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Force, sabers, all out

*ROTJ Vader

*ROTS Dooku

Team 2. Heavily because Windu.

Team 2.

Team 1

Team 1.

Could go either way really, depending on who takes who.

If Mace can compete with Vader long enough for Anakin to MAYBE take out Dooku, then they could win.

If the Count engages Mace, Vader beats Anakin solidly and then they kill Mace.

I have no doubt that Vader could defeat Anakin. He'd be missing a few appendages though.

Originally posted by NewGuy01


I'm sorry, I forgot ROTS Anakin is superior to suit Vader.

Up for debate. They are close though.

ROTJ Vader > ROTS Anakin

Yeah I agree with that

He's not solidly above Anakin. Nowhere near enough to get out of that fight and still contribute to the next.

His saber skills may have decreased after Mustafar for some time but he improved himself in time and makes up for it with experience. Also he became more powerful in the force by a margin.

Pretty much everything about Vader dropped after Mustafar with ANH Vader just getting back to the same level. And while he may have increased in skill and power afterwards, he still isn't solidly above Anakin. They're still pretty comparable.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Pretty much everything about Vader dropped after Mustafar with ANH Vader just getting back to the same level. And while he may have increased in skill and power afterwards, he still isn't solidly above Anakin. They're still pretty comparable.

ANH Vader and ROTJ Vader are sure comparable as I've never denied that. However, by your own admittance, there is an increase of skill and power which ultimately means ROTJ Vader > ROTS Anakin.

As for the topic, I don't think this should be determined by matching opponents. Both sides would be constantly changing opponents and the overall power and teamwork capabilities should matter most.

Anakin is the most inexperienced one here and he is terrible when fighting as a duo as seen many times in AOTC, TCW and ROTS. On the other hand, Windu>Vader>Anakin>Dooku which means team 2 is more powerful overall.

I think this could go either ways.

Originally posted by Sinious
ANH Vader and ROTJ Vader are sure comparable as I've never denied that. However, by your own admittance, there is an increase of skill and power which ultimately means ROTJ Vader > ROTS Anakin.
Of course RotJ Vader is above Anakin. Vader however is not solidly defeating him.

As to the rest, I doubt Mace is above RotS Vader in actual skill, experience means a lot less when it comes to powerhouses. And where is it said that Anakin is awful in a duo? In the novel, the Kenobi Skywalker team is said to be unstoppable. Literally everything else in the Order pales in comparison to their team.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
In the novel, the Kenobi Skywalker team is said to be unstoppable. Literally everything else in the Order pales in comparison to their team.
Too bad TCW really didn't hold true to that.

Eh, there's enough time for them to shape up.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Too bad TCW really didn't hold true to that.



Also, Dooku b****slapped them together and Anakin performed much better on his own.

Dooku has shown on a few occasions that he can defeat Windu.

Originally posted by Sinious
Windu>Vader>Anakin>Dooku

Originally posted by Sinious


Also, Dooku b****slapped them together and Anakin performed much better on his own.
What do you mean? If you mean after Kenobi was incapacitated, that was because Anakin was afraid of Obi-Wan dying. Before Dooku actually brought in help because he was afraid of the duo defeating him.

The Anakin Kenobi duo always underperforms in TCW for some maddeningly annoying reason.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
The Anakin Kenobi duo always underperforms in TCW for some maddeningly annoying reason.

That and Dooku is badass.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
That and Dooku is badass.
It's not just against Dooku.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
It's not just against Dooku.

Oh I know. But their performances against Ventress and Savage were clearly not all out.

Originally posted by Sinious
On the other hand, Windu>Vader>Anakin>Dooku which means team 2 is more powerful overall.



No way is Dooku bottom of that list.

Anakin has the most raw power, but is also the most inexperienced and Inconsistent, which is why he's lose a majority against any of the other 3.

Out of the other 3, Windu has the best powerset to fight Sidious, and is the only one capable of competing against the most powerful sith lord. But that doesn't put him above the other 2. And it's not the all and end all. If it was Maul would not be capable of engaging Mace, let alone Mace and Aayla Secura.

Windu and Dooku have actually been named as equals by countless sources.

It goes like this roughly.

ROTJ Vader>/=Dooku=Mace>/=ROTS Anakin>ESB Vader>ANH Vader

Originally posted by Lord Stark
It goes like this roughly.

ROTJ Vader>/=Dooku=Mace>/=ROTS Anakin>ESB Vader>ANH Vader

Agreed.

Dooku was still more powerful than Anakin in TCW / RotS. It just his weaknesses happened, lets say Dooku wins 7-10 against RotS Anakin.

Dooku also beats Obi-Wan 10-10, because Obi-Wan has nothing to threat Dooku's makashi.

And Obi-Wan vs. Anakin, I would say 6-10 Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan's defensive soresu style is the true answer for Anakin's agressive djem-so. Also Obi-Wan has more experience, and can use the environment (sokan mastery).

He was not more powerful in ROTS.

Originally posted by carthage
He was not more powerful in ROTS.

Power is vague term. In terms of Raw Power and Strength ROTS Anakin was probably greater than Dooku, Windu or Suited Vader.

Still I think Marco's right that Dooku would beat ROTS Anakin for a majority. Down to skill, experience, mastery of the force and generally being more consistent. Don't forget it was ROTS Anakin who was kick slammed and floored by Count Dooku and left helpless for a good 10 seconds.

And it was ROTS Anakin who couldn't beat Obi-Wan.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Power is vague term. In terms of Raw Power and Strength ROTS Anakin was probably greater than Dooku, Windu or Suited Vader.

Still I think Marco's right that Dooku would beat ROTS Anakin for a majority. Down to skill, experience, mastery of the force and generally being more consistent. Don't forget it was ROTS Anakin who was kick slammed and floored by Count Dooku and left helpless for a good 10 seconds.

And it was ROTS Anakin who couldn't beat Obi-Wan.

I'm talking about physical power, also in terms of raw power int he force Anakin is more powerful.

Dooku is only more skilled, but that obviously meant little as ROTS Anakin smashed him into the ground

Originally posted by carthage
I'm talking about physical power, also in terms of raw power int he force Anakin is more powerful.

Dooku is only more skilled, but that obviously meant little as ROTS Anakin smashed him into the ground

Dooku's skill and mastery with both the blade and the force is above ROTS Skywalker. He still takes a majority against him, considering up until the last 10 seconds of the duel Dooku was controlling that fight. Hell moments before he's disarmed we see him easily block Anakin's blow one-handed with a grin on his face.

Dooku is not only more skilled also more powerful in the force than pre-suit Vader / RotS Anakin.

Count was able to force push and choke Obi-Wan, while Anakin didn't do anything.

http://i760.photobucket.com/albums/xx244/Karasakal/obi-wananakinforce_zps7b002efe.gif

Originally posted by Marco1907
Dooku is not only more skilled also more powerful in the force than Anakin.

Count was able to force push and choke Obi-Wan, while Anakin didn't do anything.

http://i760.photobucket.com/albums/xx244/Karasakal/obi-wananakinforce_zps7b002efe.gif


Anakin at his peak lost to Kenobi. He's clearly not even in the same league as the others in this thread.

Originally posted by carthage


Dooku is only more skilled, but that obviously meant little as ROTS Anakin smashed him into the ground

Actually it was Dooku who smashed Anakin to the ground first. Whilst he was simultaneously stomping Kenobi. You know the Kenobi Skywalker couldn't defeat.

I doubt, that ROTJ Vader is stronger then Mace or Dooku. According to Lucas, Anakin during ROTS was in his prime as lightsaber duelist. Vader is far more experienced and more skilled with the Force, but unfortunately we never - as I remember - seen him being able to break Force guard of some stronger fighters. And Anakin can defend himself against TK atacks really well.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
No way is Dooku bottom of that list.

Anakin has the most raw power, but is also the most inexperienced and Inconsistent, which is why he's lose a majority against any of the other 3.

Out of the other 3, Windu has the best powerset to fight Sidious, and is the only one capable of competing against the most powerful sith lord. But that doesn't put him above the other 2. And it's not the all and end all. If it was Maul would not be capable of engaging Mace, let alone Mace and Aayla Secura.

Windu and Dooku have actually been named as equals by countless sources.

Well there is a constant inaccuracy in Star Wars power levels. They literally perform differently in every single fight. Yet Anakin has dominated Count Dooku in ROTS so I don't think Anakin's style being Dooku's kryptonite thing is enough to justify his loss. Windu is the second most powerful jedi of the order during ROTS and GL himself stated that you have to be Windu's or Yoda's level to keep up with Sidious in a duel. Since it is clear that there is a gap of power level between Vader and Anakin, I reached the conclusion that Widnu>Vader>Anakin>Dooku would be the most logical way to place them.

Originally posted by Sinious
Well there is a constant inaccuracy in Star Wars power levels. They literally perform differently in every single fight. Yet Anakin has dominated Count Dooku in ROTS so I don't think Anakin's style being Dooku's kryptonite thing is enough to justify his loss. Windu is the second most powerful jedi of the order during ROTS and GL himself stated that you have to be Windu's or Yoda's level to keep up with Sidious in a duel. Since it is clear that there is a gap of power level between Vader and Anakin, I reached the conclusion that Widnu>Vader>Anakin>Dooku would be the most logical way to place them.

There's a hitch in your theory, that is every canon source has stated that Dooku is equal to Mace, if anything it edges towards the Count being stronger.

Well then this means Dooku could keep up with the Emperor and would give Sidious a hard time in a duel.

Also I always thought Dooku being Windu's equal applied to the clone wars era?

Originally posted by Sinious
Well then this means Dooku could keep up with the Emperor and would give Sidious a hard time in a duel.

Also I always thought Dooku being Windu's equal applied to the clone wars era?

I haven't really heard a sound argument for Windu gaining any larger powerboost than Dooku would have from the DS boost. Also Dark Rendezvous which occurs mere months before ROTS states the Count and Mace are equals.

Like I said, shouldn't this mean that Dooku would be a challenge for Sidious where we all know thats not true?

Originally posted by Sinious
Like I said, shouldn't this mean that Dooku would be a challenge for Sidious where we all know thats not true?

No because A>B>C logic doesn't work in Star Wars.

And Sidious is a nightmare for a fighter like Dooku for the same reason Zonakin is. He's got raw power and speed out the wazzuu and unlike Skywalker he's got the mastery to back it up.

Mace on the otherhand is equipped with the form to take that raw power and turn it against him. Against someone like Dooku however who isn't really a raw power fighter I think Vaapad's usefulness will be far less giving the advantage to the Count.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
No because A>B>C logic doesn't work in Star Wars.

And Sidious is a nightmare for a fighter like Dooku for the same reason Zonakin is. He's got raw power and speed out the wazzuu and unlike Skywalker he's got the mastery to back it up.

Mace on the otherhand is equipped with the form to take that raw power and turn it against him. Against someone like Dooku however who isn't really a raw power fighter I think Vaapad's usefulness will be far less giving the advantage to the Count.

Well then thats the only reason why Dooku stalemates Windu and not his power level.

I agree that A>B>C logic doesn't work tough.

Originally posted by Sinious
Well there is a constant inaccuracy in Star Wars power levels. They literally perform differently in every single fight.



It's actually quite realistic. If you watch any combat sport, every fighter performs differently against different fighters. And A > B > C doesn't always work at all.

Plus every fighter will have their good and bad days.



Originally posted by Sinious
Yet Anakin has dominated Count Dooku in ROTS so I don't think Anakin's style being Dooku's kryptonite thing is enough to justify his loss.


Don't forget Dooku also dominated Anakin and Kenobi combined in ROTS. And Anakin was unable to overpower Obi-Wan in ROTS, who Dooku utterly stomped.




Originally posted by Sinious


I agree that A>B>C logic doesn't work tough.






It also seems TCW makers seem to think Windu and Dooku are about equals. Since they had Windu stalemate Talzin, in an episode that was originally supposed to feature Dooku as the villain. And the reason they switched from Dooku to Talzin was nothing to do with Dooku's power level being inable to compete with and stalemate Windu. But to do with the Villain's motives in that episode being more suitable for Talzin. The fight was also much longer, but had to be cut down to fit in the episode.

Also Sidious will be shown in SOD to be flat out more powerful than Talzin who Mace was stalemating. Plus there's the fact that Maul was able to engage Windu and another Council member together. The idea of Maul engaging Sidious plus another Council Level Jedi together is frankly out of the question.

So yeah A > B > C doesn't work at all. Sidious is far more powerful than Mace, but for whatever reason (Vapaad is as good as explanation as any), Mace can compete with Sidious.

Also remember Lucas said you have to be Mace or Yoda to compete with Sidious. But he never said it was a 3 way triangle. I.e. he never said you have to be Yoda or Sidious to compete with Mace.