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Sabers only duel

Battle takes place in Wrigley Field

Team 1 imo

Team 1.

Hm, I'd put Reborn Krayt at the best in sabers here, but the two on team 1 are better than Kyle (I'd say *overall* he's close to Obi-wan, but he uses the force more and this is sabers only). Choices, choices...

Team 1.

Team 1 takes this.

Originally posted by Q99
Hm, I'd put Reborn Krayt at the best in sabers here, but the two on team 1 are better than Kyle (I'd say *overall* he's close to Obi-wan, but he uses the force more and this is sabers only). Choices, choices...
How can Krayt, a primary Niman user, be better than the best Niman practitioner? Kun was also an exceptional Jar'kai user, evidently a master of the saberstaff as well.

not saying I personally have Krayt>Kun as duelists, but what proof do you have that Kun was "the best" per se?

Originally posted by AncientPower
How can Krayt, a primary Niman user, be better than the best Niman practitioner? Kun was also an exceptional Jar'kai user, evidently a master of the saberstaff as well.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
not saying I personally have Krayt>Kun as duelists, but what proof do you have that Kun was "the best" per se? Because he is the only user throughout the EU who ever evolved the form beyond the Jedi maxim of 'moderation' and made it far far more effective in the field.

He is essentially to Niman what Windu was to Vaapad.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Because he is the only user throughout the EU who ever evolved the form beyond the Jedi maxim of 'moderation' and made it far far more effective in the field.

He is essentially to Niman what Windu was to Vaapad.
Are you trying to tell me that Krayt was "moderate" or that he was bound by the "Jedi maxim"?

I am saying nothing in regards to Krayt, but nothing in the EU says he did what Kun did, infact nobody has been given this accolade but Kun, that's what makes him the Niman poster-boy.

Originally posted by AncientPower
I am saying nothing in regards to Krayt, but nothing in the EU says he did what Kun did, infact nobody has been given this accolade but Kun, that's what makes him the Niman poster-boy.
could you provide the quote for the accolade please?

Originally posted by Emperordmb
could you provide the quote for the accolade please?

There is no one all encompassing quote about his abilities, it's more the amalgamation of numerous quotes on him.

Kun is the only one stated to be a genuine full master of Niman, we also get the statement that he was obviously an aggressive duellist. Then we know full well that if someone truly masters Niman they become jack of all trades.

Factor in the obvious that he does not like to incorporate Force powers in his duels and we see the top tier Niman practitioner.

Whilst Krayt gets the highly skilled practitioner statement, it clearly does not compare.

Kun is generally accepted to be the Niman practitioner and has been for quite some time.

Originally posted by AncientPower
There is no one all encompassing quote about his abilities, it's more the amalgamation of numerous quotes on him.

Kun is the only one stated to be a genuine full master of Niman, we also get the statement that he was obviously an aggressive duellist. Then we know full well that if someone truly masters Niman they become jack of all trades.

Factor in the obvious that he does not like to incorporate Force powers in his duels and we see the top tier Niman practitioner.

Whilst Krayt gets the highly skilled practitioner statement, it clearly does not compare.

Kun is generally accepted to be the Niman practitioner and has been for quite some time.
So could you provide any of these quotes for me? And I don't see how incorporating or not incorporating force powers in combat suggests skill or lack of with a lightsaber.

I will attempt to, they are all quite old.

Also, Niman is a form all about chaining in Force Powers, something Kun refrained from.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Also, Niman is a form all about chaining in Force Powers, something Kun refrained from.
That's not all Niman is about, that is merely an aspect of it. That being said arguing that Kun is the greatest Niman practitioner because he refrains from one of its aspects is a flawed argument that doesn't make much sense.

Kun is a failure in terms of Niman. His style is completely different then the overall objections of it. He relies on power attacks and his unorthodox blade to overcome opponents.
Revan, while not the greatest master of course (he is a generalist, not a specialist), is at least a standard of what Niman is about: chaining Force powers in lightsaber combat.

Niman is not all about chaining in force attacks. That is merely an aspect of it. Niman seems to be mostly about versatility and well-roundedness.

Yes, but we are discussing combat situations here. One of the main advantages of Niman is that it allows you to focus primarily on Force abilities, yet still be able to win lightsaber duels (according to Drew, at least.) I liked this description a lot actually:

"This form works well for anyone who is intelligent and adaptable, as Revan obviously was. It has no real weaknesses, and even though it is not as aggressive as other forms it enables the user to unleash powerful Force abilities more easily during combat. Revan was skilled in lightsaber combat, but knew true strength came from using all the other Force abilities in conjunction with lightsaber combat. Form VI would allow Revan to spend less time focusing on lightsaber skills, and more time developing other Force powers."

Kun was not a failure by ANY measure, he just took the consular's form beyond the levels of moderation, beyond the needs of consulars relying on Force powers to get them by and mastered it entirely.

He became the absolute jack of all trades by doing so, the average Niman user, depends on it to get them by long enough to prep Force abilities.

Exar Kun used it solely for lightsaber combat and developed it to it's highest extent, removing any notions of balance or moderation and surpassing those limits, this is a generally accepted feat of Kun's.

Calling Kun a failure in Niman because he didn't chain Force attacks is like saying Windu failed at developing Vaapad because he didn't go rage mode every time.

Ant was saying he was a failure in chaining force based attacks into his fighting, which is a core aspect of Niman as a style. I agree for the most part. Kun was a master swordsman, but if he combined his aggression with force attacks like Malgus he'd be even more potent.

But Kun did use the Force, he used Rage, more than once, he just didn't actively use his powers midfight, a more efficient way of keeping up the pressure.

Niman is what Force prowess focused combatants used when they were building up attacks, but they were also fairly pathetic at the Form in the first place. Kun mastered Niman instead of relying on the Force to get him by in fights.

I find it far more efficient to be able to just outright defeat your opponent in a duel with your own skill, instead of having no choice but to fall back on the Force every time you got in trouble.

Kun was both a master swordsman and a master of the Force.

The real fight here is between the Sith, and I think Krayt has the edge just because he has better feats.

Originally posted by AncientPower
How can Krayt, a primary Niman user, be better than the best Niman practitioner? Kun was also an exceptional Jar'kai user, evidently a master of the saberstaff as well.


Well, Krayt has a lot more raw experience. Kun also tended to win by simply outpowered his foes- he didn't get through Vodo's guard, after all, he simply pounded until the guard broke.

Krayt being very physically powerful himself, that brute force approach is unlikely to work.




Bah, Krayt was the best duelist of his era by feats, clearly, and gets nods of respect for his power from Luke and Jacen. Even as Hett, he was considered a very dangerous duelist to face by Kenobi.


And there is simply the raw experience thing- Kun was extremely talented, but he was around for just a few years, he wasn't that old.


Kun invented the saberstaff style. It was new and unconventional then, with people not really having experience fighting it. Krayt's fought against and taught styles like that for several times Kun's lifetime. Krayt's knowledge and experience with sabers of all forms is greater.


A duel between them should be epically awesome, but when both people are really good, and strong, at the end of the day I expect the more experienced one, and the one who relies a bit less on being unconventional to his foes/stronger than his foes to win.

Kun didn't invent the saberstaff he gained that knowledge via a holocron and reintroduced the weapon to lightsaber combat.

The argument that his opponents were defeated through fighting against the norm with his own weapon makes no sense when Vodo himself used a staff, it was just made of wood.

Krayt had experience sure, but when Kun is calling Luke's own dueling skills 'quaint' we have an idea of just how much he himself knew about the art.

Kun don't forget fought two of the best master swordsman of the era, both Form V practitioners and held his own in a power duel, even killing the more experienced of the two.

Kun was clearly a jack of all trades combatant and labeling him with one of any style of combat isn't taking enough into account in my opinion.

Unfortunately for Kun his lack of active combat and his active rule as a Dark Lord goes against him here but wait.. isn't that the whole point of Kun?

It goes to show that he is the only one who genuinely mastered the Niman form, clearly adapted it to his own preferences and has kept the poster boy tag even after 4,000 years of other duelists.

Simply put Kun was a natural as a swordsman, the fact he mastered multiple uses of the lightsaber in the most adaptable form, is much more impressive when you realize he was practically self taught.

Still, his opponents didn't know it and needed to adapt to what was, at the time, an unconventional style. That's often been noted as one of his advantage.

But in Krayt's time, it's a very conventional weapon where later masters have added their own techniques and flourishes and such. Rather than Kun being the only saberstaff wielder around, Krayt's from an era where both Jedi and Sith use it.



I'll note this was relatively early Luke who was still growing, and frankly, I'd say Kun was just fronting. I don't see him doing any better against Sidious.



Krayt fought against the two next best people from his era. He killed both.

And note that Kun didn't so much outskill Vodo, as pound him until his staff broke.



I'm pretty sure a number of others have mastered Niman. Sidious mastered all the forms iirc, and taught Maul all of them as well.

And, well, Krayt. Krayt's genuinely mastered it and that's who he's facing, so not much of an advantage there ^^



... he learned under Vodo, known to be the greatest lightsaber teacher of the era, for years. He's not like Nomi who largely started on her own.


And, frankly, mastering multiple forms is pretty darn common in the higher tiers. Nor is it necessary to be high tier- Dooku and Kenobi were extremely skilled while focusing on one form.

Kun is indeed quite a natural as a saber user, I'm just not seeing how that's supposed to make him better, especially when his foe is both quite talented and way more experienced.

Originally posted by carthage
Ant was saying he was a failure in chaining force based attacks into his fighting, which is a core aspect of Niman as a style. I agree for the most part. Kun was a master swordsman, but if he combined his aggression with force attacks like Malgus he'd be even more potent.
This.

Krayt defeats Kun through superior speed, skill, and his use of Jar Kai sabers would render Kun's adjustable double blades moot. Kun doesn't have the same strength advantage he had againt Vodo, and Krayt while similarly prone to dark rage is more controlled in his approach. I think Kun with Jar Kai sabers would be an even match for Krayt, but they aren't his go-to weapon.

Krayt is more skilled in Jar Kai, faster, and just has better feats. He would take Kun in sabers for a majority

I disagree, Kun simply has greater evidence of superior mastery over their chosen form.

Kun wins, 7/10.

Originally posted by AncientPower
I disagree, Kun simply has greater evidence of superior mastery over their chosen form.

Krayt has more dominant dueling feats. He took out 4 masters while surrounded with ease. He overpowered Cade Skywalker in claws of the dragon, then in their final duel, he got past Cade's job with a grab, he didn't simply batter him down.

Kun's good but he has more peers and against strong foes he did rely overly much on a brute force edge to break their weapons, which if anything is an area he has at a disadvantage vs Krayt.

I give this to team 1 largely because I think Katarn would fall to Kenobi

On a one v one basis Kun would lose to Krayt, but I think he can hold his own long enough for Kenobi to take out Katarn.

Open to arguments for team two though