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Malgus's teacher vs. One of Krayt's hands.

Force, sabers, all out

Talon wins this.

Originally posted by Emperor Sinious
Vindican. One Sith are weak.

Nah, plenty have good feats.


Vindican's no slouch, but Talon has better force. Her tendency to over-aggressiveness is sometimes a problem, but I don't know if Vindican is good enough to take advantage of it.

Talon.

Don't respond to it Q99. Just let it wither and die.

Originally posted by Q99
Nah, plenty have good feats.


Vindican's no slouch, but Talon has better force. Her tendency to over-aggressiveness is sometimes a problem, but I don't know if Vindican is good enough to take advantage of it.

Her best force feat is shattering a stone. This hardly translates into any sort of offensive ability. That being said she might still pull a narrow victory.

Originally posted by carthage
Her best force feat is shattering a stone. This hardly translates into any sort of offensive ability.

Ripping up a few tons out of a solid stone floor (not just 'a stone,' part of a much larger stone structure) is a rather impressive amount of kinetic energy ^^


Talon's also got good lightning and is solid at combining force attacks with physical fighting.


Non-direct combat, Talon's good at sensing, good at hiding herself in the force, and good at reading minds.

That's not even really close to a ton, much less "a few" of them.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
That's not even really close to a ton, much less "a few" of them.

This is a ton of rocks,, as is this, as are each of these blocks

This is rock being ripped up that's twice as tall as Cade and at least as wide too. Dozens, plural, is more like, but I was low-balling.


Note also the force required to *break* the rock away from the surrounding rock is needed, so it's more impressive than simply moving that much rock.

People really underestimate how much shit weighs.

Yes. If force-pushes could be concentrated like bullets rather than spread out, combatants wouldn't be merely throwing each other around!

Which just goes to show how good Plagueis's pushes are, considering even his spread out Force Pushes splat armored assassins.

Yes.

Wasn't there someone else who also did that? Blasting people apart with TK, I mean.

Bane and the Technobeasts?
Starkiller in the trailer for TFU II?

Those are the only two other examples that come to mind as of now.

Originally posted by Emperordmb

Starkiller in the trailer for TFU II?

Is that Canon*?

*In terms of Legends.

Nope.

Originally posted by Selenial
Is that Canon*?

*In terms of Legends.
No and that's why I specifically said the trailer.

He did blow up the Salvation, though, which is insane by any standards.

I don't even mean disintegration, I'm just looking for an example of someone who's pushes and shoves were powerful enough to dismember people.

As far as the disintegration thing goes, Vitiate.

I recall Vader made a head explode once. It was in a box or something, in a comic.

Kyle Katarn could shape TK into a pseudo-object and *stab* people with it.

Vindican is a notable Sith Inquisitor and should logically have superior understanding of the Force then many Sith by virtue of his specialization.

Vindican's lightning bursts are potent enough to incapacitate even powerful Force-users, if Talon somehow ends up exposed to the former's lightning bursts, she is done for.

Vindican is decent in use of lightsaber as well, it took an extremely proficient duelist to stab him and Talon is not even close to Kao's proficiency in matters of lightsaber dueling arts, most aren't.

Vindican is also proficient in the matters of defending himself from powerful external attacks including direct exposure to rocket fire.

In the nutshell, Vindican is likely the superior Sith Lord and combatant in this contest. Talon may not be a slouch but she isn't good enough to handle Vindican, IMO.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Vindican is a notable Sith Inquisitor and should logically have superior understanding of the Force then many Sith by virtue of his specialization.
Talon is a hand... that means she is one of Krayt's most powerful servants... not sure how being an inquisitor somehow places one above a Hand.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Vindican's lightning bursts are potent enough to incapacitate even powerful Force-users
When has this happened?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Vindican is decent in use of lightsaber as well, it took an extremely proficient duelist to stab him and Talon is not even close to Kao's proficiency in matters of lightsaber dueling arts, most aren't.
And Talon is not decent in the use of a lightsaber or proficient? You mean an extremely powerful duelist who was also fending off Malgus while fighting Vindican?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
In the nutshell, Vindican is likely the superior Sith Lord and combatant in this contest. Talon may not be a slouch but she isn't good enough to handle Vindican, IMO.
And Vindican has done... what exactly?

Holy **** I never thought it was happening but I'm actually defending Talon, my least favorite Sith, for once.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
When has this happened?

He's referring to padawan Satale Shan......

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
He's referring to padawan Satale Shan......
LOL She recovered from that fairly quickly.

He's actually keeping Malgus away for most of the duel with either martial attacks or force moves. When Malgus got serious Kao was ****ed.

Originally posted by carthage
He's actually keeping Malgus away for most of the duel with either martial attacks or force moves. When Malgus got serious Kao was ****ed.
not really relevant to the point I was making.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Talon is a hand... that means she is one of Krayt's most powerful servants... not sure how being an inquisitor somehow places one above a Hand.
Hand represents a rank, not a specialization.

Sith Inquisitor represents specialization, in-depth understanding of the Force. This is the Sith equivalent of Jedi Consular specialization.

General description # 1:

TO BE A SITH requires strength, confidence, and sheer power. But to become a Sith inquisitor, one must embrace the dark side and wield its destructive power with unparalleled cunning. While other Sith fight amongst themselves, inquisitors survey the battlefield, devise sinister plans to seize power, and manipulate their enemies into warring with each other. Masters of political scheming, backstabbing and deceit, inquisitors play a deadly sparring match for power and influence. And when politics fail, inquisitors stride into the battlefield and humble all who oppose them with dreadful displays of dark side sorcery.

Whether driven to support the Empire or by selfish ambition, many inquisitors aspire for honors and splendor that can be achieved only by securing one of 12 seats on the Dark Council. With millions of Sith vying for power, the battle to climb the pyramid of hierarchy is won only for the most devious, clever and powerful masters of the dark side. (Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)

General description # 2:

MASTERY OF THE DARK SIDE requires raw talent and an indomitable spirit. Sith inquisitors draw on their inner passions and dedicate themselves to one facet of the dark arts in their pursuit of ultimate power. (Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)

Sub-specialization # 1:

ASSSASSINS cloak themselves in darkness and manipulate the minds of their enemies to disappear from the view. When concealment must be abandoned, Sith assassins emerge from the shadows. They bolster their defenses with the dark side while striking with cold efficiency and vicious dual-bladed lightsabers. (Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)

Sub-specialization # 2

SORCERERS wield the power of the dark side to lay waste to their enemies. By bending the Force to their will, sorcerers also use the dark side to mend wounds and shield worthy allies. Whether cutting down a foe with a lightsaber or dominating them with a storm of Force lightning, a Sith sorcerer displays terrifying power on and off the battlefield. (Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)

Not much is known about the exact specialties of Vindican but he have been officially identified as a Sith Inquisitor.

---

Reconstituted ancient Sith Empire implemented specialization based training system to train Sith. I think that Krayt adopted more generalized approach to train Sith but he implemented ranking system to minimize potential challenges to his supremacy whereas reconstituted ancient Sith Empire encouraged open competition.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
When has this happened?
When a lightning cast from Vindican was turned towards Malgus by Kao, the power incapacitated Malgus for a while.

Kao used multiple blades to prevent the lightning cast from engulfing him.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
And Talon is not decent in the use of a lightsaber or proficient? You mean an extremely powerful duelist who was also fending off Malgus while fighting Vindican?
I did not assert that Talon sucks.

Do you really think that she matches Kao's proficiency? Most in-fact don't.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
And Vindican has done... what exactly?
This is odd question.

Vindican trained Malgus and shaped him into one of the finest warriors of the Empire. Quality instructor ensures quality Sith in development. In addition, his specialization implies advanced understanding of the dark side.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Holy **** I never thought it was happening but I'm actually defending Talon, my least favorite Sith, for once.
Holy shit, don't then. Easy.

It means they're Darth Krayt's personal assassin, so it is a bit of a specialization.

Each of the Inner Circle members has a distinct job.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Hand represents a rank, not a specialization.

Sith Inquisitor represents specialization, in-depth understanding of the Force. This is the Sith equivalent of Jedi Consular specialization.

General description # 1:

TO BE A SITH requires strength, confidence, and sheer power. But to become a Sith inquisitor, one must embrace the dark side and wield its destructive power with unparalleled cunning. While other Sith fight amongst themselves, inquisitors survey the battlefield, devise sinister plans to seize power, and manipulate their enemies into warring with each other. Masters of political scheming, backstabbing and deceit, inquisitors play a deadly sparring match for power and influence. And when politics fail, inquisitors stride into the battlefield and humble all who oppose them with dreadful displays of dark side sorcery.

Whether driven to support the Empire or by selfish ambition, many inquisitors aspire for honors and splendor that can be achieved only by securing one of 12 seats on the Dark Council. With millions of Sith vying for power, the battle to climb the pyramid of hierarchy is won only for the most devious, clever and powerful masters of the dark side. (Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)

General description # 2:

MASTERY OF THE DARK SIDE requires raw talent and an indomitable spirit. Sith inquisitors draw on their inner passions and dedicate themselves to one facet of the dark arts in their pursuit of ultimate power. (Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)

Sub-specialization # 1:

ASSSASSINS cloak themselves in darkness and manipulate the minds of their enemies to disappear from the view. When concealment must be abandoned, Sith assassins emerge from the shadows. They bolster their defenses with the dark side while striking with cold efficiency and vicious dual-bladed lightsabers. (Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)

Sub-specialization # 2

SORCERERS wield the power of the dark side to lay waste to their enemies. By bending the Force to their will, sorcerers also use the dark side to mend wounds and shield worthy allies. Whether cutting down a foe with a lightsaber or dominating them with a storm of Force lightning, a Sith sorcerer displays terrifying power on and off the battlefield. (Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)

Not much is known about the exact specialties of Vindican but he have been officially identified as a Sith Inquisitor.

---

Reconstituted ancient Sith Empire implemented specialization based training system to train Sith. I think that Krayt adopted more generalized approach to train Sith but he implemented ranking system to minimize potential challenges to his supremacy whereas reconstituted ancient Sith Empire encouraged open competition.


When a lightning cast from Vindican was turned towards Malgus by Kao, the power incapacitated Malgus for a while.

Kao used multiple blades to prevent the lightning cast from engulfing him.


I did not assert that Talon sucks.

Do you really think that she matches Kao's proficiency? Most in-fact don't.


This is odd question.

Vindican trained Malgus and shaped him into one of the finest warriors of the Empire. Quality instructor ensures quality Sith in development. In addition, his specialization implies advanced understanding of the dark side.


Holy shit, don't then. Easy.

This all nice and swell, but Talon has more feats to back up her prowess as well as her rank, Just because Vindican trained Malgus doesn't make him some strong beast and the inquisitor title doesn't mean anything, Cin Drallig was a Jedi battlemaster yet he fell very quickly To Anakin. Judging a character soley on the fact that they held a title will only lead to baseless assumptions and inacurracies.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
This all nice and swell, but Talon has more feats to back up her prowess as well as her rank, Just because Vindican trained Malgus doesn't make him some strong beast and the inquisitor title doesn't mean anything, Cin Drallig was a Jedi battlemaster yet he fell very quickly To Anakin. Judging a character soley on the fact that they held a title will only lead to baseless assumptions and inacurracies.

Indeed. And plenty of students pass their masters- Dooku's master was apparently nothing special.

Originally posted by Q99
Indeed. And plenty of students pass their masters- Dooku's master was apparently nothing special.

Please tell me that's not all you just took from my comment.

I was agreeing and adding a comment.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
This all nice and swell, but Talon has more feats to back up her prowess as well as her rank, Just because Vindican trained Malgus doesn't make him some strong beast and the inquisitor title doesn't mean anything, Cin Drallig was a Jedi battlemaster yet he fell very quickly To Anakin. Judging a character soley on the fact that they held a title will only lead to baseless assumptions and inacurracies.
Sith inquisitors are masters of the Force.

Talon isn't on par with Kao Cen Darach, greater quantity of feats does not implies superiority.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Sith inquisitors are masters of the Force.
Are you seriously implying that any inquisitor could beat Talon by virtue of being an inquisitor?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Talon isn't on par with Kao Cen Darach,
And Vindican is demonstrably not on par with Darach.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
greater quantity of feats does not implies superiority.
And training a guy and getting beat by another guy definitely does not imply superiority.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Are you seriously implying that any inquisitor could beat Talon by virtue of being an inquisitor? .

Emperor...I'm seriously appalled you continue to defend talon...like damn.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Sith inquisitors are masters of the Force.


Vindican has shown absolutely nothing to put him above someone like Talon or Nihl.



So...just because we've seen the jedi master Fay in action in the comic with Durge and Ventress means She > most PT council members......not really how this sort of thing works LeGenD
http://media.tumblr.com/8b855bd77805531736c26a5b4a74c2ea/tumblr_inline_mwil7cQYaO1qbvsbs.gif

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy

Vindican has shown absolutely nothing to put him above someone like Talon or Nihl.

Indeed.





If your few feats are good enough, it can count for a heck of a lot in my book.

But... Vindican's few feats are not near as good as Master Fay's anyway!

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Sith inquisitors are masters of the Force.

Talon isn't on par with Kao Cen Darach, greater quantity of feats does not implies superiority.

I'd say she is. Obliterating that stone floor like she did is about even with Kao's Force feats and she's plenty strong with a saber.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Are you seriously implying that any inquisitor could beat Talon by virtue of being an inquisitor?
Are you seriously implying that a mediocre individual can become a Sith Inquisitor?

Originally posted by Emperordmb
And Vindican is demonstrably not on par with Darach.
Yes, but that doesn't implies that he is inferior to every Tom, D***, Harry in the mythos.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
And training a guy and getting beat by another guy definitely does not imply superiority.
Your point is?

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Vindican has shown absolutely nothing to put him above someone like Talon or Nihl.
I disagree.

Lord Vindican tanked a direct missile hit and dissipated its explosion swiftly as if it was nothing, this feat alone demonstrates great degree of sophistication and command of the Force. Not even Darth Malgus was able to demonstrate this level of sophistication on Aldeeran when he was hit by a missile (same model).

Lord Vindican is not just very good at defending himself but his powers are potent as well. Lord Vindican's lightning burst utterly incapacitated Darth Malgus for a while when it was deflected towards him (Darth Malgus) by Kao Cen Darach who used multiple blades and his logically very impressive deflective capabilities to pull this off.

I am confident that Lord Vindican wouldn't be lacking in telekinetic abilities either. Sith Inquisitors are good in all aspects of the Force.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
So...just because we've seen the jedi master Fay in action in the comic with Durge and Ventress means She > most PT council members......not really how this sort of thing works LeGenD
http://media.tumblr.com/8b855bd77805531736c26a5b4a74c2ea/tumblr_inline_mwil7cQYaO1qbvsbs.gif
My logic and reasoning is sound, I didn't get this point though.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'd say she is. Obliterating that stone floor like she did is about even with Kao's Force feats and she's plenty strong with a saber.
Don't be ridiculous, and you are exaggerating Darth Talon's feat.

You want to see an impressive floor shattering feat? Look no further then this kind of feat of Lord Adraas inside Jedi Temple. This feat isn't an indication of superiority over other powerful Force-users, Sith tend to be destructive with their actions to psychologically influence their opponents.

Kao Cen Darach simultaneously handled Darth Malgus (one of the greatest warriors of the Empire at this point) and Lord Vindican simultaneously with his speed, ferocity and powers for a while. I really doubt that Darth Talon is this much capable.

In-fact, I really doubt that someone like Darth Talon would be crowned a Darth in reconstituted ancient Sith Empire or even in Rule of Two lineage, she is so pathetic in her beliefs and does little to improve herself, she represents decay of Sith in a future era.

Not really, that was all from a single solid piece of rock- hard rock, they don't make temple floors from sandstone- and the result is taller than her and wider than it is tall.




There's many many darths in the TOR Empire she'd slaughter.

Talon, though devoted training, just got handed one of the higher slots in the Empire. She's young, much younger than her rival, and Darth Krayt promises to teach her more. There's roughly a year, year and a half between the start of Legacy and the end.

Or in other words, she's been consistently rewarded for her approach so far and as for any future ambitions, can you think of a better way than learning from Krayt? There's still Sith stronger than her but below Krayt, and passing them- or most specifically, Nihl- would be the next logical step for any sith. Striking out and taking over is something even a Rule of Two sith will often only consider when they're strong enough, after gaining as much strength as they can from their boss.

I don't view her as much different than Maul in mindset- remember he only started thinking independent in TCW. And it's a pretty rare sith who'd try and topple their boss *that* soon after getting a top spot, especially when they have much to learn!


Heck, don't forget the TOR position of Emperor's Wrath. Gaining power by chosing to directly serve is no odd thing for a sith.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Kao Cen Darach simultaneously handled Darth Malgus (one of the greatest warriors of the Empire at this point) and Lord Vindican simultaneously with his speed, ferocity and powers for a while. I really doubt that Darth Talon is this much capable.

She doesn't need to be. She's only fighting one of those guys here.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
She doesn't need to be. She's only fighting one of those guys here.

The weaker of the two, no less.

Originally posted by Q99
Not really, that was all from a single solid piece of rock- hard rock, they don't make temple floors from sandstone- and the result is taller than her and wider than it is tall.
Show me the pic again.

Meanwhile:

http://i39.tinypic.com/zx39mt.jpg

Jedi Temple floor is still tough surface to crack and destroy.

Originally posted by Q99
There's many many darths in the TOR Empire she'd slaughter.
In your dreams? Yes

Do you have a grasp of the quality of Sith in reconstituted ancient Sith Empire? No

Originally posted by Q99
Talon, though devoted training, just got handed one of the higher slots in the Empire. She's young, much younger than her rival, and Darth Krayt promises to teach her more. There's roughly a year, year and a half between the start of Legacy and the end.
The Empire that she served isn't designed to churn out mighty Sith, it is built to favor Darth Krayt's agenda and minimize potential challenges to him. For this purpose, Darth Krayt threw bones to his followers to make them happy and keep them distracted.

And this is the mindset:

"We all live or die as Krayt wills, Stryfe. At his word, I would cut out my own heart. Or yours."

Darth Talon is such a great Sith, oh wait.

In the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire, even the Emperor himself could be challenged for supremacy under Kaggath rules of the Empire, it is another story that no one ever succeeded but can any one fault them for failing against such a powerful adversary? And weak Sith were not even allowed to declare Kaggath.

Only a Sith who is recognized by the Dark Council as possessing sufficient power and authority may declare a Kaggath. Their chosen opponents may be anyone from the upstart young Lords to the Emperor himself. (TOR Encyclopedia)

Reconstituted ancient Sith Empire was designed to produce mighty Sith, it was designed to fuel severe competition among the Sith for supremacy and Emperor himself could be challenged.

Wyyrlok III is someone whom I actually respect in the Legacy era, he actually challenged Darth Krayt for supremacy like true Sith Lord would.

Originally posted by Q99
Or in other words, she's been consistently rewarded for her approach so far and as for any future ambitions, can you think of a better way than learning from Krayt? There's still Sith stronger than her but below Krayt, and passing them- or most specifically, Nihl- would be the next logical step for any sith. Striking out and taking over is something even a Rule of Two sith will often only consider when they're strong enough, after gaining as much strength as they can from their boss.

I don't view her as much different than Maul in mindset- remember he only started thinking independent in TCW. And it's a pretty rare sith who'd try and topple their boss *that* soon after getting a top spot, especially when they have much to learn!
Darth Talon may not be as bad as often claimed to be but she is far from an ideal Sith Lord, she lacked in ambition and did not attempt to gain greater power by delving in to ancient teachings of the Sith. Do you seriously believe that Darth Krayt would allow her to challenge him? The rest is covered above.

Originally posted by Q99
Heck, don't forget the TOR position of Emperor's Wrath. Gaining power by chosing to directly serve is no odd thing for a sith.
You insult Emperor's Wrath I by comparing him to Darth Talon.

Here: "We all live or die as Krayt wills, Stryfe. At his word, I would cut out my own heart. Or yours."

In-fact, Emperor's Wrath I had ambition to become Emperor himself.

Also, look at the way Darth Talon dressed herself. No sense of imposing fear onto others, protection and augmenting her combat prowess.

I'm sorry... is that seriously a point in your argument important enough for you to give it its own post?

Talon loses, cause she dresses like a $lut?

Originally posted by chilled monkey
She doesn't need to be. She's only fighting one of those guys here.
It takes Kao Cen Darach's equal or superior to outgun Lord Vindican. Darth Talon is not an individual of this much capability.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
I'm sorry... is that seriously a point in your argument important enough for you to give it its own post?

Talon loses, cause she dresses like a $lut?
Contrary to what you believe, dressing sense is important to Sith.

Darth Talon is highly vulnerable to suffering injuries in a bikini then she would be in an armored dressing.

Armored dressing is not just about protection, some armored outfits are designed to enhance combat prowess and even to intimidate potential rivals on top of offering protection.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Dressing sense represents ideals of a Sith individual. It isn't done at random.

Darth Talon is highly vulnerable to suffering injuries in a bikini then she would be in an armored dressing.

Armored dressing is not just about protection, some battle suist are designed to enhance combat prowess ands some even to intimidate potential rivals.
So Talon is weaker than any Darth in Vitiate's empire because of the way she dresses.

I personally believe that the One Sith fell short in terms of quality in comparison with say the Banite Sith, or even Vitiate's Empire, but suggesting that Talon is inferior to every Darth in Vitiate's Empire is just horrendous.

I also believe that from a philosophical standpoint, Talon represents everything a Sith should not be, but that's no reason to lowball her to that extent when she actually has some impressive feats.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
So Talon is weaker than any Darth in Vitiate's empire because of the way she dresses.
Not necessarily weaker but more vulnerable then any, yes.

Dressing sense is important to Sith from various aspects; enhancing combat prowess; having shock value; and increasing personal safety. Dressing sense does have an impact on a Sith's performance.

Also, dressing sense is just one point. Darth Talon isn't a mighty Sith Lord from other aspects either.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
I personally believe that the One Sith fell short in terms of quality in comparison with say the Banite Sith, or even Vitiate's Empire, but suggesting that Talon is inferior to every Darth in Vitiate's Empire is just horrendous.

I also believe that from a philosophical standpoint, Talon represents everything a Sith should not be, but that's no reason to lowball her to that extent when she actually has some impressive feats.
Don't get me wrong, I don't regard Darth Talon as a weakling or a mook but she is not an elite.

Darths of reconstituted ancient Sith Empire are elites of the Order/Empire, they represent the APEX of the Empire's power spectrum. This Empire was designed to churn out highest quality Sith possible and standards for becoming a Darth in it were ridiculously high accordingly.

Just because Darth Talon was crowned as a Darth and thrived during the era of Darth Krayt, doesn't implies that she will receive same level of respect in every era, specially in the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire. Sith like her would be chewed up in this Empire.

And I suppose Darth Vowrawn was just a phenomenal powerhouse of supreme power wasn't he?

Originally posted by Emperordmb
And I suppose Darth Vowrawn was just a phenomenal powerhouse of supreme power wasn't he?
He wasn't as much lacking in strength as some of you might believe, he survived and held his own in many battles.

Also, he more then made-up for his supposed inadequacy in strength with his incredible cunning and survival skills.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Meanwhile:

http://i39.tinypic.com/zx39mt.jpg

That's a sith crouching down? Yea, that's a little damage, but damaging floor like that still is just a fraction what Talon did. That's not nearly as much raw stuff moved.

Link





Do you?

You seem to equate 'the quality of the sith of the reconstituted empire' with 'the top dozen people in said empire,' and not, like, the actual wide majority of them. Dark Council members are not average guides to quality of the sith in the empire, to state the obvious!


Talon's well well above, say Exal Kressh and Darth Vowrawn, to name some notable names who are stands-outs but aren't even a serious debate vs Talon.

Not to mention all the Lords that various player characters take down in the games... Lord Savik died to the Voidhound, and she's not the only lord to fall to non-force-sensitives.






You're thinking of Sidious, who restricted the strength of his servants so none could challenge him.

Krayt wanted them as a weapon against the galaxy and fight against the Jedi, and gain enough force knowledge to help him, especially if it involved curing his implants. He had Talon trained so she could rip secrets from her foes. Wyyrlok was tasked to study and gain as many ancient sources of knowledge as much as he could, and Maladi similar to improve her abilities (though she apparently horded a bit).

Heck, Vul Isen wasn't even a Darth and yet he was given access to the study of Sith Alchemy and was able to not just re-create but modify sith leviathans!

You can't just make up stuff about an order because you don't like them.







And, mind you, even Sith like Thanaton never *considered* it.

Krayt could be challenged, even if there was no formal mechanism. Vitiate could be challenged, but the sith we know as 'great' within the Empire were too cowed by him to do so. How is that different in practicality?





One, she's young, she *just* graduated to her rank, that's like complaining that someone who just graduated absolute first in her college hasn't done much self-research- well, duh, she hasn't had opportunity to yet, she just completed her prior studies. Two, she's... specifically shown showing Cade ancient teachings of the sith, and she does use fairly advanced abilities in the mind-ripping in her fairly first outing. Three, Krayt often sends his people after more Sith knowledge, and four, he offers her and Nihl more power and knowledge still after his rebirth.




He allowed Wyyrlok to grow as strong as he did, why wouldn't he?




An ambition he did not act on for centuries when Revan was no longer present to do it for him. At what point is an 'ambition' merely an excuse one makes for oneself?






But he's still an example of the strength of a Dark Lord of the Empire, and a dark councilor no less. Like you say, he held his own in many battles with even his relatively low strength. He's going to be stronger than a random sith warrior of the type used in the sack of Coruscant most likely.

He's weak, much weaker than Talon, yet he's most likely still not that far from the strength of a *normal* darth, it's just his cunning lets him pal around with the major powerhouses who hang with the council.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Also, look at the way Darth Talon dressed herself. No sense of imposing fear onto others, protection and augmenting her combat prowess.

Yeah guys, dressing sensibly is mad appropriate and the TOR Sith had it down pat.

http://media-titanium.cursecdn.com/attachments/thumbnails/39/764/630/630/si_forcemaster.jpg

http://dulfy.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/swtor-hallowed-gothic-armor-oricon-reputation.jpg

http://dulfy.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/swtor-cartel-market-investigators-armor-set-full-female.jpg

http://tor.zamimg.com/uploads/images/7322.jpg

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah guys, dressing sensibly is mad appropriate and the TOR Sith had it down pat.

http://media-titanium.cursecdn.com/attachments/thumbnails/39/764/630/630/si_forcemaster.jpg

http://dulfy.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/swtor-hallowed-gothic-armor-oricon-reputation.jpg

http://dulfy.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/swtor-cartel-market-investigators-armor-set-full-female.jpg

http://tor.zamimg.com/uploads/images/7322.jpg
This isn't representative of official dressing sense of a Sith Lord in the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire. These are options for playable characters and they do not represent official dressing sense of even playable characters.

Originally posted by Q99
That's a sith crouching down? Yea, that's a little damage, but damaging floor like that still is just a fraction what Talon did. That's not nearly as much raw stuff moved.
I suggest that you watch TOR Deceived cinematic Trailer and revisit TOR Deceived novel to refresh your memory about how potent this attack was. Lord Adraas killed many Republic troops in this single attack and do you notice the collapsed pillar behind?

Originally posted by Q99
Link
Is this the image on left most side?

It doesn't indicates much, they are fighting in a rocky region and the intensity of damage inflicted is hard to determine.

I am sure that Darth Talon cannot just bore through surface of Jedi Temple with a single power-oriented jump, if this is your intended point.

Originally posted by Q99
Do you?

You seem to equate 'the quality of the sith of the reconstituted empire' with 'the top dozen people in said empire,' and not, like, the actual wide majority of them. Dark Council members are not average guides to quality of the sith in the empire, to state the obvious!
Issue here is your lack of knowledge and sweeping generalizations about ground realities of the Sith in the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire.

You really need to buy this book to understand why I rate the reconstituted ancient Sith so highly: http://www.amazon.com/Star-Wars-The-Republic-Encyclopedia/dp/0756698391

It explains every aspect of rise of a Sith to prominence within the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire from the training procedures to ascension to greatness in the Dark Council. This Empire is designed to ensure survival of the fittest in the higher echelons of power and breed quality. It is not designed to serve agenda of one person and minimize competition.

Originally posted by Q99
Talon's well well above, say Exal Kressh and Darth Vowrawn, to name some notable names who are stands-outs but aren't even a serious debate vs Talon.
Darth Talon is well above Exal Kressh? Joke of the century.

Check this thread and enlighten yourself: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=707012

And I really doubt that Darth Talon matches survival skills and smartness of Darth Vowrawn, he is also not lacking in strength aspect as much as you assume him to be, it is just that quality of Sith is very high in his era. Darth Talon does not seems to be Dark Council material by any stretch of imagination in the first place, forget comparing her to Darth Vowrawn.

Also, you are seriously mistaken if you assume that quality Sith existed only in the Dark Council. There were plenty formidable Sith outside Dark Council in the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire, some simply refused to join the Dark Council or get involved in backstabbing politics.

Originally posted by Q99
Not to mention all the Lords that various player characters take down in the games... Lord Savik died to the Voidhound, and she's not the only lord to fall to non-force-sensitives.
So?

Playable characters are monstrous in their capabilities, they are the best of the best in the galaxy within their respective classes.

Bounty Hunter defeated a Jedi Master of great power and skill as an example, Jun Seros. This Jedi Master was among the strongest of his time and quality of Jedi is higher in this era then it ever had been before.

I am confident that this Bounty Hunter would slaughter Darth Talon too. Now before you come up with proposition that this is impossible, let me remind you that Jun Seros is a confirmed master swordsman, battlemaster of the Order and is also exceptionally good in the ways of the Force. He stopped a missile strike from hitting him mid-fight and destroyed it with his extreme speed and power in the Force. He also demonstrated the capability to prevent firepower of a flamethrower to burn him and other impressive feats.

I advice you to stop underestimating TOR era greats and improve your knowledge.

Originally posted by Q99
You're thinking of Sidious, who restricted the strength of his servants so none could challenge him.

Krayt wanted them as a weapon against the galaxy and fight against the Jedi, and gain enough force knowledge to help him, especially if it involved curing his implants. He had Talon trained so she could rip secrets from her foes. Wyyrlok was tasked to study and gain as many ancient sources of knowledge as much as he could, and Maladi similar to improve her abilities (though she apparently horded a bit).

Heck, Vul Isen wasn't even a Darth and yet he was given access to the study of Sith Alchemy and was able to not just re-create but modify sith leviathans!

You can't just make up stuff about an order because you don't like them.
I am not making stuff about an Order based on my liking. I am well-aware of the fact that Darth Krayt went back to the roots of ancient Sith to improve himself and rebuild a Sith Order from ashes. However, Darth Krayt introduced the concept of Rule of One and he shaped and monopolized his Order accordingly to fit his agenda. He did train new Sith but they were trained with the intention to serve him and remain his puppets. They were not trained with the intention to become juggernauts and upsurp him when the time was right.

1, How many Sith existed in One Sith Order?
2. What were the ground realities of training procedures of Sith during this era?
3. Who are the strongest and most notable Lords excluding Darth Krayt himself?
4. Was there a Dark Council?
5. Was there incredible competition among the Sith for ascension to supremacy?
6. Did Darth Krayt permitted anybody to challenge him for supremacy under Kaggath rules?
7. Is One Sith Order designed to ensure survival of the fittest and ascension of strongest to greatness?

So many philosophical aspects.

What I have noticed is that only Wyyrlok III realized fallibility of One Sith Order based philosophy and challenged Darth Krayt for supremacy like a genuine Sih Lord would.

Why do you think I respect Darth Krayt and Wyyrlok III? Because these two are quality Sith.

I am not era biased, contrary to belief running here. It is just that people are no much aware of ground realities of reconstituted ancient Sith Empire and make sweeping generalizations about TOR era content, some do this based on their own biases, some do this out of ignorance and some do this for both reasons.

Originally posted by Q99
And, mind you, even Sith like Thanaton never *considered* it.
Considered what?

Originally posted by Q99
Krayt could be challenged, even if there was no formal mechanism. Vitiate could be challenged, but the sith we know as 'great' within the Empire were too cowed by him to do so. How is that different in practicality?
Once again, you are comparing ground realities of the two Orders without proper knowledge of the ancient one. Emperor of the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire could be challenged for supremacy even at official capacity based on Kaggath rules of the Empire. Emperor Vitiate designed a Sith Empire which promoted healthy competition, ensure survival of the fittest and produce highest quality Sith ever. He had been part of the ancient Sith Empire routed in Great Hyperspace War, learned valuable lessons from this war and ensured improvement of Sith in every possible manner. He created a Sith Order which surpassed the quality of Sith Order officially representing GOLDEN AGE OF SITH.

Darth Krayt created a different kind of Order with different kind of intentions, I have covered this part above.

Originally posted by Q99
One, she's young, she *just* graduated to her rank, that's like complaining that someone who just graduated absolute first in her college hasn't done much self-research- well, duh, she hasn't had opportunity to yet, she just completed her prior studies. Two, she's... specifically shown showing Cade ancient teachings of the sith, and she does use fairly advanced abilities in the mind-ripping in her fairly first outing. Three, Krayt often sends his people after more Sith knowledge, and four, he offers her and Nihl more power and knowledge still after his rebirth.
Graduated to her rank? What the hell is this supposed to mean?

She wasn't planning to challenge Darth Krayt for supremacy or something. She even stated this:

"We all live or die as Krayt wills, Stryfe. At his word, I would cut out my own heart. Or yours."

Seriously, Q99, stop trying to make up stuff project every Sith of legacy era as a legend or something. You are not doing your own era of liking any favor by arguing in favor of Darth Talon. Focus on the flaws in the One Sith Order and then get back to me.

Darth Krayt would offer her limited training, he didn't wanted anybody to challenge him for supremacy.

Originally posted by Q99
He allowed Wyyrlok to grow as strong as he did, why wouldn't he?
Wyyrlok III was an exception the norm in his era based on his own talents and skills. And he challenged Darth Krayt on his own accord. You cannot compare him to Darth Talon and other idiotic puppets like her. Shame on you.

Originally posted by Q99
An ambition he did not act on for centuries when Revan was no longer present to do it for him. At what point is an 'ambition' merely an excuse one makes for oneself?
Bro, you lost your mind?

Challenging Emperor Vitiate means absolute death. Even though Emperor Vitiate had permitted challenge to his rule at official capacity, only the most daring would ever do so.

Emperor's Wrath I was very smart and patient and waited for the right opportunity to set his plans in motion to upsurp Emperor Vitiate. This plan was put to motion when he met Hero of Tython.

Originally posted by Q99
But he's still an example of the strength of a Dark Lord of the Empire, and a dark councilor no less. Like you say, he held his own in many battles with even his relatively low strength. He's going to be stronger than a random sith warrior of the type used in the sack of Coruscant most likely.

He's weak, much weaker than Talon, yet he's most likely still not that far from the strength of a *normal* darth, it's just his cunning lets him pal around with the major powerhouses who hang with the council.
Darth Vowrawn is weaker then Darth Talon based on what?

You don't get to survive in many battles by being weak, Q99. Darth Vowrawn is much more battle-hardened and proven then Darth Talon contrary to how you may perceive him to be. A weak Sith Lord cannot last long in Dark Council, he will be eventually taken down at some point. However, Darth Vowrawn more then proved his worth to be counted among the greatest of the Lords.

Cunning is an important aspect for any Sith Lord, muscle does not works in every situation.

This is all making me roll my eyes out of the back of my head.

Anyone else find it annoying how despite making outrageous statements and holding ridiculous beliefs, Legend always feels the need to lecture his opponent and talk down to them?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Is this the image on left most side?

It doesn't indicates much, they are fighting in a rocky region and the intensity of damage inflicted is hard to determine.

I am sure that Darth Talon cannot just bore through surface of Jedi Temple with a single power-oriented jump, if this is your intended point.

What? No, they're not fighting in a rocky region, they're fighting inside a temple. It became rocky because Talon obliterated the floor with TK. It's an extremely impressive feat of raw TK strength and well above what Adraas did.

Originally posted by Nephthys
This is all making me roll my eyes out of the back of my head.

Anyone else find it annoying how despite making outrageous statements and holding ridiculous beliefs, Legend always feels the need to lecture his opponent and talk down to them?


Would it be a little upfront to say yes, very much so? >_>

Eh, **** it. Yes, so much yes, I don't think I could mean the true meaning of the word Yes anymore if I tried.

Also... bro: Revan, Surik, Jace Malcom vs Corran Horn, Saba Sebatyne and Chewbacca.

I need your help, I made a thread and I expect you to help

Originally posted by Nephthys
This is all making me roll my eyes out of the back of my head.

Anyone else find it annoying how despite making outrageous statements and holding ridiculous beliefs, Legend always feels the need to lecture his opponent and talk down to them?
I didn't realize that you consider yourself the judge, jury and executioner of the Star Wars subject. If you have anything constructive to share, please do. Otherwise, stop mocking me.

What are the outrageous statements and ridiculous beliefs by he way?

Originally posted by Nephthys
What? No, they're not fighting in a rocky region, they're fighting inside a temple. It became rocky because Talon obliterated the floor with TK. It's an extremely impressive feat of raw TK strength and well above what Adraas did.
Present the evidence properly then, who is stopping you?

It is a feat of raw power, not TK. Also, feats such as these do not indicate much in the context of combat ability and chances against other powerful Force-users. Cade Skywalker continued to fight unhindered. Its not like as if Darth Talon collapsed a building or something, this kind of development could have threatened survival of Cade Skywalker but destruction of part of floor? not so much.

It is apparent from the SWTOR Return Official Trailer that it takes Kao Cen Darach or an individual with superior combat ability to outgun Lord Vindican. Darth Talon is not this much capable. Don't be butt-hurt about this. In no way or form, this is an indication that Darth Talon is weak and her feats are not impressive. It is just that arguments presented in her favor are not good enough, destroying a portion of floor will be enough to stop Lord Vindican? Unlikely.

The aforementioned reasoning is valid for Lord Adraas as well; he destroyed a portion of floor in the Jedi Temple with a power-oriented jump on it, killing many Republic troops in the process with this move. However, is this an indication of his superiority or chances against other powerful Force-user in combat situations? Nope. Destroying a portion of floor will not be enough to stop a powerful Force-user, he would logically have much superior defensive abilities then normal soldiers. This feat only verifies that Lord Adraas have impressive raw power, not much else.

Originally posted by Selenial
Would it be a little upfront to say yes, very much so? >_>

Eh, **** it. Yes, so much yes, I don't think I could mean the true meaning of the word Yes anymore if I tried.
Here comes another one.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I didn't realize that you consider yourself the judge, jury and executioner of the Star Wars subject. If you have anything constructive to share, please do. Otherwise, stop mocking me.
I think we'd all be more comfortable with that request if you stopped talking down to everyone else.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
What are the outrageous statements and ridiculous beliefs by he way?
Well let's see... the viewpoint that those among the greatest fighters of any other era would be matched by any Sith in SWTOR who happens to have a name.

Darth Skotia≥Darth Tyranus, and any Darth in SWTOR>Talon both come to mind.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
I think we'd all be more comfortable with that request if you stopped talking down to everyone else.
Stopped talking down to everyone else? What do you mean?

I am providing arguments, counter-arguments and having a debate.

Who the hell gave you people the right to mock me for my debating activities and create hurdles in it?

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Well let's see... the viewpoint that those among the greatest fighters of any other era would be matched by any Sith in SWTOR who happens to have a name.

Darth Skotia≥Darth Tyranus, and any Darth in SWTOR>Talon both come to mind.
What does Darth Skotia and Count Dooku have anything to do with this thread?

Outrageous claim would be if I'd assert that Lord Vindican can defeat Darth Sidious. Nope.

Darth Skotia's position have been adequately discussed in another thread.

---

Provide a reasonable argument in favor of Darth Talon and this debate may simply end.

Here, let me help you:-

1. Prove that Darth Talon have struck down a master swordsman.
2. Show me a demonstration of lightsaber dueling ability of Darth Talon which seems to be on par with that of Kao Cen Darach.
3. Prove that Darth Talon have dominated a powerful Force-user with her powers.

I am not interested in subjective reasoning, I am interested in valid reasoning.

All I have seen so far is that Darth Talon destroyed a portion of floor and is good with a lightsaber. Is this information sufficient to establish her superiority over Lord Vindican? Nope.

Lord Vindican isn't a mook or will fall to a lesser foe. Kao Cen Darach took him out and he is evidently much more impressive then Darth Talon.

---

Let us consider hypothetical clash between Lord Adraas versus Darth Thanaton.

If I point out that Lord Adraas destroyed a portion of floor, killing Republic troops in the process, he have impressive raw power, would this be sufficient to establish his superiority over Darth Thanaton who is officially confirmed to be a supremely powerful Sith Lord and having insurmountable strength? Nope.

This kind of reasoning is weak and I cannot establish that Lord Adraas is better then Darth Thanaton.

1. She killed Elke Vetter
2. When she took on Wolf Sazen and Shado Vao simultaneously
3. Wolf Sazen and Shado Vao were both dominated by her powers

That's just from the first issue we see her in, naturally.

EDIT: Also, vulnerability and lack of durability? This lady got crushed under a shuttle, and then got up and continued fighting.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
1. She killed Elke Vetter
2. When she took on Wolf Sazen and Shado Vao simultaneously
3. Wolf Sazen and Shado Vao were both dominated by her powers
Ok

1. Is Elke Vetter an officially verified master swordsman?
2. Are Wolf Sazen and Shado Vao a match for Darth Malgus and Lord Vindican?
3. Same as above

Originally posted by NewGuy01
That's just from the first issue we see her in, naturally.

EDIT: Also, vulnerability and lack of durability? This lady got crushed under a shuttle, and then got up and continued fighting.
She didn't get crushed under a Shuttle then. Nonetheless, I would like to see this event.

Vulnerability point is relevant. Tell me, which soldier have better chance at survival in a battle, the one wearing armored clothing or the one wearing a bikini?

Originally posted by NewGuy01
1. She killed Elke Vetter


Elke Vetter being literally the master of the Emperor's daughter.




1) Yes.
Imperial Knights, specifically, have small numbers, because they only *get* the rank when they're the equivalent of combat-focused Jedi Masters. They stay in training until they reach that level. You will literally never see a full IK who's not a master, and this one specifically was the master training a very important person in combat.


2 Vindican? Quite probably, yes. Both have a lot of sword feats (Wolf Sazen killed a major sith commander. Shado Vao's stalemated a number of strong foes). Even Malgus at that point, yea, wouldn't surprise me. Malgus of course eventually blows them out of the water, but that's not til later.




They illustrate a pre-existing bias.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I didn't realize that you consider yourself the judge, jury and executioner of the Star Wars subject. If you have anything constructive to share, please do. Otherwise, stop mocking me.

What are the outrageous statements and ridiculous beliefs by he way?

I don't recall mocking you (recently). Calling your arguments bad is a statement of fact opinion.

Alot of what you're trying to push can be considered those things. Primarily that Skotia is equal to Dooku, a belief so unbelievable I thought you might well just be trolling me.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Present the evidence properly then, who is stopping you?

I don't own scans of the comic, so that's whats stopping me. But they're fighting in the Sith Temple. Do you think the Sith decorate their hallways with giant boulders? No, the floor is smooth. Until Talon ripped up the floor.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
It is a feat of raw power, not TK.

WTF? She's using TK, so it's a feat of TK.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Also, feats such as these do not indicate much in the context of combat ability and chances against other powerful Force-users.

They indicate a characters power with the force and with TK. You're fine with using the Barsen'thor's feat of smashing through that door even though it's not a feat in combat or done against another Force user. This is no different in concept.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Cade Skywalker continued to fight unhindered. Its not like as if Darth Talon collapsed a building or something, this kind of development could have threatened survival of Cade Skywalker but destruction of part of floor? not so much.

That Talon didn't direct her power at Cade is irrelevant in establishing her feat.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
It is apparent from the SWTOR Return Official Trailer that it takes Kao Cen Darach or an individual with superior combat ability to outgun Lord Vindican.

Lol. No, you don't need to be Darach to beat Vindican. Many lesser Jedi and Sith could likely defeat him.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Darth Talon is not this much capable. Don't be butt-hurt about this. In no way or form, this is an indication that Darth Talon is weak and her feats are not impressive. It is just that arguments presented in her favor are not good enough, destroying a portion of floor will be enough to stop Lord Vindican? Unlikely.

It's a better feat of TK than anything Vindican has done.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
The aforementioned reasoning is valid for Lord Adraas as well; he destroyed a portion of floor in the Jedi Temple with a power-oriented jump on it, killing many Republic troops in the process with this move. However, is this an indication of his superiority or chances against other powerful Force-user in combat situations? Nope.

Yes. If a force user hasn't demonstrated TK on that level then obviously Adraas' feat gives him an edge.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Destroying a portion of floor will not be enough to stop a powerful Force-user, he would logically have much superior defensive abilities then normal soldiers. This feat only verifies that Lord Adraas have impressive raw power, not much else.

Whats wrong with establishing raw power? Since when does that not play a part in these threads?

Originally posted by Q99
1) Yes.
All that is known about her is that she is an Imperial Knight.
Imperial Knights, specifically, have small numbers, because they only *get* the rank when they're the equivalent of combat-focused Jedi Masters. They stay in training until they reach that level.
I understand that she would be good with a lightsaber by virtue of being an Imperial Knight but this isn't enough to determine her actual prowess.

Do you have official accolades that praise Elke Vetter's dueling prowess?

Originally posted by Q99
2 Vindican? Quite possibly, yea. Both have a lot of sword feats.
Lord Vindican tanked a rocket and could unleash Force powers potent enough to incapacitate even powerful Force-users. He exchanged blows with a master swordsman of such a technical skill which is seldom witnessed/matched in the mythos and tolerated a direct cut-wound on his face from the lightsaber of his opponent during the duel. In-fact, Kao Cen Darach had to use multiple blades to get the opportunity to successfully impale Lord Vindican.

Trust me, Lord Vindican is much better then an average Jedi and Sith.

Originally posted by Q99
They illustrate a pre-existing bias.
And you are bias free?

You mistakenly try to assume that ground realities of Sith in all era are same. You always try to argue in favor of Darth Krayt and Darth Wyyrlok III in various threads, in-fact, you claim that even an ordinary individual of Legacy era is a powerful Force-user by Jedi and Sith standards. Focus on your own biases as well.

How the bloodly hell is this even a debate anymore?!

Your "Reconstituted Sith Empire" doesnt mean Shit. Talon has fought with the best of her time. Cade, Eike, Shado and Wolfen all of whom are vastly superior to Kao Cen Darach and Vindican. Her power TK feat is more impressive then what Vindican has done.

Seriously LeGenD, being a part of Vitiate's Sith Empire doesnt guarantee that character will win, being an inquisitor doesnt guarantee a win, training Malgus doesnt guarantee a win, Its like saying just because Zhar Lestin had a hand in training Revan and was a jedi master he's automatically Revan level. Like really! where's your logic? your common sense? You want us to help you look for it?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I understand that she would be good with a lightsaber by virtue of being an Imperial Knight but this isn't enough to determine her actual prowess.

Do you have official accolades that praise Elke Vetter's dueling prowess?

'Was hand-selected by the Emperor himself to train his daughter, who she successfully brought up to Imperial Knight level.'





Of course not.

But to your level? Certainly not, no question.


I often chime in on threads, and on quite a few threads where there's a character I like and another... I simply don't post because I recognize that I may not be impartial.





Nope, I assume that an average force user in an era with access to similar levels of training and force knowledge will be similar.



Often, but I've also been involved in plenty of threads where I say they lose, and additionally, as mentioned, I avoid some close threads if I think it may just be my preferences.

Note how additionally, I don't argue them against the most top foes most of the time. Wyyrlok is the second strongest Sith in his time. In my opinion, he'd lose to the second strongest Sith of TOR. He'd also lose to some of the Dark Council, but he'd beat many of them. This is not exactly an extraordinary claim of power here, it's a lot different than putting every named TOR sith above powerful sith of other eras.




Ah ah, it's no good making things up, you should know full well I've never argued that

A Jedi Knight or Sith warrior from Legacy has no particular advantage over a NJO, CW, or TOR one. They do have an advantage over a late-New Sith Wars one, but that's to be expected.


You may be confusing for when I said an Imperial Knight is powerful by average standards... but that is purely because the aforementioned 'they only give the title to master level fighters,' thing, it's a rank equivalent to Jedi Master/Sith Lord, and Masters/Lords are powerful by average standards as well.

The same could be accomplished by other orders simply by shuffling around titles.






In addition to the above on how I don't have as large ones *and* I specifically avoid fights where I think my reaction would be too based on bias, I will also comment on how someone else's biases do not erase or excuse your own, and your own are very significant. Quite a bit more significant than my own.


If you're aware you have significant biases in an area, maybe you should avoid debates in that area?

Originally posted by Q99
Of course not.

But to your level? Certainly not, no question.





Originally posted by Q99
In addition to the above on how I don't have as large ones *and* I specifically avoid fights where I think my reaction would be too based on bias, I will also comment on how someone else's biases do not erase or excuse your own, and your own are very significant. Quite a bit more significant than my own.

@Q99

I am not as era biased as you assume me to be. I don't let my liking of an era cloud my judgment.

I acknowledge greatness in all eras. I respect and admire Darth Krayt, Darth Wyyrlok III and Cade Skywalker from the Legacy era. These individuals are among the elites of the mythos and have proven credentials. Of-course, only these 3 are not the only ones who are impressive in Legacy times but others are not as impressive as you make them out to be.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
How the bloodly hell is this even a debate anymore?!You have established nothing so far that makes this a non-debate.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Your "Reconstituted Sith Empire" doesnt mean Shit. Talon has fought with the best of her time.
An Empire which was designed to create highest quality Sith doesn't means shit? Nice reasoning.

This is a baseline indication of quality of Sith existing in an era. Same baseline does not exists for Sith in Legacy era.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Cade, Eike, Shado and Wolfen all of whom are vastly superior to Kao Cen Darach and Vindican.
http://static.gamespot.com/uploads/scale_super/1290/12904714/2489297-jordan.gif

More importantly, when did Darth Talon ever defeat Cade Skywalker?

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Her power TK feat is more impressive then what Vindican has done.
It is not a TK feat, it is a demonstration of raw power. It confirms that Darth Talon can shatter structures and have sufficient raw power to use her telekinetic abilities to manipulate the environment to her advantage in a duel if necessary. However, same can be said for Lord Vindican.

Also Darth Talon's floor-shattering feat is superior to anything Lord Vindican have ever done? Did Darth Talon ever tanked a rocket as if it was nothing? Did Darth Talon unleashed powers potent enough to incapacitate individuals of lets say Darth Malgus's caliber?

Your reasoning is subjective and not conclusive.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Seriously LeGenD, being a part of Vitiate's Sith Empire doesnt guarantee that character will win, being an inquisitor doesnt guarantee a win, training Malgus doesnt guarantee a win, Its like saying just because Zhar Lestin had a hand in training Revan and was a jedi master he's automatically Revan level. Like really! where's your logic? your common sense? You want us to help you look for it?
A Sith did not become a Lord or Darth in the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire without proving his mettle first. This Empire was designed to produce powerful Sith Lords, to ensure survival of the Empire.

Sith Inquisitor implies mastery of the Force, this is an important revelation.

Revan had many instructors and he did his own homework as well. Zhar Lestin's situation is not comparable to that of Lord Vindican.

Lord Vindican also have feats that verify his decent combat ability, he is not utterly inconclusive. He have impressive defensive abilities and offensive abilities. He tanked a rocket as if it was nothing and his lightning power incapacitated powerful Darth Malgus for a while. He wasn't a walk in the park for Kao Cen Darach whose combat ability and expertise in lightsaber dueling arts is vastly superior to that of Darth Talon.

Darth Talon also have feats that verify her combat ability to a certain extent but her performances have element of vagueness, she outdueled some individuals who are theoretically good but they aren't powerhouses like Darth Malgus and Lord Vindican. When she was up against a powerhouse such as Cade Skywalker, she couldn't outduel him and got pwned in one of her confrontations. She have limits.

My common sense is working. Is yours?

Can do this all day broski.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD


http://static.gamespot.com/uploads/scale_super/1290/12904714/2489297-jordan.gif

More importantly, when did Darth Talon ever defeat Cade Skywalker?

Listing the opponent's she's fought against you damn fools. Must i be the meat in an imbecile sandwhich?


Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
It is not a TK feat, it is a demonstration of raw power. It confirms that Darth Talon can shatter structures and have sufficient raw power to use her telekinetic abilities to manipulate the environment to her advantage in a duel if necessary. However, same can be said for Lord Vindican.

Nothing suggest he can do the same thing even IF it was a show of raw power. Being an inquisitor doesnt automatically grant one vast knowledge of the dark side nor does it immediately make them a match for someone like Talon who is arguably only somewhat lesser than Nihl

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Also Darth Talon's floor-shattering feat is superior to anything Lord Vindican have ever done? Did Darth Talon ever tanked a rocket as if it was nothing? Did Darth Talon unleashed powers potent enough to incapacitate individuals of lets say Darth Malgus's caliber?..


Meanwhile Satale got back up without a scratch....as a padawan http://r26.imgfast.net/users/2613/36/14/96/smiles/2064095582.gif


And yours is based on over exaggerated assumptions and inaccuracies.



And no one within Krayt's forces is a weakling either.


Arguable but for the sake of keeping my sanity i'll agree with you, if only because of Nox. but Vindican isnt on Nox's level in terms of force mastery.



You ignore the point - Christ its like Legolas' arrows keep missing your bloody head! The point is, just because one is the master of an exceptionally talented padawan doesnt make one exceptionally talented as well - title holds no meaning. Need i point to Cin Drallig? or even Anoon Bondara who was a Jedi battlemaster and a watchmen.



Same could be said for Talon especially in the pain threshold department.



Ah yes - Mi dispiace Mio Amigo but i had to correct you, this seems much more fitting now si?



I was under the impression that you never had any considering your constant and foolish attempts at making the TOR era sith almost godlike

Not according to the observations of most of the posters here. You seem to give too much weight to simply being from TOR Empire, even when an individual is several tiers down within it and/or hasn't shown significant feats.




In their sparring session, Claws of the Dragon story. Stabbed him in the shoulder.

Also, late in the comic she was able to do a short clash and then evade him when she was delivering Draco. Which, while not a win, still shows she's quite skilled as that's when Cade is near his peak. Her main problem tends to be when she goes on offense, if she's just on defense she can evade even his (Talon ironically would be very good as a highly defensive duelist, but tends to be more aggressive, and while her aggression works against many foes, it does not work against Cade).

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Listing the opponent's she's fought against you damn fools. Must i be the meat in an imbecile sandwhich?
- Cade Skywalker is legit.
- The rest are Ok.
- None of those whom Darth Talon defeated are superior to Darth Malgus and Lord Vindican.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Nothing suggest he can do the same thing even IF it was a show of raw power.
Subjective claim unfortunately

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Being an inquisitor doesnt automatically grant one vast knowledge of the dark side nor does it immediately make them a match for someone like Talon who is arguably only somewhat lesser than Nihl.
What do you think Sith Inquisitor is?

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Meanwhile Satale got back up without a scratch....as a padawan http://r26.imgfast.net/users/2613/36/14/96/smiles/2064095582.gif
She wasn't subjected to a prolonged barrage but just a burst of lightning. Even that burst of lightning send her packing noticeable distance away from the battlefield. After this event, Kao Cen Darach convinced Satele Shan to leave the battle and escape.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
And yours is based on over exaggerated assumptions and inaccuracies.
Utter bullshit.

All I see in your claims is utter lowballing of TOR era characters with claims that the individuals whom Darth Talon fought are vastly superior to Lord Vindican and Kao Cen Darach and mostly subjective claims.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
And no one within Krayt's forces is a weakling either.
Kindly provide official information that validate this claim.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Arguable but for the sake of keeping my sanity i'll agree with you, if only because of Nox. but Vindican isnt on Nox's level in terms of force mastery.
Its not arguable, read official information and educate yourself: http://www.swtor.com/holonet/classes/sith-inquisitor

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
You ignore the point - Christ its like Legolas' arrows keep missing your bloody head! The point is, just because one is the master of an exceptionally talented padawan doesnt make one exceptionally talented as well - title holds no meaning. Need i point to Cin Drallig? or even Anoon Bondara who was a Jedi battlemaster and a watchmen.
I didn't ignore your point. Zhar Lestin cannot take credit of being the sole instructor of Revan. The latter had many instructors to hone his talents.

I don't know much about Darth Malgus's training history but Lord Vindican is his best known instructor and mentor.

After the extermination of Brotherhood of Darkness, Jedi Order slowly but surely grew out of touch of its element of vigilance and competence. This is why we see individuals such as Cin Dralling becoming Battlemasters of the Order during the era of peace. To be honest, Mace Windu would have been much better choice but what I can say about it, I didn't wrote this content.

Anoon Bondara wasn't bad, he became victim of an accident.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Same could be said for Talon especially in the pain threshold department.
Tolerating pain is different from tanking explosive power and kinetic force of a rocket or missile.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Ah yes - Mi dispiace Mio Amigo but i had to correct you, this seems much more fitting now si?
Lame

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
I was under the impression that you never had any considering your constant and foolish attempts at making the TOR era sith almost godlike
Its funny that you regard me as lacking common sense when you aren't using yours.

Legend, they don't NEED to be better than Vindican and Malgus... Only Vindican.

BECAUSE SHE'S FIGHTING VINDICAN.

Note, while we're talking Malgus, this is NOT Darth Malgus, Emperor, or Darth Malgus, invader of Coruscant, or even, Darth Malgus, fighter of Satele Shan.

This is before any of that, when he's weaker than any of that. The Ven Zallow he killed would kick this early Malgus's butt. And this Malgus is stronger than Vindican.

So yea, they might not be stronger than the two of them combined, but they've certainly got better dueling feats than Vindican by a good margin.

Even as he was weaker he was still able to swat away ship parts that weighed tons that were TKed at him, use force shield to deflect fire, and outduel a battlemaster and his padawan. Not bad for a 20 year old trainee

Originally posted by carthage
Even as he was weaker he was still able to swat away ship parts that weighed tons that were TKed at him, use force shield to deflect fire, and outduel a battlemaster and his padawan. Not bad for a 20 year old trainee

Sure, but people say Malgus and think of him at his *best* ^^ Malgus grows several fold strong over time.

Heck, 'around 20 years old, just out from under their master, capable of TKing tons and fights masters,' is a description that fits Talon too. At this point, their feats are surprisingly similar.

Based on feats Talon has more to draw from, as we only have a small portion of Malgus's life to draw from. But yeah I agree that's obviously him at his most primal

I found this:

The Sith Inquisitor is a master of the dark side of the Force.

Source: http://www.swtor-spy.com/codex/sith-inquisitor/103/

My point have been officially validated. It is ironic that some so-called intellectuals of this forum try to pretend that they understand ground realities of the lore better then me without doing their own homework.

That means nothing I'm afraid.

That's like saying that Jedi Masters are extremely powerful, and then using it as a quote for Coleman Trebor.

Also, that's a codex entry describing Nox, but it's pretty ambiguous.

Originally posted by Q99
Note, while we're talking Malgus, this is NOT Darth Malgus, Emperor, or Darth Malgus, invader of Coruscant, or even, Darth Malgus, fighter of Satele Shan.

This is before any of that, when he's weaker than any of that. The Ven Zallow he killed would kick this early Malgus's butt. And this Malgus is stronger than Vindican.

So yea, they might not be stronger than the two of them combined, but they've certainly got better dueling feats than Vindican by a good margin.
You may not be aware but Darth Malgus became one of the greatest warriors of the Empire prior to confrontation with Kao Cen Darach. In-fact, his performance against Kao Cen Darach is verification of Darth Malgus's official hype as one of the greatest warriors of the Empire prior to this confrontation.

In addition, Satele Shan mentioned about her confrontations with Darth Malgus in a book and her revelations are that she have not come across an embodiment of the dark side like Darth Malgus, this statement represents her meeting with him (Darth Malgus) for the first time near Korriban on a space station.

Darth Malgus was already very powerful at the time of his confrontation with Kao Cen Darach, his understanding of the Force continued to improve later on.

---

Better dueling feats then Lord Vindican by good margin?

You people continue to vastly underrate dueling ability of Kao Cen Darach and Lord Vindican.

Lord Vindican demonstrated great speed, agility and dueling ability by going toe-to-toe against Kao Cen Darach for a while during their confrontation. Kao Cen Darach have demonstrated dueling ability of such a caliber which is not norm in the mythos, his ability to effectively use both double-bladed lightsaber along with normal lightsaber simultaneously is something to behold and truly amazing display of skill and technical prowess. It is with such skill that he managed to impale Lord Vindican.

Originally posted by Q99
Sure, but people say Malgus and think of him at his *best* ^^ Malgus grows several fold strong over time.

Heck, 'around 20 years old, just out from under their master, capable of TKing tons and fights masters,' is a description that fits Talon too. At this point, their feats are surprisingly similar.
Problem is that you do not have proper knowledge of baseline ground realities of either Lord Vindican and nor Darth Malgus, in-fact TOR era Jedi and Sith on the whole.

Baseline ground reality of Lord Vindican is that he is a master of the dark side by virtue of being a Sith Inquisitor.

Baseline ground reality of Darth Malgus, as of Return Trailer, is that he is already one of the greatest warriors of the Empire.

Also, when have Darth Talon tore through multi-tonned starship parts and cut down a Jedi Master as strong and capable as Kao Cen Darach with sheer raw power and dominating strikes?

You make absurd kind of comparisons, rich with hype for Legacy era characters.

Originally posted by Selenial
That means nothing I'm afraid.

That's like saying that Jedi Masters are extremely powerful, and then using it as a quote for Coleman Trebor.

Also, that's a codex entry describing Nox, but it's pretty ambiguous.
That codex entry does not describes Darth Nox exclusively, it is a general codex entry representing Sith Inquisitor class of the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire.

Originally posted by Selenial

Also, that's a codex entry describing Nox, but it's pretty ambiguous.

Yes. "The Sith Inquisitor" can very well be describing the Sith Inquisitor, not sith inquisitors in general. Even if the entry as a whole is about the class, there is the word choiceage of 'the'.


(Also, should I mention that OneSith have sith inquisitors as well...?)




Feats > Lore, every time.


Though it's not like Legacy stuff is lacking in lore. A few bits from the Legacy campaign guide:

Talon, 'conditioned to be in top physical condition,' 'fast, agile, and has a diversity of skills that makes her one of the most deadly combatants around.' 'Formidable lightsaber duelist.'

Maladi, 'master of assassination,' 'extremely skilled in sith alchemy.'

Wyyrlok, 'one of the greatest scholars of Jedi, Sith, and other force-using tradition,' 'access to books, scrolls, and holocrons from across the eons,' 'By sheer force of will, a sith can achieve almost anything, and Darth Wyyrlok demonstrates this in everything he does.'

Azard's a 'master of the double bladed lightsaber' who closely studies and follows the history of Vader.

I mean, it's less focused on calling everyone 'powerful' than the TOR encyclopedia, even Cade's section is largely about personal goals and motivations, but it still occasionally lays it on thick. It's just the feats are a better guide on the whole.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Problem is that you do not have proper knowledge of baseline ground realities of either Lord Vindican and nor Darth Malgus, in-fact TOR era Jedi and Sith on the whole.

I'd throw the same thing back at you regarding Talon and the Legacy era.

Originally posted by Selenial
That's like saying that Jedi Masters are extremely powerful, and then using it as a quote for Coleman Trebor.

Jedi Masters aren't extremely powerful. On an Order basis they are decent at best. I suggest you buy the Swtor encyclopedia to get a better grasp on the ground realities of the mythos. Only individuals who have been explicitly stated to be powerful are, 100% tru fax.

/Legend.

Originally posted by Q99
Not according to the observations of most of the posters here. You seem to give too much weight to simply being from TOR Empire, even when an individual is several tiers down within it and/or hasn't shown significant feats.
Unfortunately, most of the posters do not have TOR Enyclopedia at their disposal.

I do not give too much weightage to the quality of TOR Empire just for the sake of it being a TOR Empire, I pay attention to content.

If necessary, I create separate threads to address some misconceptions concerning TOR era content. The thread about Harrower-class starship is a good example.

People need to focus on holistic picture of developments of the mythos instead of just X did this and why did that and sweeping generalizations.

Originally posted by Q99
In their sparring session, Claws of the Dragon story. Stabbed him in the shoulder.
I don't take sparring contests at face value.

Originally posted by Q99
Also, late in the comic she was able to do a short clash and then evade him when she was delivering Draco. Which, while not a win, still shows she's quite skilled as that's when Cade is near his peak. Her main problem tends to be when she goes on offense, if she's just on defense she can evade even his (Talon ironically would be very good as a highly defensive duelist, but tends to be more aggressive, and while her aggression works against many foes, it does not work against Cade).
You do not disclose the entire picture properly:-

- Wolf Sazen had lost an arm before his confrontation with Darth Talon, to Darth Nihl. It is obvious that his effectiveness was impaired by this loss.

- Cade Skywalker heavily injured Darth Talon by hurling some debris at her like a missile.

- When Darth Talon came back to confront the Jedi, she was accompanied by Darth Nihl and other Sith this time.

- When Cade Skywalker fought Darth Talon for the first time properly, he subdued her and was about to kill her but Darth Nihl saved her life by choking Cade Skywalker at the right moment.

- During the second major confrontation with Cade Skywalker, the Jedi Knight literally one-shotted Darth Talon.

---

Now tell me, what is so impressive about Darth Talon? She did kill some Jedi but what else? Floor-shattering feat? Not a decisive trump card for victory against a proper Sith Lord.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'd throw the same thing back at you regarding Talon and the Legacy era.
See above

Are you going to concede to me in the Nox vs Dooku and Golden Age threads or what?

Originally posted by Q99
Yes. "The Sith Inquisitor" can very well be describing the Sith Inquisitor, not sith inquisitors in general. Even if the entry as a whole is about the class, there is the word choiceage of 'the'.
If you have played the game, you will know that codex entries are not necessarily about playable characters exclusively, only some are and they contain the word "you."

That codex entry represents Sith Inquisitor class of the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire.

Originally posted by Q99
(Also, should I mention that OneSith have sith inquisitors as well...?)
They are?

Darth Sidious also had Inquisitors but they are different from Sith Inquisitors of the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire.

Originally posted by Q99
Feats > Lore, every time.
Every bit of information is important.

Originally posted by Q99
Though it's not like Legacy stuff is lacking in lore. A few bits from the Legacy campaign guide:

Talon, 'conditioned to be in top physical condition,' 'fast, agile, and has a diversity of skills that makes her one of the most deadly combatants around.' 'Formidable lightsaber duelist.'

Maladi, 'master of assassination,' 'extremely skilled in sith alchemy.'

Wyyrlok, 'one of the greatest scholars of Jedi, Sith, and other force-using tradition,' 'access to books, scrolls, and holocrons from across the eons,' 'By sheer force of will, a sith can achieve almost anything, and Darth Wyyrlok demonstrates this in everything he does.'

Azard's a 'master of the double bladed lightsaber' who closely studies and follows the history of Vader.

I mean, it's less focused on calling everyone 'powerful' than the TOR encyclopedia, even Cade's section is largely about personal goals and motivations, but it still occasionally lays it on thick. It's just the feats are a better guide on the whole.
This is good information, not enough to help Darth Talon in this contest but nonetheless informative.

Also, TOR Enyclopedia doesn't labels everybody powerful. It labels even Revan as powerful and mighty at maximum. The Encyclopedia is conservative in comparison to novels, Encyclopedic mediums always are. You need to buy TOR Encyclopedia and read it.

Does the TOR encyclopedia have anything on the Republic Special forces division?

I don't have it with me, only lent it from a friend. Tempted to buy it but I'm not sure it's worth the stupid amount it costs (compared to other sourcebooks)

Yep. What would you like to know about them?

Yes, it does.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yep. What would you like to know about them?

A scan, quick summary or anything would be great.

They're one of my ground forces, and I don't actually have any sources on them.

And **** Wookieepedia.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

They are?

Darth Sidious also had Inquisitors but they are different from Sith Inquisitors of the reconstituted ancient Sith Empire.


Yes, they have full sith Inquisitors, including Darth Havok, former leader of the Imperial Knights who fell to the dark side.



To be fair, help seems redundant when feats say she has the edge, isn't it?

Originally posted by Q99
Yes, they have full sith Inquisitors, including Darth Havok, former leader of the Imperial Knights who fell to the dark side.
I am surprised that Krayt did not use these individuals much.

Originally posted by Q99
To be fair, help seems redundant when feats say she has the edge, isn't it?
Unfortunately, this is not the case.

Floor-shattering feat is indecisive. In addition, when some debris was hurled at her like a missile from Skywalker, she was not able to tank it and was knocked out for a while. In contrast, Lord Vindican tanked a missile as if it was nothing. Missile is much more lethal offensive weapon then some debris that is hurled like a missile towards a target and also more difficult to counter accordingly. This is clear depiction of disparity between the Force abilities of both.

You have overhyped Talon too much but I killed the hype in my previous post. Talon have never defeated an opponent as powerful and capable as Kao Cen Darach in single combat and neither she have taken out Sith Inquisitors. Let go.

Originally posted by Selenial
A scan, quick summary or anything would be great.

They're one of my ground forces, and I don't actually have any sources on them.

And **** Wookieepedia.
At-least 4 pages are dedicated to the Republic special forces in TOR Encyclopedia.

THE REPUBLIC ARMY'S Special Forces Division, or "SpecForce," is wholly different from any military organization. The rest of the military operates on a grand scale, deploying massive forces of troops, armored walkers, and starships to fight conventional battles against the Empire. SpecForce does the opposite: small teams of elite soldiers outmaneuver the enemy to strike where they are most vulnerable, inflicting damage and spreading chaos far out of proportion to their size. With their advanced equipment, extensive training, and high degree of operational flexibility, even a single SpecForce soldier is a force to be reckoned with. (TOR Encylopedia, page 42)

Vindican hasn't defeated an opponent on the caliber of darach either :/

Originally posted by Selenial
A scan, quick summary or anything would be great.

They're one of my ground forces, and I don't actually have any sources on them.

And **** Wookieepedia.

I'm not very good at scanning or hosting images so if I screwed up I'll try again:

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=23ic574&s=8#.U96x3WP8few
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=153qxw1&s=8#.U96yL2P8few
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2lsuttx&s=8#.U96yoGP8few
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=eu53t4&s=8#.U96y1WP8few
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2dl56b5&s=8#.U96zDmP8few
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2je73no&s=8#.U96zPWP8few

Sorry for the poor quality.

Yeah, these guys are bamf. Captured the Dread Masters under the command of Jaric Kaedan.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Floor-shattering feat is indecisive. In addition, when some debris was hurled at her like a missile from Skywalker, she was not able to tank it and was knocked out for a while. In contrast, Lord Vindican tanked a missile as if it was nothing. Missile is much more lethal offensive weapon then some debris that is hurled like a missile towards a target and also more difficult to counter accordingly. This is clear depiction of disparity between the Force abilities of both.


Hah, 'some debris' as in an entire spaceship well over twice as tall as a person and fairly long. That's a massive understatement for the purpose of misleading there. Wredd took out Ania Solo with 'some debris' (Ania being a non-force user, he just took some loose metal and wrapper her in it). Talon was hit with a space ship. Do you know how many people survive having a spaceship thrown at them and not only survived but gotten into serious lightsaber duels later that day? Not many!

Not to mention, she was able to escape and call for reinforcements- not only the thrown ship didn't knock her out for long enough for anyone to find her and finish the job, we don't actually have a sign that it knocked her out at all. Cade's force power shown there combined with still having other more trained force users to worry about just made her rethink the 'go it solo' approach.





Nope, you fail at that.

Darth Talon has superior TK to Vindican. Talon has superior dueling to Vindican. Talon has superior physical ability. Talon has superior illusion (did you know she has illusion? She does, she was able to disguise herself as Marasiah Fel via the force).

And what you come up with in response is comparing her to someone... who flat-out killed Vindican anyway. Someone can be weaker than Kao Cen Darach and still kill Vindican.



Arguable, Sazen and Shado have some very good feats (even putting aside Cade), but as others have pointed out, she's not fighting Kao Cen Darach anyway, she's fighting Vindican, who is no Kao Cen Darach, and couldn't even stay alive against KCD with Malgus fighting alongside him.

You are way overhyping the *third* most powerful person in that fight by somehow requiring her being stronger than the *second* most powerful as a bare-minimum to beat the *third*. Think about that for a moment.




She's been promoted over Sith Inquisitors.

Originally posted by Q99
Hah, 'some debris' as in an entire spaceship well over twice as tall as a person and fairly long. That's a massive understatement for the purpose of misleading there.
This;

Sazen tells Cade to take Marasiah to his ship and flee but Cade chooses to stay using the Force to pick up a pile of junk and hurl it at Darth Talon knocking her into the trees. (Wookieepedia)

Here is an image:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/File:Talon_Vendaxa.JPG

I am not sure if this is the same wreckage but doesn't seems like an object that a well-trained Force-user cannot handle.

Originally posted by Q99
Wredd took out Ania Solo with 'some debris' (Ania being a non-force user, he just took some loose metal and wrapper her in it). Talon was hit with a space ship. Do you know how many people survive having a spaceship thrown at them and not only survived but gotten into serious lightsaber duels later that day? Not many!
Firstly, stop exaggerating. Secondly, did you see how even young Malgus tore through a large starship engine while it was hurled at him like a missile? That starship engine is about the size of engine of a large passenger plane in real life. A large starship engine is a multi-tonned object full of machine inside it and ripping it apart in the manner as Malgus did requires great power, and experience can be lethal since this ripping apart a starship or aeroplane engine results in a powerful explosion but Malgus was unfazed and not injured.

Later on, Malgus tanked a missile that was fired at him by Jace Malcom, he did suffer some injuries from this development but he was fine. In-fact, Lord Vindican also found himself in the same situation as Malgus did on Aldeeran but the former not just outright tanked the missile but even dissipated the explosion of the missile in the process, more impressive.

I also recall Anakin Skywalker getting buried beneath large rocks inside a cave, rocks representing chunks of the ceiling of the cave that were ripped apart by Count Dooku to crush Anakin Skywalker beneath but the Jedi Knight broke free from the debris without much issue a while afterwards and was not injured.

These are the details that you need to focus upon. I think that both Lord Vindican and Darth Malgus can handle stuff that was thrown at Darth Talon. How many do you think have demonstrated the capability to tank missiles? Few.

Originally posted by Q99
Not to mention, she was able to escape and call for reinforcements- not only the thrown ship didn't knock her out for long enough for anyone to find her and finish the job, we don't actually have a sign that it knocked her out at all. Cade's force power shown there combined with still having other more trained force users to worry about just made her rethink the 'go it solo' approach.
I understand the part about bringing allies but your exaggerations other then this part are an issue.

Originally posted by Q99
Nope, you fail at that.

Darth Talon has superior TK to Vindican. Talon has superior dueling to Vindican. Talon has superior physical ability. Talon has superior illusion (did you know she has illusion? She does, she was able to disguise herself as Marasiah Fel via the force).

And what you come up with in response is comparing her to someone... who flat-out killed Vindican anyway. Someone can be weaker than Kao Cen Darach and still kill Vindican.
1. Have we seen Lord Vindican's telekinetic actions? Can we draw a comparison here? Nope. But since he is a Sith Inquisitor, it is logical to assume that he doesn't sucks with TK.

2. Superior dueling to Lord Vindican based on what? Lord Vindican went toe-to-toe against Kao Cen Darach for a decent amount of time. Kao Cen Darach have demonstrated much superior dueling ability then Darth Talon, unfortunately for you. Quite babbling and exaggerating.

3. Talon have superior physical ability? Vindican performed acrobatic actions, dodged Darach's assaults, survived lightsaber stab on his face and even the impalement action later on. Don't presume too much.

4. By virtue of being a Sith Inquisitor, Lord Vindican would have great understanding of the Force and might be aware of illusions based stuff.

5. Kao Cen Darach represents the benchmark for handling an opponent of Lord Vindican's caliber. Your speculation is baseless.

Originally posted by Q99
Arguable, Sazen and Shado have some very good feats (even putting aside Cade), but as others have pointed out, she's not fighting Kao Cen Darach anyway, she's fighting Vindican, who is no Kao Cen Darach, and couldn't even stay alive against KCD with Malgus fighting alongside him.
Did you watch the SWTOR Return trailer properly? I'd suggest you do it.

When the Jedi and Sith duos confronted each other, Darth Malgus fought Satele Shan while Lord Vindican fought Kao Cen Darach. As the duel progressed, Kao Cen Darach saved his apprentice's life from Malgus's killing blow but then she found herself getting subjected to Vindican's powers. Kao Cen Darach stopped Vindican from hurting Satele Shan by unleashing a blast of power on him at the right moment, and then convinced his apprentice to escape because she was utterly outclassed in this contest. After this, Kao Cen Darach began to fight both Malgus and Vindican simultaneously using multiple blades and successfully deflected Vindican's lightning towards Malgus with his extreme bladework and deflective capabilities which knocked out Malgus for a while. Then fight came back to 1 on 1 between Vindican and Darach but the latter had advantage of superior technical swordsmanship and was using multiple blades for dueling during this second phase, this permitted Darach to impale Vinidcan.

Stop generalizing and underestimating Vindican, focus on the available evidence.

Originally posted by Q99
You are way overhyping the *third* most powerful person in that fight by somehow requiring her being stronger than the *second* most powerful as a bare-minimum to beat the *third*. Think about that for a moment.
I am not overhyping anybody. I cam calling a spade a spade.

Originally posted by Q99
She's been promoted over Sith Inquisitors.
Her promotion is irrelevant to what Sith Inquisitors are capable of. She was so loyal to Darth Krayt that she was willing to give her life for him, such a puppet. No wonder, Krayt found her better candidate for being a Hand.

That picture is of Talon disarming the crew, but nice try. Cade throws a destroyed ship at Talon, and she recovers fairly quickly.

Talon is quite possibly my least favorite Sith LeGenD, but you are criminally underrating her.

This is the ship Cade throws:

http://i1349.photobucket.com/albums/p751/Intrepid37/legacy1_zpse4405933.png

Note how it's a lot taller than Cade.


And this shows just how far it is at the start (consider that with the size-perspective, the ships probably bigger than it looks), as well as some general Talon kicking butt:

http://i1288.photobucket.com/albums/b497/sierlean/TalonshipSazen2pages.jpg




'Not sucking' and 'as good as Talon' are two very different things.



Based on 'holding on for awhile- with help- and then dying' not being nearly as good as 'stabbing Cade in a practice duel,' 'holding on for a long time against known badasses and *not* dying,' and the page above.

And... Kao Cen Darach doesn't have all that much in the way of dueling feats himself. Don't get me wrong, he's good! But he's not, say, Ven Zallow.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Talon is quite possibly my least favorite Sith LeGenD, but you are criminally underrating her.
Maybe this is the object:

http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/e/e0/Cade_force.JPG

Seems like a starship part. I will check the comics today for greater clarity.

Please keep in mind that it is not my intention to criminally underestimate Darth Talon. However, I am noticing criminal underestimation of Lord Vindican.

Also, about the floor-shattering feat:

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b219/Q99/LegacyWar5TalonvsCade.jpg

This action is not on the scale on that of Lord Adraas, comics are very vague at depicting details properly (entire scenery omitted on purpose). I was correct, Talon was fighting Cade on a rocky surface and the magnitude of damage inflicted upon the floor is hard to determine because the floor was not a proper floor to begin with and scenery is not properly depicted.

Lord Adraas shattered a portion of a proper hardened floor inside the Jedi Temple, causing a nearby pillar to collapse and killing a dozen Republic troops in the process.

Originally posted by Q99
This is the ship Cade throws:

http://i1349.photobucket.com/albums/p751/Intrepid37/legacy1_zpse4405933.png

Note how it's a lot taller than Cade.


And this shows just how far it is at the start (consider that with the size-perspective, the ships probably bigger than it looks), as well as some general Talon kicking butt:

http://i1288.photobucket.com/albums/b497/sierlean/TalonshipSazen2pages.jpg
Thanks for providing some scans. I will check the comics as well.

However, these scenes do not properly depict the size of starship part. The top image is better at depicting the size though. Large object indeed.

Originally posted by Q99
'Not sucking' and 'as good as Talon' are two very different things.
You cannot even make a comparison in this case.

Originally posted by Q99
Based on 'holding on for awhile- with help- and then dying' not being nearly as good as 'stabbing Cade in a practice duel,' 'holding on for a long time against known badasses and *not* dying,' and the page above.
Practice duels are not to be taken at face value.

Show me real battles between Cade and Talon. Oh wait, Cade overwhelmed Talon in the first duel and one-shotted her in the final duel. Not a good picture.

Originally posted by Q99
And... Kao Cen Darach doesn't have all that much in the way of dueling feats himself. Don't get me wrong, he's good! But he's not, say, Ven Zallow.
Yeah right.

Kao Cen Darach demonstrated the capability to handle Darth Malgus and Lord Vindican simultaneously for a while and the technical prowess he demonstrated with multiple blades is something that you don't see in the mythos generally, in-fact, such display of skill is one of its kind. Don't be asinine.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Please keep in mind that it is not my intention to criminally underestimate Darth Talon. However, I am noticing criminal underestimation of Lord Vindican
Except it's really not. Saying Vindican would lose to the 4th greatest Sith of another era isn't anywhere near as bad as saying the 4th greatest Sith of another era loses to any random ass Darth in SWTOR.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Except it's really not. Saying Vindican would lose to the 4th greatest Sith of another era isn't anywhere near as bad as saying the 4th greatest Sith of another era loses to any random ass Darth in SWTOR.
Talon being 4th best in her era is subjective assessment, not an officially determined position. In addition, Talon doesn't have Kao level dueling ability and power. It is subjective and speculative to assert that she can handle Vindican.

Talon's feats have been exaggerated while Kao and Vindican have been lowballed, this is what I have witnessed in this thread. Vindican lost to a much superior opponent then Talon and it was still a fight. Talon's chances aren't so bright.

- Vindican tanked a rocket without an issue, I don't see anybody praising him for this performance. This feat alone is a display of great command of Force.

- Vindican's powers were potent enough to overwhelm young Darth Malgus, I don't see anybody taking note of this.

- Talon's vulnerability to offensive actions due to her insignificant dressing have not been noted by anybody but only me.

- No acknowledgment of Kao's remarkable dueling skills either. Such level of skill was needed to outduel Vindican.

So you're just going to *assume* equality with someone who's been shown to be actively very strong in the area?



Originally posted by Emperordmb
Except it's really not. Saying Vindican would lose to the 4th greatest Sith of another era isn't anywhere near as bad as saying the 4th greatest Sith of another era loses to any random ass Darth in SWTOR.

I'd actually put her a bit lower than 4th (Maladi IMO is likely stronger, or at least effectively so due to being more experienced. Talon has raw power and training, but her tactics often aren't optimal for her skillset)... but still, yea, she's in the rankings!

Her job, literally, is to hunt down and capture or kill Jedi Masters. There's no particular shame in losing to a Sith who's job is 'personal assassin of the Dark Lord of the Sith.'


Those two Jedi she took down shortly before the ship throw? Well, there was just an incident where 5 sith took down a Jedi Knight and a Jedi Master, and then those two slaughtered the 5 without breaking a sweat. They are *good*, and they still had that happen to them (though to be fair, on other occasions they're able to stalemate her). They are noteworthy, major Jedi with plenty of feats under their belts.

Originally posted by Q99
So you're just going to *assume* equality with someone who's been shown to be actively very strong in the area?
Very strong in the area? I don't see anything from Talon that implies that she is "very strong" with TK by mythos standards.

Also, how can you even declare superiority of Talon over Vindican in the matters of TK? Do you even have an idea of Vindican's TK abilities? Your reasoning is not sound.

Originally posted by Q99
I'd actually put her a bit lower than 4th (Maladi IMO is likely stronger, or at least effectively so due to being more experienced. Talon has raw power and training, but her tactics often aren't optimal for her skillset)... but still, yea, she's in the rankings!
I believe that Maladi, Havok and Nihl are above her.

Originally posted by Q99
Her job, literally, is to hunt down and capture or kill Jedi Masters. There's no particular shame in losing to a Sith who's job is 'personal assassin of the Dark Lord of the Sith.'
There is no shame to loosing a Sith who is actually an Inquisitor in an era during which standards for becoming a Sith have been ridiculously high. Learn more about TOR era Sith Inquisitor class from here: http://www.swtor.com/holonet/classes/sith-inquisitor

Sith Inquisitors are masters of the dark arts, confirmed in a codex entry as well (evidence presented in this thread). Also, apparent from how easily Vindican tanked a rocket and dissipated its explosion.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm not very good at scanning or hosting images so if I screwed up I'll try again:

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=23ic574&s=8#.U96x3WP8few
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=153qxw1&s=8#.U96yL2P8few
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2lsuttx&s=8#.U96yoGP8few
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=eu53t4&s=8#.U96y1WP8few
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2dl56b5&s=8#.U96zDmP8few
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2je73no&s=8#.U96zPWP8few

Sorry for the poor quality.

I love you <3

Ants not here, marry me

Sure, there's no shame... but, her feats *Surpass* his. Talon has a better dueling history (no, 'lasting awhile against one skilled duelist and dying' is not up to 'lasting a longer time against a skilled duelist and not dying,' actually stabbed Cade, or jumping into the middle of multiple major masters and using a combination of physical and force to scatter and wound them), better force feats, more agility. Actual victories.

And there's no doubt she's stronger than many Sith Inquisitors. If you're seriously suggesting every sith inquisitor is up to Rule of One Hand level...

Originally posted by Q99
Sure, there's no shame... but, her feats *Surpass* his.
I disagree

Rocket tanking feat >

Originally posted by Q99
Talon has a better dueling history (no, 'lasting awhile against one skilled duelist and dying' is not up to 'lasting a longer time against a skilled duelist and not dying,' actually stabbed Cade, or jumping into the middle of multiple major masters and using a combination of physical and force to scatter and wound them), better force feats, more agility. Actual victories.
Talon have been depicted fighting greater number of foes, Vindican have been depicted in just one duel. Your assessment is subjective, Q99.

Are you implying that Vindican cannot defeat other skilled combatants among Jedi and Sith? Actually he can. Unfortunately for him, he met Kao Cen Darach on Korriban.

Kao Cen Darach isn't just a skilled duelist, he is remarkably skilled duelist by mythos standards. If you are trying to formulate an assessment, kindly do so with fairness.

Of-course, Talon did give Cade some challenge, in the first duel, but it ended badly for her. In the second duel, Cade literally one-shotted her, this development doesn't helps Talon's reputation.

Better force feats? Subjective. Wrong.

More agility? Once again subjective. Vindican performed acrobatics and dodged Kao's attacks, he isn't slow or slower.

Actual victories? By virtue of greater exploration. I am sure that authors didn't intend to represent Vindican as a looser or not capable of winning battles.

Originally posted by Q99
And there's no doubt she's stronger than many Sith Inquisitors. If you're seriously suggesting every sith inquisitor is up to Rule of One Hand level..
Once again, you know this how?

She isn't an absolute master of the dark arts. She does have decent command of the Force but same is the situation with all Lords.

Sith Inquisitors of the Empire are prodigies, I suppose you haven't read the links that I provided.

Originally posted by Selenial
I love you <3

Ants not here, marry me
I sensed a disturbance in my marriage and came.
---- ---- ----
Go **** yourself, you don't stand a chance.

Did you now?




Will that make you come as well? I bet Neph would be jealous.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Will that make you come as well?
I see what you did there.http://r26.imgfast.net/users/2613/36/14/96/smiles/2064095582.gif

More than 'decent'. Good lightning, very strong TK, illusion, very good at hiding herself in the force, and mind-reading.



Yea, Talon got one of the top slots right after coming out of apprenticeship. That rather defines 'prodigy.'

No, even if he's had less opportunity for good feats, she still has more feats.




I am in fact not implying that, there's plenty he could beat. Probably not this one, though.




Oh yes, he's quite skilled, but he's not overloaded with feats himself.



With the force.



No, in the second duel they clashed for a bit then Nihl showed up.

Third, she force-threw him, he did a weird zap-push combination on her, then threatened to shatterpoint her.

In the fourth duel, she stabbed him in the shoulder.

In the fifth duel (sorta duel?), she one-shot KOed him with the force from trying to sneak-zap him.

In the sixth duel, Talon was wounded all over from shrapnel, and in that state Cade one-shotted her.



In the seventh duel she escaped completely unharmed after delivering a present.

In the eighth duel, that was the one with the floor-TK feat.

Also, of note, in all eight encounters? She suffers a single light-saber wound (during the sixth), all the others were force.



Objective. Bigger is a measurement.



Talon's specifically described as fast, agile, and in top physical condition. Talon also performs more acrobatics than, well, most anyone ^^



But at the end of the day, she still has more victories over opponents of skill and ability.

Not saying that Vindican can't beat plenty of foes... just that you're trying to equate 'not being talon' with 'not beating anyone,' which is absurd. A limited track record can excuse having to assume some, but is not an excuse for assuming- Assuming, not shown!- superiority to a track record with good fights against some very impressive foes.

At best, you can say "Vindican may be stronger than we saw," while on the flip side, we can say, "Talon is this strong."

Originally posted by Q99
No, even if he's had less opportunity for good feats, she still has more feats.




I am in fact not implying that, there's plenty he could beat. Probably not this one, though.




Oh yes, he's quite skilled, but he's not overloaded with feats himself.



With the force.



No, in the second duel they clashed for a bit then Nihl showed up.

Third, she force-threw him, he did a weird zap-push combination on her, then threatened to shatterpoint her.

In the fourth duel, she stabbed him in the shoulder.

In the fifth duel (sorta duel?), she one-shot KOed him with the force from trying to sneak-zap him.

In the sixth duel, Talon was wounded all over from shrapnel, and in that state Cade one-shotted her.



In the seventh duel she escaped completely unharmed after delivering a present.

In the eighth duel, that was the one with the floor-TK feat.

Also, of note, in all eight encounters? She suffers a single light-saber wound (during the sixth), all the others were force.



Objective. Bigger is a measurement.



Talon's specifically described as fast, agile, and in top physical condition. Talon also performs more acrobatics than, well, most anyone ^^



But at the end of the day, she still has more victories over opponents of skill and ability.

Not saying that Vindican can't beat plenty of foes... just that you're trying to equate 'not being talon' with 'not beating anyone,' which is absurd. A limited track record can excuse having to assume some, but is not an excuse for assuming- Assuming, not shown!- superiority to a track record with good fights against some very impressive foes.

At best, you can say "Vindican may be stronger than we saw," while on the flip side, we can say, "Talon is this strong."

Take me, My body is ready

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mbc6oeHQO21rra1zyo1_500.gif

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You really need to buy this book to understand why I rate the reconstituted ancient Sith so highly: http://www.amazon.com/Star-Wars-The-Republic-Encyclopedia/dp/0756698391


I have to agree with this. The SWTOR Encyclopedia is an amazing book and I highly recommend it.

Why would we buy that book when LeGenD's has memorized and pirated much of it for us by spamming every quote with the slightest bit of praise involved?

And while I've read some bits of it before, none of it suggests that the Ancient Sith were any better than the Sith of later eras in technology or ability. And even if it did, this debate is about two individuals, not organizations.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
And even if it did, this debate is about two individuals, not organizations.

Indeed.

If you have one order with an average of X, and another with an average of X+1, then an individual higher on the bell curve of X, let's say +5.2, will still beat not only average people on the X+1 curve, but people +4 above that average. So someone can be a significant stand-out on an average-stronger order, and still lose to someone of the second order.


Now, I don't think the TOR Empire had X+1 to begin with compared to other orders known for collecting lots of force knowledge, I think it simply has a larger bell and thus more people on the far ends of the bell (i.e. I think they're both X average, but with more people, the TOR has more +4s and +5s).

Originally posted by chilled monkey
I have to agree with this. The SWTOR Encyclopedia is an amazing book and I highly recommend it.
Thank you

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Why would we buy that book when LeGenD's has memorized and pirated much of it for us by spamming every quote with the slightest bit of praise involved?

And while I've read some bits of it before, none of it suggests that the Ancient Sith were any better than the Sith of later eras in technology or ability. And even if it did, this debate is about two individuals, not organizations.
This book contains so much information that it is not possible for me to reveal much of the material in writing. I only reveal some bits that I feel are important to be highlighted in debates.

This book presents a single cohesive picture of the ground realities of the lore and it must be read fully to properly grasp these ground realities. Reading some bits of it will do you no good.

Ground realities of reconstituted ancient Sith Empire are noticeably different from that of Legacy era Sith Empire by the way.

Nonetheless, buy this book if you are interested in ancient era lore. Highly recommended.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

This book contains so much information that it is not possible for me to reveal much of the material in writing. I only reveal some bits that I feel are important to be highlighted in debates.

It was joke about the giant walls of text you constantly post and highlight.

Considering you have no idea what I meant besides I didn't go through studying it as if I had a midterm the next day, you have no idea how much I know of anything. Your catch all phrase of "The ground realities," also usually boils down to you taking things out of context and using hyperbolic wording as fact as opposed to actual feats, so I think I'll take my chances regardless.

The ground reality was pointed out already by Q99, so I won't get into that.

The grounded realities, once again, is the One Sith highly study the knowledge and even culture of prior sith orders and empires, and are trained by Krayt for the purpose of controlling the galaxy and facing the Jedi in direct combat.


Sidious likes to keep his people under-trained, aside from the formal apprentice. The Brotherhood of Darkness didn't have access to the knowledge of many sith orders. The One Sith have neither of these problems, it has access to great force knowledge and uses it because it wants it's people strong enough to do the job.


Heck, shall I also point out that the One Sith pioneered force-based technology, something that's barely been touched on since the Ratakans?


The cultures of the TOR Sith and Legacy are somewhat different, but they do both value strength as a way to advancement, and actually are more similar to each other than a number of other orders. Both have an Emperor who's desires ultimate overrule all other factions, unlike the Old Sith Empire and New Sith Wars, where there were numerous sith lords aside from the top who had a great say in things. Beneath this emperor, there were powerful Sith who would conduct things in said emperor's absence and handle much day to day stuff. Beneath them, there'd be both other powerful lords and commanders who try and advance through success, and lesser sith beneath them who try to gain such ranks. In those matters, they are not too different. It's more acceptable in TOR to kill your boss or rival... but even then, it's limited by the higher ups so as to not disrupt things, and internal rivals for power do exist in the One Sith as well.

Notably, the One Sith also *don't* have the policy of people being ranked highly purely on politics. There's no Vowrawn equivalent, because skill at internal politics would be of little use to Krayt/the order as a whole.

So politically/internal structure, the One Sith, again, value strength, much like the TOR Empire does, even if they do have some differences.

Vindican

Originally posted by Kosmos Supreme
Vindican

What's your reasoning?

I remember this thread, hehe

Talon trashes him. She's at least beaten fodder, he's only lost to it.

Trocity, are you the guy on CV with the avi you're using here?

Nah I don't have a CV account. I just browse the SW threads sometimes.

I own the SWTORE, it's a nice read, but Freshest is right--LeGenD has posted the entirety of the important content during his stay here.

Trocity. Darach is not fodder and vindican was very even with him

Originally posted by WildBantha88
Trocity. Darach is not fodder and vindican was very even with him

Originally posted by Q99
What's your reasoning?
That he was able to go toe-to-toe with Darach for a respectable duration and utterly outclassed a well-trained Jedi Knight?

Yes, Satele Shan was a well-trained Jed Knight as of Return.

Not saying that this confrontation will be easy but it is not a stretch to assume that Vindican can defeat Talon. Darach gained advantaged after acquiring Shan's weapon and had to perform incredible maneuvers to outduel Vindican. Darach's dueling ability is evidently superior to that of Talon.

Darach >> Talon

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
That he was able to go toe-to-toe with Darach for a respectable duration and utterly outclassed a well-trained Jedi Knight?

I know your reasoning, I'm more curious as to the newbie's.


And Talon beat both Sazen and Vao at once on an occasion, which trumps that. She also killed Princess Fel's well-trained master and bodyguard.




Mind you, it's even less of a stretch to assume Talon would, given her better force showings.




Pfft, Talon leaps around and does fancy maneuvers a lot too. That's how she stabbed Cade in the shoulder in one of their fights.

Even late-on she was able to evade Cade in sabers.

And there's still the force edge.

Originally posted by Q99
I know your reasoning, I'm more curious as to the newbie's.
It is not my personal reasoning, it is the reasoning.

Originally posted by Q99
And Talon beat both Sazen and Vao at once on an occasion, which trumps that. She also killed Princess Fel's well-trained master and bodyguard.
Talon's competence is not in question. However, I get the impression from your statements that you somehow don't understand the power and dueling ability required to handle two Sith Lords simultaneously in single combat with one of the Lords being among the best of the Empire.

Originally posted by Q99
Mind you, it's even less of a stretch to assume Talon would, given her better force showings.
Better showings is subjective point here, Q99. I can say that Vindican's feat of tanking a missile is indicative of his power in general and Talon does not have a comparable showing. The feat of shattering a portion of floor is not such a big deal as you are making it out to be.

Give credit where due.

Originally posted by Q99
Pfft, Talon leaps around and does fancy maneuvers a lot too. That's how she stabbed Cade in the shoulder in one of their fights.
So does Vindican; watch the footage again. Vindican can also blast her with lightning when she is performing a maneuver mid-air like he did to Satele Shan when she attempted such a maneuver.

In addition, by incredible maneuvers, I am referring to masterful utilization of multiple blades by Darach to outduel his opponent, a demonstration of martial talent that have no equal in the mythos in visual demonstration so far and rarely duplicated in the lore, if ever.

Point is that it was not easy to outduel Vindican. Considerable effort, skill and full presence of mind was needed to pull this off. Do not underestimate him.

Again, give credit where due.

Originally posted by Q99
Even late-on she was able to evade Cade in sabers.
Yes, she have decent martial skills. One of the reasons why she would pose trouble to Vindican.

Originally posted by Q99
And there's still the force edge.
Talon does not have force edge over Darach and even Vindican.

A similar discussion started recently and all attempts to lowball characters depicted in Return cinematic soundly flopped.: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f86/t596221.html

The lack of knowledge on Darth Talon displayed here is woeful.

Originally posted by AncientPower
The lack of knowledge on Darth Talon displayed here is woeful.
Enlighten me with evidence and I may revisit my assessment. So far nothing concrete. Assertion that she beat Sazen and Vao is not enough, details are needed for evaluation.

Unfortunately, Q99 have history of concealing certain details that may reveal vulnerability of his favorite characters.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Talon's competence is not in question. However, I get the impression from your statements that you somehow don't understand the power and dueling ability required to handle two Sith Lords simultaneously in single combat with one of the Lords being among the best of the Empire.
So your argument is that Vindican would beat Talon because he fought and lost to a Jedi who was able to handle him and another Sith (who you seem to be hyping as a superior opponent) at the same time?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD In addition, by incredible maneuvers, I am referring to masterful utilization of multiple blades by Darach to outduel his opponent, a demonstration of martial talent that have no equal in the mythos in visual demonstration so far and rarely duplicated in the lore, if ever.
Originally posted by Emperordmb
What?!

Originally posted by Emperordmb
So your argument is that Vindican would beat Talon because he fought and lost to a Jedi who was able to handle him and another Sith (who you seem to be hyping as a superior opponent) at the same time?
I am hyping Malgus as being superior? He was already among the greatest warriors of the Empire when he fought Darach.

Also, show me examples of Jedi and Sith who match martial prowess of Darach. No, I don't want names like Yoda and BS. Show me actual examples of technical prowess.

Darth Talon defeated Wolf Sazen and Shado Vao combined, among the best two duelists of the Legacy era, in a display perhaps superior to Darach.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Darth Talon defeated Wolf Sazen and Shado Vao combined, among the best two duelists of the Legacy era, in a display perhaps superior to Darach.
This:

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You do not disclose the entire picture properly:-

- Wolf Sazen had lost an arm before his confrontation with Darth Talon, to Darth Nihl. It is obvious that his effectiveness was impaired by this loss.

He generally fights with one-hand regardless.

He lost that arm more than a decade earlier, and ascended to the rank of master afterward; he was stronger when he fought Talon than he was previously.

lol try again Legend.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
He lost that arm more than a decade earlier, and ascended to the rank of master afterward; he was stronger when he fought Talon than he was previously.
Ok.

Still, loss of an arm would hinder martial prowess.

And he and Vao do not have martial prowess of Darach.

If anything, it would hinder telekinesis, not martial prowess.

They have "impressive lightsaber skills," as demonstrated when they cut down dozens of Sith attackers.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
If anything, it would hinder telekinesis, not martial prowess.

They have "impressive lightsaber skills," as demonstrated when they cut down dozens of Sith attackers.
They would be good duelists but this doesn't means that they are as good as Darach.

With Darach, we have solid on-screen evidence of his abilities and not just praise in literature.