Talzin and Maul vs Sidious and Dooku

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.



Selenial
Fight takes place in the same area as in Som of Dathomir issue 4.

No Grevious to get in the way here, who wins?

IMO, Maul holds off Sidious a-la Mandalore, and Talzin rapes Dooku with Force drain before turning to Sidious.

Using Mauls power she overwhelms his Lightning and that's that.

But interested to see y'all's thoughts.

Fated Xtasy
Sidious speedblitz them both lol jk. interesting match up. i'll need to finish the issue before i make a call though.

Lord Stark
Talzin has solidified herself as the #3 of the era with her feats. Very impressive.

Trocity
Team 2

Emperordmb
I'm leaning team two. Talzin seemed to not think they would hold out for much longer, even before Grievous stepped in.

Nephthys
Sidious > Talzin, Dooku > Maul. Team Human ftw.

Fated Xtasy
Originally posted by Emperordmb
I'm leaning team two. Talzin seemed to not think they would hold out for much longer, even before Grievous stepped in.

thumb up Emperor pretty much said everything i wanted to say. team two takes the victory.

Marco1907
team 1 only can win via prep time, a voodoo spell on sidious or another trick, talzin can't take sidious alone as we see in last chapter,

though maul can defeat dooku but as i said, sidious is the problem here.

Trocity
Originally posted by Marco1907
though maul can defeat dooku

Possible, but unlikely

Selenial
Why can't Talzin take on Sidious? She sort of just did.

And yes she said they couldn't last longer, but they would never have gotten ino that bad of a position had Grevious not distracted Maul...

ares834
Not sure what the point of this is when Team 2 was just shown as being the superior team....

Marco1907
Originally posted by Trocity
Possible, but unlikely

Maul has serious advantages, unless Dooku shoots him via force lightning (I am sure Maul can deflect it with lightsaber) I don't see Dooku is winning.

Dooku's makashi is weak against physical attacks, and physical attacks in mid duel is Maul's speciality.

As for TK, I don't see Dooku beating him via TK either, Maul's TK powers has grown powerful in TCW as well.

You can see my expansive analyse at my signature.

Selenial
Originally posted by ares834
Not sure what the point of this is when Team 2 was just shown as being the superior team....

Again, because Grevious took Maul out of the picture for a while and allowed Talzin to lose the tactical advantage.

If she hadn't got in a position where Sidious and Dooku were both pumelling her with Lighting they could have won.
Maybe.

Nalaniel
Team 1 can only win with preparation.

ares834
While Maul was taking care of Greivous Dooku was still recovering from being hit by lightning. Ultimately, Maul helps Talzin before Dooku helps Sidious.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Marco1907
Maul has serious advantages, unless Dooku shoots him via force lightning (I am sure Maul can deflect it with lightsaber) I don't see Dooku is winning.

Does Maul actually have a lightsaber though? If he's using the Darksaber.....

Originally posted by Marco1907
Dooku's makashi is weak against physical attacks, and physical attacks in mid duel is Maul's speciality.

Nah, it's not "weak" to it. And Dooku has the speed advantage regardless.

Originally posted by Marco1907
As for TK, I don't see Dooku beating him via TK either, Maul's TK powers has grown powerful in TCW as well.

You can see my expansive analyse at my signature.

Dooku still has the edge there.

Marco1907
@Nephthys

Dooku & Maul's speed feats are matches. Dooku is not faster than Maul.

Nephthys
Dooku went head to head with Yoda, whereas Sidious toyed with Maul. Maul isn't even faster than Obi-Wan, who the Count is faster than by all accounts.

Nalaniel
Dooku was always able to casually get rid of Obi-Wan, whereas Maul wasn't always able to force own him.

Marco1907
Originally posted by Nephthys
Dooku went head to head with Yoda, whereas Sidious toyed with Maul. Maul isn't even faster than Obi-Wan, who the Count is faster than by all accounts.

Lol. Yoda didn't toyed with Dooku but Sidious toyed with Maul ?

Alright.

And who said Maul is not faster than Obi-Wan ?

Originally posted by Nalaniel
Dooku was always able to casually get rid of Obi-Wan, whereas Maul wasn't always able to force own him.

Obi-Wan has no tool to threat Dooku, Obi-Wan's defensive technique (soresu) is completely useless against Dooku's fencing style (makashi).

Which is why, Anakin defeated Dooku but failed at Obi-Wan, while Obi-Wan failed at Dooku but defeated Anakin.

FreshestSlice
lol@Soresu being useless against Makashi because reasons, but Djem So is so much better because reasons. It's like you think Saber forms have some type of rock-paper-scissors system.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Marco1907
Lol. Yoda didn't toyed with Dooku but Sidious toyed with Maul ?

Alright.

And who said Maul is not faster than Obi-Wan ?

Yoda didn't toy with Dooku, no.

The fact that Obi-Wan kicked his and his brothers ass?

Marco1907
Originally posted by Nephthys
Yoda didn't toy with Dooku, no.

The fact that Obi-Wan kicked his and his brothers ass?

Yoda toyed with Dooku more than Sidious toyed with Maul, Dooku didn't even touched Yoda while Maul managed to hit Sidious physically.

Obi-Wan kicked Maul's ass ? Lol. Thats Savage Opress, not Maul.
Maul defeated Obi-Wan 3 or 4 times, mostly with force attacks, and one time without a force attack ;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1fSg_mCId8

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
lol@Soresu being useless against Makashi because reasons, but Djem So is so much better because reasons. It's like you think Saber forms have some type of rock-paper-scissors system.

Yes because it is. Makashi is the ultimate lightsaber to lightsaber combat form, however it is weak against strong kinetic attacks and physical attacks. Except Juyo & Djem-so, Makashi is superior to every lightsaber form in lightsaber duel.

If you have any solid explanation for Anakin vs. Obi-Wan / Anakin vs. Dooku / Obi-Wan vs. Dooku confrontations, by my guest.

Nalaniel
Originally posted by Marco1907
Obi-Wan has no tool to threat Dooku, Obi-Wan's defensive technique (soresu) is completely useless against Dooku's fencing style (makashi).

Which is why, Anakin defeated Dooku but failed at Obi-Wan, while Obi-Wan failed at Dooku but defeated Anakin.

That reasoning is stupid. Every lightsaber form has its pros and cons, but it isn't THAT important. Someone's skill > lightsaber form

Selenial
Originally posted by Nalaniel
That reasoning is stupid. Every lightsaber form has its pros and cons, but it isn't THAT important. Someone's skill > lightsaber form
That's not true.

Fisto is one of the only people who has ever managed to make the style he uses great for combat.... No one else managed to turn it into a fencing form.

FreshestSlice
Uh, yeah that is true, especially with the three forms given. Fisto is the only one to use that Form to the fullest simply because the Form itself isn't really that optimal. If you put the absolute master of Shi-Cho against the absolute master of Juyo, I doubt form would matter as much as skill and Force strength.

Marco1907
Originally posted by Nalaniel
That reasoning is stupid. Every lightsaber form has its pros and cons, but it isn't THAT important. Someone's skill > lightsaber form

That matters in same levels, and Obi-Wan , Anakin , Dooku all of them mastered their own techniques. Of course a soresu master can defeat a mid tier makashi practitioner. I meant the same level opponents.

Nalaniel
Originally posted by Marco1907
That matters in same levels, and Obi-Wan , Anakin , Dooku all of them mastered their own techniques. Of course a soresu master can defeat a mid tier makashi practicer. I meant the same level opponents.

A mid tier Soresu master can defeat a mid tier Makashi master.

King Joker
Just saying, but Dooku couldn't even break Kenobi's defense without the Force and physical strikes.

Marco1907
Originally posted by Nalaniel
A mid tier Soresu master can defeat a mid tier Makashi master.

I don't see how...

Board Walker
No idea where people have derived the belief that makashi is weak against physical attacks.

Dooku lost to anakin because anakin had infinite power, stamina, and was the chosen one. Dooku has fought physical power houses without a problem such as his duels with windu, maul, and savage.

Nalaniel
Originally posted by Marco1907
I don't see how...

With skill, the force and tactic?

Trocity
Originally posted by King Joker
Just saying, but Dooku couldn't even break Kenobi's defense without the Force and physical strikes.

Which he did with ease.
Also, I'm pretty sure he did just straight up out duel him in the AotC movie, when he sliced his shoulder then leg. That's what I remember, anyway.

FreshestSlice
AotC isn't prime Kenobi do it doesn't matter.

Trocity
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
AotC isn't prime Kenobi do it doesn't matter.

You're right. He fared much better in ROTS.

Marco1907
Originally posted by Board Walker
No idea where people have derived the belief that makashi is weak against physical attacks.

Dooku lost to anakin because anakin had infinite power, stamina, and was the chosen one. Dooku has fought physical power houses without a problem such as his duels with windu, maul, and savage.

Where was these Anakin's ''infinite power, stamina'' against Obi-Wan ?

And Anakin is not the only one who is overpowered Dooku via physical, Savage Opress did the same.

Windu always holds back in sparring matches if you meant the old matchups between Dooku & Windu,

and Dooku never faced with Maul.

FreshestSlice
Yes because it is. Makashi is the ultimate lightsaber to lightsaber combat form, however it is weak against strong kinetic attacks and physical attacks. Except Juyo & Djem-so, Makashi is superior to every lightsaber form in lightsaber duel.

Lolno.

Anakin is that good, and Obi-Wan is also that good. It's hard to accept, I know, but in time you'll realise this.

King Joker
Originally posted by Trocity
Which he did with ease.
Also, I'm pretty sure he did just straight up out duel him in the AotC movie, when he sliced his shoulder then leg. That's what I remember, anyway.
But he couldn't straight up break his saber defense with ease.

And RotS Kenobi is far superior to AotC Kenobi.

Board Walker
Savage over powered anakin, and kenobi just as easily.

In the novel it clearly describes that anakin was infinite forge of energy, and that he was becoming stronger every second. Anakin was no where near the same mind set when he fought kenobi, that is why he didnt defeat him in the same manner.

No saber form holds an advantage against another, it is silly to think that fighting styles work in some sort of A beats B beats c format.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Marco1907
Yoda toyed with Dooku more than Sidious toyed with Maul, Dooku didn't even touched Yoda while Maul managed to hit Sidious physically.

Obi-Wan kicked Maul's ass ? Lol. Thats Savage Opress, not Maul.
Maul defeated Obi-Wan 3 or 4 times, mostly with force attacks, and one time without a force attack ;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1fSg_mCId8


Nah, Yoda isn't mentioned as toying with Dooku ever. Sidious was ****ing around the whole fight.

Filoni stated that Kenobi won that fight. Maul ran.

Nalaniel
Originally posted by Board Walker
No saber form holds an advantage against another, it is silly to think that fighting styles work in some sort of A beats B beats c format.

thumb up

NewGuy01
thumb up

Some forms are more advanced than others though. Just compare Niman to Juyo.

Marco1907
Originally posted by Nephthys
Nah, Yoda isn't mentioned as toying with Dooku ever. Sidious was ****ing around the whole fight.

Filoni stated that Kenobi won that fight. Maul ran.

Yoda is saying that '' practice I had with Dooku...'' Practice ?...

http://i760.photobucket.com/albums/xx244/Karasakal/StarWarsCloneWarsVolume1-089_zpsff696921.jpg

Is this looks like ****ing around... ???

http://i.hizliresim.com/BogBBM.jpg

http://i.hizliresim.com/nYoqqM.jpg

Maul only ran from Kenobi because Savage wounded heavily, not because Maul lost it...

Your post is full of biased opinions...

Board Walker
Originally posted by NewGuy01
thumb up

Some forms are more advanced than others though. Just compare Niman to Juyo.

Completely inaccurate, complexity is not dependent upon the form itself but rather upon the one who utilizes it.

All combat forms at their core are simplistic, they are built upon a singular strategy and then employ tactics to achieve that strategic goal. The only true difference between fighting forms are their strategic goal, and the tactics they use to achieve that goal.

Complexity has nothing to do with it at all, and it is merely a concept you are using in an attempt to justify your opinion of ranking one form over another.

NewGuy01
"Only high level masters of multiple forms can achieve the ultimate fighting discipline known as Juyo. This is the most difficult and demanding of all forms, but can eventually result in amazing power and skill"

-Form VII

"It is considered the diplomats form because it is less intensive in its demands than the other disciplines, allowing Jedi to spend more time developing their other skills."

-Form VI

Board Walker
Originally posted by NewGuy01
"Only high level masters of multiple forms can achieve the ultimate fighting discipline known as Juyo. This is the most difficult and demanding of all forms, but can eventually result in amazing power and skill"

-Form VII

"It is considered the diplomats form because it is less intensive in its demands than the other disciplines, allowing Jedi to spend more time developing their other skills."

-Form VI

Niman is exactly the same as Juyo in terms of complexity, both forms have limitless potential. Those descriptions are stating that most diplomats choose to train in Niman, and only do so to a very limited extent. It states nothing about the complexity, limitations, and or potential of the form.

Niman just like Juyo is a mixture of multiple forms, and when one trains just as heavily in niman as one would in Juyo the results are similar.

Examples of individuals who trained in Niman heavily, and not lightly as a diplomat are Exar Kun, Revan, and potentially Sidious.

FreshestSlice
More complex =/= better. Of course with you, not sure why any of us are bothering.

Selenial
Again I refer you to Shii-Cho.

It was never considered to be a good form at all for dueling, Fisto was the only one.

FreshestSlice
Fisto isn't the only one who perfected Shii-Cho, but even if he was, being the only one to advance in an art doesn't mean that the art itself is inferior.

Fated Xtasy
Originally posted by Selenial
Again I refer you to Shii-Cho.

It was never considered to be a good form at all for dueling, Fisto was the only one.

Um what about Lucien Draay? he completely destroyed four/three jedi iirc with Shii-Cho erm

Selenial
Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Um what about Lucien Draay? he completely destroyed four/three jedi iirc with Shii-Cho erm

Which is the point of Shii-Cho, to face multiple, less skilled fighters at once.

Competing with someone on the same level of you just doesn't work unless you're fisto.

Selenial
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Fisto isn't the only one who perfected Shii-Cho, but even if he was, being the only one to advance in an art doesn't mean that the art itself is inferior.

Except if he'd mastered Soresu, Makashi or Juyo to that level, he would be Mace/Kenobi/Dooku in terms of sabers.

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by Selenial
Except if he'd mastered Soresu, Makashi or Juyo to that level, he would be Mace/Kenobi/Dooku in terms of sabers.
And yet still uses Shii-Cho. Doesn't really disprove that no form is undoubtedly inferior to another.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Marco1907


Yes because it is. Makashi is the ultimate lightsaber to lightsaber combat form, however it is weak against strong kinetic attacks and physical attacks. Except Juyo & Djem-so, Makashi is superior to every lightsaber form in lightsaber duel.


Look at the underlined parts and tell me, is Makashi the Ultimate Lightsaber to Lightsaber combat form or not?

If it's not as good as Juyo or Djem So, then it's NOT the ultimate fencing form.

So is it or isn't it?


Originally posted by Marco1907
If you have any solid explanation for Anakin vs. Obi-Wan / Anakin vs. Dooku / Obi-Wan vs. Dooku confrontations, by my guest.


Well apart from the fact that Dooku fought Anakin with help from Kenobi, and apart from the fact that Anakin has shown he can simply Tank Dooku's TK Attacks far far better than Obi-Wan and apart from the fact that Kenobi and Anakin know each others moves and style very well.... Apart from all that, Soresu is just better at defending. That doesn't make Makashi weak at defending. It's actually also very good at that.

Now your welcome to explain that if Dooku loses to Anakin simply because he uses Djem So, then why wasn't Anakin beating Dooku every time they fought in TCW? In fact the very last time they fought in TCW (which wouldn't have been far off from ROTS) Dooku was outclassing Obi-Wan and Skywalker together.

In fact you can also explain how even in ROTS Dooku outclassed Kenobi and Skywalker together at one point? Flooring Skywalker leaving him helpless for a good 10 seconds?




Originally posted by Nephthys
Nah, Yoda isn't mentioned as toying with Dooku ever.


Well Sidious isn't mentioned as doing that either. Although it would be pretty f***ing stupid of Yoda if he was toying around with him considering the circumstances.


Originally posted by Nephthys
Sidious was ****ing around the whole fight.

Well if you're referring to the laughter, then it wasn't literally the whole fight.

Selenial
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
And yet still uses Shii-Cho. Doesn't really disprove that no form is undoubtedly inferior to another.

You're not listening.

He uses Shii-Cho, like a lot of Jedi, because there wasn't exactly much lightsaber dueling going on during the 1000 years where no one ever fighted Sith.

They needed to be good at blaster deflecting or fighting a lot of less skilled Vibroblade/melee fighter.

Lord Stark
Makashi is the ultimate dueling form.
"Master Windu himself remained perfectly balanced and centered. In the history of the Jedi Order, only two opponents ever overcame him in battle. One was Master Yoda, who some said was the Order's true master of lightsaber combat. The other was former Master Dooku, whose own fighting style was archaic, yet stunningly effective."

Djem So is not superior to Makashi imo. If you put two individuals with even skill and moderately similar stats, the Makashi user will win everytime imo.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Makashi is the ultimate dueling form.
"Master Windu himself remained perfectly balanced and centered. In the history of the Jedi Order, only two opponents ever overcame him in battle. One was Master Yoda, who some said was the Order's true master of lightsaber combat. The other was former Master Dooku, whose own fighting style was archaic, yet stunningly effective."

Djem So is not superior to Makashi imo. If you put two individuals with even skill and moderately similar stats, the Makashi user will win everytime imo.


thumb up

Zett
Sad, that still there are a people who believes, that Stover's BS about Makashi vs Djem So is a canon.

There is a possiblity for Sidious to defeat this team alone. With Dooku, it should be one sided. Espiecially if this is Dooku at his full shape (unlike in SoD).

carthage
Yeah Dooku would get his ass kicked if he tried fighting Maul and Talzin at once

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by Selenial
You're not listening.

He uses Shii-Cho, like a lot of Jedi, because there wasn't exactly much lightsaber dueling going on during the 1000 years where no one ever fighted Sith.

They needed to be good at blaster deflecting or fighting a lot of less skilled Vibroblade/melee fighter.
The most used Jedi form was Soresu during the PT era, not Shii-Cho, if anything this was something that only younglings used in a significant number, especially considering Shii-Cho is not the most effective way to block blaster bolts. He used Shii-Cho because he wanted to.

I also don't see how the high point of lightsaber combat suddenly became the lowpoint, either.

NewGuy01
He used Shii-Cho because it allows him to submerge himself more deeply into the Force than any other style.

Kit Fisto: "I should have gone closer to the edge. Released myself into the Force, become more unpredictable. More random."

Obi-Wan Kenobi: "That would have been dangerous. Not to your body, perhaps, but to your spirit."

Kit Fisto: "It is the way of Form I."

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by carthage
Yeah Dooku would get his ass kicked if he tried fighting Maul and Talzin at once

Wtf is this a response to?

Marco1907
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Look at the underlined parts and tell me, is Makashi the Ultimate Lightsaber to Lightsaber combat form or not?

If it's not as good as Juyo or Djem So, then it's NOT the ultimate fencing form.

So is it or isn't it?



No, because Djem-so and Juyo is not superior to other forms as Makashi is. Djem-so is using physical and juyo is using kinetic attacks sometimes, these are problem for makashi, except these, makashi is superior to shii-cho, soresu, ataru, niman etc.
If djem-so can't produce enough physical strength, or if juyo can't produce enough kinetic strentgh, then makashi is superior to these forms as well.


Originally posted by DARTH POWER


Well apart from the fact that Dooku fought Anakin with help from Kenobi, and apart from the fact that Anakin has shown he can simply Tank Dooku's TK Attacks far far better than Obi-Wan and apart from the fact that Kenobi and Anakin know each others moves and style very well.... Apart from all that, Soresu is just better at defending. That doesn't make Makashi weak at defending. It's actually also very good at that.

Now your welcome to explain that if Dooku loses to Anakin simply because he uses Djem So, then why wasn't Anakin beating Dooku every time they fought in TCW? In fact the very last time they fought in TCW (which wouldn't have been far off from ROTS) Dooku was outclassing Obi-Wan and Skywalker together.



He showed his physical advantage in TCW as well ;

http://i760.photobucket.com/albums/xx244/Karasakal/4057300-egdfgfdg_zps136cc574.gif

Season 4 - episode 18

http://i760.photobucket.com/albums/xx244/Karasakal/4057319-gfhfghfghfg_zps423422ec.gif


After that Dooku defeated him via force lightning & force blast. Not with lightsaber combat, and I still think that Dooku was more powerful than Anakin by RotS. For example ; Savage Opress did the same, disarmed Dooku with a powerful kinetic attack, but then he failed to stop his force lightning, same with Anakin, Dooku can overpower RotS Anakin via force powers.

And not to mention, Anakin overpowered by Dooku's TK & force lightning attacks before ;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqeEjv1_eOc

Dooku choked him right after Anakin created a force wave.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Marco1907
No, because Djem-so and Juyo is not superior to other forms as Makashi is. Djem-so is using physical and juyo is using kinetic attacks sometimes, these are problem for makashi, except these, makashi is superior to shii-cho, soresu, ataru, niman etc.
If djem-so can't produce enough physical strength, or if juyo can't produce enough kinetic strentgh, then makashi is superior to these forms as well.

But Djem So and Juyo do produce a lot kinetic energy. As does Ataru.

So going by your interpretation, Makashi is not even close to being the "Ultimate" fencing form.




Originally posted by Marco1907
He showed his physical advantage in TCW as well ;


So because he landed a kick which tripped Dooku over the stairs behind him, that gives Anakin a physical advantage? Even though the kick wasn't anywhere near as deadly or effective as the one Dooku landed on Anakin in ROTS?

Or what about all the deadly kicks Dooku's landed on Ventress and Kenobi, flooring them? Is Dooku their physical superior now? And where is Obi-Wan and Ventress's clear physical inferiority when they fight Skywalker?

I actually don't have a problem calling Anakin "stronger" than Dooku. I do have a problem with making it into a weakness for Dooku.

And btw, these "kicks" have absolutely nothing to do with Djem So and Makashi, so you're yet to prove Makashi is "weak" to Djem So and therefore loses by default.




Originally posted by Marco1907
After that Dooku defeated him via force lightning & force blast. Not with lightsaber combat, and I still think that Dooku was more powerful than Anakin by RotS.


Oh yeah, I completely agree Anakin's always been a threat to Dooku in "Sabers", but Dooku's always been the overall superior combatant thanks to his far superior force mastery.

But none of that makes Dooku "weak" to physical attacks or kinetic energy.

Originally posted by Marco1907
For example ; Savage Opress did the same, disarmed Dooku with a powerful kinetic attack, but then he failed to stop his force lightning, same with Anakin, Dooku can overpower RotS Anakin via force powers.

You're treating the Savage Opress thing as though it was a completely fair one on one situation.

Dooku was dancing around 2 of them in a cramped space after being surprise ambushed by both of them.

You're also assuming Dooku "had to" resort to Force Powers to deal with Opress.

In a one on one Dooku even after being disarmed (by hitting the wall behind him fighting 2 opponents in a cramped space) could have dodged Opress's attacks until he got his Saber back.

Originally posted by Marco1907
nd not to mention, Anakin overpowered by Dooku's TK & force lightning attacks before ;



Dooku choked him right after Anakin created a force wave.


None of this is relevant to physical attacks. I've always admitted Skywalker provides a challenge to Dooku. But he's still inferior overall, Djem So be damned stick out tongue

Board Walker
Many of you are attributing Dooku's loss, and past poor performances against Anakin in the physical department due to his use of Makashi. This is entirely incorrect as Makashi has nothing to do with this correlation, and it is far more likely due to Anakins VAST force reserves in tandem with his physical youth. This disparity in strength is further amplified by the fact that Dooku is past his physical prime, and has to use his LIMITED force reserves to temporarily match Anakin in a sustained physical brawl.

Do any of you honestly believe that if Dooku was using Djem So, or Juyo he would have fared any better against Anakin? I think not.

The fact of the matter is that Dooku utilizes Makashi because it is so compatible with his power set, and helps make up for his lack of infinite force reserves as well as his physical youth. Makashi allows him to utilize his finite force reserves in a far more efficient manner, this is why he uses it.

If Anakin were to utilize Makashi he would by no means be at a disadvantage versus physically strong opponents, this is because he possess infinite force reserves and vast physical strength.

Arhael
Bottom line kinetic energy is generated by strength and is nullified by equal amount of strength of opponent.

Makashi's weakness against strong attacks can be explained by the fact that Makashi practitioners tend to use only one hand but Dooku has shown to utilize two-handed grip just as good. Regardless, one handed grip offers other advantages like increased maneuverability, which can actually help against strong opponent, so it doesn't matter.

In certain circumstances one style can be better than the other but on even ground no style is superior.

Board Walker
Dooku was overpowered by Anakin not because the former uses Makashi, but because Dooku is physically weaker than Anakin. It has nothing to do with the style.

Arhael
"His own elegant Makashi simply did not generate the kinetic power to meet Djem So head-to-head. Especially not while also defending against a second attacker.

It was time to alter his own tactics.

He dropped low and spun into another reverse ankle-sweep-the weakness of Djem So was its lack of mobility-that slapped Skywalker's boot sharply enough to throw the young Jedi off balance..."

Notice that it doesn't say that Makashi is weak against Djem So. Only that it doesn't generate enough kinetic energy to meet Djem So head to head. That is a specific circumstance. Dooku was still able to counter Anakin and expose a weakness of Djem So.

DarthAnt66
"Count Dooku's calm and measured moves make him a master of Makashi. However, the form lacks great power and Dooku met his match against the force of Anakin Skywalker's style."
--Star Wars: Mysterious of the Jedi

Board Walker
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
"Count Dooku's calm and measured moves make him a master of Makashi. However, the form lacks great power and Dooku met his match against the force of Anakin Skywalker's style."
--Star Wars: Mysterious of the Jedi

Makashi lacks power when directly fighting Djem So head on, as the prior post explained.

Makashi is not weak towards Djem So, or any style that focuses on strong attacks. Like any fighter it adapts to its' circumstances, and outmaneuvers or parries the opponents blows instead of fighting head to head.

In the novel this is explained that Anakin was becoming stronger, and faster every second with no limit to his growth. Dooku on the other hand was exhausted from fighting two opponents, and that his force reserves were nearly empty.

Dooku lost because he lacked the force stamina to out last Anakin, and stamina is one of Makashi's strong points. In conclusion Dooku lost because Anakin had infinite force reserves, which no one else in the mythos possesses. If Dooku were fighting Windu I doubt he would have had the same issues he did with Anakin, this is because Windu does not have an infinite reserve of force energy or a limitless power growth while in combat. Dooku would have focused on exploiting the weakness of a heavy kinetic form, such as the user exhausting their own self at a rapid rate, lack of maneuverability, and lack of speed.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Arhael
"His own elegant Makashi simply did not generate the kinetic power to meet Djem So head-to-head. Especially not while also defending against a second attacker.

It was time to alter his own tactics.

He dropped low and spun into another reverse ankle-sweep-the weakness of Djem So was its lack of mobility-that slapped Skywalker's boot sharply enough to throw the young Jedi off balance..."

Notice that it doesn't say that Makashi is weak against Djem So. Only that it doesn't generate enough kinetic energy to meet Djem So head to head. That is a specific circumstance. Dooku was still able to counter Anakin and expose a weakness of Djem So.


thumb up

And to follow up on that, he especially had difficulty meeting Djem So "head to head" "while also defending against a second attacker."

That closes this argument.


Originally posted by DarthAnt66
"Count Dooku's calm and measured moves make him a master of Makashi. However, the form lacks great power and Dooku met his match against the force of Anakin Skywalker's style."
--Star Wars: Mysterious of the Jedi

LOL

Yeah because Dooku never came across that style before! LOL

He's faced Anakin's style many times agianst Anakin himself, and in their final fight in TCW he was handling Anakin's style just fine.

So this quote on top of being outright stupid and making no sense at all, is just plain outdated.

Marco1907
Originally posted by Board Walker
Many of you are attributing Dooku's loss, and past poor performances against Anakin in the physical department due to his use of Makashi. This is entirely incorrect as Makashi has nothing to do with this correlation, and it is far more likely due to Anakins VAST force reserves in tandem with his physical youth. This disparity in strength is further amplified by the fact that Dooku is past his physical prime, and has to use his LIMITED force reserves to temporarily match Anakin in a sustained physical brawl.

Do any of you honestly believe that if Dooku was using Djem So, or Juyo he would have fared any better against Anakin? I think not.

The fact of the matter is that Dooku utilizes Makashi because it is so compatible with his power set, and helps make up for his lack of infinite force reserves as well as his physical youth. Makashi allows him to utilize his finite force reserves in a far more efficient manner, this is why he uses it.

If Anakin were to utilize Makashi he would by no means be at a disadvantage versus physically strong opponents, this is because he possess infinite force reserves and vast physical strength.

You've got a point there.

Makashi is more like a solution to Dooku's old age (he was even older than Sidious 63 -83), it is very economic and does not exhaust him unlike other lightsaber forms would, but still against opponents that are using physical attributes as a main force, his lack of age and his limited force reserves shows up as a problem.

Originally posted by Board Walker
Makashi lacks power when directly fighting Djem So head on, as the prior post explained.

Makashi is not weak towards Djem So, or any style that focuses on strong attacks. Like any fighter it adapts to its' circumstances, and outmaneuvers or parries the opponents blows instead of fighting head to head.

In the novel this is explained that Anakin was becoming stronger, and faster every second with no limit to his growth. Dooku on the other hand was exhausted from fighting two opponents, and that his force reserves were nearly empty.

Dooku lost because he lacked the force stamina to out last Anakin, and stamina is one of Makashi's strong points. In conclusion Dooku lost because Anakin had infinite force reserves, which no one else in the mythos possesses. If Dooku were fighting Windu I doubt he would have had the same issues he did with Anakin, this is because Windu does not have an infinite reserve of force energy or a limitless power growth while in combat. Dooku would have focused on exploiting the weakness of a heavy kinetic form, such as the user exhausting their own self at a rapid rate, lack of maneuverability, and lack of speed.

About Mace, I've to disagree. Mace channeling the dark side energy of his rival, if he channels Dooku's dark side, he can outclass him like he did to Sidious.

And I agree that Anakin has greater physical and better force reserve than Dooku, however no one has it ? You're overrating Anakin here, if you really believe that. Anakin failed to overpower Obi-Wan, or he would never overpower someone like Maul or even Savage Opress.

Marco1907
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
-

So because he landed a kick which tripped Dooku over the stairs behind him, that gives Anakin a physical advantage? Even though the kick wasn't anywhere near as deadly or effective as the one Dooku landed on Anakin in ROTS?

Or what about all the deadly kicks Dooku's landed on Ventress and Kenobi, flooring them? Is Dooku their physical superior now? And where is Obi-Wan and Ventress's clear physical inferiority when they fight Skywalker?

I actually don't have a problem calling Anakin "stronger" than Dooku. I do have a problem with making it into a weakness for Dooku.

And btw, these "kicks" have absolutely nothing to do with Djem So and Makashi, so you're yet to prove Makashi is "weak" to Djem So and therefore loses by default.







Oh yeah, I completely agree Anakin's always been a threat to Dooku in "Sabers", but Dooku's always been the overall superior combatant thanks to his far superior force mastery.

But none of that makes Dooku "weak" to physical attacks or kinetic energy.



You're treating the Savage Opress thing as though it was a completely fair one on one situation.

Dooku was dancing around 2 of them in a cramped space after being surprise ambushed by both of them.

You're also assuming Dooku "had to" resort to Force Powers to deal with Opress.

In a one on one Dooku even after being disarmed (by hitting the wall behind him fighting 2 opponents in a cramped space) could have dodged Opress's attacks until he got his Saber back.


You are not seeing the gif I showed you because you are too biased.

Anakin is not only kicked Dooku, also catch his neck and he was choking him. And Dooku had to use force powers to free himself, he couldn't save himself even like Obi-Wan did in RotS duel at mustafar.

As for Savage, it is nothing to do with being 2 v 1, Savage didn't throwed him because Ventress was there, Ventress was lying on the ground, when the time Savage attacked Dooku.
If you really going to depend on this excuse, you make no sense at all.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Marco1907
You've got a point there.

Makashi is more like a solution to Dooku's old age (he was even older than Sidious 63 -83), it is very economic and does not exhaust him unlike other lightsaber forms would, but still against opponents that are using physical attributes as a main force, his lack of age and his limited force reserves shows up as a problem.

Marco I think your intelligent and knowledgeable on Star Wars, but you really need to let this "weakness" of Dooku's go.

There's simply not enough evidence. The primary examples are when Dooku's facing multiple opponents in a row. In those situations you have to let Dooku off, as he will obviously be expending more of his Force Reserves than he would in a one on one scenario.

You also have to allow for the incredible raw power Anakin has at his disposal, and not put that down to Dooku's "weakness."



Originally posted by Marco1907
About Mace, I've to disagree. Mace channeling the dark side energy of his rival, if he channels Dooku's dark side, he can outclass him like he did to Sidious.


Debatable. Different styles clash in different ways just like Kenobi's, Anakin's and Dooku's styles all clashed with each other in different ways.

Plus if your using the whole "Vapaad channels the Opponent's Dark Side" idea, then Sidious clearly has much more powerful dark side attacks for Mace to deflect than Dooku would, giving Mace the bigger advantage against Sidious.


Originally posted by Marco1907
And I agree that Anakin has greater physical and better force reserve than Dooku, however no one has it ? You're overrating Anakin here, if you really believe that. Anakin failed to overpower Obi-Wan, or he would never overpower someone like Maul or even Savage Opress.


Like I said clash of styles. What better way to engage someone of Anakin's strength, than with a purely defensive form?

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Marco1907
You are not seeing the gif I showed you because you are too biased.


I've seen it many many times.

Originally posted by Marco1907
Anakin is not only kicked Dooku, also catch his neck and he was choking him. And Dooku had to use force powers to free himself, he couldn't save himself even like Obi-Wan did in RotS duel at mustafar.


Again you're clinging to this idea that Dooku is weak to physical attacks by pointing out the few times he's been hit.

Mace Windu kicked Sidious to the floor disarming him.

Does that make Sidious weak to physical attacks?

Ventress has kicked and floored Kenobi, knocking him completely helpess for a few seconds. Dooku also hurt Kenobi's ribs and sent him flying with a kick almost sending him off the ledge. Does that make Kenobi weak to physical attacks?

Dooku kicked and floored Ventress several times. Does that make Ventress weak to physical attacks?

At least Dooku in that GIF you showed was still able to hold on to his weapon and fight back with his force powers- I.e. not completely helpless. At least Dooku was able to get back up right away once Anakin was off him. Anakin could do no such thing when Dooku kick floored him in ROTS. Anakin was floored and completely helpless for a good 10 seconds.

Like I've already said Marco, I do think you're smart and knowledgeable on SW, but you're just too obsessed in showing Dooku has this weakness that doesn't exist. The true facts are it's usually Dooku rendering his opponents useless with physical attacks, and the other way around is very very rare. But you're obseesing over those rare moments because of this 1 line in the ROTS novel that you and many others have completely exaggerated and taken completely out of context.

Originally posted by Marco1907
As for Savage, it is nothing to do with being 2 v 1, Savage didn't throwed him because Ventress was there, Ventress was lying on the ground, when the time Savage attacked Dooku.
If you really going to depend on this excuse, you make no sense at all.


You've already said Dooku is old and has less force reserves than someone like Anakin, and yet you don't think continuously dodging Ventress, then Opress, then Ventress, then Opress again will have any effect on Dooku's force reserves?

You think the exact same thing would happen in a pure one on one?

Besides Opress is a physical beast, whose disarmed Kenobi in just a few strokes one time, and that was one on one. Again does that make Kenobi weak against physical attacks?


So like I said, you really need to put things in context and and stop being obsessed with this "weakness" Dooku has. His age might come into effect in an extended fight or against multiple opponents, but not in an ordinary one on one scenario.

Marco1907
As physically Obi-Wan >= Ventress > Dooku.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Marco1907
As physically Obi-Wan >= Ventress > Dooku.


LOL What kind of order is that and exactly what evidence is it based off? When Dooku's the one who injured Kenobi's stomach and sent him flying off the ledge with a kick.

And Dooku's the one who kept kick flooring Ventress.

Marco1907
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
LOL What kind of order is that and exactly what evidence is it based off? When Dooku's the one who injured Kenobi's stomach and sent him flying off the ledge with a kick.

And Dooku's the one who kept kick flooring Ventress.

Due to Durability.

How does Dooku is kicking someone indicates his physical strength ? It's indicates his skill and speed, especially he is always kicking via fencing, not martial arts.

Ventress has good force combat feats, against Nightbrothers and Clone troopers, I don't recall any force combat feat (without lightsaber) of Dooku.

Same as Obi-Wan, he resisted Anakin's, Maul's, Savage's blows. Resisted torture etc.

Arhael
As for Savage, it is nothing to do with being 2 v 1, Savage didn't throwed him because Ventress was there, Ventress was lying on the ground, when the time Savage attacked Dooku.
If you really going to depend on this excuse, you make no sense at all.
If you re-watch the fight, you will see that Dooku did not get disarmed by his attack. Dooku blocked attack but it was so strong that it took him off feat. He dropped lightsaber as result of hitting the wall behind him. This is entirely circumstantial. In other situation Dooku could have had better feet position to remain in place or simply somersault backward.

Also, lets not forget that Opress disarmed Kenobi and Ventress as well, which makes your assessment even more pointless. They never dealt with such strong opponents, it takes getting used to.

Marco1907
Originally posted by Arhael
If you re-watch the fight, you will see that Dooku did not get disarmed by his attack.Dooku blocked attack but it was so strong that it took him off feat. He dropped lightsaber as result of hitting the wall behind him. This is entirely circumstantial. In other situation Dooku could have had better feet position to remain in place or simply somersault backward.



Lol.

So they have to fight in a place which includes no wall ? Like a cliff ? Alright then, Savage is capable of killing Dooku with one stroke....

Great logic.

Originally posted by Arhael

Also, lets not forget that Opress disarmed Kenobi and Ventress as well, which makes your assessment even more pointless. They never dealt with such strong opponents, it takes getting used to.

Savage has advantage over Ventress as well, I never said Savage is inferior to Ventress.

As for Obi-Wan, they caught him by surprise, Obi-Wan was not expecting Savage, he was expecting to fight with Maul alone.

Then in florrum, Obi-Wan sliced Savage's left arm which shows that Obi-Wan is capable of defeating Savage Opress.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Marco1907

Ventress has good force combat feats, against Nightbrothers and Clone troopers, I don't recall any force combat feat (without lightsaber) of Dooku.




He's shown great resistance when Anakin choked him in Crisis on Naboo and tried to kill him. Once he got rid of Anakin, he just casually got back up. He wasn't still choking, was lying helpless for a few seconds and didn't seem in any pain at all.

Compare that to other combatants who just get kicked and take ages to get back up and are still seen struggling. Like when Dooku grabbed and chucked Kenobi to the floor in the final seaosn of TCW.

I don't know why you bring up (without a lightsbaer) when it's combat with Lightsaber we almost always discuss.

Fact is in all the fights between Anakin, Obi-Wan, Ventress and Dooku, it's Dooku who's shown the most powerful physical attacks, and the best resistance to physical attacks.

Anyway from now on refer to my thread on the matter.

Marco1907
@DARTH POWER

As I said before, Dooku saved himself with a force attack from Anakin's choke not via physical durability. That shows Dooku's force superiority, not a physical feat.

On the other hand, Obi-Wan saved himself with a kick from the same choke move of Anakin, that's shows a physical durability feat and puts Kenobi higher than Dooku in terms of physical.

http://i760.photobucket.com/albums/xx244/Karasakal/obi-wankicks_zps1743c9b7.gif

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Marco1907
@DARTH POWER

As I said before, Dooku saved himself with a force attack from Anakin's choke not via physical durability. That shows Dooku's force superiority, not a physical feat.

On the other hand, Obi-Wan saved himself with a kick from the same choke move of Anakin, that's shows a physical durability feat and puts Kenobi higher than Dooku in terms of physical.

http://i760.photobucket.com/albums/xx244/Karasakal/obi-wankicks_zps1743c9b7.gif


Nope. Just because Kenobi managed to kick Skywalker off him, whilst Dooku resorted to a more lethal Force attack (one which Kenobi is not capable of) does not mean Dooku wasn't capable of also landing a kick.

In fact just look at that GIF of yours properly. Look at Kenobi's face expression how he's struggling badly with that choke. The look at Dooku's in "the same choke" and you will see Dooku clearly struggled less, and after taking a kick no less. Whilst Kenobi was brought to his knees by that choke. Dooku wasn't he was already floored via a kick. (And don't get me into the number of times Dooku's kicked Anakin, Kenobi and Ventress).

So if anything, that Proves Dooku is more durable than Obi-Wan. And has certainly showed a heck of a lot more strength in their confrontations.

Again your looking for any example anywhere trying to prove this ridiculous theory that Dooku is weak to physical attacks, when it's usually his opponents who are incapable of handling Physical attacks from him.

It's getting quite ridiculous now when you're saying things like "Hey look Dooku got hit that one time therefore he's weak to physical attacks!!!"


Anyway you can discuss this further in the Dooku vs Kinetic Energy thread I've made.

Marco1907
By the way,

Dooku wasn't making an effort to kill Anakin as he was Obi-Wan. Dooku could defeat Anakin via force attacks, as he did to Obi-Wan.

Here is the quote ;

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Marco1907
By the way,

Dooku wasn't making an effort to kill Anakin as he was Obi-Wan. Dooku could defeat Anakin via force attacks, as he did to Obi-Wan.

Here is the quote ;


Not sure. Anakin seems to have tanked quite a bit of TK off Dooku during their TCW fights.

Perhaps Anakin's natural power allows him to tank TK better than Obi-Wan can.

But yeah still Dooku's force powers have always given him the definite edge over Anakin. During the Clone Wars at least.

Arhael
Originally posted by Marco1907
By the way,

Dooku wasn't making an effort to kill Anakin as he was Obi-Wan. Dooku could defeat Anakin via force attacks, as he did to Obi-Wan.

Here is the quote ;
This is one of the silliest arguments. First, disarming and disabling techniques are much more effective than killing techniques because they don't require opponent to overreach to strike vital body parts. For instance targeting opponent's hands is much easier than trying to reach body or head, which are farther away.

That is why Anakin in anger did not kill Dooku but chopped his hands away. That is why Windu disarmed Palpatine instead of killing. That is why Luke disarmed Vader instead of killing. That is why Kenobi didn't kill Opress. That is why Kenobi didn't kill Anakin. The bottom line is that ones you create an opening, it's a matter of choice which body part to strike after, and guess what, wrists are easier target.

And even if there is a chance that a Force user will accidentally kill someone in lightsaber combat. I will remind you that it is Force user. They have Force. They anticipate things. They can stop the attack causing shin strike that will disable opponent but not kill.

Marco1907

Marco1907
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Nope. Just because Kenobi managed to kick Skywalker off him, whilst Dooku resorted to a more lethal Force attack (one which Kenobi is not capable of) does not mean Dooku wasn't capable of also landing a kick.

In fact just look at that GIF of yours properly. Look at Kenobi's face expression how he's struggling badly with that choke. The look at Dooku's in "the same choke" and you will see Dooku clearly struggled less, and after taking a kick no less. Whilst Kenobi was brought to his knees by that choke. Dooku wasn't he was already floored via a kick. (And don't get me into the number of times Dooku's kicked Anakin, Kenobi and Ventress).

So if anything, that Proves Dooku is more durable than Obi-Wan. And has certainly showed a heck of a lot more strength in their confrontations.

Again your looking for any example anywhere trying to prove this ridiculous theory that Dooku is weak to physical attacks, when it's usually his opponents who are incapable of handling Physical attacks from him.

It's getting quite ridiculous now when you're saying things like "Hey look Dooku got hit that one time therefore he's weak to physical attacks!!!"


Anyway you can discuss this further in the Dooku vs Kinetic Energy thread I've made.

Do you know Dooku was 83 years old by RotS right ? How do you expect him to be physically good as Obi-Wan ?

You still didn't provide any force combat (without lightsaber) feat of Dooku, and you can't because he doesn't have. As I said multiple times, Dooku's kicks depends on fencing and finding an opening thats why all of his kicks happened in lightsaber combats, he is not kicking like Obi-Wan, Ventress, Anakin etc.

Now if you have any force combat feat of Dooku, such as Obi-Wan has this ;

http://i760.photobucket.com/albums/xx244/Karasakal/blz08_zpsaacc6217.jpg

http://i760.photobucket.com/albums/xx244/Karasakal/blz09_zpsfcaf2a63.jpg

Then we can talk about ''your theory'' which is Dooku doesn't have any weakness and physically stronger than Obi-Wan...

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by Marco1907




When did he do that ? I don't remember any.

Like all throughout this Vid:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvomH9iKQo8

No where is he flung the way Kenobi is, except for with the FL/TK Combo.



Originally posted by Marco1907
Force powers doesn't work like that I believe, that doesn't give Anakin any advantage here ;

http://i760.photobucket.com/albums/xx244/Karasakal/obi-wananakinforce_zps7b002efe.gif


That means their force push was equal, but that scene doesn't prove or disprove that Anakin is better capable of tanking greater TK Attacks than Obi-Wan.


Originally posted by Marco1907
And also Dooku defeated Anakin via force here ;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=aqeEjv1_eOc#t=99

Dooku used force choke right after Anakin's force wave, it doesn't saved Anakin at all.


Lol, yeah after battering him with the help of Magnaguards. Even then it again took a combined TK + FL attacks to KO him. And Dooku even looked kind of exhausted after that.





Originally posted by Marco1907
Do you know Dooku was 83 years old by RotS right ? How do you expect him to be physically good as Obi-Wan ?

Through Force enhanced strength and durability.

Originally posted by Marco1907
You still didn't provide any force combat (without lightsaber) feat of Dooku, and you can't because he doesn't have.


LOL I don't need to because you've yet to prove Dooku is weak without his Lightsaber.

But the only thing I can think off the top of my head is how Dooku easily KO's a Pirate when escaping them with Obi-Wan and Anakin in "The Gungun General."

Originally posted by Marco1907
As I said multiple times, Dooku's kicks depends on fencing and finding an opening thats why all of his kicks happened in lightsaber combats, he is not kicking like Obi-Wan, Ventress, Anakin etc.

Holding a Lightsaber in one hand doesn't magically increase or decrease anyone's strength or durability.

Fact is Dooku smacked Kenobi's stomach and through him to the ground. Kenobi could hardly take that attack.

Fact is Dooku struggled far less with Anakin choking him than Kenobi did.

Fact is Dooku has kicked these guys much further and with much more deadly effect than vice versa.

Originally posted by Marco1907
Now if you have any force combat feat of Dooku, such as Obi-Wan has this ;

http://i760.photobucket.com/albums/xx244/Karasakal/blz08_zpsaacc6217.jpg

http://i760.photobucket.com/albums/xx244/Karasakal/blz09_zpsfcaf2a63.jpg

Then we can talk about ''your theory'' which is Dooku doesn't have any weakness and physically stronger than Obi-Wan...


Urmm... How about the fact that he battered physically Obi-Wan in their fight. Despite the fact that Obi-Wan had aid from Anakin making it harder for Dooku to land those blows.

Your argument is a fail I'm afraid.

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.