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who wins who dies?

The Emperor wins

Originally posted by carthage
The Emperor wins
Which Emperor?

Sidious wins. Obviously.

I really don't think it's that obvious.

Sidious rag dolls.

*sits down and waits for Neph*

What incarnation of Darth Sidious are we referring to here?

Originally posted by Emperordmb
I really don't think it's that obvious.

It kind of is.

Malgus and Vader>>> Maul and Opress

No disagreement there

Sidious>>>Maul and Opress. http://r26.imgfast.net/users/2613/36/14/96/smiles/3177439056.gif

You guys are great at stating the obvious

Originally posted by Selenial
Sidious rag dolls.

*sits down and waits for Neph*

I wouldn't have objected much if you had said he blitzes, but ragdolls?

http://cdn01.cdnwp.celebuzz.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/14/jennifer-lawrence-10.gif

Originally posted by carthage
You guys are great at stating the obvious

Nah, I was responding to Bantha's statement that Malgus and Vader>>>Opress/Maul, replying that Sidious is as well.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Nah, I was responding to Bantha's statement that Malgus and Vader>>>Opress/Maul, replying that Sidious is as well.

But Bantha said that in response to Selenial's suggestion that Sidious could ragdoll those two like he did Opress and Maul.

lame.

Originally posted by Nephthys
But Bantha said that in response to Selenial's suggestion that Sidious could ragdoll those two like he did Opress and Maul.

I never mentioned those two....

He ragdolled Them with ease, so slapping Vader aside should be just as much of a cakewalk, and Malgus couldn't do shit against Sidious solo.

Originally posted by Selenial
I never mentioned those two....

He ragdolled Them with ease, so slapping Vader aside should be just as much of a cakewalk, and Malgus couldn't do shit against Sidious solo.

Slapping Vader aside with ease.... im not going to make fun of your stupidity but I am going to make you aware of its existence.

Originally posted by WildBantha88
Slapping Vader aside with ease.... im not going to make fun of your stupidity but I am going to make you aware of its existence.

80% is a large power gap bro.

But even without that ridiculous Farce of a quote, if you don't think Sidious (undefined Era) could obliterate him with any of his vast arrays of powers, there is no saving you.

Originally posted by Selenial
I never mentioned those two....

He ragdolled Them with ease, so slapping Vader aside should be just as much of a cakewalk, and Malgus couldn't do shit against Sidious solo.

Neeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeey, I don't think he could do that. Vader is only 20%-sish less powerful. Plus it's not like Malgus would just stand there while Sidious is attacking his ally. Malgus would also do better than you give him credit for. Unless he has to face Sidious' lightning solo, he doesn't really have the feats to tank that shit. But in other aspects he could pressure Sidious moderately, as could Vader.

He could.....if Malgus wasn't at his side. :/

Malgus wouldn't be able to see him move.

Can you see my finger move? You know which one.

Are you forgetting the Maul and Savage fight?

See how carelessly he obliterated them?

He wasn't even trying for the most of that fight, which is why we can use it as an example. All he'd need to do would be separate Vader and Malgus, and due to the way both of these Juggernauts fight..... That shouldn't be an issue,

Originally posted by Nephthys
Can you see my finger move? You know which one.


The one you stuffed through your good eye to ignore the truth I type?

Fact dealt cretin.

His majesty moves faster than high tier Jedi masters can perceive, and was described as 'fading from reality' by Anakin who is above Malgus in force power/feats.

Anakin never saw him fight, you spanner.

Originally posted by Selenial
Are you forgetting the Maul and Savage fight?

See how carelessly he obliterated them?

He wasn't even trying for the most of that fight, which is why we can use it as an example. All he'd need to do would be separate Vader and Malgus, and due to the way both of these Juggernauts fight..... That shouldn't be an issue,

Malgus and Vader >>> Maul and Savage.

Not according to the ROTS novel, I could care less whether or not you agree.

The movie >>>>> the novel. I don't give a flying fetish what that dude wrote after reading an early script, the movie only has Anakin arrive after Mace has won. He never saw a second of the fight.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Malgus >>> Savage.

Fixed.

and I never denied that.

Even if that were true Palpatine blitzed four Masters all who are on the same tier/not very far off as Malgus in terms of speed. Malgus's speed feats i,e forming a shield out of his saber, and moving his saber fast enough to form a red blur. Saesee Tiin has replicated those same feats, and look how well he did.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The movie >>>>> the novel. I don't give a flying fetish what that dude wrote after reading an early script, the movie only has Anakin arrive after Mace has won. He never saw a second of the fight.
This is all making insanely good sense to me.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
This is all making insanely good sense to me.

Its good that Neph is ignoring feats? Would it meet your approval if Palpatine was deflecting rain drops in his backyard?

Cry moar carthage. It's all you can do, cuz you certainly can't rebut my point. Why don't you just promise to respond later and never get around to it. Again.

Originally posted by Selenial
Fixed.

and I never denied that.

Maul can compete with Vader in sabers, but in terms of TK and the Force, Vader is well above Maul in my estimation. He has some of the best TK feats of anyone who isn't throwing capital ships around. He overloaded a lightsaber with his power. He shook a 6+ story building just by getting pissed off. Tossed or demolished large machines, droids and ships. Shattered a substance scientists thought unbreakable. And lots of others I've forgotten.

So I just can't see him getting dismissed like Maul was by Sidious. But that's just my opinion.

Carthage, stop derailing threads.

When has Malgus "shattered" a substance scientists thought was unbreakable?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Cry moar carthage. It's all you can do, cuz you certainly can't rebut my point. Why don't you promise to respond later and never get around to it. Again.



So I just can't see him getting dismissed like Maul was by Sidious. But that's just my opinion.

I can't respond to something your ignoring? There is nothing that states that the novelization is an inferior order of cannon as its just adding detail to the same event. And like I said even if it was true, Malgus is still on the same speed tier as the Jedi masters that Palpatine blitzed. You haven't refuted my point, you ignored a feat and aren't bringing up anything to support Malgus even being able to track his movements.

Originally posted by carthage
When has Malgus "shattered" a substance scientists thought was unbreakable?

It was Vader, and iirc it was in "Death Star".

Sidious.

Originally posted by carthage
Like I said even if that was true, this doesn't prove Malgus can trace Sidious's movements. He is roughly as fast as the Jedi that died, try again.

I don't care about that, nor did I ever disagree with that assessment. I win. Again.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't care about that, nor did I ever disagree with that assessment. I win. Again.

The quote doesn't say its non cannon, tated toward the end it allowed for 'minor differences'. Sorry but you can't wish away a feat just because you don't like it.

Again prove Malgus can even track his movements if Anakin cant. You can't ignore feats just to jack off a TOR character.

Wow, did you just say that it doesn't say the film version is true?

No. Neph is ignoring the Novelization and lowballing it.

I caught that edit, bro. Do better.

Originally posted by carthage
http://cdn1.babyzone.com/images/2013/04/baby-boy-crying-photo-420x420-ts-56570356.jpg

Nope, it says that the movies are the absolute canon and that only the movies are absolute canon. It then says that even the novelisations are merely interpretations of the events of the movies with differences, and thus are not absolute canon. The Movies are G-canon, the novels are not. Anakin was never in the room while the fight occurred. He never saw Sidious move other than scurry backwards like a prison b*tch who dropped the soap.

Huh... I guess we know what Carthage looks like. Looks a bit older than I expected.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Nope, it says that the movies are the absolute canon and that only the movies are absolute canon. It then says that even the novelisations are merely interpretations with differences, and thus are not absolute canon. The Movies are G-canon, the novels are not.


Posting memes doesn't help the fact you're a liar and you're blatantly lowballing and ignoring feats dooder



Please tell me where in the second half of the quote you posted does it explicitly say that events in the novel are disavowed when its simply adding detail to the movie?

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Huh... I guess we know what Carthage looks like. Looks a bit older than I expected.

Lmao, don't you mean younger?

Emperor has been hitting the wine bottle too much

Originally posted by carthage
Posting memes doesn't help the fact you're a liar and you're blatantly lowballing and ignoring feats dooder
OMFG You do this shit all the time.

Originally posted by carthage
Please tell me where in the second half of the quote you posted does it explicitly say that events in the novel are disavowed when its simply adding detail to the movie?
There's a large difference between adding detail and completely contradicting.

You win nothing, the novels are supplementary and are not invalidated by any quote as Lucas still accepts the novelization as cannon. They're still interpretations, and your own opinion doesn't devalue a cannon feat. Try again.

You're arbitrarily choosing a source, and lying/lowballing like you always do. You can't win something you're ignoring just because its supplementary, its still G cannon

Movies>Novels is pretty damn accepted.

And there is a substantial difference between supplementary and contradictory.

Except nothing in the movie would even be remotely harmed by Anakin seeing the fight as the quote said it allows for 'minor details'. Lol @ Neph getting desperate to disprove a feat by being selective with sources.

It's not a minor detail. The fight is clearly over before Anakin even walks through the door. That's a pretty big detail, actually.

Again, Neph has proven that the movies take absolute precedence in both the Canon hierarchy and as this forum.

The fact that you choose to ignore that makes you more desperate and selective than Neph.

How does it alter the course of events at all? Windu is still amped, Sidious still blitzes the Jedi masters, and Vader still falls- and the quote even said as long as the novelizations don't deviate from the plot they're still G cannon. Nothing Neph has contradicts that, as that's what it says in the quote. He's ignoring a feat just so Malgus doesn't get oneshot.

Originally posted by carthage
You win nothing, the novels are supplementary and are not invalidated by any quote as Lucas still accepts the novelization as cannon. They're still interpretations, and your own opinion doesn't devalue a cannon feat. Try again.

You're arbitrarily choosing a source, and lying/lowballing like you always do. You can't win something you're ignoring just because its supplementary

They are supplementary, yes. They supplement the work as long as they do not contradict it. Which the RotS book does in this case. The movies are still the main, absolute texts. The novels exist to fill in the gaps, not rewrite the script.

It's not arbitrary. The novel directly contradicts the movie by putting Anakin in the room to observe the fight when he did not in the main source. I'm not ignoring anything, I'm pointing out the facts. You're the one trying to ignore the contradiction to sneak in an invalid feat.

And yes, I can win. Because I've got the forum rules on my side. Not mere opinion. Face it, Films>Books.

Originally posted by carthage
How does it alter the course of events at all? Windu is still amped, Sidious still blitzes the Jedi masters, and Vader still falls- and the quote even said as long as the novelizations don't deviate from the plot they're still G cannon. Nothing Neph has contradicts that, as that's what it says in the quote. He's ignoring a feat just so Malgus doesn't get oneshot.

It alters the course because the exact thing you're trying to establish is Sidious fading in and out of existence from Anakin's perspective. But Anakin was never in the room to make that observation and thus it was never made.

Originally posted by Nephthys
It alters the course because the exact thing you're trying to establish is Sidious fading in and out of existence from Anakin's perspective. But Anakin was never in the room to make that observation and thus it was never made.

Sure. But that still doesn't mean that Sidious wasn't moving that fast.

My feeling is two people of this level working together will probably take the majority against anyone. Unless they mess up and interfere with each other, give Sidious a clear shot at one, they should come on top. Even one-on-one would take noticeable effort after all.

And even if Sidious does manage to get one of them eventually, by that point he'll likely be a lot more tired than normal from the effort of lasting that long and trying to press an assault at the same time.

Originally posted by ares834
Sure. But that still doesn't mean that Sidious wasn't moving that fast.

Of course not. But if he was, you'd have to establish that without use of invalid evidence.

None of you guys are catching on to what Cart is actually saying. You guys report him for the silliest shit. He contributes to debates with more detailed analysis than people like Sinious, who do nothing but state there opinion and then shy off.

Anakin is not the source of Sidious' speed, therefore him not being there contradicts nothing.

Nah. Anakin's observation is non-canonical but Sidious's speed is canon.

Originally posted by Q99
My feeling is two people of this level working together will probably take the majority against anyone. Unless they mess up and interfere with each other, give Sidious a clear shot at one, they should come on top. Even one-on-one would take noticeable effort after all.

And even if Sidious does manage to get one of them eventually, by that point he'll likely be a lot more tired than normal from the effort of lasting that long and trying to press an assault at the same time.

Malgus has nothing to indicate he can react to the Emperor's speed. Whether or not the novelization is valid (which the film takes precedence over), the Film still depicts Tiin and Kolar going down. Malgus is roughly as fast as either.

I'm unsure as to whether Vader could react or not.

Originally posted by carthage
Malgus has nothing to indicate he can react to the Emperor's speed. Whether or not the novelization is valid (which the film takes precedence over), the Film still depicts Tiin and Kolar going down. Malgus is roughly as fast as either.

I'm unsure as to whether Vader could react or not.


Fisto was able to react to several blows- he was outskilled, not outsped.

Savage Opress was able to react and as long as he wasn't one-on-one was actually doing ok.

And don't forget- it's not really simple speed, it's precog, and with their strength in the force, these two should have combat precog above Maul, let alone Opress and Fisto.


Basically, Tiin and Kolar seem to be the *very* edge of blitzable by Sidious. Anyone past that has managed to engage in a fight, even if they are outmatched.

Originally posted by ares834
Nah. Anakin's observation is non-canonical but Sidious's speed is canon.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Anakin is not the source of Sidious' speed, therefore him not being there contradicts nothing.

Anakin was the source of the observation though, and thus the observation that Sidious was moving fast enough to fade in and out of someone like Anakin's vision is invalid. His speed still exists, but not as it is established by that observation.

I don't see why this is even much of an issue, since Sidious blitzing the B-team is more than enough to establish his speed. You guys don't need Anakin's perspective.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Of course not. But if he was, you'd have to establish that without use of invalid evidence.


The novel isn't invalid evidence. Anakin's perception was used as added detail to depict just how fast Sidious and Mace were fighting, therefore it was the writer's and, apparently, Lucas' intent for Sidious to move that fast. There's nothing in the movie that contradicts the speed of Mace and Sidious other than Anakin not being there; however Anakin isn't the source of Sidious's speed, so the burden of proof would fall to the ones disagreeing with the writer's intent (in this case: Sidious' speed).

Originally posted by Q99
Fisto was able to react to several blows- he was outskilled, not outsped.

Savage Opress was able to react and as long as he wasn't one-on-one was actually doing ok.

And don't forget- it's not really simple speed, it's precog, and with their strength in the force, these two should have combat precog above Maul, let alone Opress and Fisto.


Basically, Tiin and Kolar seem to be the *very* edge of blitzable by Sidious. Anyone past that has managed to engage in a fight, even if they are outmatched.

Fisto in terms of feats is faster than Tiin, Kolar, and Malgus- how that plays into his ability to react to Palpatine is up for debate. I honestly have no idea how he managed to do that, if Vaapad is still cannon the only reason Mace survived was due to his amp. If its not the entirely possible that PT writers are being inconsistent in enabling him to survive. I don't recall any great feats of perception or precog by Fisto offhand though

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
The novel isn't invalid evidence. Anakin's perception was used as added detail to depict just how fast Sidious and Mace were fighting, therefore it was the writer's and, apparently, Lucas' intent for Sidious to move that fast. There's nothing in the movie that contradicts the speed of Mace and Sidious other than Anakin not being there; however Anakin isn't the source of Sidious's speed, so the burden of proof would fall to the ones disagreeing with the writer's intent (in this case: Sidious' speed).

Mace in terms of speed feats isn't comparable to Palpatine. Windu's speed is contingent on if Vaapad is still cannon or not, as it allowed Windu to only match Palpatine in speed. If Vaapad is non cannon and he matched Palpatine bereft of an amp, then why didn't he utterly smash Vastor, Grievous, Tiin, or Bulq?

Originally posted by carthage
Mace in terms of speed feats isn't comparable to Palpatine. Windu's speed is contingent on if Vaapad is still cannon or not, as it allowed Windu to only match Palpatine in speed. If Vaapad is non cannon and he matched Palpatine bereft of an amp, then why didn't he utterly smash Vastor, Grievous, Tiin, or Bulq?


I'm referring to his speed during his fight with Sidious.

Originally posted by carthage
Fisto in terms of feats is faster than Tiin, Kolar, and Malgus- how that plays into his ability to react to Palpatine is up for debate.

Tiin and Kolar, sure, but Malgus? He fights the best of his era.


And remember- it doesn't have to be just physical speed. Greater precog than those two would do as well. It just needs to be the total *reaction* that is better, in any combination.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
The novel isn't invalid evidence. Anakin's perception was used as added detail to depict just how fast Sidious and Mace were fighting, therefore it was the writer's and, apparently, Lucas' intent for Sidious to move that fast. There's nothing in the movie that contradicts the speed of Mace and Sidious other than Anakin not being there; however Anakin isn't the source of Sidious's speed, so the burden of proof would fall to the ones disagreeing with the writer's intent (in this case: Sidious' speed).

Everything that Anakin's narration describes about that duel is invalid. The whole section is invalid. Sidious is moving fast yeah. We all freaking know that. He blitzed 3 of the best duelists alive at the time. But it's only Anakin failing to keep up with his movements that indicates that he's fast enough for Anakin to fail to keep up with his movements. If you want to establish that, do so in a way that doesn't use that evidence.

And you can't decide what the writer's or Lucas' intent was.

Also, I'd like to point out that the entire fight scene has extremely little in common with the movies depiction anyway. If I was feeling salty I'd suggest everything except the inner monologues is non-canon.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
None of you guys are catching on to what Cart is actually saying. You guys report him for the silliest shit. He contributes to debates with more detailed analysis than people like Sinious, who do nothing but state there opinion and then shy off.


lmao

Shy off? I don't ever remember doing that. In fact you have ignored my posts several times where you were out of answers. I've never hesitated to state feats as well. You just feel like you have the right to decide whether an achievement of a character is relevant or not.

Good job pumpkin. I especially loved the part where you said "He contributes to debates"

Originally posted by Nephthys
And you can't decide what the writer's or Lucas' intent was.


I didn't decide it. The writer did for writing it, and Lucas did for leaving it in the novel. You disagreeing with their intentions regarding their speed is up to you to prove false. Again, Anakin not being there doesn't contradict the writers intention.

Anakin isn't far beyond the B-Team in speed. Even Sidious' fight with Yoda and Anakin on the spirit plane had Yoda seemingly try to separate them with the force during the brief two on one saber duel (I'll have to watch that part again), and not wanting Anakin to intervene. However, Anakin's connection to the force is a lot stronger so his battle precognition may be sufficient to react for a while.

Team takes this 10/10.

Sidious is 20% superior to Vader, which is not enough to give him the majority against Vader + Malgus. Team work is a huge bonus in and of itself for the duo.

Originally posted by ares834
Nah. Anakin's observation is non-canonical but Sidious's speed is canon.



We've been down this road before. The forum rules compel us to eliminate that which directly contradicts the movie. The only thing that contradicts the movie is Anakin's observation, not what he observed.

Now that doesn't mean you SWTORians aren't free to put your desperation on display. I invite you to do so indefinitely. It's amusing for the rest of us.

Not sure why this point is being argued. On one hand, even if it isn't canon, Maul in Shadow Conspiracy was also unable to track Palpatine's movements.

And even if it is, whilst he cannot visually perceive them, Anakin is able to follow Mace's and Sidious's movements through the Force, so the point is hardly worth talking about.

Originally posted by Sinious
lmao

Shy off? I don't ever remember doing that. In fact you have ignored my posts several times where you were out of answers. I've never hesitated to state feats as well. You just feel like you have the right to decide whether an achievement of a character is relevant or not.

Good job pumpkin. I especially loved the part where you said "He contributes to debates"


You just harp too much on implied power and hype. Even if Cart is too strict with feats, feats matter more than hype and implied power. Don't get me wrong, quotes mean a lot and so does implied power, but for the most part they have no connection to the characters from the PT era, and when arguing TOR vs PT, you rely too much on hype.

I never accused you of never using feats, but when debunked, you shy off, and have even went as far as calling others bias for not accepting the notion that Vitiate would easily destroy Vader, which was a rather silly notion.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Not sure why this point is being argued. On one hand, even if it isn't canon, Maul in Shadow Conspiracy was also unable to track Palpatine's movements.


In Shadow Conspiracy, Palpatine disarmed Maul because of that reason, which is not how he disarmed him in the series. Sidious never sped up on Maul at the end of the confrontation; he overpowered him in strength.


Originally posted by NewGuy01
And even if it is, whilst he cannot visually perceive them, Anakin is able to follow Mace's and Sidious's movements through the Force, so the point is hardly worth talking about.


Even if Anakin can last longer on account of having better battle precognition than the B-team, moving faster that what he would be capable of seeing with his eyes, is a good speed feat considering the speed in which Anakin could see in slow motion with his eyes alone.

I wasn't arguing whether or not Sidious would be capable of blitzing Anakin; only that the writer's used Anakin's perception as a way to describe the speed of Sidious and Windu in their duel, and that it was clearly the writer's intent for them to move that fast. Other than Anakin not being there, there is nothing in the movie to contradict the speed in which Sidious was moving during his duel with Windu in the novel, considering that Anakin isn't a source of speed that Sidious draws from.

Originally posted by The_Tempest


We've been down this road before. The forum rules compel us to eliminate that which directly contradicts the movie. The only thing that contradicts the movie is Anakin's observation, not what he observed.

Now that doesn't mean you SWTORians aren't free to put your desperation on display. I invite you to do so indefinitely. It's amusing for the rest of us.


I messaged you, bro. Don't make me bug you on facebook. You know how impatient I get when it comes to Sidious.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
You just harp too much on implied power and hype. Even if Cart is too strict with feats, feats matter more than hype and implied power. Don't get me wrong, quotes mean a lot and so does implied power, but for the most part they have no connection to the characters from the PT era, and when arguing TOR vs PT, you rely too much on hype.

I never accused you of never using feats, but when debunked, you shy off, and have even went as far as calling others bias for not accepting the notion that Vitiate would easily destroy Vader, which was a rather silly notion.





Well, I acknowledge the importance of feats. However, PT characters have the advantage of being portrayed in many SW work. There are tons of information out there about them. Most characters from TOR don't belong to a movie and a lot of characters like Tulak Hord, Darth Jadus, Soa are unknown to us in most ways even though they are depicted as extremely powerful beings in the mythos. So when you're debating PT vs PT, lack of feats has no excuse in most cases but different realities apply in other eras of the EU. Me and other people who have similar opinions simply understand this reality and present arguments accordingly. Besides the whole point of this forum is to present learned opinions based on true knowledge yet Carthage ignores this fact and tries to use the lack of information as an advantage when debating TOR vs PT.

Again, I don't shy off. In fact I'm more open minded than most people here and I don't pursue being undefeated in a debate. I often change my mind after and gain new perspectives. I don't claim to be %100 objective since I have my own favorite characters as well but I don't obsess like "some people" do while debating.


Nope. I don't think any jedi/sith including Luke and Sidious could destroy Vader easily. After reaching a level of power, the characters can stand their grounds to superior foes even if their defeat is inevitable at the end. My claim is that Vader does not stand a chance against Vitiate and that he would lose at the end with no doubt. This doesn't mean that Vitiate would have an easy time against him.

Sidious FTW. Malgus dies first