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There has to be more than one fight/showings that makes people believe Juggernaut is completely invulnerable to physical damage. Minus his one fight against Thor that could very well in itself be considered PIS, what other showings makes Juggernaut indestructible?

Hey Hulk expert, you might want to start there. Especially the WWHulk vs Juggernaut match that all Hulk could do was a bfr.

Him fighting Hulk doesn't make him completely invulnerable. Especially since Hulk was holding back. Then we have this showing...

2 punches.

http://s30.photobucket.com/user/Hulk3389/media/comic%20book%20scans/juggslayout.jpg.html

Its not that he is its he should be based on the fact he is called The Unstoppable Juggernaut he has been hurt with fire to the eyes by Nightcrawler but he should not have been hurt at all imo.

Originally posted by carver9
There has to be more than one fight/showings that makes people believe Juggernaut is completely invulnerable to physical damage. Minus his one fight against Thor that could very well in itself be considered PIS, what other showings makes Juggernaut indestructible?


The first fight against Spider-Man, perhaps the greatest legitimate win Parker has ever scored on so powerful an opponent.

A masterpiece in the depiction of Cain as unstoppable force; likewise one for the frank depiction of Peter's darker side. By the end of the story, having eyewitnessed a friend rendered comatose and callously tossed aside to die by Juggernaut, then too beaten himself to within an inch of his life, narrowly averting that fate by seconds, Spider-Man grimly looks on as his opponent disappears ... and apparently suffocates.

Arguably, in the final analysis, Spider-Man could not and did not technically stop Juggernaut. But he slowed him down to the point that it made no difference.

Originally posted by carver9
Him fighting Hulk doesn't make him completely invulnerable. Especially since Hulk was holding back. Then we have this showing...

2 punches.

http://s30.photobucket.com/user/Hulk3389/media/comic%20book%20scans/juggslayout.jpg.html

Was that the same storyline when Juggy beat the crap out of the Hulk in the Jungle?

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-_lq4w0Grv5c/TtKsag8pF0I/AAAAAAAAAkw/0-8MEpmVzfo/s1600/Hero-Envy-HulkvsJuggernaut5.jpg

Invulnerability is relative.

Like most terms in comics

Salsa,

The scans you're showing of Juggernaut beating down Hulk are not showing inconsistency.

Hulk has been caught by surprise there. IIRC, he does not even know he is fighting the Juggernaut at that point.

Meaningless even if you prove he did, by the way -- we're talking about invulnerability, not strength, power, and/or overall fight effectiveness.



For this to be an example of inconsistency regarding invulnerability, your scene would need to show Juggernaut TAKING punches from Hulk.

What exactly is he supposed to be vulnerable to if he's the only one GIVING punches ... his fists being hurt on Hulk's face ??



I agree with your overall point that invulnerability is a relative term in comics, though.

I am not showing any scans blue,

He walks through the X-Men's attacks constantly. Constantly bodies Thor too. Plus IIRC he's overpowered Hulk many times and Hulk has to usually BFR him. Wolverine too has failed to hurt him with his magically 'hurt anything' adamantium claws.

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
I am not showing any scans Blue,


Sorry ... I'll blame that on not having had dinner yet.

I actually looked at tkitna's scan and thought it was part of your message ...


Time to eat!

Originally posted by tkitna
Was that the same storyline when Juggy beat the crap out of the Hulk in the Jungle?

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-_lq4w0Grv5c/TtKsag8pF0I/AAAAAAAAAkw/0-8MEpmVzfo/s1600/Hero-Envy-HulkvsJuggernaut5.jpg What issue is that from?

Originally posted by carver9
There has to be more than one fight/showings that makes people believe Juggernaut is completely invulnerable to physical damage. Minus his one fight against Thor that could very well in itself be considered PIS, what other showings makes Juggernaut indestructible? many showings against the xmen. His unstoppable enchantment actually gives the suspension of disbelief that he is invincible.

Jugs usually sustains damage in his fights. No one is truly invulnerable except Fulcrum and/or One Above All. And I'm fairly certain cosmic beings like Galactus could disperse Juggy's molecules over a vast distance instantly, thus ending his existence.

Originally posted by h1a8
many showings against the xmen. His unstoppable enchantment actually gives the suspension of disbelief that he is invincible.


Examples. By the way, he has been stopped.

thor #411-412 & 428-429. these are the comics in which juggy's invulnerability was best referenced/showcased(ala an impenetrable force-field), so naturally they are the first scenes people are going to think of when you bring up 'classic' juggernaut's badassery. however, he was still tanking wolverine's slash-attacks+cumulative attacks from the rest of the x-men WELL before he ever battled thor.

Originally posted by carver9
Him fighting Hulk doesn't make him completely invulnerable. Especially since Hulk was holding back. Then we have this showing...

2 punches.

http://s30.photobucket.com/user/Hulk3389/media/comic%20book%20scans/juggslayout.jpg.html

Something doesnt seems right about that scan. Seems like Hulk is seeing illusions or something. Is that even really the Juggernaut? What issue is that?

And I thought according to you that anyone who manages to stalemate WWHulk is unstoppable.

Originally posted by carver9
Examples. By the way, he has been stopped.


Again. The first Juggernaut battle against Spider-Man.

This website has a good summary of it:


http://www.chasingamazingblog.com/2013/09/29/reading-experience-beating-an-unstoppable-foe/

Originally posted by Cosmic_Beings
Jugs usually sustains damage in his fights. No one is truly invulnerable except Fulcrum and/or One Above All. And I'm fairly certain cosmic beings like Galactus could disperse Juggy's molecules over a vast distance instantly, thus ending his existence.



Wasn't Cain effectively downgraded at this point? Hyperion would have never done this well against Cain during the 7th, and 8th day arc.

Originally posted by Supermutant
Something doesnt seems right about that scan. Seems like Hulk is seeing illusions or something. Is that even really the Juggernaut? What issue is that?

And I thought according to you that anyone who manages to stalemate WWHulk is unstoppable.

Hulk was seeing illusions. One of his illusion made Juggernaut look like his father. Juggernaut wasn't an illusion, Hulk kind was being tampered with. He ended up gaining control which made him wreck Juggernaut.

WWH was holding back.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Again. The first Juggernaut battle against Spider-Man.

This website has a good summary of it:


http://www.chasingamazingblog.com/2013/09/29/reading-experience-beating-an-unstoppable-foe/

Juggernaut also fought Venom in the Madness comic. Venom couldn't do anything to him. Also when Apocalypse mind controlled Hulk, Juggernaut took his blows and still wasn't hurt.

^He wasn't? Juggernaut was one shot away from being killed in that story.

As I said in another thread classic Juggernaut is overrated, he has one or two good durability feats while his forcefield is protecting him (fights against Thor and the X-Men) which have been twisted over the years into him being invincible to physical harm, even without it. People forget the owning Thor gave him once his forcefield was gone, the beatdown Merged Hulk gave him, running away from Venom, ko'd by Onslaught, being hurt by Nightcrawler, phucking running away from Beast, screaming when his eye got stabbed out etc etc.

I remember watching that 90's X-Men cartoon and thinking the same thing because he basically no-sold all the X-Mens attacks and was badass while doing it. As soon as he ran into Gladiator he was treated like the 2nd rate villain that he is. Juggernaut is invulnerable, probably more than most top tiers, but he can be hurt/knocked out/killed just like every other top tier too.

You know what's amusing? The same onslaught who knocked out Juggy got overpowered by Bishop and Invisible Woman.

Originally posted by carver9
Him fighting Hulk doesn't make him completely invulnerable. Especially since Hulk was holding back. Then we have this showing...

2 punches.

http://s30.photobucket.com/user/Hulk3389/media/comic%20book%20scans/juggslayout.jpg.html iirc in that same issue the writer thought that Juggs invulnerability comes from his helmet. I could be wrong though. Good idea for a thread btw.

Originally posted by carver9
There has to be more than one fight/showings that makes people believe Juggernaut is completely invulnerable to physical damage. M

He never was "completely invulnerable" to everything. But you need a power far greater than a High Herald have do physical damage on him.

Originally posted by eaebiakuya
He never was "completely invulnerable" to everything. But you need a power far greater than a High Herald have do physical damage on him.
Not really. Onslaught knocked him the **** out and then got overpowered by Bishop powered by Invisible Woman.

http://i.imgur.com/DrBIWH2.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/2rFcO9u.jpg

And this was about two years after Onslaught KTFO Juggy and he was far more powerful than that version. Hell, Reed bulking up his body was smacking him around.

I read in this forum more than once that the Juggernaut who lose against Onslaught was weakened.

Juggernaut was never completely invulnerable... if he would be, that would mean not even Living Tribunal would be able to harm him

But I think he should be invulnerable to physical damage by the likes of Hulk, Thanos, Silver Surfer etc...

Originally posted by abhilegend
Not really. Onslaught knocked him the **** out and then got overpowered by Bishop powered by Invisible Woman.

Cain was weakened.

Onslaught was above Herald level anyway.

Onslaught also apparently had a connection to the gem because Xavier was apart of Onslaught.

Cain has kind of had an inconsistent past with regards to somethings.
Nightcrawler throws a torch in Cain's eyes he screams out in pain.

Cain gets a truck driven into him and is set ablaze he walks out laughing.

Cain can take Wolverine's claw attacks like Logan is an insect, but then Shatterstar's sword can cut his eyes.

He can bust out of a large metal cocoon with ease but some wet cement stops him.

It's led me to create Juggernaut cohesion theory that Cain's powers are as mental as they are physical.

The more human and less focused he is the more he reacts to various stimuli as a human.

The more focused he seems to be on a task the less things seem to bother him to point where in his league he seemingly becomes invulernable.

Of course in reality it just comes down to writer intent and desire for the character.

Cain can take Wolverine's claw attacks like Logan is an insect, but then Shatterstar's sword can cut his eyes.

His sword was mistical/magic.




This make sense.

Before fighting against WWH, Cain calls Cyttorak to increase his powers, and he said "im not limitating your power, you are". He was limited by his mindset.

Another stance where it is clear is Colossnaut vs Red Hulk. With a angry and violent mindset, he got a power boost and the demon armor (without Cyttorak doing anything). When he changed his mindset, he lost strengh and the fight against Red Hulk.

In regards to Shatterstar, the tip of his sword is magical and even though it's a crazy concept but Juggernaut is weak against magic (even though he is made out of strong magic...weird).

this is a good idea for a thread. it has already served to highlight the fact that there is an overestimation of jugg's 'invulnerability'. i can't believe though that no one has shown this scan:

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg102/Knowsbleed33/Durability/Juggernaut%20OneShot/Juggernaut1997_p35.jpg

it was a cool showing for cain, but his invulnerability has NOT been consistently shown. what is the greatest durability feat juggs has WITHOUT the godblast/force field showing?

i'd submit it is the scan above. but hulk as a similar feat (thanos reduced him to a withered husk and hulk healed almost immediately) and logan has healed from things as bad.

in general, i'd don't think jugg's durability is much above the highest heralds at all. the exemplars hurt him with claw attacks, bedlam hurt him badly through his helmet with psi powers, hell he was even getting pressure pointed in that arc. but people are quick to say that is pis. but, in fact, his being hurt by attacks is more the NORM than the exception imo. not being hurt by guys like spidey and venom? pretty meaningless. can you see them hurting someone like ss? hulk has withstood a full on rage-filled spidey blitz without moving let alone being harmed. even logan's inability to hurt him is contradicted by the shatterstar showing (magic only explains so much as the despayre scan shows). juggs can be considered 'unstoppable' (though war hulk showed that has limits as well) once he starts moving, yet NOT be invulnerable. hell marvel even agreed to show wonderwoman taking him down. unstoppability does not equate to invulnerability and i've never understood conflating the 2.

early on in their careers hulk handled juggs just fine, carver showed scans of his doing even better later on. we know nimrod put him down easily with sonics. i hate having him in vs threads because folks insist his durability protects him from everything so it becomes pointless. hopefully this thread will expose that misconception/myth. imo, based on most showings, his durability shouldn't be very far above high herald, if above it at all. his force field should really almost never come into play except in maybe 1-2 matches out of 10.

looking at his entire history, juggs is a powerful brick with high herald strength and RELATIVE invulnerability, but he is most certainly NOT beyond the power of high heralds to to harm or put down. at least not in all case.

Originally posted by eaebiakuya
I read in this forum more than once that the Juggernaut who lose against Onslaught was weakened.
I don't think so. There is no proof or even implication that Cain was weakened.Originally posted by Xplosive
Juggernaut was never completely invulnerable... if he would be, that would mean not even Living Tribunal would be able to harm him

But I think he should be invulnerable to physical damage by the likes of Hulk, Thanos, Silver Surfer etc...



Cain was weakened.

Onslaught was above Herald level anyway.
Cain was weakened. And I don't think Bishop powered by Sue can make a herald like Superman or Surfer even blink, let alone down on knees.

Originally posted by The Sorrow
As soon as he ran into Gladiator he was treated like the 2nd rate villain that he is

Link for those interested -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYRi7jygVnQ

Also while we're talking about showings outside of the comics, here's Jug getting deflected like a mosquito by a little girl with telekenesis -

http://youtu.be/m5vUQxZB9MQ?t=2m38s

Originally posted by leonidas
this is a good idea for a thread. it has already served to highlight the fact that there is an overestimation of jugg's 'invulnerability'. i can't believe though that no one has shown this scan:

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg102/Knowsbleed33/Durability/Juggernaut%20OneShot/Juggernaut1997_p35.jpg

it was a cool showing for cain, but his invulnerability has NOT been consistently shown. what is the greatest durability feat juggs has WITHOUT the godblast/force field showing?

i'd submit it is the scan above. but hulk as a similar feat (thanos reduced him to a withered husk and hulk healed almost immediately) and logan has healed from things as bad.

in general, i'd don't think jugg's durability is much above the highest heralds at all. the exemplars hurt him with claw attacks, bedlam hurt him badly through his helmet with psi powers, hell he was even getting pressure pointed in that arc. but people are quick to say that is pis. but, in fact, his being hurt by attacks is more the NORM than the exception imo. not being hurt by guys like spidey and venom? pretty meaningless. can you see them hurting someone like ss? hulk has withstood a full on rage-filled spidey blitz without moving let alone being harmed. even logan's inability to hurt him is contradicted by the shatterstar showing (magic only explains so much as the despayre scan shows). juggs can be considered 'unstoppable' (though war hulk showed that has limits as well) once he starts moving, yet NOT be invulnerable. hell marvel even agreed to show wonderwoman taking him down. unstoppability does not equate to invulnerability and i've never understood conflating the 2.

early on in their careers hulk handled juggs just fine, carver showed scans of his doing even better later on. we know nimrod put him down easily with sonics. i hate having him in vs threads because folks insist his durability protects him from everything so it becomes pointless. hopefully this thread will expose that misconception/myth. imo, based on most showings, his durability shouldn't be very far above high herald, if above it at all. his force field should really almost never come into play except in maybe 1-2 matches out of 10.

looking at his entire history, juggs is a powerful brick with high herald strength and RELATIVE invulnerability, but he is most certainly NOT beyond the power of high heralds to to harm or put down. at least not in all case. So I will agree there have been inconsistencies between Cain over the years but over all there are generally always better feats for Cain to go against those bad showings.

For every Shatterstar there are way more instances of Cain tanking Wolverine's claws or Deadpool's swords.

And I do believe Cain's durability was always meant to be higher than herald level.

Even recently in a fight with a depowered version of Cain King Hyperion broke his hand trying to cave in Juggernaut's head.

You talk about Hulk but even in the recent WWH saga Cain went toe to toe with him and he was uninjured from the fight. Carver can mention WWH was holding back but even if he was that version of WWH was known for trying to quickly and in brutal fashion remove enemies from a fight. Look at what he did to Colossus in the same X-Men arc. He broke Colossus' arms without a second thought. The fact WWH relied on removing Cain from the battlefield speaks for how tough he is.

Colossonaut in Fear Itself survived a magical explosion that the Serpent was afraid Kuurth wouldn't survive.

Of course individual writers play up different aspects of Juggernaut depending on the story. Whether it's his unstoppability or his durability.

Also when he was turned into skeleton he was depowered and D'Spayre was using Cain's own stolen power against him.

Do I think Juggernaut can tank everything.. no but at his best against beings like Thor, Hulk, Hyperion it's well within his written history to tank their attacks.

Originally posted by Newjak
So I will agree their have been consistencies between Cain over the years but over all there are generally always better feats for Cain to go against those bad showings.

For every Shatterstar there are way more instances of Cain tanking Wolverine's claws or Deadpool's swords.

And I do believe Cain's durability was always meant to be higher than herald level.

Even recently in a fight with a depowered version of Cain King Hyperion broke his hand trying to cave in Juggernaut's head.

You talk about Hulk but even in the recent WWH saga Cain went toe to toe with him and he was uninjured from the fight. Carver can mention WWH was holding back but even if he was that version of WWH was known for trying to quickly and in brutal fashion remove enemies from a fight. Look at what he did to Colossus in the same X-Men arc. He broke Colossus' arms without a second thought. The fact WWH relied on removing Cain from the battlefield speaks for how tough he is.

Colossonaut in Fear Itself survived a magical explosion that the Serpent was afraid Kuurth wouldn't survive.

Of course individual writers play up different aspects of Juggernaut depending on the story. Whether it's his unstoppability or his durability.

Also when he was turned into skeleton he was depowered and D'Spayre was using Cain's own stolen power against him.

Do I think Juggernaut can tank everything.. no but at his best against beings like Thor, Hulk, Hyperion it's well within his written history to tank their attacks.

hmm, i'm not so sure the feats all balance out tbh. at least not to a level that suggests he is beyond high herald imo. juggs almost never just tanks herald level attacks. he is often hurt by them. i'm still waiting on his best durability feat outside his force field. it may well be the skeleton one, but hulk has a similar feat. thor has taken blasts from celestials. ss has a host of crazy durability feats. superman? the list goes on and on. i don't think it can be said with any true reliability that juggs durability>thor/supes/ss/hulk etc... if it is, it isn't by much imo, and it's not consistently portrayed that way. maybe at one time such was his intent, but i don't believe that to be the case any more.

as far as wwh--i don't buy the holding back thing in any way shape or form--no more than hulk ever holds back, or thor, or superman..... hulk really didn't try to do much though. you're right--he was in a hurry and bfr'd him. that was the best and fastest way to handle him. i don't see that battle as proving anything about either character tbh.

i haven't read or seen that king hyperion book. where was that? was that the same king hyperion who supposedly killed his reality's galactus......?

anyway, i don't think we're too far removed here. you say he CAN be portrayed at his best as being beyond heralds. i agree, he can be, and at rare times, has been. but not USUALLY imo. looking at his overall track record, even if his lows ARE balanced by highs, it still equates to a more general showing in the herald range. least imo.

Not one feat he named for Juggernaut is "beyond" the herald tier.

His unstoppability has always impressed me more personally, however that was proven to have limits aswell.

Originally posted by leonidas
hmm, i'm not so sure the feats all balance out tbh. at least not to a level that suggests he is beyond high herald imo. juggs almost never just tanks herald level attacks. he is often hurt by them. i'm still waiting on his best durability feat outside his force field. it may well be the skeleton one, but hulk has a similar feat. thor has taken blasts from celestials. ss has a host of crazy durability feats. superman? the list goes on and on. i don't think it can be said with any true reliability that juggs durability>thor/supes/ss/hulk etc... if it is, it isn't by much imo, and it's not consistently portrayed that way. maybe at one time such was his intent, but i don't believe that to be the case any more.

as far as wwh--i don't buy the holding back thing in any way shape or form--no more than hulk ever holds back, or thor, or superman..... hulk really didn't try to do much though. you're right--he was in a hurry and bfr'd him. that was the best and fastest way to handle him. i don't see that battle as proving anything about either character tbh.

i haven't read or seen that king hyperion book. where was that? was that the same king hyperion who supposedly killed his reality's galactus......?

anyway, i don't think we're too far removed here. you say he CAN be portrayed at his best as being beyond heralds. i agree, he can be, and at rare times, has been. but not USUALLY imo. looking at his overall track record, even if his lows ARE balanced by highs, it still equates to a more general showing in the herald range. least imo. Fair enough. I think his average generally tilts to slightly beyond High Herald for average but it such a crazy level for feats anyways it is hard to prove. So I can't say you are wrong for thinking the way you do.

Originally posted by leonidas
this is a good idea for a thread. it has already served to highlight the fact that there is an overestimation of jugg's 'invulnerability'. i can't believe though that no one has shown this scan:

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg102/Knowsbleed33/Durability/Juggernaut%20OneShot/Juggernaut1997_p35.jpg

it was a cool showing for cain, but his invulnerability has NOT been consistently shown. what is the greatest durability feat juggs has WITHOUT the godblast/force field showing?

i'd submit it is the scan above. but hulk as a similar feat (thanos reduced him to a withered husk and hulk healed almost immediately) and logan has healed from things as bad.

in general, i'd don't think jugg's durability is much above the highest heralds at all. the exemplars hurt him with claw attacks, bedlam hurt him badly through his helmet with psi powers, hell he was even getting pressure pointed in that arc. but people are quick to say that is pis. but, in fact, his being hurt by attacks is more the NORM than the exception imo. not being hurt by guys like spidey and venom? pretty meaningless. can you see them hurting someone like ss? hulk has withstood a full on rage-filled spidey blitz without moving let alone being harmed. even logan's inability to hurt him is contradicted by the shatterstar showing (magic only explains so much as the despayre scan shows). juggs can be considered 'unstoppable' (though war hulk showed that has limits as well) once he starts moving, yet NOT be invulnerable. hell marvel even agreed to show wonderwoman taking him down. unstoppability does not equate to invulnerability and i've never understood conflating the 2.

early on in their careers hulk handled juggs just fine, carver showed scans of his doing even better later on. we know nimrod put him down easily with sonics. i hate having him in vs threads because folks insist his durability protects him from everything so it becomes pointless. hopefully this thread will expose that misconception/myth. imo, based on most showings, his durability shouldn't be very far above high herald, if above it at all. his force field should really almost never come into play except in maybe 1-2 matches out of 10.

looking at his entire history, juggs is a powerful brick with high herald strength and RELATIVE invulnerability, but he is most certainly NOT beyond the power of high heralds to to harm or put down. at least not in all case.

It is a standard for Thor to slam on him with Mjolnir and Juggs barely feel it. So it's safe to say that his durability is significantly beyond any high herald being. No being in comics has been portrayed as unstoppable as him. Yes, his unstoppable enchantment goes with with invulnerability. Otherwise, you can just ko him while he is charging.

IMO, nothing can physically harm a full powered Juggernaut.

Originally posted by Newjak
Fair enough. I think his average generally tilts to slightly beyond High Herald for average but it such a crazy level for feats anyways it is hard to prove. So I can't say you are wrong for thinking the way you do.

Originally posted by leonidas
this is a good idea for a thread. it has already served to highlight the fact that there is an overestimation of jugg's 'invulnerability'. i can't believe though that no one has shown this scan:

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg102/Knowsbleed33/Durability/Juggernaut%20OneShot/Juggernaut1997_p35.jpg

it was a cool showing for cain, but his invulnerability has NOT been consistently shown. what is the greatest durability feat juggs has WITHOUT the godblast/force field showing?

i'd submit it is the scan above. but hulk as a similar feat (thanos reduced him to a withered husk and hulk healed almost immediately) and logan has healed from things as bad.

in general, i'd don't think jugg's durability is much above the highest heralds at all. the exemplars hurt him with claw attacks, bedlam hurt him badly through his helmet with psi powers, hell he was even getting pressure pointed in that arc. but people are quick to say that is pis. but, in fact, his being hurt by attacks is more the NORM than the exception imo. not being hurt by guys like spidey and venom? pretty meaningless. can you see them hurting someone like ss? hulk has withstood a full on rage-filled spidey blitz without moving let alone being harmed. even logan's inability to hurt him is contradicted by the shatterstar showing (magic only explains so much as the despayre scan shows). juggs can be considered 'unstoppable' (though war hulk showed that has limits as well) once he starts moving, yet NOT be invulnerable. hell marvel even agreed to show wonderwoman taking him down. unstoppability does not equate to invulnerability and i've never understood conflating the 2.

early on in their careers hulk handled juggs just fine, carver showed scans of his doing even better later on. we know nimrod put him down easily with sonics. i hate having him in vs threads because folks insist his durability protects him from everything so it becomes pointless. hopefully this thread will expose that misconception/myth. imo, based on most showings, his durability shouldn't be very far above high herald, if above it at all. his force field should really almost never come into play except in maybe 1-2 matches out of 10.

looking at his entire history, juggs is a powerful brick with high herald strength and RELATIVE invulnerability, but he is most certainly NOT beyond the power of high heralds to to harm or put down. at least not in all case. his invulnerability(in the 'classic' era, at least) all hinged on that pesky force-field. with it active, even the friggin god blast caused him no damage at all. without it, he's been physically harmed by FAR inferior attacks.

i have always believed that writers simply realized how haxx juggy was with a force-field(esp. for an x-men rogue), and neutered his invulnerability accordingly(by way of never mentioning/depicting the ff again.) in fact, i think his ff was only referenced like one other time outside those thor issues. /shrug

yeah, i/we (??) had a long discussion once upon a time regarding the number of appearances of that ff. it was my opinion that the ff was so rare it was actually ooc for him to call upon it, which is why in an /10 match, i'd say he could use it 1, maybe 2 times at most. the rest of the time? he's roughly high herald imo, perhaps somewhat better and sometimes not as good. /shrug

Originally posted by Galan007
his invulnerability(in the 'classic' era, at least) all hinged on that pesky force-field. with it active, even the friggin god blast caused him no damage at all. without it, he's been physically harmed by FAR inferior attacks.

i have always believed that writers simply realized how haxx juggy was with a force-field(esp. for an x-men rogue), and neutered his invulnerability accordingly(by way of never mentioning/depicting the ff again.) in fact, i think his ff was only referenced like one other time outside those thor issues. /shrug It's been referenced in his first appearance, and again in a spiderman comic.

It's been mentioned a few other times in the X-Men series.

Juggernaut was always considered above high herald level considering durability or invulnerability. Now it depends on his forcefield (since writers are always changing their minds), but when Juggie is on, he is unstoppable for the likes of Hulk, Thanos, Thor etc...

Originally posted by h1a8
IMO, nothing can physically harm a full powered Juggernaut.

Nothing on the level of Superman and such.

Originally posted by Reshiram
What issue is that from?

IH #402.

And yes, the other scan is from the same story just 2 issues later.

^ the fella you responded to is banned.

Originally posted by Galan007
^ the fella you responded to is banned.

Oops, didn't realize that. And the issue # took me about 3 minutes to search/remember.

Originally posted by Galan007
^ the fella you responded to is banned.

THEY'RE IN LEAGUE TOGETHER!!!