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who wins who dies?

Like Morgan Freeman says "I have no idea"

will know on sunday

Just got back from seeing this. Lucy is a glass cannon until she reaches 100%, at which point she transcends a physical form. Pretty much nothing she can do to Manhattan.

I'm not sure if there is a point in putting Mahnattan in vs threads. As far as we know, he cant be hurt or stopped. I have yet to see Lucy, so I cant properly comment. Unless she gets into reality bending territory like him, she loses.

Well she does time travel, but in terms of matter/energy manipulation, Manhattan shits all over her.

Sahpuulurs!

Originally posted by Arachnid1
I'm not sure if there is a point in putting Mahnattan in vs threads. As far as we know, he cant be hurt or stopped. I have yet to see Lucy, so I cant properly comment. Unless she gets into reality bending territory like him, she loses. Any decent telepath could shut him down. Same with soul rapists.

He's hardly the most powerful character in cinema.

telepathy didn't exist in "Watchmen", so you ave no evidence to support that claim... like, none. at all.

Originally posted by marwash22
telepathy didn't exist in "Watchmen", so you ave no evidence to support that claim... like, none. at all. They didn't exist in Forrest Gump either, but you wouldn't claim Lieutenant Dan is immune to telepathy, would you?

LT Dan is a normal human so we could safely transfer his non-resistance to the likes of the X-Men franchise and such.

Manhattan not having a brain/mind in the conventional sense and being able to exist as energy alone probably makes him immune to Xavier and such.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Any decent telepath could shut him down. Same with soul rapists.

He's hardly the most powerful character in cinema.

kinda agree. He seems uber because he was the only one in that universe that had any real powers. He had no competition so he seemed godlike.
Granted he was real powerful though.

Originally posted by NemeBro
They didn't exist in Forrest Gump either, but you wouldn't claim Lieutenant Dan is immune to telepathy, would you? stahp.

Originally posted by Robtard

Manhattan not having a brain/mind in the conventional sense and being able to exist as energy alone probably makes him immune to Xavier and such. There is no reason to assume that.

Originally posted by NemeBro
They didn't exist in Forrest Gump either, but you wouldn't claim Lieutenant Dan is immune to telepathy, would you?

No, he has a point.


You're committing the limits fallacy. You're imposing an arbitrary limit to a character in which such a limit was not seen.

Manhattan could very well be susceptible to telepathy or mind rape. But he's such a powerful being, with his mind alone, that it would be a stretch and arbitrary to say he could be mind raped by any telepathic being who is not at the same omnipotence level or higher than Manhattan.

I doubt Manhattan can be mind-raped. Unlike the average person, who only has a limited number of things on their mind at a given time, Manhattan's mind is constantly perceiving every moment of his potentially infinite life at once. A telepath would probably get overwhelmed. Xavier had trouble holding onto Mystique and can be blocked by a material helmet. Pretty sure Manhattan would have some way to counter him, if he even registered at all.

yes. doc is weak to everything not used against him in the watchmen film. this is totally not fallacious thinking.

Just saw the movie. At this point, we do not know what she can do at 100 percent. What she possess seems to be all knowing and she is can be anything. There are talks of a possible sequel if tbis movie does well. One thing she has ovwr Manhattan is her humanity.

Originally posted by Lestov16
I doubt Manhattan can be mind-raped. Unlike the average person, who only has a limited number of things on their mind at a given time, Manhattan's mind is constantly perceiving every moment of his potentially infinite life at once. A telepath would probably get overwhelmed. Xavier had trouble holding onto Mystique and can be blocked by a material helmet. Pretty sure Manhattan would have some way to counter him, if he even registered at all. Xavier isn't a very powerful telepath in the movies. Relatively speaking.

When did he have trouble controlling Mystique though?

Originally posted by dadudemon
No, he has a point.


You're committing the limits fallacy. You're imposing an arbitrary limit to a character in which such a limit was not seen.

Manhattan could very well be susceptible to telepathy or mind rape. But he's such a powerful being, with his mind alone, that it would be a stretch and arbitrary to say he could be mind raped by any telepathic being who is not at the same omnipotence level or higher than Manhattan. I guess I would be if I said Joe Schmoe telepath who can telepathically control one guy would be.

Originally posted by Bashar Teg
yes. doc is weak to everything not used against him in the watchmen film. this is totally not fallacious thinking. Why should we assume resistances that were never shown?

Originally posted by NemeBro
Why should we assume resistances that were never shown?


Why should we assume demigods have weaknesses that were never shown?

Unless the telepathy works with tachyons, telepaths have no way to affect a non-localized mine.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Why should we assume demigods have weaknesses that were never shown?

Unless the telepathy works with tachyons, telepaths have no way to affect a non-localized mine. Any telepath with feats of affecting a mind beyond the physical plane can reach Manhattan, I agree.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Any telepath with feats of affecting a mind beyond the physical plane can reach Manhattan, I agree.

I disagree.

I amend my position.

No telepaths will be able to affect Dr. Manhattan. Only reality warpers and above will be able to affect Dr. Manhattan in any permanent way.

Before, my position was, "we don't know." But after refreshing my memory about him, it's going to take absurdly powerful beings to even permanently have an effect on him.

Time travelers, on the other hand, easily win. But they are reality warpers, technically.

Edit - to give you an idea, phoenix, Beyonder, potentially comic book silver surfer, Franklin richards, and so forth. Those types could probably win.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I disagree.

I amend my position.

No telepaths will be able to affect Dr. Manhattan. Based on?

Originally posted by NemeBro
Why should we assume resistances that were never shown?

we should neither assume he is impervious nor vulnerable because there is no evidence for either. to assert either based on unknowns is pure appeal to ignorance.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Any telepath with feats of affecting a mind beyond the physical plane can reach Manhattan, I agree.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Based on?
ddm getting a wet boner everytime he sees Manhattan's big blue flaccid one.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Time travelers, on the other hand, easily win. But they are reality warpers, technically.
Time travelers aren't reality warpers.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Xavier isn't a very powerful telepath in the movies. Relatively speaking.

When did he have trouble controlling Mystique though?

He had trouble with Mystique in DoFP IIRC. He was slowly losing his grip on her.

I wouldn't say Doc is immune to telepathy, but you'd need a cosmic telepath on Thanos's level who can handle billions (trillions?) of years worth of experiences at once. I doubt Phoenix Jean (film version) could affect Doc.

Lucy at 100 percent unlocks GodMode.

Is Lucy at 100% in this thread? If so, yeah, she vastly outclasses Manhattan.

Originally posted by Lestov16
He had trouble with Mystique in DoFP IIRC. He was slowly losing his grip on her.
Lone outlier. He didn't have trouble with Magneto.

However Xavier's tp is physically constrained. It can be amped by ginormous radio broadcasts, and helmets made of special materials can block it out. It seems his powers function in a manner similar to Sookie Stackhouse from True Blood.

I doubt Lucy's tp functions that way.

Originally posted by Lestov16
He had trouble with Mystique in DoFP IIRC. He was slowly losing his grip on her.

I wouldn't say Doc is immune to telepathy, but you'd need a cosmic telepath on Thanos's level who can handle billions (trillions?) of years worth of experiences at once. I doubt Phoenix Jean (film version) could affect Doc. Haven't seen DoFP yet but that sounds stupid.

He was also slowly losing his grip on Shaw before Mags killed him. I know because I just watched it about 20 minutes ago on FX. He was again complaining about losing his grip.

Originally posted by Lestov16
He was also slowly losing his grip on Shaw before Mags killed him. I know because I just watched it about 20 minutes ago on FX. He was again complaining about losing his grip.
Yeah...even though he didn't lose his grip while experiencing the pain of having a coin forced through his skull.

This isn't a well thought out way to lowball Xavier.

Originally posted by Epicurus
Time travelers aren't reality warpers.

Set A of events in a reality.


Set B of events in reality after the actions of a time-traveler.



The events of Set A have been warped into the events of Set B.

Conclusion: Time Travelers are a poor-man's reality warper.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Set A of events in a reality.


Set B of events in reality after the actions of a time-traveler.



The events of Set A have been warped into the events of Set B.

Conclusion: Time Travelers are a poor-man's reality warper.

it depends on the story.

Originally posted by focus4chumps
it depends on the story.



And the type of physics that govern the universe in that story.


Lost had a linear "grandfather paradox can't happen" take on timetravel.


So does Harry Potter (sort of...).


From what we know, that's how reality probably works.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Set A of events in a reality.


Set B of events in reality after the actions of a time-traveler.



The events of Set A have been warped into the events of Set B.

Conclusion: Time Travelers are a poor-man's reality warper.
Nope. That's not reality warping. That's timeline altering. What people like the Q, Alladin's Genie, Haruhi Suzumiya, Bruce Almighty etc do is called reality warping. What time travellers like Nathaniel Richards do is just that; time travel. It's not even time manipulation, let alone reality manipulation.

i really don't like doc manhattan used in topics. he was the only being in that universe with superpowers and never once strained to do anything. how the hell could you appraise the extent or limits of his power? besides being a fanboy or hater, that is.

By admitting the fact that most of the feats he accomplished are hardly something beyond the capabilities of high herald matter manipulators.

Silver Surfer could beat him in a hundred and one different ways.
Thor could kill him with a godblast.
Superman could sing him out of existence.
Martian Manhunter could telepathically subdue him.
And so on and so forth.

Since the prevalence of high heralds in movies isn't really great, we have the other end of the extremely superpowerful spectrum like reality warpers such as Genie(Alladin), Bruce Almighty, Sutter Cane, Q from Star Trek, the Archangels of Supernatural etc. All of whom could just wish him out of existence.

Originally posted by Epicurus
Nope. That's not reality warping.

I disagree in the most fundamental way you can imagine.

Since I've already stated my point which is an opinion on how to use some English language words, there is nothing left to be said by either party.

Any arguments left to be had on this particular topic amount to nothing more than petty word games; off which, I am not interested in playing.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Since I've already stated my point which is an opinion on how to use some English language words, there is nothing left to be said by either party.
I accept your concession.

Originally posted by Epicurus
I accept your concession.

I accepted yours, already, though. It's too late, brah.

Originally posted by Epicurus
By admitting the fact that most of the feats he accomplished are hardly something beyond the capabilities of high herald matter manipulators.

Silver Surfer could beat him in a hundred and one different ways.
Thor could kill him with a godblast.
Superman could sing him out of existence.
Martian Manhunter could telepathically subdue him.
And so on and so forth.

Since the prevalence of high heralds in movies isn't really great, we have the other end of the extremely superpowerful spectrum like reality warpers such as Genie(Alladin), Bruce Almighty, Sutter Cane, Q from Star Trek, the Archangels of Supernatural etc. All of whom could just wish him out of existence.

Here's the problem:

You can't really kill Manhattan...at all.


The only reason I think reality warpers are the only thing that beat him are obvious: anything at all that has to do with this physical plane will not kill Manhattan.

Reality warping such as time-travelers and powerful demi-gods are the only way to put Manhattan down.


The telepath argument is weak, at best, and completely wrong, at worst. We are stuck with reality warpers.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Here's the problem:

You can't really kill Manhattan...at all.
Here's the problem:

Your post is full of bullshit.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I accepted yours, already, though. It's too late, brah. Originally posted by Epicurus
I accept your concession.

Originally posted by Epicurus
Here's the problem:

Your post is full of bullshit.

Grab me a hot dog while you're there, please.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Grab me a hot dog while you're there, please.
Will do, if you let me bang your hot wifey.

saw Lucy.. she dies.. 'nuff said

not too people can take on, let alone beat Doc Manhattan

as for why this thread was made... In Morgan freeman voice "I have no idea"

At 100%, nah I don't think so.

I take Lucy at 100% as transcendence, however the reality warping powers seemed limited scale. Unless she showed some ability to to destroy the entire quantum field on a universal level, she cannot take DM down.

at the very least at 100% she should definitely be able to stalemate Doc. 99% or lower and Doc should handily take it.

Originally posted by Lestov16
at the very least at 100% she should definitely be able to stalemate Doc. 99% or lower and Doc should handily take it.

Yea she was omnipresent however I don't know if that translates into omnipotentence from what we saw at 100%. So in return he could not hurt her as nothing to hurt. I guess we will need a sequel to see her at 100% and if she reforms herself as Depp did in Transcendence and how far she can take omnipresence.

As she said she was going to die and did die. She did create some sort of dimensional drive that she handed off to Freeman, I take it all the secrets and her knowledge were on that drive.

I wish they would have showed more of her at 99%. To get a real basis on her powers at that level.

At that level, she used her mind to explore space and time (similar to how the Beyonder explored the multiverse from his hotel room). I don't think even Doc is capable of outright time travel like Lucy was doing at 99%. At 100%, she transcended a physical body because she was no longer bound by time, and thus can't exist as matter. So at 100%, she should have enough juice to stalemate and even possibly beat Doc, but that is only because she has no physical body for him to destroy. Anything below that, i see no reason why Doc couldn't destroy her physical body if a gunman posed a threat to her at that stage.

NVM, I guess she did actually Time Travel, since she was able to interact with the OG Lucy and the dino. She's still a glass cannon until 100% though.

Originally posted by Lestov16
At that level, she used her mind to explore space and time (similar to how the Beyonder explored the multiverse from his hotel room). I don't think even Doc is capable of outright time travel like Lucy was doing at 99%. At 100%, she transcended a physical body because she was no longer bound by time, and thus can't exist as matter. So at 100%, she should have enough juice to stalemate and even possibly beat Doc, but that is only because she has no physical body for him to destroy. Anything below that, i see no reason why Doc couldn't destroy her physical body if a gunman posed a threat to her at that stage.

There is a lot of assumptions about this. She was traveling the universe with her mind at 99% I thought? Cause right at 100% her human body dies and we don't see many feats after this. We don't know what her powers are above 99% for the most part other then she is "everywhere." I guess we could make a bunch of assumptions but nothing definitive. I might watch the movie again, I like it.

As for time travel they do it differently. Dr Manhattan doesn't perceive time as coexistent, he EXPERIENCES it as such. He can travel though time as conscious being with his mind, not with his astro body to interact with it.

He cannot travel through time, because he is IN and ACROSS time simultaneously. All moments occur simultaneously, and as such time has become an abstract construct for him, one in which the idea of a sequence of moments becomes meaningless.

Exactly. Doc is bound by time. Lucy is not. At 100%, with no physical form to destroy, I believe Lucy has the advantage.

Originally posted by Lestov16
Exactly. Doc is bound by time. Lucy is not. At 100%, with no physical form to destroy, I believe Lucy has the advantage.

But what is her destruction level power at or is she just a omipresent ghost that passed her knowledge on?

I would assume she has the same powers she did in her human form, only amped to infinity. Her technopathy clearly wasn't lost.

So at 100% on her level would be a stalemate on both ends.

Probably. I'd give Lucy the edge due to her freedom of time, but I could see a stalemate.

Originally posted by Lestov16
Probably. I'd give Lucy the edge due to her freedom of time, but I could see a stalemate.

I don't get why thy killed her off at 100%. Kinda pissed me off.

She didn't die. She just transcended a physical body. A fan theory that sounds rather plausible is that by time travelling, she was, obviously, breaking the limits of time. Physics dictates that a physical body must move slower than the speed of light in order to exist. She clearly is FTL, so she must have ascended past the physical plane. She seems to exist as a quantum field itself, which is how she contacted Freeman on his phone. I doubt she can make avatars like Doc can though.

So exactly which Lucy is being used in this battle? While 100% Lucy would appear to have an edge, 99% Lucy can still be killed. Also while she can apparently time travel with her mind, she still appears to perceive time in a linear form: least that's what I gathered from this.

Originally posted by wakkawakkawakka
So exactly which Lucy is being used in this battle? While 100% Lucy would appear to have an edge, 99% Lucy can still be killed. Also while she can apparently time travel with her mind, she still appears to perceive time in a linear form: least that's what I gathered from this.

I'm guessing at 100%. Otherwise its a bloodbath.

Originally posted by Lestov16
NVM, I guess she did actually Time Travel, since she was able to interact with the OG Lucy and the dino. She's still a glass cannon until 100% though. She could very well go back to the time Osterman was going to get locked into the intrinsic field separator and simply stop the door

I've been reading the 'Before Watchmen' comics these past couple of days. It's given me a clearer understanding of Manhattans powers, and he is even more OP than I originally thought. In his comic, he splinters reality to make many multiples and then casually deletes those realities, deciding instead to keep the one we got in Watchmen. He refers to himself as a reality bender. He exists in all universes, at all times which is why it's impossible to kill or stop him. His physical body isn't his physical body, its just how he prefers to perceive himself to look, and it acts as an avatar for his consciousness which is in every reality/universe, at all times, perceiving everything. He's also shown the ability to bring people back to life and it shows him create life in a distant planet in another galaxy after the events of the movie/comic.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Here's the problem:

You can't really kill Manhattan...at all.


The only reason I think reality warpers are the only thing that beat him are obvious: anything at all that has to do with this physical plane will not kill Manhattan.

Reality warping such as time-travelers and powerful demi-gods are the only way to put Manhattan down.


The telepath argument is weak, at best, and completely wrong, at worst. We are stuck with reality warpers. Honestly, I'm not even sure how a reality bender could stop him. Most reality benders can change their own reality, and erase people from it, but how could they erase someone who exists across multiple realities at all points in the timestream? Especially when that someone is more of a high end reality bender than themselves?

Someone like Surfer, or Thor? This is so far above them, it's f*cking ridiculous. No high herald is anywhere near Manhattans level. Even a time traveler doesn't work. He goes back to the point right before he gets atomized and stops it from happening. Despite this, he continues to exists.

Anything he wants to happen happens. It's just a choice away. What an insane character.

Originally posted by Arachnid1
I've been reading the 'Before Watchmen' comics these past couple of days. It's given me a clearer understanding of Manhattans powers, and he is even more OP than I originally thought. In his comic, he splinters reality to make many multiples and then casually deletes those realities, deciding instead to keep the one we got in Watchmen. He refers to himself as a reality bender. He exists in all universes, at all times which is why it's impossible to kill or stop him. His physical body isn't his physical body, its just how he prefers to perceive himself to look, and it acts as an avatar for his consciousness which is in every reality/universe, at all times, perceiving everything. He's also shown the ability to bring people back to life and it shows him create life in a distant planet in another galaxy after the events of the movie/comic.

Honestly, I'm not even sure how a reality bender could stop him. Most reality benders can change their own reality, and erase people from it, but how could they erase someone who exists across multiple realities at all points in the timestream? Especially when that someone is more of a high end reality bender than themselves?

Someone like Surfer, or Thor? This is so far above them, it's f*cking ridiculous. No high herald is anywhere near Manhattans level. Even a time traveler doesn't work. He goes back to the point right before he gets atomized and stops it from happening. Despite this, he continues to exists.

Anything he wants to happen happens. It's just a choice away. What an insane character.

Yea people here say he is not omnipotent, I laugh at them for not understand DM. His power is unreal, I wish they made the before the watchmen movies like in the comics.

This match feels like throwing a cup of air at another cup of air and declaring a winner based on which cup of air had a better movie.

Their transcendental, time-less entities. They're not opponents, they're probably the exact same thing split in to both genders.

Originally posted by Arachnid1
I've been reading the 'Before Watchmen' comics these past couple of days. It's given me a clearer understanding of Manhattans powers, and he is even more OP than I originally thought. In his comic, he splinters reality to make many multiples and then casually deletes those realities, deciding instead to keep the one we got in Watchmen. He refers to himself as a reality bender. He exists in all universes, at all times which is why it's impossible to kill or stop him. His physical body isn't his physical body, its just how he prefers to perceive himself to look, and it acts as an avatar for his consciousness which is in every reality/universe, at all times, perceiving everything. He's also shown the ability to bring people back to life and it shows him create life in a distant planet in another galaxy after the events of the movie/comic.

This isn't an example of Manhattan being more powerful than originally thought, it's an example of the writer of Before Watchman having no idea what he's doing with the much more limited character Alan Moore created.

It's also irrelevant to the movie versus forum.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
This match feels like throwing a cup of air at another cup of air and declaring a winner based on which cup of air had a better movie.

Their transcendental, time-less entities. They're not opponents, they're probably the exact same thing split in to both genders. I like the analogy. Like I said, I cant really properly participate in this thread since I haven't yet seen Lucy, but I know Manhattan pretty well. If she gets as ridiculous as Manhattan is, your parallel seems appropriate.

Originally posted by NemeBro
This isn't an example of Manhattan being more powerful than originally thought, it's an example of the writer of Before Watchman having no idea what he's doing with the much more limited character Alan Moore created.

It's also irrelevant to the movie versus forum. Manhattan wasn't a very limited character to begin with. Seriously, everyone complains that his powers are too abstract to understand, but the second we get something to gauge it off of, you're all too willing to throw it out because it goes against the outcome you're arguing for in a pointless thread. Sure, you can pull the "This is a a movie forum!' card, but it's just showing stuff he said he could already do in the original comic or movie. Of course, we cant go off what he said, because thats not a feat.

Versus forums are so f*cking retarded with their rules sometimes.

Originally posted by NemeBro
This isn't an example of Manhattan being more powerful than originally thought, it's an example of the writer of Before Watchman having no idea what he's doing with the much more limited character Alan Moore created.

It's also irrelevant to the movie versus forum.


All of this was shown or talked about besides him going to the past and stopping the door from closing on him. He talks about creating life when he leaves earth. Just because he didn't specifically say all of his powers as that would take hours to explain, doesn't mean he can't do it or it be talked about here.

Originally posted by Arachnid1
I like the analogy. Like I said, I cant really properly participate in this thread since I haven't yet seen Lucy, but I know Manhattan pretty well. If she gets as ridiculous as Manhattan is, your parallel seems appropriate.

Manhattan wasn't a very limited character to begin with. Seriously, everyone complains that his powers are too abstract to understand, but the second we get something to gauge it off of, you're all too willing to throw it out because it goes against the outcome you're arguing for in a pointless thread. Sure, you can pull the "This is a a movie forum!' card, but it's just showing stuff he said he could already do in the original comic or movie. Of course, we cant go off what he said, because thats not a feat.

Versus forums are so f*cking retarded with their rules sometimes.

Agreed, we can talk about whatever we want. Its like saying cause the movie Man of Steel didn't tell us how he flys, we cant therefore discuss on it because it was not explained in the movie.

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Agreed, we can talk about whatever we want. Its like saying cause the movie Man of Steel didn't tell us how he flys, we cant therefore discuss on it because it was not explained in the movie. Still, he's right. We cant really use a comic in a movie forum, even to understand/explain Manhattans powers. Until a Before Watchmen movie comes out, the comics are pretty much useless here. :/

Originally posted by Arachnid1
Still, he's right. We cant really use a comic in a movie forum, even to understand/explain Manhattans powers. Until a Before Watchmen movie comes out, the comics are pretty much useless here. :/

As the thread is pointless we can use it to talk about whatever we want now. Fight is a stalemate if lucy is 100%, if 99% she loses. Simple as that.

Originally posted by Arachnid1

Manhattan wasn't a very limited character to begin with. Seriously, everyone complains that his powers are too abstract to understand, but the second we get something to gauge it off of, you're all too willing to throw it out because it goes against the outcome you're arguing for in a pointless thread. Sure, you can pull the "This is a a movie forum!' card, but it's just showing stuff he said he could already do in the original comic or movie. Of course, we cant go off what he said, because thats not a feat.

Versus forums are so f*cking retarded with their rules sometimes. Stop being a whiny little *****.

He was explicitly incapable of stopping Russia's nuclear arsenal. If he could destroy all other alternate timelines and choose one that would be an exceedingly trivial matter for him. Hell, stopping WW3 would be a trivial matter for him.

He was only capable of viewing his own timeline in the original comic, he was not virtually omniscient.

In the original comic, he didn't "choose" which timelines were set, he was in fact powerless. Aware that choice is an illusion because everything is set in stone. Arguably this isn't the case by the end of the comic and he stops being so deterministic, but the ability to outright pick and choose timelines outright contradicts his original characterization.

Showing off what he could do? Bullshit. Before Watchmen isn't written by Alan Moore. In fact Moore hates Before Watchmen. It's a cash cow written by writers of varying talent and, in the case of the Manhattan one, didn't get the points of the original character or did and decided that wasn't "cool" enough so made him an overpowered flanderization of his original self.

The outcome I'm arguing in a pointless thread? Which is what? I don't give a dick who wins between Lucy and Manhattan.

Originally posted by NemeBro
The outcome I'm arguing in a pointless thread? Which is what? I don't give a dick who wins between Lucy and Manhattan. I like this conclusion. You may have any dick of your choosing for your salience.

I'll need a while to think about my choice.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Stop being a whiny little *****.

He was explicitly incapable of stopping Russia's nuclear arsenal. If he could destroy all other alternate timelines and choose one that would be an exceedingly trivial matter for him. Hell, stopping WW3 would be a trivial matter for him.

He was only capable of viewing his own timeline in the original comic, he was not virtually omniscient.

In the original comic, he didn't "choose" which timelines were set, he was in fact powerless. Aware that choice is an illusion because everything is set in stone. Arguably this isn't the case by the end of the comic and he stops being so deterministic, but the ability to outright pick and choose timelines outright contradicts his original characterization.

Showing off what he could do? Bullshit. Before Watchmen isn't written by Alan Moore. In fact Moore hates Before Watchmen. It's a cash cow written by writers of varying talent and, in the case of the Manhattan one, didn't get the points of the original character or did and decided that wasn't "cool" enough so made him an overpowered flanderization of his original self.

The outcome I'm arguing in a pointless thread? Which is what? I don't give a dick who wins between Lucy and Manhattan. Said the dude acting like a whiny little b*tch.

His 'before' comic doesn't leave the idea of everything being static behind. It expands on it, and explains why he came to understand how that all works in the first place. Its a kind of 'what if?' comic that shows what happens when he tries to change what he knows has to happen. It's not that he cant stop the nuclear arsenal (do you really think he cant just turn a nuke into a teddy bear?). He just chooses not to, like when he chose not to stop The Comedian from gunning down the pregnant girl in Vietnam. Changing something doesn't change the outcome in that static universe, it creates another static universe. That means two different universes; One where everything stayed the same because he chose to let it, and one where everything changed. His choices ended up splintering reality and causing realities that were pretty bad off themselves, so he chose to erase those realities and stick with his original.

And you're right, about him viewing his own timeline. I had phrased that wrong. That doesn't change in the 'Before' comics, although they do make him more aware for some reason. He does exist at all times throughout multiple realities and universes, but he doesn't see everything that goes on in those realities.

The 'Before' series is a cash grab, but its still cannon in Watchmen world whether you or Alan Moore (as good of a writer as he is, he's a complete f*cking tool) like it or not. And in the case of Manhattans run, it's one of the most highly reviewed of the bunch (a few other characters runs are also great, although some are pretty lame in that they just retread old material). The writers did an amazing job of explaining Manhattans abilities, while expanding on his character.

You haven't argued for Lucy, but you've had a pretty anti-Manhattan stance in your posts throughout this thread. I'm guessing you haven't argued for any one side, because you haven't seen Lucy, like myself. I just have a more pro-Manhattan stance.

Lucy has a vast array more of abilities than Manhattan. She could simply alter his atomic structure, because she can manipulate atomic structure as far as 80%, and stop him from existing at all. Period.

Or she could simply stop time, read his past, go back in time and in all universes that he's in, kill him before he was created.

Manhattan cannot do any of those things(save for atomic separation on the level of around 80% Lucy), and only has a non-linear perception of time. Lucy can literally control time, as well as most of Manhattan's abilities. She can also transcend universal limits, and becomes multiversal at 100%.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Lucy has a vast array more of abilities than Manhattan. She could simply alter his atomic structure, because she can manipulate atomic structure as far as 80%, and stop him from existing at all. Period.

Or she could simply stop time, read his past, go back in time and in all universes that he's in, kill him before he was created.

Manhattan cannot do any of those things(save for atomic separation on the level of around 80% Lucy), and only has a non-linear perception of time. Lucy can literally control time, as well as most of Manhattan's abilities. She can also transcend universal limits, and becomes multiversal at 100%.

Nope none of that will work on Manhattan, to destroy him you would have to destroy the universal quantum field. She was never shown with power to do that she was a reality warper with a human body.

Everyone here is using no limits fallacy on Lucy, she never faced anyone tougher then a street thug.

True, but Lucy at 100% becomes the quantum field, and is comparable in theory to the Pheonix, something vastly above Manhattan.

The OP has to clarify what stage Lucy is at. At 100%, Lucy wins or stalemate. Anything lower than that and Doc will disintegrate her physical body and kill her effortlessly.

Manhattan

Bump
Originally posted by NemeBro
Stop being a whiny little *****.

He was explicitly incapable of stopping Russia's nuclear arsenal. If he could destroy all other alternate timelines and choose one that would be an exceedingly trivial matter for him. Hell, stopping WW3 would be a trivial matter for him.

He was only capable of viewing his own timeline in the original comic, he was not virtually omniscient.

In the original comic, he didn't "choose" which timelines were set, he was in fact powerless. Aware that choice is an illusion because everything is set in stone. Arguably this isn't the case by the end of the comic and he stops being so deterministic, but the ability to outright pick and choose timelines outright contradicts his original characterization.

Showing off what he could do? Bullshit. Before Watchmen isn't written by Alan Moore. In fact Moore hates Before Watchmen. It's a cash cow written by writers of varying talent and, in the case of the Manhattan one, didn't get the points of the original character or did and decided that wasn't "cool" enough so made him an overpowered flanderization of his original self.

The outcome I'm arguing in a pointless thread? Which is what? I don't give a dick who wins between Lucy and Manhattan.
Actually, his inability to affect future outcomes was explained in Before Watchmen; he chose not to alter it because his choices always resulted in a future where the Earth got ravaged by nuclear war. Which again is in line with the premise of the original comic, that established his limitations in retrospect to a MAD nuclear exchange between the USA and the USSR.

In addition to that, his reality-splintering ability wasn't really him physically molding separate universes Franklin Richards-style, but it was him accidentally messing around with quantum mechanics on a grand scale. It was a result of him attempting to look further into his past, beyond the origin-point where he got transformed into a superhuman entity, and once he achieved that, the universe got splintered. Manhattan himself was a powerless, invisible, intangible being in all these alternate scenarios.

Suffice to say, Arachnid1 misinterpreted the comics.

Originally posted by Epicurus
Bump

Actually, his inability to affect future outcomes was explained in Before Watchmen; he chose not to alter it because his choices always resulted in a future where the Earth got ravaged by nuclear war. Which again is in line with the premise of the original comic, that established his limitations in retrospect to a MAD nuclear exchange between the USA and the USSR.

In addition to that, his reality-splintering ability wasn't really him physically molding separate universes Franklin Richards-style, but it was him accidentally messing around with quantum mechanics on a grand scale. It was a result of him attempting to look further into his past, beyond the origin-point where he got transformed into a superhuman entity, and once he achieved that, the universe got splintered. Manhattan himself was a powerless, invisible, intangible being in all these alternate scenarios.

Suffice to say, Arachnid1 misinterpreted the comics. I just checked again. He wasn't powerless. From what I could tell, he was still able to influence the choices made in those other realities causing them to splinter too. After that, he deleted all those realities because they were screwed too.

As for the rest of that, I explained how that all worked here:

Originally posted by Arachnid1
His 'before' comic doesn't leave the idea of everything being static behind. It expands on it, and explains why he came to understand how that all works in the first place. Its a kind of 'what if?' comic that shows what happens when he tries to change what he knows has to happen. It's not that he cant stop the nuclear arsenal (do you really think he cant just turn a nuke into a teddy bear?). He just chooses not to, like when he chose not to stop The Comedian from gunning down the pregnant girl in Vietnam. Changing something doesn't change the outcome in that static universe, it creates another static universe. That means two different universes; One where everything stayed the same because he chose to let it, and one where everything changed. His choices ended up splintering reality and causing realities that were pretty bad off themselves, so he chose to erase those realities and stick with his original.Everything I've said so far is something he actually did in the before comic, so I'm not sure what I misinterpreted.

Originally posted by Epicurus
Bump

Actually, his inability to affect future outcomes was explained in Before Watchmen; he chose not to alter it because his choices always resulted in a future where the Earth got ravaged by nuclear war. Which again is in line with the premise of the original comic, that established his limitations in retrospect to a MAD nuclear exchange between the USA and the USSR.

In addition to that, his reality-splintering ability wasn't really him physically molding separate universes Franklin Richards-style, but it was him accidentally messing around with quantum mechanics on a grand scale. It was a result of him attempting to look further into his past, beyond the origin-point where he got transformed into a superhuman entity, and once he achieved that, the universe got splintered. Manhattan himself was a powerless, invisible, intangible being in all these alternate scenarios.

Suffice to say, Arachnid1 misinterpreted the comics.

If he was as powerless as you claim how on earth did he fix it all? He was not powerless and was reality warping on a grand scale.

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
If he was as powerless as you claim how on earth did he fix it all? He was not powerless and was reality warping on a grand scale. He did it in the comic by going back and undoing each choice he made that splintered reality in the first place. He just made his way back choice by choice until he got to undoing the first choice to trap his past self back in the machine that gave him his powers.

But not before making himself known to his past self, so not invisible either. He can choose to effect other realities just fine. He's not intangible and invisible if he doesn't want to be. Thats just how he chose to view and play with those timelines throughout the comic. He definitely wasn't powerless.

Originally posted by Arachnid1
I just checked again. He wasn't powerless. From what I could tell, he was still able to influence the choices made in those other realities causing them to splinter too. After that, he deleted all those realities because they were screwed too.

As for the rest of that, I explained how that all worked here:

Everything I've said so far is something he actually did in the before comic, so I'm not sure what I misinterpreted.
This is how he "splintered" reality:
http://s5d2.turboimagehost.com/t/19685640_reality_splinter.jpg

By altering his choices. A very cheap exploit of quantum physics on a massive scale. Which isn't really hard to achieve in the comic book medium by ordinary people, nevermind someone of Manhattan's powerset. Chief example being what Scott Summers pulled off in Endsong upon Phoenix-Jean's prompting, when he decided to hook up with Emma Frost, thereby undoing the "bad" future timeline.

This is how he undid all the damage:
http://s5d1.turboimagehost.com/t/19685629_6778317.jpghttp://s5d1.turboimagehost.com/t/19685630_7075867.jpg
By essentially giving up free will altogether.

As I have mentioned before, such a feat is hardly beyond the capability of comic book Surfer. Not to mention that even if we are to take Manhattan's hyperbole-laden commentary at face value, the power required to achieve such a feat isn't beyond the raw energy reserves of Mjolnir either.

@Supra: He was unable to stop all-out nuclear war in all the variant timelines. As NemeBro put it before:
http://i1160.photobucket.com/albums/q487/TheGodKiller666/Before%20Watchmen/Dr%20Manhattan/th_BeforeWatchmen-DrManhattancouldntstopnukewar_zpsf8615c67.jpg
Hence he was powerless.

On a sidenote; photobucket has evolved into the absolute worst image sharing site I know of today.

Originally posted by Epicurus
This is how he "splintered" reality:
http://s5d2.turboimagehost.com/t/19685640_reality_splinter.jpg

By altering his choices. A very cheap exploit of quantum physics on a massive scale. Which isn't really hard to achieve in the comic book medium by ordinary people, nevermind someone of Manhattan's powerset. Chief example being what Scott Summers pulled off in Endsong upon Phoenix-Jean's prompting, when he decided to hook up with Emma Frost, thereby undoing the "bad" future timeline.

This is how he undid all the damage:
http://s5d1.turboimagehost.com/t/19685629_6778317.jpghttp://s5d1.turboimagehost.com/t/19685630_7075867.jpg
By essentially giving up free will altogether.

As I have mentioned before, such a feat is hardly beyond the capability of comic book Surfer. Not to mention that even if we are to take Manhattan's hyperbole-laden commentary at face value, the power required to achieve such a feat isn't beyond the raw energy reserves of Mjolnir either.

@Supra: He was unable to stop all-out nuclear war in all the variant timelines. As NemeBro put it before:
http://i1160.photobucket.com/albums/q487/TheGodKiller666/Before%20Watchmen/Dr%20Manhattan/th_BeforeWatchmen-DrManhattancouldntstopnukewar_zpsf8615c67.jpg
Hence he was powerless.

On a sidenote; photobucket has evolved into the absolute worst image sharing site I know of today. I realize how all that worked too. It's something I explained earlier in the thread. The nature of the choices were varied though too. One of the choices was in that scene were his father opened the box he was hiding in after it for riddled with bullets (his childhood). In one reality, he made himself live. In the other, he was found dead and full of holes. Another choice was the one he made to bring his father back to life in later age. All his choices weren't simple left and right choices. They were him reality bending to change the outcome. Yes, the choices aren't him molding the entire universe to whatever image he would want (I never claimed it was), but its still far above Thor, SS, or Scott Summers. That was him existing as one consciousness at all points in the timeline and altering whatever he saw fit to alter. Creating (not from scratch of course) multiple different realities and deleting them simultaneously while playing with life, death and reality. Even the realities where he tried to make himself cease to exist or die didn't kill or slow him down. All of this happened probably in an instant for him, since he exists and functions at all points in time at the same time. That just seems far above Thor, Surfer, or Summers by good amount.

Thats why I don't see him having trouble with nukes. He should be able to turn the uranium (or plutonium, or any other element) in any nuke into sand. I'm assuming the main thing that stops him from doing just that is the loss of the ability to see past the nukes essentially blocking him from knowing exactly where the nukes hit and acting accordingly. I wouldn't call that powerless. He has the power to do something about it. He just had the same limit he had in the original comic where he couldn't see the future any more until after a certain massive event occurred. That blocks him from knowing where the nukes hit.

And even then, why cant he just go to the moon and watch from space before the nukes hit? If he has the ability to process small events on an atomic scale that pass so fast most would say they didn't even happen, spotting some nukes from orbit or something like that should be childs play for him, right? That seems like PIS more than anything TBH

Unless you mean him being powerless in a more figurative sense in which case, sure. He didn't stop nuclear war from happening ultimately. He did stop the cuban missile crisis from occurring with a choice though. I'm assuming the problem was that there was always more people with nukes to start a war, so it happened in different timelines for different reasons. It didn't matter if he stopped one, because it would happen for another reason. Which yes, is why he decided to stop messing with reality altogether and just let whatever happens in his original reality happen.

God, that comic was f*cking awesome. I loved understanding Manhattans original reasoning to not save the pregnant Vietnamese. Having the background on why he acted the way he acted at different points in the original is kind of cool.

And your images are fine. I actually prefer them like that, because I can just click on them to enlarge as opposed to having them just blow up the page. It's an improvement.

Originally posted by Arachnid1
I realize how all that worked too. It's something I explained earlier in the thread. The nature of the choices were varied though too. One of the choices was in that scene were his father opened the box he was hiding in after it for riddled with bullets (his childhood). In one reality, he made himself live. In the other, he was found dead and full of holes. Another choice was the one he made to bring his father back to life in later age. All his choices weren't simple left and right choices. They were him reality bending to change the outcome. Yes, the choices aren't him molding the entire universe to whatever image he would want (I never claimed it was), but its still far above Thor, SS, or Scott Summers. That was him existing as one consciousness at all points in the timeline and altering whatever he saw fit to alter. Creating (not from scratch of course) multiple different realities and deleting them simultaneously while playing with life, death and reality. Even the realities where he tried to make himself cease to exist or die didn't kill or slow him down. All of this happened probably in an instant for him, since he exists and functions at all points in time at the same time. That just seems far above Thor, Surfer, or Summers by good amount.

No it's not. In Phoenix:Endsong, Summers performed the exact same feat which Manhattan did, by altering his choices, and even the handbook bios corroborate the claim. And he did this despite not even having the type of powerset of a high end matter manipulator like Dr Manhattan or the Plutonian. Lol, the Silver Surfer has scared a reality warper into wishing her powers away when faced with the prospect of fighting him, and Thor's godblast has brought omnipotent beings to their knees.
Originally posted by Arachnid1

Thats why I don't see him having trouble with nukes.
If that's the case, then why did he fail to prevent worldwide nuclear destruction in every single reality which he "created"?
Originally posted by Arachnid1

And even then, why cant he just go to the moon and watch from space before the nukes hit? If he has the ability to process small events on an atomic scale that pass so fast most would say they didn't even happen, spotting some nukes from orbit or something like that should be childs play for him, right? That seems like PIS more than anything TBH

Because it's mostly hyperbole. Recall, that we never actually see him performing that small-event feat witnessing feat. As opposed to this, Nate Grey(who can actually perceive Planck time, the shortest unit of time physically possible), was unable to figure out a way to defeat Ares. If Nate Grey, who actually has the Planck time feat(which is what Manhattan's claim alludes to when he says that he has witnessed events so short and fast that they could hardly have been said to have occurred at all), cannot defeat a being below Thor, then what makes you think Manhattan can?

Heck, now that I brought up Nate, I'll also mention how Surfer completely dominated and overpowered God-Cable, who eventually turned out to be a non-corporeal being composed of pure psi energy.
Originally posted by Arachnid1

Unless you mean him being powerless in a more figurative sense in which case, sure. He didn't stop nuclear war from happening ultimately. He did stop the cuban missile crisis from occurring with a choice though. I'm assuming the problem was that there was always more people with nukes to start a war, so it happened in different timelines for different reasons. It didn't matter if he stopped one, because it would happen for another reason. Which yes, is why he decided to stop messing with reality altogether and just let whatever happens in his original reality happen.

He didn't because he couldn't. Nuclear war was the one constant that remained in all the realities that he traversed, with the exception of the prime reality(which was saved due to Ozy's efforts, not Manhattan's).
Originally posted by Arachnid1

God, that comic was f*cking awesome. I loved understanding Manhattans original reasoning to not save the pregnant Vietnamese. Having the background on why he acted the way he acted at different points in the original is kind of cool.

And your images are fine. I actually prefer them like that, because I can just click on them to enlarge as opposed to having them just blow up the page. It's an improvement.
Yes, I did admit that it laid the background for why he couldn't intervene to change a future outcome. Though the premise was stupid still.

3 of those images aren't photobucket-based at all though. I used turboimagehost when the photobucket thumbs and links repeatedly failed to work.

Photobucket was an absolute horror to work with yesterday.

i was disappointed with "Lucy".

Based on the hype i was expecting some trans level shit. She did a lot of thing differently than what Manhattan was shown capable of doing, but i didn't see her do anything that puts her above him.