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Setting: Kashyyyk forests

Morals off, all characters are bloodlusted.

All-out fight, they start 50 feet apart.

Who wins?

Team 1 and its not close

Team 1 solidly.

Plagueis>>Malgus
Vader>Bane
Dooku>/=Revan

Team 2 imo. But its a very good fight.

Plagueis's presence on Team 1 tips the scales, I think.

Well obviously my evaluation is different as heck.

Bane = Plagueis
Malgus > Vader (via lightning + maybe sabers)
Revan > Dooku (via all around force abilities)

Team 2.

My opinion:
Plagueis >/= Bane
Malgus > Vader
Revan > Dooku

Plagueis is the fastest combatant here and even while sustaining grave injuries he can easily atomize dozens of opponents.

Vader has the best TK feats. Also I don't think Malgus would be able to put him down via FL given the fact that amped FL from Galen freaking Marek couldn't and it was applied directly to a cut in his armor.

Dooku is the best duelist here.

Remember, no nexus setting so Bane won't be able to use all of his abilities.

I'm leaning towards team 1.

Mareks FL did put Vader down. It just didn't kill him because TFUII was shit.

Well, it stunned him, sure, but he was standing up moments later.

Put down as in KO'ed him.

Also at this point Vader lost his saber and hand, so he couldn't block it.

Besides, Marek feats sh1t all over Malgus's

It rendered him incapable of fighting back. If that happened to him here Malgus would snip his head off with a swipe.

Not his lightning feats. And you're cheating by saying he blasted Vader with amped lightning through a tear in his armor. In the books Marek blasts Vader there after he's been disarmed (Vader still has his hand and his saber), but he doesn't amp it on anything. In the games he amps it and doesn't hit Vader through a weak spot. You can't have it both ways.

Originally posted by Nephthys
It rendered him incapable of fighting back. If that happened to him here Malgus would snip his head off with a swipe.

Perhaps. But on the other hand my pecking order force-wise is: Marek>Vader>Malgus
so while Marek overwhelmed Vader, Malgus won't be able to IMHO.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Not his lightning feats. And you're cheating by saying he blasted Vader with amped lightning through a tear in his armor. In the books Marek blasts Vader there after he's been disarmed (Vader still has his hand and his saber), but he doesn't amp it on anything. In the games he amps it and doesn't hit Vader through a weak spot. You can't have it both ways.

Hmm, then I don't remember correctly, sorry. I could swear even in the games it was a blast directly to a tear in Vader's armor...

Regardless, going by the games it was an amped FL blast, something Malgus won't be able to do here.
Going by the book, Malgus would need to first tag Vader, and that will be supremely hard to do.

Coming to think about it Plagueis might be too big of an advantage for team 1.
IIRC it is heavily implied that at the time of TPM he could defeat Palps in 1v1. If this is so, he defeats everyone on team 2 easily.

Vader can take on anyone from team 2 as well, and I'm not even sure if Dooku will lose a majority to any member of team 2.

As it is, team 1 wins this comfortably.

Team 1.

Originally posted by Stigma
Perhaps. But on the other hand my pecking order force-wise is: Marek>Vader>Malgus
so while Marek overwhelmed Vader, Malgus won't be able to IMHO.

Nah. Malgus has comparable TK to Vader considering his performance against the Strike Team, with the added bonus of very powerful lightning and highly potent abilities like Maelstrom.

Originally posted by Stigma
Hmm, then I don't remember correctly, sorry. I could swear even in the games it was a blast directly to a tear in Vader's armor...

Regardless, going by the games it was an amped FL blast, something Malgus won't be able to do here.
Going by the book, Malgus would need to first tag Vader, and that will be supremely hard to do.

Not that I can see.

Except Malgus' lightning is more powerful than Mareks naturally, so he won't need it. And even if it doesn't take Vader out, it would hurt him and give Malgus the upper hand in the fight.

I suggest that Malgus and Vader are even in terms of lightsaber ability, with Vader maybe having a slight disadvantage because of the big f*ck-me box right on his chest. Both are very powerful, skilled, fast and strong Djem So duelists. Vader is more skilled, but he is also diminished by his artificial limbs.

Neither team would win every time, pretty good match up. I would lean towards team 2 winning the majority, whatever that might be.

Pretty damn good fight.

Revan > Dooku
Plagueis > Bane
Vader > Malgus

Going with team 1.

Originally posted by Trocity
Neither team would win every time, pretty good match up. I would lean towards team 2 winning the majority, whatever that might be.

Team 1 would annihilate team 2 every time.

Plagueis' presence indeed tips the scale in Team 1's favor.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Pretty damn good fight.

Revan > Dooku
Plagueis > Bane
Vader > Malgus

Going with team 1.

How is Vader beating Malgus?

Because he's better.

In what way? How is he actually going to win?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Because he's better.

Ok. So despite having no real advantages, while Malgus has a big one on him, he still wins because you like him more. Makes sense.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Ok. So despite having no real advantages, while Malgus has a big one on him, he still wins because you like him more. Makes sense.

Is that something unusual?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Ok. So despite having no real advantages, while Malgus has a big one on him, he still wins because you like him more. Makes sense.
I like Malgus more.
Vader is just superior.
Accept that and move on.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Ok. So despite having no real advantages, while Malgus has a big one on him, he still wins because you like him more. Makes sense.

He's slightly stronger, notably faster, notably more powerful, significantly more skilled, notably more durable, and has a greater range of esoteric powers.

Also, Vader has been working for over 20 years to build himself in defense of Malgus's "big advantage". As of TFU II, with his built in insulation and force resistance, he can handle lightning better than almost anybody.

Team 1 has the advantage.

Plagueis and Bane are very close in power. Bane has more arcane capabilities but when it comes right down to it Plagueis has the upper-hand. Plagueis is slightly stronger in the Force, he makes more calculation per second during a fight and therefore is a slightly better tactician. Every advantage Plagueis has is minute, but he has the overall advantage none-the-less.

Vader and Malgus are also close. Vader only lost to Starkiller because the latter had a greater versatility in force augmented lightsaber combat and superior stamina, though he was weaker in the Force and slightly less of a tactician over-all. Vader stood his ground better against Starkiller II, who was his equal in the Force, but only because Vader trained minute weaknesses in Starkiller II's lightsaber style. Vader lost to Luke because a) he was hesitant to kill his son, b) his inner conflict wasn't just inhibiting his rage, but his ability to think tactically (similar to his battle with Kenobi on Mustafar), and c) Luke had the superior stamina and was using Force rage to win that bout. That being said, normally, Vader is stronger in the Force than Malgus and is the superior tactician. Furthermore, and this is the deciding - despite the fact that Malgus has slightly better versatility (not as much as Galen Marek who utilized more TK and lightning based attacks than Malgus or even Dooku) is that Malgus' style is high-octane and very similar to Vader's, although Vader may have poorer stamina his strength-endurance and precision (mechanical limbs) gives him the slight upper-hand against Malgus.

Revan may win against Dooku due to his superior versatility, similar to why Starkiller beat Vader on TDS I, as Revan had comparable versatility to Starkiller II - definitely more versatility than Starkiller. Although, Dooku was Windu's rival in swordsmanship; a better duelist, but less apt at winning battles but Windu won a duel with a worn-out Sidious (thanks to his shatterpoint charism). All in all, Revan still wins as he's in Dooku and Windu's league as a swordsman and stronger in the Force than all but Bane, Plagueis, Yoda, and Sidious. Although it's debatable as to whether or not he was stronger than Vader in the Force; possible he was, possible he wasn't.

Plagueis vs Bane

First, I want to say that I think Plagueis > TPM Sidious.

TPM's Sidious feats include killing waves or robots and incapacitating waves of aliens of a primitive warrior race.

Bane had feats where he killed those techno-beasts and Andeddu's worshippers.

Plagueis and Bane both didn't do too well against assassins, but both did poorly because plot reasons. Bane was drugged and Cognus was partially severing his connection to the force. Plagueis had to hide his force powers at first.

Plagueis had Midi-chlorian manipulation while Bane had Darth Revan's esoteric powers (thought bomb, the forest fire thing, etc), essence transfer, and other powers from other holocrons.

Plagueis' TK ripped people apart and his lightning could illuminate entire caves and valleys. Bane's lightning could disintegrate people and he could ragdoll the other Dark Lords from his time period (see Quordis).

Plagueis is fast enough that droids cannot sense him. Bane could dodge raindrops.

I think Bane could put up a fight against Plagueis, but would ultimately lose.

Verdict: Plagueis > Bane

Vader vs Malgus

I don't like Malgus so I am going to lowball him and say Vader > Malgus.

Verdict: Vader > Malgus

Revan vs Dooku

Both Jedi were pretty much the best of their era.

Sabers: Malak was known for his combat prowess on the battlefield. Revan was able to best Malak. Dooku was an expert duelist and could go toe to toe with some of the best from his era. I'd give Dooku the edge in sabers.

Force: Dooku's TK could lift giant stones. On a nexus, he could completely ragdoll Ventress with just a finger. A single burst of his lightning could kill a whole squad of clones, but it was easily blocked (unlike Sidious' lightning). Revan was supposedly killing Rancors with his lightning. His TK allowed him to levitate. His tutaminis was incredible and the esoteric powers his holocron taught Bane were beyond anything we've seen from Dooku. I'd give Revan an edge in the force.

Verdict: This one could go either way.

Final Conclusion

This would be a good fight. Neither team would win easily, but I'm leaning towards team 1.

Originally posted by red8
Plagueis vs Bane

First, I want to say that I think Plagueis > TPM Sidious.

TPM's Sidious feats include killing waves or robots and incapacitating waves of aliens of a primitive warrior race.

Bane had feats where he killed those techno-beasts and Andeddu's worshippers.

Plagueis and Bane both didn't do too well against assassins, but both did poorly because plot reasons. Bane was drugged and Cognus was partially severing his connection to the force. Plagueis had to hide his force powers at first.

Plagueis had Midi-chlorian manipulation while Bane had Darth Revan's esoteric powers (thought bomb, the forest fire thing, etc), essence transfer, and other powers from other holocrons.

Plagueis' TK ripped people apart and his lightning could illuminate entire caves and valleys. Bane's lightning could disintegrate people and he could ragdoll the other Dark Lords from his time period (see Quordis).

Plagueis is fast enough that droids cannot sense him. Bane could dodge raindrops.

I think Bane could put up a fight against Plagueis, but would ultimately lose.

Verdict: Plagueis > Bane

Vader vs Malgus

I don't like Malgus so I am going to lowball him and say Vader > Malgus.

Verdict: Vader > Malgus

Revan vs Dooku

Both Jedi were pretty much the best of their era.

Sabers: Malak was known for his combat prowess on the battlefield. Revan was able to best Malak. Dooku was an expert duelist and could go toe to toe with some of the best from his era. I'd give Dooku the edge in sabers.

Force: Dooku's TK could lift giant stones. On a nexus, he could completely ragdoll Ventress with just a finger. A single burst of his lightning could kill a whole squad of clones, but it was easily blocked (unlike Sidious' lightning). Revan was supposedly killing Rancors with his lightning. His TK allowed him to levitate. His tutaminis was incredible and the esoteric powers his holocron taught Bane were beyond anything we've seen from Dooku. I'd give Revan an edge in the force.

Verdict: This one could go either way.

Final Conclusion

This would be a good fight. Neither team would win easily, but I'm leaning towards team 1.
I don't.... WHAT?

Originally posted by Emperordmb
I don't.... WHAT?

2) In KotOR, Revan and Malak were stated as being some the the greatest Jedi of their era. Even if Revan isn't the top dog in TOR, he's still one of the greatest Jedi of that era as well.

Yoda considered Dooku to be one of his greatest students (and his greatest failure).

1) My argument against Malgus is solid. You have to believe me.

Originally posted by red8
2) In KotOR, Revan and Malak were stated as being some the the greatest Jedi of their era. Even if Revan isn't the top dog in TOR, he's still one of the greatest Jedi of that era as well.

Yoda considered Dooku to be one of his greatest students (and his greatest failure).

1) My argument against Malgus is solid. You have to believe me.
2)Some of the best is one thing. The best is another.

1)Yea... no.

red8, I suggest to checkout my Revan Respect Thread.

I think the point was that Dooku was the best of his generation, just like Revan was.

That makes sense.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
I think the point was that Dooku was the best of his generation, just like Revan was.
Revan was the best of his time though, not just generation.
In fact, the Mandalorians awed him as the best in history.

As if Canderous Ordo would have any idea.

Dooku would be the best of his time too, if it weren't for that Yoda guy.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Pretty damn good fight.

Revan > Dooku
Plagueis > Bane
Vader > Malgus

Going with team 1.

Team one very close but I'll nitpick that Dooku >= Revan

I think Plagueis is a bit more powerful than Bane and same applies to Vader and Malgus. Revan would take Dooku but I think team 1 gets this in a really close fight.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
He's slightly stronger, notably faster, notably more powerful, significantly more skilled, notably more durable, and has a greater range of esoteric powers.

Also, Vader has been working for over 20 years to build himself in defense of Malgus's "big advantage". As of TFU II, with his built in insulation and force resistance, he can handle lightning better than almost anybody.

I might be incline to give him the slight strength edge, yes. Slight, though.

Notably faster? That's a load of BS. Malgus easily matches him in speed. Vader is notably less maneuverable though.

Nah, he's not more powerful. Malgus embraced the darkside far more fully than Vader did. His power rivals Vaders, easily.

Nor is he significantly more skilled, either.

And I highly doubt he's that much more durable. Malgus' armor repelled lightsaber strikes, just as Vader's did and he walked away from getting blasted into a cliff and having it fall on him, after already tanking assault cannon fire and a thermal detonator to the face.

What esoteric powers?

I don't see your point. It's still an advantage that Malgus has that Vader doesn't. Marek was able to force Vader back with lightning and then defeat him with it. Malgus' lightning is superior to Mareks.

He's definitely faster, based on feats.



That is true, I had forgotten about that.



Vader's more powerful than just about anybody.



Oh, he definitely is. His skill feats already match Malgus's pre-ANH, and between then and ESB he is stated to have become a far more formidable duelist, and between then and RotJ stronger still.



We've seen Vader have 3 limbs slashed off and continue to fight.



TP, Kinetite, dabbling in Magic, etc.

Vader has lots of power, such as superior skill, durability, strength, TK, TP, creativeness, however speed ?

No, Vader is not fast.

Vader has moved faster than thought, has ran invisibly fast, has produced afterimages behind his blade, formed a shield out of his lightsaber blade, has deflected fire from dozens of shooters, etc.

Faster than thought is obviously hyperbole. Moving faster than the eye can see is a mid-tier speed feat in SW. Producing afterimages and forming a shield by spinning his saber is as well. And I thought he only actually deflected fire from 3 of those shooters.

I don't want to lowball Vader here, but I will just say that Vader has been stated as ''slow'' by average jedi and outmaneuvered via agility by average jedi more than once.

Originally posted by NewGuy01


Do you think Vader might be the strongest Djem So user in the mythos? The only ones I can think of who rival him are Malgus and Bane.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
He's definitely faster, based on feats.

No, he isn't. None of what you mentioned was as fast Aryn's feats and although she was faster than Malgus, he kept up with her fine and also became much more powerful after their duel.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
That is true, I had forgotten about that.

Malgus isn't the most agile of dudes himself, but he still front-flips over Satele at the start of their fight, is very quick on his feet and in moving his body and jumps around quite a bit. Going off of the trailers.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Vader's more powerful than just about anybody.

http://c2.thejournal.ie/media/2014/05/bunk-the-wire-3.gif

Not Malgus.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Oh, he definitely is. His skill feats already match Malgus's pre-ANH, and between then and ESB he is stated to have become a far more formidable duelist, and between then and RotJ stronger still.

Malgus' skill simply has less elaboration than Vader's does. He was one of the greatest warriors in the Empire even before the war, 40 years before his prime and was constantly fighting and improving himself. He outdueled some of the premier duelists of his era.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
We've seen Vader have 3 limbs slashed off and continue to fight.

Because he has mechanical limbs.

Also that's not durability.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
TP, Kinetite, dabbling in Magic, etc.

Hardly ground-breaking. Kinetite is just focused TK, similar to how Malgus' Maelstrom is just TK, Barrier and Lightning combined. And since when was TP considered esoteric?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Faster than thought is obviously hyperbole. Moving faster than the eye can see is a mid-tier speed feat in SW. Producing afterimages and forming a shield by spinning his saber is as well.

I agree, people use this skill like its something special. Vader isnt an exceptionally fast guy.

Just watch ANH people

Originally posted by Sinious
I agree, people use this skill like its something special. Vader isnt an exceptionally fast guy.

Just watch ANH people

That was way before his prime, and that obviously isn't reflective of the feats Newguy posted as they're all superior showings. Malgus has very few speed feats and they're all showings Vader has done. Even in spite of Aryn's speed, Malgus kept up with her and outfought her. Speed is not an issue for Vader, unless your someone like Plagueis or Palpatine.

Originally posted by carthage
That was way before his prime, and that obviously isn't reflective of the feats Newguy posted as they're all superior showings.

Aren't all the feats Newguy posted before ANH?

I was joking about ANH... Of course he isnt that slow.

Originally posted by Stigma
Plagueis is the fastest combatant here and even while sustaining grave injuries he can easily atomize dozens of opponents.

He cannot atomize anyone, it's a misconception. In book it says "all but atomized". Basically book doesn't say what exactly happened to them but you can imagine anything but being atomized.

Originally posted by Arhael
He cannot atomize anyone, it's a misconception. In book it says "all but atomized". Basically book doesn't say what exactly happened to them but you can imagine anything but being atomized.

With a wave or his hand he disintegrated the ones closest near them, even if it was partial (which there is no evidence for) thats still a tremendous amount of energy to break down armored torso and most of their bodies. This is a feat well beyond the power of anyone on team 2, he did this unamped and still wasnt going full force by his own admission

Unless Zannah does it, of course.



I would consider it a high-tier, Malgus and Aryn were both "almost" faster than the eye could see. To move invisibly fast is extremely impressive.



Producing afterimages of your lightsabers is at least mid-tier, and producing afterimages of your person is higher-tier, I'd say.

And again, Malgus really doesn't have that many impressive feats as far as speed go.




You're mixing up Vader with Malgus, funnily enough.