Emperor's Wrath II vs. Darth Maul (SOD)

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carthage
Force, sabers, all out

Nephthys
Wrath

carthage
Maul

FreshestSlice
Toss up.

NewGuy01
Maul in a close fight.

Nalaniel
Maul.

Nephthys
Wrath gets no respect.

FreshestSlice
Wrath is my favorite TOR character by far, though Nox is certainly climbing the ladder, and I can honestly say Baras is beyond anyone Maul has ever defeated, but everything that makes the Wrath the powerhouse s/he is, Maul has. Which is crazy blitzing.

Nephthys
Maul isn't as fast as people make him out to be. He's no faster than the other regular characters in the CW like Ventress, Obi-Wan, GG or Anakin.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Nephthys
He's no faster than the other regular characters in the CW like Ventress, Obi-Wan, GG or Anakin.


Those are hardly average characters in terms of speed.

NewGuy01
Originally posted by Nephthys
Wrath gets no respect.

Neither does Maul, sadly.

Sinious
This one seems close but I'm leaning Wrath

Nephthys
Bunp.

Beniboybling
I would say Maul really, Wrath is the stronger Force User but not by much, Maul is still pretty powerful, the Wrath just isn't that much stronger than him to the point at which he could overwhelm him with superior speed and strength alone. However skill with the lightsaber goes to Maul hands down, and Maul should be just as physically strong.

Nephthys
I doubt Maul is that much more skilled than him, the Wrath has a bunch of stuff indicating immense skill as well.

Selenial
Maul still, I'd say. After just reading the Maul novels, I have a newfound respect for him. The description of the phantom menace fight is telling, to be honest.

FreshestSlice
Still undecided. Way too close for me to call in good faith.

carthage
Still Maul.

He's beaten and fought more impressive people, its a great fight though.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Nephthys
I doubt Maul is that much more skilled than him, the Wrath has a bunch of stuff indicating immense skill as well. Strength really, not necessarily skill. Sure he is no doubt considerably skilled, but the emphasis is on the sheer power of his offensive.

On that other hand Maul is:His skills have been described as unparalleled, he a "one-being army", remember this guy is a living weapon, the Wrath's combat abilities are simply not on the same level.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Strength really, not necessarily skill. Sure he is no doubt considerably skilled, but the emphasis is on the sheer power of his offensive.

On that other hand Maul is:

His skills have been described as unparalleled, he a "one-being army", remember this guy is a living weapon, the Wrath's combat abilities are simply not on the same level.

No, skill as well. And I don't really see what difference that makes, it's all combat ability. "Unstoppable might", "immense skill" "unrivaled strength in battle", it's all good.

The Wrath is also one of the most skilled and deadly Sith Warriors in history. The greatest warrior of the peak of the Sith's military potency as we know it (except for Malgus maybe depending on how you swing it).

Described by whom? Because I'm fairly certain Mauls skills were paralleled by a few in the PT alone. And the Wrath was also stated to have unrivaled battle prowess and lightsaber skill. And he's a one-being army, he tore through a thousand of the Republics finest soldiers on Balmorra and has fought through hundreds of opponents multiple times. He is far more deserving of that hyperbolic title than Maul, who only ever beat an "army" of gangsters or a few dozen droids.


Also, do you know what happened to Torhead?

DarthAnt66
Even better than him beating a thousand of the Republic's finest is probably beating the entire army of Corellia - like, every ground solider apparently.

Nephthys
**** off is that true. No way, Bioware isn't that crazy.

DarthAnt66
My bad, *Taris. Like, checkout this quote:

"Moff Hurdenn informs me that Faraire has relocated all of the Republic's forces on Taris to protect his command center at the Republic's stronghold."
―Darth Baras (Star Wars: The Old Republic)

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Nephthys
No, skill as well. And I don't really see what difference that makes, it's all combat ability. "Unstoppable might", "immense skill" "unrivaled strength in battle", it's all good.The difference is that power comes from the Force, not his mastery of the tenets of lightsaber combat. Its the difference between clubbing your opponent to death and applying a bit of finesse, if Maul can withstand his bruth force tactics (which he can) he's already won half the battle.Meh, I'm sure you'd interpret it that way, but its nowhere stated as far as I know. Maul also has the bigger history, and is a better duelist than Malgus really.Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter, pretty sure the perspective is objective. Its probably hyperbole but it proves a point, especially considering some of the greatest duelists in history where his contemporaries.

The point is Maul is more than capable of matching the Wrath's martial prowess, but what Maul undeniably possesses is superior skill. The Wrath might be a superior Force User but in a lightsaber duel Maul's edge would be more significant.I don't use it. erm

Stigma
Originally posted by carthage
Still Maul.

He's beaten and fought more impressive people, its a great fight though.
Yeah, Maul thumb up

Nephthys
Originally posted by Beniboybling
The difference is that power comes from the Force, not his mastery of the tenets of lightsaber combat. Its the difference between clubbing your opponent to death and applying a bit of finesse, if Maul can withstand his bruth force tactics (which he can) he's already won half the battle.

Well unfortunately for Maul, I already told you that the Wraths "skills with a lightsaber are unrivaled." I don't know where you got this idea that he's some untrained thug swinging a baseball bat but it's simply not true.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Meh, I'm sure you'd interpret it that way, but its nowhere stated as far as I know. Maul also has the bigger history, and is a better duelist than Malgus really.

It doesn't need to be stated, it's readily apparent from his accomplishments. You read Ant's respect thread, right?

Malgus would beat Maul fairly easily though. And I'd say the Wrath has the bigger history actually. Much more experience in open combat against lightsaber wielding opponents and overall experience in real combat.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter, pretty sure the perspective is objective. Its probably hyperbole but it proves a point, especially considering some of the greatest duelists in history where his contemporaries.

The point is Maul is more than capable of matching the Wrath's martial prowess, but what Maul undeniably possesses is superior skill. The Wrath might be a superior Force User but in a lightsaber duel Maul's edge would be more significant.

I'm still immensely skeptical given that Yoda, Sidious, Dooku, Windu and others existed at that point. But regardless, I've matched that quote.

I disagree that his advantage in skill is undeniable or significant. The Wrath's overall advantage's in the Force and other area's seem greater.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I don't use it. erm

Well looks like you won't get a chance, now it just links to the swtor site. I thought you might know since you're a member there.

It sucks, that was an incredibly useful collection of info.

ILS
On the point of Maul being "unparalleled", I believe it was just a couple of references from Sidious, saying Maul was crafted to be the "ultimate warrior", and that he thought his use of the saberstaff was perfect/"peerless". This was in a private log Sidious created, so it's inherent validity isn't really questionable.

Nephthys
http://images5.fanpop.com/image/photos/27800000/Grinch-Smile-GIF-the-grinch-27844611-500-363.gif

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Pretty sure "The Sith Warrior's skills with a lightsaber are unrivaled" references all Sith Warriors. Which it makes it an even greater testament to the Wrath's skill, given that he's the pinnacle of Sith Warriors in the TOR Empire, other than Malgus. I mean, the Wrath's combat feats also speak to that, but w/e.

Beniboybling
All it demonstrates is some serious hyperbole, not every Sith Warrior can have unrivalled skill, that's self contradicting. I really don't think a general codex entry has anything on Maul's accolades.

ares834
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Pretty sure "The Sith Warrior's skills with a lightsaber are unrivaled" references all Sith Warriors.

Nah. It's singular and the use of "the" suggests it is talking about a specific warrior, THE warrior. Plus like Benji said under your interpretation the very quote contradicts itself.

Nephthys
That's one way to interpret it. But Ant made a very good point that the same page lists Vette and the Warrior's personal ship, so it seems very likely to me it's specifically about the Warrior that players can play as, just written in a collective sense due to the mechanics of the game. There's also pictures next to the quote depicting the Wrath himself.

Regardless though, the Wrath is a Warrior so even if we take it as indicative of all Warriors it proves that they utilise a great deal of skill on top of brute force. As the pinnacle of the class this goes doubly for the Wrath.

Originally posted by ares834
Nah. It's singular and the use of "the" suggests it is talking about a specific warrior, THE warrior. Plus like Benji said under your interpretation the very quote contradicts itself.

Actually it is "A Sith Warrior's skills with a lightsaber are unrivaled."

If we take the collective interpretation I guess we could say that a Sith Warriors skill is unrivaled compared to other professions.

SIDIOUS 66
I wouldn't even give The Wrath an edge in power. Maul nearly choked out Kenobi while at the same time fighting off another jedi, and considering Kenobi's own power, that's not a feat I could see the wrath duplicating. The only force advantage the wrath has is range of attacks.

Nephthys
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I wouldn't even give The Wrath an edge in power. Maul nearly choked out Kenobi while at the same time fighting off another jedi, and considering Kenobi's own power, that's not a feat I could see the wrath duplicating. The only force advantage the wrath has is range of attacks.

Weren't they on a darkside nexus?

Also...... it's Kenobi.

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by Nephthys
Weren't they on a darkside nexus?

Also...... it's Kenobi.


No, the strong dark side presence was from Maul and Savage. It wasn't an outside source of power Maul was tapping into. Just to make sure, I had asked Silver2467 for a background check of the planet, and he said the place was sparsely populated, with Maul and Opress being the first force users on record to have visited the planet. Basically, it's similar to Anakin and Ahsoka sensing the dark side on mustufar when they went to rescue the kidnapped children, but what they were sensing was the holographic presence of Sidious (can Vitiate's mere holographic presence do that, Neph? Lol jp).

Also, Kenobi has some insane force feats. He's toppled trees, wrecked metal rooms, levitated huge metal slabs, caused tidal waves, used huge boulders as projectiles launching them at great speed, etc. The only reason he's ragdolled so much is because of the opponents he goes up against. He's fought all the big dogs except for Sidious.

SIDIOUS 66
I think he said something about the planet not being heavily populated, anyway. I'd have to search through my messages on CV, but I do remember him stating that there being no reason for the particular area being a nexus on account of there being nothing to indicate as much.

NewGuy01
The planet is called nexus. I rest my case.

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by NewGuy01
The planet is called nexus. I rest my case.


Full quote? I've disregarded many of Palpatine's nexus feats so I've no problem disregarding Maul's feat. If Maul and Opress are the source of that power then it's not some outside source of power. I mean, one might say the same regarding Palpatine and Byss, but the difference in that is, Byss was a continuous build up of Sidious's energy, not power he could harness all at once off-world.

Regardless, Maul has consistently overpowered Obi Wan outside of that comic, which is something I don't believe the wrath can replicate to the same degree.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Nephthys
Well unfortunately for Maul, I already told you that the Wraths "skills with a lightsaber are unrivaled." I don't know where you got this idea that he's some untrained thug swinging a baseball bat but it's simply not true.I'm taking the statement to refer to Sith Warriors in general, if it refers to the Wrath specifically the implications are that he is the most skilled lightsaber duelist in the Sith Empire, or perhaps even the galaxy.

Wishful thinking.

I think if we take it as a collective and with a pinch of salt, it means that a Sith Warrior is going to have the best lightsaber skills in any one group or situation.

But anyway I'm not claiming the Sith Warrior is unskilled, but he does rely, as most strong styles do, on brute force to defeat him opponents. To provide an example just look at Darth Malgus:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mm4JEZudf0c&t=4m48s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ToztqqDcaY&t=3m9s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdgmH9Vv2-I&t=2m30s

In all three of these engagements we see Malgus going for the same tactic, overwhelming his opponents through sheer brute force until they relent and always going for the disarming slash. He repeatedly goes for the same zone, usually Zone 1, again and again and again, and sometimes he simply flails his lightsaber like a mace. He does indeed swing his blade like a club until his opponent relents.

I'm not saying such a style of attack is devoid of skill, but what it is is predictable, the goal is not to baffle, trick or outmaneuver the opponent, but to simply batter down any defense they attempt to erect.

Malgus is a cookie-cutter Sith Warrior, and wields the classic styles of the discipline. I have little doubt the Wrath's style will not be the same if not identical.

Maul will have little difficulty reading, anticipating and reacting to such a blatant style, and considering Maul is in peak physical condition and possesses incredible strength, the Wrath will find his attempts to batter Maul down in effective, and he'll respond with a far greater deal of finesse and range of attack. Unlike the Wrath his style will be unpredictable, and it will attempt to baffle, trick and outmaneuver, and it will be executed with absolute perfection.

Once the Wrath fails to batter Maul down, its only a matter of time before Maul outfences him.

I'd also add that Maul has a greater level of agility, mobility being a key weaknesses of strong styles, and Maul is also a master of Teras Kasi, so hand to hand goes to him also.It does, you can't just throw around such impressive accolades based on personal inferences alone. Wrath is a great duelist yes, and he has defeated some impressive opponents. But he hasn't ever dueled the real greats of the era e.g. the Hero of Tython, Malgus, Revan, Satele Shan, Jaric Kaedan, Jun Seros etc. in one on one combat.

So we can't even begin to say he's the best, if even among them.

And when I said history I mean those who have preceded him. When Maul is said to be among "the most skilled and deadly warriors in Sith history" he's being placed along side the likes of Tulak Hord, Exar Kun, Bane, Malgus, Dooku, Sidious, Plagueis etc.Exactly. Unlike the Wrath, he stands among some of the greatest duelists in galactic history.

As for the quote, ILS is correct about the context, however consider that Sidious is 1. not one to shower his pupils in praise, 2. well acquainted with the abilities of his predecessors, and his Jedi contemporaries, including Dooku.

Sidious is no doubt applying the term loosely, but it still bears weight, it puts Maul in the top tier.To be quite honest, I'd argue that in terms of Force power they are easily in the same league.

Feel free to prove me wrong, but Maul has just as impressive feats really.Word is the guy couldn't afford the upkeep...Originally posted by NewGuy01
The planet is called nexus. I rest my case. Maul has ragdolled Kenobi on multiple occassions.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11113/111137054/4254062-tcw+maul+obiwan.gif

That was on Florrum i.e. not a nexus.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11113/111137054/4291208-dfgdfgd.gif
And that was on Mandalore, another non-nexus.

I rest mine, lawls.

Beniboybling
Wow looking at the Wrath's feats again he's not really that much more powerful, Maul has matched and in some cases surpassed the Wrath in each showing.

The Wrath defeated Sel-Makor, but really he's hardly in a different league.

Nephthys
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
No, the strong dark side presence was from Maul and Savage. It wasn't an outside source of power Maul was tapping into. Just to make sure, I had asked Silver2467 for a background check of the planet, and he said the place was sparsely populated, with Maul and Opress being the first force users on record to have visited the planet. Basically, it's similar to Anakin and Ahsoka sensing the dark side on mustufar when they went to rescue the kidnapped children, but what they were sensing was the holographic presence of Sidious (can Vitiate's mere holographic presence do that, Neph? Lol jp).

Also, Kenobi has some insane force feats. He's toppled trees, wrecked metal rooms, levitated huge metal slabs, caused tidal waves, used huge boulders as projectiles launching them at great speed, etc. The only reason he's ragdolled so much is because of the opponents he goes up against. He's fought all the big dogs except for Sidious.

Welp, looks like you're wrong about that. It seems like you're just speculating and trying to handwave it away. If it says its a nexus it probably is. And that Sidious thing isn't impressive on his part, it's just idiotic on the writers.

Ok. But.... Kenobi is still far below the Wrath in Force power. He'd ragdoll him as well. Knocking over tress doesn't rate to disintegrating blast doors. Wrath is a big dog too and Kenobi gets chumped by all the big dogs he's fought.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Beniboybling
I'm taking the statement to refer to Sith Warriors in general, if it refers to the Wrath specifically the implications are that he is the most skilled lightsaber duelist in the Sith Empire, or perhaps even the galaxy.

Wishful thinking.

Why is that wishful thinking? There really aren't any other duelists I would have said were above or on par with him in the Empire even before I brought in that quote and the Hero of Tython is his only rival in the galaxy by the end of the game imo.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I think if we take it as a collective and with a pinch of salt, it means that a Sith Warrior is going to have the best lightsaber skills in any one group or situation.

And like I said, that means that the Wrath is a Sith Warrior and thus is the pinnacle of the group with the best lightsaber skills in the empire. If Warriors are highly skilled fighters then it stands to reason that THE Warrior would be highly skilled. Not just some brute-force thug.

Hell, Inquisitors are said to be just as skilled with a blade as with the Force, so by this interpretation a warrior would be more skilled with a lightsaber than an Inquisitor would be with the Force.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
But anyway I'm not claiming the Sith Warrior is unskilled, but he does rely, as most strong styles do, on brute force to defeat him opponents. To provide an example just look at Darth Malgus:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mm4JEZudf0c&t=4m48s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ToztqqDcaY&t=3m9s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdgmH9Vv2-I&t=2m30s

In all three of these engagements we see Malgus going for the same tactic, overwhelming his opponents through sheer brute force until they relent and always going for the disarming slash. He repeatedly goes for the same zone, usually Zone 1, again and again and again, and sometimes he simply flails his lightsaber like a mace. He does indeed swing his blade like a club until his opponent relents.

I'm not saying such a style of attack is devoid of skill, but what it is is predictable, the goal is not to baffle, trick or outmaneuver the opponent, but to simply batter down any defense they attempt to erect.

confused

Um, yeah. Shien and Djem So are focused on fast, powerful, efficient attacks. Being able to perform in such a manner effectively makes someone a good Djem So/Shien fighter. That doesn't make them less skilled or effective than someone using other forms. Anakin is a Djem So user and everyone fellates his skills despite all his idiotic flourishes and twirling that detract from the effectiveness of the form.

You're also pretty off-point in your assessment. Take the first video, Malgus reverses his grip on his second saber to give him less power but greater defense and he shows impressive finesse in blocking a strike and then quickly turning into a thrust of his own. After he gets Darach on the back-foot he switches to offense sure but his attacks are still fluid and skillful rather than clumsy. Earlier in the fight he performs flips, hops, fluid turns, at one point he pushes off from some debris to give him more height on his jump and is very quick on his feet in general. And in the second video a lot of his movements are more elegant that furious power-attacks, mostly using a one-handed style. And in the last video he's fairly defensive in his approach and he's able to feint Zallow by taking the hit and reversing through his guard. Malgus' style is focused on power, but it's also very efficient and he's still a very fast, mobile fighter who's able to surprise his opponents. His victories in all his video's owe exactly to him outmaneuvering his opponents in some manner.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Malgus is a cookie-cutter Sith Warrior, and wields the classic styles of the discipline. I have little doubt the Wrath's style will not be the same if not identical.

That's kind of a giant assumption.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Maul will have little difficulty reading, anticipating and reacting to such a blatant style, and considering Maul is in peak physical condition and possesses incredible strength, the Wrath will find his attempts to batter Maul down in effective, and he'll respond with a far greater deal of finesse and range of attack. Unlike the Wrath his style will be unpredictable, and it will attempt to baffle, trick and outmaneuver, and it will be executed with absolute perfection.

Personally I don't see any or much more finesse in Mauls fights than in Malgus'. He uses the exact same simplistic blocks and slashes that Malgus does until he goes dual-blade and Malgus can rival him in agility at points. He also uses an aggressively offensive style in Juyo. He's never tried to "baffle, trick and outmaneuver" anyone. In fact, as I recall he's constantly been ****ed over by his arrogance making him attempt a clean fight and been drawn into traps and underestimated opponents. I've already pointed out that you are seriously undervaluing Djem So, Juyo has no inherent advantage over it and I'd actually say the Wrath is much smarter and more levelheaded than Maul.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Once the Wrath fails to batter Maul down, its only a matter of time before Maul outfences him.

I'd also add that Maul has a greater level of agility, mobility being a key weaknesses of strong styles, and Maul is also a master of Teras Kasi, so hand to hand goes to him also.

In your opinion. Or the Wrath will outlast him.

I actually really doubt Maul takes hand to hand. The Wrath does wear heavy armor afterall. So I doubt his kicks and punches will have much effect, especially given the Wrath's endurance. Maul has been staggered by blows a few times, however. If anyone's blows will be relevant, it won't be his imo.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
It does, you can't just throw around such impressive accolades based on personal inferences alone. Wrath is a great duelist yes, and he has defeated some impressive opponents. But he hasn't ever dueled the real greats of the era e.g. the Hero of Tython, Malgus, Revan, Satele Shan, Jaric Kaedan, Jun Seros etc. in one on one combat.

So we can't even begin to say he's the best, if even among them.

And when I said history I mean those who have preceded him. When Maul is said to be among "the most skilled and deadly warriors in Sith history" he's being placed along side the likes of Tulak Hord, Exar Kun, Bane, Malgus, Dooku, Sidious, Plagueis etc.

It's not personal inference, it's just the facts. No-one can do what the Wrath can do and not be counted as among the best Warriors to ever live. And for your information the Swtor protags are repeatedly referred to as the greatest champions of their respective factions. The Wrath was chosen over millions of warriors for his position. Shan, Kaedan and Seros don't have anything putting them on the Wraths level in swordplay (and I would argue neither does Revan). So that just leaves the Hero and Malgus. If he is inferior to those two it's hardly a mark against him.

The Wrath doesn't need to be "the best" of his era to be "one of the best" in history. What does that even mean? It's a completely open-ended statement. One of the best what, million in history?

Most of those are well beyond Maul but ignoring that, you're being needlessly restrictive. Fisto and Kolar and others were called among the best swordsman in Jedi history. You don't have to be one of the very, very top fighters to get that achievement, it's a seriously ambiguous statement that could apply to half the mythos for all we know. It really isn't that big of a deal. The Wrath killed "one of the greatest Sith assassins in history" who was thought to be as great a weapon as any the Sith had ever had (and considering they owned stuff that blew up suns that pretty high praise). Maul being "one of" the best doesn't make him better than the Wrath.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Exactly. Unlike the Wrath, he stands among some of the greatest duelists in galactic history.

As for the quote, ILS is correct about the context, however consider that Sidious is 1. not one to shower his pupils in praise, 2. well acquainted with the abilities of his predecessors, and his Jedi contemporaries, including Dooku.

Sidious is no doubt applying the term loosely, but it still bears weight, it puts Maul in the top tier.

You mean below them. Also **** off, so does the Wrath. >:Originally posted by Beniboybling
To be quite honest, I'd argue that in terms of Force power they are easily in the same league.

Feel free to prove me wrong, but Maul has just as impressive feats really.

I would disagree. That door feat is crazy and he beat a darkside god in it's domain. He also performed the near impossible feat of reflecting lightning, an impressive feat of skill.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Word is the guy couldn't afford the upkeep...

sad

Nephthys
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Maul has ragdolled Kenobi on multiple occassions.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11113/111137054/4254062-tcw+maul+obiwan.gif

That was on Florrum i.e. not a nexus.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11113/111137054/4291208-dfgdfgd.gif
And that was on Mandalore, another non-nexus.

I rest mine, lawls.

Kenobi was tired from fighting Savage and Maul at once and pushing himself for so long. If Maul could ragdoll him at any point, don't you think he would have before then? It didn't even help him in that fight. He lost, remember? If its so easy he could have disarmed Kenobi instead of smacking him around.

Kenobi had a concussion and could barely stand.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Wow looking at the Wrath's feats again he's not really that much more powerful, Maul has matched and in some cases surpassed the Wrath in each showing.

The Wrath defeated Sel-Makor, but really he's hardly in a different league.

MEH. Meh I say! What did you think about the Wrath killing a suped-up Terentatek as an acolyte? It's kind of crazy how prodigious the protags are right out of the gate in that game imo.

Sel Makor isn't in a different league than Darth Maul? Sel Makor, who is a godlike being made up of the darkside of an entire species? So powerful and corrupt a mile of land near him is teeming with corruption and turns Jedi Masters and Sith Lords insane just by being in it? The guy who held Vitiate against his will, who could form beings out of pure energy, provide the energy for a planet-wide attack and threaten the entire galaxy?

NewGuy01
Yep, and that feat's not nearly as impressive as the one on Pleem's Nexus, so on to the next.



This is practically a non-feat, Kenobi was barely even conscious. Also not nearly as impressive as the one on Pleem's Nexus.

Beniboybling
Pleem's Nexus?

Pleem's Nexus?

laughing laughing laughing

Nephthys
OMG its actually called Pleem's Nexus. LOL.

ares834
laughing out loud

Originally posted by Nephthys
Kenobi was tired from fighting Savage and Maul at once and pushing himself for so long. If Maul could ragdoll him at any point, don't you think he would have before then? It didn't even help him in that fight. He lost, remember? If its so easy he could have disarmed Kenobi instead of smacking him around.

Kenobi had a concussion and could barely stand.

thumb up

The Merchant
Wrath.

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by Nephthys
Welp, looks like you're wrong about that. It seems like you're just speculating and trying to handwave it away. If it says its a nexus it probably is. And that Sidious thing isn't impressive on his part, it's just idiotic on the writers.

Ok. But.... Kenobi is still far below the Wrath in Force power. He'd ragdoll him as well. Knocking over tress doesn't rate to disintegrating blast doors. Wrath is a big dog too and Kenobi gets chumped by all the big dogs he's fought.


So is this you admitting Bane gets stomped by Maul and Dooku, because his off nexus TK feats do not even approach theirs? And why would I need to hand wave anything, since it's common knowledge that the power of powerful dark siders can be sensed by other force users? Besides, I'm still waiting for a quote, which no one has presented. I've not read the comic, and the first I've heard it being strong in the dark side was from DP, who even acknowledged that the strong dark side presence could have been from Maul and Savage. Regardless, as I said, Maul as a history of ragdolling Kenobi. He's also gripped him fairly easily in revival. I know you're going to say he had just awoken from unconsciousness, but force users are trained to shrug stuff like that off instantly, unless they are injured which Kenobi wasn't, otherwise we might as well assume Maul being KO'd hindered his performance against Sidious. Proof-less claims of being tired are lame excuses, otherwise I can use that argument against you, and then you'll start crying about this being the past and whatnot, so I don't think you want to go there. The only argument that is valid, is the one when Kenobi and Satine fell from an exploding ship, but I'd argue that the smoke had more of an effect on him than the fall. Even then, though, he had enough power to casually lift a large piece metal off of Satine (oh, wait, did that tire him even more?).

Kenobi didn't have help with any of his feats. However, I do agree that the wrath is more powerful than Obi Wan but he isn't ragdolling him, unless you could provide an argument? Some direct proof because implications of power can be used for Kenobi.

Oh, yes, the Sidious thing is idiotic because Vitiate never did it. But yes, even a holographic image of Sidious can effect the force as seen when he nearly choked Dooku out. BTW, the example was used to indicate that dark siders can be sensed by jedi if they are close, regardless of your opinion about Sidious being able to give off a dark side aura just by his holographic image. The question about Vitiate being able to was just for fun.

Nephthys
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
But yes, even a holographic image of Sidious can effect the force as seen when he nearly choked Dooku out.

LOL.


I will get back to you l8er.

SIDIOUS 66
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Pleem's Nexus?

Pleem's Nexus?

laughing laughing laughing


Yeah, but the term nexus has nothing to do with the force according to a scan from wookieepedia, but something to do with trading or something.

So, yeah, so far, Maul's casual domination of Kenobi while at the same time fighting of other jedi, is a legit feat.

DARTH POWER
Hey? Pleem's Nexus is where Savage fought Plo, not where Maul choked Kenobi.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yeah, but the term nexus has nothing to do with the force according to a scan from wookieepedia, but something to do with trading or something.

So, yeah, so far, Maul's casual domination of Kenobi while at the same time fighting of other jedi, is a legit feat. That what's so funny, that he actually thought it did. roll eyes (sarcastic)Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Hey? Pleem's Nexus is where Savage fought Plo, not where Maul choked Kenobi. So where did it actually happen?

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Beniboybling
So where did it actually happen?


It's not mentioned exactly (I don't think). But they chase them up based on their last known location, so a Planet somewhere near Raydonia I presume. But it definitely wasn't Pleem Nexus (which is just a name btw and has nothing to do with any Force Nexus as far as I'm aware), that was the system they went to after.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
It's not mentioned exactly (I don't think). But they chase them up based on their last known location, so a Planet somewhere near Raydonia I presume. But it definitely wasn't Pleem Nexus (which is just a name btw and has nothing to do with any Force Nexus as far as I'm aware), that was the system they went to after. I see, well I think we can safely rule out a Force nexus then.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by Nephthys
Why is that wishful thinking? There really aren't any other duelists I would have said were above or on par with him in the Empire even before I brought in that quote and the Hero of Tython is his only rival in the galaxy by the end of the game imo.Sorry I meant the most, one of is definitely a possibility but the most is, again, wishful thinking.

Which, to remind you, is that "unrivaled skill" would entail.

Malgus, Satele and others are rivals for that title. Among others. Its just not clear cut, even among Sith.
Malgus is a Sith Warrior to, as are several other members of the DC, including likely Marr. So again no, if we take the statement as a collective and general testament to the Sith Warrior's skill it can't put any one individual above another.

And the fact is it refers to Sith Warriors as a whole, not the Wrath specifically, whatever you might feel is implied."But anyway I'm not claiming the Sith Warrior is unskilled"

You need to pay attention that that. Djem So duelists are not unskilled or clumsy, but they are predictable, and their moves are often basic, effective and definitely powerful, but basic. Because when your goal is to essentially batter you opponent down, nothing works better than really swinging your blade right at them like a club. Flourishes and unnecessary finesses, detract from the effectiveness of the form, and in fact are likely rendered difficult by the unwieldiness of heavy armour.

So what I'm saying is Djem So is very much reliant of the force of the wielder behind it, and if Maul can handle that force, Djem So/strong style really doesn't have much else going for it. Its not the kind of style designed to outmaneuver, feint, dismantle etc. its all brute force. Applied effectively, but still brute force. The point is the Wrath doesn't have much else he can bring to the table.

And I'd encourage you to look these breakdowns if you're going to pick them apart:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-FOIhd7IDM&t=0m55s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69FjDDeYq50

By paying close attention, its clear Malgus is using predominately Zone 1 attacks again and again in fairly similar and basic manner. And Maul will have little difficulty predicting, anticipating and weathering those kinds of attacks. Anything else Malgus employs is all merely to make his attacks hit with more force, there is really nothing that will catch Maul off guard. Nor does Malgus outmaneuver any of them in those fights, in fact he gets outmaneuvered by Satele on several occasions, but recovers. Nor do I see the Wrath outmaneuvering Maul who is ultimately a more agile duelist with better defensive capabilities.

His primary tactic is always to batter them into submission.The point is Malgus and the Wrath will have similar styles, because they are cut from the same cloth.

The only difference is, the Wrath won't have Ataru, so he can't even bring agility to the table.Its not a question of advantages, its just that the strengths of Djem So are ones Maul can handle. The Wrath will attempt to overwhelm Maul with brute force, and that strategy is very unlikely to work, and when it fails, the Wrath has nothing, and that includes superior skill, because Maul is definitely the superior duelist.

Vice versa the Wrath can handle Maul's strength, but Maul's style isn't so focused on strength has the Wrath's is likely to be. At is core is Juyo, which is designed to be chaotic, erratic and unpredictable. Maul is also a master of Niman and Jar'Kai, Niman being a form that draws on all seven styles of lightsaber combat, and Jar'Kai just gives him more options. The point I'm trying to get at is that Maul is just more versatile than the Wrath, he can't defeat him in a contest of pure strength (but neither can the Wrath), but he has plenty of other perfected ways in which he can take him down.

I'd note at this point Maul has never defeated an opponent through sheer strength. He outmaneuvered Qui-Gon, he defeated Kenobi with a well timed Force push, he got the upper hand against Vader through superior agility, and he frequently off balances his opponents with physical attacks, Teras Kasi being another of his many talents.

Now I find your comments that Maul is "arrogant" and the Wrath more level headed to be unsubstantiated. As far as I'm aware on one occassion, when his opponent was dangling above a frikken pit, can you blame him.

Other than that he is extremely level headed, and rarely underestimates an opponent. After his first engagement with Qui-Gon he is described as knowing instantly and exactly how to defeat him, and later proves as much by luring him into a trap, he adopted the saberstaff as a means of tactically overcoming his enemies and he has been described as being able to recognise spot the weaknesses of character and constitution in those he meets.

And outside of lightsaber combat he demonstrated the tatical ingenuity to lead a small underworld army that gathered the attention of Sidious himself, and he even managed to outwit and capture Grievous and Dooku.

This notion that Maul is an arrogant or unintelligent at all is myth tbh.Probably true, but his face might be unmasked, its a target. On the other hand aside from the "b**** slap" I haven't seem much hand to hand ability from the Wrath. Maul can handle a b**** slap.

In terms of stamina I don't see the Wrath outlasting him. Maul's stamina and pain tolerance is pretty profound.

Beniboybling
If it were a fact it would be stated, so its an inference. I'll give you that he could be among the best but the best Sith duelist in the Empire is just guess work, there are plenty of rivals to that title, and again he is untested against them or their Jedi counterparts.

And tbh, most of the Wrath's notable martial feats are of strength and stamina...

And if your among the best, your among an elite group. Elite by definition is a small group, a handful, not a million. So I'm afraid that puts Maul up there with the names I mentioned, regardless of whether you want to believe it.

Pretty sure Kolar has never got such a accolade, but I see no issue with Fisto or Ekkage being considered among the greats. It is a big deal, and it is not an accolade that is handed out to anybody. Only a handful of people have received these accolades.
If he did, he'd have the accolade. No accolade, no entry tbh.

Sidious trained Maul as a weapon designed to excel in martial ability and nothing else, and not once has he slighted Maul's martial abilities and frequently touted him as an unparalleled ability.

Regardless, people need to understand that because character statements are subjective and interpretable, we have to consider them on case by case basis, we shouldn't make blanket conclusions "well one character said this, and its wrong, so that invalidates everything ever said by any unrelated character!" Hardly I think.

Sure, Sidious is employing hyberbole, but his words carry weight and merit. Same with Malgus.It was a joint effort, hence the craziness. And as previously explained that Jedi was no chump.

I admit defeating Sel-Makor is impressive though, the problem is we really don't know how powerful that avatar was, and to be quite honest, probably had zero lightsaber skills. But what is this lightning feat you refer to?

DarthAnt66
Beni conceded the moment he linked to Jensaarai1 - regardless of the content of the debate itself.

Beniboybling
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Beni conceded the moment he linked to Jensaarai1 - regardless of the content of the debate itself. roll eyes (sarcastic)

DarthAnt66
I'm serious. no expression

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Ant's right tbh

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