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My analyse ;

http://www.comicvine.com/profile/erkan12/blog/darth-maul-vs-darth-tyranus/95498/

Dooku

Dooku.

Yeah. Sorry, but Dooku is superior. He's stated to be more powerful and he's a more skilled duelist. Maul is in better physical shape but that's about it.

Maul has become more powerful thanks to TCW revival.

I'll reserve to make a judgement until the end of Son of Dathomir

Barlow didn't even watch TCW (I know its funny he said this at some insider magazine) so probably he learned Maul's new feats after they told him. Yet he considered him as ''he stands alongside the sith lords only by sheer force of will'' ...

Also Lucas said this ;

''"And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."

--George Lucas, Rolling Stones Interview, 2005.
'' From then on, he (Vader) wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- Vader was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku.

It doesn't matter. Barlow has the approval to determine Maul's strength. And that quote has next to nothing to do with the topic at hand. Maul obviously isn't more powerful than Sidious.

Dooku you mean ?

No, their telekinesis feats are matches at TCW, Maul force pulled Eta Class Shuttle (spaceship), collapse a cave while hurling Obi-Wan and force choked Obi-Wan more than once. Dooku is not superior to TCW Maul in terms of TK.

For TP, Maul killed a telepath with just his dark thoughts.

Force lightning goes to Dooku.

Dueling skill, Dooku is a little better, however Dooku is weak against physical attacks in mid-duel, thats why he lost to Anakin's djem-so in RotS, and Maul's dueling skills depends on physical, remember Savage vs. Dooku, Savage throwed Dooku with just one stroke only, Maul easily defeated the same Savage via physical. Maul has serious physical advantage over Dooku.

What would Jeremy Barlow know about Darth Maul's power level or about official canon?

In any case Dooku is superior to Maul. But Maul makes Dooku work for the win.

This is the part I mentioned from Insider Magazine ;

http://i760.photobucket.com/albums/xx244/Karasakal/capture-20140812-005342_zps39ed18a2.png

Also Son of Dathomir based on unaired episodes of The Clone Wars television series. I believe Jeremy Barlow's script was really limited, since it has been already decided by TCW editors...

Originally posted by Marco1907
Dooku you mean ?

No. You gave a quote about Sidious finding people more powerful then him as if it somehow showed that Maul was on Dooku's level, or so I assumed. He isn't.

Dooku's TK feats are superior to that, and it was a narrow cave collapsed during an act of desperation, and Kenobi has far from the best Force defense in the mythos.

Um, okay.

Okay.

He didn't lose because he was weak against physical blows. He lost because Anakin is just that good and was using his fear of losing Obi-Wan to give a temp amp. Dooku bested the same Savage who is physically stronger than Maul. This is about skill, which Dooku has more of.

Remember how Savage got his ass handed to him? Are you trying to argue that Savage>Dooku as well?

And? Dooku was very capable of fending off both Savage and Ventress.

@FreshestSlice

No, of course Dooku is superior to Savage Opress. Just that Savage's style depends on physical might, and thats something Dooku can't tank, strong kinetic attacks & physical blows in mid duel.

Dooku defeated Savage via force lightning, not because of lightsaber combat. I also think that Maul can deflect Dooku's lightning with his lightsaber unlike Savage.

Dooku doesn't need to tank powerful physical blows. He simply deflects and redirects the blows, as well as dodging them with superior footwork.

Notice how Maul handled Opress' s blow in their little fight. He also redirected the Brute's angry blows. Dooku is the Master of that technique so he has no issue there. In fact that issue only ever comes up when Dooku is having to deal with multiple opponents. And even then he had a great record of taking on multiple opponents.

I was talking about this scene ;

http://i760.photobucket.com/albums/xx244/Karasakal/3584808-dookusweakness_zpsd87b06d3.gif

^ Yeah and considering he was fighting off 2 opponents (and winning mind you, something Maul couldn't do) he was probably just taken back by Opress' s strength. Let's not ignore the fact that due to Makashi's excellent footwork Dooku was easily evading many attacks from both Venress and Opress in that scene.

However if you see Dooku's one on one training session with Opress, you'll see how Dooku completely Stomps him in Sabers, and how Opress' s strength( and Kinetic Energy he generates from his strength) is no problem for Dooku whatsoever.

That's not to take away from Opress. Flooring Dooku (even with aid from Ventress) is a great feat. One that neither Ventress or Kenobi have ever managed. But let's not blow it out of proportion. There's no "weakness" Dooku has when dealing with Brutes.

@DARTH POWER

Dooku didn't win there, stalemated with Asajj + Savage duo. And I disagree, Maul could do the same with Asajj + Savage, he already stomped Savage via lightsaber combat+martial art, and Maul could stomp Asajj as well.

And training - sparring really means nothing, Savage didn't even know how to swing a lightsaber, so it is natural that his kinetic attack was weak at that point. After his training, Dooku never manage to deflect his powerful kinetic attacks.

Well, lets say agree to disagree then.

Sure imo, Dooku can tank a kinetic attacks for some degree I am not saying he is totally vulnerable to it, and Savage's strength is really abnormal, he is probably even physically stronger than Anakin & Maul (Maul is debatable though since he was able to twist Savage's hand)

Dooku wins.

Originally posted by Marco1907
Well, lets say agree to disagree then.




Cool. I'm just trying to dispell this myth that Dooku can't handle powerhouses. He can. And I think as opposed to being a weakness, it's actually a strength of Makashi that it conserves energy, and redirects power blows and concentrates on footwork, rather than trying to meet power blows "head on" with equal or more power.

Maul tells Dooku that Talzin has shown him true power, so I'm assuming he has delved in nightsister magic, and considering that Talzin implies that magic is what enables her to harness the force, Maul's delving in it may have deepened his connection to the force.

Also, considering the location where Sidious' final show down against Maul and talzin takes place, it should be an extremely good feat for Sidious.

In part 3 of SOD when the Jedi think Maul is the second Sith Lord alongside Dooku, Windu says it's clear that Dooku is the Sith Master and Maul the Apprentice.

So Windu obviously assumes Maul is Dooku's apprentice and not the other way around, because he knows Dooku is more powerful than Maul.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
In part 3 of SOD when the Jedi think Maul is the second Sith Lord alongside Dooku, Windu says it's clear that Dooku is the Sith Master and Maul the Apprentice.

So Windu obviously assumes Maul is Dooku's apprentice and not the other way around, because he knows Dooku is more powerful than Maul.


Mace could have came to that conclusion based on other reasons.

Either way, I wasn't trying to argue that he was more powerful than Dooku. I'm just suggesting that Maul's power may have increased since we last seen him in season 5. Regardless, they have comparable TK feats (Dooku slightly superior, IMO). As far as sabers is concerned, it's hard to compare them based on their performances against Kenobi (which is what everyone uses to compare the two), considering Maul was never intent on killing Obi Wan, and has never faced him with his more normal-like legs. In other words Maul has never fully unleashed himself against Kenobi the way Dooku has, but I'd still say Dooku is slightly a better duelist as well, plus he has lightning as an added bonus (something Maul has never shown to utilize). The only area in combat that Maul has Dooku beat in is strength.

So far, my vote would go to Dooku.

Although even in strength let's not forget Dooku's Uber kick sending Anakin Skywalker flying in ROTS. And the way he would repeatedly floor Ventress with kicks too.

Maul should still take a reasonable majority against ROTS Kenobi based on feats from Son of Dathomir and Kenobis lack of force defense

Originally posted by DARTH POWER


Although even in strength let's not forget Dooku's Uber kick sending Anakin Skywalker flying in ROTS. And the way he would repeatedly floor Ventress with kicks too.


Dooku is not lacking in strength by any means, especially considering that the force users that he does he floor with physical attacks all have notable strength feats of their own. Maul is just physically superior based on his casual handling of Savage's strength. Although I do agree that Dooku was somewhat taken by surprise by Savage's strength when he was disarmed and floored, but the fact that he relied on heavy force usage to keep Savage at a distance after that, indicates that he still found Savage's strength to be a threat, and even acknowledged that Ventress was only a challenge because of Savage's help. Obviously the only challenge present from Savage's end was his strength, since Dooku eclipsed him in everything else. However, that doesn't make Dooku weak. Savage is one of the physically strongest force users in the mythos; even before his amp, he was punching holes in stone walls.

@Cart, I agree. But I don't think Kenobi lacks in force defense. He just happens to be consistently ragdolled by TK powerhouses.

@Cart, I agree. But I don't think Kenobi lacks in force defense. He just happens to be consistently ragdolled by TK powerhouses.

True. For example he protected himself against RotS Anakin's force push easily in their duel, and Obi-Wan has some decent TK feats.

Since Maul's force powers has grown in TCW, and he become at the same level with Count, it is not weird that Obi-Wan get caught by Maul with TK attacks.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
In part 3 of SOD when the Jedi think Maul is the second Sith Lord alongside Dooku, Windu says it's clear that Dooku is the Sith Master and Maul the Apprentice.

So Windu obviously assumes Maul is Dooku's apprentice and not the other way around, because he knows Dooku is more powerful than Maul.

I think thats because of CIS, since Dooku is the leader of the CIS army and other planets, and Maul was only using crime syndicates and the some part of the mandalorians, it is natural that Dooku should be the main leader. Because Dooku holds more power than Maul, CIS > Shadow Collective. Still when Palpatine said to Windu, ''didn't they fought against each other before, how are they allies now?'' Windu just said ''deception perhaps?'' so Windu was not sure either, CIS should be the main reason for this assumption.

As for the duel match ups, it seems to me that Maul was the stronger one though, first Maul matched with Obi-Wan, then he matched with Windu + Aayla duo.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Maul is just physically superior based on his casual handling of Savage's strength. Although I do agree that Dooku was somewhat taken by surprise by Savage's strength when he was disarmed and floored, but the fact that he relied on heavy force usage to keep Savage at a distance after that, indicates that he still found Savage's strength to be a threat, and even acknowledged that Ventress was only a challenge because of Savage's help. Obviously the only challenge present from Savage's end was his strength, since Dooku eclipsed him in everything else.



I think Maul's "Physically" stronger with greater martial art prowess but Dooku more than even's the odds with "Force Enhanced" strength, speed (dancing around Opress and Ventress) and skill.

Not sure how well the Savage example works considering Dooku was facing Savage plus Ventress, whilst Maul was just concentrating on Savage. We've seen Dooku tackle Savage alone in their sparring session, and it was pretty much as embarrassing for Savage as his battle against Maul. So perhaps Dooku just struggles more with that level of strength when he's facing a second opponent on top. After all the whole "Makashi is weak to Djem So" nonesense comes from the ROTS novel which actually states how difficult it becomes "While fending off a Second Opponent." But then that's when Dooku will just resort to Force TK/FL Attacks to deal with the second guy.

Perhaps Dooku can't "Defend against" or handle/take a punch or a kick as well as Maul (although that's not really happened enough for us to judge properly). But in terms of physical (or force enhanced) "Attacks", Dooku's kick sending Skywalker flying across the room and completely flooring him for a good 10 seconds, has to be superior to any physical attack Maul has done on noteworthy Jedi as far as I can remember.

Imho Dooku is above Maul but it would be a difficult fight nevertheless.

Originally posted by Marco1907
I was talking about this scene ;

http://i760.photobucket.com/albums/xx244/Karasakal/3584808-dookusweakness_zpsd87b06d3.gif
Before I thought that it was Opress' attack alone that ripped lightsaber out of Dooku's hand. Looking at this gif that is actually not the case. You can clearly see that Dooku blocked attack and lightsaber remained in his hand. He dropped it as result of hitting the wall, which is rather circumstantial cause.

@arheal

Nice catch, I didn't see it before, but still Dooku couldn't resist the sheer strength of Savage there, if you consider that even Asajj can resist a little better in this duel,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlJiphrbLyg

(though Asajj disarmed by Savage too there but still she didn't fly like Dooku.)

Originally posted by Arhael


Before I thought that it was Opress' attack alone that ripped lightsaber out of Dooku's hand. Looking at this gif that is actually not the case. You can clearly see that Dooku blocked attack and lightsaber remained in his hand. He dropped it as result of hitting the wall, which is rather circumstantial cause.


Whoaa I never even noticed that myself. Without that wall Opress's attack would have merely pushed Dooku back.

I think a cramped arena like that doesn't ideally fit Dooku's skill set. Ideally he wants room to give ground and fling his opponents a large distance away.

That's why he's always performed better against Anakin and Obi-Wan (clearly a stronger duo than Opress and Ventress), because he's always fought them in a much more open space.

If Count Dooku was the one to initiate the fight against Ventress and Opress, I'm sure he'd pick a different arena, and I'm certain now he would batter them both.


Originally posted by Marco1907
@arheal

Nice catch, I didn't see it before, but still Dooku couldn't resist the sheer strength of Savage there, if you consider that even Asajj can resist a little better in this duel,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlJiphrbLyg

(though Asajj disarmed by Savage too there but still she didn't fly like Dooku.)


Dooku fences one handed, so doesn't generate the same level of kinetic energy. In fact he rarely even attempts to block powerful blows head on. No, he deflects, redirects, uses footwork to evade the attack and gives ground.

And again Ventress in only focused on Opress there. She's not busy continuously dancing around multiple opponents.

@darth power

Its true that his lightsaber is for one handed (generally), but sometimes he can use for two ;

http://i59.tinypic.com/24ljwgw.jpg
-
http://i62.tinypic.com/2zjf1o7.jpg

As for the Dooku kicking someone, I think that depends on his balance and finding an opening, not via physical strength or martial arts, if you noticed that Dooku only kicking someone when he bend his rivals blade via fencing, he is not kicking casually.

^ Never said he can't put both hands on his Saber. Just that his preferred style is to fence one handed which is the reason he wouldn't generate as much kinetic energy. But he's never trying to.

Kicks and force attacks are a standard part of Saber fighting. Dooku just happens to be very good at applying those other attacks while fencing. As proven countless times against Anakin, Obi-Wan, Ventress, Bulq, Vos e.t.c.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I think Maul's "Physically" stronger with greater martial art prowess but Dooku more than even's the odds with "Force Enhanced" strength, speed (dancing around Opress and Ventress) and skill.

Not sure how well the Savage example works considering Dooku was facing Savage plus Ventress, whilst Maul was just concentrating on Savage. We've seen Dooku tackle Savage alone in their sparring session, and it was pretty much as embarrassing for Savage as his battle against Maul. So perhaps Dooku just struggles more with that level of strength when he's facing a second opponent on top. After all the whole "Makashi is weak to Djem So" nonesense comes from the ROTS novel which actually states how difficult it becomes "While fending off a Second Opponent." But then that's when Dooku will just resort to Force TK/FL Attacks to deal with the second guy.

Perhaps Dooku can't "Defend against" or handle/take a punch or a kick as well as Maul (although that's not really happened enough for us to judge properly). But in terms of physical (or force enhanced) "Attacks", Dooku's kick sending Skywalker flying across the room and completely flooring him for a good 10 seconds, has to be superior to any physical attack Maul has done on noteworthy Jedi as far as I can remember.


The Savage example works perfectly. Even if Dooku was somewhat taken by surprise, the fact that the impact of their saber clash sent Dooku flying a good distance in the air and crashing hard against the wall, clearly shows Savage as being physically stronger than Dooku. Maul, on the other hand, casually parried Savage's attacks with one hand. Now I'm not suggesting that Maul is as strong as Savage, but the difference in strength isn't enough to give Maul much trouble as it would Dooku. Going back to Dooku being floored by Savage, Ventress was briefly taken out of the fight by that point and it was a brief one on one between him and Savage, so it had nothing to do with fending off both of their attacks at the same time.

Savage's sparring session with Dooku shouldn't be compared to his duel against Maul, considering that Maul provoked Savage's anger before allowing Savage to make his attack. Plus Talzin's magic seems to allow Savage to tap into his overall force potential at a quicker rate than most force users, hence why Dooku seemed to be taken by surprise by Savage's strength, something he shouldn't be surprised by if Savage didn't increase in strength since their sparring match.

As far as Dooku overpowering Anakin with a physical attacks isn't anymore impressive than Obi Wan overpowering Skywalker when he was disguised in TCW, or his flooring of Skywalker during their duel in ROTS, and I'm sure we agree that Obi Wan isn't as strong as Maul. Anakin has only shown to be as strong as Savage when he taps into his rage with clarity, otherwise people like Obi Wan and Dooku could effect him with physical attacks. I'd say that Maul's overpowering of Savage (though, it had a lot to do with a gap distance in skill and speed) is a greater showing in terms of in-combat strength feats, considering that, on average, Savage is solidly Anakin's superior in strength. Anakin's best strength feats only rival Savage's when he is in rage mode, otherwise he's very prone to being briefly overpowered by Dooku.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
The Savage example works perfectly.


I wouldn't go that far as saying "perfectly" especially when the likes of Ventress and Kenobi have had an easier time defending against Opress's blows than Dooku- That's if you insist on using the example of Opress flooring Dooku with that 1 blow.


Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Even if Dooku was somewhat taken by surprise, the fact that the impact of their saber clash sent Dooku flying a good distance in the air and crashing hard against the wall, clearly shows Savage as being physically stronger than Dooku.


I'm not arguing Dooku is stronger than Opress. Just that contrary to popular belief, he can handle the strength of Physical beasts Opress or Maul or Windu.

But this example really isn't the best one to compare strength:

1. Dooku was only holding his blade with one hand, which is part of his fencing style and why he doesn't like to go "head to head" usually.

2. He was one after the other fighting Ventress and Opress, then Ventress then Opress.All in a cramped space constantly evading one of them. If in the middle of all that a Physical Beast like Opress happens to land a powerful blow which sends Dooku flying back.. That really isn't saying much, except that Opress is really strong.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

Savage's sparring session with Dooku shouldn't be compared to his duel against Maul, considering that Maul provoked Savage's anger before allowing Savage to make his attack. Plus Talzin's magic seems to allow Savage to tap into his overall force potential at a quicker rate than most force users, hence why Dooku seemed to be taken by surprise by Savage's strength, something he shouldn't be surprised by if Savage didn't increase in strength since their sparring match.


Savage was clearly getting frustrated in his Sparring match against Dooku, and was trying harder getting angrier each time.

I've already quoted Dave Filoni confirming that Dooku's training accounted for a very little amount of Opress's power. It was basically all his Nightsister amp.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
As far as Dooku overpowering Anakin with a physical attacks isn't anymore impressive than Obi Wan overpowering Skywalker when he was disguised in TCW, or his flooring of Skywalker during their duel in ROTS, and I'm sure we agree that Obi Wan isn't as strong as Maul.

No no no. At no point did Kenobi with 1 hit send Skywalker flying the way Dooku did, and completely knocking the wind out of him.

That 1 physical hit from Dooku is still better than any single physical hit I've seen from Maul, Kenobi, Ventress or even Anakin against anyone noteworthy.

And it's not the only time Dooku has displayed powerful physical attacks. He kept flooring Ventress across the room too. I've not seen Kenobi or Anakin flooring Ventress several times like that.

It's pretty obvious now How much Dooku outclasses Maul

He should steamroll

50/50. Dooku is obviously better but Maul is made to take down Dooku and could outlast him every time.

Not even a fight tbh.

Mauls failure against padawans and dogs is worse than Dooku losing to pirates. Dooku stomps.

Guys...
THIS THREAD IS 2 YEARS OLD

Dooku stomps.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Mauls failure against padawans and dogs is worse than Dooku losing to pirates. Dooku stomps.


Not to mention Maul got his legs blown off by said pirates anyway.