want to be. Kurse has no super speed. CM has flight and can bfr Kurse to outer space at any time in the fight. This alone proves that idiots only see strength.

P.S. if two beings are holding back and appear to be equals, that doesn't mean they are equal. One can be holding back much more than the other. For example, CM could be twice as strong when he stops holding back and Superman 5x as strong. CM never ever showed a 5x or more increase in strength when he stop holding back.

Originally posted by h1a8
Stop trolling. I mean it. I already gave undeniable proof that Superman is at least several times stronger when he SUBCONSCIOUSLY stop holding back.
We have where Superman going from not being able to hurt DD (using all of his conscious might) to killing DD in a few panels (when he released his mental blocks). This is beyond a 5x increase.

We have batman outright stating Superman has mental blocks that makes him subconsciously hold back when members of the JL thought Supergirl was stronger. Meaning, Superman doesn't know he's holding back at times or can't consciously prevent it at times.

We have OWAW where it explicitly states and shows Superman subconsciously holding back and Superman having to be trained through meditation and hypnotize himself to release those mental blocks to be on a insane level he never reached. He went from fighting probes for hours to one shotting them like fodder. This is more than a 5x increase.

We have Superman increasing his power over the years (he got several amps) after he an CM fought evenly before. He has gotten at least 3x more powerful over the years. From mountain moving to planet lifting.

Lastly, you are an idiot.
Why do you even post when you don't ever debate. All you do is enemy D.C. characters. Strength doesn't win forum fights idiot. Whose stronger has absolutely nothing to do with the winner when two characters have different power sets. CM is faster and can't be touched if he doesn't want to be. Kurse has no super speed. CM has flight and can bfr Kurse to outer space at any time in the fight. This alone proves that idiots only see strength.

P.S. if two beings are holding back and appear to be equals, that doesn't mean they are equal. One can be holding back much more than the other. For example, CM could be twice as strong when he stops holding back and Superman 5x as strong. CM never ever showed a 5x or more increase in strength when he stop holding back. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v513/marshal99/comics/strength.jpg

Calculate your way out of this. So all that BS crap and calculations you dreamed up one night is thrown out the window with the pot of piss you just posted.

Originally posted by JBL
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v513/marshal99/comics/strength.jpg

Calculate your way out of this.

Pre-Crisis...

Originally posted by h1a8
Stop trolling. I mean it. I already gave undeniable proof that Superman is at least several times stronger when he SUBCONSCIOUSLY stop holding back.
We have where Superman going from not being able to hurt DD (using all of his conscious might) to killing DD in a few panels (when he released his mental blocks). This is beyond a 5x increase.

We have batman outright stating Superman has mental blocks that makes him subconsciously hold back when members of the JL thought Supergirl was stronger. Meaning, Superman doesn't know he's holding back at times or can't consciously prevent it at times.

We have OWAW where it explicitly states and shows Superman subconsciously holding back and Superman having to be trained through meditation and hypnotize himself to release those mental blocks to be on a insane level he never reached. He went from fighting probes for hours to one shotting them like fodder. This is more than a 5x increase.

We have Superman increasing his power over the years (he got several amps) after he an CM fought evenly before. He has gotten at least 3x more powerful over the years. From mountain moving to planet lifting.

Lastly, you are an idiot.
Why do you even post when you don't ever debate. All you do is enemy D.C. characters. Strength doesn't win forum fights idiot. Whose stronger has absolutely nothing to do with the winner when two characters have different power sets. CM is faster and can't be touched if he doesn't want to be. Kurse has no super speed. CM has flight and can bfr Kurse to outer space at any time in the fight. This alone proves that idiots only see strength.

P.S. if two beings are holding back and appear to be equals, that doesn't mean they are equal. One can be holding back much more than the other. For example, CM could be twice as strong when he stops holding back and Superman 5x as strong. CM never ever showed a 5x or more increase in strength when he stop holding back.

I'm still trying to understand how any of this has anything to do with Marvel characters.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
Pre-Crisis... It does not matter, EVERY writer has them as equals and NOT ONE WRITER has changed it even to this day. H1A8s BS crap about mental blocks is just that, BS. Superman mental blocks are there because he had to practice MENTALLY holding back so that he did not have to constantly monitor himself when around or fighting WEAKER characters. That's what batman was talking about. Superman does not gain 5x his strength by not holding back or releasing mental blocks. I know its a crossover, but look at when marvel and DC had hulk and superman fighting when something was buzzing around hulk ear controlling him, hulk was getting angry and was about to overpower superman and Marvel made it clear that hulk was getting stronger by the second, Do you think DC is NOT going to showcase superman in the face of a rival company if superman could stop holding back or drop his BS mental blocks to compete???? What do they do? They make him sun-amp. That's the ONLY way he can get stronger. His strength is set in stone, thats why oh smart ass braniac said that superman would not normally be able to push warworld. He had to sun-amp. He even stated himself that he did not have to worry about holding back against BA because he knew BA would have beaten his ass if he did. If superman wants to stop holding back, then so will his peers and keep it equal, but not one of them is getting any stronger unless you are the hulk.

Originally posted by Stoic
I'm still trying to understand how any of this has anything to do with Marvel characters. He wants DC characters to have his make believe mental blocks or 5x strength increasing dreams and Marvel characters are looking on crying...... in his dreams..... Why do you think he picked the number 5x for supermans strength increase??.....ANSWER.... Because Kurse gained 4.

Originally posted by JBL
It does not matter, EVERY writer has them as equals and NOT ONE WRITER has changed it even to this day. H1A8s BS crap about mental blocks is just that, BS. Superman mental blocks are there because he had to practice MENTALLY holding back so that he did not have to constantly monitor himself when around or fighting WEAKER characters. That's what batman was talking about. Superman does not gain 5x his strength by not holding back or releasing mental blocks. I know its a crossover, but look at when marvel and DC had hulk and superman fighting when something was buzzing around hulk ear controlling him, hulk was getting angry and was about to overpower superman and Marvel made it clear that hulk was getting stronger by the second, Do you think DC is NOT going to showcase superman in the face of a rival company if superman could stop holding back or drop his BS mental blocks to compete???? What do they do? They make him sun-amp. That's the ONLY way he can get stronger. His strength is set in stone, thats why oh smart ass braniac said that superman would not normally be able to push warworld. He had to sun-amp. He even stated himself that he did not have to worry about holding back against BA because he knew BA would have beaten his ass if he did. If superman wants to stop holding back, then so will his peers and keep it equal, but not one of them is getting any stronger unless you are the hulk.

So are you really going to ignore on panel proof? Should I report you?
The OWAW storyline PROVES the mental block thing. Superman increased his might by more than 5x through meditation and training. He went from fighting a single probe for hours to one shotting them like fodder. You can't ignore this evidence at all. The DOS storyline proves it as well. Superman went from using all of his believed might to not being able to even cause DD any pain to killing him in a few panels. It was talked about in the comic that Superman has to let go and be willing to kill in order to win. This again, is beyond a 5x increase.

Superman and CM are equals on normal terms (before the upgrades). You have no proof that all writers view Superman and CM as equals (especially the writers than wrote OWAW and DOS). You are just speculating without proof. Also, writer's opinions on who is stronger don't count here anyway. We go by on panel evidence. If you ignore on panel evidence in favor of things that are not allowed then you are breaking forum rules and will be reported.

Originally posted by JBL
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v513/marshal99/comics/strength.jpg

Calculate your way out of this. So all that BS crap and calculations you dreamed up one night is thrown out the window with the pot of piss you just posted.

1. That's pre crisis and doesn't count. You can get warned for this.

2. I already gave proof that Superman subconsciously holds back (he needs to meditate or be under dire circumstances to break free of those mental blocks). Take that as a retcon if you want. Releasing the blocks gives him 5x or more increase.


3. Superman has gotten several upgrades in his power over his recent post crisis years. CM wasn't stated to get any upgrades at all (other than Billy becoming the wizard Shazam). So even if they started even in the past, then without the retcon, Superman is still several times more powerful due to the upgrades alone. The upgrades plus the retcon makes Superman significantly stronger than CM.

Originally posted by JBL
He wants DC characters to have his make believe mental blocks or 5x strength increasing dreams and Marvel characters are looking on crying...... in his dreams..... Why do you think he picked the number 5x for supermans strength increase??.....ANSWER.... Because Kurse gained 4.

I randomly picked 5x. It had nothing to do with Kurse. I was estimating. In your opinion what is the strength increase of an individual that goes from fighting something for hours with little progress to one shotting them in a fraction of a second like fodder? Or fighting someone for hours and not causing them any pain to killing them in mere moments?


Also, I don't view Superman as equals to Thor in strength. I view Superman as many times stronger than Thor. So again, the 5x has nothing to do with Kurse.

using a select few showings, wherein superman steps WAY out of character and becomes as strong as the plot needs him to be, is a silly line of 'logic'. we use *average* showings to gauge characters here--not 2 or 3 cherry-picked feats. pretty much any character you can name has stepped WELL beyond their 'normal' tier at *some* point--doesn't mean these random high showings become their average level, though. this is day one stuff, tbh. srsly

that being said: superman and shazam have ALWAYS been portrayed as near-equals EVERY time they've battled on panel. hell, on more than one occasion shazam has been able to gain the ever-so-slight advantage, because supes is vulnerable to his magic. where strength alone is concerned, however, they are all but identical. the writer intent is absolutely irrefutable.

Originally posted by Peter Parker
It does not matter, EVERY writer has them as equals and NOT ONE WRITER has changed it even to this day. H1A8s BS crap about mental blocks is just that, BS. Superman mental blocks are there because he had to practice MENTALLY holding back so that he did not have to constantly monitor himself when around or fighting WEAKER characters. That's what batman was talking about. Superman does not gain 5x his strength by not holding back or releasing mental blocks. I know its a crossover, but look at when marvel and DC had hulk and superman fighting when something was buzzing around hulk ear controlling him, hulk was getting angry and was about to overpower superman and Marvel made it clear that hulk was getting stronger by the second, Do you think DC is NOT going to showcase superman in the face of a rival company if superman could stop holding back or drop his BS mental blocks to compete???? What do they do? They make him sun-amp. That's the ONLY way he can get stronger. His strength is set in stone, thats why oh smart ass braniac said that superman would not normally be able to push warworld. He had to sun-amp. He even stated himself that he did not have to worry about holding back against BA because he knew BA would have beaten his ass if he did. If superman wants to stop holding back, then so will his peers and keep it equal, but not one of them is getting any stronger unless you are the hulk.

Typical of LBJ to screw up and then go on a rant to cover his ass. You posted a Pre-CRISIS scan because you're clueless.

Just because you think Superman has never been written as superior doesn't prove anything. Superman has stalemated Captain Marvel despite fighting several times overnight, having had some of his energy drained, and being effected by Kryptonite to an unknown but increasing degree since he started fighting. He even caught Cap's punch.

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Superman%20VS--/Heroes/Captain%20Marvel/S-B%204/th_SUPERMAN-BATMAN4-PG19.jpg

And your refusal to accept Superman's dynamic strength doesn't mean you're right. You bringing-up Warworld is a strawman. He does indeed get stronger, but two facts about you mean you're going to deny it.

And your interpretation of a Pre-CRISIS crossover that's even more non-canon due to those DC/Marvel crossovers taking place on a separate, shared Earth further proves your desperation, Pete.

Originally posted by Galan007
that being said: superman and shazam have ALWAYS been portrayed as near-equals EVERY time they've battled on panel. hell, on more than one occasion shazam has been able to gain the ever-so-slight advantage, because supes is vulnerable to his magic. where strength alone is concerned, however, they are all but identical. the writer intent is absolutely irrefutable.
Superman holds back a lot when fighting other heroes. CM, AT BEST, is Wonder Woman level (and even then she gets the majority over him), not Superman.

Originally posted by Galan007
using a select few showings, wherein superman steps WAY out of character and becomes as strong as the plot needs him to be, is a silly line of 'logic'. we use *average* showings to gauge characters here--not 2 or 3 cherry-picked feats. pretty much any character you can name has stepped WELL beyond their 'normal' tier at *some* point--doesn't mean these random high showings become their average level, though. this is day one stuff, tbh. srsly

that being said: superman and shazam have ALWAYS been portrayed as near-equals EVERY time they've battled on panel. hell, on more than one occasion shazam has been able to gain the ever-so-slight advantage, because supes is vulnerable to his magic. where strength alone is concerned, however, they are all but identical. the writer intent is absolutely irrefutable.

No one is cherry picking events. It has been retcon that Superman SUBCONSCIOUSLY holds back and that it takes either dire circumstances or extreme meditation to overcome his subconsciousness. Most other heros hold back consciously. It took meditation and hypnosis to get Superman well beyond in OWAW arc.

If you read the beginning of the discussion you would see that we are not talking about Superman's everyday strength (average strength) here but his extreme strength when he drops his mental blocks. So your silly comment about we use "average" showings is not only irrelevant BUT FALSE. Everyone and their momma uses high end feats to argue a character here. Champion with PG planet feat. Carver with his insane Hulk feats, Abhi with his insane Superman feats, Rage with his insane Loki and Thor feats, Vince with his insance Surfer feats, Mr. Master with his Beyonder insane feats, etc. Plus we have the Full Capacity Rule.

Superman average shown strength is not his maximum strength (because he is holding back). His average showings doesn't have him show a limit. That's like saying that since Superman lifts cars for the most part without effort then his average strength on a forum is car lifting strength, when we know he can lift mountains and greater if he wanted to. Plus we have the Full Capacity Rule.

No character in comics have went from not being able to hurt someone with physical strength to killing them with physical strength in mere moments SOLELY because they released mental blocks. No character in comics have went from fighting something for hours with little progress to one shotting them with ease SOLELY because they released mental blocks. I challenge you to find ample examples of a character doing that in the same story arc.

Also, Superman has gotten upgrades over the years. CM wasn't never stated to get any upgrades in power. It would be silly to say that CM is still equals to Superman. Otherwise, we have Pandoras box. Everyone that has an upgrade is irrelevant as they still remain relevative the same as everyone else. This is stupid.

With that said, CM isn't going to hit Kurse with all his might UNTIL he's sees that he can take it. CM will use his speed and flight to fight Kurse.
So Kurse loses this fight with little difficulty. A bfr is a simple win, whenever CM wants to employ that.

Originally posted by h1a8
Also, Superman has gotten upgrades over the years. CM wasn't never stated to get any upgrades in power. It would be silly to say that CM is still equals to Superman. Otherwise, we have Pandoras box. Everyone that has an upgrade is irrelevant as they still remain relevative the same as everyone else. This is stupid.

Actually Captain Marvel did have at least one power-up. When the 7 Deadly Sins were free and Ibis trapped them back, that gave Billy and the others a boost because Shazam had been using some of his power to contain the Sins, and what Ibis did freed that power for Shazam. Allegedly he had an amp after WAR OF THE GODS and the Greek and Roman pantheons merged back together, but I don't know if this is true, a rumor, speculation, what. But Superman's had power-ups since the confirmed one I'm aware for Billy(WAR OF THE GODS happened before POWER OF SHAZAM if t is legit).

It's interesting to note that in an issue of POWER OF SHAZAM, Captain Marvel specifically states he's using the strength of Atlas as well as Hercules, implying he's making himself stronger than normal, to match Superman in arm wrestling, before Superman's Mongul II training and other instances.

NO BFR.

Originally posted by h1a8
I randomly picked 5x. It had nothing to do with Kurse. I was estimating. In your opinion what is the strength increase of an individual that goes from fighting something for hours with little progress to one shotting them in a fraction of a second like fodder? Or fighting someone for hours and not causing them any pain to killing them in mere moments?


Also, I don't view Superman as equals to Thor in strength. I view Superman as many times stronger than Thor. So again, the 5x has nothing to do with Kurse.

So superman fought for hours before deciding to stop holding back? does this sound right?

Originally posted by Raisen
So superman fought for hours before deciding to stop holding back? does this sound right?

Mental blocks.

Originally posted by Delta1938
Mental blocks.

this is commonly accepted amongst super fans?

Originally posted by Raisen
this is commonly accepted amongst super fans?

It's not him just "holding back." He's subconsciously suppressing his powers, despite what the Superman detractors say. But this is going off-topic. Would you like me to show you in a PM?

Originally posted by Raisen
So superman fought for hours before deciding to stop holding back? does this sound right? No, it was retcon that Superman can't help it, even if he tried. Even if he thinks he is using all of his strength, he is not. His subconscious doesn't let him. He has to go through dire circumstances (Someone he really loves endangered of dying or he himself endangered of dying) or has to meditate (self hypnotize) to overcome his subconscious blocks.

It was clearly explained in the OWAW arc. That's why Mongul II had to train him.

CM wins due to speed and lightning attacks.
Depending on the battlefield, iron would also be an advantage.

Billy gets crushed.

Someone as versatile and smart as CM shouldn't lose to Kurse, not unless the initial punchout kills him.

Originally posted by zopzop
Superman holds back a lot when fighting other heroes. if it wasn't stated that superman was holding back against shazam specifically(and it wasn't), then he wasn't holding back. idgaf about any of his fights with other heroes.

the point is that supes and shazam have had SEVERAL battles over the years, and have always been portrayed as near-equals. ALWAYS. using cherry-picked scenes from other, non-related comics doesn't change the writers' clear intent regarding where shazam stacks up in relation to supes. i refuse to ignore the actual on-panel battles between said characters, in favor of half-ass attempts at 'dot-connecting'.

they're peers. irrefutable.

Originally posted by Delta1938
Typical of LBJ to screw up and then go on a rant to cover his ass. You posted a Pre-CRISIS scan because you're clueless.

Just because you think Superman has never been written as superior doesn't prove anything. Superman has stalemated Captain Marvel despite fighting several times overnight, having had some of his energy drained, and being effected by Kryptonite to an unknown but increasing degree since he started fighting. He even caught Cap's punch.

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Superman%20VS--/Heroes/Captain%20Marvel/S-B%204/th_SUPERMAN-BATMAN4-PG19.jpg

And your refusal to accept Superman's dynamic strength doesn't mean you're right. You bringing-up Warworld is a strawman. He does indeed get stronger, but two facts about you mean you're going to deny it.

And your interpretation of a Pre-CRISIS crossover that's even more non-canon due to those DC/Marvel crossovers taking place on a separate, shared Earth further proves your desperation, Pete. Superman does not have dynamic strength. End of story. Even his many writers know this, why would every writer state that CM and superman are equal in strength if they thought superman had dynamic strength?? Why would they state other characters are stronger than superman if superman had dynamic strength?? Why would they have him fighting BA or CM as equals if they thought he had dynamic strength??? You think superman can really talk in the comic??? The writers put those words in his mouth. Superman is not that much stronger than WW. Get over it once and for all.

Originally posted by h1a8
No, it was retcon that Superman can't help it, even if he tried. Even if he thinks he is using all of his strength, he is not. His subconscious doesn't let him. He has to go through dire circumstances (Someone he really loves endangered of dying or he himself endangered of dying) or has to meditate (self hypnotize) to overcome his subconscious blocks.

It was clearly explained in the OWAW arc. That's why Mongul II had to train him. A flat out lie. How the hell does he access the added strength when he sun-amps then? Every writer that has ever written superman has had him use everything he's got. How on earth you are allowed to spew this BS is beyond reasoning.

Originally posted by Galan007
if it wasn't stated that superman was holding back against shazam specifically(and it wasn't), then he wasn't holding back. idgaf about any of his fights with other heroes.

the point is that supes and shazam have had SEVERAL battles over the years, and have always been portrayed as near-equals. ALWAYS. using cherry-picked scenes from other, non-related comics doesn't change the writers' clear intent regarding where shazam stacks up in relation to supes. i refuse to ignore the actual on-panel battles between said characters, in favor of half-ass attempts at 'dot-connecting'.

they're peers. irrefutable.
Peers, yes. Identical in strength? No. Otherwise Cap would've won this bout amping his strength.

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/th_capsupesarm2a.jpg http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/th_capsupesarm2b.jpg http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/th_capsupesarm2c.jpg

Or Superman able to restrain Blaze under the same writer while weakened who had her choke Black Adam with one hand.

Originally posted by abhilegend
There are several examples like that. A weakened Superman restrains Blaze while she chokes Black Adam with one hand.

Here he is weakened.

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/Supermanv2071-17.jpg

Restrains Blaze nonetheless.

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/AOS494PHYSICALLYRESTRAINSALORDOFHELL.jpg

While she was strong enough to manhandle Adam with one hand.

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/DC%20COMICS/SUPERMAN/Strength/POS-012-18.jpg

The best thing about these showings? They are written by the same writer Jerry Ordway who was the primary writer of Power Of Shazam series.

Originally posted by JBL
Superman does not have dynamic strength. End of story. Even his many writers know this, why would every writer state that CM and superman are equal in strength if they thought superman had dynamic strength?? Why would they state other characters are stronger than superman if superman had dynamic strength?? Why would they have him fighting BA or CM as equals if they thought he had dynamic strength??? You think superman can really talk in the comic??? The writers put those words in his mouth. Superman is not that much stronger than WW. Get over it once and for all.
Yeah and there are instances where Superman is stated to be the strongest being on earth. But since you're so adamant about superman having no mental blocks, here is Kismet showing what would happen if Superman lets go of his inhibitions.

http://s764.photobucket.com/albums/xx281/panthergodII/Superman/1991%20Red%20Glass%20-%20All%20Out%20precedent/03%20Action%20Comics%20666/1992a%20Sept%20-%20Adventures%20494/?action=view&current=AdventuresOfSuperman494p17.jpg
http://s764.photobucket.com/albums/xx281/panthergodII/Superman/1991%20Red%20Glass%20-%20All%20Out%20precedent/03%20Action%20Comics%20666/1992a%20Sept%20-%20Adventures%20494/?action=view&current=AdventuresOfSuperman494p18.jpg
http://s764.photobucket.com/albums/xx281/panthergodII/Superman/1991%20Red%20Glass%20-%20All%20Out%20precedent/03%20Action%20Comics%20666/1992a%20Sept%20-%20Adventures%20494/?action=view&current=AdventuresOfSuperman494p19.jpg
http://s764.photobucket.com/albums/xx281/panthergodII/Superman/1991%20Red%20Glass%20-%20All%20Out%20precedent/03%20Action%20Comics%20666/1992a%20Sept%20-%20Adventures%20494/?action=view&current=AdventuresOfSuperman494p20.jpg

He KILLED Captain Marvel alongside people like Diana, Wally, Hal, Supergirl.

Originally posted by Galan007
if it wasn't stated that superman was holding back against shazam specifically(and it wasn't), then he wasn't holding back. idgaf about any of his fights with other heroes.

the point is that supes and shazam have had SEVERAL battles over the years, and have always been portrayed as near-equals. ALWAYS. using cherry-picked scenes from other, non-related comics doesn't change the writers' clear intent regarding where shazam stacks up in relation to supes. i refuse to ignore the actual on-panel battles between said characters, in favor of half-ass attempts at 'dot-connecting'.

they're peers. irrefutable.

You know what the hell a retcon is. Stop being stupid. Then using, silly ass words like, "they're peers. irrefutable" shows you are playing a con game.
It doesn't matter what writer intent was as
1. It was retcon that Superman holds back subconsciously and was explained clear as day in the OWAW arc. That means he can't overcome mental blocks without proper meditation or extreme circumstances.
2. Superman has gotten upgrades over the years. Do other characters automatically get upgraded too to stay in relation to Superman without being explicitly stated to?

Retcon>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>writer's intent from earlier comic. You beat me and others on an argument before using that reasoning.
HOTM was a retcon, despite Savage Hulk fighting all those peers of his and appearing as equals.

Originally posted by JBL
A flat out lie. How the hell does he access the added strength when he sun-amps then? Every writer that has ever written superman has had him use everything he's got. How on earth you are allowed to spew this BS is beyond reasoning.

Sun dipping gives him strength he can never achieve, even with the mental blocks being off. Think of planetary power vs. thousands of galaxies of power.
So basically, you are saying that the OWAW arc doesn't count?

Originally posted by JBL
Superman does not have dynamic strength. End of story. Even his many writers know this, why would every writer state that CM and superman are equal in strength if they thought superman had dynamic strength?? Why would they state other characters are stronger than superman if superman had dynamic strength?? Why would they have him fighting BA or CM as equals if they thought he had dynamic strength??? You think superman can really talk in the comic??? The writers put those words in his mouth. Superman is not that much stronger than WW. Get over it once and for all.

Reported for lying. Every writer didnt state Superman and CM were peers. Certainly not the OWAW writer and certainly not the DOS writer and certainly not the ones who stated Superman is the most powerful being on the Earth. Retcon>>>>>>>>earlier instances. Superman holding back subconsciously and fighting someone as equals PROVES Superman is their superior. This is common sense.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Peers, yes. Identical in strength? No. Otherwise Cap would've won this bout amping his strength.

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/th_capsupesarm2a.jpg http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/th_capsupesarm2b.jpg http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/th_capsupesarm2c.jpg

Or Superman able to restrain Blaze under the same writer while weakened who had her choke Black Adam with one hand.




Yeah and there are instances where Superman is stated to be the strongest being on earth. But since you're so adamant about superman having no mental blocks, here is Kismet showing what would happen if Superman lets go of his inhibitions.

http://s764.photobucket.com/albums/xx281/panthergodII/Superman/1991%20Red%20Glass%20-%20All%20Out%20precedent/03%20Action%20Comics%20666/1992a%20Sept%20-%20Adventures%20494/?action=view&current=AdventuresOfSuperman494p17.jpg
http://s764.photobucket.com/albums/xx281/panthergodII/Superman/1991%20Red%20Glass%20-%20All%20Out%20precedent/03%20Action%20Comics%20666/1992a%20Sept%20-%20Adventures%20494/?action=view&current=AdventuresOfSuperman494p18.jpg
http://s764.photobucket.com/albums/xx281/panthergodII/Superman/1991%20Red%20Glass%20-%20All%20Out%20precedent/03%20Action%20Comics%20666/1992a%20Sept%20-%20Adventures%20494/?action=view&current=AdventuresOfSuperman494p19.jpg
http://s764.photobucket.com/albums/xx281/panthergodII/Superman/1991%20Red%20Glass%20-%20All%20Out%20precedent/03%20Action%20Comics%20666/1992a%20Sept%20-%20Adventures%20494/?action=view&current=AdventuresOfSuperman494p20.jpg

He KILLED Captain Marvel alongside people like Diana, Wally, Hal, Supergirl.

Just because you are equal in strength does not mean you could not kill each other.

Originally posted by h1a8
You know what the hell a retcon is. Stop being stupid. Then using, silly ass words like, "they're peers. irrefutable" shows you are playing a con game.
It doesn't matter what writer intent was as
1. It was retcon that Superman holds back subconsciously and was explained clear as day in the OWAW arc. That means he can't overcome mental blocks without proper meditation or extreme circumstances.
2. Superman has gotten upgrades over the years. Do other characters automatically get upgraded too to stay in relation to Superman without being explicitly stated to?

Retcon>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>writer's intent from earlier comic. You beat me and others on an argument before using that reasoning.
HOTM was a retcon, despite Savage Hulk fighting all those peers of his and appearing as equals.



Sun dipping gives him strength he can never achieve, even with the mental blocks being off. Think of planetary power vs. thousands of galaxies of power.
So basically, you are saying that the OWAW arc doesn't count?



Reported for lying. Every writer didnt state Superman and CM were peers. Certainly not the OWAW writer and certainly not the DOS writer and certainly not the ones who stated Superman is the most powerful being on the Earth. Retcon>>>>>>>>earlier instances. Superman holding back subconsciously and fighting someone as equals PROVES Superman is their superior. This is common sense. Reported for lying about 5x strength increases, Reported for lying about 50 earth weights, reported for lying calculations, reported for lying about superman not being able to access his full strength, reported for lying about him throwing thousands of earth destroying punches, reported for lying about him fighting at lightspeed ETC.

Originally posted by JBL
Just because you are equal in strength does not mean you could not kill each other.
Alongside a team consisting of Hal, Diana, Wally and Supergirl simultaneously? No, he wouldn't.Originally posted by JBL
Reported for lying about 5x strength increases, Reported for lying about 50 earth weights, reported for lying calculations, reported for lying about superman not being able to access his full strength, reported for lying about him throwing thousands of earth destroying punches, reported for lying about him fighting at lightspeed ETC.
Dat salt.

Originally posted by Galan007
if it wasn't stated that superman was holding back against shazam specifically(and it wasn't), then he wasn't holding back. idgaf about any of his fights with other heroes.

the point is that supes and shazam have had SEVERAL battles over the years, and have always been portrayed as near-equals. ALWAYS. using cherry-picked scenes from other, non-related comics doesn't change the writers' clear intent regarding where shazam stacks up in relation to supes. i refuse to ignore the actual on-panel battles between said characters, in favor of half-ass attempts at 'dot-connecting'.

they're peers. irrefutable.

Just report him and end it (H1).

Originally posted by carver9
Just report him and end it (H1).

This was my reply to Galan's post you just quoted.

You know what the hell a retcon is. Stop being stupid. Then using, silly ass words like, "they're peers. irrefutable" shows you are playing a con game.
It doesn't matter what writer intent was as
1. It was retcon that Superman holds back subconsciously and was explained clear as day in the OWAW arc. That means he can't overcome mental blocks without proper meditation or extreme circumstances.
2. Superman has gotten upgrades over the years. Do other characters automatically get upgraded too to stay in relation to Superman without being explicitly stated to?

Retcon>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>writer's intent from earlier comic. You beat me and others on an argument before using that reasoning.
HOTM was a retcon, despite Savage Hulk fighting all those peers of his and appearing as equals.

In other words, what happens on panel>>>>>>>>anything else (including a different writer's intentions).

Originally posted by h1a8
This was my reply to Galan's post you just quoted.

You know what the hell a retcon is. Stop being stupid. Then using, silly ass words like, "they're peers. irrefutable" shows you are playing a con game.
It doesn't matter what writer intent was as
1. It was retcon that Superman holds back subconsciously and was explained clear as day in the OWAW arc. That means he can't overcome mental blocks without proper meditation or extreme circumstances.
2. Superman has gotten upgrades over the years. Do other characters automatically get upgraded too to stay in relation to Superman without being explicitly stated to?

Retcon>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>writer's intent from earlier comic. You beat me and others on an argument before using that reasoning.
HOTM was a retcon, despite Savage Hulk fighting all those peers of his and appearing as equals.

In other words, what happens on panel>>>>>>>>anything else (including a different writer's intentions). You say mongul jr taught superman how to drop his BS mental blocks??

REALLY DUDE??

Superman wasn't able to take on Imperiex in his current state either, and allowed Mongul Jr. to train him to fight more efficiently in outer space, and to use his own powers effectively. When they were ready, they decided to confront Imperiex somewhere near Saturn. Superman and Mongul Jr. managed to destroy Imperiex's construct (which was used to "hollow" galaxies) and believed that they had stopped Imperiex.


In other words, mongul jr taught superman how to fight better and far more efficiently using his abilities better. Its just like a rookie boxer getting trained by a skilled trainer to be more effective with the powers and skill he has. Sorry. those probes are next dude.

Originally posted by JBL
You say mongul jr taught superman how to drop his BS mental blocks??

REALLY DUDE??

Superman wasn't able to take on Imperiex in his current state either, and allowed Mongul Jr. to train him to fight more efficiently in outer space, and to use his own powers effectively. When they were ready, they decided to confront Imperiex somewhere near Saturn. Superman and Mongul Jr. managed to destroy Imperiex's construct (which was used to "hollow" galaxies) and believed that they had stopped Imperiex.


In other words, mongul jr taught superman how to fight better and far more efficiently using his abilities better. Its just like a rookie boxer getting trained by a skilled trainer to be more effective with the powers and skill he has. Sorry. those probes are next dude.

So you didn't read the parts discussing Superman's mental blocks of holding his power back and his meditation to overcome them? You didn't read the part where Superman goes from fighting probes for hours and not doing much to them to one shotting them like fodder. Superman was shown fighting more effectively before the training (using his powers simultaneously and not doing much of anything). After the training, Superman is one shotting them right and left with single physical attacks.

Then we have the DOS arc.
How do you explain how Superman went from not being able to even cause DD pain to killing him in mere moments AFTER Lois convinced him that the only way to win is to let go and be willing to kill? Superman knows that if he doesn't then everyone, including Lois, will die. Then prior to this, Superman thought that he was already using his full might against DD. But that was his conscious might hindered by his subconscious.
That's like Thor going from not being able to cause Juggernaut pain to literally killing him in a few panels. Shit like that don't happen unless a insane power increase happens.

Also we have on panel evidence supporting that Superman's power level is dependent on his belief. In one comic, he had anmesia and didn't know he had powers. In that comic, his belief affected his powers to the level where he was actually powerless (able to easily get hurt, etc.). Byrne stated that Superman's powers are part psionic and based off his will.

Finally, we have Superman with explicitly stated upgrades to his power (the comics explicitly states Superman has gotten much stronger). So CM staying the same can't possibly be his physical equal.

Originally posted by h1a8
So you didn't read the parts discussing Superman's mental blocks of holding his power back and his meditation to overcome them? You didn't read the part where Superman goes from fighting probes for hours and not doing much to them to one shotting them like fodder. Superman was shown fighting more effectively before the training (using his powers simultaneously and not doing much of anything). After the training, Superman is one shotting them right and left with single physical attacks.

Then we have the DOS arc.
How do you explain how Superman went from not being able to even cause DD pain to killing him in mere moments AFTER Lois convinced him that the only way to win is to let go and be willing to kill? Superman knows that if he doesn't then everyone, including Lois, will die. Then prior to this, Superman thought that he was already using his full might against DD. But that was his conscious might hindered by his subconscious.
That's like Thor going from not being able to cause Juggernaut pain to literally killing him in a few panels. Shit like that don't happen unless a insane power increase happens.

Also we have on panel evidence supporting that Superman's power level is dependent on his belief. In one comic, he had anmesia and didn't know he had powers. In that comic, his belief affected his powers to the level where he was actually powerless (able to easily get hurt, etc.). Byrne stated that Superman's powers are part psionic and based off his will.

Finally, we have Superman with explicitly stated upgrades to his power (the comics explicitly states Superman has gotten much stronger). So CM staying the same can't possibly be his physical equal.

It surprises me to see that you get so much correct, but then drop the ball on how Captain Marvel is stronger than Kurse? Captain Marvel, and Black Adam are most certainly in Gladiator, Thor, Beta Ray Bill, Blue Marvel, and many others level in terms of power, and strength. Kurse is above this level, and was created to be nearly invulnerable. CM, is not going to be hitting Kurse with greater force than Beta Ray Bill hits while using his hammer. Kurse was pretty much unaffected by these types of assaults. Like I said in the beginning, I don't understand how you are able to get so many things correct, but then turn around, and drop the ball concerning Kurse.

Originally posted by JBL
Superman does not have dynamic strength. End of story. Even his many writers know this, why would every writer state that CM and superman are equal in strength if they thought superman had dynamic strength?? Why would they state other characters are stronger than superman if superman had dynamic strength?? Why would they have him fighting BA or CM as equals if they thought he had dynamic strength??? You think superman can really talk in the comic??? The writers put those words in his mouth. Superman is not that much stronger than WW. Get over it once and for all.

Ya know what? You're so confident New Earth Superman doesn't have dynamic powers, put your money where your mouth is. Let's battlezone it. Loser gets banned for a month

Originally posted by Stoic
It surprises me to see that you get so much correct, but then drop the ball on how Captain Marvel is stronger than Kurse? Captain Marvel, and Black Adam are most certainly in Gladiator, Thor, Beta Ray Bill, Blue Marvel, and many others level in terms of power, and strength. Kurse is above this level, and was created to be nearly invulnerable. CM, is not going to be hitting Kurse with greater force than Beta Ray Bill hits while using his hammer. Kurse was pretty much unaffected by these types of assaults. Like I said in the beginning, I don't understand how you are able to get so many things correct, but then turn around, and drop the ball concerning Kurse.


I believe CM is stronger than Thor or BRB. Now, assuming he isn't, CM can still affect Kurse. When Kurse was twice as strong as Thor, Kurse had the upper hand and Thor barely affected him (thor still affected him). When Thor put on the belt of strength then Thor affected him much more and had the upper hand. The physics THAT writer portrayed was that someone twice as strong can not be very much affected by the weaker. His form of physics contradict the history of comics and real life. There are literally thousands of showings where weakers affect strongers (twice or more as strong) all the time. Thing affecting Hulk, Cap affecting everyone, Spidey affecting almost everyone, Iron Man, Batman, Aquaman, etc. A 10 year child can bring pain to an adult man in many ways.

So for Thor to double his strength as a means to affect Kurse greatly implies the type of physics that writer was using (faulty). Thus the showing can be combated with:
1. Thor has affected greater beings
2. Someone twice as strong as Thor or more could affect Kurse
3. Thousands of showings displaying that weakers can affect strongers.

With that said, since CM can indeed affect Kurse but is insanely faster then CM wins over Kurse with relative ease.

Originally posted by Stoic
It surprises me to see that you get so much correct, but then drop the ball on how Captain Marvel is stronger than Kurse? Captain Marvel, and Black Adam are most certainly in Gladiator, Thor, Beta Ray Bill, Blue Marvel, and many others level in terms of power, and strength. Kurse is above this level, and was created to be nearly invulnerable. CM, is not going to be hitting Kurse with greater force than Beta Ray Bill hits while using his hammer. Kurse was pretty much unaffected by these types of assaults. Like I said in the beginning, I don't understand how you are able to get so many things correct, but then turn around, and drop the ball concerning Kurse.

He gets so much correct? Like what?

Originally posted by h1a8
Stop trolling. I mean it. I already gave undeniable proof that Superman is at least several times stronger when he SUBCONSCIOUSLY stop holding back.
We have where Superman going from not being able to hurt DD (using all of his conscious might) to killing DD in a few panels (when he released his mental blocks). This is beyond a 5x increase.

We have batman outright stating Superman has mental blocks that makes him subconsciously hold back when members of the JL thought Supergirl was stronger. Meaning, Superman doesn't know he's holding back at times or can't consciously prevent it at times.

We have OWAW where it explicitly states and shows Superman subconsciously holding back and Superman having to be trained through meditation and hypnotize himself to release those mental blocks to be on a insane level he never reached. He went from fighting probes for hours to one shotting them like fodder. This is more than a 5x increase.

We have Superman increasing his power over the years (he got several amps) after he an CM fought evenly before. He has gotten at least 3x more powerful over the years. From mountain moving to planet lifting.

Lastly, you are an idiot.
Why do you even post when you don't ever debate. All you do is enemy D.C. characters. Strength doesn't win forum fights idiot. Whose stronger has absolutely nothing to do with the winner when two characters have different power sets. CM is faster and can't be touched if he doesn't want to be. Kurse has no super speed. CM has flight and can bfr Kurse to outer space at any time in the fight. This alone proves that idiots only see strength.

P.S. if two beings are holding back and appear to be equals, that doesn't mean they are equal. One can be holding back much more than the other. For example, CM could be twice as strong when he stops holding back and Superman 5x as strong. CM never ever showed a 5x or more
in strength when he stop holding back.

This is like the first time I've ever seen H1 get pissed.

Originally posted by h1a8
You know what the hell a retcon is. Stop being stupid. Then using, silly ass words like, "they're peers. irrefutable" shows you are playing a con game.
It doesn't matter what writer intent was as
1. It was retcon that Superman holds back subconsciously and was explained clear as day in the OWAW arc. That means he can't overcome mental blocks without proper meditation or extreme circumstances.
2. Superman has gotten upgrades over the years. Do other characters automatically get upgraded too to stay in relation to Superman without being explicitly stated to?

Retcon>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>writer's intent from earlier comic. You beat me and others on an argument before using that reasoning.
HOTM was a retcon, despite Savage Hulk fighting all those peers of his and appearing as equals. more recent comics than OWAW have superman outright stating that shazam holds the advantage over him, toe-to-toe. i suggest actually *reading* the pertinent comics before throwing a bash-filled tantrum...especially when i wasn't even responding to you in the first place.

and on that note, reported for bashing.

Originally posted by Galan007
more recent comics than OWAW have superman outright stating that shazam holds the advantage over him, toe-to-toe. i suggest actually *reading* the pertinent comics before throwing a bash-filled tantrum.

and on that note, reported for bashing.

You mean SUPERMAN/BATMAN #4?

Originally posted by abhilegend
Peers, yes. Identical in strength? No. Otherwise Cap would've won this bout amping his strength.

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/th_capsupesarm2a.jpg http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/th_capsupesarm2b.jpg http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/th_capsupesarm2c.jpg you and i both know that ANY time they've met or battled on panel, they are ALWAYS treated as near-equals. hell, in S/B #4 superman himself stated that shazam holds the advantage over him toe-to-toe, thanks to his magical nature.

anywho, i really don't care if people claim that superman is *marginally* more powerful than shazam--but acting like the difference between them equates to many orders of magnitude is an outright lie that directly contradicts on panel happenings. they're peers. always have been.

Originally posted by Delta1938
Ya know what? You're so confident New Earth Superman doesn't have dynamic powers, put your money where your mouth is. Let's battlezone it. Loser gets banned for a month

lol gawd, how i'd love to see that happen....he'll never except your challenge in a million years though. he'd lose for certain and being banned for a month=no anti-superman hate for a month. he couldn't stand it.

Originally posted by Galan007
they're peers. always have been.

i haven't read any of this aside from the last couple posts but....how in all the blue hells can anyone possibly think any different after all these years.....?

Originally posted by leonidas
lol gawd, how i'd love to see that happen....he'll never except your challenge in a million years though. he'd lose for certain and being banned for a month=no anti-superman hate for a month. he couldn't stand it.


If he does, I'll be sure to PM you before it starts.

Originally posted by leonidas
i haven't read any of this aside from the last couple posts but....how in all the blue hells can anyone possibly think any different after all these years.....?

Stuff people don't take into account.

Looser should get a pineapple in the @ss

http://galleries.guildlaunch.net/285398/little-nicky-hitler-scene-o9895Pop.gif

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
Looser should get a pineapple in the @ss

http://galleries.guildlaunch.net/285398/little-nicky-hitler-scene-o9895Pop.gif

JBL is probably already in a french maid outfit.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
Looser should get a pineapple in the @ss

http://galleries.guildlaunch.net/285398/little-nicky-hitler-scene-o9895Pop.gif


JBL will lose on purpose because the idea of such a large object shoved up his anus makes him cum just thinking about it.

Kurse 9/10

Originally posted by Galan007
more recent comics than OWAW have superman outright stating that shazam holds the advantage over him, toe-to-toe. i suggest actually *reading* the pertinent comics before throwing a bash-filled tantrum...especially when i wasn't even responding to you in the first place.

and on that note, reported for bashing. shazam has Superman's vulnerability in magic. That's why they are closer than it would normally be. We are arguing strength here. You are changing the subject.
Characters statements are meaningless if in contradiction to what is shown. But if magic was the reason why Superman said this (I think I remember that comic) then it is irrelevant to what's being discussed.

In summary, we are gauging CM's strength through Superman in order to find where he stands against Kurse. Arguing that CM and Superman are peers because of magic vulnerability is irrelevant to that discussion. We are arguing strength only.

Originally posted by Galan007
you and i both know that ANY time they've met or battled on panel, they are ALWAYS treated as near-equals. hell, in S/B #4 superman himself stated that shazam holds the advantage over him toe-to-toe, thanks to his magical nature.

anywho, i really don't care if people claim that superman is *marginally* more powerful than shazam--but acting like the difference between them equates to many orders of magnitude is an outright lie that directly contradicts on panel happenings. they're peers. always have been. also superman comments and their battles are based on Superman subconsciously holding back. So under these circumstances then yes they are peers (although Superman is still superior). But without the mental blocks Superman is leagues above CM

In FC Superman asked Billy to help him lift the infinity book. They are quals, though if Superman cuts loose he should be above him, like he was in OWAW.

Originally posted by h1a8
shazam has Superman's vulnerability in magic. That's why they are closer than it would normally be. We are arguing strength here. You are changing the subject.
Characters statements are meaningless if in contradiction to what is shown. But if magic was the reason why Superman said this (I think I remember that comic) then it is irrelevant to what's being discussed.

In summary, we are gauging CM's strength through Superman in order to find where he stands against Kurse. Arguing that CM and Superman are peers because of magic vulnerability is irrelevant to that discussion. We are arguing strength only. they ARE peers in strength. always have been. shazam's magical quality is simply what can give him the *advantage* one-on-one. also, no contradiction between superman and shazam has EVER been shown. they have ALWAYS been depicted as near-equals, with any sort of difference between them being marginal at best. the writers' intent couldn't be clearer.

but yeah, continue ignoring the actual on-panel showings between the characters in question. that always works out well.

Originally posted by Galan007
they ARE peers in strength. always have been. shazam's magical quality is simply what can give him the *advantage* one-on-one. also, no contradiction between superman and shazam has EVER been shown. they have ALWAYS been depicted as near-equals, with any sort of difference between them being marginal at best. the writers' intent couldn't be clearer.

but yeah, continue ignoring the actual on-panel showings between the characters in question. that always works out well.
I'm buyin..

thumbup1


Though I would take Clark 5.5/10 vs Billy gun to my head.

Originally posted by celeyhyga17
I'm buyin..

thumbup1


Though I would take Clark 5.5/10 vs Billy gun to my head.
nothing wrong with that. in fact, i probably would too. i'm referring mainly to those select few posters who are ridiculously claiming that shazam is a dianna-level character who is many orders of magnitude below clark. they've met several times on panel and have ALWAYS been treated as near-equals.

to claim that the intent of DC is the exact opposite of what we've consistently been shown on panel, is just.....well.....f*cking stupid.

Kurse wins.

If BFR is included, he can BFR Kurse, other than that, Billy gets killed.

Originally posted by Galan007
they ARE peers in strength. always have been. shazam's magical quality is simply what can give him the *advantage* one-on-one. also, no contradiction between superman and shazam has EVER been shown. they have ALWAYS been depicted as near-equals, with any sort of difference between them being marginal at best. the writers' intent couldn't be clearer.

but yeah, continue ignoring the actual on-panel showings between the characters in question. that always works out well. they are peers when it comes to normal everyday Superman (holding back subconsciously). How they WERE depicted has nothing to do with the retcon. Superman has gotten upgrades too. The retcon ensures that Superman bypass CM when his mental blocks come off. With them on then they are peers.


But yeah, continue ignoring the actual on-panel retcon about Superman's mental blocks hindering his power greatly. That always works out well.

As far as CM having an advantage over normal Superman, this is false.
what is shown bypasses what is intended by an individual writer. That means Superman is superior to CM. His fighting ability is better, he uses speed more efficiently, he has other powers like freeze breath, hv, wind breath, intangibility, etc. CM magic advantage isn't enough. Now if Normal Everyday Superman fought CM without freeze breath, hv, his extra skill, wind breath, etc. thing CM would have a slight advantage.

Originally posted by Galan007
nothing wrong with that. in fact, i probably would too. i'm referring mainly to those select few posters who are ridiculously claiming that shazam is a dianna-level character who is many orders of magnitude below clark. they've met several times on panel and have ALWAYS been treated as near-equals.

to claim that the intent of DC is the exact opposite of what we've consistently been shown on panel, is just.....well.....f*cking stupid. yes they are peers in normal circumstances. This is clear. But when the mental blocks are off then they aren't.
When they were depicted as equals, the notion of Superman's mental blocks was non existent.

So if they fought in a comic then it would be very close. But if we have DOS mindset or OWAW mindset then it's a different story.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
In FC Superman asked Billy to help him lift the infinity book. They are quals, though if Superman cuts loose he should be above him, like he was in OWAW. that's all I'm saying. In normal circumstances they are near equals.

H1 you don't know what you are talking about. Just stop. Please just stop.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
In FC Superman asked Billy to help him lift the infinity book. They are quals, though if Superman cuts loose he should be above him, like he was in OWAW.

And what if Captain Marvel cut loose? What will happen?

Originally posted by carver9
And what if Captain Marvel cut loose? What will happen? if he were to fight an all-out superman, you mean? they'd still be near-equals, as always. DC has been abundantly clear in that regard.

i don't think h1 grasps the concept that pretty much ANY character in the history of fiction is able to step beyond their normal tier when they decide to 'go for broke'... Especially heroes, as most of them tend to hold back anyway.

Originally posted by carver9
And what if Captain Marvel cut loose? What will happen? he already has. He has no subconscious mental blocks that makes him access less than 20% of his power.

Originally posted by Galan007
if he were to fight an all-out superman, you mean? they'd still be near-equals, as always. DC has been abundantly clear in that regard.

i don't think h1 grasps the concept that pretty much ANY character in the history of fiction is able to step beyond their normal tier when they decide to 'go for broke'... Especially heroes, as most of them tend to hold back anyway. holding back intentionally isn't the same as holding back subconsciously. No character in comic history has increased their might 5x or more by releasing mental blocks. No character has went from not being able to hurt someone to killing them in mere moments with just physical strength.

Your first and second sentence is ignoring on panel evidence of the retcon.
It was writers intentions that many of Hulks villains were peers to him. But HOTM retcon those instances to Hulk holding black GREATLY.

Originally posted by h1a8
he already has. He has no subconscious mental blocks that makes him access less than 20% of his power.

Lol...iirc, He admitted during a fight against a possessed Superman that he holds back, then, lol, Captain Marvel holds back just like any Super hero does...especially against Superman, the guy he consider the greatest hero ever. How about this, prove that he doesn't hold back with a scan. I don't care about your 20% comment. Show me some proof.

Originally posted by Galan007
if he were to fight an all-out superman, you mean? they'd still be near-equals, as always. DC has been abundantly clear in that regard.

i don't think h1 grasps the concept that pretty much ANY character in the history of fiction is able to step beyond their normal tier when they decide to 'go for broke'... Especially heroes, as most of them tend to hold back anyway.

Originally posted by h1a8
No character in comic history has increased their might 5x or more by releasing mental blocks.*cough*berserker rage*cough*

Originally posted by h1a8
Your first and second sentence is ignoring on panel evidence of the retcon. i have not only acknowledged this 'retcon', but i have even cited a superman/shazam battle that took place after it. you're just too obtuse to grasp simplistic concepts at this point--you'd much rather cling to your own fanmade theories/percentages.




i'm done wasting my time. h1 can have the last word that he so desperately craves. i won't even be looking at this thread any further.

Originally posted by Galan007
*cough*berserker rage*cough*

i have not only acknowledged this 'retcon', but i have even cited a superman/shazam battle that took place after it. you're just too obtuse to grasp simplistic concepts at this point--you'd much rather cling to your own fanmade theories/percentages.


why am i wasting my time? berserker rage as in wolverine? So wolverine becomes more than 5x stronger when he enters berserker rage?

No you haven't. The retcon talks about releasing subconscious blocks makes Superman VASTLY more powerful. The scene you are referring to is talking about normal circumstances where Superman's mental blocks would be in play (as the retcon stated).

H1 how are you quantifying it as 5x?

Originally posted by h1a8
berserker rage as in wolverine? So wolverine becomes more than 5x stronger when he enters berserker rage?

No you haven't. The retcon talks about releasing subconscious blocks makes Superman VASTLY more powerful. The scene you are referring to is talking about normal circumstances where Superman's mental blocks would be in play (as the retcon stated).

Wolverine went from losing to Sabertooth and Omega red to, taking on Sabertooth who was backed by Omega Red (Who usually Beats him), Mystique, Wild Child, lets put it like this, he defeated his entire Rogue simultaneously while still not going all out.

Let's move to Hulk. Hulk went from getting his arm broke by Red Hulk, choked to sleep, koed again, to taking Rulk out with a single thunder clap, AFTER tanking everything he dished out, AFTER getting his powers absorbed and added to Rulk own power.

Let's move to Spiderman. Spiderman went from getting his eye snatched out by Morlun to having Morlun tank everything he threw at him. To running from Morlun ending with him one shot killing him.

This list can get big H1. Tremendously big. This crap happens all of the time. Batman took out Amazo, a guy a stomps the JLA. Flash not holding back mud stomping a speed force amped ape that had every advantage on him. You're concept of things is minimum at best. Maybe I need to PM you some comics.

Carvatar state.

Carver is now 5x stronger than before.

lol

i gotta admire the subtle hand that so derailed this thread though. it's like i need a berserker ignore button cuz the normal one is not strong enuff!!1!

on thread, kurse in a standard kmc dome. cm has the speed to stay away from him, but even a blitz isn't ko'ing kurse before a couple shots turn the tide imo. in a book, the wisdom of solomon should allow him to deduce the weakness. if there is sufficient iron around billy could take it. otherwise he gets pulped. like anyone in the thor/herc/sm/supes class would in a straight up fight.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
In FC Superman asked Billy to help him lift the infinity book. They are quals, though if Superman cuts loose he should be above him, like he was in OWAW.

I believe that Captain Marvel was actually an alternate dimensional counter-part to Superman.

Originally posted by Galan007
nothing wrong with that. in fact, i probably would too. i'm referring mainly to those select few posters who are ridiculously claiming that shazam is a dianna-level character who is many orders of magnitude below clark. they've met several times on panel and have ALWAYS been treated as near-equals.

to claim that the intent of DC is the exact opposite of what we've consistently been shown on panel, is just.....well.....f*cking stupid.

The great irony is the exact example you've cited twice does not show them to be equals if you read the story.

^ i never said they were 'equals'. 'near-equals' and/or 'peers' is the terminology i've repeatedly used.

like i said: i've no problem with superman being the stronger of the two, so long as it's understood that the difference between he and shazam is nominal. DC has always portrayed them as such.

Originally posted by Galan007
^ i never said they were 'equals'. 'near-equals' and/or 'peers' is the terminology i've repeatedly used.

like i said: i've no problem with superman being the stronger of the two--so long as it's understood that the difference between he and shazam is nominal.

Considering everything that happened, there was a statement of a "edge" because of Captain Marvel's mystical nature, and Cap still a best stalemated? "Nominal" indeed.

Originally posted by leonidas
lol

i gotta admire the subtle hand that so derailed this thread though. it's like i need a berserker ignore button cuz the normal one is not strong enuff!!1!

on thread, kurse in a standard kmc dome. cm has the speed to stay away from him, but even a blitz isn't ko'ing kurse before a couple shots turn the tide imo. in a book, the wisdom of solomon should allow him to deduce the weakness. if there is sufficient iron around billy could take it. otherwise he gets pulped. like anyone in the thor/herc/sm/supes class would in a straight up fight. So the basis of your argument is that CM and Superman are roughy equals to Thor and BRB in the strength dept. Cause that's the only way I see you coming to the conclusion that Kurse would beat CM to a pulp.

Originally posted by h1a8
berserker rage as in wolverine? So wolverine becomes more than 5x stronger when he enters berserker rage?

I think he is refering to The Blonde Whore, Thor.

I've never personally seen what the big deal was about CM/BA being rough equals with Superman. The second it's brought up its met with extreme resistance.

It's not like it lowers Superman or bolsters the Shazam twins. It's just to give an estimate of strength. Ie if Superman can do this then they should and vice versa.
I mean it's not like the grasping for WW and MM that would make no sense either. I don't know, just seems odd to me. Though I feel the same way about Orion but at least he has some "Save me Superman" feats that you can play off of.

With that said, Billy solos the entire Thor rogue roster.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
I've never personally seen what the big deal was about CM/BA being rough equals with Superman. The second it's brought up its met with extreme resistance.

It's not like it lowers Superman or bolsters the Shazam twins. It's just to give an estimate of strength. Ie if Superman can do this then they should and vice versa.
I mean it's not like the grasping for WW and MM that would make no sense either. I don't know, just seems odd to me. Though I feel the same way about Orion but at least he has some "Save me Superman" feats that you can play off of.

With that said, Billy solos the entire Thor rogue roster.

There's definitely examples of showing Captain Marvel as a near-equal, but there's also plenty of examples showing Superman is more than a little stronger. Even in at least one of their direct fights. There's comparative examples I feel get overlooked(or are simply unknown) in favor of saying "they're virtual equals." Which to me feels like the cherry picking.

And you forgot that Billy solos DESPITE being distracted by thinking too much about how he REALLY wishes he had X-Ray vision every time Cortney pops into his head.

Originally posted by Delta1938
There's definitely examples of showing Captain Marvel as a near-equal, but there's also plenty of examples showing Superman is more than a little stronger. Even in at least one of their direct fights. There's comparative examples I feel get overlooked(or are simply unknown) in favor of saying "they're virtual equals." Which to me feels like the cherry picking.

And you forgot that Billy solos DESPITE being distracted by thinking too much about how he REALLY wishes he had X-Ray vision every time Cortney pops into his head.

Which fight between the two shows a gap in strength?

Originally posted by leonidas
lol gawd, how i'd love to see that happen....he'll never except your challenge in a million years though. he'd lose for certain and being banned for a month=no anti-superman hate for a month. he couldn't stand it. Take a challenge while you and 50 other superman fans pollute the challenge? You think i will accept that?? There is not a superman writer that's dumb enough to state that superman has dynamic strength, its superman fans that make that claim, even claming that superman can only access 20% of his strength because of mental blocks.LMAO!!..... One minute they say he can go all-out and rise above his peers then in the ever common blooper, state that he cannot dip into his might because of mental blocks.LMAO, And all the while, you have statements of him going all-out against other characters, getting over-powered, getting beaten, meeting stronger characters While NOTHING has even been written that he can stop holding back or drop mental blocks to win against major threats, even admitted on-panel that he DOES NOT have the power to stop imperix and needed everyones help, so you take that little rat on your page and keep eating your hidden superman cheese. If superman had dynamic strength, it would be as clear as day and made known by ALL his writers like ALL of hulks writers have done for many years. Superman himself ( which is the living writers words ) has stated many times he was giving all he had, BUT what do superman fans do??? They have to get creative and desperate, SOOOOOOOO, they dream up mental blocks and say he cannot access his might because of blocks???LMAO. Do you think i want to end this great comedy that gives me a good healthy laugh every day?? You got me bent. And for the record, his mental blocks are there so that he does not have to keep reminding himself to be careful around humans, weaker foes as not to hurt or kill them, get it???? He can use all his strength against his peers and stronger foes, get it?? Of course you dont get it, you belong to the house of EL as undercover as you might think you are.

Originally posted by JBL
Take a challenge while you and 50 other superman fans pollute the challenge? You think i will accept that?? There is not a superman writer that's dumb enough to state that superman has dynamic strength, its superman fans that make that claim, even claming that superman can only access 20% of his strength because of mental blocks.LMAO!!..... One minute they say he can go all-out and rise above his peers then in the ever common blooper, state that he cannot dip into his might because of mental blocks.LMAO, And all the while, you have statements of him going all-out against other characters, getting over-powered, getting beaten, meeting stronger characters While NOTHING has even been written that he can stop holding back or drop mental blocks to win against major threats, even admitted on-panel that he DOES NOT have the power to stop imperix and needed everyones help, so you take that little rat on your page and keep eating your hidden superman cheese. If superman had dynamic strength, it would be as clear as day and made known by ALL his writers like ALL of hulks writers have done for many years. Superman himself ( which is the living writers words ) has stated many times he was giving all he had, BUT what do superman fans do??? They have to get creative and desperate, SOOOOOOOO, they dream up mental blocks and say he cannot access his might because of blocks???LMAO. Do you think i want to end this great comedy that gives me a good healthy laugh every day?? You got me bent. And for the record, his mental blocks are there so that he does not have to keep reminding himself to be careful around humans, weaker foes as not to hurt or kill them, get it???? He can use all his strength against his peers and stronger foes, get it?? Of course you dont get it, you belong to the house of EL as undercover as you might think you are.

Those are fighting words..


If you think you can battle zone this with Delta, why don't you put some stipulations so that the thread doesn't get polluted?

Also lets make this more irresistible for him.

What if We throw in TWO pineapples ?

http://www.juicingandrawfoods.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/pineapple-health-benefits.jpghttp://images.killermovies.com/forums/user_sigs/2/4/customsig_142724_su.gif

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
Also lets make this more irresistible for him.

What if We throw in TWO pineapples ?

http://www.juicingandrawfoods.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/pineapple-health-benefits.jpghttp://images.killermovies.com/forums/user_sigs/2/4/customsig_142724_su.gif

You're going to drive him insane.

Originally posted by Diesldude
You're going to drive him insane. What he is doing is giving me a great deal of laughter

So what does the legitimacy of Superman's dynamic strength have to do with this thread?

Kurse wins

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
Also lets make this more irresistible for him.

What if We throw in TWO pineapples ?

http://www.juicingandrawfoods.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/pineapple-health-benefits.jpghttp://images.killermovies.com/forums/user_sigs/2/4/customsig_142724_su.gif Those two pics of superman would be a lot better, no one on here worship pineapples.

Originally posted by Diesldude
You're going to drive him insane.

http://images.killermovies.com/forums/custom_avatars/avatar123405_7.gif


Originally posted by JBL
Those two pics of superman would be a lot better, no one on here worship pineapples.

Better?

http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu200/biensalsa/GIFS/pinejbl_zps7f0ca7b4.gif

Kurse flattened Thor, I dont see Capt Marvel doing any better.

Originally posted by DTM
Kurse flattened Thor, I dont see Capt Marvel doing any better. This is a forum fight. CM is faster, more mobile, etc.
Thor could have easily beat Kurse if he used his powers and not fought like a caveman.

How often does Billy use that Wisdom of Solomon?

Kurse punches him to bits

Wisdom of Salamon should help him find Kurse weakness, with a vast speed advantage CM takes it more often than not.

Yah, but he almost never uses it lol.

Wisdom of Solomon SHOULD give him spell casting ability too, right? I think I read it in his bio somewhere.

Originally posted by JBL
Take a challenge while you and 50 other superman fans pollute the challenge? You think i will accept that?? There is not a superman writer that's dumb enough to state that superman has dynamic strength, its superman fans that make that claim, even claming that superman can only access 20% of his strength because of mental blocks.LMAO!!..... One minute they say he can go all-out and rise above his peers then in the ever common blooper, state that he cannot dip into his might because of mental blocks.LMAO, And all the while, you have statements of him going all-out against other characters, getting over-powered, getting beaten, meeting stronger characters While NOTHING has even been written that he can stop holding back or drop mental blocks to win against major threats, even admitted on-panel that he DOES NOT have the power to stop imperix and needed everyones help, so you take that little rat on your page and keep eating your hidden superman cheese. If superman had dynamic strength, it would be as clear as day and made known by ALL his writers like ALL of hulks writers have done for many years. Superman himself ( which is the living writers words ) has stated many times he was giving all he had, BUT what do superman fans do??? They have to get creative and desperate, SOOOOOOOO, they dream up mental blocks and say he cannot access his might because of blocks???LMAO. Do you think i want to end this great comedy that gives me a good healthy laugh every day?? You got me bent. And for the record, his mental blocks are there so that he does not have to keep reminding himself to be careful around humans, weaker foes as not to hurt or kill them, get it???? He can use all his strength against his peers and stronger foes, get it?? Of course you dont get it, you belong to the house of EL as undercover as you might think you are.

I understand. I figured you wouldn't accept my challenge for the same reason I didn't expect you to apologize over falsely claiming I said Doomsday beats Galactus(since you never actually read what I posted for the longest time, if at all. I was only expecting a man to apologize.

You bring-up boxing metaphors. I'll use one. Floyd Mayweather Jr talks shit a lot about MMA, saying they're nowhere near his level, that any quality boxer can go into the UFC and easily become champion, ect. But when given the opportunity to back his shit talking, he always dodges it. He knows he would get destroyed. You know you stand no chance, not because of "fan pollution," as a Battlezone would have only those involved in the thread(debaters, judges, ect) allowed post until it's over.

No, the real reason is, deep down, you know you have no argument. And you don't want that exposed to your conscious mind.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Yah, but he almost never uses it lol.

Wisdom of Solomon SHOULD give him spell casting ability too, right? I think I read it in his bio somewhere.

It's been shown more as a sense than something he'd have to actively use. Like he just knew that a building framework was going to collapse or something(but wasn't sure why) in THE POWER OF SHAZAM graphic novel(before the regular series), and in SUPERMAN/SHAZAM!: FIRST THUNDER, he just knew about the mallus trolls.

Originally posted by carver9
Which fight between the two shows a gap in strength?

The very cited SUPERMAN/BATMAN fight where Cap has this "edge toe-to-toe" because of magick. Superman is effected by Kryptonite(that increasing as time goes on), had fought a lot and even had energy drained from him. But Cap can only stalemate him at best and Superman catches his punch. I already pointed this out. That's one example.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
Wisdom of Salamon should help him find Kurse weakness, with a vast speed advantage CM takes it more often than not.

In a featureless battlefield, where is he getting this iron from? If there was no weakness exploitation, and the fight was measured from this concept, Captain Marvel gets chipped up. I mean how is this even fair if Captain Marvel gets to use Algrim's vulnerability against him?

HE MAKES IRON

Good point by Stoic, though.

Originally posted by Delta1938
The very cited SUPERMAN/BATMAN fight where Cap has this "edge toe-to-toe" because of magick. Superman is effected by Kryptonite(that increasing as time goes on), had fought a lot and even had energy drained from him. But Cap can only stalemate him at best and Superman catches his punch. I already pointed this out. That's one example.

Do you have the scan of the Kryptonite showing? How about this, provide me all of the issue numbers. I need to refresh my memory. Also, Superman didn't seem weakened during that showing and per the way he was talking, it seems like he was giving an overall description, not a right then statement (hope you understood that).

Originally posted by carver9
Do you have the scan of the Kryptonite showing? How about this, provide me all of the issue numbers. I need to refresh my memory. Also, Superman didn't seem weakened during that showing and per the way he was talking, it seems like he was giving an overall description, not a right then statement (hope you understood that).

SUPERMAN/BATMAN #1-#4 is the storyline.

SUPERMAN/BATMAN #1, when telling President Luthor about the Kryptonite asteroid, that when it will be passing Saturn, they could be feeling its radioactivity on Earth. SUPERMAN/BATMAN #2. It passes Saturn. After Superman has a Kryptonite bullet removed from him, he fights what appears to be the Pre-CRISIS Superman, based on a reference in a later, but connected storyline. This Superman is actually trying to kill New Ear Superman. Also, during the fight, Superman grabs the Kryptonite bullet to put in a shotgun and use on (apparent) Pre-CRSIS Superman.

EDIT: Adding the scans from SUPERMAN/BATMAN #1 about the Kryptonite meteor, then that it passed Saturn before Superman's fight with the apparent Pre-CRISIS Superman from the future.

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Superman%20VS--/Heroes/Miscellaneous/PC-Superman/th_SUPERMAN_BATMAN1-PG20-21.jpg http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Superman%20VS--/Heroes/Miscellaneous/PC-Superman/th_SUPERMAN_BATMAN2-PG07.jpg

Then he fights Silver Banshee, a bunch of ice based villains, Mongul II, gets attacked by Nighshade(whose energy from a shadow dimension drains Superman), KOs Gorilla Grodd who was controlling the villains, and then him and Batman momentarily fight the other villains around them before the strike force sent to arrest Superman comes in. Some of them are secretly on Superman's side, and Batman helps a bit(mainly keeping a couple busy), but overall Superman embarrasses them. Then more time goes on as other stuff happens.

Then more time goes on as Supes, Batman, Power Girl and Katana go to get the giant robot from Toyman that's made to destroy the Kryptonite meteor. Before Captain Marvel attacks, this is what happen.

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Superman%20VS--/Heroes/Captain%20Marvel/S-B%204/SUPERMAN-BATMAN4-PG16.jpg

Power Girl asks what took him so long. Superman claims he just wanted to fly below Toyman's RADAR, but Batman believes the Kryptonite meteor is effecting Superman. Superman specifically asks Power Girl if she "feels" anything in the air, and when she says no, Superman's narration states it's odd, because he recently heard Power Girl had reacted to Kryptonite. This I believe was when the storyline having her swap between her Kryptonian and Atlantean origins was happening due to the oncoming INFINITE CRISIS.

Considering Superman's moving slow compared to Power Girl, Batman is speculating that Supes feels the Kryptonite, and Superman specifically asks PeeGee if she "feels anything in the air" and is surprised she didn't, I don't see how that can't be seen as anything but the writer pounding that, yes, Superman is indeed effected by it. Plus, all that fighting, and the energy drain, he had before. Superman's statement of wanting to fly under Toyman's RADAR is contradicted by his narration of surprise that Power Girl doesn't feel the Kryptonite. So basically he was acting like he was fine.

if the writer intended it to be a known fact that supes was weakened, he wouldn't have had batman state "i cannot be certain...", and/or would have had superman blatantly state "i am weakening."

but since nothing of the sort was stated outright, and open-ended terminology was used, all we can deduce is that the scene was left ambiguous AT BEST.

Originally posted by Galan007
if the writer intended it to be a known fact that supes was weakened, he wouldn't have had batman state "i cannot be certain...", and/or would have had superman blatantly state "i am weakening."

but since nothing of the sort was stated outright, and open-ended terminology was used, all we can deduce is that the scene was left ambiguous AT BEST.

Talk about straw grasping.

yes, because pointing out OBVIOUS dialogue-ambiguity equates to "straw grasping" 'round these parts.

Originally posted by Galan007
yes, because pointing out OBVIOUS dialogue-ambiguity equates to "straw grasping" 'round these parts.

Except you're focusing on just one statement in the scene, and ignoring the rest. As well as everything established prior to this scene. And you accuse others of cherry picking.

no, i'm referring to EVERY statement in that scan. they are ALL indirect/open-ended/ambiguous. acting like they are statements of incontrovertible fact is retarded. they clearly are not.

don't be upset just because i'm poking holes in your theory. if the writer intended superman to be significantly weakened, we would have been BLATANTLY informed of such. he wouldn't have left such an important detail up to reader-interpretation.

Originally posted by Galan007
no, i'm referring to EVERY statement in that scan. they are ALL indirect/open-ended/ambiguous. acting like they are statements of incontrovertible fact is retarded. they clearly are not.

don't be upset just because i'm poking holes in your theory. if the writer intended superman to be significantly weakened, we would have been BLATANTLY informed of such. he wouldn't have left such an important detail up to reader-interpretation.

Clearly the Kryptonite was indeed effecting him as he was traveling rather slow and was surprised Power Girl didn't "feel anything." The story speaks for itself, I merely pointed-out what happens.

And amusing that you say I'm the one getting upset after that PMS-level meldown you had previously. But you also said you were "done with this thread so eh. Have a nice day.

read your own scan, please. clark explained why he was 'flying slow'. again: ambiguity.

anyway, concession accepted. stay mad.

Originally posted by Galan007
if the writer intended it to be a known fact that supes was weakened, he wouldn't have had batman state "i cannot be certain...", and/or would have had superman blatantly state "i am weakening."

but since nothing of the sort was stated outright, and open-ended terminology was used, all we can deduce is that the scene was left ambiguous AT BEST.

Originally posted by Delta1938
SUPERMAN/BATMAN #1-#4 is the storyline.

SUPERMAN/BATMAN #1, when telling President Luthor about the Kryptonite asteroid, that when it will be passing Saturn, they could be feeling its radioactivity on Earth. SUPERMAN/BATMAN #2. It passes Saturn. After Superman has a Kryptonite bullet removed from him, he fights what appears to be the Pre-CRISIS Superman, based on a reference in a later, but connected storyline. This Superman is actually trying to kill New Ear Superman. Also, during the fight, Superman grabs the Kryptonite bullet to put in a shotgun and use on (apparent) Pre-CRSIS Superman.

EDIT: Adding the scans from SUPERMAN/BATMAN #1 about the Kryptonite meteor, then that it passed Saturn before Superman's fight with the apparent Pre-CRISIS Superman from the future.

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Superman%20VS--/Heroes/Miscellaneous/PC-Superman/th_SUPERMAN_BATMAN1-PG20-21.jpg http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Superman%20VS--/Heroes/Miscellaneous/PC-Superman/th_SUPERMAN_BATMAN2-PG07.jpg

Then he fights Silver Banshee, a bunch of ice based villains, Mongul II, gets attacked by Nighshade(whose energy from a shadow dimension drains Superman), KOs Gorilla Grodd who was controlling the villains, and then him and Batman momentarily fight the other villains around them before the strike force sent to arrest Superman comes in. Some of them are secretly on Superman's side, and Batman helps a bit(mainly keeping a couple busy), but overall Superman embarrasses them. Then more time goes on as other stuff happens.

Then more time goes on as Supes, Batman, Power Girl and Katana go to get the giant robot from Toyman that's made to destroy the Kryptonite meteor. Before Captain Marvel attacks, this is what happen.

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/Superman%20VS--/Heroes/Captain%20Marvel/S-B%204/SUPERMAN-BATMAN4-PG16.jpg

Power Girl asks what took him so long. Superman claims he just wanted to fly below Toyman's RADAR, but Batman believes the Kryptonite meteor is effecting Superman. Superman specifically asks Power Girl if she "feels" anything in the air, and when she says no, Superman's narration states it's odd, because he recently heard Power Girl had reacted to Kryptonite. This I believe was when the storyline having her swap between her Kryptonian and Atlantean origins was happening due to the oncoming INFINITE CRISIS.

Considering Superman's moving slow compared to Power Girl, Batman is speculating that Supes feels the Kryptonite, and Superman specifically asks PeeGee if she "feels anything in the air" and is surprised she didn't, I don't see how that can't be seen as anything but the writer pounding that, yes, Superman is indeed effected by it. Plus, all that fighting, and the energy drain, he had before. Superman's statement of wanting to fly under Toyman's RADAR is contradicted by his narration of surprise that Power Girl doesn't feel the Kryptonite. So basically he was acting like he was fine. LMAO!! Can you comprehend words? You get corrected daily and still try to worm your way out. I expect my Pimp to be smarter than that.

Originally posted by Galan007
read your own scan, please. clark explained why he was 'flying slow'. again: ambiguity.

anyway, concession accepted. stay mad.

I've read the story. I also pointed-out Clark's surprise to PeeGee not feeling anything strange doesn't support him actually flying slow. If Jeph Loeb didn't intend for Superman to be weakened, he sure put a lot of work to make it ambiguous.

And nah, I'm not mad in the least. Good day ma'am.

Originally posted by JBL
LMAO!! Can you comprehend words? You get corrected daily and still try to worm your way out.

That's not actual what's happening. And it's clear that you have to cheerlead others because you're not very good at this. You didn't even have the balls to decline my challenge to me. You threw a hissy fit at Leo.

Deal with it. You suck at this and are afraid to step-up to my challenge. You can't say other Superman fans will "pollute" the thread because we can have it so only those involved in the topic(debaters, judges and the ref) are allowed to post.

So put-up or shut-up. Don't make excuses.

Originally posted by Delta1938
I've read the story. I also pointed-out Clark's surprise to PeeGee not feeling anything strange doesn't support him actually flying slow. If Jeph Loeb didn't intend for Superman to be weakened, he sure put a lot of work to make it ambiguous.

And nah, I'm not mad in the least. Good day ma'am.



That's not actual what's happening. And it's clear that you have to cheerlead others because you're not very good at this. You didn't even have the balls to decline my challenge to me. You threw a hissy fit at Leo.

Deal with it. You suck at this and are afraid to step-up to my challenge. You can't say other Superman fans will "pollute" the thread because we can have it so only those involved in the topic(debaters, judges and the ref) are allowed to post.

So put-up or shut-up. Don't make excuses. Why would i go against you big daddyyyyy??

Originally posted by JBL
Why would i go against you big daddyyyyy??

Ya know, if you're so afraid, we can drop the banned for a month if that helps.

If kryptonite has nothing to do with the fight I don't see why the writer will mention that, but kryptonite was a big part of the arc and is conveniently mention before the fight.

Originally posted by Delta1938
Ya know, if you're so afraid, we can drop the banned for a month if that helps.

I sweeten the deal with 3 pineapples

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
If kryptonite has nothing to do with the fight I don't see why the writer will mention that, but kryptonite was a big part of the arc and is conveniently mention before the fight.

Loeb went out of his way to establish Kryptonite as an effect. #1, scientists briefing to Luthor on what's going on and when we can feel the effects. #2, we see it pass the line where we'll fee the effects. #4 before fighting the strike force, we see it's even closer to Earth, then Power Girl asking why Superman was slow, Batman thinking it's effecting Superman, and Superman being surprised that Power Girl wasn't feeling anything when she recently had reacted to Kryptonite. Too many times and ways it's brought up to say it's "ambiguous."

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
I sweeten the deal with 3 pineapples

He's too exhausted from thinking about that to debate.

Originally posted by Delta1938
Loeb went out of his way to establish Kryptonite as an effect. #1, scientists briefing to Luthor on what's going on and when we can feel the effects. #2, we see it pass the line where we'll fee the effects. #4 before fighting the strike force, we see it's even closer to Earth, then Power Girl asking why Superman was slow, Batman thinking it's effecting Superman, and Superman being surprised that Power Girl wasn't feeling anything when she recently had reacted to Kryptonite. Too many times and ways it's brought up to say it's "ambiguous."



He's too exhausted from thinking about that to debate. http://static.someecards.com/someecards/usercards/1351027175176_5313784.png

Originally posted by JBL
http://static.someecards.com/someecards/usercards/1351027175176_5313784.png

And what brown nosing is here, exactly?

Originally posted by JBL
Why would i go against you big daddyyyyy??

You have debased yourself with this thread!

You are not built for these wars, boy!

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
You have debased yourself with this thread!

You are not built for these wars, boy! The third superman fan has arrived, the circle is complete. The pollution has been named, thus i decline a challenge from a superman fan with his superman fan followers at every turn. It reminds me of this...
http://www.cartoonstock.com/lowres/animals-trial-crime-criminal-bad_news-problems-jfa1032l.jpg
Or this..
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-t7Lvnu98MdQ/UnUwebJ2vVI/AAAAAAAAAZA/EdNub6wJb0g/s1600/bias+jury.png

Originally posted by JBL
The third superman fan has arrived, the circle is complete. The pollution has been named, thus i decline a challenge from a superman fan with his superman fan followers at every turn. It reminds me of this...
http://www.cartoonstock.com/lowres/animals-trial-crime-criminal-bad_news-problems-jfa1032l.jpg
Or this..
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-t7Lvnu98MdQ/UnUwebJ2vVI/AAAAAAAAAZA/EdNub6wJb0g/s1600/bias+jury.png


You'd rather call another man "Big Daddy" instead of debating him and you think that's funny.

A MORAL DISGRACE!

Originally posted by LordofBrooklyn
You'd rather call another man "Big Daddy" instead of debating him and you think that's funny.

A MORAL DISGRACE! That's right, a man that claims he's pimping a man is Ok in your book as long as you both love and worship a MAN in tights and a cape. . Please never stop, i love to laugh like this.

Originally posted by JBL
That's right, a man that claims he's pimping a man is Ok in your book as long as you both love and worship a MAN in tights and a cape. . Please never stop, i love to laugh like this.

This means you will debate him, yes?

Originally posted by JBL
The third superman fan has arrived, the circle is complete. The pollution has been named, thus i decline a challenge from a superman fan with his superman fan followers at every turn. It reminds me of this...
http://www.cartoonstock.com/lowres/animals-trial-crime-criminal-bad_news-problems-jfa1032l.jpg
Or this..
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-t7Lvnu98MdQ/UnUwebJ2vVI/AAAAAAAAAZA/EdNub6wJb0g/s1600/bias+jury.png


On a battlezone no one but the judges and the contestants are allowed to post.

We are allowed to post on the battlezone discussion forum but not in the actualbattlezone match

So you will be on a pretty neutral battleground, hell even you and delta have to agree on the judges.

So you can refuse any judge you think might not be impartial to both of you.

Or you can keep calling him daddy and emasculate your self even further.that is up to you.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
If kryptonite has nothing to do with the fight I don't see why the writer will mention that, but kryptonite was a big part of the arc and is conveniently mention before the fight. ...none of this makes the specific verbiage used in that scene any less ambiguous.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
On a battlezone no one but the judges and the contestants are allowed to post.

We are allowed to post on the battlezone discussion forum but not in the actualbattlezone match

So you will be on a pretty neutral battleground, hell even you and delta have to agree on the judges.

So you can refuse any judge you think might not be impartial to both of you.

Or you can keep calling him daddy and emasculate your self even further.that is up to you. Debating is a waste of time because if superman had dynamic strength, it would stop writers and the likes from FLAT OUT STATING that superman, CM, BA and plenty others are in the same strength class or equals. Very simple to understand if your nose is away from supes rear. Why would DC comics, writers and others make claims like this if one could stop holding back or drop (LMAO)mental blocks and gain anywhere between the fan made up 1 to 5x strength gain.

A for the strength of Amon Black Adam has a phenomenal level of super strength, able to easily bend steel, punch through walls, produce powerful shockwaves by clapping his hands, and lift massive objects. Adam's strength is generally depicted of being on levels equal to those of Superman and Captain Marvel, though some writers have portrayed his strength as possibly outmatching them. On at least one occasion, he has been able to hold his own against an assemblage of the Justice League, Justice Society, Great Ten, Martian Manhunter (who has strength depicted as close to Superman) and the Teen Titans

Originally posted by Galan007
you and i both know that ANY time they've met or battled on panel, they are ALWAYS treated as near-equals. hell, in S/B #4 superman himself stated that shazam holds the advantage over him toe-to-toe, thanks to his magical nature.

anywho, i really don't care if people claim that superman is *marginally* more powerful than shazam--but acting like the difference between them equates to many orders of magnitude is an outright lie that directly contradicts on panel happenings. they're peers. always have been.
Oh that fight? Well, that was Loeb's subtle way to show Superman was stronger of two.

Originally posted by abhilegend
You know what else is funny? An all out Captain Marvel failing to beat Superman with a cheapshot and several attacks while Superman was weakened by kryptonite, drained by Nightshade just before that and took on an entire legion of villains and heroes including Captain Atom, Power Girl, John Stewart, Major Force and Mongul and where his magical vulnerability was specifically mentioned.

Here is Cap ordered to go all out.

http://i.imgur.com/gJQgNWL.jpg

Superman drained before that.

http://i.imgur.com/2u9VxYK.jpg

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/th_sb-04-15.jpg http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/th_sb-04-16.jpg http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/th_sb-04-17.jpg http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Superman/th_sb-04-18.jpg

And then the same weakened superman knocks out cap off panel with a cheapshot and steals his clothes.

http://i.imgur.com/olGxpZo.jpg

So an all out Cap can't beat a weakened superman while Superman was severally handicapped but Superman takes him out casually when he wants?

mmm

BTW I just imagined Cap tied somewhere along with Hawkman naked and can't help but laugh. Loeb you sly dog!

Superman was undoubtedly weakened due to getting drained by Nightshade+fighting constantly+kryptonite, yet all out Cap failed to knock him out with a suckerpunch and Superman caught his punch despite being weakened. And then he knocked out cap with a suckerpunch. Who looked more impressive? Cap had all the advantages in his favor and yet Superman looked decidedly superior in strength. And every fight?

Originally posted by abhilegend
Superman wins decisively in a punchfest. Just like he beat the shit out of Adam's equal Captain Marvel in only decisive fight among all three.

http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Battles/heroes/ActionComicsAnnual04a.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Battles/heroes/ActionComicsAnnual04b.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Battles/heroes/ActionComicsAnnual04c.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Battles/heroes/ActionComicsAnnual04d.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Battles/heroes/ActionComicsAnnual04e.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Battles/heroes/ActionComicsAnnual04f.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Battles/heroes/ActionComicsAnnual04g.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Battles/heroes/ActionComicsAnnual04h.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Battles/heroes/ActionComicsAnnual04i.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Battles/heroes/ActionComicsAnnual04j.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Battles/heroes/ActionComicsAnnual04k.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Battles/heroes/ActionComicsAnnual04l.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Battles/heroes/ActionComicsAnnual04m.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Battles/heroes/ActionComicsAnnual04n.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Battles/heroes/ActionComicsAnnual04o.jpg

And before someone starts shouting Eclipso amp, it was shown in the very same crossover that Superman's powers actually weaken Eclipso as Eclipso weakens Superman.

http://i.imgur.com/K9jbIig.jpg

/thread

I disgaree.

nearly a whole issue-worth of battling and superman didn't gain any sort of advantage until the very last scan? yeah, thanks for helping prove my point that he and shazam are ALWAYS portrayed as near-equals when they fight.

it's also worth noting that superman was out for blood thanks to eclipso-possession, while shazam was not.

Originally posted by Galan007
if the writer intended it to be a known fact that supes was weakened, he wouldn't have had batman state "i cannot be certain...", and/or would have had superman blatantly state "i am weakening."

but since nothing of the sort was stated outright, and open-ended terminology was used, all we can deduce is that the scene was left ambiguous AT BEST.
Well, that'd be silly. Why would Superman ask Power Girl if she is affected or why would Katana mention the fact that Superman was actually slower than normal? And as you know, Luthor explained that once the meteor would come near saturn and its radiation would be felt on earth as explained here.

http://s1199.photobucket.com/user/Delta1938/media/Superman%20VS--/Heroes/Miscellaneous/PC-Superman/SUPERMAN_BATMAN1-PG20-21.jpg.html

Well just look at where the asteroid is at the time.

http://s1199.photobucket.com/user/Delta1938/media/Superman%20VS--/Heroes/Miscellaneous/PC-Superman/SUPERMAN_BATMAN2-PG07.jpg.html

Passing saturn. In the issue where Superman fought Cap, it was passing Jupiter.

http://i.imgur.com/UG1CKaW.jpg

No ambiguous words there.

So, its radiation would be starting to felt when it was passing saturn but passing Jupiter and Superman wasn't feeling its effects? I call BS.

CM has beaten superman before.

Originally posted by Galan007
nearly a whole issue-worth of battling and superman didn't gain any sort of advantage until the very last scan? yeah, thanks for helping prove my point that he and shazam are ALWAYS portrayed as near-equals when they fight.

it's also worth noting that superman was out for blood thanks to eclipso-possession, while shazam was not.
That's how the fights between peers go. And Cap stated that he's not going to hold back and starting to go rough on him.

And actually suckershotting him at the start of the fight. But hey, look at how Superman's fight with the guy who was actually more powerful than every hero Eclipso controlled went.

http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Battles/heroes/EclipsoDarknessWithin02a.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Battles/heroes/EclipsoDarknessWithin02b.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Battles/heroes/EclipsoDarknessWithin02c.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Battles/heroes/EclipsoDarknessWithin02d.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Battles/heroes/EclipsoDarknessWithin02e.jpg
http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af191/lgu88/Superman/Battles/heroes/EclipsoDarknessWithin02f.jpg


http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/DC/th_2096729-15_7.jpg

So yeah, fighting savagely didn't give Superman the win against Cap. Superior strength did.

Originally posted by JBL
CM has beaten superman before.
Never did. Superman has.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Well, that'd be silly. Why would Superman ask Power Girl if she is affected or why would Katana mention the fact that Superman was actually slower than normal? And as you know, Luthor explained that once the meteor would come near saturn and its radiation would be felt on earth as explained here.

http://s1199.photobucket.com/user/Delta1938/media/Superman%20VS--/Heroes/Miscellaneous/PC-Superman/SUPERMAN_BATMAN1-PG20-21.jpg.html "COULD" start feeling it on earth. this obviously isn't the same as "WILL" start feeling it on earth. again: ambiguous at best. like i said earlier: if loeb intended superman to be weakened when he fought shazam, we would have been blatantly informed of such.

in fact, it wasn't stated that the kryptonite radiation had began piercing earth's atmosphere and negatively affecting superman until issue #6(the final issue of the arc, and 2 issues AFTER he'd fought shazam):
http://i.imgur.com/VXMk8HS.jpg
"it's the asteroid. even from space, the kryptonite radiation is STARTING to pierce our atmosphere."

see the difference? no ambiguity to be had. that right there busts this little myth you two are trying to propagate.

Originally posted by abhilegend
That's how the fights between peers go. yes, they are peers/near-equals, which has been my contention this entire time.

i don't care about the unrelated superman wank-feats you posted.

Originally posted by Galan007
"COULD" start feeling it on earth. this obviously isn't the same as "WILL" start feeling it on earth. again: ambiguous at best. like i said earlier: if loeb intended superman to be weakened when he fought shazam, we would have been blatantly informed of such.

in fact, it wasn't stated that the kryptonite radiation had began piercing earth's atmosphere and negatively affecting superman until issue #6(the final issue of the arc, and 2 issues AFTER he'd fought shazam):
http://i.imgur.com/VXMk8HS.jpg
"it's the asteroid. even from space, the kryptonite radiation is STARTING to pierce our atmosphere."

see the difference? no ambiguity to be had. that right there busts this little myth you two are trying to propagate.

Yeah, I would take Lex and scientist's words against Batman's words, who was shown to be woefully incompetent in that arc.

And if there was kryptonite starting to pierce Earth's atmosphere two issues after the fight, why even mention it before?

And kryptonite is only one factor in Superman's weakness, he was also drained by Nightshade before that.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Yeah, I would take Lex and scientist's words against Batman's words, who was shown to be woefully incompetent in that arc.

And if there was kryptonite starting to pierce Earth's atmosphere two issues after the fight, why even mention it before?

And kryptonite is only one factor in Superman's weakness, he was also drained by Nightshade before that.

we were explicitly told...in black and white...with no ambiguity to be had...exactly WHEN the k-nite ACTUALLY began piercing the atmosphere and negatively affecting superman--and it was WELL AFTER he fought shazam.

but naturally you'd rather accept any theory that agrees with your superman-wank, even if it means ignoring incontrovertible evidence.


*sighs* why do i even try? facepalm

Originally posted by Galan007
yes, they are peers/near-equals, which has been my contention this entire time.

i don't care about the unrelated superman wank-feats you posted.
Haha, that's what you're trying to do? My bad then. Superman is stronger though. And for your diana comment, here is Superman mentioning that Diana and Cap hit the same.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/120679/2553745-iejh4x.jpg

313

I can bring more evidence of J'onn being Superman's equal in strength, yet we know they aren't equals.

Originally posted by Galan007
we were explicitly told...in black and white...with no ambiguity to be had...exactly WHEN the k-nite ACTUALLY began piercing the atmosphere and negatively affecting superman--and it was WELL AFTER he fought shazam.

but naturally you'd rather accept any theory that agrees with your superman-wank, even if it means ignoring incontrovertible evidence.


*sighs* why do i even try? facepalm
facepalm

Superman was getting affected by kryptonite but Batman wasn't certain since Superman wasn't showing outward reaction to it. Batman stated that after Superman was actually showing signs of kryptonite poisoning. Doesn't has to contradict each other.

And my point was that Superman was weakened. No wanking there.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Haha, that's what you're trying to do? My bad then. Superman is stronger though. if you'd actually read my posts before going on this tangent, you'd see that i already agreed that superman was the stronger of the two. all i've said is that the difference between them is typically portrayed as marginal. simple.

Originally posted by Galan007
if you'd actually read my posts before going on this tangent, you'd see that i already agreed that superman was the stronger of the two. all i've said is that the difference between them is typically portrayed as marginal. simple.
Me sowwy.

Originally posted by abhilegend
facepalm

Superman was getting affected by kryptonite but Batman wasn't certain since Superman wasn't showing outward reaction to it. Batman stated that after Superman was actually showing signs of kryptonite poisoning. Doesn't has to contradict each other.

And my point was that Superman was weakened. No wanking there. the simple fact is that loeb explicitly/blatantly/unambiguously(key words) told us via narration that the kryptonite hadn't began piercing earth's atmosphere and negatively affecting superman until issue #6:
http://i.imgur.com/g3QHvYa.jpg

so if said radiation didn't break through earth's atmosphere until issue #6, then it obviously hadn't yet broken through earth's atmosphere in issue #4. therefore i do not believe loeb intended superman to be weakened when he fought shazam in the latter issue--at least not enough to affect his performance.

Originally posted by Galan007
the simple fact is that loeb explicitly/blatantly/unambiguously(key words) told us via narration that the kryptonite hadn't began piercing earth's atmosphere and negatively affecting superman until issue #6:
http://i.imgur.com/g3QHvYa.jpg

so if said radiation didn't break through earth's atmosphere until issue #6, then it obviously hadn't yet broken through earth's atmosphere in issue #4. therefore i do not believe loeb intended superman to be weakened when he fought shazam in the latter issue--at least not enough to affect his performance.


I disagree. The fact that Batman had no way of discovering when the radiation would start piercing the atmosphere other than Superman's signs and Lex and scientists' deductions contradicting the fact. Its not uncommon for

And what of Nightshade draining Superman?