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Battle takes place on neutral ground

Team 1 destroys.

Team 1 takes them to the curb

If bloodlusted then yeah team one stomps but if it's their usual selves they'll take their time with it.

Yoda takes this alone.

Team 2 has a fair chance.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Team 2 has a fair chance.

No they don't. Yoda alone would absolutely demolish this team. Luke will very likely get blitzed.

Luke as of this point has woven tapestries of light with his blade and deflected furious hail storms of blaster bolts casually, and was faster than Vader. I have my doubts that Yoda would be blitzing him, especially when he has such heavy support.

I have my doubts Yoda could 'absolutely demolish' Anakin lone.

Yoda isnt soloing this but team 1 wins for sure.

Blitzing is the new black

Originally posted by Sinious
Yoda isnt soloing this but team 1 wins for sure.

The hell he isn't. Kenobi and Luke's reactions aren't so far above the likes of Kolar that they won't get lol blitzed.

Luke gets Saber blitzed. Kenobi and Skywalker get the same treatment from Yoda that Sidious gave the Maul Bros.

So yeah Yoda solos. Adding Mace is serious overkill.

Team 1 ragdolls.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
The hell he isn't. Kenobi and Luke's reactions aren't so far above the likes of Kolar that they won't get lol blitzed.

They're also not so far below Dooku's reactions that they would, especially collectively.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
They're also not so far below Dooku's reactions that they would, especially collectively.


Kenobi's certainly not. But ROTJ Luke? Think he's completely outclassed here through no fault of his own. He was extremely gifted to come as far as he did in such a short period. But in the big scheme of things, he was still at Padawan level.

Padawan level? Lol

He may have technically been a Padawan throughout most of RotJ but he was more skilled than most knights or even masters.

Windu & Yoda.

Originally posted by ares834
Padawan level? Lol

He may have technically been a Padawan throughout most of RotJ but he was more skilled than most knights or even masters.


Based on what? The way he swung his Saber around like a bat? Or based on Lucas calling him only "half" trained?

How about him being an equal to Darth Vader?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
How about him being an equal to Darth Vader?


Lucas says he wasn't.

You have to stop going by Pre-Prequel comics and novels which have been retconned (e.g. Owen is not Ben's brother) and go by all the recent quotes by the creators of official canon.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Urmm.. No. A 16 year old novel made before the Prequels doesn not hold up as evidence against Lucas's own words in the audio commentary of the films post Prequels.

According to Lucas, Luke is not a match for Vader as of ROTJ:

"In coming back to see Yoda we have to figure out Luke's training and the fact that he never finished his training and obviously now he's got a big question he wants answered. There is a point where the hero has to be left on his own 2 feet without anyone there to help him. And you can sort of have him be in a different place for something, but at some point you have to say now all the props have been taken away and he has to face the evil monster alone. In this case the scene established that the evil monster is actually his Father, and he's going to have to do it on his own, and that he's not really equipped to do it. He was too impatient, he didn't finish his studies, and now he's going to be HALF Trained to face a difficult physical and emotional challenge.

George Lucas, Return of the Jedi Audio Commentary.


Dave Filoni who is a creator of a big part of PT and OT era Canon and who worked with and talked to George Lucas daily about the story and characters says Luke was never going to defeat Vader or the Emperor with a Lightsaber. He wasn't trained well enough. His mission was always to bring Vader back to the Lightside through Love.

"I mean, on a basic level at this point he’s so much better trained than Luke could ever be. It’s just an interesting take on what are all these other people that have the Force doing? And how do we not have that interfere with the blinding light, the New Hope that Luke Skywalker becomes? Luke’s mission in the Force is very specific. Learn to be selfless. Selfless enough to save your Father. To realize that you can forgive and redeem. And that’s a bit different than where we’re going with Ezra and Kanan for sure."

http://www.slashfilm.com/star-wars-rebels-interview-dave-filoni/


"And Luke, let's face it, he was never really the best. I have a notion that anyone on the Council could really kick his butt. He had a lot of heart though, right? He had a lot going for him. And almost it was what he didn't know that made him really dangerous to the Emperor, it's just love for his father -- but he wasn't going to take you out with his lightsaber skills, that was for sure. "

http://uk.ign.com/articles/2012/03/21/star-wars-the-clone-wars-looking-back-at-season-4

Dave Filoni has no say on Luke's character. He was linked to 0% percent of it.

The fact he is "not really" ready to fight Darth Vader doesn't change anything. The movie and the comics showed that he was still able to duel him with equal power.
If George Lucas said something along the lines of "he is not yet on Darth Vader's power", that would be a different story obviously. He didn't though.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Dave Filoni has no say on Luke's character. He was linked to 0% percent of it.

The fact he is "not really" ready to fight Darth Vader doesn't change anything. The movie and the comics showed that he was still able to duel him with equal power.
If George Lucas said something along the lines of "he is not yet on Darth Vader's power", that would be a different story obviously. He didn't though.

That's pretty much exactly what Lucas said. You're really stretching here.

And not only is Filoni is a creator of SW canon in both the OT and PT era, but he consulted with Lucas daily for the last 10 years. So he's actually one of the top most knowledgeable people at Lucasfilm when it comes to Official Star Wars Canon.

So I'm afraid his opinion counts for a lot more than whoever wrote the ROTJ Comic and Novel 25 years ago.

Your the one stretching it bro. "Not really equipped"=/="weaker."
I can be "not really equipped" for an exam, yet still get a good grade on it.
Even Palpatine in Dark Empire Audio Drama praises Luke for beating Darth Vader.


Except when they talked, it was concerning The Clone Wars, an era with really nothing to do with Luke Skywalker. It's not like they talked about Return of the Jedi or anything.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
That's pretty much exactly what Lucas said. You're really stretching here.

And not only is Filoni is a creator of SW canon in both the OT and PT era, but he consulted with Lucas daily for the last 10 years. So he's actually one of the top most knowledgeable people at Lucasfilm when it comes to Official Star Wars Canon.

So I'm afraid his opinion counts for a lot more than whoever wrote the ROTJ Comic and Novel 25 years ago.

I never really understood those quotes. They do not make any sense. In ESB Vader and Yoda clearly state that Luke is not a Jedi and is not ready to face Vader. In ROTJ they clearly state that Luke is ready and that his skills are complete.

Either GL and Filoni do not know what they hell they are saying or they have retcon the whole scripts from ESB and ROTJ.

Yoda: No! Unfortunate that you rushed to face him... that incomplete was your training. That... not ready for the burden were you.
Yoda: No more training do you require. Already know you, that which you need.
Luke: Then I am a Jedi.
Yoda: No. Not yet. One thing remains. Vader. You must confront Vader. Then, only then, a Jedi will you be. And confront him you will.
Darth Vader: I see you have constructed a new light saber. Your skills are complete. Indeed you are powerful as the Emperor has foreseen.

My take: Luke was not a fully trained Jedi, however he had master the fundamentals of being a Jedi and using the force to a degree that he was now able to face Vader. Most of all he had the raw power to face Vader with the amount of training that he had. Raw power that he was able to tap into.

Yoda solos

Zonakin solos everyone on this field

Originally posted by Board Walker
Zonakin solos everyone on this field

Nope.

"Shut the **** up!" is the first response that comes to my mind every time some one utters the word "Zonakin."

Originally posted by DarthAnt66

Your the one stretching it bro. "Not really equipped"=/="weaker."
I can be "not really equipped" for an exam, yet still get a good grade on it.


LOL What do you think "Not really equipped" means? You think it means he was missing a Lightsaber or something?

The fact that he later states he's only HALF TRAINED should make the context completely clear for you, if it wasn't already.

If you're not equipped to take an exam it's unlikely you will do well.

Stop stretching his meaning. It's pretty clear cut what he's saying there.



Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Even Palpatine in Dark Empire Audio Drama praises Luke for beating Darth Vader.

Which is exactly why the previous EU has been written out of official canon now under Disney and given the separate "Legends" title. Because there were simply too many contradictions. Official canon and the statements from the Creators of Official Canon comes first bro, even if you insist on sticking with quotes from Legends.



Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Except when they talked, it was concerning The Clone Wars, an era with really nothing to do with Luke Skywalker. It's not like they talked about Return of the Jedi or anything.


In one of those quotes he was talking about Luke's mission in the OT He's talked about how TCW effects the overall Star Wars saga including the OT plenty and talked about Luke's "true mission" plenty.

Him being half trained is completely irrelevant.
Revan was only a padawan when he killed Malak.
Kun was only a padawan when he beat Vodo and left the Order.
Anakin was only a padawan in AotC when he fought Dooku.

All these characters would be half-trained, pretty much.
---- ---- ----
"Not really equipped" is incredibly vague. It can be referring to either the "physical" or "emotional" challenges. Maybe both.
Luke overcame his emotional challenges, despite briefly giving into temptation. You could classify this as "not really" since that phrase isn't a completely declaration.
In terms of the physical challenge, numerous sources suggest they fought as equals, with Luke gaining the advantage thanks to his rage.
"Not really" expresses polite doubt. It is neither a definite "yes" nor "no". It's way to vague to automatically retcon so many sources, even if you like it or not.


Ah, so you want to talk about canon quotes then? Very well.

"On the Death Star, Luke and Vader are locked in battle. Vader tempts Luke, saying that if he will not be turned to the dark side, perhaps his sister --Leia -- will. Luke surges with the Force, gaining an advantage on Vader and cutting off the Sith Lord's hand.

"When Vader suggested that Leia could be turned to evil, Luke embraced his rage and pummeled his father relentlessly -- giving the Emperor exactly what he wanted. But before he delivered the killing blow, Luke paused, remembering his teachings."

"The Emperor taunted and tempted Luke, leading to a final duel between Vader and his son. Giving in to his hate, Luke overpowered Vader, cutting off his hand and was poised to deliver the killing blow."

"Luke gave in, leading to a duel with Vader that saw him nearly kill his father in anger"

--Star Wars.com: Databanks


He says he would never beat Vader with a lightsaber, yet we see Luke clearly beat Vader...with a lightsaber.
http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-16-2014/c4A8IL.gif

---- ---- ----
The second Dave quote is said the same about Grievous and the Jedi Council, and that any Jedi on the Council could beat Grievous. Sadly enough:
http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-16-2014/MUzKAB.gif
http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-16-2014/NdZ5_H.gif
http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-16-2014/F9fz8L.gif
He was also beating Obi-Wan Kenobi in this fight: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ja7rgrRNHU

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Yoda takes this alone.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Him being half trained is completely irrelevant.
Revan was only a padawan when he killed Malak.
Kun was only a padawan when he beat Vodo and left the Order.
Anakin was only a padawan in AotC when he fought Dooku.

All these characters would be half-trained, pretty much.




Didn't Kun beat an Unarmed Vodo, lashing out at him with 2 Lightsabers?

Anakin got his ass kicked by Dooku in AOTC. Don't know anything about Revan and really don't care.

---- ---- ----
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
"Not really equipped" is incredibly vague. It can be referring to either the "physical" or "emotional" challenges. Maybe both.
Luke overcame his emotional challenges, despite briefly giving into temptation. You could classify this as "not really" since that phrase isn't a completely declaration.
In terms of the physical challenge, numerous sources suggest they fought as equals, with Luke gaining the advantage thanks to his rage.
"Not really" expresses polite doubt. It is neither a definite "yes" nor "no". It's way to vague to automatically retcon so many sources, even if you like it or not.


You can stretch the meaning as much as you want to mean whatever you want. Doesn't take away that Lucas is flat out saying there that Luke doesn't have enough training to compete with Vader.


Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Ah, so you want to talk about canon quotes then? Very well.

"On the Death Star, Luke and Vader are locked in battle. Vader tempts Luke, saying that if he will not be turned to the dark side, perhaps his sister --Leia -- will. Luke surges with the Force, gaining an advantage on Vader and cutting off the Sith Lord's hand.

"When Vader suggested that Leia could be turned to evil, Luke embraced his rage and pummeled his father relentlessly -- giving the Emperor exactly what he wanted. But before he delivered the killing blow, Luke paused, remembering his teachings."

"The Emperor taunted and tempted Luke, leading to a final duel between Vader and his son. Giving in to his hate, Luke overpowered Vader, cutting off his hand and was poised to deliver the killing blow."

"Luke gave in, leading to a duel with Vader that saw him nearly kill his father in anger"

--Star Wars.com: Databanks

And which of those quotes is made by a Creator of "Official Canon."

Those quotes have all been thrown into the Legends material. And I'm completely fine discussing Legends material, as long as you accept precedence must be given to Lucas and Offical creators of Canon.


Originally posted by DarthAnt66
He says he would never beat Vader with a lightsaber, yet we see Luke clearly beat Vader...with a lightsaber.


Yeah because his Dad didn't want to hurt him. Just wanted Luke to join him. "Your thoughts betray you Father. I feel the good in you, the conflict."




---- ---- ----
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The second Dave quote is said the same about Grievous and the Jedi Council, and that any Jedi on the Council could beat Grievous. Sadly enough:

He said Greivous isn't a match for any Jedi Council Master under fair circumstances. That fight wasn't fair, because all the Jedi (were stated in the next episode) to have been exhausted from the previous battle. Which is when Grievous will take advantage.

And btw the Clone War mini was revamped by TCW series anyway.


Originally posted by DarthAnt66
He was also beating Obi-Wan Kenobi in this fight: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ja7rgrRNHU


Wow talk about selective vision. At 2:35 Kenobi soundly defeats Grievous who then runs for his life. In a fight which Grievous began with the aid of 2 Magnaguards, and then fought Kenobi in a cramped space which benefits Grievous. And still Kenobi clearly won.

No one ever said Grievous can't even land a hit on a Jedi Master, or that he can't defeat one under "UNFAIR" Circumstances.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
They're also not so far below Dooku's reactions that they would, especially collectively.

Kenobi can likely not get blitzed in the opening moves, Luke...not so much, especially when Filoni puts him below the Councilors. He's likely at or below Grievous in raw sabers.

And yes Filoni is a canon authority. Given that TCWs is basically G-canon now his statements are second only to Lucas'. I lol at people who take Drew Karpshyan's statements as evidence but don't lean credence to a man who's for all intents and purposes George Lucas for a G-canon project.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Kenobi can likely not get blitzed in the opening moves, Luke...not so much, especially when Filoni puts him below the Councilors. He's likely at or below Grievous in raw sabers.
Please don't tell me you have every Jedi Councilor above Luke and Grievous.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Please don't tell me you have every Jedi Councilor above Luke and Grievous.

Every one? No. But Agen Kolar has the feats to put them both down. He's like a more badass aggressive version of Eeth Koth, who put Grievous on his ass with a broken arm.

lolwut? Vodo had his Force-enhanced stick.

http://i39.servimg.com/u/f39/17/73/92/12/scans_10.jpg

He obviously isn't if I could form an argument and then all you could say is "stop stretching the meaning" .


Are you new here or something? All those quotes are under Disney's new canon. None of them are Legends.


Once again, He says he would never beat Vader with a lightsaber, yet we see Luke clearly beat Vader...with a lightsaber.


Very well then, though they could be exhausted for a year and that would not equate to the slaughter they received.

Grievous crushed the Durge/Ventress duo (scans are in order):
http://i58.servimg.com/u/f58/18/49/83/67/star_w10.jpg
http://i58.servimg.com/u/f58/18/49/83/67/star_w11.jpg
http://i58.servimg.com/u/f58/18/49/83/67/star_w12.jpg
http://i58.servimg.com/u/f58/18/49/83/67/star_w16.jpg
http://i58.servimg.com/u/f58/18/49/83/67/star_w13.jpg
http://i58.servimg.com/u/f58/18/49/83/67/star_w14.jpg
http://i58.servimg.com/u/f58/18/49/83/67/star_w15.jpg
http://i58.servimg.com/u/f58/18/49/83/67/star_w17.jpg
http://i58.servimg.com/u/f58/18/49/83/67/star_w19.jpg
http://i58.servimg.com/u/f58/18/49/83/67/star_w20.jpg
http://i58.servimg.com/u/f58/18/49/83/67/star_w21.jpg
http://i58.servimg.com/u/f58/18/49/83/67/star_w22.jpg
Note: This fight is also mentioned in TCSWE as well.

Grievous, before the battle was reconnected, utterly trashed Adi Gallia:
http://i39.servimg.com/u/f39/17/73/92/12/grievo10.jpg
http://i39.servimg.com/u/f39/17/73/92/12/grievo11.jpg


Grievous is able to hold his own against Mace Windu in Coruscant:
""Grievous," Mace grumbled. Kit glanced at him. "Here we go again."

Hurrying into the vestibule between the two lead cars, they launched themselves to the roof. Three cars distant marched General Grievous and two of his elite droids, their capes snapping behind them in the wind, pulse-tipped batons angled across their barrel chests. Farther back, clamped by animal-like claws to the roof of the train, was the gunboat from which the frightful trio had been released.

Without pausing, Grievous drew two lightsabers from inside his billowing cloak. By the time they were ignited, Mace was already on and all over the cyborg, batting away at the two blades, swinging low at Grievous's artificial legs, thrusting at his skeletal face. The lightsabers thrummed and hissed, meeting one another in bursts of dazzling light. In a corner of Mace's mind he wondered to which Jedi Grievous's blades had belonged. Just as the Force was keeping Mace from being blown from the mag-lev's roof, magnetism of some sort was keeping the general fastened in place. For the cyborg, though, the coherence hindered as much as it helped, whereas Mace never remained in one place for very long. Again and again the three blades joined, in snarling attacks and parries.

As Mace already knew from Ki-Adi-Mundi and Shaak Ti, Grievous was well trained in the Jedi arts. He could recognize the hand of Dooku in the general's training and technique. His strikes were as forceful as any Mace had ever had to counter, and his speed was astonishing. But he didn't know Vaapad - - the technique of dark flirtation in which Mace excelled. To the rear of the car, where Grievous's pair of MagnaGuards had made the mistake of pitting themselves against Kit Fisto, the Nautolan's blade was a cyclone of blazing blue light. Resistant to the energy outpourings of a lightsaber, the phrik alloy staffs were potent weapons, but like any weapon they needed to find their target, and Kit simply wasn't allowing that.

In moves a Twi'lek dancer might envy, he spun around the guards, claiming a limb from both with each rotation: left legs, right arms, right legs... The speed of the train saw to the rest, ultimately whisking the droids into the canyon like insects blown from the windscreen of a speeder bike. The loss of his confederates was noted by whatever computers were slaved to Grievous's organic brain, but the loss neither distracted nor slowed him. His sole setting was attack. Successful at analyzing Mace's lightsaber style, those same computers suggested that Grievous alter his stance and posture, along with the angle of his parries, ripostes, and thrusts.

The result wasn't Vaapad, but it was close enough, and Mace wasn't interested in prolonging the contest any longer than necessary. Crouching low, he angled the blade downward and slashed, guiding it through the roof of the car, perpendicular to Grievous's stalwart advance. Mace saw by the surprised look in the cyborg's reptilian eyes that, for all his strength, dexterity, and resolve, the living part of him wasn't always in perfect sync with his alloy servos.

Clearly, Grievous - - onetime courageous commander of sentient troops - - realized what Mace had done and wanted to sidestep, where General Grievous - - current commander of droids and other war machines - - wanted nothing more than to impale Mace with lunging thrusts of the paired blades. Slipping into the gap made by Mace's saber, Grievous's left talon lost magnetic purchase on the roof, and the general faltered. Mace came out of his crouch prepared to drive his sword into Grievous's guts, but some last-instant firing of the general's cybersynapses compelled the cyborg's torso through a swift half twist that would have sent Mace's head hurtling into the canyon had the maneuver prevailed.

Instead Mace leapt backward, out of the range of the slicing blades, and Force-pushed outward, just at the instant of Grievous's single misstep. Off the side of the car the general went, twisting and turning as he fell, Mace trying to track the general's contorted plunge, but unsuccessfully. Had he fallen into the canyon? Had he managed to dig his duranium claws into the side of the car or grab hold of the mag-lev rail itself?"


Ah, and Grievous is able to hard-press even Count Dooku:
"And as to the general's combat skills, few, if any, Jedi would be capable of defeating him. There had been moments during the extensive combat sessions when even Dooku had been hard-pressed to outduel the cyborg."


Nah, the Battle of Hypori is still canonical.


Are you serious? Grievous was bluntly pushing Kenobi backwards, in fact Kenobi runs away from him at 2:24. Kenobi getting a cheap-shot by throwing a droid at him doesn't equate to a victory.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Kenobi can likely not get blitzed in the opening moves, Luke...not so much, especially when Filoni puts him below the Councilors. He's likely at or below Grievous in raw sabers.

And yes Filoni is a canon authority. Given that TCWs is basically G-canon now his statements are second only to Lucas'. I lol at people who take Drew Karpshyan's statements as evidence but don't lean credence to a man who's for all intents and purposes George Lucas for a G-canon project.




And he's still creating new Canon with Rebels. And of all the Rebels creators he's the one whose considered the Expert in Star Wars canon due to his decade of work with George Lucas on TCW.

He's also the main one of the Rebels creators who has regular meetings with creators of the films and other new SW Canon to make sure there's no conflict or contradiction.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66

lolwut? Vodo had his Force-enhanced stick.

Yep that's how I remember it. Kun's 2 Lightsabers vs Vodo's 1 stick.

It was clear he wasn't a match for Vodo yet under fair circumstances.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
http://i39.servimg.com/u/f39/17/73/92/12/scans_10.jpg


Is this a joke?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
He obviously isn't if I could form an argument and then all you could say is "stop stretching the meaning" .


He says Luke isn't fully equipped to tackle Vader because he never completed his training.

You're making that line mean just about anything you want. except it's literal meaning, which was Luke was no match for Vader due to his lack of training.

It's not rocket science.


Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Are you new here or something? All those quotes are under Disney's new canon. None of them are Legends.

When was that databank updated? And who was it updated by?




Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Once again, He says he would never beat Vader with a lightsaber, yet we see Luke clearly beat Vader...with a lightsaber.

Urrm... Because Vader allows him to. Was Vader there to test his own powers or to turn Luke to the Darkside? I don't see what's so difficult to understand. It seems you lack the concept of proper context.




Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Very well then, though they could be exhausted for a year and that would not equate to the slaughter they received.


Grievous crushed the Durge/Ventress duo (scans are in order):


Revamped by TCW where Ventress beats Grievous alone, in pure Sabers, without even resorting to TK. And Filoni confirms Grievous isn't match for a Jedi of Ventress's caliber. Next..



Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Grievous, before the battle was reconnected, utterly trashed Adi Gallia:

You've already conceded it's retconned. Next..



Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Grievous is able to hold his own against Mace Windu in Coruscant:
""Grievous," Mace grumbled. Kit glanced at him. "Here we go again."

Mace won.

Grievous put up a good fight once in what wasn't exactly a normal terrain.

So what?

Grievous canonically is no match for Maul, forget Mace. Heck he's no match for Ventress.

So what are you trying to prove? How does any of this negate the fact that the Creators of Official Canon are all saying ROTJ Luke was no match for Vader?!





Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Ah, and Grievous is able to hard-press even Count Dooku:
"And as to the general's combat skills, few, if any, Jedi would be capable of defeating him. There had been moments during the extensive combat sessions when even Dooku had been hard-pressed to outduel the cyborg."


Nah, the Battle of Hypori is still canonical.


Read above. And Dooku listed a load of Council members who Grievous would lose to. But IIRC he didn't list Fisto who spanked Grievous's butt in "Lair of Grievous."

And when Dooku thought he beat Fisto, he said something like "You beat a true Jedi Master. Now that's impressive." To which Grievous responded... "Urm well no"




Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Are you serious? Grievous was bluntly pushing Kenobi backwards, in fact Kenobi runs away from him at 2:24. Kenobi getting a cheap-shot by throwing a droid at him doesn't equate to a victory.

LOL You're just changing the meaning of everything and seeing what you want to, and reading what you want to. So I'm done.

Kenobi backing off in the middle fight in a cramped space just to re-engage him a few seconds later is not Losing a frigging fight.

And LOL at cheap shot. So it's cheap to throw objects at your opponent? So I guess Dooku is continually throwing cheap shots.

You don't think it was cheap of Grievous to fight Kenobi with the aid of a Magnaguard but you think Kenobi using the Force on him when stuck with a giant like Grievous in a cramped space is somehow cheap?

Go throw your "Grievous WON, even though he got battered and ran for his life.." shit someplace else. I'm done with your Grievous and ROTJ Luke Wankery.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Please don't tell me you have every Jedi Councilor above Luke and Grievous.


Btw where's this quote that Filoni states that ANY JEDI COUNCIL MEMBER would beat Grievous. Because I can't find it.

Not that I'd have a problem with it considering Fisto and Koth have both battered him.

But I'm pretty sure that quote doesn't even exist. Just a lame attempt to try and deny that Filoni is a canon source as far as I can tell.

What do you mean "by under fair circumstances?"
You do know Vodo's stick is the weapon he uses?

I accept your concession. The comics are a canonical source in the Legends community.

How the **** does "not fully equipped" translate to "not match?"


It was updated on early July by the starwars.com team. Many suspect Leland Chee helped work on it (since that's his job).


Just read your own posts before you decide to post them to save yourself the humiliation.
Vader allows Luke to utterly beat him onto the ground and chop off his arm? What the ****?


Actually no. That battle still holds strong in the official Legends community as well. It was the battle where Grievous was awarded the title of Supreme Commander over the droids. The battle is also mentioned in the The Clone Wars Campaign Guide, The Essential Atlas, Star Wars Insider 86, and General Grievous' old Databank along some others.



I see you didn't even read what I provided:

Grievous counters all of Mace's first assault:
"By the time they were ignited, Mace was already on and all over the cyborg, batting away at the two blades, swinging low at Grievous's artificial legs, thrusting at his skeletal face. The lightsabers thrummed and hissed, meeting one another in bursts of dazzling light."

The train gave Mace a terrain advantage, not Grievous:
"Just as the Force was keeping Mace from being blown from the mag-lev's roof, magnetism of some sort was keeping the general fastened in place. For the cyborg, though, the coherence hindered as much as it helped, whereas Mace never remained in one place for very long."

Mace Windu won due to a single misstep of Grievous, not through superior combat abilities:
"Instead Mace leapt backward, out of the range of the slicing blades, and Force-pushed outward, just at the instant of Grievous's single misstep. Off the side of the car the general went, twisting and turning as he fell."


Fisto was able to "spank" Grievous thanks to his form being specialized in fighting numerous attackers (in this circumstance, blades).
Also, that fight was years before the duels that Grievous was able to press Dooku in. He obviously improved.


Kenobi throwing a droid at Grievous is the definition of a cheap shot. I would be surprised that if anyone on this forum disagrees (besides you.)
I don't understand what you have against Grievous or Luke though, but it is quite annoying. Considering this wank though is...laughable. I seen boards that put Luke above Mace.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Grievous crushed the Durge/Ventress duo (scans are in order):
http://i58.servimg.com/u/f58/18/49/83/67/star_w10.jpg
http://i58.servimg.com/u/f58/18/49/83/67/star_w11.jpg
http://i58.servimg.com/u/f58/18/49/83/67/star_w12.jpg
http://i58.servimg.com/u/f58/18/49/83/67/star_w16.jpg
http://i58.servimg.com/u/f58/18/49/83/67/star_w13.jpg
http://i58.servimg.com/u/f58/18/49/83/67/star_w14.jpg
http://i58.servimg.com/u/f58/18/49/83/67/star_w15.jpg
http://i58.servimg.com/u/f58/18/49/83/67/star_w17.jpg
http://i58.servimg.com/u/f58/18/49/83/67/star_w19.jpg
http://i58.servimg.com/u/f58/18/49/83/67/star_w20.jpg
http://i58.servimg.com/u/f58/18/49/83/67/star_w21.jpg
http://i58.servimg.com/u/f58/18/49/83/67/star_w22.jpg
Note: This fight is also mentioned in TCSWE as well.


I'm not sure what fight you read, but he very much did not crush them. They kicked his ass for most of that fight. And that ending feels forced, why does Ventress just stand there while he's unarmed and down and let him get up and grab her? It's stupid.

They only get the advantage when Durge is able to stun/incapacitate Grievous. Once he is freed, he utterly trashes Durge.
While Ventress is able to push back Grievous in an assault, Grievous was also able to throw her against a wall as well, as well as disarming/besting her.

You mean, after Durge punches him through a giant Dooku bust?

It's not that Grievous beat her, it's that at the end she seems to stand there and let him beat her.

Durge was able to punch Grievous thanks to Ventress hitting him directly before him. It all linked back to Grievous getting stunned in the first place. Later then Grievous two-shotted Durge.

What? They were fighting to see who would be the Surpreme Commander of the Droid Army. And Dooku also congratulates Grievous for his victory. She didn't "let him win."

I have additional scans in English however. Hold on.

Grievous beats up Ventress and Durge from the shadows:
http://i39.servimg.com/u/f39/17/73/92/12/star_w27.jpg
http://i39.servimg.com/u/f39/17/73/92/12/star_w28.jpg
http://i39.servimg.com/u/f39/17/73/92/12/star_w29.jpg
http://i39.servimg.com/u/f39/17/73/92/12/star_w30.jpg
http://i39.servimg.com/u/f39/17/73/92/12/star_w31.jpg
http://i39.servimg.com/u/f39/17/73/92/12/star_w32.jpg
http://i39.servimg.com/u/f39/17/73/92/12/star_w33.jpg
http://i39.servimg.com/u/f39/17/73/92/12/star_w34.jpg
http://i39.servimg.com/u/f39/17/73/92/12/star_w35.jpg
http://i39.servimg.com/u/f39/17/73/92/12/star_w36.jpg

Grievous and Dooku discussing afterwards (scans in order):
http://i39.servimg.com/u/f39/17/73/92/12/star_w40.jpg
http://i39.servimg.com/u/f39/17/73/92/12/star_w37.jpg
http://i39.servimg.com/u/f39/17/73/92/12/star_w38.jpg
http://i39.servimg.com/u/f39/17/73/92/12/star_w39.jpg

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Durge was able to punch Grievous thanks to Ventress hitting him directly before him. It all linked back to Grievous getting stunned in the first place. Later then Grievous two-shotted Durge.

What? They were fighting to see who would be the Surpreme Commander of the Droid Army. And Dooku also congratulates Grievous for his victory. She didn't "let him win."

Wow, that's all so unfair. I mean, two allies actually fighting at the same time??? And how dare Durge stun Grievous. That doesn't prove or indicate anything about whether Grievous kicked their ass or not. Clearly he still wrecked them because they only did well by working together and managing to stun him. What a joke.

I know she didn't literally let him win in the story, my complaint was that it damn sure looked like it. PIS, Ventress has him down then lets him stand up again and grab her instead of continuing to hold him down with the Force or hacking at him while he's trying to get back up or fighting back in any way.

Meh, stuns are pretty lame. You saw what Grievous could do to Durge without it...a two-shot slaughterhouse. That, in my book, is a stomp.

Probably just bad illustration, otherwise Dooku wouldn't have been so impressed over his victory.

Durge still managed to tag him with his stun thing. It's not like it was a cheap shot or anything.

Or the story was forced.

No, that's not my point. My point was saying that Grievous was losing yet ignoring that factor is lame.

Still canon.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Wow, that's all so unfair. I mean, two allies actually fighting at the same time??? And how dare Durge stun Grievous. That doesn't prove or indicate anything about whether Grievous kicked their ass or not. Clearly he still wrecked them because they only did well by working together and managing to stun him. What a joke.

I know she didn't literally let him win in the story, my complaint was that it damn sure looked like it. PIS, Ventress has him down then lets him stand up again and grab her instead of continuing to hold him down with the Force or hacking at him while he's trying to get back up or fighting back in any way.

Grievous is ridiculously fast though. More likely he outright blitzed her.

+ Grievous wasn't even going all out. He had yet to pull his trump card.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
No, that's not my point. My point was saying that Grievous was losing yet ignoring that factor is lame.

Still canon.

It doesn't matter that they stunned him to get him on the back foot, they still got him on the back foot and beat his ass before he won.

Still stupid.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Grievous is ridiculously fast though. More likely he outright blitzed her.

+ Grievous wasn't even going all out. He had yet to pull his trump card.

She's reacting to him and trying to back up. It's like he just psyched her out.

Originally posted by Nephthys
It doesn't matter that they stunned him to get him on the back foot, they still got him on the back foot and beat his ass before he won.

Still stupid.



She's reacting to him and trying to back up. It's like he just psyched her out.

I'm trying here man.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66


Still canon.


No it's not. You need to update yourself on the new canon rules.

This however is Official Canon:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZF97aJO7MuM

As you can see, in official canon Grievous needs help from his army to take down Ventress. In a one on one though, he's getting his arms chopped off.

I meant Legends. Look at what forum you are in: "Star Wars: Literature & Expanded Universe."
We still use the old ranking systems here, and that battle is C-Canon. You are dismissed.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I meant Legends. Look at what forum you are in: "Star Wars: Literature & Expanded Universe."
We still use the old ranking systems here, and that battle is C-Canon. You are dismissed.

Firstly this is an EU section, not Legends, so unless there is a character in the OP which only exists in Legends, or unless the OP states Legends only, then the first assumption is Official Canon only, since Disney/Lucasfilm has made it quite clear what is Canon and what's not now. (Which I know you're seriously butthurt about because you're clearly still clinging to Legends like it's Gospel, and that's where all your so called "Evidence" comes from).

Secondly, even within Legends TCW is T-Canon which is above all other canon except the movies. Which means Grievous Loses to Ventress. And You Lose to Me. Now GTFO here.