Sentry vs Starbrand

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Stoic
This is the regular old Sentry before Siege vs current Starbrand wielder.


Who wins?

zopzop
Sentry murders him. A competent Sentry has humiliated Terrax, SUPPOSEDLY tussled with Galactus off panel, went toe to toe with WWH, and killed Molecule Man.

Ellis/Hickbrand has done what?

Mr Master
Originally posted by zopzop

and killed a mentally unstable severely weakend Molecule Man.
thumb up big grin

Stoic
Originally posted by zopzop
Sentry murders him. A competent Sentry has humiliated Terrax, SUPPOSEDLY tussled with Galactus off panel, went toe to toe with WWH, and killed Molecule Man.

Ellis/Hickbrand has done what?

Tossed the Hulk into orbit, took Thor's Mjonir hit and said that it tickled. There's a couple of other things that he did, but they've escaped my mind at the moment

zopzop
Originally posted by Mr Master
thumb up big grin
Oh I know MM wasn't anywhere near full power.

But still it was an impressive feat. Keep in mind even before SWI, MM was a monster power wise. He effortlessly curbed Thor/Surfer/Cap/IM. He disintegrated their weapons like they were made of paper and would have killed them if it wasn't for SS's quick thinking. This was a lesser version of MM too since he couldn't affect organic molecules.

The version Sentry beat could affect organic molecules (so he was a step up from the version the Avengers faced) but he was NOWHERE near Owen's true potential.
Originally posted by Stoic
Tossed the Hulk into orbit, took Thor's Mjonir hit and said that it tickled. There's a couple of other things that he did, but they've escaped my mind at the moment
So he BFRed Hulk (who wasn't hurt at all) and took a Mjolnir shot to the chest (something Surfer has done without injury too). That's it? He's got nothing. Sentry breaks him.

carver9
Star brand stomps.

zopzop
Originally posted by carver9
Star brand stomps.
This should be interesting. Explain how with on panel examples please.

leonidas
you know, the sb in the new universe wasn't much differently portrayed when it initially appeared. i think the marvel sb hasn't had experience yet, but i think the power is still mostly there. in a fight i think this would be really close. i could def see sb taking some. depends on how sentry is written. loads of potential here for both.

maxivitopowe
Why does Zop hate SB so much?

Epicurus
Because he's Zop the Flop.

zopzop
Originally posted by leonidas
you know, the sb in the new universe wasn't much differently portrayed when it initially appeared. i think the marvel sb hasn't had experience yet, but i think the power is still mostly there. in a fight i think this would be really close. i could def see sb taking some. depends on how sentry is written. loads of potential here for both.
IMHO, what we see now is what we are gonna get with the Ellis/Hickman Starbrand. It's been a year or so and he's done nothing of consequence with it. He's even had extensive training from Nightmask on how to use and control his power so he's not a 'noob' anymore.

Any stable version of Sentry should get the majority wins off SB. Voidtry would destroy him 10/10.
Originally posted by maxivitopowe
Why does Zop hate SB so much?
I don't. I'm a huge fan of the Starbrand. What we are seeing now isn't the Classic Starbrand but Ellis/Hickman's take on it. It's a damn joke and shadow of it's former self.

Stoic
Originally posted by zopzop
Oh I know MM wasn't anywhere near full power.

But still it was an impressive feat. Keep in mind even before SWI, MM was a monster power wise. He effortlessly curbed Thor/Surfer/Cap/IM. He disintegrated their weapons like they were made of paper and would have killed them if it wasn't for SS's quick thinking. This was a lesser version of MM too since he couldn't affect organic molecules.

The version Sentry beat could affect organic molecules (so he was a step up from the version the Avengers faced) but he was NOWHERE near Owen's true potential.

So he BFRed Hulk (who wasn't hurt at all) and took a Mjolnir shot to the chest (something Surfer has done without injury too). That's it? He's got nothing. Sentry breaks him.

He said that the shot that he took tickled it's quite different than taking a hit that jars the shit out of one guy, and tickles another.

zopzop
Originally posted by Stoic
He said that the shot that he took tickled it's quite different than taking a hit that jars the shit out of one guy, and tickles another.
Surfer took the exact same hit to the chest and was similarly unfazed. It happened during the lead up to the Odin/Galactus showdown in the Mighty Thor.

Thor flung Mjolnir at Surfer. It hit him dead center in his chest and sent him flying back. Surfer got right back up as if nothing happened and was telling Thor to calm down. It was literally the same scenario as with the Starbrand except it involved Thor/Surfer instead of Thor/Starbrand.

Can anyone post the scan? I had it but I don't know where it is now.
EDIT : Here's the scene
http://s10.postimg.org/at7c4qbed/3140873_thorvssilversurfer19mightythor5.jpg http://s10.postimg.org/g5w6iuzat/3140874_thorvssilversurfer20.jpg

DarkSaint85
Sentry wins.

SB would win based on hype, but I haven't seen anything to suggest he can win.

h1a8
Sentry's power fluctuates. If we take Sentry at his best (Terrax Sentry and Genis Sentry) then he wins. Any other Sentry (WWH, etc.) loses.

DarkSaint85
Wow. When losing to WWH is seen as a low showing...

Enzeru
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Wow. When losing to WWH is seen as a low showing...

That's the power of the Sentry, son! B-)

Tony Stark
Originally posted by Mr Master
thumb up big grin





Soooooooo... You're saying that a mentally unstable SENTRY killed a mentally unstable Molecule Man?

Gotcha wink

carver9
Originally posted by zopzop
This should be interesting. Explain how with on panel examples please.

He took on the most powerful team in comics right now and held his own while tanking their attacks. It took Hulk dive bombing him from space to stop him. He dropped Hyperion tanked Thor attacks while defending himself with a powerful blast. Sentry even though he is extremely powerful isn't taking on a team of that caliber...and this happened during the time when he knew 0 about his power. After that he became more fluent with all of his abilities. Sentry will give him a fight but he will lose.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Epicurus
Because he's Zop the Flop. Irony.

zopzop
Originally posted by carver9
He took on the most powerful team in comics right now and held his own while tanking their attacks. It took Hulk dive bombing him from space to stop him. He dropped Hyperion tanked Thor attacks while defending himself with a powerful blast. Sentry even though he is extremely powerful isn't taking on a team of that caliber...and this happened during the time when he knew 0 about his power. After that he became more fluent with all of his abilities. Sentry will give him a fight but he will lose.
You're aware that when characters are first introduced they have a "good" showing then it mostly tappers off. Since then, what's he done? Nothing. The 'noob' excuse don't work anymore. It's been a year and he's had extensive training on the use of his powers by Nightmask.

Even in his initial appearance the Avengers were holding back because he was a kid. Did you notice toward the end, when they got serious, they had him dead to rights and he gave up. In their later confrontation, he even needed Nightmask's help and they STILL lost (he admits this to Nightmask).

carver9
Originally posted by zopzop
You're aware that when characters are first introduced they have a "good" showing then it mostly tappers off. Since then, what's he done? Nothing. The 'noob' excuse don't work anymore. It's been a year and he's had extensive training on the use of his powers by Nightmask.

Even in his initial appearance the Avengers were holding back because he was a kid. Did you notice toward the end, when they got serious, they had him dead to rights and he gave up. In their later confrontation, he even needed Nightmask's help and they STILL lost (he admits this to Nightmask).

He fought the Avengers again and held his own. Can you honestly see Sentry taking on Captain Marvel, Ironman, Hulk, Thor, and Hyperion at the same time and stalemating them? I sure as hell can't.

He gave up because he didn't know how to use his powers.

What else he's done? Hhhhhhmmmm, he ended a war with a blast that didn't even deplete him. A war that threatened the Universe. Yes, the shields was down but it was stated that he was the only being that had the power to do what he did and the entirety of the Shiar was there along with other armies.

So what do we have here. A guy that didn't even know how to use his powers holding his own against one of the most powerful team comics (Thanos had Generals to help him achieve something like this).

Fought the team again and did well and he was still inexperienced. Ended a war that threatened the Universe with just the wave of his hands.

That's all he really need my friend besides it being stated that he is the most powerful being on the Avengers right now. What else would you like for him to do Zop?

One_Angry_Scot
Originally posted by carver9
He fought the Avengers again and held his own. Can you honestly see Sentry taking on Captain Marvel, Ironman, Hulk, Thor, and Hyperion at the same time and stalemating them? I sure as hell can't.

He gave up because he didn't know how to use his powers.

What else he's done? Hhhhhhmmmm, he ended a war with a blast that didn't even deplete him. A war that threatened the Universe. Yes, the shields was down but it was stated that he was the only being that had the power to do what he did and the entirety of the Shiar was there along with other armies.

So what do we have here. A guy that didn't even know how to use his powers holding his own against one of the most powerful team comics (Thanos had Generals to help him achieve something like this).

Fought the team again and did well and he was still inexperienced. Ended a war that threatened the Universe with just the wave of his hands.

That's all he really need my friend besides it being stated that he is the most powerful being on the Avengers right now. What else would you like for him to do Zop?

I bet you could see Hulk stalemating them couldn't you though?

Out of every single feat Sentry has accomplished you still think he couldn't stalemate them.

carver9
Originally posted by One_Angry_Scot
I bet you could see Hulk stalemating them couldn't you though?

Out of every single feat Sentry has accomplished you still think he couldn't stalemate them.

Beating up Thor and holding up the Celestials? Not enough to beat a team of that caliber. Not nearly enough imo.

bbrem123
You do know how easily he disposed of Thor right?

Twice.

What makes him not able to dispose of the other heroes the way he did Thor?

One_Angry_Scot
Originally posted by carver9
Beating up Thor and holding up the Celestials? Not enough to beat a team of that caliber. Not nearly enough imo.

Beating up Thor should be rephrased as ko'ing him in 2 hits (then he was going to kill him). He also ko'd him with heat vision. He when he was stable was stated to have the power to destroy entire worlds when in a fight (Genis-Vell fight), (kind of get sick droning on about this) out-moleculed Molecule Man.

Equalling the power of every hero on Earth to stop Exitar. It almost seems like you're cherry picking feats to bolster your claims.

Not to mention in the fights with Thor he was holding back to subdue him not kill him. As it was his plan not the Apoc twins. Thor wont be no trouble to a no holds barred Sentry so how is "One Above Hulk" going to damage Sentry?

eaebiakuya
Sentry wins. Death Sentry wins.

WWH Sentry loses.

eaebiakuya
Originally posted by carver9
He took on the most powerful team in comics right now and held his own while tanking their attacks. It took Hulk dive bombing him from space to stop him. He dropped Hyperion tanked Thor attacks while defending himself with a powerful blast. Sentry even though he is extremely powerful isn't taking on a team of that caliber...and this happened during the time when he knew 0 about his power. After that he became more fluent with all of his abilities. Sentry will give him a fight but he will lose.

1 - He got beat by this team

2 - The team was holding back at the start of the fight.

3 - Your entire argument is "i think he should be that strong right now, because he was strong in the past"... sounds like DBZ style argument.

Starbrand has no feats to put him in the same class as best showings of Sentry.

LordofBrooklyn
Originally posted by carver9
Can you honestly see Sentry taking on Captain Marvel, Ironman, Hulk, Thor, and Hyperion at the same time and stalemating them? I sure as hell can't.

THIS is why you fail!

Get Carver Prime.

leonidas
anyway, i still think this would be an awesome battle. sb can be a bit of a plot device, like sentry's powers i suppose. pis vs pis? potential for this fight would be uber. i'll still say split for the moment.

carver9
Originally posted by One_Angry_Scot
Beating up Thor should be rephrased as ko'ing him in 2 hits (then he was going to kill him). He also ko'd him with heat vision. He when he was stable was stated to have the power to destroy entire worlds when in a fight (Genis-Vell fight), (kind of get sick droning on about this) out-moleculed Molecule Man.

Equalling the power of every hero on Earth to stop Exitar. It almost seems like you're cherry picking feats to bolster your claims.

Not to mention in the fights with Thor he was holding back to subdue him not kill him. As it was his plan not the Apoc twins. Thor wont be no trouble to a no holds barred Sentry so how is "One Above Hulk" going to damage Sentry?

Thor will have help here. Thor, Wasp, and a worm took out Sentry. Thor will have high end help assisting him in crushing Sentry. Your argument is all over the place. Just because Orion one shot koed Superman with the ASTRO force doesn't mean he can beat the entirety of the JLA. It doesnt work like that. With that said, even though he took down Thor, and did it easily, that's proof that he is in the trans tier but it isn't proof that he could take down the Avengers.

carver9
Originally posted by eaebiakuya
1 - He got beat by this team

2 - The team was holding back at the start of the fight.

3 - Your entire argument is "i think he should be that strong right now, because he was strong in the past"... sounds like DBZ style argument.

Starbrand has no feats to put him in the same class as best showings of Sentry.

He stalemated that team for a bit before losing and he wasn't even familiar with his powers.

Prove that the team was holding back.

Starbrand wins.

One_Angry_Scot
Originally posted by carver9
Thor will have help here. Thor, Wasp, and a worm took out Sentry. Thor will have high end help assisting him in crushing Sentry. Your argument is all over the place. Just because Orion one shot koed Superman with the ASTRO force doesn't mean he can beat the entirety of the JLA. It doesnt work like that. With that said, even though he took down Thor, and did it easily, that's proof that he is in the trans tier but it isn't proof that he could take down the Avengers.

I really hoped we could have a debate without a modicum of stupidity, and you mention the worm. So you know what heres my trump card to you.

Hulk loses to Gorilla therefore Sentry's punch destroys him but you know what I am not that terrible of a debater that I would resort to lowballing. Just be careful again of using examples when they easily backfire.

Sentry has been shown as I repeat to KO Thor with either 2 punches (while holding back) or heat vision he has shattered a planet from fighting (Collective fight) he has displayed the capability to destroy worlds. He has defeated Molecule Man. He has extremely high flight speeds as shown vs Morgana Le Fay and vs Thor. Sorry to burst your bubble but Sentry isn't this weak character that he can't stalemate the Avengers like you say. You call him a trans tier yet he according to you fails to stalemate Avengers. You really need to rethink here.

It's almost as if on this thread an outside force has removed all of Sentry's feats to make you believe he is incapable.

One_Angry_Scot
Originally posted by carver9
Thor will have help here. Thor, Wasp, and a worm took out Sentry. Thor will have high end help assisting him in crushing Sentry. Your argument is all over the place. Just because Orion one shot koed Superman with the ASTRO force doesn't mean he can beat the entirety of the JLA. It doesnt work like that. With that said, even though he took down Thor, and did it easily, that's proof that he is in the trans tier but it isn't proof that he could take down the Avengers.

If I brought up cases where Hulk has been ko'd then base street levellers would be able to dominate him.

carver9
Originally posted by One_Angry_Scot
I really hoped we could have a debate without a modicum of stupidity, and you mention the worm. So you know what heres my trump card to you.

Hulk loses to Gorilla therefore Sentry's punch destroys him but you know what I am not that terrible of a debater that I would resort to lowballing. Just be careful again of using examples when they easily backfire.

Sentry has been shown as I repeat to KO Thor with either 2 punches (while holding back) or heat vision he has shattered a planet from fighting (Collective fight) he has displayed the capability to destroy worlds. He has defeated Molecule Man. He has extremely high flight speeds as shown vs Morgana Le Fay and vs Thor. Sorry to burst your bubble but Sentry isn't this weak character that he can't stalemate the Avengers like you say. You call him a trans tier yet he according to you fails to stalemate Avengers. You really need to rethink here.

It's almost as if on this thread an outside force has removed all of Sentry's feats to make you believe he is incapable.

Hulk didn't lose to that Gorilla. A bite doesn't mean you lost a fight but let's move on.

You naming all of Sentry fts are impressive but I guess you've forgot what the others has done? Like Hulk strength nearly depleting an abstract of its power. Or his punch reversing time. Or Hyperion pushing two universes away from each other and withstand the destruction of two universes . Or Thor busting through Galactus head or damaging Chaos King. Again, Sentry has done well against Thor but that doesn't mean he could stalemate a squad with this kind of power. Taking out Thor doesn't mean you can take out a full team of Thors. Also, Thanos didn't knock Thor out...especially not as easily as Sentry did while holding back ( don't know where you got that from) so is Sentry more powerful than Thanos as well?

One_Angry_Scot
Originally posted by carver9
Hulk didn't lose to that Gorilla. A bite doesn't mean you lost a fight but let's move on.

You naming all of Sentry fts are impressive but I guess you've forgot what the others has done? Like Hulk strength nearly depleting an abstract of its power. Or his punch reversing time. Or Hyperion pushing two universes away from each other and withstand the destruction of two universes . Or Thor busting through Galactus head or damaging Chaos King. Again, Sentry has done well against Thor but that doesn't mean he could stalemate a squad with this kind of power. Taking out Thor doesn't mean you can take out a full team of Thors. Also, Thanos didn't knock Thor out...especially not as easily as Sentry did while holding back ( don't know where you got that from) so is Sentry more powerful than Thanos as well?

Believe me I know them feats, I said in regards to holding back that Sentry wanted to subdue him in the first fight. In the 2nd fight it was the same case it was only when he finally got the tentacles out did he decide to kill Thor, as he said.

"There is justice in it, there is"

I still haven't seen you admit to bringing up a a case of clear PIS. Here is another bit of the logic you used. Thor knocks Hulk out with 1 blast of electric therefore Hulk will always lose to electric based attacks (I have the image but file size is too big, I will post link). I would like to see why you think with Sentry's feats he can't stalemate or defeat the team.

With Sentry being able to perform all of the feats he can. I will even paste the respect thread in for you.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f98/t585162.html

Tell me how he doesn't stalemate or win, without making childish references to PIS one off events.

Here is the link http://imgur.com/UhFkpk9

We can play this game if you want but until you come up with a solid reason then there is no point bringing up feats to disrespect Sentry. That's just bad debating.

One_Angry_Scot
Originally posted by carver9
Hulk didn't lose to that Gorilla. A bite doesn't mean you lost a fight but let's move on.

You naming all of Sentry fts are impressive but I guess you've forgot what the others has done? Like Hulk strength nearly depleting an abstract of its power. Or his punch reversing time. Or Hyperion pushing two universes away from each other and withstand the destruction of two universes . Or Thor busting through Galactus head or damaging Chaos King. Again, Sentry has done well against Thor but that doesn't mean he could stalemate a squad with this kind of power. Taking out Thor doesn't mean you can take out a full team of Thors. Also, Thanos didn't knock Thor out...especially not as easily as Sentry did while holding back ( don't know where you got that from) so is Sentry more powerful than Thanos as well?

Same here, because the guy who withstands the destruction of universes when he gets a punch from the Hulk and Hulk draws blood form him do we say that Savage Hulk's punches are greater than 2 collapsing universes. No we recognise it as PIS.

http://imgur.com/a/6nHAT

"so is Sentry more powerful than Thanos as well?"

You seemed to think so so I wouldn't go chucking that argument around, so now you are disagreeing with yourself.

http://imgur.com/W48KySy

And just in case you say I am lying because I never posted the thread it's on page 2.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=592868&pagenumber=2

carver9
Originally posted by One_Angry_Scot
Believe me I know them feats, I said in regards to holding back that Sentry wanted to subdue him in the first fight. In the 2nd fight it was the same case it was only when he finally got the tentacles out did he decide to kill Thor, as he said.

"There is justice in it, there is"

I still haven't seen you admit to bringing up a a case of clear PIS. Here is another bit of the logic you used. Thor knocks Hulk out with 1 blast of electric therefore Hulk will always lose to electric based attacks (I have the image but file size is too big, I will post link). I would like to see why you think with Sentry's feats he can't stalemate or defeat the team.

With Sentry being able to perform all of the feats he can. I will even paste the respect thread in for you.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f98/t585162.html

Tell me how he doesn't stalemate or win, without making childish references to PIS one off events.

Here is the link http://imgur.com/UhFkpk9

We can play this game if you want but until you come up with a solid reason then there is no point bringing up feats to disrespect Sentry. That's just bad debating.

Ok, why are you still trying (key word, trying) to lowball? Where in my post where you Quoted me did i lowball. First thing, that was a surprise attack Thor hit Hulk with. Iirc, Hulk withstood Thor lightning just fine and kept fighting. Also, Hulk has received a power up since then. Now back to the real discussion here, again, Sentry has shown that he is powerful but nothing has been shown that he can beat a team of this caliber. Taking out Thor doesn't mean he can take out Thor, Hulk, Hyperion, Ironman, and Captain Marvel at the same time. Let alone stalemate them.

carver9
Originally posted by One_Angry_Scot
Same here, because the guy who withstands the destruction of universes when he gets a punch from the Hulk and Hulk draws blood form him do we say that Savage Hulk's punches are greater than 2 collapsing universes. No we recognise it as PIS.

http://imgur.com/a/6nHAT

"so is Sentry more powerful than Thanos as well?"

You seemed to think so so I wouldn't go chucking that argument around, so now you are disagreeing with yourself.

http://imgur.com/W48KySy

And just in case you say I am lying because I never posted the thread it's on page 2.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=592868&pagenumber=2

I know what I think of Thanos and Sentry but I'm asking YOU what do you think of the two. Stop changing the subject.

One_Angry_Scot
Originally posted by carver9
Ok, why are you still trying (key word, trying) to lowball? Where in my post where you Quoted me did i lowball. First thing, that was a surprise attack Thor hit Hulk with. Iirc, Hulk withstood Thor lightning just fine and kept fighting. Also, Hulk has received a power up since then. Now back to the real discussion here, again, Sentry has shown that he is powerful but nothing has been shown that he can beat a team of this caliber. Taking out Thor doesn't mean he can take out Thor, Hulk, Hyperion, Ironman, and Captain Marvel at the same time. Let alone stalemate them.

I will admit I am now becoming fed up with this. It's like talking to a brick wall. Did you or did you not use the example of the worm? If you did you are lowballing, my examples were on the basis of a counterargument. Like I said I am not that bad of a debater to that I would go that low to make my point.

Ah so it's a surprise attack when it hit Hulk, here is my counterargument Sentry was surprised when worm hit him so now you can't use that example (Sentry said Oh so you can't argue) and I wont argue over it being PIS again we have done that to death now. Sounds liek you covering up for Hulks failures again.

And I never said because he took out Thor that he could kill the team. I actually gave evidence via feats why he would win. Please for the 2nd time quit lowballing so we can debate properly.

One_Angry_Scot
Originally posted by carver9
I know what I think of Thanos and Sentry but I'm asking YOU what do you think of the two. Stop changing the subject.

To be honest now we are ruining the thread for other people on this forum so hopefully you listen to reason and stop quick reading my statements and making generalisations. You said can Sentry defeat Thanos now. Implying that he couldn't when you yourself stated that he could. I was putting you right on a false claim you made.

I have stayed on topic on this thread only once you brought up other characters did its stray off topic so again could you kindly stop berating me.

carver9
Originally posted by One_Angry_Scot
I will admit I am now becoming fed up with this. It's like talking to a brick wall. Did you or did you not use the example of the worm? If you did you are lowballing, my examples were on the basis of a counterargument. Like I said I am not that bad of a debater to that I would go that low to make my point.

Ah so it's a surprise attack when it hit Hulk, here is my counterargument Sentry was surprised when worm hit him so now you can't use that example (Sentry said Oh so you can't argue) and I wont argue over it being PIS again we have done that to death now. Sounds liek you covering up for Hulks failures again.

And I never said because he took out Thor that he could kill the team. I actually gave evidence via feats why he would win. Please for the 2nd time quit lowballing so we can debate properly.

I brought up the worm one time and it offended you to the point that you brought it into 4 of your posts. I don't care about the worm scene. I brought it up once, you made your point and I left it alone but it seems like my words are just stuck in that brain of yours. Move past that. I simply said, Sentry even though he's powerful has not shown me anything that makes me think he could take out this team. Now look back through our posts and see who is doing the lowballing. Lowballer.

What evidence did you give?

carver9
Originally posted by One_Angry_Scot
To be honest now we are ruining the thread for other people on this forum so hopefully you listen to reason and stop quick reading my statements and making generalisations. You said can Sentry defeat Thanos now. Implying that he couldn't when you yourself stated that he could. I was putting you right on a false claim you made.

I have stayed on topic on this thread only once you brought up other characters did its stray off topic so again could you kindly stop berating me.

We can get back on topic but one question, when did I say Sentry couldn't defeat Thanos? Are you putting words in my mouth, friend? I think the worm comment has drove you crazy.

One_Angry_Scot
Originally posted by carver9
I brought up the worm one time and it offended you to the point that you brought it into 4 of your posts. I don't care about the worm scene. I brought it up once, you made your point and I left it alone but it seems like my words are just stuck in that brain of yours. Move past that. I simply said, Sentry even though he's powerful has not shown me anything that makes me think he could take out this team. Now look back through our posts and see who is doing the lowballing. Lowballer.

What evidence did you give?

You brought up the worm and Wasp as a reason for why Sentry wouldn't be able to win. I mentioned it every time because for your argument it is a key premise otherwise you have no poor feats to pick from to back up your claims.

Before I engage your last point, I will show cases of you lowballing.

"Beating up Thor and holding up the Celestials? Not enough to beat a team of that caliber. Not nearly enough imo."

You don't mention what holding the celestial meant. It meant he equalled the power of every hero on Earth. Including Hulk and Hyperion.

"Thor will have help here. Thor, Wasp, and a worm took out Sentry."

Need I explain this? Or shall I bring up a case where Hulk is beaten by an inferior being and use that?

"so is Sentry more powerful than Thanos as well?"

Just thought I would include this for the extra hypocrisy.

"I know what I think of Thanos and Sentry but I'm asking YOU what do you think of the two. Stop changing the subject."

As soon as I call you out you change the subject by accusing me of something.

One_Angry_Scot
Originally posted by carver9
We can get back on topic but one question, when did I say Sentry couldn't defeat Thanos? Are you putting words in my mouth, friend? I think the worm comment has drove you crazy.

Again I never said that you said Sentry couldn't defeat Thanos you said this.

http://imgur.com/NJUakxY

Which by the wording implies that Sentry would struggle to defeat him, note I never accused you of saying he couldn't defeat him. Like you accused me of. You have brought up the topic of me lying about a Sentry vs Thanos in a thread titled Sentry vs Starbrand.

And don't worry as much as you can be rude and insult me I will assure you I wont get schizophrenia from your worm comment. It may irritate me because it is a pile of pants but I wont go bonkers over it.

carver9
Originally posted by One_Angry_Scot
You brought up the worm and Wasp as a reason for why Sentry wouldn't be able to win. I mentioned it every time because for your argument it is a key premise otherwise you have no poor feats to pick from to back up your claims.

Before I engage your last point, I will show cases of you lowballing.

"Beating up Thor and holding up the Celestials? Not enough to beat a team of that caliber. Not nearly enough imo."

You don't mention what holding the celestial meant. It meant he equalled the power of every hero on Earth. Including Hulk and Hyperion.

"Thor will have help here. Thor, Wasp, and a worm took out Sentry."

Need I explain this? Or shall I bring up a case where Hulk is beaten by an inferior being and use that?

"so is Sentry more powerful than Thanos as well?"

Just thought I would include this for the extra hypocrisy.

"I know what I think of Thanos and Sentry but I'm asking YOU what do you think of the two. Stop changing the subject."

As soon as I call you out you change the subject by accusing me of something.

Out of everything you've said, the ONLY thing you can accuse of lowballing is the worm ft. Me bringing up Sentry holding up a part of Exitar as not being enough to beat this team isn't lowballing, crazy. It isn't enough (we don't even know how much he held up. Remember, Rogue was holding it off by herself before he came into the picture so he was probably just holding up the left overs...who knows).

Lol...me asking you about Thanos and Sentry isn't lowballing. Yeah, you're hurt about my worm comment. It's going to be ok.

Again, why are you bringing up Hulk and an inferior being? Lol, is the worm comment still on your mind? If we are going to keep talking about Sentry and a worm (that I brought up during My FIRST POST), then we need to stop the debating right here and now. If you bring up that worm one more time, I'm done with this. You can win.

Like I've stated, Sentry hasn't done enough to warrant be could stalemate this team. Hyperion tanking Universal attacks along with having one of the best strength fts in existence doesn't mean he can beat this team either.

Again, me thinking this doesn't mean I am lowballing either Sentry or Hyperion. Taking out a single Herald isn't enough. I see you keep avoiding my question though.

Board Walker
Originally posted by carver9
We can get back on topic but one question, when did I say Sentry couldn't defeat Thanos? Are you putting words in my mouth, friend? I think the worm comment has drove you crazy.

This comment made me laugh, it truly made me laugh out loud.

"I think the worm comment has drove you crayz"

One_Angry_Scot
Originally posted by carver9
Out of everything you've said, the ONLY thing you can accuse of lowballing is the worm ft. Me bringing up Sentry holding up a part of Exitar as not being enough to beat this team isn't lowballing, crazy. It isn't enough (we don't even know how much he held up. Remember, Rogue was holding it off by herself before he came into the picture so he was probably just holding up the left overs...who knows).

Lol...me asking you about Thanos and Sentry isn't lowballing. Yeah, you're hurt about my worm comment. It's going to be ok.

Again, why are you bringing up Hulk and an inferior being? Lol, is the worm comment still on your mind? If we are going to keep talking about Sentry and a worm (that I brought up during My FIRST POST), then we need to stop the debating right here and now. If you bring up that worm one more time, I'm done with this. You can win.

Like I've stated, Sentry hasn't done enough to warrant be could stalemate this team. Hyperion tanking Universal attacks along with having one of the best strength fts in existence doesn't mean he can beat this team either.

Again, me thinking this doesn't mean I am lowballing either Sentry or Hyperion. Taking out a single Herald isn't enough. I see you keep avoiding my question though.

Look carver just because I questioned part of your argument and you don't like it is no need to throw a hissy fit and say you're done. Rogue wasn't holding it up by herself, she said herself that it wasn't enough. That's why Stark said the celestial is still descending. Lets leave that now as that is straying way from the debate.

On you talking about him holding up the celestial here is my point. Rogue absorbed the power of every hero on Earth. And it wasn't enough and when Sentry came along he managed to stop it combined with Rogue. So he either equalled the heroes power or exceeded it. If he didn't equal the power of every hero then Exitar would've sunk like the Titanic into the Earths crust. You can't argue that (hopefully we agree on this one point here).

For the 3rd part of your comment,

You said this.

http://imgur.com/NJUakxY

Which contradicts what you said (whether you said it by accident or not I can't say) as I am not carver9.

The next part we have already done to death and you wont admit to lowballing so I will just let anybody else viewing this to decide (I hope you at least agree with that)

The next part we again contradict, I believe Sentry has done enough to show he can win against this team or at least do more than stalemate. The problem with your Hyperion point is that he hasn't had over 10 years of high end feats Sentry has had tremendous high feats. So going on feats current Hyperion couldn't take on that team, he has not enough feats to back it up.

Finally you say defeating one Herald (if you are speaking of Thor) he is a High Herald, Sentry has also defeated Ultron (here I will openly admit I am not sure whether it was secondary or primary adamantium), he has stalemated WWH (we should definitely leave this for another thread as that debate will go on), he has out-moleculed molecule man, also remember his Genis-Vell feat when it was stated he was still holding back . I could go on and on and on but if I did this whole board would be covered in writing.

If you want to leave this thread by all means do so. I am trying to debate you, every time you have accused me of changing the subject when I answer your question or on one occasion you have insulted me. Up to you now, everyone on KMC can see this thread and they will make their mind up who is correct.

carver9
Originally posted by One_Angry_Scot
Look carver just because I questioned part of your argument and you don't like it is no need to throw a hissy fit and say you're done. Rogue wasn't holding it up by herself, she said herself that it wasn't enough. That's why Stark said the celestial is still descending. Lets leave that now as that is straying way from the debate.

On you talking about him holding up the celestial here is my point. Rogue absorbed the power of every hero on Earth. And it wasn't enough and when Sentry came along he managed to stop it combined with Rogue. So he either equalled the heroes power or exceeded it. If he didn't equal the power of every hero then Exitar would've sunk like the Titanic into the Earths crust. You can't argue that (hopefully we agree on this one point here).

For the 3rd part of your comment,

You said this.

http://imgur.com/NJUakxY

Which contradicts what you said (whether you said it by accident or not I can't say) as I am not carver9.

The next part we have already done to death and you wont admit to lowballing so I will just let anybody else viewing this to decide (I hope you at least agree with that)

The next part we again contradict, I believe Sentry has done enough to show he can win against this team or at least do more than stalemate. The problem with your Hyperion point is that he hasn't had over 10 years of high end feats Sentry has had tremendous high feats. So going on feats current Hyperion couldn't take on that team, he has not enough feats to back it up.

Finally you say defeating one Herald (if you are speaking of Thor) he is a High Herald, Sentry has also defeated Ultron (here I will openly admit I am not sure whether it was secondary or primary adamantium), he has stalemated WWH (we should definitely leave this for another thread as that debate will go on), he has out-moleculed molecule man, also remember his Genis-Vell feat when it was stated he was still holding back . I could go on and on and on but if I did this whole board would be covered in writing.

If you want to leave this thread by all means do so. I am trying to debate you, every time you have accused me of changing the subject when I answer your question or on one occasion you have insulted me. Up to you now, everyone on KMC can see this thread and they will make their mind up who is correct.

No hiss fits being thrown here. If I didn't bring up the Sentry and worm scene after your comment, wouldn't you consider that a concession (in regards to the worm) if I didn't even take the time to defend myself on the topic? I gave up on it because I understood what you were saying.

Rogue stopped him temporarily though. If she never showed up, the Earth would have died but she couldn't completely stop him which is where Sentry showed up and lifted up the extra weight.

Uuuuuummm...with that scan you posted, I'm clearly asking you who do you think is more powerful out of Sentry and Thanos but you have as of yet to answer that question. I wonder why? Hhhhmmmm.

I know of Sentry fts, almost better than anyone here and I never said he was weak but I also don't think he can beat a team of this caliber either based off their fts.

The only reason i said i was possibly not going to reply to you is if you kept going on and on and on about a topic i was no longer discussing.

One_Angry_Scot
Originally posted by carver9
No hiss fits being thrown here. If I didn't bring up the Sentry and worm scene after your comment, wouldn't you consider that a concession (in regards to the worm) if I didn't even take the time to defend myself on the topic? I gave up on it because I understood what you were saying.

Rogue stopped him temporarily though. If she never showed up, the Earth would have died but she couldn't completely stop him which is where Sentry showed up and lifted up the extra weight.

Uuuuuummm...with that scan you posted, I'm clearly asking you who do you think is more powerful out of Sentry and Thanos but you have as of yet to answer that question. I wonder why? Hhhhmmmm.

I know of Sentry fts, almost better than anyone here and I never said he was weak but I also don't think he can beat a team of this caliber either based off their fts.

The only reason i said i was possibly not going to reply to you is if you kept going on and on and on about a topic i was no longer discussing.


Okay then with regards to the worm I will take that concession from you (no harm done lets leave that)

Oh sure she did "stop" him the more correct way to put it would be slowed him down which did in turn allow Robert to arrive. I can offer an explanation as to say that Rogue and Tony never knew about the Sentry arriving originally so that's why they acted like that was the end. On the premise of that I will agree there.

4th point, I think we can both agree to leave that now (we can PM eachother if we want to debate that point any longer)

Damborgson
Oh it's Death Sentry? I feel like he'd traumatized Starbrand.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by carver9
Hulk didn't lose to that Gorilla. A bite doesn't mean you lost a fight but let's move on.

You naming all of Sentry fts are impressive but I guess you've forgot what the others has done? Like Hulk strength nearly depleting an abstract of its power. Or his punch reversing time. Or Hyperion pushing two universes away from each other and withstand the destruction of two universes . Or Thor busting through Galactus head or damaging Chaos King. Again, Sentry has done well against Thor but that doesn't mean he could stalemate a squad with this kind of power. Taking out Thor doesn't mean you can take out a full team of Thors. Also, Thanos didn't knock Thor out...especially not as easily as Sentry did while holding back ( don't know where you got that from) so is Sentry more powerful than Thanos as well?

Lol. So when they faced Starbrand, they were using that level of power, aye? Hulk with his abstract power, Hyperion with his universe level strength, Thor with his Galactus/Chaos King power?

Because you better compare apples and apples, lol.

Enzeru
Before I give my humble opinion on the fight, I would like to state that it's absolutely hilarious how One_Angry_Scot is destroying carver9 in their "debate". I put debate in quotation marks, because it's not really a debate, but rather a stomp.

And regarding the fight:

Starbrand faced the Avengers, including Thor, Hyperion and Hulk. From what I saw in the fight the Avengers were holding back at the beginning and gave Starbrand the chance to yield, but they still got into a fight. When the Avengers got serious about it Starbrand was at the receiving end.

When it comes to Death Seed Sentry we have a guy, who trashed Thor without even trying. He did it twice and he could do it a third time. He has outperformed the combined powers of all heroes by actually stopping Exitar.
Carver made the argument that we don't know how much Sentry was actually lifting and that Rogue maybe did the most lifting with Hulk's strength (who would have expected that), but if you actually read the comic you would see that nothing really implies that Rogue did well. She went for it and the heroes stated that it was still not enough and that Exitar was approaching Earth.
Then Sentry came along and lifted Exitar with Iron Man making the comment that with whoever Wasp got in stopped Exitar. So more context leans towards Sentry doing the bigger amount of lifting.

It's obvious that Death Seed Sentry is performing at higher levels than any High Herald in Marvel with Thor argueably being one of the Highest Herald, if not the Highest Herald (in my opinion).

TL-DR: With the Sentry one-shotting Thor with a molecular blast, while still holding back and two-shotting Thor afterwards, I don't see how the Avengers would stand a chance against him.
It literally took him two punches to take Thor out. Sentry has the clear speed advantage over everyone on the Avengers roster. Thor would be knocked out before Hulk and Hyperion could interfere. Then they would have one powerhouse less and I think that we can all agree that the other Avengers wouldn't do much better.

It's like an adult fighting children. It doesn't matter if he faces one child or three of them. The amount of damage he can dish out overwhelms them anyway. Sorry for the harsh comparison, but it's the way it is.

And with all of that being said... While I think that Death Seed Sentry would beat the current Starbrand, it's not because Sentry has been portrayed as super powerful, but rather because Starbrand has been downgraded.
In theory Starbrand should win, because we know that his power source is beyond Sentry's capabilities, when it comes to feats and the classic Starbrand would therefore win the fight. This version however would lose.

dial J for Josh
Enzeru finally! I was waiting for you to comment in this thread. I agree with what you said. Although I am confused because I thought this fight was with regular sentry, but after reading some previous post I see this thread has transitioned to Deathry vs Starbrand.

Stoic
Originally posted by Stoic
This is the regular old Sentry before Siege vs current Starbrand wielder.


Who wins?

zopzop
Originally posted by dial J for Josh
..... I thought this fight was with regular sentry, but after reading some previous post I see this thread has transitioned to Deathry vs Starbrand.
It doesn't matter.

Any "non wuss" version of Sentry should get the majority vs Starbrand. The Void influenced ones would outright stomp. Death Seed Sentry should stomp also.

Mr Master
Originally posted by Tony Stark

You're saying that a mentally unstable SENTRY killed a mentally unstable Molecule Man?
Well first, he didn't kill Owen. He bfr'd him.

I did forget to mention that aside from Owen being partially insane,
which is nothing in power next to mentally stable Owen.

... Mentally stable controls space-time-matter on a multiversal level,
Un-stable controls molecules on a local level. (about a town)

Owen also wanted to sub-consciously lose on top of that hinderance.

eaebiakuya
Originally posted by Mr Master
Well first, he didn't kill Owen. He bfr'd him.


What ?

MM is alive ?

bbrem123
That version of MM could still destroy high herald level heroes in an instant.

So him being Multiversal doesn't really mean much here.

Enzeru
Originally posted by Mr Master
... Mentally stable controls space-time-matter on a multiversal level,
Un-stable controls molecules on a local level. (about a town)

Owen also wanted to sub-consciously lose on top of that hinderance.

That's so hilarious, man. I went in-depth to debunk all that nonsense of yours and you're still at it big grin Okay, I will do it again.

Your argument is basically the following nonsense in disguise:

"Well, Molecule Man affected molecule matter on a +universal scale and since he lost to Sentry there is no way in hell he could have been that powerful anymore! Therefore he was depowered and could only affect a city and wanted to lose on top of that."

THAT IS YOUR ARGUMENT! And here are my arguments why what you're saying is utter bullshit:

1. Molecule Man's power level was not limited to a city-scale. The reason why he was operating inside the city was because he grew up in that city and went back to it, to live there in peace. He was only affecting intruders to protect his home.

2. Molecule Man was making direct hints at his actual power level from the past by asking Daken how he was able to fight past his molecule manipulation. He then realized that he was only able to do that, because he is the son of Wolverine and Wolverine's healing factor somewhat protected him from the molecule manipulation in the past.
Molecule Man still turned Daken into a tree and the Adamantium inside Bullseyes body into liquid. (Note that he was affecting organic matter, something older versions of the Molecule Man were not able to do due to mental issues.)

3. If we for some reason translate your so called city-scaled limitation of Molecule Man's power into regular power, would that mean that heralds like the Sentry (at least herald) can be killed by city-scaled explosions? Because that's what Molecule Man did to the Sentry. He blew him up into many, many pieces. No one with power on a city-wide scale does that to a herald level being at least. No one.

Molecule Man was perfectly fine.

Molecule Man lost, because he wasn't able to deal with Sentry's power. He was yelling at him, asking him how he was doing that to him. Molecule Man was in pain and was forced to revert everything back to normal. Then he got BFR'ed / killed / turned into a werewolf / whatever by the Sentry.
He lost that encounter straight up. Nothing implied that he wanted to get destroyed other than his self-created mirror images telling him that he wants to be found and killed, which he was denying it and saying that he only protects his home.

Everything has been explained in the comic. What you're doing is not only ignoring the dialogue of the characters in the comic, but also making own assumptions and all of that, because you think that Sentry beating Molecule Man is PIS.

It's not PIS... Spider-Man beating Firelord is PIS, because it happens only for the sake of the plot and without Spider-Man ever backing it up later on. The only reason it's there is to let the plot roll and in such cases the plot rolls over corpses.
When it comes to the Sentry however, the Molecule Man instance didn't really serve much more purpose than to show how insanely powerful the Sentry really is. A character, who has been called godlike and omnipotent multiple times prior to that. character that has been hyped up for years, finally lived up to his hype and in the end of the day it ended up being plot development for that character to establish him as the final boss of the Dark Reign / Siege saga.

the Darkone
Originally posted by bbrem123
That version of MM could still destroy high herald level heroes in an instant.

So him being Multiversal doesn't really mean much here.

Yes it does. Mr Master is basically saying if MM was in the right frame of mind and didn't want to lose he would've F Sentry up something nasty and that's a fact; as where DA MM was mid trans at best as where normal MM is above Elder Gods and Sky Fathers in power, and the real MM or Evil MM would have scatter Sentry atoms across the multiverse with a thought.

h1a8
Terrax Sentry, MM Sentry, or Genis Sentry wins.
Any other Sentry loses.

bbrem123
Originally posted by the Darkone
Yes it does. Mr Master is basically saying if MM was in the right frame of mind and didn't want to lose he would've F Sentry up something nasty and that's a fact; as where DA MM was mid trans at best as where normal MM is above Elder Gods and Sky Fathers in power, and the real MM or Evil MM would have scatter Sentry atoms across the multiverse with a thought.

the MM shown in DA was able to destroy high heralds with ease.

Sentry beat MM at his own game. Like it or not. I could give a sh*t. thumb up

Mr Master
Originally posted by the Darkone

Yes it does. Mr Master is basically saying if MM was in the right frame of mind and didn't want to lose he would've F Sentry up something nasty and that's a fact; as where DA MM was mid trans at best as where normal MM is above Elder Gods and Sky Fathers in power, and the real MM or Evil MM would have scatter Sentry atoms across the multiverse with a thought.
thumb up
Originally posted by bbrem123

the MM shown in DA was able to destroy high heralds with ease.
Big freakin deal. He dispersed his molecules.

Whoopee. It just happens to be what he controls: uhh, Molecules.

Grant it, Owen needed to be at close range, but meh.
Originally posted by bbrem123

Sentry beat MM at his own game.
Dark Reign Owen had several stipulations working against him:

1) Owen severely de-powered himself, cause he wasn't even a global power, he was only able to control the molecules around him. (localized)

2) Owen was mentally unstable (depressed-insecure-delusional)

3) Owen subconsciously wanted to lose. (masochist-like)

Now, take away those plot hinderances and Owen curbstomps Sentry or Void or combined every time.

Enzeru
Oh Mr. Master...

The plot disagrees with you.
The dialogue disagrees with you.
And even the writer of that arc Brian Michael Bendis disagrees with you (he said that Molecule Man wasn't depowered, when someone asked me on one of these Tumblr-like sites).

But yeah, have fun repeating your made up nonsense, you liar.

Stoic
Originally posted by Mr Master
thumb up

Big freakin deal. He dispersed his molecules.

Whoopee. It just happens to be what he controls: uhh, Molecules.

Grant it, Owen needed to be at close range, but meh.

Dark Reign Owen had several stipulations working against him:

1) Owen severely de-powered himself, cause he wasn't even a global power, he was only able to control the molecules around him. (localized)

2) Owen was mentally unstable (depressed-insecure-delusional)

3) Owen subconsciously wanted to lose. (masochist-like)

Now, take away those plot hinderances and Owen curbstomps Sentry or Void or combined every time.

I recall how Owen was during the Secret Wars series, and i agree with you that he has mental issues much like Sentry, but perhaps not as severe. Can you prove that he was unstable? Are there any citations that would lead you to believe that he was? It seems A OK for one guy to be unable to operate at peak due to mental hindrances without so much as a writers citation, but when it seems to be said of another you're called names. I'd be interested to see what you can dig up on Owen's Siege performance, because I was pretty shocked at the outcome myself.

bbrem123
Originally posted by bbrem123
the MM shown in DA was able to destroy high heralds with ease.

zopzop
Originally posted by Enzeru
Oh Mr. Master...

The plot disagrees with you.
The dialogue disagrees with you.
And even the writer of that arc Brian Michael Bendis disagrees with you (he said that Molecule Man wasn't depowered, when someone asked me on one of these Tumblr-like sites).

But yeah, have fun repeating your made up nonsense, you liar.
He's not lying.

MM has gone through a sh|tton of incarnations during his 30+ years as a character.

Originally, he couldn't affect organic molecules, or warp space/time and he thought he needed his "wand" to focus his powers.

Then he "died" and recreated his body. He still couldn't affect organic molecules or warp space/time but he found he didn't need his wand at all (this was the version that stomped Thor/Surfer/IM/Cap America).

Then during Secret Wars I/II, Beyondoom unlocked his true potential and he became a powerhouse. He found out he COULD affect organic molecules as well as warp space/time. This version had massive multiversal level feats.

Then Beyonder and Owen merged to become a Cube and Owen was ejected the instant before the Cube became Kosmos. Owen was sent to Earth powerless. It turns out he hid a SLIVER of his power inside Marsha before he merged with Beyonder to form Kosmos. He reclaims that power and states that he's right back to his old power levels : can't affect organic molecules, can't warp space/time. This is the version that lost to Klaw and Aaron the Rogue Watcher.

Then later still, Owen breaks his mental blocks and become Molecule Man unleashed and rips Beyonder from Kosmos and challenges him to a fight. They operate on TRANS MULTIVERSAL levels and wreck havoc across the omniverse. The fight ends with Owen winning but taking pity on Kubik/Kosmos and allows Beyonder to live. Owen powers down and promises never to behave like that again.

His next (and last) appearance is vs Sentry and the Avengers. This is where he appears to be suffering from mental issues (again) and it's obvious because he's having entire conversations with figments of his imagination. This is the version that Sentry beat. The powered down version of MM. Still an impressive feat for Sentry but MM was nowhere NEAR his peak because of his mental issues.

All of this is tangential anyway. That version of Sentry would annihilate Starbrand.

bbrem123
and why does this mental instability not fly when it comes to Sentry?

Mr Master
Originally posted by Stoic

Can you prove that he was unstable? Are there any citations that would lead you to believe that he was? It seems A OK for one guy to be unable to operate at peak due to mental hindrances without so much as a writers citation, but when it seems to be said of another you're called names. I'd be interested to see what you can dig up on Owen's Siege performance, because I was pretty shocked at the outcome myself.
You know me brother Stoic.

There was a thread that addresses this very discussion.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=586506&pagenumber=8 (the war starts here)

The general consensus was already that Sentry defeated the severely weakened & stipulated Owen,
but posters like Operator616, Galan, Myself and others truly drilled it down with overwhelming On Panel proof.

I think that troll was there too, ... tried to insult Galan got owned lovely for it.

eaebiakuya
Enzeru, usually i agree with your posts. But are you defending here that Sentry has more raw power than a universal + being ?

Do you think Sentry can beat a group of Skyfathers with ease ?

DarkSaint85
I think Enzeru's point (and others, myself included) is that the current Starbrand hasn't actually shown that he's universal+ level yet, or capable of defeating a group of Skyfathers with ease. That's all.

Based on hype? Sure. Feats? Ermm....

bbrem123
yea i dont get where all this universal/multiversal talk is coming from.

eaebiakuya
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I think Enzeru's point (and others, myself included) is that the current Starbrand hasn't actually shown that he's universal+ level yet, or capable of defeating a group of Skyfathers with ease. That's all.

Based on hype? Sure. Feats? Ermm....

I agree with that. I dont think this Starbrand is universal or even skyfather level. I think Sentry wins.

My question is because Enzeru says the MM that Sentry beat was not depowered or not with full capacity, that is equal to a universal being at least.

Enzeru
Originally posted by Stoic
I'd be interested to see what you can dig up on Owen's Siege performance, because I was pretty shocked at the outcome myself.

He has already done it. He has posted his assumptions on the events in that, even though the comics themselves

Originally posted by Mr Master
1) Owen severely de-powered himself, cause he wasn't even a global power, he was only able to control the molecules around him. (localized)

That's his first assumption and he ignores the fact that Molecule Man has stated multiple times in the comics that he only wanted to be left alone in his home city and was defending it against the intruders, which entered it.

Molecule Man's power was not limited to that small city. He was using his power only to protect it.

Originally posted by Mr Master
2) Owen was mentally unstable (depressed-insecure-delusional)

Molecule Man was a mentally unstable character throughout his entire career. Even before he got his infinite power he was a insecure, shy and fearful.

Originally posted by Mr Master
3) Owen subconsciously wanted to lose. (masochist-like)

This is the most pesky statement.

Molecule Man created illusions of few powerful Marvel characters around him. They were talking all kind of weird stuff to him. Like for example one illusion told him that what Victoria Hand was telling him made sense, while another illusion told him that she was lying and that he should kill her.
One illusion said that Molecule Man only wanted to be left alone, while one illusion said that he wants to be found and lose the fight.

AND THEN YOU HAVE SOMEONE LIKE MR. MASTER SEEING THAT ONE STATEMENT OF AN ILLUSION, WHICH IS BASICALLY ONLY MOLECULE MAN'S MIND PLAYING TRICKS ON HIM ...
... and then picking that one statement. All the other stuff the illusions said and Molecule Man denied or refused to follow become totally unimportant for someone like Mr. Master and that one statement, that says that he wants to lose becomes everything! Even though Molecule Man himself denied that over and over and over again.

Come on guys, I can't be the only one, who sees the total madness that is being discussed here!

Molecule Man didn't want to die in that fight. He was fighting until his last breath. He simply got overpowered.
Now if Molecule Man kept on screaming "Kill me, Kill me, I want to die", the way Robert Reynolds did it in the end of the Siege on Asgard, we would have a discussion here, but Molecule Man straight up lost.

Originally posted by bbrem123
and why does this mental instability not fly when it comes to Sentry?

Because it has been established that the Sentry's power level depends on his mental state. That was stated in his bio's and was visible throughout his career.

When it comes to Molecule Man he was never visibly affected by mental instability and Bendis also confirmed that Molecule Man was not depowered (don't ask for a screenshot of this - I've been looking for it, but can't find it anymore).

However, there was something, which I will tackle down below.

Originally posted by zopzop
This is where he appears to be suffering from mental issues (again) and it's obvious because he's having entire conversations with figments of his imagination. This is the version that Sentry beat. The powered down version of MM. Still an impressive feat for Sentry but MM was nowhere NEAR his peak because of his mental issues.

I know all of that what you've written, but you're making one mistake. You're confusing mental blocks for mental issues.
Molecule Man got his mental blocks removed, which unleashed his abilities. The same happened for Superman. With Superman having mental blocks in the past, you wouldn't say that he had mental issues.

When it comes to Molecule Man there was only one instance where mental instability played a role and that happened off-panel... Do you know what else happened off-panel? Sentry stalemating Galactus.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/102593/2920995-namw_2005__weak_when_empowered.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/102593/2920995-namw_2005__weak_when_empowered.jpg

That's that off-panel showing. Molecule Man got imprisoned, because he was unstable and his power level decreased. But after he broke out, no one knew about his current power levels and goals. The next time we saw him he was in his hometown, wanted to be left alone and attacked the intruders.

More in the follow-up:

Originally posted by eaebiakuya
Enzeru, usually i agree with your posts. But are you defending here that Sentry has more raw power than a universal + being ?

No one in his right mindset should even come up with the idea to make arguments for Sentry being as powerful as post-retcon Molecule Man at his best, who was affecting multiple dimensions and timelines. Whoever says that, deserves a slap in the face.

But with that being said, no one in his right mindset should reduce that version of the Molecule Man to a city-wide scale, because he has proven to be more capable. Such arguments are straight up false claims and the people, who come up with them also deserve a slap in the face, simply because Molecule Man himself only focused on that city. He didn't want to draw any attention outside of it. The comic itself shows it.
On top of that he destroyed a +high herald (Sentry) multiple times, someone with a city-sized anything can't do.

The argument in the entire story is that the Sentry overpowered a still very capable Molecule Man, who had enough control over matter to rip +high heralds in pieces and that feat is being used to establish Sentry's molecule manipulation as hold-dat-worthy.

Originally posted by eaebiakuya
Do you think Sentry can beat a group of Skyfathers with ease ?

No, of course not.
I've stated multiple times that Sentry gets owned by any Skyfather by default.

I've also stated multiple times that Sentry gets owned by powerful reality warpers, because his track record against reality warping is very bad (HoM Scarlet Witch, Absorbing Man with reality warping powers, Norn stones).

I've also stated that Sentry might lose in a fight against Blue Marvel, who has Anti-Matter as his power source and even a stable Sentry thinks that Anti-Matter is weakening him and draining his powers.

I've also stated that Sentry might lose to Superman, if he goes into his default mode and uses solar radiation to attack Superman (which would sun-dip Superman) instead of straight up molcule manipulation.

I can continue with people that can beat the Sentry. I don't give a **** if Sentry loses a fight, or wins it. I'm just here to explain the lore of the character and what was showcased throughout his career.

However, at the same time I truly believe that a stable Sentry / Void Sentry / Death Seed Sentry are on a High Trans Level and don't struggle with any high heralds or even Trans Level characters like Thanos and co and I would argue in such battles to defend them. For example I think that Sentry has the versatility and also a massive speed advantage, which would grant him the victory in a fight against Thanos.

But then you get a bunch of super-aggressive fanboys of characters like Thanos, Hulk and so on, who refuse to even take such a possibility into consideration and I end up being the bad guy.
I, who focuses more on context of everything than anyone else on this board, or actually any board for that matter.

You get people like Mr. Master, who straight up come up with stupid shit and stick to it Carver-style for so long, until I simply lose interest and stop arguing, because I feel my brain cells dying off one by one, when engaging in such discussions.

/RANT OVER!

zopzop
Originally posted by Enzeru

The argument in the entire story is that the Sentry overpowered a still very capable Molecule Man, who had enough control over matter to rip +high heralds in pieces and that feat is being used to establish Sentry's molecule manipulation as hold-dat-worthy.
No one is denying this. The MM Sentry beat was MORE powerful than the version that owned Thor/Surfer/IM/Captain America (since that version couldn't even affect organic molecules but the Dark Avengers MM could). Sentry beat a Trans level being.

Enzeru
Originally posted by zopzop
No one is denying this. The MM Sentry beat was MORE powerful than the version that owned Thor/Surfer/IM/Captain America (since that version couldn't even affect organic molecules but the Dark Avengers MM could). Sentry beat a Trans level being.

The way I like to look at feats is by looking at the best... for example - the best one of Sentry's opponents could do and how Sentry did compared to that:

Doctor Doom's force fields... They absorbed the attacks of Hulk and Thor in the past, as well the punch of an empowered Captain Britain, which sent Doom flying across the limbo or something like that.
Doctor Doom's fields protected him from Silver Surfer's attacks, Galactus physical attack and even Thanos, who attacked with the power of the Infinity Gauntlet...

And what Sentry did was to walk twice through these shields. One time they were at their full capacity and Sentry breached them like they were nothing. The other time they didn't have much power left, but prior to that Sentry physically fought through the Crimson Bands of Cytorrak.

Judging by what he has done to Doctor Doom's force fields and what they were capable of protecting Doom against, one could say that even these two showings were unbelievable PIS for the Sentry, but it happened.
They way I view all of that is by not lowballing Doctor Doom, but by taking all of his great showings into consideration.

The same applies for Molecule Man.
Some people try to lowball the living **** out of the entire scenario, while I look at what he has done. And what he did was to rip the Sentry apart. Did it happen on a molecular level? The first two times it did and even though Molecule Man's powers are based on molecule manipulation alone ... the third time Molecule Man did it we saw the Sentry literally getting ripped apart.

Sentry, who had great durability feats as well like dealing with WW Hulk's damage output, being in the centre of planet busting attacks in his fights against Collective and Photon, engaging the Void in physical battles and more.

And Molecule Man went through all that durability, density, invulnerability... whatever. And ripped him apart. If he can do it to the Sentry, he can do it to Thor as well and Thor won't recover from that.
Sentry recovered from that and overwhelmed Molecule Man with sheer power. Not finesse, but power. He out-moleculed someone, who had enough control over molecules to pass the durability of +high heralds.

zopzop
Originally posted by Enzeru
And Molecule Man went through all that durability, density, invulnerability... whatever. And ripped him apart. If he can do it to the Sentry, he can do it to Thor as well and Thor won't recover from that.
Sentry recovered from that and overwhelmed Molecule Man with sheer power. Not finesse, but power. He out-moleculed someone, who had enough control over molecules to pass the durability of +high heralds.
Again, I'm agreeing with you. The MM that Sentry beat was MORE powerful than the one that annihilated Thor/Surfer/Iron Man/Captain America.
http://s13.postimg.org/bns03kcr7/2584718_a215_weaponsdestroyed.jpg
That version of MM that Sentry beat would wipe the floor with Thor or any other high herald.

Mr Master
Originally posted by Enzeru

Oh Mr. Master...

have fun repeating your made up nonsense,

you liar.
Originally posted by Enzeru

MR. MASTER blah, bah, blah ... I just want his schlong

someone like Mr. Master

You get people like Mr. Master, who straight up come up with stupid shit
ka-dur ... and reported!

h1a8
Originally posted by Enzeru
The way I like to look at feats is by looking at the best... for example - the best one of Sentry's opponents could do and how Sentry did compared to that:

Doctor Doom's force fields... They absorbed the attacks of Hulk and Thor in the past, as well the punch of an empowered Captain Britain, which sent Doom flying across the limbo or something like that.
Doctor Doom's fields protected him from Silver Surfer's attacks, Galactus physical attack and even Thanos, who attacked with the power of the Infinity Gauntlet...

And what Sentry did was to walk twice through these shields. One time they were at their full capacity and Sentry breached them like they were nothing. The other time they didn't have much power left, but prior to that Sentry physically fought through the Crimson Bands of Cytorrak.

Judging by what he has done to Doctor Doom's force fields and what they were capable of protecting Doom against, one could say that even these two showings were unbelievable PIS for the Sentry, but it happened.
They way I view all of that is by not lowballing Doctor Doom, but by taking all of his great showings into consideration.

The same applies for Molecule Man.
Some people try to lowball the living **** out of the entire scenario, while I look at what he has done. And what he did was to rip the Sentry apart. Did it happen on a molecular level? The first two times it did and even though Molecule Man's powers are based on molecule manipulation alone ... the third time Molecule Man did it we saw the Sentry literally getting ripped apart.

Sentry, who had great durability feats as well like dealing with WW Hulk's damage output, being in the centre of planet busting attacks in his fights against Collective and Photon, engaging the Void in physical battles and more.

And Molecule Man went through all that durability, density, invulnerability... whatever. And ripped him apart. If he can do it to the Sentry, he can do it to Thor as well and Thor won't recover from that.
Sentry recovered from that and overwhelmed Molecule Man with sheer power. Not finesse, but power. He out-moleculed someone, who had enough control over molecules to pass the durability of +high heralds.
That's what I was saying a long time ago. Even if we suggest that MM was depowered he still was able to seperate a high herald level being (or trans level being) with utmost ease. This single handedly proves that MM was at the very least a high Trans. Sentry overpowered him. Thus Sentry had more power than him.
Sentry created a werewolf for crying out loud. This speaks the writer's intention that Sentry has the potential to be basically God and can do anything. Even Bendis the writer CONFIRMED that MM wasn't depowered. So writer's intentions>>>>>>>other people making stuff up.

the Darkone
DA MM was mid trans at best and his powers were limited in a local area, his purposely de-powered hell he was in the raft and it was stated then in the New Avnegers arc. Normal level MM would rape Sentry all day and everyday of the week twice on Sundays, it's been stated on panel MM has de-powered himself. Sentry defeat a mid tran level beings which is good but look in context he never fought MM at his normal levels or his highest which is Evil MM who would have blinked Sentry out of existence.

Badabing
Cripes...facepalm

I'm not even going to give people a heads up before I ninja ban people for trolling and bashing. So let's just agree that it all stops now.

Branlor Swift
Originally posted by Enzeru
However, at the same time I truly believe that a stable Sentry / Void Sentry / Death Seed Sentry are on a High Trans Level and don't struggle with any high heralds or even Trans Level characters like Thanos and co and I would argue in such battles to defend them. For example I think that Sentry has the versatility and also a massive speed advantage, which would grant him the victory in a fight against Thanos. Originally posted by Enzeru
Doctor Doom's force fields... They absorbed the attacks of Hulk and Thor in the past, as well the punch of an empowered Captain Britain, which sent Doom flying across the limbo or something like that.
Doctor Doom's fields protected him from Silver Surfer's attacks, Galactus physical attack and even Thanos, who attacked with the power of the Infinity Gauntlet...

And what Sentry did was to walk twice through these shields. One time they were at their full capacity and Sentry breached them like they were nothing. The other time they didn't have much power left, but prior to that Sentry physically fought through the Crimson Bands of Cytorrak.

Originally posted by Enzeru
But then you get a bunch of super-aggressive fanboys of characters like Thanos, Hulk and so on, who refuse to even take such a possibility into consideration and I end up being the bad guy.

Yup, the super aggressive fanboys of Thanos and Hulk are the issue here. How dare they exist in a thread about Sentry vs the Starbrand.

bbrem123
So yea...Sentry wins

Enzeru
Edit

carver9
Going with Starbrand on this one.

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