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We've heard the saying that nice guys finish last, if this is true then should he alter his mindset to become the badguy in order to be first? Would it be worth it?

But nice guys don't finish last. It's just a way of making losers feel better.

Nice guys dont't finish last- mentally/physically retarded guys finish last.

Nice guys finish somewhere in the middle, and assholes finish first.

being perpetually nice does put you at a strategic disadvantage. that's why most people are selfish when it makes sense to be selfish and nice when it is convenient for them.

Nice guys are cowards.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
But nice guys don't finish last. It's just a way of making losers feel better.

That is pretty spot on.

At any rate, nice people can be assertive when called far. Being cutthroat is not a sure-fire way to success either.

Originally posted by Astner
Nice guys are cowards. You must be a courageous little cnut.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
You must be a courageous little cnut.
What can I say, I like taking risks at other people's expense.

I like taking expenses at risk.

Originally posted by Bardock42
I like taking expenses at risk.

I've been taking risk lately and it has grown more confidence in me and made me more compassionate. I'm learning to trust God more in his word, it's been difficult but the rewards and effects have been worth while.

I like taking people's expensive Risk. Roll a 6.

nice =/= pushover.

you can be nice and still be assertive.

Originally posted by -Pr-
nice =/= pushover.

you can be nice and still be assertive.

That's like what I said, we should be best friends!

Originally posted by -Pr-
nice =/= pushover.

you can be nice and still be assertive. agreed

Originally posted by -Pr-
nice =/= pushover.

you can be nice and still be assertive.
It doesn't matter whether you're assertive or not. If you're generally nice people are going to take advantage of you.

altruism is basically putting what is best for other people over whatever your own goals are. by definition being nice means that you are making sacrifices for other people. otherwise you are just acting in your own self interest.

i don't consider just being civil with other people as being nice. i think being nice is going that extra mile to help people when it doesn't serve your own interests to do so.

Originally posted by Bardock42
That's like what I said, we should be best friends!

Originally posted by Newjak
agreed



Originally posted by Astner
It doesn't matter whether you're assertive or not. If you're generally nice people are going to take advantage of you.

you can be intelligent enough to know that not everyone is as nice as you are. people will take advantage of you only if you let them, imo.

Originally posted by -Pr-
you can be intelligent enough to know that not everyone is as nice as you are. people will take advantage of you only if you let them, imo.
And unless you let them take advantage of you then you're not nice.

That's how the game goes.

Originally posted by Astner
And unless you let them take advantage of you then you're not nice.

That's how the game goes.

Nah

Originally posted by Astner
And unless you let them take advantage of you then you're not nice.

That's how the game goes.

Do you actually have this belief or are you just being Astner?

Originally posted by Bardock42
Nah
Your friend wants to borrow money from you, he has a history of not repaying you. Would it be nice to lend him the money anyways?

Originally posted by Astner
And unless you let them take advantage of you then you're not nice.

That's how the game goes. This sounds like an over simplification of the topic.

Originally posted by Astner
Your friend wants to borrow money from you, he has a history of not repaying you. Would it be nice to lend him the money anyways?

Sure, maybe. How do you make sure there's no positive return from that action in the future?

the question is in general would repeatedly making that kind of decision lead to a net benefit or a net loss. it's not to say that you will never see any returns. but if over the course of a lifetime you see a net loss through that strategy and those on the other end see a net gain then you are being taken advantage of imo.

Originally posted by Astner
And unless you let them take advantage of you then you're not nice.

That's how the game goes.

:

Originally posted by Robtard
Do you actually have this belief or are you just being Astner?

Honestly though, why do I have to let someone take advantage of me to be nice? I could just be polite and say no.

Originally posted by red g jacks
the question is in general would repeatedly making that kind of decision lead to a net benefit or a net loss. it's not to say that you will never see any returns. but if over the course of a lifetime you see a net loss through that strategy and those on the other end see a net gain then you are being taken advantage of imo.

Yeah, and I don't think there is particularly much evidence that being a nice person would lead to a net loss.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Sure, maybe. How do you make sure there's no positive return from that action in the future?
"He has a history of not repaying you."

Originally posted by Astner
"He has a history of not repaying you."

So he's not paying you back. But his friend thinks you are a really nice guy, and then invites you to hang out with his family over Christmas. His dad owns a big company and offers you an executive position. You live happily ever after.

Oh no, that scenario didn't go at all the way you wanted....I guess it's proven that being nice pays off

Originally posted by Bardock42
Yeah, and I don't think there is particularly much evidence that being a nice person would lead to a net loss. well lets take the example at hand. if he has a history of not paying you back then it would stand to reason that you will most likely see a net loss.

maybe his dad is bill gates and hires you, or maybe he wins the lottery and buys you a yacht. the real question is, what is most likely to happen?

Originally posted by Bardock42
So he's not paying you back. But his friend thinks you are a really nice guy, and then invites you to hang out with his family over Christmas. His dad owns a big company and offers you an executive position. You live happily ever after.
Well it's your right to dream I suppose.

You might want to try donating money to homeless people, chances are that one of them might be a billionaire in disguise who's looking for a nice guy to inherit his fortune.

Originally posted by red g jacks
well lets take the example at hand. if he has a history of not paying you back then it would stand to reason that you will most likely see a net loss.

maybe his dad is bill gates and hires you, or maybe he wins the lottery and buys you a yacht. the real question is, what is most likely to happen?

The thing is you don't know what's going to happen. But being nice does make people like you, and that increases your chances of them helping you when you need it.

At any rate it's not mean to decline lending someone money that still owes you from before, and it does not mean you are not a nice person.

Originally posted by Bardock42
The thing is you don't know what's going to happen. But being nice does make people like you, and that increases your chances of them helping you when you need it.
Not quite. Being nice only make people expect more of you.

The only way to get people to help you is to be clear with favors, i.e. "you owe you one," because that prepares people for returning the service.

Originally posted by Astner
The only way to get people to help you is to be clear with favors, i.e. "you owe you one," because that prepares people for returning the service.

And now we know how Astner gets sex.

Originally posted by Astner
Not quite. Being nice only make people expect more of you.

The only way to get people to help you is to be clear with favors, i.e. "you owe you one," because that prepares people for returning the service.

Couldn't they just put up these debts against each other and call it even?

Originally posted by Robtard
And now we know how Astner gets sex.
Yeah, I've been extremely generous giving away sex for far too simple favors.

Originally posted by Bardock42
The thing is you don't know what's going to happen. But being nice does make people like you, and that increases your chances of them helping you when you need it.

At any rate it's not mean to decline lending someone money that still owes you from before, and it does not mean you are not a nice person. you never know what's going to happen, but we can certainly speculate about probabilities. and if you employed that strategy in every situation then i think you would most probably see a net loss. if you only employed it in situations where the person had a rich dad or some other strategically enticing incentive then you are not being nice, you're actually taking advantage of them.

i'm not advocating being mean and i don't think there is a strict dichotomy between mean and nice. some actions are neutral, and all people are nice at times and mean at other times. being strictly one or the other seems to me to be a terrible strategy.

i actually think altruism is a good thing and i am glad people have the impulse to be nice. but it isn't necessarily something you will gain from strategically, and imo that doesn't really matter. you get a good feeling from being nice and that is why you do it. if it were just the strategically optimal choice every time then there would be no reason at all for humans to develop morality.

Again, this seems to come down to a different definition of "nice". I believe that one can be nice without being taken advantage of. Really the scenario you refer to is more foolish than nice. At any rate, the question was about whether "nice guys finish last", which i do not believe to be accurate in my view of what a nice guy is.

One the friend question. If he's my friend even though he doesn't pay me back regularly I clearly like him for other reasons. He could return the kindness in other ways even if he's unreliable in that aspect. Or it could just not be a big deal to help him out in that way.

The most successful people I know are very kind. Not nice, per se. Nice is superficial. Nice is putting on airs for the sake of appearances. But by kind I mean genuinely caring. There are too many varied paths to success to count. But mutually beneficial ones tend to feel the best.

Anyone trying to throw maxims around is an absolutist idiot, though. There are 7 billion people on the planet. There are too many paths to success to boil it down to quaint aphorisms or refutations to them. If anything, finishing first/last probably has very little to do with being nice. It's a platitude aimed at softening certain blows. A determined person, nice or not, is more likely to finish first than a lazy person. Variables like that are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> whether or not you're nice.

tl;dr try not to worry about nice or not, OP.

Drive is more important than how nice or mean you are.

Originally posted by Astner
Nice guys are cowards. With your girlish build I can't imagine you're as aggressive IRL as you try to be online.

Anyway, the definition of "nice" in this thread seems to be being equated with "naive and stupid".

You can be a generally nice guy while not being so much of a little guy that you let people walk all over you ("Sure dawg I'll work this job for free for over a year to pay your car off", I know someone who is going through a situation like this right now). Whether that makes you less "nice" than someone who does is debatable.

Without going to deep into the rabbit hole of "what constitutes nice and not-nice", I remember reading a study a few years ago that came to the conclusion that individuals with less of a conscience and less empathy for others possess an advantage in business and political environments.

Which does make a certain amount of sense. We live in a competitive society that doesn't really condemn dishonest practices. The average person would probably say that they disapprove of lying and manipulation, yet simultaneously the average person would also probably acknowledge that both practices are rife within politics and business, and feel ambivalence about it. Despite seeing dishonesty as immoral, most people accept that being dishonest is simply "part of the game" when it comes to these ventures.

The result of this dynamic is that someone who is willing to be dishonest can reap the rewards of making that extra effort with little risks- whereas someone who limits themselves to "honest living" is protecting themselves from an ostracism that doesn't really exist, and they don't really gain a whole lot in return. I feel like there's enough real world examples -the Thomas Edisons, Apple/Microsofts and Dick Cheneys of the World- to support that.

edit- To clarify, when I say dishonest I'm not referring to criminal acts. Obviously, "prison" is a possible consequence of that kind of dishonesty.

So, is there a question here?

Is the question an implied "do nice guys finish last?" If so, then on average, i'd say its even. Both nice and not nice people get a lot of press, but the media cant cover all society.

Is this just an observation? If so, there's nothing wrong with it.

Originally posted by Tzeentch
Without going to deep into the rabbit hole of "what constitutes nice and not-nice", I remember reading a study a few years ago that came to the conclusion that individuals with less of a conscience and less empathy for others possess an advantage in business and political environments.

Which does make a certain amount of sense. We live in a competitive society that doesn't really condemn dishonest practices. The average person would probably say that they disapprove of lying and manipulation, yet simultaneously the average person would also probably acknowledge that both practices are rife within politics and business, and feel ambivalence about it. Despite seeing dishonesty as immoral, most people accept that being dishonest is simply "part of the game" when it comes to these ventures.

The result of this dynamic is that someone who is willing to be dishonest can reap the rewards of making that extra effort with little risks- whereas someone who limits themselves to "honest living" is protecting themselves from an ostracism that doesn't really exist, and they don't really gain a whole lot in return. I feel like there's enough real world examples -the Thomas Edisons, Apple/Microsofts and Dick Cheneys of the World- to support that. Sociopaths are some of the most outwardly nice people I've ever met though.

Exactly.

On a separate topic, how did you know they were sociopaths? They told you "I am a sociopath"?

Originally posted by Tzeentch
Without going to deep into the rabbit hole of "what constitutes nice and not-nice", I remember reading a study a few years ago that came to the conclusion that individuals with less of a conscience and less empathy for others possess an advantage in business and political environments.

Which does make a certain amount of sense. We live in a competitive society that doesn't really condemn dishonest practices. The average person would probably say that they disapprove of lying and manipulation, yet simultaneously the average person would also probably acknowledge that both practices are rife within politics and business, and feel ambivalence about it. Despite seeing dishonesty as immoral, most people accept that being dishonest is simply "part of the game" when it comes to these ventures.

The result of this dynamic is that someone who is willing to be dishonest can reap the rewards of making that extra effort with little risks- whereas someone who limits themselves to "honest living" is protecting themselves from an ostracism that doesn't really exist, and they don't really gain a whole lot in return. I feel like there's enough real world examples -the Thomas Edisons, Apple/Microsofts and Dick Cheneys of the World- to support that.

edit- To clarify, when I say dishonest I'm not referring to criminal acts. Obviously, "prison" is a possible consequence of that kind of dishonesty.

Well worded

I've seen moral degenerates climb the business ladder because they were moral degenerates.

Heh.
Hopefully this'll get more replies and what the heck you're asking will become clearer.

Originally posted by Tzeentch
Exactly.

On a separate topic, how did you know they were sociopaths? They told you "I am a sociopath"? They told me that they want no one else to succeed. They hate most people. There are times when they look at people and see nothing worth liking. They want to earn enough money that they can get away from everyone.

Originally posted by Tzeentch
Exactly.

On a separate topic, how did you know they were sociopaths? They told you "I am a sociopath"?

He just assumes everyone that's nice is a sociopath...

Originally posted by NemeBro
They told me that they want no one else to succeed. They hate most people. There are times when they look at people and see nothing worth liking. They want to earn enough money that they can get away from everyone.

Last family reunion?

I don't have a family.

Originally posted by Bardock42
He just assumes everyone that's nice is a sociopath...

I was nice to him and sent him shitloads of ebooks...

Originally posted by Robtard
I was nice to him and sent him shitloads of ebooks... But you're also outwardly mean to the mentally handicapped.

Wut

Originally posted by Robtard
Wut Irony.

Originally posted by NemeBro
They told me that they want no one else to succeed. They hate most people. There are times when they look at people and see nothing worth liking. They want to earn enough money that they can get away from everyone. Were they sharply dressed?

That's the real indication of a personality disorder.

Originally posted by Tzeentch
Were they sharply dressed?

That's the real indication of a personality disorder. Do you wear your dress clothes in the bedroom?

It'd be a shame if I didn't.

Pronounced: Tuh-zinch

If nice guys finish last, wtf kinda game are we playing?

How bout I finish last on your face during your bukake? Cya at 7.

Originally posted by NemeBro
They told me that they want no one else to succeed. They hate most people. There are times when they look at people and see nothing worth liking. They want to earn enough money that they can get away from everyone.

That sounds more like misanthropy than sociopathy. Could be both.

Originally posted by Robtard
How bout I finish last on your face during your bukake? Cya at 7. I was trying to be philosophical bro.

Originally posted by It's xyz!
I was trying to be philosophical bro.

So was I, bro.

Originally posted by atv2
We've heard the saying that nice guys finish last, if this is true then should he alter his mindset to become the badguy in order to be first? Would it be worth it? Yes and yes.

And if you think about it, everyone else is going to tell you to be nice precisely so that they are not last.

Kindness comes in one form in the conventional sense. But because of the fact that you stated in the topic title; the cruel rule.

The one who's going to liberate and empower the meek is going to be the necessary evil. And he is going to die in 48 years so that he cannot live long enough to see himself become the last villain. In the only kind act he'll have performed in 23 years, 48 years from now. Death at age 46.



Metempsychosis with a martyr who bought hundreds of thousands of years by bearing the weight of their; as Sagan put it, "dangerous evolutionary baggage", on his narrow shoulders. He'll have purchased 23 years of ecstasy with the first 23 miserable years of his life, and hundreds of thousands of apathetic and prosperous years for everyone else - living youthfully beside their thousands of newer generations.

Originally posted by Robtard
So was I, bro. Now I understand.

It stands to reason that the idea of being nice has inexorably led to a world of people who are "paying it forward". Hence the reason why nice guys don't finish last. This unspoken rule, the golden rule, is it really the great universal equalizer? That would mean we've excelled at moral rationalization.

Moral decisions are perhaps the most convoluted ones we face, and humans are very vexed by anything that is less than simplistic.

For that reason, we have the world you see today, as opposed to the Technological Utopia that it could be.

Machines will never be able to think, but they are already superior at carrying out all tasks a human could. Physically limitless in application, vastly more farseeing in calculation, self-sustaining, and ever-improving.

And machines will never be able to think unless we program them with emotions.

That would be a fatal error, emotions are the only incentives that aren't arbitrated by protocol and policy.

If nice guys finish last, then what will be happens???? this is a most popular question in our society, city, town, and also our state. we can be nice person not a bad impression person. please do kind works for all