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Who wins? who dies?

Team

Thanaton's force spells are good support, Fisto is faster and a better duelist than Bane.

Lolz

Thanaton will likely use Kit Fisto as shark bait to distract Bane and eliminate him.

He wouldn't need to. Bane doesn't have the skill to take out Thanaton without difficulty, with Fisto Bane is outgunned and outclassed.

Originally posted by carthage
He wouldn't need to. Bane doesn't have the skill to take out Thanaton without difficulty, with Fisto Bane is outgunned and outclassed.

Neither does Fisto to be honest, he was obviously drawing on his anger to fight Grievous so that's not much of a feat. :/
He fought ventress but that whole thing was very circumstantial.
And he got speedblitzed by Sids which was just more of a feat for palpatine then anything tbh. And well Thanaton yeah he's a boss but he needed a nexus and a ritual to do most of his feats. So without most of these things they're really no match for even POD Bane thats not me bragging thats a fact

Bane obviously.

He still beat him and Grievous has defeated multiple Jedi at once, stalemated Mace Windu, beaten Ki Adi Mundi, beaten Shaak Ti, and fought evenly with Anakin and Obi wan. Bane has defeated no one without an amp or orbalisks, Fisto is a demonstrably superior duelist.




Bane has no speed feats or reaction feats to suggest he wouldn't get blitzed



POD Bane relied on a nexus for all of his feats, Thanaton is more skilled and has a superior knowledge of the force than a trainee. Not sure why you'd bring up Thanaton's relying on a nexus, when Bane drew on the nexus of Lehon and Korriban for all of his feats

Originally posted by Nalaniel
Bane obviously.

Originally posted by Nalaniel
Bane obviously.

Originally posted by carthage
He still beat him and Grievous has defeated multiple Jedi at once, stalemated Mace Windu, beaten Ki Adi Mundi, beaten Shaak Ti, and fought evenly with Anakin and Obi wan. Bane has defeated no one without an amp or orbalisks, Fisto is a demonstrably superior duelist.
#1. they were all exhausted from having fought the droids .

#2. So...Kit Fisto > Mace? LMAO

#3. Same as #1 and if you're referring to her when she arrived to rescue the Chancellor then it's still the same as #1 she was exhausted.

#4. Lol he ran away at the end didnt he?



Well aside from becoming a blur and the rain thing yeah sure whatever - which is more impressive than anything Kit has done....neither does fisto..except for lasting two seconds longer than Kolar and Tiin.




He had the same speed feats on both planets - despite Lehon being stronger in the Dark Side and even IF he was drawing on the nexus. he's still more impressive than Fisto and Thanaton. But that's common sense you need only look at the response from the other users to see my point. Accept it, no shame in it.

Grievous never even fought Anakin LMAO.

And Grievous was not at his peak by that point, nor was he in the best condition.

Grievous runs away from most of his duels with Obi-Wan. You'll have to be specific.

Originally posted by Emperordmb


Just like he did against those mercenaries lol

Oh I see... quote me instead of the original statement. This is starting to feel a little personal.

Bane cannot win this he has no dueling feats to suggest he can. His force feats in DOE dont suggest a victory in that area either

Yes, your opinions have been noted, carthage.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Grievous never even fought Anakin LMAO.

And Grievous was not at his peak by that point, nor was he in the best condition.

The entire purpose of Fisto's style was to fight multiple opponents, he mastered it better than any before him but it still wasn't a dueling form, and had its disadvantages.

The fact it's designed to cope with 4 lightsabers being thrown at you is likely why he beat Grevious, it wouldn't be the same with Bane.

Supremely powerful>Sith'ari. http://r26.imgfast.net/users/2613/36/14/96/smiles/2710164634.png

Bane does not has the hype factor that Thanaton have.

Grievous by order of feats and duels is still superior to Bane or Zannah. Bane again has never defeated anyone by merit of his own skill, he's only beaten a featless trainee and fought evenly with his apprentice. Also Mace's skill is withstanding he is the 2nd most powerful Jedi, but there is no reason to believe he is above Fisto by a significant margin. Mace was unable to defeat Maul, unable to defeat Vastor, and struggled with Bulq.



Fisto has fought faster than Obi wan could perceive:


-The Cestus Deception

He's also moved his saber fast enough to form a web of light, outrun blaster bolts. and has been described as a blazing blue cyclone. All of these are speed feats that put him beyond Bane deflecting slow moving rain drops, also Bane moved in a blur on a nexus. Fisto's movements as well as Ventress's were described as blurs as well.




Bane was older, weaker, and slower has no speed feats to compare without the orbalisks. He is also less skilled in martial arts, and his force feats don't compare to Fisto in DOE. Fisto has thrown a massive canister, redirected missiles, and pushed back droids. Bane in DOE grinded the organs of guards, lol. Bane has no force feats to compare.

Thanaton alone has moved his saber fast enough to form a shield, he is Bane's level of speed and has superior force abilities. Bane would never last in a duel against Ventress, Grievous, or any of the individuals Thanaton has faced.

Originally posted by carthage
Fisto is faster and a better duelist than Bane.

Originally posted by Selenial
The entire purpose of Fisto's style was to fight multiple opponents, he mastered it better than any before him but it still wasn't a dueling form, and had its disadvantages.

The fact it's designed to cope with 4 lightsabers being thrown at you is likely why he beat Grevious, it wouldn't be the same with Bane.

Bane struggled to defeat his apprentice in spite of a physical advantage, superior raw ability in the force, and he could've just as easily drawn on Ambria's nexus to win. And Zannah likewise is a terrible duelist. He would get smashed by Fisto, adding Thanaton for support and Bane is done for.

Originally posted by Sinious


Again who has Bane beaten without orbalisks, a nexus, by virtue of his own skill. Emperor, Neph, and others have never posted any feats aside from when he beat Sirrak (who he lost to). Still waiting for an answer. I also provided speed feats for Fisto, Bane has nothing to compare to. Fighting faster than trained force sensitives perceive > blocking and dodging rain drops

You're ignoring all his feats cause they were on nexus. You assume too much about the effects of nexus energies. Stop pretending to know exactly how much effect the nexus has on Bane.

Originally posted by Sinious
You're ignoring all his feats cause they were on nexus. You assume too much about the effects of nexus energies. Stop pretending to know exactly how much effect the nexus has on Bane.

The potency if his feats is affected by a nexus. Off Lehon POD Bane broke boxes and tents, and on Lehon he brought down a pillar. Off nexus Bane was barely fast enough to deflect rain drops, on Korriban he ran in a blur. He was plainly boosted by it whether you care go acknowledge it or not. These are not 'assumptions' Bane has simply never replicated any of his higher end feats because the nexus/amp boosted their potency. Fisto's feats are all superior to unamped Bane

Originally posted by carthage
The potency if his feats is affected by a nexus. Off Lehon POD Bane broke boxes and tents, and on Lehon he brought down a pillar. Off nexus Bane was barely fast enough to deflect rain drops, on Korriban he ran in a blur. He was plainly boosted by it whether you care go acknowledge it or not. These are not 'assumptions' Bane has simply never replicated any of his higher end feats because the nexus/amp boosted their potency. Fisto's feats are all superior to unamped Bane

Im not gonna argue about nexus effects with you for obvious reasons.

I'll tell you this though:

Fisto at his prime couldnt manage to defend himself against Sidious for 3 seconds even though Windu was with him which I guess is a good feat for a jedi council member since Sidious is unbelievably powerful but surely one the most powerful dark lords of the sith would not fall so easily especially with Windu aiding him.

Bane + Windu vs ROTS Sidious in a saber duel would go very different than how Fisto + Windu vs Sidious went.

This comparison itself should clearly prove Bane's superiority to Fisto.

Don't argue with carthage regarding Bane, Sinious. It's a wasted effort.

So I've noticed. I'm just trying to figure out if he actually believes ROTS Sidious could kill Bane in 1 second in a saber fight. It will be both amusing and depressing if this is the case.

Carthage says that Obi-Wan could kill Bane in 1 second in a saber fight. He's just trolling Emperor most likely. Or he's a complete idiot.

Wow, if I knew that, I wouldn't bother.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Don't argue with carthage regarding Bane, Sinious. It's a wasted effort.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Carthage says that Obi-Wan could kill Bane in 1 second in a saber fight. He's just trolling Emperor most likely. Or he's a complete idiot.

I never said Kenobi could defeat Bane in a second, and as usual he Bane cult on this forum either simply lowballs of fails to provide superior feats for Bane. Kenobi by feats should be able to defeat Bane, as Bane unlike any other top tier Sith lacks any force feats to suggest he can kill Kenobi aside from lightning.

Originally posted by Sinious
Im not gonna argue about nexus effects with you for obvious reasons.

I'll tell you this though:

Fisto at his prime couldnt manage to defend himself against Sidious for 3 seconds even though Windu was with him which I guess is a good feat for a jedi council member since Sidious is unbelievably powerful but surely one the most powerful dark lords of the sith would not fall so easily especially with Windu aiding him.

Bane + Windu vs ROTS Sidious in a saber duel would go very different than how Fisto + Windu vs Sidious went.

This comparison itself should clearly prove Bane's superiority to Fisto.

Your opinion isnt an a feat though, Bane bas no feats to suggest he wouldnt be blitzed outright like Kolar. Windu only lasted due to a massive amp he gained from Sidious, something Bane is incapable of and even before vaapad in the ROTS novel they died before Windu realized it. Nothing Bane has ever demonstrated has ever suggested otherwise.

Originally posted by Sinious
So I've noticed. I'm just trying to figure out if he actually believes ROTS Sidious could kill Bane in 1 second in a saber fight. It will be both amusing and depressing if this is the case.

Prove he couldnt Bane is slower than Tiin and Windu, and Sidious couldve blitzed them both.

Bane has some pretty ****ing insane physical feats in regards to speed, strength, agility, and capability as a tank (off nexus). He also has an insanely impressive lightning feat that puts him within the top three sith lightning practitioners of the mythos (off nexus). And Bane's own performance against Kas'im and Lsu demonstrate remarkable skill whether you feel like lowballing him or not. Bane also has some amazing accolades for his power, whether you want him to or not.

You seem to have some perverse obsession with Bane where you bring up him, or any character closely affiliated with him, just to shit on them. It's pointless, it's annoying, and it's done solely for the intention of spiting me.

Banes lightning has only killed non force sensitive fodder, Fisto can absorb it with a saber or Thanaton can deflect it. You havent posted any feats that suggest Bane is faster than Fisto, and you have absolutely failed to post an individual apart from Sirrak that Bane beat by virtue of his skill alone without a nexus or amp. You more or less have no case, Bane loses to this team

Banes lightning didn't merely kill people, it utterly disintegrated them.

I can't recall Fisto beating anyone either btw.

He defeated Kenobi in a duel and Grievous, he lost to Ventress though. Bane's lightning killing fodder wouldnt stop it from being absorbed or deflected.

He beat Kenobi in a sparring duel. Plus AotC Kenobi is ass so who cares. And he didn't beat Grievous.

He held his own and put him on the defensive, nice lowballing at least hes proven he's a superior duelist by virtue of his duels, his accolade of being of the best of he Jedi order, unlike someone who can even beat featless random Jedi without orbalisks or darkside boosts

That doesn't mean he beat him. So good job lying about that. How pitiful.

Outdueling is more or less a victory for him, again youve failed to provide any instance of Bane beating or even holding their own against someone of repute without a nexus or amp. Please Continue to evade the point like you always do

You're pitifully manipulating the usage of feats and I don't think you are sincere when you post this none sense. Even you can't be this stupid. I for some reason gave it another chance but as usual, you have been a disappointment with your trolling. Good job.

Originally posted by carthage
Banes lightning has only killed non force sensitive fodder,
A single one-handed blast with the strength to incinerate a group of four people is the greatest raw destructive feat of lightning on enemies' bodies. (though of course Sidious and Vitiate have parity/superiority with their Vaapadsaber and Nyriss superiority feats/accolades)

Originally posted by carthage
Fisto can absorb it with a saber
When has Fisto ever deflected lightning with a lightsaber? Come to think of it, when has Fisto ever encountered a lightning wielding opponent?

What suggests the edge of Bane's lightning is negligible when Fisto has never been depicted defending against lightning, much less lightning of Bane's caliber before, and when a score on Fisto by Bane's lightning would certainly be deadly?

Likewise, I could make a better argument for Bane being able to deflect/defend against Fisto's lightsaber with his lightning by virtue of his lightning cocoon ability.

Originally posted by carthage
or Thanaton can deflect it.
And what has Thanaton done deflection wise that shows he can deflect lightning of Bane's caliber?

Originally posted by carthage
You havent posted any feats that suggest Bane is faster than Fisto,
The rainstorm feat... which the Darth Bane Trilogy confirms as being more impressive than moving invisibly fast to other force users and striking ten times a second, both of which are already more impressive than Fisto's speed feats. But you are almost certainly going to ignore this feat for some halfassed reason...

Originally posted by carthage
and you have absolutely failed to post an individual apart from Sirrak that Bane beat by virtue of his skill alone.
Stomping Sirak prior to becoming far greater with a lightsaber, outdueling saberstaff Kas'im, and flooring Raskta Lsu by outmaneuvering her with his unpredictability (before he retooled his style to be a lot more unpredictable) are all highly impressive feats... but you are probably going to lowball/ignore all of these feats.

Originally posted by carthage
without a nexus or amp.
Likewise, who has actually managed to hold off or defeat Bane without circumstances giving them an advantage?

Originally posted by carthage
You more or less have no case, Bane loses to this team
You more or less shit on Bane at every turn, make every one in five of your topics about a character in the Darth Bane Trilogy, and frequently insult and belittle Bane and his affiliates, just for the purpose of trolling and spiting me.

Originally posted by carthage
Outdueling is more or less a victory for him, again youve failed to provide any instance of Bane beating or even holding their own against someone of repute without a nexus or amp. Please Continue to evade the point like you always do

He didn't outduel him though. So that's meaningless in establishing his skill. I'm not trying to establish Banes skills, I'm simply pointing out Fisto's weakness in lightsaber ability. So I have no need to provide shit.

Will respond to Emperors post when I get home, its hardly meaningless in establishing his skill. Grievous strikes 20 times a second Fisto beat him back and sent him on the defensive. Grievous alone is a better duelist than Bane, and Thanaton is close if not at Bane's level. Banes got nothing

Originally posted by Sinious
You're pitifully manipulating the usage of feats and I don't think you are sincere when you post this none sense. Even you can't be this stupid. I for some reason gave it another chance but as usual, you have been a disappointment with your trolling. Good job.

You're the worst dude. At least Neph and Emperor can actually make a logical case for Bane, unlike you whose only recourse has been and is routinely blatant Appeals to ignorance. Palpatine is faster than a vast majority of the SW mythos, you have no idea what you are talking about if you assume Bane wouldnt get blitzed.

Originally posted by carthage
Will respond to Emperors post when I get home, its hardly meaningless in establishing his skill. Grievous strikes 20 times a second Fisto beat him back and sent him on the defensive. Grievous alone is a better duelist than Bane, and Thanaton is close if not at Bane's level. Banes got nothing

Grievous can only strike 5 times a second with each lightsaber. Which is fairly meh in the grand scheme of things. Compared to Bane appearing to wield a dozen lightsabers at once, that's rather flaccid. And Fisto didn't even beat him so so what. Plus Fisto was fighting better because of his dead apprentice and this was an early GG. So the feat ultiately means nothing. Bane would crush both of them. At the same time. With Thanaton, idc.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
And what has Thanaton done deflection wise that shows he can deflect lightning of Bane's caliber?
http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20131124100711/villains/images/0/02/StaticBarrierThanaton01.jpg

Something to consider.

The fodder Sith assassins were still able to keep up with Orbalisk bane. Bane never replicated that 12 saber feat, and his speed feats as DOE are far less impressive than when he was in orbalisks. DOE Bane and Thanaton are roughly even in speed, Thanaton was outgunned against Nox, defeated Exal Kressh, and killed a massive beast. Thanaton is more than capable of holding his own against DoE Bane.

They weren't keeping up with him, he blitzed one right off the bat then killed two with a single swing. The only reason they lasted was because Bane let them hit him with their electrostaffs because he didn't know that the orbalisks were somewhat vulnerable to high levels of electricity. After recovering from that Bane engages a single assassin and lands dozens of blows in seconds. The final 4 he straight up blitzes, cutting them to ribbons with only a single one able to attack in return.

DOE Bane is hardly "far less impressive" given that he achieved the rainstorm feat, and moved faster than Zannah could've ever imagined.

Originally posted by carthage
You're the worst dude.

Actually, Im the best.



I've never debated about Bane as I have openly admitted my lack of knowledge about the details of the characters in Bane's era. And in every other debate we had, every time I presented solid arguments based on canon knowledge, you have chosen to ignore and continue ranting on about your usual none sense.

You're the most biased person on this forum and honestly kid, everyday I say you can't sound more stupid than this and every next day, you prove me wrong.




I've never denied Sidious' speed feats. He is insanely fast and thats why he would win in a saber fight against Bane. You however, believe that Bane would be killed in 1 second. This is next level Carthage sh*t.

Originally posted by Nephthys
They weren't keeping up with him, he blitzed one right off the bat then killed two with a single swing. The only reason they lasted was because Bane let them hit him with their electrostaffs because he didn't know that the orbalisks were somewhat vulnerable to high levels of electricity. After recovering from that Bane engages a single assassin and lands dozens of blows in seconds. The final 4 he straight up blitzes, cutting them to ribbons with only a single one able to attack in return.

Its not very relevant as Bane isnt in orbalisks in this fight. But the only reason he oneshot that first one was because he was unaware. Those fodder Sith were still able to keep up with him, so any assertion that orbalisk Bane can blitz any high tier opponent should be outright dismissed in future threads

I gotta say, that isn't really next level. He's kept consistent.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
DOE Bane is hardly "far less impressive" given that he achieved the rainstorm feat, and moved faster than Zannah could've ever imagined.

He took it easy on Zannah in sparring matches, and 'faster than she could imagine' is vague and hardly the same as fighting faster than a force sensitive can perceive. Bane still couldnt outfight Zannah, overpower her, and she has no notable speed feats of her own. Bane is not faster than Thanaton, as for his rain feat all he did was move his saber fast enough to form a shield. Thanaton has replicated this feat, and Fisto has surpassed it as well as replicated it. Bane didnt even block them all he dodged them too

Except by virtue of the rainstorm feat Bane has surpassed moving invisibly fast to other force users.

Lolnope rain is obviously slower than hyperattuned force sensitive senses, which Bane has never fought fast enough to overwhelm and or surpass unlike Fisto, Malgus, Maul, or Windu. Bane also dodged drops that broke through his defense. Bane is at best even with Thanaton in speed

The Darth Bane trilogy would disagree with you.


Darth Bane Trilogy definitely takes precedence over your own opinion BTW.

And? Its still an inferior feat to anything Fisto has done that I listed on he first page. Fisto has dodged blaster bolts, fought faster than Obi wan could perceive, formed a web of light with his saber, and fought in a blur against Ventress. Nothing Bane did in the trilogy while he was unamped comes close in the trilogy. Kindly concede the point

I don't recall Fisto ever moving invisibly fast or striking at ten times a second, much less demonstrated considerable superiority to that.

You telling me to concede a point or that I have no case doesn't make you right.

Originally posted by carthage
Its not very relevant as Bane isnt in orbalisks in this fight. But the only reason he oneshot that first one was because he was unaware. Those fodder Sith were still able to keep up with him, so any assertion that orbalisk Bane can blitz any high tier opponent should be outright dismissed in future threads

Unaware? They ambushed him. It states that Bane simply cut him down before they could react.

Wtf? I just spelt out the whole fight and how they didn't keep up with him. If you're just going to ignore what I write then theres no point wasting my time with you. Not that there was much of a point to begin with and that I'm taking you seriously right now.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Unaware? They ambushed him. It states that Bane simply cut him down before they could react.

Wtf? I just spelt out the whole fight and how they didn't keep up with him. If you're just going to ignore what I write then theres no point wasting my time with you. Not that there was much of a point to begin with and that I'm taking you seriously right now.
The difference between Carthage and the other people who just ignore stuff for their era bias (won't name names but most people know who I'm referring to) is that the other people who just ignore stuff don't do so with the clear intent to piss people off, don't actively phrase things to annoy people, and actually understand the meaning of civility.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
The difference between Carthage and the other people who just ignore stuff for their era bias (won't name names but most people know who I'm referring to) is that the other people who just ignore stuff don't do so with the clear intent to piss people off, don't actively phrase things to annoy people, and actually understand the meaning of civility.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
The difference between Carthage and the other people who just ignore stuff for their era bias (won't name names but most people know who I'm referring to) is that the other people who just ignore stuff don't do so with the clear intent to piss people off, don't actively phrase things to annoy people, and actually understand the meaning of civility.

@Neph Its immaterial talking about orbalisk Bane in this thread. If you want to debate Orbalisk Bane then make a thread about him. For the record Orbalisk Bane would kill this team

Again youve posted nothing for unamped Bane that puts him as faster than Fisto. Bane's perspective based quote about the rain feat is just that his own self confirmation for a feat he deemed impossible at a point in his life. In what way is that superior to Fisto dodging blaster bolts, fighting in a blur with Ventress, or fighting faster than Obi wan could track?

Everything I have provided you with is superior to that.

They're nexus feats and no they aren't. Even if Bane's striking speed was 10 strikes a second, Grievous struck faster than that who Fisto outdueled. Bane off nexus never replicated any feats he performed in POD. Fisto on the other hand reacted without too much difficulty to Grievous, Bane has nothing on Grievous speed either

Originally posted by carthage
They're nexus feats and no they aren't. Even if Bane's striking speed was 10 strikes a second, Grievous struck faster than that who Fisto outdueled. Bane off nexus never replicated any feats he performed in POD. Fisto on the other hand reacted without too much difficulty to Grievous, Bane has nothing on Grievous speed either
The rainstorm feat was not on a nexus, and it has been confirmed by the book to be superior to those other feats by a considerable margin.

Just because Fisto with a style advantage beat a pre-prime Grievous who wasn't in the best physical condition does not mean he can match Bane's speed.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
The rainstorm feat was not on a nexus, and it has been confirmed by the book to be superior to those other feats by a considerable margin.

Just because Fisto with a style advantage beat a pre-prime Grievous who wasn't in the best physical condition does not mean he can match Bane's speed.

Again its another in universe quote from Bane that confirms his own bias, its not a canonically sound statement as its solely Bane's opinion. Unless you believe its superior to Bane in Orbalisks fighting so fast appeared to wield mulltiple sabers, its an inferior feat and is essentially Bane formińg a shield with a saber.

Also Grievous's striking speed is confirmed, he moved fast enough to overwhelm multiple Jedi at once, fought as rapidly as ROTS Kenobi, and outfought Mundi and Shaak ti. Grievous is faster than Bane

Originally posted by carthage
Also Grievous's striking speed is confirmed, he moved fast enough to overwhelm multiple Jedi at once, fought as rapidly as ROTS Kenobi, and outfought Mundi and Shaak ti. Grievous is faster than Bane
I can argue a parity in their striking speed based on Bane's improvement since POD. As far as movement speed goes, Bane is soundly superior by a considerable margin even in POD. And Grievous being faster than Bane if that were so still doesn't prove Fisto to be faster than Bane. Beating Grievous does not prove that Fisto has equal or greater speed to Grievous, and considering that Fisto handled all of those strikes do to a stylistic advantage for countering multiple opponents/weapons, this is something that won't come into play against Bane.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
I can argue a parity in their striking speed based on Bane's improvement since POD. As far as movement speed goes, Bane is soundly superior by a considerable margin even in POD. And Grievous being faster than Bane if that were so still doesn't prove Fisto to be faster than Bane.

Grievous strikes a twenty which Fisto defended wih moderate difficulty. Even if you were to argue (based on a nexus feat), it would still make Bane's striking speed slower than Grievous and easy for Fisto to block. Needless to say Bane never replicated his POD speed of Korriban, Lehon, or without orbalisks. The feats I posted on the first page prove Fisto is faster an youve demonstrated nothing for Bane that compares. Unamped Bane has never fought faster than his opponent could perceive, never reacted to a superior striking speed, and never even come close to replicating what I posted on page 1. If you're done lowballing and not posting feats for Bane, can we move on to how he's supposed to beat a demonstrably faster/superior duelist and Thanaton who is more or less even with him?

Fisto by dueling feats is still superior to Bane regardless of the stylistic advantage Shii Cho afforded him to Grievous. He still outfought Kenobi who was a master of Soresu, so evidently he's had no issues in spite of the styles weakness. Bane has never beaten anyone based on his own skill apart from Sirrak, he's only fought evenly with Zannah. Bane is an inferior duelist

Originally posted by carthage
Grievous strikes a twenty which Fisto defended wih moderate difficulty.
Due to a stylistic advantage, and it was hardly moderate. And rewatching the fight, Grievous never even attacks with a fast paced offensive until after losing one of his arms. This would make Grievous's striking speed in that fight fifteen per second at the very best. And the one time Fisto actually got him down was with the force, not to mention the fact that Fisto was wielding an extra blade that he does not posses here.

Originally posted by carthage
Even if you were to argue (based on a nexus feat), it would still make Bane's striking speed slower than Grievous and easy for Fisto to block.
The rainstorm feat took place off nexus, which is significantly superior (despite all of your lowballing whether you would like it to be or not) to ten strikes a second and moving invisibly fast to other force wielders (who would've had their senses amped by a nexus as per your logic).

The rainstorm feat, even on a nexus, would've been well beyond his capabilities to defend against while using a lightsaber and TK after successfully moving invisibly fast to other force users (who would've had their senses amped by your logic) and striking at ten times a second. Yet in DOE he achieves this feat without TK or a nexus.

Based on this I could very easily argue at least a parity in striking speed between Bane and Grievous.

Originally posted by carthage
The feats I posted on the first page prove Fisto is faster an youve demonstrated nothing for Bane that compares. Unamped Bane has never fought faster than his opponent could perceive, never reacted to a superior striking speed, and never even come close to replicating what I posted on page 1. If you're done lowballing and not posting feats for Bane,
Oh I have provided the speed feats for Bane... you just choose to completely lowball and ignore them.

Originally posted by carthage
can we move on to how he's supposed to beat a demonstrably faster/superior duelist
Except Fisto is not that.

Originally posted by carthage
and Thanaton who is more or less even with him
No... just no.

Originally posted by carthage
Fisto by dueling feats is still superior to Bane regardless of the stylistic advantage Shii Cho afforded him to Grievous.
Except for the fact that that was circumstantial to his fight, as well as the fact that Grievous was not in the best physical condition due to the events earlier, and that Grievous had not reached his peak by this point.

Originally posted by carthage
He still outfought Kenobi who was a master of Soresu, so evidently he's had no issues in spite of the styles weakness.
Kenobi wasn't a master of Soresu at the beginning of the Clone Wars.

Originally posted by carthage
Bane has never beaten anyone based on his own skill apart from Sirrak, he's only fought evenly with Zannah. Bane is an inferior duelist
Sirak himself is pretty impressive as a duelist, and Bane stomped him before improving a lot afterwards. He was also really soundly beating saberstaff Kas'im. You also choose to forget when Bane outmaneuvered the Jedi Weapon Master Raskta Lsu with his unpredictability despite her immense skill and her echani penchant for predicting opponents' moves, and this was before Bane retooled his style to become a lot more unpredictable. Bane also defeated Zannah in the saber portion of their duel. And once again, nobody has matched or beat Bane without some favoring circumstances as well.

Lightning will never come into play, Fisto can absorb it with his sabers and Thanaton can deflect it. Bane's lightning has only disintegrated featless mooks and fodder characters, he's never killed any powerful force sensitives such as Fisto or Thanaton with it.



Kenobi had never encountered a lightning-wielding force sensitive, yet he was able to absorb Dooku's with a saber. Considering Bane's lightning is no different in principle, and has never broke through a powerful force sensitive's aura and killed them- this is no different. Fisto can replicate Kenobi's feat with Dooku. As for his 'lightning cocoon ability', I'd love to see him do that and get exhausted and die easier to the team. This is unlikely seeing as he's going to be fighting two force sensitives, and the time he takes to use that technique Thanaton and Fisto will be kicking his ass




Force deflection is a basic technique, Bane's lightning has never oneshot a force sensitive and disintegrated him only random Drexl riders. Nothing in Bane's lightning makes it unique other than disintegrating non force sensitives

For future points I will defer to Sl for knowledge of Thanaton, as he can better defend him than I can.




Your opinion Kthx





The only person Bane defeated out of those three duelists was Sirrak by merit of his skill. Let me reiterate a single maneuver in a duel when he was amped/protected by armor, is not the same as beating someone by virtue of his skill. Sirrak is likewise featless compared to Kenobi, Ventress, or Grievous- and Kas'im was beating Bane until Bane used the nexus and his superior force abilities to kill him. Raskta also would've killed Bane had it not been for the Orbalisks. Either list individuals who Bane has defeated unamped or concede the point.




Considering Bane's opponents are all either featless, or are massively outweighed due to Bane's orbalisks, relying on a nexus, and the fact their team members are incompetent- this doesn't help your case.



Bane has no feats to suggest he can defeat Fisto in a duel, and no feats to suggest he do anything to Thanaton other than stalemate him.

Your fannon opinions don't count please stop using them as if they matter. Fisto defeated Grievous due to comparable if not superseding skill and his advantage due to his style. This does not negate his ability to fight. Nothing stated in the OP specifies what Fisto is equipped with. Fisto's defeat of Kenobi and Grievous are all better feats than Bane beating featless Jedi

The rainstorm feat took place off nexus, which is significantly superior (despite all of your lowballing whether you would like it to be or not) to ten strikes a second and moving invisibly fast to other force wielders (who would've had their senses amped by a nexus as per your logic).



I never asserted it was on a nexus, its irrelevant as its a plainly inferior feat to anything Fisto has done. It can't be emphasized enough that Bane never deflected every raindrop as shown here:

.

Bane wasn't even fast enough to deflect all of the droplets, he had to dodge them and change forms. This isn't a superior feat at all to Fisto who has dodged blaster bolts, deflected multiple blaster bolts and left afterimages, and has left trails of light. All Bane did was make an arc/shield and he still was slow and couldn't escape the rain, Fisto and Thanaton have both replicated this. Let me get that through your head, Bane wasn't fast enough to catch all the rain drops with his saber and Fisto has blaster bolts.

-The Cestus deception

Fisto is faster by order of feats



Its irrelevant whether or not he was at his peak or not, as Grievous even before his peak is still superior to Bane. Bane has never formed a cyclone with his sabers that overwhelmed seasoned Jedi masters, never struck at 20 times a second, never crushed a Jedi into the ground, and never outfought seasoned Jedi masters with the accolades of Ki Adi Mundi or Ti. All of Bane's opponents are featless.




Your opinion

Originally posted by Emperordmb
The difference between Carthage and the other people who just ignore stuff for their era bias (won't name names but most people know who I'm referring to)

It's okay, Emperor, we all know you're talking about yourself.

Can someone make a new topic so peeps can debate intellectually?

Why don't you make a topic then?

Good question.

Originally posted by carthage
Lightning will never come into play, Fisto can absorb it with his sabers and Thanaton can deflect it. Bane's lightning has only disintegrated featless mooks and fodder characters, he's never killed any powerful force sensitives such as Fisto or Thanaton with it.
Are you seriously trying to label Bane's lightning as unimpressive? What the **** is wrong with you?!!

His lightning already has a demosntrated greater potency than the lightning of those who have already achieved these feats (ie. Nyriss and Dooku), so your entire point here is moot.

Originally posted by carthage
Kenobi had never encountered a lightning-wielding force sensitive, yet he was able to absorb Dooku's with a saber. Considering Bane's lightning is no different in principle, and has never broke through a powerful force sensitive's aura and killed them- this is no different. Fisto can replicate Kenobi's feat with Dooku.
Bane's lightning is superior to Dooku's, and if he actually get's an opening to strike Fisto with it, Fisto is done for.

Originally posted by carthage
As for his 'lightning cocoon ability', I'd love to see him do that and get exhausted and die easier to the team. This is unlikely seeing as he's going to be fighting two force sensitives, and the time he takes to use that technique Thanaton and Fisto will be kicking his ass
Considering that Bane is armed here, he won't need to fall back on that ability enough to exhaust himself on it, if he even needs to fall back on it at all. And it also really doesn't take much time to throw up, considering that he instantly threw it up while Zannah was in mid-strike.

Originally posted by carthage
Force deflection is a basic technique, Bane's lightning has never oneshot a force sensitive and disintegrated him only random Drexl riders. Nothing in Bane's lightning makes it unique other than disintegrating non force sensitives
Which is a feat of demonstrably greater raw power than those who have oneshotted force sensitives, once again such as Nyriss and Dooku.

Originally posted by carthage
For future points I will defer to Sl for knowledge of Thanaton, as he can better defend him than I can.
Who?

Originally posted by carthage
Your opinion Kthx
Confirmed by the text...

Originally posted by carthage
The only person Bane defeated out of those three duelists was Sirrak by merit of his skill.
And saberstaff Kas'im. And Zannah.

Originally posted by carthage
Let me reiterate a single maneuver in a duel when he was amped/protected by armor, is not the same as beating someone by virtue of his skill.
Still a display of his offensive capability in which the orbalisks really didn't play a role.

Originally posted by carthage
Sirrak is likewise featless compared to Kenobi, Ventress, or Grievous-
And Fisto lost to Grievous, Kenobi hadn't really done anything of note or mastered Soresu by this point, and as I already explained this was Grievous prior to his peak who wasn't in the best physical condition and was missing an arm while Fisto had a stylistic advantage.

Not to mention that fact that Bane completely stomped Sirak and improved immensely since then even by the end of POD as per the text.

Originally posted by carthage
and Kas'im was beating Bane until Bane used the nexus and his superior force abilities to kill him.
I was referring to Bane very solidly beating Kas'im before Kas'im switched to Jar'kai.

Originally posted by carthage
Your fannon opinions don't count please stop using them as if they matter. Fisto defeated Grievous due to comparable if not superseding skill and his advantage due to his style. This does not negate his ability to fight.
When Fisto lacks a stylistic advantage against another opponent and when Grievous is not at his peak, yes I can call him out on that.

I find it ironic that you call Bane out for nexuses, even when Lehon has a shown negligible effect on his fighting prowess, yet you completely claim that Fisto's own advantages do not negate his feats.

Originally posted by carthage
Nothing stated in the OP specifies what Fisto is equipped with.
Standard equip for Fisto is one lightsaber. Unless stated otherwise it is foolish to suggest that he'd have anything outside of his regular arsenal.

Originally posted by carthage
Fisto is faster by order of feats
No. You only come to this conclusion by completely lowballing all of Bane's feats. Moving invisibly fast to other force wielders prior to his speed peak is easily more impressive than dodging blasterbolts. Not to mention that Bane has the feat of "instantly" covering ten meters for what it's worth.

Originally posted by carthage
Its irrelevant whether or not he was at his peak or not, as Grievous even before his peak is still superior to Bane. Bane has never struck at 20 times a second
Grievous hadn't been confirmed as reaching those speeds prior to ROTS, and since he was missing an arm in his fight with Fisto, so at the very best he was only landing 15 a second.

Originally posted by carthage
Your opinion
I believe the AOTC novel makes it pretty clear that Soresu was not yet Obi-wan's main form by this point and IIRC the Cestus deception shows that he had not yet mastered Soresu. Though I am deferring to Newguy1 on this one.

E.

I typed a response and then my computer lost connection. Again Bane's lightning has never disintegrated a force sensitive. Nothing suggests it can, as Bane has never hit a force sensitive with it and disintegrated them aside from fodder Drexl riders.

Fisto doesn't need a stylistic advantage against Bane, Bane has never fought against a Shii cho master. He wouldn't know how to respond and he'd still be pressed by Thanaton's force abilities and Fisto's superior speed and dueling ability.



Yet he still utilized it to kill Kas'im lol. Bane isn't aware of Shii cho, and Fisto still is an adept at Ataru and is a superior duelist to Bane in martial ability and by feats.





I've already debunked the rain feat, and Bane only moved 'invisibly fast' on Korriban and never replicated that feat at any point afterward. Bane's speed, power, and strength all weren't enough to defeat Zannah, who is inferior in skill and feats to Fisto



Which is still faster than Kas'im, Bane, or Zannah unamped and off nexus



He utilized Lehon's darkside energies to kill Kas'im hence a nexus feat, and he only fought evenly in DOE against Zannah and lost altogether.



You're right he's going to be outdueled, pressed, and eventually lose.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Who wins? who dies?

You should specify which version of Bane this is by the way.

Originally posted by carthage
I typed a response and then my computer lost connection. Again Bane's lightning has never disintegrated a force sensitive. Nothing suggests it can, as Bane has never hit a force sensitive with it and disintegrated them aside from fodder Drexl riders.
And Bane's lightning still has a greater demonstrated potency than those who have.

Originally posted by carthage
Fisto doesn't need a stylistic advantage against Bane, Bane has never fought against a Shii cho master.
Shii-cho is the basics... that's not exactly gonna catch Bane off guard. Plus Kas'im was also a master of Shii-Cho having confirmed mastery and perfection of all seven forms under his belt. Shii-Cho is also not well specialized for single combat.

Fisto likewise has never fought against a Form V master, and Bane has several elements of his fighting style that make him very unpredictable.

If anything Bane's fighting style would give Fisto more trouble than his would Bane.


Originally posted by carthage
Yet he still utilized it to kill Kas'im lol. Bane isn't aware of Shii cho
No more than Fisto is aware of Djem So or Juyo.

Originally posted by carthage
and Fisto still is an adept at Ataru
proof?

Originally posted by carthage
I've already debunked the rain feat,
Considering that it was beyond Bane's ability, even with him using TK in conjunction with his lightsaber skills, blocking the majority of them with his blade and dodging the "few" that managed to slip by his blade, and the fact that the text says that defending against them was beyond his ability by that point, the feat in DOE still counts as him defending against it. You have debunked nothing.

Originally posted by carthage
and Bane only moved 'invisibly fast' on Korriban and never replicated that feat at any point afterward.
And the witnesses to this feat also had their senses amped by the nexus as per your logic. Not to mention that what Bane pulled off in DOE off nexus was beyond pre-Orbalisk Bane's ability on Nexus so this point is moot.

Originally posted by carthage
Bane's speed, power, and strength all weren't enough to defeat Zannah
He did defeat her in the martial portion of their duel, so this point is moot as well.



Originally posted by carthage
Which is still faster than Kas'im, Bane, or Zannah unamped and off nexus
Considering DOE Bane>Nexus POD Bane this point is once again moot.

Originally posted by carthage
He utilized Lehon's darkside energies to kill Kas'im hence a nexus feat, and he only fought evenly in DOE against Zannah and lost altogether.
I was referring to Kas'im prior to utilizing Jar'kai, and Bane did outduel Zannah in the lightsaber portion of their fight and only barely lost when she drew heavily on the nexus for an unblockable trump card that she would not have had otherwise.

Originally posted by carthage
You're right he's going to be outdueled, pressed, and eventually lose.
I never said or implied this in the contention you were quoting, your statement does not address the contention, nor does your statement here have anything to do with that contention.

That doesn't change the fact that nothing supports your claim that it would damage Fisto if/when he puts up a shield/utilizes a saber when nothing in its properties differentiates it from Dooku other than destructive potency. It can still be absorbed by a saber



Its still a randomized fighting style which coupled with Fisto's superior speed makes it more palatable for a victory than vice versa. The only advantage Bane has over Fisto is strength, and that's marginal at best as his strength meant nothing to Zannah as he could never outduel her based on it





Not unpredictable enough to lose to his apprentice, and never beat anyone by its own merit



Bane's dealing with someone who is faster and more skilled attacks from all sides randomized, and Thanaton who will be pressuring him with force attacks. Bane isn't fast enough to respond to Fisto in a timely fashion, and protect himself from Thanaton's lightning, illusions, or spells.




Who cares if he was utilizing TK, he still had to change forms, dodge bolts that broke through his defense, and he was still not fast enough to evade all of the drops. You've still not provided any off nexus feats other than the rain feat, which as I've demonstrated is clearly inferior to Fisto who fought faster than Obi wan could perceive, dodge blaster bolts, etc. If you keep bringing it up without any superior feats, it will just get annoying.




He didn't break her defense, he lost an arm, and he did this all while not drawing on Ambria's nexus like a retard. Zannah got out of that duel looking better than he did. He lost accept the fact.



You've not demonstrated this sufficiently, but then again its not that big of a leap to believe that.




Bane still could've drawn on the nexus to boost his abilities additionally which he failed to do. Zannah has zero speed feats whereas Bane had at the very least moved his saber fast enough to form a shield, there is no reason why he couldn't used the nexus to supplement his already obvious physical advantages. He didn't and paid the price.

Originally posted by carthage
That doesn't change the fact that nothing supports your claim that it would damage Fisto when nothing in its properties differentiates it from Dooku other than destructive potency. It can still be absorbed by a saber
And if Fisto fails to block it then he's done for. Plus I'm not quite sure how he'd handle a force storm.

Originally posted by carthage
The only advantage Bane has over Fisto is strength, and that's marginal at best as his strength meant nothing to Zannah as he could never outduel her based on it
1. Bane's strength feats definitely exceed Fisto's
2. Zannah tooled her style entirely based on defense and redirection of power blows.
3. Bane did defeat her in the saber portion of their duel.

Originally posted by carthage
Not unpredictable enough to lose to his apprentice, and never beat anyone by its own merit
Bane did beat Zannah in the saber portion of their duel.

And Bane was already unpredictable enough to catch Raskta Lsu off guard, and Raskta Lsu was the Jedi Order's best duelist, she was invigorated with battle meditation, and echani are experts at predicting their opponents moves. This was also prior to Bane making his style a lot more unpredictable.

Bane's style contains the unpredictability of Juyo, unpredictability based on him using the inertia power to alter his momentum, unpredictability based on the unfamiliar angles afforded to him by his curved hilt, and unpredictability in his tactics where he frequently uses tactical misdirection to great effect.

All you have for Fisto's unpredictability is that he knows Shii-Cho.


Originally posted by carthage
Who cares if he was utilizing TK, he still had to change forms, dodge bolts that broke through his defense, and he was still not fast enough to evade all of the drops. You've still not provided any off nexus feats other than the rain feat, which as I've demonstrated is clearly inferior to Fisto who fought faster than Obi wan could perceive, dodge blaster bolts, etc. If you keep bringing it up without any superior feats, it will just get annoying.
Except the rain feat is demonstrably superior to greater feats than Fisto has achieved.

Originally posted by carthage
He didn't break her defense, he lost an arm, and he did this all while not drawing on Ambria's nexus like a retard. Zannah got out of that duel looking better than he did. He lost accept the fact.
Bane beat her in the saber portion of that duel... accept that fact.

It would also be hard to spend the time and effort to draw that heavily on a nexus when there's a bunch of unblockable tendrils flying at you that can disintegrate anything they come into contact with.

Originally posted by carthage
Zannah has zero speed feats whereas Bane had at the very least moved his saber fast enough to form a shield,
Zannah has likewise made a shield out of her saber and moved faster than thought.

Nah. Again there is no evidence it'd oneshot a force sensitive, severely injure yeah, but there is nothing in its properties to suggest it cant be absorbed by a saber like Dooku's. To summarize, it's more powerful than Dooku's, but Bane has never overwhelmed a powerful force sensitive with it and nothing about it suggests it can overwhelm a lightsaber. Lets move on, shall we? As for a force storm, we only have Bane's showing on Korriban in POD, and it did nothing other than dishevel books and shake shelves.




Zannah had let time pass sufficiently to where Bane was older and weaker and even with his superior strength showings, he was still unable to break her defense regardless of whatever personal theories you have on her style.

-DOE

Fisto is faster and as shown in his fight with Grievous (whose stomped a Jedi into the ground and torn durasteel), that strength is no issue with his fighting style. If Zannah can defend against Bane's offense Fisto can. Nothing suggests he defeated her in sabers either, he failed to overwhelm her defense and ultimately lose all out.





Your unsubstantiated opinion, and you still have yet to bring any unamped feats for Bane fighting faster than force sensitives can perceive. Fisto is faster I've demonstrated this, lets move on.



Lol Bane was amped by the orbalisks, and was in no danger at any point in losing to Raskta with his armor and amp from Darzu's fortress. Again this doesn't prove Bane is "unpredictable" it just shows he can use his superior bulk and amp to beat a weak opponent. Without Orbalisks Bane would've got shit on



Again nothing that beats Fisto's defeat of superior opponents



And all you have to support Bane's "unpredictability" is a showing when he was amped, protected by orbalisks, and fighting a physically weaker opponent.



He fought evenly with her all out, lost the duel, and never beat anyone by virtue of his own skill without an amp, without orbalisks, or anything else.





Nah not really Zannah has zero speed feats or anything to show that she is or was faster than Bane. Unamped Bane was still successfully able to dodge all of her attacks while drugged, with a nexus he only lost due to his own incompetence. She was even tired from drawing on Ambria for the tendrils, and yet Bane still lost even with multiple advantages on his side. Pathetic.

Originally posted by carthage
Zannah had let time pass sufficiently to where Bane was older and weaker and even with his superior strength showings, he was still unable to break her defense regardless of whatever personal theories you have on her style.
"Form three allows you to parry incoming attacks with minimal effort," he told her... Had she tried to meet it head-on, the strength of his attack would have driven her own weapon back into her, or knocked the lightsaber from her hand. Instead she clipped his blade with a glancing contact, rerouting it so that it continued its downward arc at an angle, passing harmlessly a few centimeters from her shoulder."- ROT
No that pretty much is her style. Not just "personal theories."

Originally posted by carthage
Nothing suggests he defeated her in sabers either, he failed to overwhelm her defense
Bane was forcing her to give ground the entire time, he broke and cracked several of her ribs, and Zannah resorted to her force powers after admitting that she would not survive another bout in a lightsaber duel with Bane. Bane outdueled her.

Originally posted by carthage
Your unsubstantiated opinion,
Not when the text supports it



Originally posted by carthage
Lol Bane was amped by the orbalisks, and was in no danger at any point in losing to Raskta with his armor and amp from Darzu's fortress. Again this doesn't prove Bane is "unpredictable" it just shows he can use his superior bulk and amp to beat a weak opponent.
Considering that that entire maneuver was based on him outmaneuvering her and tricking her into thinking he was doing something else when he really wasn't, yes that is a feat for his skill and unpredictability.


Originally posted by carthage
Again nothing that beats Fisto's defeat of superior opponents
It demonstrates greater inherent unpredictability in Bane's style.


Originally posted by carthage
And all you have to support Bane's "unpredictability" is a showing when he was amped, protected by orbalisks, and fighting a physically weaker opponent.
He still caught her off guard with unpredictability, and it's still more than Fisto has in regards to his demonstrated unpredictability. Stylistically or in showings, Bane has demonstrated a lot more unpredictability than Fisto has.

Originally posted by carthage
Nah not really Zannah has zero speed feats or anything to show that she is or was faster than Bane. Unamped Bane was still successfully able to dodge all of her attacks while drugged, with a nexus he only lost due to his own incompetence. She was even tired from drawing on Ambria for the tendrils, and yet Bane still lost even with multiple advantages on his side. Pathetic.
Bane was dominating that entire fight up until the tendrils, and considering that Grand Master Luke at one point got felled by less powerful tendrils, there is no shame in falling to tendrils. Especially when the tendrils instantly disintegrate anything they come into contact with and are essentially unblockable. It took everything Zannah had plus heavily drawing on a nexus for an unblockable attack of great destructive potency for her to beat Bane, and even then Bane dominated the entire fight prior to that and even almost beat her there. There is no shame in that defeat.

Originally posted by carthage
@Neph Its immaterial talking about orbalisk Bane in this thread. If you want to debate Orbalisk Bane then make a thread about him. For the record Orbalisk Bane would kill this team

Again youve posted nothing for unamped Bane that puts him as faster than Fisto. Bane's perspective based quote about the rain feat is just that his own self confirmation for a feat he deemed impossible at a point in his life. In what way is that superior to Fisto dodging blaster bolts, fighting in a blur with Ventress, or fighting faster than Obi wan could track?

Orbalisk Bane isn't twice as fast as regular Bane, so that's a pointless distinction. DoE Bane is almost as, equal to or faster than Orbalisk Bane. But still, since the feat I mentioned is twice as fast as anything Fisto has done, and since the Orbalisks don't make nearly that much of a difference Bane is still faster than Fisto.

However, I never intended to argue Bane's speed with you and this will be the last post of mine on the matter. You've proven yourself to be worthless trash in all threads concerning Bane. Theres no point arguing the point with someone so hideously biased and/or willfully ignorant on the matter.

Originally posted by Nephthys


However, I never intended to argue Bane's speed with you and this will be the last post of mine on the matter. You've proven yourself to be worthless trash in all threads concerning Bane. Theres no point arguing the point with someone so hideously biased and/or willfully ignorant on the matter.

Well done, carthage.

Approving of carthage should fill you with shame.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Orbalisk Bane isn't twice as fast as regular Bane, so that's a pointless distinction. DoE Bane is almost as, equal to or faster than Orbalisk Bane. But still, since the feat I mentioned is twice as fast as anything Fisto has done, and since the Orbalisks don't make nearly that much of a difference Bane is still faster than Fisto.

However, I never intended to argue Bane's speed with you and this will be the last post of mine on the matter. You've proven yourself to be worthless trash in all threads concerning Bane. Theres no point arguing the point with someone so hideously biased and/or willfully ignorant on the matter.

No he isn't and again Bane never replicated the speed feats he did in DOE hence why Emperor has had to invoke the rain feat and try to pass it off as "superior", in spite of my constant debunking of it. Bane with Orbalisks fought faster than Zannah could perceive, and fought fast enough to react to battle med-enhanced Jedi- yet you are deliberately ignoring his own admission of his decline in physical ability and the fact that he could barely deflect rain drops

The one who is biased is the one who is trying to pass of Bane's enhanced feats as things he's legitimately capable of, in spite of his admitted physical decline and in spite of his utter failure to replicare those feats.



They were amped feats and your own opinion doesn't make Bane's unamped feats faster than Fisto




If he's twice as fast you and Emperor have failed to prove it, you'd have to believe failing to dodge rain drops and moving your saber fast enough to form a shield is superior to Fisto's feats (Fisto has also moved his saber fast enough to form a shield). Again stop posting your worthless opinion, and post feats for DOE Bane that beats Fisto fighting faster than Obi wan can perceive, dodging blaster bolts, and creating after images, webs of light, and other high speed feats that Bane has never replicated.

And this does what to prove Bane can simultaneously fight Thanaton and Fisto?



Bane failed to overwhelm her in sabers, lost the duel, and ended up losing his life. Fisto is faster and attacks from wider angles than Zannah, invoking the fact he can beat his less skilled apprentice doesn't help you in this thread. Bane's got no other dueling feats to suggest he can defeat two high tiered fighters like Thanaton and Fisto other than fighting evenly with Zannah





The text supports Bane's own confirmation bias and acknowledgement he couldn't do it, not that its a superior feat to anything he did with Orbalisks which it plainly isn't. If you really think failing to dodge rain drops and blocking them is more impressive than dodging blaster bolts, fighting faster than force sensitives can perceive (which Bane did with orbalisks), and generating trails of light then I am done proving you wrong. Again Bane's own opinion and reconfirmation doesn't make it a superior feat. Try again.




While amped and sped up well beyond what he's capable of, simple maneuvers and feints don't prove Bane is more "unpredictable". They simply mean he utilizes them in his fighting, which for Fisto the entire basis for his style. This point is worthless and again Bane was amped by the orbalisks and nexus




So using basic maneuvers and feints that average fighters use in their matches makes Bane s00per unpredictable? Lol ok. Again Bane was amped and in no danger to Raskta at all time during that fight. The fact he was able to grab her and throw her down was simply due to his protection and invulnerability, had he try to do that without orbalisks he would've died. Again another nexus feat that doesn't help your case.



There is shame in that you still haven't refuted my point ever as to why Bane didn't draw on the nexus himself. He also lost in spite of multiple physical advantages, and your example sucks. Kun was a weakened Sith spirit, and Luke was being attacked on a darkside nexus, by a student with a powerful force connection, and Kun's spirit at once. Without a nexus Luke would've decimated Durron and Kun, with a nexus Bane failed to kill his incompetent apprentice. Troll harder

Originally posted by carthage
And this does what to prove Bane can simultaneously fight Thanaton and Fisto?
You completely ignored my point by posting something that doesn't directly relate to it.

Originally posted by carthage
The text supports Bane's own confirmation bias and acknowledgement he couldn't do it, not that its a superior feat to anything he did with Orbalisks which it plainly isn't. If you really think failing to dodge rain drops and blocking them is more impressive than dodging blaster bolts, fighting faster than force sensitives can perceive (which Bane did with orbalisks), and generating trails of light then I am done proving you wrong. Again Bane's own opinion and reconfirmation doesn't make it a superior feat. Try again.
You keep ignoring this point even though it is entirely based on and derived from the text. I'm done arguing with you on this point, you are as blind as an Orkellian cave slug

Originally posted by carthage
While amped and sped up well beyond what he's capable of, simple maneuvers and feints don't prove Bane is more "unpredictable". They simply mean he utilizes them in his fighting, which for Fisto the entire basis for his style. This point is worthless and again Bane was amped by the orbalisks and nexus
Except Bane still managed to catch Lsu off guard with unpredictability when she very very clearly failed to predict his attack, as clearly shown in the text. And Bane further made his style more unpredictable. And it's still more showings for Bane's unpredictability than Fisto's. And if you are really going to argue Fisto is more unpredictably just because he uses Shii-Cho, then I'm done here as well.

Your concession is accepted, and like I said I never actually expected you to:

A. Post unamped feats of people Bane has actually defeated without orbalisks.

B. Provide speed feats that show unamped Bane as faster than Fisto

You really failed miserably in this argument, and instead resorted to calling me "biased" when all I did was refute your points, offer feats for Fisto which you either lowballed or had no comparable feats to Bane, and never acknowledged how Bane would fight two comparable force sensitives.



He was amped and never in any danger of getting outmanuevered by Raskta. So what if he brought her down using a simple grapple technique? Fisto fought from all angles against Grievous and outdueled him, and fought faster than Obi wan could perceive against a droid that was specifically made to kill Jedi as well as in a duel of their own. You have nothing on his feats, go cry with Neph in a corner

I win again

Originally posted by carthage
Your concession is accepted, and like I said I never actually expected you to:

A. Post unamped feats of people Bane has actually defeated without orbalisks.

B. Provide speed feats that show unamped Bane as faster than Fisto

You really failed miserably in this argument, and instead resorted to calling me "biased" when all I did was refute your points, offer feats for Fisto which you either lowballed or had no comparable feats to Bane, and never acknowledged how Bane would fight two comparable force sensitives.

I win again
I provided everything. You just chose to completely ignore it. You saying that you win does not make it so.

I'm done with you. Say hello to my ignore list.

I've successfully outargued you in this thread and beat you in other arguments relating to Banite characters. You putting me on your ignore list is just a sign you can't win arguments with people based on simple showings. Your concession is accepted, again child.

Originally posted by carthage
I've successfully outargued you in this thread and beat you in other arguments relating to Banite characters. You putting me on your ignore list is just a sign you can't win arguments with people based on simple showings. Your concession is accepted, again child.
No you just ignored everything I posted, and denied things confirmed by the text. You have won nothing. The only thing I have lost debating with you is my time.

And it seems you like to waste it...

I responded well even when you veered off with unimportant tangents, utilized nexus feats when I plainly asked for unamped feats, and tried to pass of simple grapples as signs Bane is an "unpredictable duelist" LAWL, as well as essentially try to convince people that dodging and blocking rain drops is more impressive than fighting faster than hyperattuned force sensitives and dodging blaster bolts.

I got a really good laugh out of your defense of the rain feat though

Everything you found ridiculous was derived entirely from the text. You ignoring the text with flat out stubbornness does not mean shit.

What was derived from text was Bane thinking he couldn't perform a feat, that was clearly inferior to Bane's feats with orbalisks lol. Again you're presuming that dodging rain drops and swatting them, is more impressive than Bane appearing to wield 12 lightsabers, Bane matching the speed of an Echani battlemaster (when she faded from his senses), and Bane killing a mook assassin before he could react.

If you honestly think dodging slow moving water droplets is more impressive than those amped feats you're a massive joke.

I was referring to the raindrop feat in comparison to his POD speed feats (which still outstrip Fisto's).

You have failed to demonstrate Bane's POD feats as superior to Fistos (and they're all nexus feats). I've fulfilled my burden of proof by providing feats for an unamped Fisto as superior to DOE Bane, the rest is on you and you've completely and dismally failed to prove anything.

If you want to continue then by all means.

The text confirms Bane's DOE feat as superior to what he was capable of on nexus in POD and early ROT. You choosing to ignore this does not make you right. If anything, flat out denying the text means you failed.

Except that's Bane's own opinion and not substantiated in any way other than his own self-confirmation. You have a horrible knack for trying to pass perspective based quotes as feats, Bane's amped Orbalisk feats are clearly superior to swatting at rain in his backyard no matter how you try to spin it.

Again you're asking rational human beings to believe that failing to dodge water droplets/swatting at them is a superior feat to dodging blaster bolts, fighting faster than hyperattuned force sensitives can perceive, as well as moving fast enough to form blurring trails, webs of light, is superior. The burden of proof is on you, Bane's own self affirmation is not a viable feat.

Originally posted by carthage
No he isn't and again Bane never replicated the speed feats he did in DOE hence why Emperor has had to invoke the rain feat and try to pass it off as "superior", in spite of my constant debunking of it. Bane with Orbalisks fought faster than Zannah could perceive, and fought fast enough to react to battle med-enhanced Jedi- yet you are deliberately ignoring his own admission of his decline in physical ability and the fact that he could barely deflect rain drops

The one who is biased is the one who is trying to pass of Bane's enhanced feats as things he's legitimately capable of, in spite of his admitted physical decline and in spite of his utter failure to replicare those feats.

Well I'd imagine that he never replicated his feats from DoE because he dies at the end of the book. Sorry for the spoilers. I ignore his physical decline because it's by such a tiny amount. He was only "the merest fraction" slower. And at any rate he indicates that he's more than made up for his physical "weakness" with improved experience and force mastery. So it is truly a moot point.

That's nice of you to say.

Considering that in a storm like that there would've been a thousand raindrops flying his way a second, yes that is impressive.

And a Sith Lord admitting something is beyond their limits is a statement that should be taken seriously.

He admitted he was slower, he never replicated his amped feats, and you're only real defense is to say you've made the conscious choice to concede to his admitted physical degredation. Yeah, you're not looking through beer goggles at all.



Again he failed to block all of them, dodged some of them, and this still doesn't make it a superior feat to fighting faster than a hyperattuned force sensitive. All Bane did was form an shield out of his blade to block water droplets that's all. Again Bane's own opinion is not an actual feat.

Originally posted by carthage
He admitted he was slower, he never replicated his amped feats, and you're only real defense is to say you've made the conscious choice to concede to his admitted physical degredation. Yeah, you're not looking through beer goggles at all.

Are you.... incapable of understanding the meaning of the phrase "the merest fraction"? I'll give you a hint, it indicates a miniscule amount of degradation. Bane admitting that he was an insignificant amount slower than he was at an unknown point in time is the height of irrelevancy. When something is irrelevant, it is only logical to ignore it.

Yet you still have not shown any feats that suggest he is faster than Fisto other than your own opinion. He still admitted he was degraded, you still have failed to provide any feats to show he is faster, and your opinion doesn't make him any faster based on his showings.

About Bane's lightning:

Raskta successfully blocked Bane's lightning barrage with use of lightsabers. She benefitted from Battle Meditation of Worror at this point but this development demonstrates that it is possible to contain Bane's lightning with use of lightsabers.

In addition, Worror used some kind of technique to trap Bane within a field of energy that resulted in Bane getting incinerated by his own lightning, Bane's orbalisks didn't help during this situation since they were vulnerable to lightning.

One opponent literally dodged Bane's lightning storm. Impressive.

This being said, Bane's lightning is potent enough to burn/incinerate Force-users, at-least up to a certain level.

^You need to post arguments specifically for Thanaton, I've already proven Bane can't beat Fisto. If you'd be kind enough to post an argument for Thanaton that would be nice of you.

Also thanks for reiterating that nothing about Bane's lightning is unique.

Originally posted by carthage
Yet you still have not shown any feats that suggest he is faster than Fisto other than your own opinion. He still admitted he was degraded, you still have failed to provide any feats to show he is faster, and your opinion doesn't make him any faster based on his showings.

Ok, so what I'm getting here is that you're some sort of moron who doesn't grasp the concept that being weakened doesn't actually mean anything if it is by a tiny amount or is off-set by other factors.

I'm not providing feats for you since you're a hopeless troll and I don't want to waste time being serious with you. So I'm sticking to pointing out some basic facts to you about a few things. I've already told you that I'm not bothering to debate you about 3 times now but since you have the intellect of a sea cucumber it seems I need to repeat myself. Ah well.

Your concession is accepted Neph. Again you always try to pass your opinions as feats, hopelessly ignore the requisite proofs you're supposed to bring to prove he's faster than Fisto, also you blatantly lied and said Orbalisk Bane's feats are representative of Bane's true speed in spite of his amp.

I win

Uh-huh. I'm pleased that you're so happy for yourself. Since you've completely failed to rebut my actual point though, your claims of victory come off as rather limp. Bane in DoE is, at the worst, the merest fraction slower than he was in RoT. And since you've already conceded that RoT Bane's speed is well above Fisto's that means DoE Bane is as well.

Until you cease putting your fingers in your ears and throwing a temper tantrum like a little baby, I believe I'll stop wasting my time with you. You were an amusing diversion, at least. So thanks for the chuckles.

I'm not throwing a temper tantrum, again the onus of proof is on you as I've done all I can to post Fisto's feats in which you have absolutely nothing you've posted to prove Bane is faster than



Lolnope. I said ROT Bane's speed feats were faster than DOE Bane was amped in ROT and moved faster than simply deflecting raindrops and failing to catch most of them.

Like I said you and the Bane cult have failed to offer any speed feats for DOE Bane to prove he's faster than Fisto.

Bane as of DoE is not slow. Yes, he was in decline but he was still in good fighting condition when he clashed with Zannah.

Nah, you're clearly flailing around in the depths of the most violent of hissy fits.

Once again, the onus isn't on me because I never claimed to be arguing about this fight. I'm just responding to a few of your comments. Sigh. I wonder how many times I'll need to repeat myself until you're able to grasp that.

You still haven't proven Bane is faster than Fisto other than utilizing your own worthless opinion and citing examples of when he was amped. Either concede the point or move onto arguing for Bane vs. Thanaton.

http://media.tumblr.com/a1410ebd52c0b74399000d70205f0379/tumblr_inline_mgtttkMdQa1qfe5t2.png

What is this, the fifth time? You really are quite dense, huh? I am not arguing the thread with you. Accept it.

Im glad to see youve admitted defeat and that your own opinions dont qualify as feats. Thank you for conceding my son

Whatever you need to say to let you sleep at night, bro.