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Mace and Obi wan go to Maul's hideout only to find he had some friends over.

Force, sabers, all out

Unfortunately, probably team 1. Krayt piggybacks Malgus to victory.

Krayt and Malgus.

The Sith win with mid-high difficulty. But i dont see Mace killing Krayt and Malgus on his own.

Team 1.

Obi-Wan is out of his depth.

Not really. Team 1 wins, though.

He's not withstanding either of their Force attacks. He gets the Dooku treatment.

Jedi, cause Vapaad.

Obi Wan would be out of his depth but neither sith would have time for force attacks with both Windu and Kenobi coming at them...

Sometimes I think that even if you put him up against half the Sith in the mythos people would still give Mace the win cause of Vapaad. It's not that good. It would only bring him up to their general level, he's not beating 2 high-level Sith at once with it.

And what suggests they wouldn't get the chance? All it takes is a raised hand, obviously they can get off a Force attack before Kenobi and Mace physically run over and assualt them. And even then Kenobi isn't lasting long against whichever Sith he faces or pressing them hard enough so that they can't get off a Force attack. If Dooku can Force pwn him while also fighting Anakin, these guys can do it while fighting Kenobi on his own.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Sometimes I think that even if you put him up against half the Sith in the mythos people would still give Mace the win cause of Vapaad. It's not that good.


Yes, it is that good. I think you're just mad because KoTOR characters don't have vapaad.

I only chose Krayt and Malgus so I wouldn't look like such a PT fanboy, but Mace could probably solo every sith in history.

Well it's Mauls Hideout, so it's close quarters.

And Mace's Vapaad is "A Superconducting loop" that redirects "ALL" Dark Side energy thrown at him.

Which means if he faces two high level sith, he can throw both their power back at them, and even concentrate it into one of them. It effectively becomes Krayt and Windu vs Malgus.

We had a battlezone debate on Malgus vs Kenobi which can be found here: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=661477

Which could be interesting to apply here.

"Battlezone"? Man this site has infected the net.

Originally posted by Selenial
Well it's Mauls Hideout, so it's close quarters.

And Mace's Vapaad is "A Superconducting loop" that redirects "ALL" Dark Side energy thrown at him.

Which means if he faces two high level sith, he can throw both their power back at them, and even concentrate it into one of them. It effectively becomes Krayt and Windu vs Malgus.

We had a battlezone debate on Malgus vs Kenobi which can be found here: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=661477

Which could be interesting to apply here.

Apart from his duel with Palpatine Vaapad was never used effectively and guaranteed a victory for Windu in combat against Bulq, Maul. or Vastor. He was even afraid to use it when confronting Vastor on Haruun Kal. Its not as effective as one is lead to believe, Windu's dueling abilities while substantial are not enough to one shot either Sith. Wind could defeat either of them in single combat, but when they inevitably take out Kenobi he is done for.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Mace could probably solo every sith in history.


At the same time.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yes, it is that good. I think you're just mad because KoTOR characters don't have vapaad.

I only chose Krayt and Malgus so I wouldn't look like such a PT fanboy, but Mace could probably solo every sith in history.

Lol wut? I'm not jealous of it, I just think it's dumb to use it as an instawin button in every thread without consideration. He's not beating 2 of the most powerful Sith of all time at the same time. He can't even comfortably beat Dooku.

Not at the same damn time and not without effort or in a good duel. Malgus or Krayt would last a heck of a lot longer against Windu than Kenobi would against them.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
At the same time.

Jesus' holy shit.

Originally posted by Selenial
Well it's Mauls Hideout, so it's close quarters.

And Mace's Vapaad is "A Superconducting loop" that redirects "ALL" Dark Side energy thrown at him.

Which means if he faces two high level sith, he can throw both their power back at them, and even concentrate it into one of them. It effectively becomes Krayt and Windu vs Malgus.

We had a battlezone debate on Malgus vs Kenobi which can be found here: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=661477

Which could be interesting to apply here.

Maces Vapaad was straining against Sidious' lightning. It is not capable of infinite defense, absorption and reflection. He would be overwhelmed unless you think that RotS Sidious' power is equal to or greater than Krayt and Malgus put together, which I find a lolsworthy concept to consider.

Theres no proof that he can feed off of two Sith to become more powerful than either. All that can be said is that he would be elevated to their level, at which point the two of them would overwhelm him with the Force or a lightsaber.

Your Battlezone threads seem like you're heavily scripting the fight.

Also Malgus would crush Kenobi in under 10 seconds.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Jesus' holy shit.


Lol

I read your mind, and had to clarify.

You're trolling me right? You have to be trolling me.

Originally posted by carthage
Apart from his duel with Palpatine Vaapad was never used effectively and guaranteed a victory for Windu in combat against Bulq, Maul. or Vastor. He was even afraid to use it when confronting Vastor on Haruun Kal. Its not as effective as one is lead to believe, Windu's dueling abilities while substantial are not enough to one shot either Sith. Wind could defeat either of them in single combat, but when they inevitably take out Kenobi he is done for.

That's because, in my opinion at least, Windu's a powerful enough force user to have beaten Dooku and Ventress, Bulq or Vastor without using Vapaad. Vapaad is an amp that's meant to be used to close the gap between you and someone else, why would he use it on people who are far less powerful than he is?

It'd be a huge effort for windu to pull it off in this thread but it has to be considered.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Maces Vapaad was straining against Sidious' lightning. It is not capable of infinite defense, absorption and reflection. He would be overwhelmed unless you think that RotS Sidious' power is equal to or greater than Krayt and Malgus put together, which I find a lolsworthy concept to consider.

Also Malgus would crush Kenobi in under 10 seconds.

Which is more a point for Sidious Lightning (You know, most powerful sith in history and all) than Windu's vapaad.

Let's not that Sidious lightning was literally bending Windu's blade back at him, a feat that's never been achieved or even remotely closed in on in the History of Star wars.
Not even by your beloved Vitiate.

And that's your opinion, you're a raging TOR fanboy and I don't take any arguments of yours in threads that pit Tor characters vs Non tor characters seriously anyway, so I don't care about your opinion.

And yes I'm allowed to say that. You all call me a Kotor fangirl, and that Era's not here right now, please call again later.

Originally posted by Selenial
That's because, in my opinion at least, Windu's a powerful enough force user to have beaten Dooku and Ventress, Bulq or Vastor without using Vapaad. Vapaad is an amp that's meant to be used to close the gap between you and someone else, why would he use it on people who are far less powerful than he is?

It'd be a huge effort for windu to pull it off in this thread but it has to be considered.

Yeah, but he lost the duel with Vastor and he's never confirmed to have beaten Dooku. Also as I mentioned if it was an effective amp he would've done better against Maul. In terms of showings apart from Palpatine, it seems to be only something that works in theory more than actual feats.

Originally posted by Selenial
That's because, in my opinion at least, Windu's a powerful enough force user to have beaten Dooku and Ventress, Bulq or Vastor without using Vapaad. Vapaad is an amp that's meant to be used to close the gap between you and someone else, why would he use it on people who are far less powerful than he is?


Vapaad is Windu's style, what makes you think he didn't used it against Ventress and Bulq?

Originally posted by carthage
Yeah, but he lost the duel with Vastor and he's never confirmed to have beaten Dooku. Also as I mentioned if it was an effective amp he would've done better against Maul. In terms of showings apart from Palpatine, it seems to be only something that works in theory more than actual feats.
Vaapad probably works better with actually channeling power than it does in increasing saber prowess, I guess.

As for Malgus and Kenobi:

If Dooku can do it with minimal effort, and Maul can do it some effort, than Malgus should be able to at least TK him. I wouldn't say crush, though.

Originally posted by Selenial
Which is more a point for Sidious Lightning (You know, most powerful sith in history and all) than Windu's vapaad.

Let's not that Sidious lightning was literally bending Windu's blade back at him, a feat that's never been achieved or even remotely closed in on in the History of Star wars.
Not even by your beloved Vitiate.

And that's your opinion, you're a raging TOR fanboy and I don't take any arguments of yours in threads that pit Tor characters vs Non tor characters seriously anyway, so I don't care about your opinion.

And yes I'm allowed to say that. You all call me a Kotor fangirl, and that Era's not here right now, please call again later.

And how does that reply to my point? Vapaad has limits, which the two will surpass and overpower him. Plus, they can just pwn him with TK, which wouldn't get reflected back or effected by Vapaad.

That never actually happened though so I don't know what that's supposed to prove. In fact, in the movie Windu is the one constantly pressing his lightsaber forward towards Sidious, not getting pushed back.

Wow, douche much? I don't know what I did to deserve this, I haven't even ripped on your Kotor bias that much. Although you're almost as big of a PT fangirl in my estimation, for whats its worth. But whatever, I'm not gonna hold that against you.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Vapaad is Windu's style, what makes you think he didn't used it against Ventress and Bulq?

I'm talking about the force aspects of it.

You don't have to use the force aspects to use the form.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And how does that reply to my point? Vapaad has limits, which the two will surpass and overpower him. Plus, they can just pwn him with TK, which wouldn't get reflected back or effected by Vapaad.

That never actually happened though so I don't know what that's supposed to prove. In fact, in the movie Windu is the one constantly pressing his lightsaber forward towards Sidious, not getting pushed back.

Wow, douche much? I don't know what I did to deserve this, I haven't even ripped on your Kotor bias that much. Although you're almost as big of a PT fangirl in my estimation, for whats its worth. But whatever, I'm not gonna hold that against you.

1) Vapaad doesn't have limits, that's kind of the point.

2) Novel.

3) You're just generally starting to annoy me with your "I'm right you're wrong this Tor character anally molests that one" attitude.

Originally posted by carthage
Yeah, but he lost the duel with Vastor and he's never confirmed to have beaten Dooku. Also as I mentioned if it was an effective amp he would've done better against Maul. In terms of showings apart from Palpatine, it seems to be only something that works in theory more than actual feats.

Again, that duel probably lasted about as long as mauls duel with Sidious (The solo part of it)

Again, Windu > Maul, so Windu wouldn't be using the "Superconducting loop" aspects of Vapaad, it'd be a massive strain for literally no gain, so it would come down to a straight up Saber fight.

And as we've seen, Maul can keep up with Sidious in straight up Sabers, he's an impressive duelist.

But if that's the case they why didn't it help him get an extra boost to defeat Maul? Maul dodged that explosion where Windu got taken out by it, if he's receiving an amp that equals and or surpasses the amp he's receiving from the darksider- why didn't his speed reflect that?

Vaapad does have limits. Sidious pushed it to said limits.

Originally posted by Selenial
I'm talking about the force aspects of it.

You don't have to use the force aspects to use the form.
If you're not actually using the Force aspect, you aren't using Vaapad, and the Force is all but mandatory for most saber forms either way.
Originally posted by ares834
Vaapad does have limits. Sidious pushed it to said limits.
You could even make a case that Sidious was able to push past and break those limits.

I think the point of vapaad is to allow Mace to fight exactly like a sith, without succumbing to the dark side. He uses his own rage and feeds on his opponents rage. I don't think Windu actually taps into the power of his opponents, just that their raw emotions allow him draw more heavily on his own power (just as a sith can do). I think his performance against Sidious was him using all the raw power he had at his disposal to it's fullest extent, which is still basically an amp so to speak, just not from an outside source of power.

Originally posted by ares834
Vaapad does have limits. Sidious pushed it to said limits.

Those were Windu's limits IMO, but it's debatable.

Originally posted by Selenial
Again, that duel probably lasted about as long as mauls duel with Sidious (The solo part of it)

Again, Windu > Maul, so Windu wouldn't be using the "Superconducting loop" aspects of Vapaad, it'd be a massive strain for literally no gain, so it would come down to a straight up Saber fight.

And as we've seen, Maul can keep up with Sidious in straight up Sabers, he's an impressive duelist.

I'm not really seeing anything at this point that puts him above Maul (at least by much). When considering all of his showings he's been pressed by Bulq, Grievous, and now officially Maul (who is slightly less skilled). The length of time is irrelevant to the amp Mace conceivably should've received. The Emperor was also massively holding back in his duel with Maul, whereas Mace had two amps when he fought him.

Originally posted by Selenial
1) Vapaad doesn't have limits, that's kind of the point.

2) Novel.

3) You're just generally starting to annoy me with your "I'm right you're wrong this Tor character anally molests that one" attitude.

1) Yeah but no. It does have limits.

2) Which contradicts the movies portrayal. Canon dictates the movie takes precedence.

3) Says the girl who came to this forum to educate us on the truth about star wars and constantly mocks mine and others opinions. When I state "so and so crushes so and so", I'm just stating my opinion. I may be stating it as a "truth" but thats just a way of speaking, I know it's merely my own estimation.

Originally posted by Selenial
Those were Windu's limits IMO, but it's debatable.

"This was beyond Vaapad"

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
If you're not actually using the Force aspect, you aren't using Vaapad, and the Force is all but mandatory for most saber forms either way.

But there is a difference in the force aspects of the Force Speed that all Vapaad wielders use, and the rage, to the way Windu used it in his duel with Sidious.

Here's the thing. Normal Vapaad applications are lightning speed using the force to bolster, and channeling your own dark energies.

In his fight with Sidious, he had no choice but to fully embrace his Dark Energies, and that in turn made him stronger. This strength made Sidious more angry, which in turn fed Windu, and the cycle continued to repeat, allowing them both to reach heights of power that neither had ever shown before, culminating in a stalemate where Sidious threw everything he had at Windu, and Windu barely overcoming it.

It's untold levels of Vapaad, but if you get Malgus and Krayt fueling their hatred at the same time he could reach it once more.


So yes, the limits Sidious and Mace reached were their own limits, and the limits of the Dark Side itself.

Originally posted by Nephthys
1) Yeah but no. It does have limits.

2) Which contradicts the movies portrayal. Canon dictates the movie takes precedence.

3) Says the girl who came to this forum to educate us on the truth about star wars and constantly mocks mine and others opinions. When I state "so and so crushes so and so", I'm just stating my opinion. I may be stating it as a "truth" but thats just a way of speaking, I know it's merely my own estimation.

1) That's your opinion, manneyus.

2) No it doesn't, It just goes into way more detail.

3) Actually, I came to this forum to annoy LeGenD, and have a place where I could constantly put this down. Unless you're trying to tell me that LeGenD is always correct? And I don't mock everyones opinions, just LeGenD's, sometimes Ant, and you.
And stop acting like that's not a common sight on these boards anyway.

Originally posted by carthage
I'm not really seeing anything at this point that puts him above Maul (at least by much). When considering all of his showings he's been pressed by Bulq, Grievous, and now officially Maul (who is slightly less skilled). The length of time is irrelevant to the amp Mace conceivably should've received. The Emperor was also massively holding back in his duel with Maul, whereas Mace had two amps when he fought him.

I'm talking about Force mastery and abilities here, seeing as again, if a Vapaad user can tap into his own rage, as Windu does, he never needs the Dark Side amp of someone else he's facing, he only had that in his duel with Sidious thanks to the ridiculous amounts of Dark Energy that Sidious possessed.

Oh, and I don't think Sidious was holding back when he finally faced maul, he was definitely taunting them before that but his final attack that ended in a Saber Lock was definitely Sidious trying his hardest.

People don't seem to understand that it's just not that easy. Otherwise Ven Zallow would have been dispelled casually by Malgus as well. Dooku and Maul would flick Obi-Wan away at the start of every fight.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
People don't seem to understand that it's just not that easy. Otherwise Ven Zallow would have been dispelled casually by Malgus as well. Dooku and Maul would flick Obi-Wan away at the start of every fight.

I'm in the middle of a friends marathon before the PTS comes up, anyone else mind linking the quote from the Essential Guide to the force about sabers in duels?

IIRC It talks about how using Sabers just overwhelms the opponent to the extent where using Force abilities is incredibly tough.

Originally posted by Selenial
1) That's your opinion, manneyus.

2) No it doesn't, It just goes into way more detail.

3) Actually, I came to this forum to annoy LeGenD, and have a place where I could constantly put this down. Unless you're trying to tell me that LeGenD is always correct? And I don't mock everyones opinions, just LeGenD's, sometimes Ant, and you.
And stop acting like that's not a common sight on these boards anyway.

1) Not really an opinion when something is stated in the text. Whether it was Vapaads limits or Windu's is irrelevant. The limit is there and Mace was pushed to it.

2) I already explained the contradiction to you. It isn't "more detail" when the detail in the novel directly contradicts the details of the movie. Mace wasn't "choking on ozone" or having his lightsaber bent back towards his face, he was constantly pressing further towards Sidious right up to Sidious fizzling out.

3) Legend is not always correct and I call him out on his BS when I see it. But since you admit to mocking me, I find it funny that you take offense at my perceived disrespect.

Mockery is common here, yes. I just hadn't expected hostility from you. I guess I should of.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
People don't seem to understand that it's just not that easy. Otherwise Ven Zallow would have been dispelled casually by Malgus as well. Dooku and Maul would flick Obi-Wan away at the start of every fight.

It seemed pretty easy when Dooku pwned Anakin and Ventress with lightning when they charged him.

Malgus couldn't dispatch Zallow that easily. In the novel when they first clash "Their blades sizzling in opposition, each used the Force to press against the strength of the other, but neither had an obvious advantage." It's why I rate Zallow so highly.

Likewise Maul can't dominate Obi-Wan that easily, true. But Dooku only doesn't do it because Anakin is always there, imo.

Originally posted by Selenial
But there is a difference in the force aspects of the Force Speed that all Vapaad wielders use, and the rage, to the way Windu used it in his duel with Sidious.


Here's the thing. Normal Vapaad applications are lightning speed using the force to bolster, and channeling your own dark energies.

As well as the opponents. That's the difference between Vaapad and Juyo. Otherwise, they are the same style.

Mace fully gave into Vaapad, not the darkness itself. He was allowing all of his rage to be channeled into saber strikes not giving into the Dark Side. He didn't get stronger, he was simply able to channel more power from Palpatine.

Probably not. Vaapad was more effective because of Palpatine, not Mace.

Lol.