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Which team takes it?

Team one very solidly.

Team 1 destroys

Really? Team 1 in a stomp over Krayt in his best form and Kun with his OP amulets? I thought it would be closer than that.

Team 1 without a doubt.

Luke can react to sub light speeds and Yoda fights at the Emperors speed who can blitz multiple Jedi masters at once, move fast enough to casually deflect a nexus enhanced Dooku, and thats not even addressing the massive force disparity. Kun can get blitzed and Krayt would barely perceive their movements before falling.

Oh yeah, team 1 crushes them.

Interesting. Luke's feats are all extremely impressive but he is fairly inconsistent. Yoda I feel fights on par with his opponents, depending on who he is facing. From his movie fight in AoTC with Dooku, he may have been winning, but he didn't make Dooku look a fool. I find it hard to believe team 1 could blitz team 2 but I'll take your words for it!

Either Luke or Yoda can proabably solo; very poor topic.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Either Luke or Yoda can proabably solo; very poor topic.

I really don't think Yoda would solo. He's strong, but not strong enough to handle two sith lords of this level on his own.


That said, he can take one of them (proly Kun), and Luke can take the other with even more of an advantage.

Originally posted by Q99
I really don't think Yoda would solo. He's strong, but not strong enough to handle two sith lords of this level on his own.
Agreed

Yoda and Luke are hyped too much.

Exar Kun presented challenge to the entire Academy by himself. Sorcery is highly effective and beneficial art for all purposes.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Yoda and Luke are hyped too much.


http://i.imgur.com/al5iLxd.gif

Originally posted by Selenial
http://i.imgur.com/al5iLxd.gif
You claimed that Luke can solo a Dark Council.

He claimed that Yoda can solo Kun and Krayt.

Both examples verify my point.

Luke can solo, though. With Yoda on his team they win decisively.

Hmm, I'm not sure Yoda can.
But on the other hand he eclipses Krayt and Kun individually in every stat, so maybe.

Team 1 crushes.

Team 1 destroys.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Agreed

Yoda and Luke are hyped too much.

Yes, let us not forget, Dooku on his own was able to hold off Yoda pretty well. And Luke... well, he does tend to overpower even strong foes when he gets serious, but numbers certainly would make things much harder. He's not invincible, just strong.

Two strong sith lords could definitely handle Yoda. And two vs Luke would definitely not be a fight Luke looks forward to, there'd be real danger for him there.


Though, 2 on 2 there's really no question. Luke can beat just about anyone in an even matchup.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You claimed that Luke can solo a Dark Council.

Maybe with prep, but without I agree, Luke probably couldn't take an entire Council in an all out brawl.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Maybe with prep, but without I agree, Luke probably couldn't take an entire Council in an all out brawl.


I'd think he'd need to split them up and deal with many as ones- or twos-. Only the martially weaker council members can really be dealt with in groups.

Luke is strong, but fairly regularly other individuals can give him some fight. If he had to take on Baras, Marr, Jadus, and Thanaton at once.... even for Luke that'd be majorly overwhelming!

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Maybe with prep, but without I agree, Luke probably couldn't take an entire Council in an all out brawl.
Luke cannot under any circumstance.

lol

Luke => Sidious > Vitiate

Originally posted by Q99
Yes, let us not forget, Dooku on his own was able to hold off Yoda pretty well. And Luke... well, he does tend to overpower even strong foes when he gets serious, but numbers certainly would make things much harder. He's not invincible, just strong.

Two strong sith lords could definitely handle Yoda. And two vs Luke would definitely not be a fight Luke looks forward to, there'd be real danger for him there.


Though, 2 on 2 there's really no question. Luke can beat just about anyone in an even matchup.
I disagree with your last point. Luke cannot beat just about anyone in an even matchup. He failed to defeat Lord Nyax as an example.

Luke does not wins every fight without circumstances often favoring him.

Originally posted by Nalaniel
Luke => Sidious > Vitiate
This have not been established canonically/officially, sorry.

Originally posted by carthage
lol
You claimed that you have me on ignore. You lied?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This have not been established canonically/officially, sorry.

Luke has been called one of the most powerful force users in many sources.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This have not been established canonically/officially, sorry.

Yes it can and has, Luke is the most powerful Force User 'in the mythos', Sidious is the most powerful Sith ever.

Search your 'ground realities' you know it to be true.

Originally posted by Nalaniel
Luke has been called one of the most powerful force users in many sources.
"One of the," miss.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Yes it can and has, Luke is the most powerful Force User 'in the mythos', Sidious is the most powerful Sith ever.

Search your 'ground realities' you know it to be true.
Luke have never been officially touted as the most powerful Force-user in the mythos.

Sidious was officially touted as 'most powerful practitioner of the dark side' and Sith Lord in different sources but prior to introduction of The Ones and Emperor Vitiate to the mythos, therefore, Sidious is now a "candidate" instead of "confirmed."

I am well aware of the "ground realities."

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
"One of the," miss.
Feats>accolades in game>encyclopedic medium.

Luke is ranked higher because he's simply done more. And Sidious was actually called the "greatest and most powerful" Sith Lord of all time in the same continuity that Vitiate exists in, knowing full well who Vitiate was.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Feats>accolades in game>encyclopedic medium.
Based on what?

Official information have same value irrespective of mediums. However, encyclopedic mediums are best sources for consultation because they cover enormous chunk of the lore and assessments in them are enlightening accordingly.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Luke is ranked higher because he's simply done more. And Sidious was actually called the "greatest and most powerful" Sith Lord of all time in the same continuity that Vitiate exists in.
Luke is ranked the best in FANON.

Continuity argument is misplaced, release dates and coverage of sources matter.

Sidious have been touted as "the most powerful practitioner of dark side" as well, in a 2005 source, willing to believe that he is superior to Force-users such as Son and Abeloth?

The Ones have been unquestionably placed above everyone else.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Based on what?

Official information have same value irrespective of mediums. However, encyclopedic mediums are best sources for consultation because they cover enormous chunk of the lore and assessments in them are enlightening accordingly.


If you are seriously trying to argue that actual showings of power are somehow lower on the ladder than an encyclopedia, I have nothing more to say to you.

Not the point. No ones arguing that Luke is the most powerful Force user of all time here.

And so does showings of power, because feats actually matter. Your release date doesn't change the fact that you still need to actually be shown above someone to be more powerful than them. If you come in with the assumption that anyone, in this case Luke or Vitiate, is going to be the most powerful, you are wasting time and starting a reasoning based on bias.

Nope, but the Son has shown himself to be above Sidious, so I'm not sure why you brought that up. You seem to not be getting the point that showings are greater than accolades.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
If you are seriously trying to argue that actual showings of power are somehow lower on the ladder than an encyclopedia, I have nothing more to say to you.
Did you just assume that feats are not considered for evaluation in an encyclopedic medium? You are utterly wrong.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Not the point. No ones arguing that Luke is the most powerful Force user of all time here.
Oh really?

Here is an example:

Originally posted by AncientPower
Luke is the most powerful Force User 'in the mythos'

Arguing for the sake of argument seems to be your new specialty. Always pay proper attention to what others post.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
And so does showings of power, because feats actually matter. Your release date doesn't change the fact that you still need to actually be shown above someone to be more powerful than them. If you come in with the assumption that anyone, in this case Luke or Vitiate, is going to be the most powerful, you are wasting time and starting a reasoning based on bias.

Nope, but the Son has shown himself to be above Sidious, so I'm not sure why you brought that up. You seem to not be getting the point that showings are greater than accolades.
This is your statement:

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
And Sidious was actually called the "greatest and most powerful" Sith Lord of all time in the same continuity that Vitiate exists in, knowing full well who Vitiate was.

You used an accolade-based argument to support your position and you are lecturing me about the importance of feats?

Well Emperor Vitiate;

1. Did actually solo a Dark Council
2. Successfully controlled the Dread Masters and millions of other Sith
3. Is more battle-tested then Darth Sidious and Son
4. Survived and controlled a ritual that obliterated every living being in its coverage.
5. Influenced the environment of a gigantic world with his powers/dark side practices

So let us not assume that Emperor Vitiate is lacking in accomplishments/feats.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Did you just assume that feats are not considered for evaluation in an encyclopedic medium? You are utterly wrong.

That's not the point at all. The point is, without feats to back up the claim, the claim means nothing. Encyclopedias use more than just feats to make up accolades. They use hearsay, personal opinion, and facts to make claims. To assume that an encyclopedia is the all determining medium to make a presumption is stupid.

I'm responding to your statement with Nalaniel which I'm absolutely sure you knew.

I'm responding to your accolade with another accolade. I never said that accolades couldn't be used, as I have made a habit of using them in arguments myself. I said that feats are superior evidence to accolades. Putting words in other people's mouths has become your habit, though it certainly isn't a new one.

He didn't fight them. He surprised them with prep. It's not a fight.

He doesn't personally go out and control millions. He uses a system of fear and military knowledge. And considering that a lone Jedi and few special forces soldiers went and captured the Dread Masters, I'm doubting that they are the juggernauts you taught them as being.

Source?

Sorcery allows one to do what they can't do normally. While it is impressive, I'm not going to use the Emperor's rituals as proof of his power.

Who assumed that? I said Luke's were greater.

Never stated.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
The Ones have been unquestionably placed above everyone else.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
That's not the point at all. The point is, without feats to back up the claim, the claim means nothing. Encyclopedias use more than just feats to make up accolades. They use hearsay, personal opinion, and facts to make claims. To assume that an encyclopedia is the all determining medium to make a presumption is stupid.
Novels tend to rely upon hearsay, opinions and facts to hype characters. In comparison, Encyclopedic mediums tend to be decisive and neutral.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
I'm responding to your statement with Nalaniel which I'm absolutely sure you knew.
To refresh your memory:

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
No ones arguing that Luke is the most powerful Force user of all time here.

---

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
I'm responding to your accolade with another accolade. I never said that accolades couldn't be used, as I have made a habit of using them in arguments myself. I said that feats are superior evidence to accolades. Putting words in other people's mouths has become your habit, though it certainly isn't a new one.
Emperor Vitiate isn't lacking in feats in comparison to other greats, he have his share of unique accomplishments. Accolades are not assigned without substance, they represent possibilities and big picture of capability of an individual.

ANALOGY: Emperor Vitiate is officially stated to have explored the most sinister and uncharted depths of the dark side. This revelation suggests that Emperor Vitiate might have greatest knowledge and command of dark arts in history of the mythos. With this accolade, authors convey an important aspect of depth of command of the dark side of Emperor Vitiate instead of depicting him performing countless different feats/actions to establish his credibility.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
He didn't fight them. He surprised them with prep. It's not a fight.
He didn't fight them? (WTF)

It was a battle, Emperor Vitiate did not fight this Sith Strike Team in strictly conventional manner but apparently used sorcery to tackle it or some kind of mysterious ability. Nonetheless, this is a valid measure of Emperor's power.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
He doesn't personally go out and control millions. He uses a system of fear and military knowledge. And considering that a lone Jedi and few special forces soldiers went and captured the Dread Masters, I'm doubting that they are the juggernauts you taught them as being.
Emperor's power made such magnitude of subservience possible. Systems of fear and military knowledge are not sufficient to stop potential betrayals/challenges from others in a Sith Empire. In-fact, Emperor Vitiate could be directly challenged for supremacy in accordance with Kaggath rules of his Empire.

Capture of Dread Masters is a largely unknown event, it is not clear how they were captured. However, no one could control Dread Masters or make them subservient. Republic attempted to break them but utterly failed. Empire also could not control the Dread Masters or make them subservient.

As apparent from an operation, each Dread Master is a force to be reckoned with and is considerably above norm in mastery of the dark side. In addition, these monsters can inflict unprecedented destruction on surroundings with support from each other. It is really an incredible achievement and display of power that Emperor Vitiate made these monsters subservient to him.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Source?
I revised my earlier statement. Nonetheless, he is more battle-tested then Darth Sidious and Son put together.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Sorcery allows one to do what they can't do normally. While it is impressive, I'm not going to use the Emperor's rituals as proof of his power.
Sorcery represents purest expression of the dark side and is a true measure of an individual's innate talent in use of dark arts. Sorcery related actions have same requirements that conventional applications have; power; understanding of the Force; and mindset.

Emperor Vitiate's performance in the Nathema ritual is testament to all of his capabilities and talents including his power. It cannot be ignored.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Who assumed that? I said Luke's were greater.
Your belief is subjective.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Novels tend to rely upon hearsay, opinions and facts to hype characters. In comparison, Encyclopedic mediums tend to be decisive and neutral.

How is an encyclopedia neutral as compared to an actual event.

I quoted you responding to another user. I'm not sure if who you're talking about is even including the ones in his analysis, but as I'm not talking about them, it's irrelevant. Here didn't mean this entire thread.

And Sidious is stated, "officially" to know every Force power. He also has showings of said power. It's not just hearsay.

Not it's not. Sorcery is not a measure of anyone's power because it is designed to do things that one is not allowed to do normally. And no, the description of the Dark Council's death does not support it being an actual fight.

He didn't go out fighting and controlling millions directly. While I'm sure he had challengers, he's still using the same system that all Sith use. He's not out personally mindraping all of his subjects.

Doesn't really have any bearing on my point, but okay. Never denied this.

Monsters? Either way, besides their mind domination, they are fairly regular as far as Sith go. It's impressive, but as Vitiate already has undoubted resistance to said domination, and as I said, ruled mostly through reputation, it's not surprising at all that he is able to control them.

http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb459/spiros9110/tumblr_m6xp9rxIkY1r45793_zps19c213d7.jpg

No it's not. Not at all.

He didn't even perform the ritual alone.

Yeah. I can admit my bias though. Either way, I still examine feats to make my determinations. Not hearsay and rumor.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
How is an encyclopedia neutral as compared to an actual event.
Encyclopedia represents 3rd party perspective of everything. Novels are not strictly 3rd party in representation of events.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
I quoted you responding to another user. I'm not sure if who you're talking about is even including the ones in his analysis, but as I'm not talking about them, it's irrelevant. Here didn't mean this entire thread.
You are twisting your argument and not making sense, you originally claimed that 'no one' has argued Luke is the most powerful Force-user of the mythos in this thread, now you are backing away from your own statement. I don't appreciate dishonesty.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
And Sidious is stated, "officially" to know every Force power. He also has showings of said power. It's not just hearsay.
Darth Sidious have not been depicted performing every known talent.

In addition, that accolade seems to be valid for conventional powers/talents. To caution you, Sith Sorcery is a field of dark arts that presents virtually endless possibilities in the matters of creating new powers and manipulation of the Force.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Not it's not. Sorcery is not a measure of anyone's power because it is designed to do things that one is not allowed to do normally.
You are not making sense in this case as well. Sorcery is just a label to define greater ground realities of the dark arts in simple manner, it covers all aspects of dark arts and not just offensive aspects, and every aspect of a Force-user comes in to play when performing a sorcery-driven action just like when performing a conventional action. Sith Inquisitors tend to be sorcerers by nature and practice and they employ both conventional and non-conventional techniques to perform actions/feats.

Consider the example of Darth Thanaton: He knocked out Darth Nox with a single attack (a mysterious ability) in one battle and employed Force lightning to subdue Darth Nox in another battle but augmented Force lightning with sorcery to increase its potency. In both cases, Darth Thanaton used sorcery but in different manner and his power was a factor in both cases.

Don't get fooled by labels.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
And no, the description of the Dark Council's death does not support it being an actual fight.
Emperor Vitiate performed an offensive action to subdue that rebellious Dark Council. It is a battle just like any other battle.

ANALOGY: It doesn't matters if one fighter knocks out the other fighter with a single move, they still fought each other and this is a valid example of a fight.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
He didn't go out fighting and controlling millions directly. While I'm sure he had challengers, he's still using the same system that all Sith use. He's not out personally mindraping all of his subjects.
I did not assert this. However, it is important to understand that Sith respect power and willing to serve only the strongest among themselves. Emperor Vitiate was so powerful that unprecedented number of Sith served him without daring to challenge him for supremacy, list includes Dread Masters.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Doesn't really have any bearing on my point, but okay. Never denied this.

Monsters? Either way, besides their mind domination, they are fairly regular as far as Sith go. It's impressive, but as Vitiate already has undoubted resistance to said domination, and as I said, ruled mostly through reputation, it's not surprising at all that he is able to control them.
Erm, what?

Dread Masters could spawn monstrosities in any setting at will, revive the dead, shape-shift, shift dimensions, teleport, unleash potent powers, telepathically subjugate others and lot more. They stand apart from most Sith in capabilities.

Yes, Emperor Vitiate is resistant to telepathic subjugation, you are correct in this matter. However, his reputation is outcome of his incredible power. Dread Masters would not serve a lesser being, proven by their actions.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb459/spiros9110/tumblr_m6xp9rxIkY1r45793_zps19c213d7.jpg
Emperor Vitiate have fought many opponents, exact count is not known.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
No it's not. Not at all.

He didn't even perform the ritual alone.
1. Ritual involves use of power and command of required talents.
2. It doesn't matters if one individual performs a ritual or many collectively, controlling its outcome is the most important aspect. Survival of Emperor Vitiate in the Nathema ritual was as much at stake as that of any other Sith Lord who participated in it. Emperor's survival in the event and absolute control of a ritual of such a scope and destructive potential is testament to his unprecedented power and command of the dark side in comparison to others.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice

Yeah. I can admit my bias though. Either way, I still examine feats to make my determinations. Not hearsay and rumor.
I consider every bit of information for evaluation.

Vitiate's reputation was lesser then Foundry Revan.

Wank harder.

Originally posted by Selenial
http://i.imgur.com/al5iLxd.gif