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which empire wins?

Interesting one!

But the Vong.

The Vong are just a lot bigger. Even though the Rakata can replace fleets easily, they have fewer and smaller ships.

Plus, hey, a lot of their military advantage relies on their force powers, which are disadvantaged here.

And the Vong are simply better strategists and warriors. The Rakata are savages who were introduced to Force-based tech from the Kwa.

Yea. I wouldn't quite say the Rakatan are *bad*, but their strategy against Tython largely involved trying to wear them down with repeated savage attacks with expendable forces.

The Vong could get a lot more savvy, and knew the power of diversions and such.

The Vong.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
And the Vong are simply better strategists and warriors. The Rakata are savages who were introduced to Force-based tech from the Kwa.
Rakatans weren't savages, they overwhelmed many established civilizations of their era and routed the Celestials to establish first known galactic superpower.

Rakatans also produced technological marvels with which they could produce endless supply of weapons and forces.

The Vong had weaponry that can destroy entire planets by smashing their Moons to their planets and their Worldships were 120 Kilometers in diameter.

In contrast to Vong, Rakatans are not so well-known or as well-explored.

However, back then, some crazy stuff existed. Specially if you focus on technological capabilities of Celestials, you will be stunned. Celestials were capable of reshaping galaxies or parts of it. They could destroy stars and planets and all that.

It baffles me how Rakatans took control of the matters and established a galactic superpower back then.

The Rakata did not have nearly any of the stuff the Celestials had. Their greatest technological feat was the construction of the Star Forge, which merely sapped the energies of a Star. Not to mention the Rakata merely had 500 planets, they did not control the entire Galaxy. They only spanned the Galaxy because their Hyperdrives were drawn to force sensitive worlds yet they cannot maneuver anywhere without the Force. If you do research on the power generation of the ships during the times of the Vong and Galactic Empire Imperial Star Destroyers were capable of generating energy that rivals and even surpasses the energy of whole stars.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

It baffles me how Rakatans took control of the matters and established a galactic superpower back then.


They had very little competition (which did not include the Celestials). Mostly they sensed, and then went to, individual force-rich worlds.


And Tython was able to do a pretty good job of fighting them off.

Didn't the Celestials kinda merge with the force?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Rakatans weren't savages, they overwhelmed many established civilizations of their era and routed the Celestials to establish first known galactic superpower.

Rakatans also produced technological marvels with which they could produce endless supply of weapons and forces.

The Celestials left the Galaxy off their own accord, they weren't beaten by the Rakatans.

The Rakata technology has always been that of legend. The star forge being the most famous but also remember the rakata box from kotor and the imprisoned one and the infinite engine or the hate engine or something like that from tor. The Rakata empire was using technology far before its time

Originally posted by WildBantha88
The Rakata technology has always been that of legend. The star forge being the most famous but also remember the rakata box from kotor and the imprisoned one and the infinite engine or the hate engine or something like that from tor. The Rakata empire was using technology far before its time

True and they have dominated the galaxy with absolute authority. They must have had insane technology to suppress every other race like that.

My question is, did the rakatan military use the force to create destructive force powers or destructive energy/explosive ammo? If its the latter, I don't think that Vong's lack of force would matter at all and the Rakata could win.

The Rakatans had some crazy technology, but it was still only a relatively small number of worlds.

And Vong stuff is pretty insanely crazy by early-era stuff too. Basically a random Vong cruiser would beat any ship TOR had without a superlaser, let alone a Rakatan ship.

And the worldship.... I don't think the Rakatans have anything that could stop it. It took the NR converting a SSD into a giant *bomb* to do so, and the Rakatans have nothing that big.

The Vong fleet is simply too big in numbers and power.

Interesting how the Celestial and Rakatan reigns ended in completely opposite ways. The Celestials merged with the force while the Rakatans lost touch with it.

Originally posted by The Merchant
The Rakata did not have nearly any of the stuff the Celestials had. Their greatest technological feat was the construction of the Star Forge, which merely sapped the energies of a Star. Not to mention the Rakata merely had 500 planets, they did not control the entire Galaxy. They only spanned the Galaxy because their Hyperdrives were drawn to force sensitive worlds yet they cannot maneuver anywhere without the Force. If you do research on the power generation of the ships during the times of the Vong and Galactic Empire Imperial Star Destroyers were capable of generating energy that rivals and even surpasses the energy of whole stars.
- Rakatans had lot of stuff and Star Forge was one of them.

- Quality of military capability always matters, span of the civilization not so much.

- Yes, maneuverability related limitations are a problem. Rakatans are likely to engage Vong in certain parts of the galaxy.

- I understand, technological progression have been tremendous with passage of time even though ancient marvels hold their own. Harrower-class dreadnaught represented first major (modern) marvel of engineering that required tremendous resources and output to be a possibility and inspired future super-cruiser designs.

Originally posted by Selenial
The Celestials left the Galaxy off their own accord, they weren't beaten by the Rakatans.
This have not been confirmed.

So far, indicators are that Rakatans played a part in routing them.

Originally posted by Q99
And Vong stuff is pretty insanely crazy by early-era stuff too. Basically a random Vong cruiser would beat any ship TOR had without a superlaser, let alone a Rakatan ship.
You have a tendency to underrate TOR era marvels, let alone Rakatans.

Here is a comparison:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/A-vek_Iiluunu

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Harrower-class_dreadnought

Basically, their is no comparison.

Vong were not dangerous because of technological marvels, they were dangerous because their technologies and capabilities were poorly understood. However, at technical level, they were primitive.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

This have not been confirmed.

So far, indicators are that Rakatans played a part in routing them.

There was a massive blog post on StarWars.com about the celestials, basically confirmed it.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You have a tendency to underrate TOR era marvels, let alone Rakatans.

Here is a comparison:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/A-vek_Iiluunu

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Harrower-class_dreadnought

Basically, their is no comparison.

Vong were not dangerous because of technological marvels, they were dangerous because their technologies and capabilities were poorly understood. However, at technical level, they were primitive.

That's just flat out wrong.

The Vong would annihilate the entire TOR era with ease, none of the technology the Empire/Republic had would penetrate the vong's thick armor.

Not to mention the Legacy of Torment and other similarly sized Vessels would one shot pretty much any ship.

Originally posted by Selenial
That's just flat out wrong.

The Vong would annihilate the entire TOR era with ease, none of the technology the Empire/Republic had would penetrate the vong's thick armor.

Not to mention the Legacy of Torment and other similarly sized Vessels would one shot pretty much any ship.
Did you check the specs? I guess not.

On technical level, TOR-era starships are far more advanced and capable then any Vong ship of similar class.

A lone Harrower-class starship was so advanced, well-protected and packed firepower of such magnitude that it could take on entire Republic fleets of its time on its own and devastate entire worlds without much difficulty. In-fact, most advanced Harrower-class starships could one-shot entire fleets of the Republic and even planets with their built-in super-weapons.

In-fact, much of the OT era Imperial starship designs and capabilities are based on Harrower-class starships.

Vong made progress in the war early on because their capabilities and technological ground realities were not properly understood, basically due to element of surprise. But once they were understood well, it was game over for them.

No, actually. That's literally all wrong, I think I saw one thing in your post that I could actually call "correct."

But again, I feel there is no reason to try and debate against anything from the TOR Era with you because you're a raging fanboy who can't accept anything other people actually tell him.

Originally posted by Selenial
No, actually. That's literally all wrong, I think I saw one thing in your post that I could actually call "correct."

But again, I feel there is no reason to try and debate against anything from the TOR Era with you because you're a raging fanboy who can't accept anything other people actually tell him.
I can assert with confidence that you are a raging fangirl of KoTOR II era content. Before accusing others of raging fanboyism, keep in mind your likings and history as well.

Dismissals like that are not productive in debates. You need to provide a valid reason to support your argument.

Its funny that SWTOR era content have left so many butt-hurt.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Rakatans also produced technological marvels with which they could produce endless supply of weapons and forces.

KOTOR says they won't be able to do this endlessly.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I can assert with confidence that you are a raging fangirl of KoTOR II era content. Before accusing others of raging fanboyism, keep in mind your likings and history as well.

Dismissals like that are not productive in debates. You need to provide a valid reason to support your argument.

Its funny that SWTOR era content have left so many butt-hurt.
I'm pretty sure she's talking about the part where you said one dreadnaught could slaughter an entire fleet, which contains more dreadnaughts.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
I'm pretty sure she's talking about the part where you said one dreadnaught could slaughter an entire fleet, which contains more dreadnaughts.
Harrower-class starship had different configurations depending upon models.

One particular model was capable of one-shotting whole fleets of the Republic known as Silencer.

Here is an image: http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130206031821/starwars/images/f/f6/Silencertest.jpg

Due to tremendous firepower and capabilities of this model, it was classified as a superweapon.

I must assert that Selenial does not have knowledge of everything related to Star Wars. No pun intended to her but this is the reality.

Originally posted by Based
KOTOR says they won't be able to do this endlessly.
Any statement that confirms this? I recall that Star Forge is capable of producing endless supply of combat material, vehicles and starships.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
One particular model was capable of one-shotting whole fleets of the Republic known as Silencer.
This model is also known as Doombringer.

The Vong.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Harrower-class starship had different configurations depending upon models.

One particular model was capable of one-shotting whole fleets of the Republic known as Silencer.

Here is an image: http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130206031821/starwars/images/f/f6/Silencertest.jpg

Due to tremendous firepower and capabilities of this model, it was classified as a superweapon.

I must assert that Selenial does not have knowledge of everything related to Star Wars. No pun intended to her but this is the reality.
Yes, but your first statement was that a single dreadnaught could hold off an entire Republic fleet.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The Vong.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Yes, but your first statement was that a single dreadnaught could hold off an entire Republic fleet.
It actually could.

More information here: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f6/t598922.html

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The Vong.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I can assert with confidence that you are a raging fangirl of KoTOR II era content. Before accusing others of raging fanboyism, keep in mind your likings and history as well.

Dismissals like that are not productive in debates. You need to provide a valid reason to support your argument.

Its funny that SWTOR era content have left so many butt-hurt.

And that would be wrong.

Just because you've never played the game and have no idea what any of the characters can do, doesn't make me a fangirl. It makes you a moron.

Also, it can't have left anyone butt-hurt. The words Butt-Hurt imply that you've actually won any debates.

Not necessarily. Debating doesn't have to have anything to do with being butt hurt.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Any statement that confirms this? I recall that Star Forge is capable of producing endless supply of combat material, vehicles and starships.

It says right in KOTOR the Rakata have abused the Star Forge to the point of dark side corruption that ended their empire. Yes the Star Forge in theory can produce infinite war materiel.

Just because the Star Forge can do it endlessly doesn't mean the Rakatata can.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You have a tendency to underrate TOR era marvels, let alone Rakatans.

Here is a comparison:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/A-vek_Iiluunu

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Harrower-class_dreadnought

Basically, their is no comparison.

Vong were not dangerous because of technological marvels, they were dangerous because their technologies and capabilities were poorly understood. However, at technical level, they were primitive.


You do realize you just compared a fighter carrier 'not designed as a warship,' designed to release fighters and fall back, with a crew of 300, to the heaviest TOR ship of the line with a crew of 2,400, right? And that the former carried several times the number of fighters of the latter? (It had 144 fighters per projection, of which there were several, up to a max of 480 total fighters for it's pilot capacity, while a Harrower carried 127 max)

Said fighters, Coralskippers, being superior to the shieldless light ones the Harrower carried as well.

An A-vek Iiluunu would fight a Harrower by releasing it's fighters and then hanging back til the fight was over or only moving in when the Harrower is damaged.


This, the Miid ro'ik, is the Harrower equivalent. At 1,600 meters long, it's twice the Harrower's length, and a TOR fleet has no equivalents to it. It regularly goes toe-to-toe with ISD-IIs, which are basically super-Harrowers, as you know.



Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

On technical level, TOR-era starships are far more advanced and capable then any Vong ship of similar class.

What? No, they're strictly inferior.

Vong ships are equal or slightly superior to OT-era Imperial Star Destroyers, which are basically Harrowers multiplied, based on but expanding from the same principles.

It's not even close.





We have a recorded case of 4 Republic hammerheads and 10 covettes defeating 2 Harrowers and a carrier.

While they could take on a *small* fleet (i.e. smaller than that one), it's worth remembering that Republic Hammerheads of the time were half their size, and ISD and Vong cruisers are twice their size.

The situation is, in short, reversed.




Yes, with superweapons they have in very short supply.




Based on, but bigger and worked on over time.

A Harrower is a small ship by OT era.





Once they were understood well, they still were very capable of going toe-to-toe with their Imperial and Alliance opposition, which as we know are much above TOR era.


They lost in the end due to total logistics, their ships were still very powerful with their ability to strip shields, absorb heavy firepower, and dish out a lot themselves.

Originally posted by Based
It says right in KOTOR the Rakata have abused the Star Forge to the point of dark side corruption that ended their empire. Yes the Star Forge in theory can produce infinite war materiel.

Just because the Star Forge can do it endlessly doesn't mean the Rakatata can. The Rakata own the star forge which can produce infinite resources. Your reasoning makes no sense to me

Originally posted by WildBantha88
The Rakata own the star forge which can produce infinite resources. Your reasoning makes no sense to me

It can produce resources endlessly (but, mind, it does have a max per-time output), but using it too much is likely why they lost connection.

Also, there's the additional matter that the Rakatan don't use automated ships. They still have to crew their stuff.


Basically having a factory that doesn't need raw materials isn't quite the same as always having enough ships.

Originally posted by Q99
It can produce resources endlessly (but, mind, it does have a max per-time output), but using it too much is likely why they lost connection.

Also, there's the additional matter that the Rakatan don't use automated ships. They still have to crew their stuff.


Basically having a factory that doesn't need raw materials isn't quite the same as always having enough ships. That is why the Rakata enslaved all the force sensitive species that they could and trained them as Force Hounds serving a Rakata master. The Rakata empire wasn't solely made up of Rakata

Originally posted by WildBantha88
The Rakata own the star forge which can produce infinite resources. Your reasoning makes no sense to me

lol

It's very clearly stated in game that overuse of the Star Forge caused the Empire to collapse. Therefore there's a limit before all things go to hell. This isn't complicated.

Originally posted by WildBantha88
That is why the Rakata enslaved all the force sensitive species that they could and trained them as Force Hounds serving a Rakata master. The Rakata empire wasn't solely made up of Rakata


Indeed, and thus their capacity is based on part on how many force sensitives they could get.

The Star Forge isn't much use. In the long run it destroys its users, and in the short run, it can't supply much needed for a battle right then and there. It's little better than a single, above-average shipyard or factory. And it produces machines, ot pilots, or technicians, or engineers, or soldiers, or military tacticians and strategists, or chefs, or food. Have as many mindless droids as you want, they're not that good against a few lifeforms.

If there were like, hundreds of Star Forges, then that'd be different. But just one... not impressive, quota-wise.

Wasn't it creating ships in a matter of seconds though?

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
The Star Forge isn't much use. In the long run it destroys its users, and in the short run, it can't supply much needed for a battle right then and there. It's little better than a single, above-average shipyard or factory. And it produces machines, ot pilots, or technicians, or engineers, or soldiers, or military tacticians and strategists, or chefs, or food. Have as many mindless droids as you want, they're not that good against a few lifeforms.


I'd say it's better than *that*! It was the primary thing which allowed Revan to overcome the Republic's natural logistics advantage. It's the fastest ship yard there is, even if there's only one of it.

Quantities of ships without requiring quantities of raw materials is helpful. It's just not helpful enough when the foe is *so* much bigger and has pilots, tacticians, strategists, etc. enough for all their ships.

Originally posted by Based
It says right in KOTOR the Rakata have abused the Star Forge to the point of dark side corruption that ended their empire. Yes the Star Forge in theory can produce infinite war materiel.

Just because the Star Forge can do it endlessly doesn't mean the Rakatata can.
This is strange.

Rakatans were undone by a mysterious plague which wiped out much of the species.

Originally posted by Selenial
And that would be wrong.

Just because you've never played the game and have no idea what any of the characters can do, doesn't make me a fangirl. It makes you a moron.

Also, it can't have left anyone butt-hurt. The words Butt-Hurt imply that you've actually won any debates.
Selenial, your lack of coming to terms with Surik's loss to a Dark Council member, inferiority of Surik to some Jedi including Revan and HoT and assumption that Sith Triumvirate is the most dangerous gang of Sith to have ever existed is an issue and indication of your raging fangirlism for KoTOR II era content.

I have downloaded the game and would eventually play it. I might learning something new from it but it isn't going to change the greater ground realities of the lore.

Yes, SWTOR content have left many fans butt-hurt because it shattered the very essence of what made many fans of KoTOR I and II era content in the first place. Point is that Star Wars is a continuously evolving subject, newer ground realities take precedence over older ones. People should learn to accept and move on like I have done.

In case you don't know, I used to debate in favor of KoTOR I and II era giants long before SWTOR came out. While I have debated in favor of virtually anything that I wanted to, I have come to terms with newer developments within the TOR timeline and moved on. My greatest reason to do so is because fans of PT/OT/Legacy era have always lowballed TOR era developments in debate and this continues to present day.

But unlike you, I am not sticking in the past concerning ground realities of KoTOR I vs KoTOR II vs SWTOR. No need of accusing me of raging fanboyism.

I can easily join the PT/OT/Legacy camp and start bashing TOR era content and redeem myself in the eyes of PT/OT/Legacy camp but then I would be switching from one camp to another. I just focus on ground realities of the lore, irrespective of potential shortcomings in my beliefs sometimes. This is why we debate.

You seldom offer constructive debate, mostly excuses, pointless dismissals and accusations. Stop this and become a proper debater if you have the potential.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Selenial, your lack of coming to terms with Surik's loss to a Dark Council member, inferiority of Surik to some Jedi including Revan and HoT and assumption that Sith Triumvirate is the most dangerous gang of Sith to have ever existed is an issue and indication of your raging fangirlism for KoTOR II era content.

True.

Originally posted by Q99
You do realize you just compared a fighter carrier 'not designed as a warship,' designed to release fighters and fall back, with a crew of 300, to the heaviest TOR ship of the line with a crew of 2,400, right? And that the former carried several times the number of fighters of the latter? (It had 144 fighters per projection, of which there were several, up to a max of 480 total fighters for it's pilot capacity, while a Harrower carried 127 max)
Fellow member Selenial stated that even a random Vong starship is more then a match for any starship of TOR era, this is why I made that comparison and proved her assertion wrong.

Also my belief is quality > quantity. Harrower-class dreadnought is designed in such a manner that it makes rapid deployment of its Starfighter squadron possible and the starship itself can deliver firepower in very effective fashion.

Originally posted by Q99
Said fighters, Coralskippers, being superior to the shieldless light ones the Harrower carried as well.
Mark VI Supremacy-class Starfighter wasn't shield-less but was designed to trade-off protection with speed, mobility and firepower. A squadron of this starfighter would be deadly to anything in a swarm, as it was intended to be as per the doctrine behind its design.

Harrower-class dreadnought also had a fleet of 32 bombers designed to inflict mass-scale devastation. These bombers packed so much firepower that they were used to bombard even planet landscapes to level cities, do the math.

Originally posted by Q99
An A-vek Iiluunu would fight a Harrower by releasing it's fighters and then hanging back til the fight was over or only moving in when the Harrower is damaged.
And Harrower-class dreadnought would do nothing but relax, right?

Originally posted by Q99
This, the Miid ro'ik, is the Harrower equivalent. At 1,600 meters long, it's twice the Harrower's length, and a TOR fleet has no equivalents to it. It regularly goes toe-to-toe with ISD-IIs, which are basically super-Harrowers, as you know.
Bro, size does not matters much in the context of technology. Design and efficiency is more important then size, always had been.

Harrower-class dreadnoughts were designed to be super-efficient and deliver firepower in most effective ways possible, they were a (major) leap in every aspect of starship design and capability in comparison to every other starship design of their era. They served as a guidebook for newer starship designs but it is not necessary that every newer starship was superior to them in every manner possible. What I have observed in OT era is mostly increase in size and capacity to hold larger number of weapons in a single Starship. However, progress in protection level, energy output, design, efficiency and firepower is virtually non-existent or minimum. This isn't a mark against starships of OT era, rather indication of how far Harrower-class starship project had come in terms of innovation, it was a breakthrough for everything ancient.

Originally posted by Q99
What? No, they're strictly inferior.

Vong ships are equal or slightly superior to OT-era Imperial Star Destroyers, which are basically Harrowers multiplied, based on but expanding from the same principles.

It's not even close.
Vong ships are not comparable to OT-era Imperial Star Destroyers at technical level, they have vastly different ground realities and protective and offensive principles. Vong ships are primitive ancient vessels, lack in technological sophistication. Vong ships had no concept of proper shielding either, Doval Basins in them used to produce artificial blackhole like manifestations for defensive purposes of those ships. Vong were dangerous and made progress because their ground realities were not understood well at the time of invasion but situation changed once their ground realities became apparent and Vong were utterly crushed afterwards.

Originally posted by Q99
We have a recorded case of 4 Republic hammerheads and 10 covettes defeating 2 Harrowers and a carrier.

While they could take on a *small* fleet (i.e. smaller than that one), it's worth remembering that Republic Hammerheads of the time were half their size, and ISD and Vong cruisers are twice their size.

The situation is, in short, reversed.
That would be more due to ineptness in decision-making on part of Sith then lack of capability of the starships. TOR era content is plagued with poor story-telling at various points. Nonetheless, Republic fleets packed considerable firepower in collective fashion irrespective of what a single Republic vessel was capable of. Remember that a Republic fleet downed even the mighty Star Forge in a single battle.

Fact is that a Harrower-class dreadnought was capable of fighting an entire Republic fleet of its era on its own, it may or may not win but it had such level of technological sophistication.

Vong part have been covered above. ISD might be superior to standard Harrower-class dreadnought in some aspects but not in every aspect. Harrower-class dreadnoughts were highly customizable and could be equipped with firepower far greater then standard specs. Doombringer and Desolater are nice examples.

Originally posted by Q99
Yes, with superweapons they have in very short supply.
Indeed, but numbers could be always increased if opportunity would have been available. In-fact, reconstituted ancient Sith Empire was trying to develop Star Forge like factories to construct starships and war material which would significantly reduce time period for manufacturing of such products. One such factory was developed if I recall correctly but it was also lost in the war. The Republic had too much resources to throw at Empire at any given time unfortunately.

Originally posted by Q99
Based on, but bigger and worked on over time.

A Harrower is a small ship by OT era.
Doesn't matters. Harrower could eliminate disparity and even achieve supremacy with superior firepower (e.g. Doombringer and Desolator).

Originally posted by Q99
Once they were understood well, they still were very capable of going toe-to-toe with their Imperial and Alliance opposition, which as we know are much above TOR era.
Which you assume to be much above TOR era.

Going toe-to-toe is not a big deal. Inferior Republic starships had performed really well against superior odds in various battles. Decision-making, quantity and coordination also makes difference in engagements.

Originally posted by Q99
They lost in the end due to total logistics, their ships were still very powerful with their ability to strip shields, absorb heavy firepower, and dish out a lot themselves.
So everybody looses due to logistics according to you? This is not the case.

Losses in wars puts the real dent on the war machine of any civilization, specially if resources are limited.

Logistics is not much of a problem for a civilization which can deploy resources at any time and in any part of the galaxy using hyperspace travelling procedures.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I can easily join the PT/OT/Legacy camp and start bashing TOR era content

This would be an interesting development.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
This would be an interesting development.

A shame it will never happen.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
This would be an interesting development.
It is easier to debate in favor of PT/OT/Legacy era content due to sheer amount of content and information available concerning these eras. And these eras are also more popular in certain respects. I may become one of the best debaters for these era if I try.

However, my fascination with ancient era stuff coupled with common trend of lowballing of ancient era stuff by fans of PT/OT/Legacy era stuff encourages me to debate in favor ancient era stuff just to maintain some balance.

Otherwise, you will get comments like a random Vong ship is more then a match against the best of TOR era ship and that Anakin would blitz Emperor Vitiate. Somebody needs to a put a halt to lowballing attempts to this much level.

My case is similar to that of Revan and Meetra Surik in debates:-

hero to some, villain to so many others

PT/OT/Legacy ere have much larger fanbase, IMO.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Also my belief is quality > quantity. Harrower-class dreadnought is designed in such a manner that it makes rapid deployment of its Starfighter squadron possible and the starship itself can deliver firepower in very effective fashion.

The Vong ship has better quality, though... it has superior fighters... the larger one is just all-around stronger..




Except they're outnumbered and it took late-model X-wings, preferably with special modifications, to match Coralskippers.




Coralskippers are effective against capital ships, and 32 is a pretty small number that are unlikely to make it through fighter screens / interception.




No, they can try and close, but that just makes it a chase while the carrier's fighters eat away at both the Harrower's fighters and the Harrower itself.




It very much matters. A Victory and Imperial are just as efficient, but one's stronger because it's bigger. A Nebula B is highly efficient, but much weaker than a Victory.


I don't know why you think size doesn't matter, it very much matters, larger ships usually have the edge in SW, with even the exceptions not being that far off (Mon Cals are more efficient than ISDs and thus a close match despite being moderately smaller... but they aren't *that* much smaller)

Nor, mind you, is there any evidence that the Harrower has an efficiency edge.




Sure, and Vong cruisers fought evenly against larger ships that had every one of those advances included (ISDs).

If they're an even match for an ISD, they're superior to a Harrower.



True, the difference is slight until the post-OT era (when some advantages do happen. Legacy manages to improve Turbolasers)... however, that still leaves the issue of similar efficiency on larger ships.





Different realities, similar practical effect.




In that they possess no non-biological technology at all... however, in biological technology they are incredibly sophisticated organisms.

They are by no means primitive, they are equally advanced in a different way.




Which has both advantages and disadvantages over shielding- indeed, early in the war they were more advantageous than not, and only later on were the effects more even.




I think you're misremembering things. The Vong continued to inflict heavy losses even late in the war, their fleets were by no-means crushed, but the galaxy had geared up more and more and had the number's advantage increasingly in the Alliance's side. But the fights were brutal and at no point did their ships become easy picking, they just no longer had the initial edge that unfamiliarity gave them.

In the end, their fleets were not even destroyed in fighting, but rather they signed a treaty, got rid of their fleet, and moved off on a living planet.

Have you read the Essential Guide to War? It goes over the war in a lot of strategic detail.





Ships commanding by Malgus, and simply due to getting the drop on them.

If one Harrower is such a fleet buster, even the element of surprise shouldn't matter than much, especially





Problem: Those fancy weapons? According to their inventor, Darth Mehkis, without a Sun Razer those normally take a decade to make.


So yea, you *can* make a Harrower massively powerful, but only by making it cost as much as fleets to begin with.


The option is either have large fleets of outmatched Harrowers... or a tiny few Silencer-equipped Harrowers that are massively outnumbered.







Sure, but the Vong are good at that too.

Going toe-to-toe certainly helps.





Not everyone, but it is the number one reason wars are won and lost.


The Vong lost due to logistics. The CIS lost due to logistics.

The Mandalorian's assaults in the Mandalorian war badly stalled due to logistics.

The TOR Sith Empire had a similar problem with their initial conquests and the need for their logistics to catch up with their conquests.

The Old Sith Empire pretty much never had a chance against the Republic militarily because it's logistics base was so much smaller, they were entirely dependent on the Sith pulling something on the force to win (and even Naga Sadow's ability in his meditation sphere to make a star blow up and do mass battlefield illusions turned out to not be near enough! Once he was countered, they were crushed).


At the end of the day, if you have good commanders and good ships and superior numbers/ability to replace numbers, you have a very significant edge.

And similarly, if you have good commanders and good ships, but pressing too hard costs you too many ships and makes you stop and gives your opponent time to counterattack, winning is a *much* more uphill battle. It can be done, but it's certainly harder.





Ah, but it is. Hyperspace routes are still limited (some are much faster than others, some areas can be slow), and ship-capacity even more so.

Loses are very much relative to logistics. If one side wins a fight and loses 20 ships, and the other side loses and loses 25 ships, but the other side can build 25 in the time it takes the former to build 18, the 'loser' is winning.

This, btw, is a large part of why Grievous fled so much in TCW. As long as his fleet was intact, the war went on. But if too much of his fleet was destroyed at once, the CIS becomes vulnerable and the Republic crushes them. So it was in his best interests to flee rather than get into costly fights, even victorious ones- he'd lose by winning if he did.



Logistics wins wars. Read the Essential Guide to Warfare, which goes into the flow of most of the wars in SW. Not TOR (which was still too new at the time), but many of the others.

Nicely said Q99

Originally posted by Nalaniel
A shame it will never happen.

Why would you want the TOR era trashed? What kind of polarized mentality is this?

That's cute. Problem is, it's the other way around. You refuse to believe that Surik wasn't weakened, because it might actually mean you'd have to disrespect someone from a Revan source.

Again, you keep saying the theory about Surik being weakened is completely wrong, despite Drew effectively saying "I don't like giving definitive answers, but that theory is definitely valid"

Deal with it already.

And no, I've never said the triumvirate was the most dangerous Empire. Nihilus alone was the most dangerous being to ever appear in the Galaxy, probably more dangerous than the entire Sith Empire combined, because literally only one person in galactic history would have been able to stop him, that's just something you'll have to deal with.

Call me a fan girl all you want, I doubt anyone around here even remotely cares what you think anyway, as evidenced by your latest threads.

No, I reserve this just for you, and it's much too fun to give up.

Originally posted by Sinious
Why would you want the TOR era trashed? What kind of polarized mentality is this?

I want to see how Legend trashes the TOR era. ^^

What's the point in trashing the TOR era when the PT is the definite best?

Originally posted by Selenial
That's cute. Problem is, it's the other way around. You refuse to believe that Surik wasn't weakened, because it might actually mean you'd have to disrespect someone from a Revan source.
Where it has been stated that Surik was weakened or you want to promote your theory as a fact?

Originally posted by Selenial
Again, you keep saying the theory about Surik being weakened is completely wrong, despite Drew effectively saying "I don't like giving definitive answers, but that theory is definitely valid"

Deal with it already.
When did he say this?

Originally posted by Selenial
And no, I've never said the triumvirate was the most dangerous Empire. Nihilus alone was the most dangerous being to ever appear in the Galaxy, probably more dangerous than the entire Sith Empire combined, because literally only one person in galactic history would have been able to stop him, that's just something you'll have to deal with.
This is so wrong. He could be blasted in to oblivion out in the space by starships and such.

Also, I don't buy the argument that only Surik could stop Nihilus at personal capacity. I think Emperor Vitiate could as well.

Originally posted by Selenial
Call me a fan girl all you want, I doubt anyone around here even remotely cares what you think anyway, as evidenced by your latest threads.
And they remotely care about what you say? Everybody here cares about himself/herself. Don't delude yourself.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Everybody here cares about himself/herself.
I care about Neph.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I care about Neph.

Of course you do.

Originally posted by Selenial
Again, you keep saying the theory about Surik being weakened is completely wrong, despite Drew effectively saying "I don't like giving definitive answers, but that theory is definitely valid"

I still think my theory is the best explanation. IIRC Drew did claim she'd recovered her natural Force connection at one point, which would be a great explanation since Meetra was only ever an (above) average Jedi prior to Malachor.

Originally posted by Selenial
Nihilus alone was the most dangerous being to ever appear in the Galaxy,

World Razer.

Originally posted by Selenial
. Nihilus alone was the most dangerous being to ever appear in the Galaxy. . .



I like the way you think

Originally posted by Q99
The Vong ship has better quality, though... it has superior fighters... the larger one is just all-around stronger..
Better quality based on what?

Those "superior" fighters are not consistent in their defensive capabilities.

Mark VI Supremacy-class starfighters had to contend with "superior" Republic starfighters, in case you don't know (wait, you really don't know). As I pointed out before, additional factors make difference in engagements including tactics and decision-making. Harrower-class starship permitted rapid deployment of its starfighter fleets during battles (timing factor) and its starfighters and bombers were also difficult to spot out in the space due to their stealthy attributes.

Originally posted by Q99
Except they're outnumbered and it took late-model X-wings, preferably with special modifications, to match Coralskippers.
X-Wing have several models, you need to be more specific.

Originally posted by Q99
Coralskippers are effective against capital ships, and 32 is a pretty small number that are unlikely to make it through fighter screens / interception.
Once again; quality > quantity.

A single B28 Extinction-class bomber packed considerable firepower. Due to this factor, these bombers were often utilized to bombard planet landscapes. 32 of these bombers can destroy any vessel.

Originally posted by Q99
No, they can try and close, but that just makes it a chase while the carrier's fighters eat away at both the Harrower's fighters and the Harrower itself.
Speculation at best.

Harrower-class starships existed with multiple configurations, some customized variants packed sufficient firepower to swiftly destroy whole fleets and even planets.

Originally posted by Q99
It very much matters. A Victory and Imperial are just as efficient, but one's stronger because it's bigger. A Nebula B is highly efficient, but much weaker than a Victory.
Size does not makes a starship stronger, its defensive mechanisms make it stronger.

Originally posted by Q99
I don't know why you think size doesn't matter, it very much matters, larger ships usually have the edge in SW, with even the exceptions not being that far off (Mon Cals are more efficient than ISDs and thus a close match despite being moderately smaller... but they aren't *that* much smaller)
Oh really? Is this why Eclipse-class dreadnought fell in a battle?

Size permits installation of larger quantity of weapons. However, quality > quantity doctrine remains the best.

Some Harrower-class starships were fitted with superweapons which allowed these starships to singlehandedly obliterate entire fleets and devastate entire planets.

I hope you don't become a general, Q99. Kidding, but this is a serious point.

Originally posted by Q99
Nor, mind you, is there any evidence that the Harrower has an efficiency edge.
How can you determine efficiency of Vong ships? We can understand efficiency of machines but not illogical stuff.

Originally posted by Q99
Sure, and Vong cruisers fought evenly against larger ships that had every one of those advances included (ISDs).

If they're an even match for an ISD, they're superior to a Harrower.
Harrower-class starships are a match for ISD, mind you.

Originally posted by Q99
True, the difference is slight until the post-OT era (when some advantages do happen. Legacy manages to improve Turbolasers)... however, that still leaves the issue of similar efficiency on larger ships.
I do not deny the occurrence of technological progression but technological evolution on the whole is not consistent in Star Wars fortunately or unfortunately. Sometimes certain ancient technologies were eliminated and their records destroyed due to moral dilemmas to prevent spread of knowledge of such technologies to galaxy at large because of how dangerous they were perceived to be by some.

During my play-through of SWTOR Jedi Knight story, I was often subjected to choices that had major repercussions. Republic had several superweapon projects in secrecy and their fate were discussed between Jedi Knight and the General; Light side choices are to abandon those projects and eliminate their traces because of their destructive potential even though they had the potential to turn the tide of "any future war."

I assume that Harrower-class starships falling in to the hands of Republic were doomed to elimination to prevent spread of knowledge of its capabilities. This assumption makes sense since we do not see technologies such as Silencers and Desolators being commonly manufactured or even existing in future eras. Yes, certain schematics may have been studied and adopted as noted in some future starship designs but not every aspect. Therefore, scientists mostly found themselves in the situation to re-invent stuff in future eras.

Get the big picture now?

Originally posted by Q99
Different realities, similar practical effect.
In some ways

Originally posted by Q99
In that they possess no non-biological technology at all... however, in biological technology they are incredibly sophisticated organisms.
Ok

Originally posted by Q99
They are by no means primitive, they are equally advanced in a different way.
Not equally advanced but very dangerous in their own ways

Originally posted by Q99
Which has both advantages and disadvantages over shielding- indeed, early in the war they were more advantageous than not, and only later on were the effects more even.
I am glad that you admitted that it is not an infallible defensive mechanism.

Originally posted by Q99
I think you're misremembering things. The Vong continued to inflict heavy losses even late in the war, their fleets were by no-means crushed, but the galaxy had geared up more and more and had the number's advantage increasingly in the Alliance's side. But the fights were brutal and at no point did their ships become easy picking, they just no longer had the initial edge that unfamiliarity gave them.

In the end, their fleets were not even destroyed in fighting, but rather they signed a treaty, got rid of their fleet, and moved off on a living planet.

Have you read the Essential Guide to War? It goes over the war in a lot of strategic detail.
So you are asserting that Vong did not suffer heavy losses?

Here is just one example:

The Claatuvac routes were long considered the stuff of legend, but they existed: Chewbacca used them profitably for smuggling, and passed them to Princess Leia after the Battle of Hoth, giving Alliance High Command a great asset in its struggle with the Empire. Later, Admiral Ackbar exploited the Yuuzhan Vong's ignorance of hyperspace routes by tempting them into a trap at Ebaq in the Deep Core, where their main war fleet was wrecked and Warmaster Tsavong Lah died. (Taken from Star Wars: The Essential Guide to Warfare)

Observation: Vong lost its main fleet in a single battle.

Originally posted by Q99
Ships commanding by Malgus, and simply due to getting the drop on them.

If one Harrower is such a fleet buster, even the element of surprise shouldn't matter than much, especially
Harrower's performance depends upon its configuration.

Doombringer could swiftly obliterate entire fleets of the Republic, as an example. It even did.

Originally posted by Q99
Problem: Those fancy weapons? According to their inventor, Darth Mehkis, without a Sun Razer those normally take a decade to make.

So yea, you *can* make a Harrower massively powerful, but only by making it cost as much as fleets to begin with.


The option is either have large fleets of outmatched Harrowers... or a tiny few Silencer-equipped Harrowers that are massively outnumbered.
You make it sound like as if Empire had fixed resources, makes no sense. Empire was growing and expanding.

Sun Razer project was intended to quicken production of major weapons, it was the ultimate solution.

Originally posted by Q99
Sure, but the Vong are good at that too.

Going toe-to-toe certainly helps.
Not very good, IMO.

Vong benefitted from poor-decision making and lack of proper coordination within the NRDF during many situations. Details provided below.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Fellow member Selenial stated that even a random Vong starship is more then a match for any starship of TOR era, this is why I made that comparison and proved her assertion wrong.

Get your facts straight before you post, it makes you look like a ****ing moron when you post bullshit like this.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Where it has been stated that Surik was weakened or you want to promote your theory as a fact?

When did he say this?

This is so wrong. He could be blasted in to oblivion out in the space by starships and such.

Also, I don't buy the argument that only Surik could stop Nihilus at personal capacity. I think Emperor Vitiate could as well.


Of course, the emperor can beat Nihilus, "'cuz reasons"

No he couldn't, as was evidenced when the republic fleet arrived and "couldn't even scratch" Nihilus' ship. His will holding that starship together was strong enough to mean his ship couldn't be destroyed.

And he said this in the latest Email correspondence that I posted on these forums about 2 weeks ago, that you commented on. Having memory problems dear?

Originally posted by Nephthys
World Razer.

There's no real evidence on him though, and we all know how the Rakatans love to overblow people.

They're the LeGenD's of the Star Wars universe.

Originally posted by Selenial
Get your facts straight before you post, it makes you look like a ****ing moron when you post bullshit like this.
Can you learn to behave or manners are too hard for you to learn?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Oh really? Is this why Eclipse-class dreadnought fell in a battle?

They never fell in battle. One was consumed by a force storm, the other sabotaged by a boarding party.

Facts, straight, please.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Can you learn to behave?

Can you learn to read?

Originally posted by Selenial
Of course, the emperor can beat Nihilus, "'cuz reasons"

No he couldn't, as was evidenced when the republic fleet arrived and "couldn't even scratch" Nihilus' ship. His will holding that starship together was strong enough to mean his ship couldn't be destroyed.

And he said this in the latest Email correspondence that I posted on these forums about 2 weeks ago, that you commented on. Having memory problems dear?
Oh, I didn't realize that Darth Nihilus and his flagship were invincible.

Mr. Drew might have stated it to SU people such as you, his comments are often controversial in private conversations.

Provide official evidence, if you can.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Oh really? Is this why Eclipse-class dreadnought fell in a battle?
Sorry, I meant Executor-class Star Dreadnought

Originally posted by Selenial
They never fell in battle. One was consumed by a force storm, the other sabotaged by a boarding party.

Facts, straight, please.
I meant Executor-class Star Dreadnought, typing mistake.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Sorry, I meant Executor-class Star Dreadnought

I don't understand the point of your post though.

The Executor fell in battle because Hundreds of smaller ships turned their sights on it.

The Executor wouldn't fall against 1 ship of a smaller size, or two ships, or three, it needs an armada to take it out.

Besides, the Executor was built to look intimidating, not to work in massive fleet battles.

Originally posted by Selenial
I don't understand the point of your post though.

The Executor fell in battle because Hundreds of smaller ships turned their sights on it.

The Executor wouldn't fall against 1 ship of a smaller size, or two ships, or three, it needs an armada to take it out.

Besides, the Executor was built to look intimidating, not to work in massive fleet battles.
Firepower is more important then size. This is the point.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Oh, I didn't realize that Darth Nihilus and his flagship were invincible.

Mr. Drew might have stated it to SU people such as you, his comments are often controversial in private conversations.

Provide official evidence, if you can.

You're so naive to larger debates, you just look at what was in the post and not what you've said in the past.

There has been a massive fan theory about Surik being weakened, and NO evidence against it, just a lot of people saying "No I don't want to believe this so I won't."

Their only defense is that Drew wouldn't have tried to write it in such a way, and then when Drew's asked about it, it's called "A valid theory"

And yes, Nihilus' flagship was invincible to every other ship at the same time, only being destroyed from the inside would do it.

And again, you need to look at the big picture. Your argument was that Nihilus could be blown apart in space, yet 4 torpedoes that would obliterate the ship from the inside were placed, and the Exile/Visas both thought that leaving Nihilus on the ship when it blew up would not kill him.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Firepower is more important then size. This is the point.

And the Vong's weapons would tear through the shielding on a harrower and obliterate it, whilst the Harrowers' own weapons couldn't penetrate their armor.

What's your point again??

Originally posted by Selenial
And the Vong's weapons would tear through the shielding on a harrower and obliterate it, whilst the Harrowers' own weapons couldn't penetrate their armor.

What's your point again??
It is not that easy.

Heavy armor plating capable of absorbing tremendous amount of firepower. (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)

On top of such plating, deflector shielding offered additional layer of protection.

Your assumption about inadequacy of firepower of Harrower-class starship is utterly baseless.

My point in this case is that you stop posting bullshit.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
It is not that easy.

Heavy armor plating capable of absorbing tremendous amount of firepower. (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)

On top of such plating, deflector shielding offered additional layer of protection.

Your assumption about inadequacy of firepower of Harrower-class starship is utterly baseless.

My point in this case is that you stop posting bullshit.

You really have no idea what you're talking about, do you?

Vong technology was basically massive Mass-Driver Canons, which blasted straight through Shields. Shields did nothing to stop it.

The massive heat energy dispersed was enough to melt through the hull of any vessel, which caused a loss of Hull Integrity that would either rip apart the vessel or cause catastrophic damage.

This happened to Imperial Class and Mon Calamari vessels alike.



And no, unfortunately, I have every base to make my point that Harrower weaponry wouldn't work on the vong.

The Harrower used Turbolaser Batteries and Quad Laser canons. The Quad lasers wouldn't have enough punch to break through the vong's armor, as they're Light Turbolasers.

Normal Turbolasers barely made a dent, though repeated shots would suffice.

Other than that, all the Harrower has is Missiles, Concussion and proton, which are both sucked in to Dovin Basals and made completely useless.

The Ion canons on a Harrower would serve to slightly, SLIGHTLY, numb the Vong ships to the point of making it harder to detect damage, but that's it.

Originally posted by Selenial
You really have no idea what you're talking about, do you?

Vong technology was basically massive Mass-Driver Canons, which blasted straight through Shields. Shields did nothing to stop it.

The massive heat energy dispersed was enough to melt through the hull of any vessel, which caused a loss of Hull Integrity that would either rip apart the vessel or cause catastrophic damage.

This happened to Imperial Class and Mon Calamari vessels alike.
I am not asserting that Harrower's defensive capabilities were impregnable but they were significant by Star Wars standards.

It is certainly possible for greatest of the Vong's ships to defeat Harrower-class starships based on what you revealed. However, this won't be a one-sided battle as you presume, reasons provided below.

Originally posted by Selenial
And no, unfortunately, I have every base to make my point that Harrower weaponry wouldn't work on the vong.

The Harrower used Turbolaser Batteries and Quad Laser canons. The Quad lasers wouldn't have enough punch to break through the vong's armor, as they're Light Turbolasers.

Normal Turbolasers barely made a dent, though repeated shots would suffice.

Other than that, all the Harrower has is Missiles, Concussion and proton, which are both sucked in to Dovin Basals and made completely useless.

The Ion canons on a Harrower would serve to slightly, SLIGHTLY, numb the Vong ships to the point of making it harder to detect damage, but that's it.
It is obvious that Harrower-class starship would fire lot of volleys towards an enemy starship to destroy it.

And if you consider modified variants, they can literally one-shot any vessel. They don't even need to get in to dogfights.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The Vong.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
THE VONG

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The Vong.

sounds like a punk band

Lolz

This have something to do with topic:

Small warships, corresponding to corvettes and frigates, made up around 90 percent of the Vong capital ships. Most were between one hundred and two hundred meters in length, crewed by just three or four pilots and a squad of gunners - but like all Yuuzhan Vong creations, these warships were living things, and veteran escort vessels could grow to the size of a light cruiser or larger. Regardless of size, these ships were more heavily armed than typical New Republic escorts, with plasma cannons and magma missile launchers on their bows and flanks. Their lean, narrow hulls tapered into points, designed to focus all weapons in a devastating forward salvo - but their ability to defend themselves and other ships was inferior to New Republic ships. This lack of protective escorts was one of the Vong's major weaknesses. (Star Wars: The Essential Guide to Warfare)

The Vong defeats Vitiate's Sith empire hands down, son, accept it. (Star Wars: The Essential Guide to Warfare)

Originally posted by The_Tempest
The Vong defeats Vitiate's Sith empire hands down, son, accept it. (Star Wars: The Essential Guide to Warfare)
I don't accept fabricated quotes.

It's not fabricated. It can be found on page ninety-shutupheretic. uhuh

Originally posted by The_Tempest
It's not fabricated. It can be found on page ninety-shutupheretic. uhuh
You are not a good liar.

Vong have Worldships that are 120 Kilometers in Diameter, they're going to stomp the Rakata.

Originally posted by The Merchant
Vong have Worldships that are 120 Kilometers in Diameter, they're going to stomp the Rakata.

It's not ass-rape if you like it.




I mean, so I'm told. By other people.

The Rakata don't have any firepower statements, don't have any shielding output statements, nothing. We've seen them bomb Tython and it was only making firestorms in woods. Vong can compete with Mon Calamari ships and stuff like that, even Acclamator class tar destroyers can generate firepower that's 200 Gigatons per shot.

Originally posted by The Merchant
The Rakata don't have any firepower statements, don't have any shielding output statements, nothing. We've seen them bomb Tython and it was only making firestorms in woods. Vong can compete with Mon Calamari ships and stuff like that, even Acclamator class tar destroyers can generate firepower that's 200 Gigatons per shot. It was ships made from the star forge that destroyed Taris... Revan and Malaks ships were starforge ships so