Luke Skywalker (RotJ) vs. Darth Maul (TPM)

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King Joker
Who would win in a battle to the death?

Takes place on Endor.

carthage
Maul with difficulty

DARTH POWER
Nah, Maul wins easily.

Kotor3
Luke. Maul was losing a saber fight against Obi wan who was a padawan and had to resort to using the force.

Emperordmb
Originally posted by Kotor3
Luke. Maul was losing a saber fight against Obi wan who was a padawan and had to resort to using the force.
Nah Maul beat him.

Kotor3
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Nah Maul beat him.

Not in a pure saber fight.

NewGuy01
Luke has a very valid chance here, though.

Selenial
Maul.

Physicality - Goes to Maul.
Lightsaber skill - Goes to Maul.
Melee combat Skill - Goes to Maul.
Raw power in the Force - Skywalker
Skill in the force - Maul.

Maul knows how to control his force powers better, has shown masterful uses of Telekinetics etc, whilst Luke has only shown raw ability.

Luke had a rudimentary understanding of every form, but not in the masterful detail that Maul practiced.

Selenial
A more in depth look at Maul from my darling historian...

Lightsaber Skill and Physicality.

Trained to perfection by his master, Darth Sidious, Darth Maul was a master lightsaber duelist. His focus on a purely physical victory led him to study and master the Juyo lightsaber, and couple it with his mastery of Niman, Jar'Kai, and his use of the double-bladed lightsaber.

Because of his training in Juyo, Maul was an incredibly aggressive fighter. He devoted his time to the physical aspects of fighting, forgoing the Sith tactic of Dun Moch in order to completely dominate his opponents through martial prowess.

Darth Maul's defense was strong, capable of holding off Jedi Master Qui-Gon Jinn and his padawan Obi-Wan Kenobi until he could lead them into an area to take advantage of Qui-Gon Jinn's weaknesses.

Darth Maul often incorporated his Teras Kasi mastery into lightsaber combat, giving him even greater utility in combat.
Darth Maul is a young, physically fit Zabrak. As such, Darth Maul was physically strong and agile, and possessed a remarkable resistance to pain.


Mentality:
Due to his harsh training under Darth Sidious, Darth Maul became little more than a vessel of hate, especially against the Jedi Order. However, he was still capable of feeling respect for others, granting them quick deaths. He was also capable of forming emotional attachments, showing a genuine brotherhood with Savage Opress.

Darth Maul was noted by Darth Sidious as being very prideful- even arrogant. He believed himself capable of killing every Jedi in the Jedi Temple- even the Jedi High Council- on his own. Darth Maul was often prone to gloating, which was what led to his defeat at the hands of Obi-Wan Kenobi on Naboo.

However, Darth Maul possesses an incredibly strong will. He is often willing to sustain any pain until his mission is completed. He was obsessed with achieving victory at any cost.

In combat, Darth Maul was an intuitive duelist. He would take advantage of an opponent's weakness to defeat them. When his lightsaber skill was insufficient, he would often rely on his tactical know-how to outmaneuver his enemies and move them into positions where he had an advantage.

Force Powers:
Darth Maul displayed a reasonable level of skill in telekinetics, as well as Force Choke and Force Grip. He was also resistant to Force lightning and telepathy.

However, due to Darth Maul's focus on physical combat, he did not use his Force powers in combat unless absolutely necessary.

Though that changed for TCW Maul (Though we're not using him)

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by Kotor3
Not in a pure saber fight.
Maul ignored Kenobi the entire duel, until the end where Kenobi gained nerd-rage, and even then, he was still not straining Maul.

King Joker
Yeah, I go with Maul.

Emperordmb
Originally posted by Kotor3
Not in a pure saber fight.
You and I must've watched a different movie then.

Based
Legends: Maul
Disney: Luke

DARTH POWER
Canon: Maul.

Non-Canon: Maul.

Kotor3
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Maul ignored Kenobi the entire duel, until the end where Kenobi gained nerd-rage, and even then, he was still not straining Maul.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHqdESArkqU

I do not know about ignored. Maul was nothing like Dooku who really did not give ground with fighting an ROTS version of Anakin and Obi wan. Maul gave up a lot ground, was push back by Qui Gon and saved by those shields that gave him time to recuperate.

As for not straining. We must be looking at different movies. Maul double bladed saber was split into one and Maul reverted to using the force to get Obi wan off him. If an enraged padawan Obi wan gave him that much difficulty, imagine what an enrage Jedi Luke would do to him.

Kotor3
Originally posted by Emperordmb
You and I must've watched a different movie then.

Yes we did.

Samurai100
Originally posted by Kotor3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHqdESArkqU

I do not know about ignored. Maul was nothing like Dooku who really did not give ground with fighting an ROTS version of Anakin and Obi wan. Maul gave up a lot ground, was push back by Qui Gon and saved by those shields that gave him time to recuperate.

As for not straining. We must be looking at different movies. Maul double bladed saber was split into one and Maul reverted to using the force to get Obi wan off him. If an enraged padawan Obi wan gave him that much difficulty, imagine what an enrage Jedi Luke would do to him.

Except Dooku had to resort to using the Force once Obi-Wan and Anakin got serious with their lightsaber skills >.>

Also, pretty sure Maul was luring Qui-Gonn to an area where his style would be less effective

Obi-Wan cut his lightsaber, and then barely gave him any trouble, he got kicked in the head after that for crying out loud. It's blatantly clear that Maul had the advantage.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Kotor3
Luke. Maul was losing a saber fight against Obi wan who was a padawan and had to resort to using the force.


1. Maul never lost the Saber fight to Kenobi.

2. Kenobi did lose the Saber fight to him earlier on in the fight while Maul was simultaneously taking on a greater Jedi than TPM Kenobi.

3. Who said he "HAD TO" use the Force to finish off Obi-Wan. Force push is a standard part of a Saber battle just like Kicks are. If Kenobi at least attempted to block the Force push, then you could say: "Maul only overpowered him because he was more powerful in the Force." But the way it happened Maul simply outfought TPM Kenobi.

4. Another 10+ years of training for Kenobi, time Maul spent in a straight jacket, and Kenobi still can't defeat Maul without immense difficulty, and that's in a pure Saber fight. Add in Force powers and Maul probably has the edge.

ares834
Originally posted by Based
Legends: Maul
Disney: Luke

thumb up

Kotor3
Originally posted by Samurai100
Except Dooku had to resort to using the Force once Obi-Wan and Anakin got serious with their lightsaber skills >.>
Ok. That would be expected. Nonetheless he was not giving ground.

Originally posted by Samurai100
Also, pretty sure Maul was luring Qui-Gonn to an area where his style would be less effective
I disagree. The movie clearly depicts a different picture, unless you have something from GL that says differently. The videos clearly shows Maul being back up by Qui Gon not luring. Maul purposely hits his saber on the those shields or whatever they are (I guess to see if it would go through) showing he was not aware of them or expected them to be there.

Originally posted by Samurai100
Obi-Wan cut his lightsaber, and then barely gave him any trouble, he got kicked in the head after that for crying out loud. It's blatantly clear that Maul had the advantage.

There is really nothing to discuss here. You say he barely gave him trouble I saw differently that he gave Maul a lot of trouble. He got kick in the head and landed on his feet and continue to fight toe to toe with Maul. Yeah, Maul had a great advantage.

Kotor3

DARTH POWER

Emperordmb
Originally posted by Kotor3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHqdESArkqU

I do not know about ignored. Maul was nothing like Dooku who really did not give ground with fighting an ROTS version of Anakin and Obi wan. Maul gave up a lot ground, was push back by Qui Gon and saved by those shields that gave him time to recuperate.

As for not straining. We must be looking at different movies. Maul double bladed saber was split into one and Maul reverted to using the force to get Obi wan off him. If an enraged padawan Obi wan gave him that much difficulty, imagine what an enrage Jedi Luke would do to him.
Prior to force pushing him tho, Maul overpowered Kenobi in a bladelock, and Kenobi let out a grunt of exhaustion. That opening created by the bladelock could've been exploited numerous ways. Maul could've slashed him with his blade, hit him, or pushed him with the force. Kenobi was defeated as soon as he lost the bladelock.

In some ways, this really mirrors Maul's own defeat at the hands of Sidious. Sidious separated Maul and his brother, then killed his brother. An enraged Maul attacked Sidious for half a minute, then Sidious overpowered Maul in a bladelock, leaving him exhausted and open to a variety of attacks.

Maul really takes too much shit for this...
Read this: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=14801291#post14801291

ares834
You're over-analyzing it. Their is no reason to believe Maul could have cut down Kenobi there. For all we know, Kenobi could have just as easily blocked the blow. We really can't know.

Kotor3

Kotor3
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Prior to force pushing him tho, Maul overpowered Kenobi in a bladelock, and Kenobi let out a grunt of exhaustion. That opening created by the bladelock could've been exploited numerous ways. Maul could've slashed him with his blade, hit him, or pushed him with the force. Kenobi was defeated as soon as he lost the bladelock.

In some ways, this really mirrors Maul's own defeat at the hands of Sidious. Sidious separated Maul and his brother, then killed his brother. An enraged Maul attacked Sidious for half a minute, then Sidious overpowered Maul in a bladelock, leaving him exhausted and open to a variety of attacks.

Maul really takes too much shit for this...
Read this: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=14801291#post14801291

Maul is the superior fighter. I don't disagree. Yes, his arrogance led to his defeat.

Sinious
Isn't ROTJ Vader(who was defeated by Luke) superior to the most powerful incarnation of Maul?

I dont understand how TPM Maul takes this.

Emperordmb
There were emotional circumstances in that fight.

NewGuy01
Originally posted by Emperor L Stark
Vader is only about even with Maul in dueling skill,

I may argue he's more so.

NewGuy01

Sinious
Originally posted by Emperordmb
There were emotional circumstances in that fight.

I know but still, he was at least pretty close to Vader's level. TPM Maul is weaker compared to when he faced ANH Vader and ROTJ Vader > ANH Vader. I don't see TPM Maul winning this at all.

Selenial
Despite what Wolfninjajedi would say if he saw this quote, Vader was holding back during that duel.

ROTJ Novelization pretty much states that Vader was conflicted, not trying, though towards the end of the duel he was starting to think he might just Kill Luke and be done with it. However he never got to that stage.

His entire fight was goading luke into the Dark Side.

Nephthys
Also he didn't really use the Force against Luke. I believe Luke states that him getting pwned by Gethzerion was what would have happened if Vader had actually used it on him.

Sinious
Interesting. I never really knew the background of that fight. I honestly don't like Luke being insanely powerful, especially in that early stage of his life. Him beating Vader was the only argument I had against Maul but if that wasn't an all out fight, then there is nothing else that suggests Luke's superiority.

Kotor3
Yes Vader was conflicted but less not forget that Luke was also. It is not like Vader just gave him the fight.

Vader's heart was not in the fight, neither was Luke's. Yet Luke was able to beat Vader. It was never Luke's intention to kill Vader.

Also Vader did not use the force when fighting Obi wan in ANH, nor then Sidious when fighting Mace. Whatever way Vader and Luke fought in the end Luke came out victorious.

NewGuy01
The RotJ novel doesn't portray it like that at all. erm

DarthAnt66
Ahem erm...
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/4/48954/2071031-new_picture__11_.jpg
---- ---- ----
Luke Skywalker wins. thumb up

The Merchant
The novelization doesn't say that, they actually say Luke just straight up beat the crap out of him and Vader said he was no match for the guy, that the roles on Bespin were reversed and poetic stuff like that.

ares834
Doesn't say what?

The Merchant
Say that Vader was conflicted and holding back.

ares834
Uh, he was conflicted. That's said in the movies.

Selenial
The novel says (According to Wolf, I lent my copy to a friend)

'You are unwise to lower your defenses,' Vader warned. His anger was layered, now - he did not want to win if the boy was not battling to the fullest. But if winning meant he had to kill a boy who wouldn't fight... then he could do that, too."

Which means he wasn't yet trying to "Kill a boy who wouldn't fight"

AKA, He was holding back.

SIDIOUS 66
TEGTC and TUVD also suggest that Vader was emotionally conflicted, but then so was Luke.

Personally, I don't like using Luke's fight with Vader to determine the outcome of other battles. Maul is Luke's superior in the force and won't be holding it back as Vader was.

FreshestSlice
Nah, Luke was honestly enraged when he fought Vader and it surprised him. He may have not been trying before, but he was when he actually defeated Vader.

Selenial
Other way round bro.

We're talking about Vader not trying...

FreshestSlice
Yeah, but he said Luke was emotionally conflicted about trying to beat Vader, which obviously he wasn't towards the end.

DARTH POWER

Kotor3

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Nah, Luke was honestly enraged when he fought Vader and it surprised him. He may have not been trying before, but he was when he actually defeated Vader.


I was talking about before he defeated Vader. Even before then, Luke still held somewhat of the upper hand.

Emperordmb
It seems like Qui-gon was using that break for a respite more than Maul was, Qui-gon was meditating, while Maul was prowling around like a bloodthirsty predator.

And Obi-wan did not stalemate him in a duel at the end. He caught Maul off guard in the first fifteen seconds, then Maul regained his composure, kicked Kenobi, twirled over his blade, and overpowered Kenobi in a bladelock. This overpowering of Kenobi in a bladelock created an opening that could've been exploited in numerous ways, including a lightsaber strike. Even if Kenobi wasn't finished after losing the bladelock, you can tell from his exhausted grunt that he wouldn't have been able to continue for very much longer.

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I was talking about before he defeated Vader. Even before then, Luke still held somewhat of the upper hand.
The novel makes it clear that Luke is using the Dark Side during the entire duel and when he's talking to Vader is the only time he's actually trying to calm down, is what I mean. Vader is just trying to get him to fall all the way without having to kill him, and Palpatine is hoping that Luke will kill his father before Vader can turn him.

NewGuy01
Is he, really? Luke has lifted a sizable automobile whilst levitating both himself and a non-force sensitive, and halted the Millennium Falcon mid-crash. He also has some pretty dope feats as far as Telepathy goes even by this point, as well as Beast Control. And then there's also that quote saying that he was as powerful as Vader--though that should probably be taken with a grain of salt. Regardless, TPM Maul hasn't really displayed too much better.

His Force Augmentation is also hardly lesser than Maul's. He's woven intricate tapestries with the light of his blade, moved faster than the eye can see, and deflected "storms" and "hails" of blaster bolts single handedly. And, you know, his augmented strength was evenly matched with Vader's, which is also a plus.

As for skill, I myself do take the fight with Vader as a very serious indication of his skills.

"For the first time, the thought entered Vader's consciousness that his son might best him. He was astounded by the strength Luke had acquired since their last duel, in the Cloud City - not to mention the boy's timing, which was honed to a thought's-breadth. This was an unexpected circumstance. Unexpected and unwelcome. Vader felt humiliation crawling in on the tail of his first reaction, which was surprise, and his second, which was fear. And then the edge of the humiliation curled up, to reveal bald anger. And now he wanted revenge."

-Return of the Jedi (Novel)

"But if the son holds any reluctance at the clash... The father does not. Darth Vader presses forward... Strong, skillful, and sure! Exhibiting more deadly invincibility than ever!"

-Return of the Jedi (Comic)

"On the Darth Star… father and son grimly clash! Brutally, aggressively, Darth Vader brings his full strength and power against the younger man. But unlike the first time they dueled in the carbon-freezing chamber of Bespin’s Cloud City… This is a battle of equals. The young Jedi has grown in the interim… And if there is any true advantage, it seems to have shifted to him!"

-Return of the Jedi (Comic)



.

NewGuy01
What the hell happened to my last quote?

FreshestSlice
All those quotes show the real problem with Luke, none of his authors know how to be consistent with him. Lucas obviously wanted Luke to be the strongest Jedi ever by the end of RotJ, but then everyone else says otherwise right afterward.

Based
Holding back doesn't mean Vader is going to let Luke impale him, it means that only his offense was being held back.

Vader would have never been able to defend against Luke's rage attack.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
All those quotes show the real problem with Luke, none of his authors know how to be consistent with him. Lucas obviously wanted Luke to be the strongest Jedi ever by the end of RotJ, but then everyone else says otherwise right afterward.


Nope Lucas says he's not had enough training enough to successfully engage Vader at this point.

NewGuy01
I question the context of that quote. You said it was during Luke's encounter with Yoda on Dagobah, where they just happened to be discussing that Luke wasn't ready in ESB.

Because Lucas has also said the exact opposite.

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