Meetra Surik Vs Vitiate

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Fated Xtasy
Meetra as a wound(Kotor2) Vs emperor Vitiate

Rules: No wtf-telepathy-pwn by vitiate

Meetra is fully prepped and bloodlusted.

Location: Trayus Core No amp/Nexus

Lightsabers

Force Powers

All-out.

Let the shit storm begin!! fly my pretties fly!

Emperordmb
Sabers: Meetra stomps
Force: Vitiate stomps
All-out: Vitiate takes this rather solidly.

AncientPower
KotOR 2 Exile /w prep might win, Force Enlightenment mode and Sever Force could kill him.

That's a big big maybe though.

NewGuy01
Vitiate stomps, in the long run. Even if he can't TP her, his FLS took out both Revan and the Hero of Tython--Both of which are well greater than Meetra.

Sinious
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Vitiate stomps, in the long run. Even if he can't TP her, his FLS took out both Revan and the Hero of Tython--Both of which are well greater than Meetra.

And I think he has a solid chance at just TPing her ass.

Emperordmb
Originally posted by Sinious
And I think he has a solid chance at just TPing her ass.
Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Rules: No wtf-telepathy-pwn by vitiate

Sinious
Oh sorry, I forgot about that.



Originally posted by Emperordmb
Sabers: Meetra stomps


BTW, until we see Vitiate use lightsaber in a fight, these remarks will remain as pure assumptions.

Emperordmb
Originally posted by Sinious
BTW, until we see Vitiate use lightsaber in a fight, these remarks will remain as pure assumptions.
Not really a remark as much as it is a legitimate claim.

Sinious
which still proves nothing about Vitiate's lightsaber usage.

Emperordmb
Originally posted by Sinious
which still proves nothing about Vitiate's lightsaber usage.
I still lack any reason or proof to believe Vitiate holds legitimate skill with a blade.

I'm not about to assume he's an expert or a master with a blade when he has zero showings with one.

Sinious
I've never claimed that he is a master of dueling. Its an unknown area of the character and his overall power and mastery of the force would suggest that he is indeed a great duelist as it is the case with most characters but again this would be an assumption too so I'm not using it as an argument. So you claiming Vitiate sucks with the saber is a bigger assumption that shouldn't be taken seriously at all. smokin'

AncientPower
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Vitiate stomps, in the long run. Even if he can't TP her, his FLS took out both Revan and the Hero of Tython--Both of which are well greater than Meetra.
Nerfed Meetra =/= Full Meetra.

If she can solo the Triumvirate, including Sion and Traya, in arguably the most powerful Dark Side nexus of all time and a gravity well. In their own turf and stomp them all, no way does she struggle with Imp Guards and A DC Member.

The only logical conclusion is that due to a lack of a Wound, which is apparently non-existent during the events of the novel, She was no longer somewhat protected from the largest effects of a nexus, such as Malachor.

Thus she suffered the debuff that many other Jedi did on Kaas.

I really don't subscribe to the Revan > Meetra talk at all, they were quite clearly meant to be equals where KotOR II comes in.

After all Traya clearly states that she was the greatest student she had ever trained.

Emperordmb
Originally posted by Sinious
I've never claimed that he is a master of dueling. Its an unknown area of the character and his overall power and mastery of the force would suggest that he is indeed a great duelist as it is the case with most characters but again this would be an assumption too so I'm not using it as an argument. So you claiming Vitiate sucks with the saber is a bigger assumption that shouldn't be taken seriously at all. smokin'
It is not my burden to prove Vitiate lacks skills as much as it is someone arguing for Vitiate's sabers skills to prove they are even existent in the first place. Without any evidence as proof, at the very least it cannot be proven that Vitiate has any more skills than the average run of the mill Jedi/Sith, if any. People like Meetra however tend to have the capability to stomp the average duelist.

Sinious
I'll remind you the next time you attempt to use common sense to assume something about a character then.

Like I said, Vitiate's general mastery of the force shouldn't automatically declare him as a great duelist but you're using the lack of information against the character. That reminds me of someone you disagree with quite often.

carthage
Originally posted by Sinious
Appeal to ignorance]

Sounds about right.

Nalaniel
Vitiate roflstomps. ^^

Nephthys
Spite, I'd say.

psmith81992
Vitiate does't need sabers to stomp the Exile.

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by Sinious
I'll remind you the next time you attempt to use common sense to assume something about a character then.

Like I said, Vitiate's general mastery of the force shouldn't automatically declare him as a great duelist but you're using the lack of information against the character. That reminds me of someone you disagree with quite often.
The Exile is already a proven master of almost every form while Vitiate isn't even implied to be a master of one. No common sense doesn't say that we need to support him in him being superior in sabers.

psmith81992
No she's not. Gameplay mechanics are not canon.

Sinious
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
The Exile is already a proven master of almost every form while Vitiate isn't even implied to be a master of one. No common sense doesn't say that we need to support him in him being superior in sabers.

I've never said he is a master of dueling. Saying that Maetra stomps though, is pure assumption as we have no information on how good Vitiate is with a saber.

Nephthys
Logically speaking, Vitiate really should be alright with a blade just because of his sheer power. That he fought the HoT while so close to her also suggests great speed.

Sinious
thumb up

Kotor3
Originally posted by AncientPower
Nerfed Meetra =/= Full Meetra.
I really don't subscribe to the Revan > Meetra talk at all, they were quite clearly meant to be equals where KotOR II comes in.

According to?

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by Nephthys
Logically speaking, Vitiate really should be alright with a blade just because of his sheer power. That he fought the HoT while so close to her also suggests great speed.
Being all right doesn't change the fact that Surik actually has feats to back up her claim, but Vitiate doesn't. The fact that during the end of the duel Vitiate put so much distance between him and the Hero of Tython and relies on his Force abilities also doesn't lend credit to him being anywhere beyond average in sabers, where as the Exile is a master.

I also like how the claim, "Powerful people are great in sabers," is one I've never seen supported anywhere. There's a difference between aptitude towards learning and actually having that skill.
Originally posted by Sinious
I've never said he is a master of dueling. Saying that Maetra stomps though, is pure assumption as we have no information on how good Vitiate is with a saber.
Meetra stomps because she is a master, while Vitiate for the most part is not shown to be. While I'm sure he knows how to use one, he's not shown to be anywhere near the Exile in terms of skill with a lightsaber, and considering this is a forum duel, that's enough for me.

psmith81992
Again, gameplay mechanics are not canon.

Sinious
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
The fact that during the end of the duel Vitiate put so much distance between him and the Hero of Tython and relies on his Force abilities also doesn't lend credit to him being anywhere beyond average in sabers, where as the Exile is a master.

Every time someone uses a force push is a signal of weakness in saber skills then.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice

Meetra stomps because she is a master, while Vitiate for the most part is not shown to be. While I'm sure he knows how to use one, he's not shown to be anywhere near the Exile in terms of skill with a lightsaber, and considering this is a forum duel, that's enough for me.

This is answered earlier.

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by Sinious
Every time someone uses a force push is a signal of weakness in saber skills then.

I said because Vitiate tried to keep distance and rely on the Force. His saber isn't even out during the end of the duel. Or more likely was knocked away.

With what? Meetra's feats with sabers is well above Vitiate's feats with sabers. So saying that she stomps there is a safe presumption. Saying, "Nope, that's speculation," doesn't change the fact that evidence actually supports the Exile and not Vitiate.

Sinious
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
I said because Vitiate tried to keep distance and rely on the Force. His saber isn't even out during the end of the duel. Or more likely was knocked away.


Ignoring the fact that they dueled for a long time and speculating that tiny detail isnt gonna make me change my mind.



I do agree that Meetra Surik is above Vitiate in this regard based on feats. However, I don't see how she stomps where HoT couldn't as HoT is well above Meetra, especially in dueling.

Fated Xtasy
Originally posted by psmith81992
Again, gameplay mechanics are not canon.

You're adorable, these "Game mechanics" are supported by quotes from Kreia and the Jedi council

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=597037

This thread explains, that Meetra can simply observe an Opponent's form and use it with great expertise, that surprised even the masters of the order.

Originally posted by Sinious
I've never said he is a master of dueling. Saying that Maetra stomps though, is pure assumption as we have no information on how good Vitiate is with a saber.

You too, are basing your argument on assumption. Vitiate has no showing with a lightsaber and to say "He's a master of the force so he knows how to use one" is a ridiculous argument to make, He has no feats or accolades claiming or making him out to be a powerful swordsmen. i - like Freshestslice - believe him to be a capable duelist, but when it comes to dueling prowess Meetra has much more backing her up. regardless of what you believe the fact remains that Vitiate has no feats in terms of lightsabers, while Meetra has already done much more than him in terms of dueling. everything about the fight with the HoT is pure speculation as it is mostly game mechanics.

Sinious
Can you quote where I've claimed anything about his dueling skills? I've only stated that it would be logical to think that he is good with the saber but because this is an assumption, I won't use it as an argument.

You're the one who is making assumptions as you "believe" him to be a capable duelist or when you think that he will be stomped by anyone in a saber duel.

If this was what you meant by "schooling some plebs on Meetra", you have failed greatly my friend.

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by Sinious
Ignoring the fact that they dueled for a long time and speculating that tiny detail isnt gonna make me change my mind.

Why would Vitiate distance himself unless he was:

A) Overwhelmed
B) Disarmed
C) More confident in his Force abilities


Lol at the HoT being above Meetra in saber skill, which is what we are talking about. The HoT is not well above Meetra in sabers, though they are above them it's not by so large a gap as you make it seem. What they are miles above her in is Force, which coincidentally, Vitiate was using during this duel. Do I think the Exile will defeat Vitiate? No. Do I think if it were in pure sabers she would? Yes. Did the HoT duel Vitiate in pure sabers? No. So I'm not sure why this point was even brought up.

Sinious
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Why would Vitiate distance himself unless he was:

A) Overwhelmed
B) Disarmed
C) More confident in his Force abilities



The answer would be C most likely.



I don't know what to tell someone who thinks the Jedi Knight's main mastery is not saber skills but force powers.

Fated Xtasy
Originally posted by Sinious
Can you quote where I've claimed anything about his dueling skills? I've only stated that it would be logical to think that he is good with the saber but because this is an assumption, I won't use it as an argument.

You continuously try to argue that he is skilled with the blade which is logical but to say he can beat Meetra or anyone who is above her dueling wise is foolish when he has no feats in it. It's like saying Cin Drallig > Exar Kun in swordsmenship simply because Drallig has hype as a great duelist - yet, he has no feats supporting those claims and was slaughtered by Anakin quite easily. It's not logical and i'm not calling Vitiate featless - he should be skilled with the blade. but i can't judge or side with him because he has no feats with the blade all we have is speculation. I apologize if i came off a bit aggressive in my previous post, it was not my intention.



I never implied such a thing Sinious, if you're talking about the chat comment i was only joking erm You know i'm not one to use the "SLAUGHTERHOUSE" Or "ROFLSTOMPS" Arguments sad



http://37.media.tumblr.com/613165379ec28f1bb223242924338153/tumblr_n26cjfKsLv1soqenlo1_250.gif

But you still have much to learn..

Based
Originally posted by psmith81992
No she's not. Gameplay mechanics are not canon.

I'm pretty sure there's dialogue of every Jedi Master you save teaching you those forms.

Regardless I agree, Meetra solidly takes sabers and gets pwned everywhere else.

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by Sinious
The answer would be C most likely.


I'm sorry that's pure speculation, still doesn't refute anything I said and supports the claim that Vitiate isn't as skilled with sabers. T

Lol, who said the HoT had the best Force powers offensive wise, or that they specialised in it? Speed, Tutaminis, Shields, using the Force without gesturing, ragdolling Vitiate, TKing bridges, and collapsing ceilings, and Force enhanced strength, all things the Exile has never shown eclipsing, all Force oriented, all things the HoT has. Not to mention the fact that literally everyone in game talks about how the HoT is the most powerful Jedi seen in generations and is the greatest and most powerful in the Order by the end of Act II, Act I even, but hey, the Exile might be more powerful in the Force than the Hero of Tython. Me guessing would be pure speculation.

Selenial
Originally posted by AncientPower
Nerfed Meetra =/= Full Meetra.

If she can solo the Triumvirate, including Sion and Traya, in arguably the most powerful Dark Side nexus of all time and a gravity well. In their own turf and stomp them all, no way does she struggle with Imp Guards and A DC Member.

The only logical conclusion is that due to a lack of a Wound, which is apparently non-existent during the events of the novel, She was no longer somewhat protected from the largest effects of a nexus, such as Malachor.

Thus she suffered the debuff that many other Jedi did on Kaas.

I really don't subscribe to the Revan > Meetra talk at all, they were quite clearly meant to be equals where KotOR II comes in.

After all Traya clearly states that she was the greatest student she had ever trained.

Don't try.

I've explained this to them hundreds of times, only to be met with "There's no proof you're wrong" despite the fact that I've posted a personal email with the very author of the Novel, saying it's a strong theory.

Emperordmb
The wound theory is a strong one... the "Meetra was uber weakened by Nathema" theory is not a strong one.

Selenial
Originally posted by Emperordmb
The wound theory is a strong one... the "Meetra was uber weakened by Nathema" theory is not a strong one.

That was never a theory I used.... Only that she was weakened by Natheema (obviously) and didn't have time to recover before being thrust into Dromund Kaas...

Emperordmb
Originally posted by Selenial
That was never a theory I used.... Only that she was weakened by Natheema (obviously) and didn't have time to recover before being thrust into Dromund Kaas...
She had two days or more to recover.

Nephthys
It took her two days to decrypt Dromund Kaas' location, that seems like ample time to me.

Edit: Beaten.

Sinious
Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
You continuously try to argue that he is skilled with the blade which is logical but to say he can beat Meetra or anyone who is above her dueling wise is foolish when he has no feats in it. It's like saying Cin Drallig > Exar Kun in swordsmenship simply because Drallig has hype as a great duelist - yet, he has no feats supporting those claims and was slaughtered by Anakin quite easily. It's not logical and i'm not calling Vitiate featless - he should be skilled with the blade. but i can't judge or side with him because he has no feats with the blade all we have is speculation. I apologize if i came off a bit aggressive in my previous post, it was not my intention.

I never implied such a thing Sinious, if you're talking about the chat comment i was only joking erm You know i'm not one to use the "SLAUGHTERHOUSE" Or "ROFLSTOMPS" Arguments sad




Wow, seriously? You couldnt quote anything firstly, and also, I've stated several times that Meetra is superior in sabers since Vitiate is featless and said that making any comments on Vitiate's saber skills is pure assumption. What we are debating here is whether Meetre would stomp Vitiate in a duel or not in case you haven't read the prior posts.




Not really. You have failed again bro.



Originally posted by FreshestSlice
I'm sorry that's pure speculation, still doesn't refute anything I said and supports the claim that Vitiate isn't as skilled with sabers. T

You presented 3 options and Ive stated my opinion. Yet its either A or C.




Yes, HoT is very powerful. This doesn't change the fact that he is a dueling based character and his saber skills are his main area. Vitiate being able to duel with him for a decent amount of time should at least give hints about whether he would be stomped by Meetra or not. Speed factor is very important as well and in favor of Vitiate in this case.

The healthiest way to approach this subject would be accepting the uncertainty which is what I've been defending from the beginning.

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by Sinious

You presented 3 options and Ive stated my opinion. Yet its either A or C.

Okay.


What does the hero of Tython's fighting style have to do with Vitiate's? In almost every encounter with him, he keeps distance and attacks with the Force. So I'm sure, that when he meets one of the best duelist in the galaxy, the last thought on his mind is that he should go saber to saber with them, especially since he didn't even have a saber out during the end of duel. It's not like he chose that one random moment to put it away.

No it's not. It's an indication that Vitiate used the Force to maintain distance, illusions, Lightning, TK, etc. These are all things we see him use, in cutscene to maintain distance between himself and the Hero of Tython.

The healthiest way to approach this is to treat Vitiate like literally everyone else is treated here and saying that unless he even has the accolade, which he doesn't, he won't compare in something the Exile is proven to have excelled in.

Sinious
Originally posted by FreshestSlice



What does the hero of Tython's fighting style have to do with Vitiate's? In almost every encounter with him, he keeps distance and attacks with the Force. So I'm sure, that when he meets one of the best duelist in the galaxy, the last thought on his mind is that he should go saber to saber with them, especially since he didn't even have a saber out during the end of duel. It's not like he chose that one random moment to put it away.

No it's not. It's an indication that Vitiate used the Force to maintain distance, illusions, Lightning, TK, etc. These are all things we see him use, in cutscene to maintain distance between himself and the Hero of Tython.



None of the things you have listed proves Vitiate's lack of dueling skills. This was exactly the case with Sidious before the PT came out and look how it turned out to be.



Lack of knowledge doesn't mean that a character is lacking skill in that area. As I've said before countless times, due to feats, the Exile takes sabers but when a character is this powerful in the force and comes from the sith culture, lack of info on his saber skills shouldn't be an excuse to say that he would be stomped by an opponent.

Fated Xtasy
Originally posted by Sinious
Wow, seriously? You couldnt quote anything firstly, and also, I've stated several times that Meetra is superior in sabers since Vitiate is featless and said that making any comments on Vitiate's saber skills is pure assumption. What we are debating here is whether Meetre would stomp Vitiate in a duel or not in case you haven't read the prior posts.

Not really. You have failed again bro.

I was only stating my opinion on the matter, I didn't quote anything because I knew there wasn't anything to quote, Vitiate's duel with HoT is full of speculation and as such is subject to debate. I wasn't saying anything that went against you. erm you are defending his lightsaber abilities aren't you? How am I in the wrong?

Honestly, I've been nice, I haven't implied or even stated that Meetra would stomp Vitiate - how about you read my second post?- nor have I even stated that she'd even win. Everything I said in chat was a joke, im surprised you took it to heart and I never even said she'd win the whole fight and stomp!. I'm feeling kind of attacked by you dude even though I - in my opinion - haven't said anything that's bad or contradictory. erm but If you feel I did, then I sincerely apologize, it was not my intention to get you mad or attack you.

Sinious
Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
I was only stating my opinion on the matter, I didn't quote anything because I knew there wasn't anything to quote, Vitiate's duel with HoT is full of speculation and as such is subject to debate. I wasn't saying anything that went against you. erm you are defending his lightsaber abilities aren't you? How am I in the wrong?

Honestly, I've been nice, I haven't implied or even stated that Meetra would stomp Vitiate - how about you read my second post?- nor have I even stated that she'd even win. Everything I said in chat was a joke, im surprised you took it to heart and I never even said she'd win the whole fight and stomp!. I'm feeling kind of attacked by you dude even though I - in my opinion - haven't said anything that's bad or contradictory. erm but If you feel I did, then I sincerely apologize, it was not my intention to get you mad or attack you.


Not at all. I was replying with the same sarcastically mean attitude you had which I knew was entirely a joke. rolling on floor laughing

I didn't take it to heart and I also apologize and sorry to see you feel attacked here. My reaction was to you stating that I claimed Vitiate would win in a duel where I have said Meetra has the upper hand due to feats several times.

Even if you didn't present counter arguments, you have said that what I claim is foolish and wrong. My claim was that Meetra wouldn't be able to stomp Vitiate so I think its pretty organic that I thought you believe Vitiate would get stomped. Other than that, nothing bothered me. (Except this spite thread)

And no, Im not defending his saber abilities. Im simply saying that we have information on this matter.

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by Sinious
None of the things you have listed proves Vitiate's lack of dueling skills. This was exactly the case with Sidious before the PT came out and look how it turned out to be.

You mean the part where Sidious was shown to be bellow both Mace and Yoda in sabers, so resorted to the Force? Yeah. I remember that.


The absence of evidence is indeed is not the evidence of absence. But the fact is, plenty of "powerful people" in the sith culture have risen through the ranks while being well below the Exile in sabers. In a pure sabers fight, they would be stomped. I'm not going to assume Vitiate would be any different just because he's Vitiate. He has to prove himself just like everyone else, and the Exile has proved herself to be among the best in sabers. At least in KotOR II.

Nephthys
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Being all right doesn't change the fact that Surik actually has feats to back up her claim, but Vitiate doesn't. The fact that during the end of the duel Vitiate put so much distance between him and the Hero of Tython and relies on his Force abilities also doesn't lend credit to him being anywhere beyond average in sabers, where as the Exile is a master.

I also like how the claim, "Powerful people are great in sabers," is one I've never seen supported anywhere. There's a difference between aptitude towards learning and actually having that skill.

Great power does tend to make you better in lightsaber combat. Kas'im claimed that in general it was the most important factor in a duel, with exceptions. All I meant that I doubt a being as immensely powerful as Vitiate is truly the limp-wristed weakling that many on these boards make him out to be.

Vitiates exact abilities in close combat are vague, true. All we have is him losing to the HoT in a duel while possessing Kira, keeping up with the HoT in their fight and a vagfue story of him disarming and killing one of his best fights with his own sword. But still, with his power I doubt he's shit.

Based
Originally posted by Emperordmb
The wound theory is a strong one... the "Meetra was uber weakened by Nathema" theory is not a strong one.

Agree, Surik relied on her companions for her strength. DK may or may not have weakened her but without her companions she really isn't anything special.

Trocity
Originally posted by Nephthys
with his power I doubt he's shit.

True. People make Vitiate out to be garbage with a lightsaber. He most likely isn't an elite swordsman but I'm sure he can at least hold his own against accomplished duelists.

Based
Well when he's in VS topics he's usually against top tiered Jedi/Sith. Thus he is definitely a mook with shit skills when in comparison to them.

Dude got disarmed by a saber throw.

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by Nephthys
Great power does tend to make you better in lightsaber combat. Kas'im claimed that in general it was the most important factor in a duel, with exceptions. All I meant that I doubt a being as immensely powerful as Vitiate is truly the limp-wristed weakling that many on these boards make him out to be.

Vitiates exact abilities in close combat are vague, true. All we have is him losing to the HoT in a duel while possessing Kira, keeping up with the HoT in their fight and a vagfue story of him disarming and killing one of his best fights with his own sword. But still, with his power I doubt he's shit.
I already admitted that he probably knew/knows how to use a lightsaber. Just not anywhere near as well as the Exile without further showings.

Nephthys
Well I was never arguing that he'd beat her. I just wanted to address the conceot that Vitiate is some Trebor level feeb.

Originally posted by Based
Well when he's in VS topics he's usually against top tiered Jedi/Sith. Thus he is definitely a mook with shit skills when in comparison to them.

Dude got disarmed by a saber throw.

And Sidious got Judo-thrown through a table by a pregnant woman. When you're not expecting things, even the best get blind-sided.

red8
The Exile and Kreia are some of my favorite characters in the Star Wars mythos. I place KotOR2 Exile slightly above Revan.

WIth that being said, Vitiate should win this. The Exile got ragdolled by Nihilus before he tried to devour her. I don't think Vitiate could duplicate this feat, but I believe he could overwhelm her with his lightning just like he did to Revan.

In a pure saber match, Vitiate is unknown, while the Exile has been proven to be extremely talented.

I do think it's foolish to assume that Vitiate isn't a skilled duelist though. Sidious had a few gaps where didn't use his lightsaber for years and he still kicked ass. I feel that someone as powerful as Vitiate would be somewhat skillful.

FreshestSlice
KotOR II Exile has nothing that puts her on Revan's level.
I'm loling at the prospect that Vitiate couldn't ragdoll her. He hasn't been static for 300 years. He's been constantly growing stronger. Either way, he was comparable to Nihilus before. I doubt he couldn't replicate his TK feat, which Nihilus did while weakened not at full strength.

AncientPower
Originally posted by Kotor3
According to?

Their primary teacher.

It was always Revan and the Exile, they won the Mandalorian Wars, the Exile was forgotten about due to the Jedi Civil War taking place directly afterwards.

It was always clear to me that Revan was the famous poster-boy but everyone forgets he had help.

Meetra was a dedicated Light Side master, her abilities confirmed well before the novel. Though I see that debating such is just going to be sideswiped with 'lolgamemechanics' when that is not strictly true at all.

Meetra has exceptional feats, even her Force Ghost was powerful enough to feed Revan the required energy and mental fortitude to control Vitiate in subtle ways. All of this on Dromund Kaas, for three centuries.

But people love to low-ball KotOR characters as much as their fans love to place them on an unreachable pedestal.

It's a shame that all the characters bar Revan get ignored in terms of genuine feats.

AncientPower
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
KotOR II Exile has nothing that puts her on Revan's level.
Funny because Meetra has access to the most powerful Light Side techniques where Revan doesn't. But let's not allow some form of debate to jog our memory.

red8
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
KotOR II Exile has nothing that puts her on Revan's level.

All of her feats and accolades from KotOR 2 are at the bare minimum on par with the feats for Revan from KotOR. IMO the Exile is more impressive than Revan.



Nihilus doesn't have Vitiate's knowledge and mastery of the Dark Side, but he has much more raw power. Without prep, and without a nexus, we haven't seen Vitiate replicate Nihilus' feats. We've only seen Vitiate surpass Nihilus with prep and sorcery. And I'm not trying to take away anything from Sith Sorcery.



Nihilus did that before he tried to drain the Exile. He was hungry because Kreia tricked him sure, but he was still very powerful.

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by AncientPower
Funny because Meetra has access to the most powerful Light Side techniques where Revan doesn't. But let's not allow some form of debate to jog our memory.
Force Enlightenment is more gameplay mechanic than the saber forms you were just denouncing. As for the other Light Side techniques, Revan actually does have access to them, as he has complete mastery of both sides of the Force. It may not make sense, but he has shown that feat.
Originally posted by red8
All of her feats and accolades from KotOR 2 are at the bare minimum on par with the feats for Revan from KotOR. IMO the Exile is more impressive than Revan.

Revan Reborn is more powerful than KotOR Revan. Her being on par with KotOR Revan doesn't make her more powerful than Revan at his peak.


After Nathema, Vitiate grew considerably in power, and aside from godly TK Nihilus is an unknown. What I can say is that given the Exile was able to hold off Nihilus for a long amount of time, the one she faced was below the Vitiate Revan, Scourge, and she faced.


No, Nihilus is constantly starving, draining himself, and was weakened before KotOR II began. By the time he faced the Exile, he was in agony and was weakened considerably. Even then he completely dominated the duel with the Exile and only finally died when his accelerated self drainage became too much for him to continue defending himself.

DarthAnt66
roll eyes (sarcastic) They were on the Maelstrom Nebula, not Dromund Kaas.

Sinious
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
You mean the part where Sidious was shown to be bellow both Mace and Yoda in sabers, so resorted to the Force? Yeah. I remember that.


Wow, so your revelation in PT was that Sidious indeed sucks as a duelist? If not, what are you trying to prove here?



thumb up



Can you give any examples on these sith? People who are at least close to Vitiate level?




Which is why I think the Exile has the upper hand here. Still doesn't make sense to assume she would stomp the Emperor.

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by Sinious
Wow, so your revelation in PT was that Sidious indeed sucks as a duelist? If not, what are you trying to prove here?

Not what I said in the slightest. The point is being the most powerful won't guarantee you are relatively close to other masters in lightsaber skills. Besides, Sidious has proven himself over and over again. I don't have to assume he's a master.


Lulz. You know I can't do that.



I think you're taking the phrase "____ stomps," a little to seriously at this point. I'm not going to speak for dmb, but from what I've seen, that means they have much better showings and skill. And while I'd like to believe Vitiate is a competent swordsmen, the Exile has better feats. The closest I've seen Vitiate ever come to a pure saber duel with anyone competent was with Kira, and he lost that one.

Selenial
Again, why are you all assuming that Strength in the force is Lightsaber mastery? The Tor era were completely different to the PT era in principles, PT Jedi specialized in bladework so heavily because to use the force was to kill, when they were not facing Sith. Their bladework allowed them to disarm and best as many opponents as they needed to without Killing.

In the Cold war and previous Eras, we have seen that a lot of people who are very adept in the force chose to forsake Lightsaber dueling. Vitiate himself (IIRC) is described in the Revan novel as someone who wouldn't have practiced Sabers, relying on his force abilities to win.

A lot of Jedi Consulars and Sith inquisitors did the same thing, they learned Niman and some slightly more advanced techniques like Trakata in an effort to make Lightsabers a far less substantial part of dueling.

Darth Vowran is a prime example of this.

Emperordmb
Vowrawn doesn't impress me at all power wise. He seems to get where he is through alliances, knowledge, and cunning, rather than martial might and overwhelming strength in the force.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Selenial
Again, why are you all assuming that Strength in the force is Lightsaber mastery?

"As you already know, the Force is the real key to victory in any confrontation." - Kas'im.

It's not a question of lightsaber mastery, it's a question of overwhelming power. Like above, Bane was beating Kas'im because he was just more powerful than him.

Zett
I have no idea about sabers, but Vitiate stomps in the Force and all-out.

AncientPower
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Force Enlightenment is more gameplay mechanic than the saber forms you were just denouncing. As for the other Light Side techniques, Revan actually does have access to them, as he has complete mastery of both sides of the Force. It may not make sense, but he has shown that feat.

Revan Reborn is more powerful than KotOR Revan. Her being on par with KotOR Revan doesn't make her more powerful than Revan at his peak.

Force Enlightenment does not only appear as a game mechanic in KotOR II actually. It is mentioned in Revan in regards to the Exile(somewhat) and appears in the KotOR CG, she was an Enlightened Jedi which reflects the fact that she became a Force Ghost.

Force Enlightenment is just the in-game term to describe a Jedi who has reached Enlightenment, reflected in it's other appearances and descriptions.

You also ignore her innate talent to use Sever Force which despite popular assumption, she can use because Vima Sunrider taught her to control it.

Her ability to use Moving Meditation in combat, also appears somewhat in the novel. It is a logical assumption considering the time she analyses and engages the mercs in less than a second. Also later manages to simultaneously duel amped IGs without a scratch and have the spare time to command T3-M4.

I could go on a personal rant about how the 'game mechanics' of their canon alignment path, reflect in their genuinely canon appearances.

Simply put, I definitely believe that Revan and the Exile were on similar footing. Karpyshyn just ignored every other character in his personal quest to wank Revan and Vitiate simultaneously.

Does Reborn Revan later surpass her? yes he does, because she dies and he gains a three century power curve. Not surprising.

Also the whole 'Revan mastered both sides of the Force' thing, hyperbolic statements ftw? There is no quote at all that states such. Do I think his unique life gained him a similarly unique connection to the Force? yes, Do I see any reason to believe he mastered both sides? not at all.

Sinious
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Not what I said in the slightest. The point is being the most powerful won't guarantee you are relatively close to other masters in lightsaber skills. Besides, Sidious has proven himself over and over again. I don't have to assume he's a master.



And I've never said its a guarantee. My entire point is based on not claiming anything.




Of course you can't. smile Thats because there isnt an example of what you're depicting in SW mythos.





Fair enough, but still any claims such as "Vitiate would get stomped" are pure assumptions until any further information is released.

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by AncientPower
Force Enlightenment does not only appear as a game mechanic in KotOR II actually. It is mentioned in Revan in regards to the Exile(somewhat) and appears in the KotOR CG, she was an Enlightened Jedi which reflects the fact that she became a Force Ghost.

Force Enlightenment is just the in-game term to describe a Jedi who has reached Enlightenment, reflected in it's other appearances and descriptions.

I said it was more game mechanic than anything else. I didn't call it one.

Never denied this either. I'm well aware that she has the ability to use Sever Force.

That's amazing. Never denied any of that either.

Revan Reborn was above her before "he dies." His understanding of the Force is beyond anything Surik has been stated to poses. And KotOR II had more Revan wank than anything I've ever seen. While I agree Karpyshyn is an awful writer, it's his place to set where a character is powerwise in his novel. The Exile's most powerful opponent that they fought fairly was below Darth Revan, let alone KotOR Revan, who is stated to be more powerful. Revan Reborn is more powerful than KotOR Revan. The only reason I find the Exile comparable with him is her slaughter through the Academy.

Using the Light and the Dark simultaneously in/on a nexus is enough for me.

@Sinious: TOR alone is full of examples of people who are like that Baras, Thanaton, Angral, etc. . None of them are on Vitiate's level, true, but all of them were decent swordsmen who's Force abilities far eclipsed them.

As to the rest, I'll agree to disagree. I think in a forum setting, it's safe to make that assumption.

Sinious
Originally posted by FreshestSlice

@Sinious: TOR alone is full of examples of people who are like that Baras, Thanaton, Angral, etc. . None of them are on Vitiate's level, true, but all of them were decent swordsmen who's Force abilities far eclipsed them.

As to the rest, I'll agree to disagree. I think in a forum setting, it's safe to make that assumption.

All of these names are decent duelers. TOR era indeed has categorized the sith in this sense but like you said, these are all force usage based characters who also know how to use a lightsaber. Vitiate is far above them and thinking that he would be different instead of better doesn't make sense to me. Meetra has proven here self as a duelist which matters most, I still don't agree with the word "stomp" here.

Yes lets agree to disagree.

AncientPower
Except for the fact that by being Enlightened she thus gains the statement: "The end result was an "enlightened" Jedi, having unlocked and harnessed fully the light side of the Force."

Essentially she was a master of the Light Side of the Force, which makes perfect sense after soloing a Sith Order responsible for one of the most complete purges of the Jedi Order ever.

I also believe that Meetra's ghost didn't just provide the energy Revan needed to wage a subtle war of wills, but also amped him with her own power.

Though we are going into the realm of theory crafting.

Meetra is just a more powerful Light Side user IMO than Revan is.

Stating a nexus-nerf Meetra is less powerful than a Dark Side user on a nexus in which she has had a century to prepare on is a highly circumstantial statement at best.

But back to the main topic, Vitiate without prep vs Meetra with prep is highly dangerous to him as well prepped Moving Meditation may provide a speed blitz, as she has displayed before.

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by AncientPower
Except for the fact that by being Enlightened she thus gains the statement: "The end result was an "enlightened" Jedi, having unlocked and harnessed fully the light side of the Force."

Essentially she was a master of the Light Side of the Force, which makes perfect sense after soloing a Sith Order responsible for one of the most complete purges of the Jedi Order ever.

I'm not sure where you see me denying this. KotOR Revan is a master of the Light Side and I said the Exile was on par with him. erm

No. Whenever Revan was running low, so to speak, she restored him.
"As the Emperor fed off him, Meetra was allowing Revan to feed off her. Her sustenance strengthened his resolve whenever he grew weak, refreshing and restoring him so he could continue his never-ending mental war."

Sure.

It's not really. Scourge is a Dark Siderish(Revan's influence maybe hampering this) on a Dark Sider nexus and they fought together, and Scourge is undoubtedly powerful according to Revan. Nyriss is just a bamf at Lightning.

In all out? Lolno. If the HoT is not blitzing a weakened Vitiate, there's no way a fully powered one will be blitzed by Surik, when the HoT literally had a saber pointed at his face an inch or two away. This is without prep, by the way. Scourge says the Emperor is unaware of their presence.

DarthAnt66
Nice to see Freshest sticking up for Revan. thumb up
Though you won't really get anywhere besides wasted time with Ancient.

AncientPower
Sticking up for Revan? so because I don't believe he is Yoda level despite Yoda being the second most powerful Jedi of all time I am denouncing him? you fanboys are hilarious.

DarthAnt66
Your Meetra wank is amateur and requires further practice. You pick and choose what parts of a novel is canon and not based off of gameplay from a 2004 video-game.

AncientPower
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
I'm not sure where you see me denying this. KotOR Revan is a master of the Light Side and I said the Exile was on par with him. erm

No. Whenever Revan was running low, so to speak, she restored him.
"As the Emperor fed off him, Meetra was allowing Revan to feed off her. Her sustenance strengthened his resolve whenever he grew weak, refreshing and restoring him so he could continue his never-ending mental war."

Sure.

It's not really. Scourge is a Dark Siderish(Revan's influence maybe hampering this) on a Dark Sider nexus and they fought together, and Scourge is undoubtedly powerful according to Revan. Nyriss is just a bamf at Lightning.

In all out? Lolno. If the HoT is not blitzing a weakened Vitiate, there's no way a fully powered one will be blitzed by Surik, when the HoT literally had a saber pointed at his face an inch or two away. This is without prep, by the way. Scourge says the Emperor is unaware of their presence.

No statement provides the evidence that Revan is a light side master, nor a dark side master, unless of course you have something I've missed.

An ability that is as situ as Oneness moments is not evidence enough for me to suggest that Revan has mastered both sides of the Force.

There is however a whole bunch of evidence that supports Meetra Surik being a master of the Light Side.

Skipping to the end point, I don't believe HoT>Meetra or HoT>Revan for that matter. He or she is an exceptional lightsaber master, probably superior to them both. More powerful in the Force? I doubt that.

DarthAnt66
What the **** are you smoking? Everything you said there is wrong. Everything.
An entire village in Ethiopia just burned down there only computer after processing your argument above.

AncientPower
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Your Meetra wank is amateur and requires further practice. You pick and choose what parts of a novel is canon and not based off of gameplay from a 2004 video-game.

Actually there is no 'wank' and I find it funny that you of all people denounce me when you have repeatedly ignored evidence yourself in countless debates.

Get back to me when Revan stops being your personal deity.

Meetra Surik is powerful and not a red shirt, the canon is blatantly obvious in this regard, sorry that I don't worship the poster-boy like you do.

DarthAnt66
You put Kun on tier with Vitiate. Yeah, forgive me when not taking you serious in a "debate."
Meetra Surik is implied to be on the level of Lord Scourge (Revan novel). Yes, power. Extremely powerful? Not at all.

NewGuy01
You of all people saying that is pretty funny.

AncientPower
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
What the **** are you smoking? Everything you said there is wrong. Everything.
An entire village in Ethiopia just burned down there only computer after processing your argument above.

Racist and lacking any genuine debate, you're funny in a really sad way, I'll give you that.

Scourge praise and some Revan praise is not evidence enough for me to state that an obvious Lightsaber practitioner is a superior Force Master than the two most powerful Jedi of the OSW era.

*Insert argument revolving around HoT defeating a weakened Voice here*

Yes I did see that part coming from a mile away.

Apparently the difference between me and you is that I take actual feats above hyperbolic statements.

DarthAnt66
"... the most powerful Jedi Masters...."
―Star Wars: The Ultimate Visual Guide

"A champion of the light."
―Bastila Shan (Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan)

"It was easy to understand how Scourge could be drawn to him; Revan's command of the Force was greater then that of anyone else she had ever met."
―Meetra Surik (Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan)


"The ruling Dark Lord of the Sith is a master of the Dark Side of the Force."
―Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide

"At the height of the Jedi Civil War, the Sith Empire covers nearly one-third of the known galaxy, with many worlds hotly contested between the Republic and the Sith Empire. Some worlds join the Sith Empire willingly, while others are taken by force. Dozens if not hundreds of Sith apprentices learn the ways of the dark side of the Force, and a few even rise to the rank of Sith Master, training students of their own. With legions of armored troopers, spreading throughout the galaxy, all led by masters of the Force, the Sith Empire seems unstoppable."
―Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by AncientPower
Racist and lacking any genuine debate, you're funny in a really sad way, I'll give you that.

Scourge praise and some Revan praise is not evidence enough for me to state that an obvious Lightsaber practitioner is a superior Force Master than the two most powerful Jedi of the OSW era.

*Insert argument revolving around HoT defeating a weakened Voice here*

Yes I did see that part coming from a mile away.

Apparently the difference between me and you is that I take actual feats above hyperbolic statements.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f6/t586426.html

Also, what forum are you from? swtor? comicvine?

AncientPower
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
You put Kun on tier with Vitiate. Yeah, forgive me when not taking you serious in a "debate."
Meetra Surik is implied to be on the level of Lord Scourge (Revan novel). Yes, power. Extremely powerful? Not at all.

Oh sorry, I forgot hyperbole > feats in your opinion.

Lord Scourge's OWN opinion is evidence enough for you to state that Meetra = Scourge? funny. Inb4 Imp Gs argument.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by AncientPower
Oh sorry, I forgot hyperbole > feats in your opinion.

Lord Scourge's OWN opinion is evidence enough for you to state that Meetra = Scourge? funny. Inb4 Imp Gs argument.
Your argument for putting Kun on Vitiate tier is hyperbole from TCSWE, not a feat. no expression


Scourge's opinion is supported with them doing equally as awful against Darth Nyriss.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by NewGuy01
You of all people saying that is pretty funny.
Are those biographies I made on Star Wars Forums even up anymore? stick out tongue (If that's what your referring to.)

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by AncientPower
No statement provides the evidence that Revan is a light side master, nor a dark side master, unless of course you have something I've missed.

I lol'd. Did you read the novel? I highly doubt Scourge would say any of the things he did about Revan's understanding of the Force and command of it if he wasn't a master. I also highly doubt the Jedi Council would make him a master...if he wasn't a master.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
I lol'd. Did you read the novel? I highly doubt Scourge would say any of the things he did about Revan's understanding of the Force and command of it if he wasn't a master. I also highly doubt the Jedi Council would make him a master...if he wasn't a master.
He uses Meetra's performance against the Imperial Guard in his argument, but dismisses her performance against Darth Nyriss. erm

AncientPower
Originally posted by DarthAnt66

"... the most powerful Jedi Masters...."
―Star Wars: The Ultimate Visual Guide

"A champion of the light."
―Bastila Shan (Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan)

"It was easy to understand how Scourge could be drawn to him; Revan's command of the Force was greater then that of anyone else she had ever met."
―Meetra Surik (Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan)


"The ruling Dark Lord of the Sith is a master of the Dark Side of the Force."
―Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide

"At the height of the Jedi Civil War, the Sith Empire covers nearly one-third of the known galaxy, with many worlds hotly contested between the Republic and the Sith Empire. Some worlds join the Sith Empire willingly, while others are taken by force. Dozens if not hundreds of Sith apprentices learn the ways of the dark side of the Force, and a few even rise to the rank of Sith Master, training students of their own. With legions of armored troopers, spreading throughout the galaxy, all led by masters of the Force, the Sith Empire seems unstoppable."
―Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide

Two IU opinions and hyperbole statements from the KotOR CG? If we want to take KotOR CG statements as all encompassing canon statements I guess we can start sticking the Triumvirate on the top 3 Sith lists then, but I don't think that would fly, do you?

Has Darth Revan absorbed planets? has he unleashed FLS storms that wiped out legions or a Dark Council? Has he ever used Sorcery?

I could go on and on, but again I will always take genuine feats above hyperbole any day. If Darth Revan was a master of the Dark Side, how come he got dominated by the Emperor in an all out fight in his most powerful incarnation?

AncientPower
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f6/t586426.html

Also, what forum are you from? swtor? comicvine?
A very nice thread, well made, unfortunately for all we know HoT was a DS.

Neither, but I hardly see how this is relevant.

DarthAnt66
So if you aren't Darth Nihilus, you aren't a master of the Darkside?
And Revan is stated to be superior to Nihilus actually via the narration.

He used a Force Lightning storm to utterly dominate some Rakata-patrols (who are resistant to the Force) and rancors, so yes.

I see you have never read the first Darth Bane novel. Yes.


Hyperbole? No. IU? Yes, but it's coming from the exact character you say can rival Revan. In addition, you ignore the statement from TUVG, and we have another from the narrator himself:

"The Jedi's command of and connection to the Force was unlike anything Scourge had sensed in anyone else. Even though Revan was constantly drugged, it was impossible not to sense his strength."
―Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan


This forum recognizes the lightside path as canon, and the HoT has even better feats as DS. erm


Dumbass, Revan wasn't even a Sith Lord yet. He was merely a corrupted Jedi Knight. *facepalm*
We later see Revan able to hold his own against Vitiate, only getting dominated through extremely powerful Force lightning.

AncientPower
Originally posted by DarthAnt66

So if you aren't Darth Nihilus, you aren't a master of the Darkside?
And Revan is stated to be superior to Nihilus actually via Meetra's own thoughts. wink

He used a Force Lightning storm to utterly dominate some Rakata-patrols (who are resistant to the Force) and rancors, so yes.

I see you have never read the first Darth Bane novel. Yes.


Hyperbole? No. IU? Yes, but it's coming from the exact character you say can rival Revan. In addition, you ignore the statement from TUVG, and we have another from the narrator himself:

"The Jedi's command of and connection to the Force was unlike anything Scourge had sensed in anyone else. Even though Revan was constantly drugged, it was impossible not to sense his strength."
―Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan


This forum recognizes the lightside path as canon, and the HoT has even better feats as DS. erm


Dumbass, Revan wasn't even a Sith Lord yet. He was merely a corrupted Jedi Knight. *facepalm*

If you think Darth Nihilus is the only one who has done that then I don't even know....

Yeh that does not compare, it compares more with Bane's own similar feat.

Meetra Surik always saw Revan as a man to look up to, at least somewhat. If she said Revan was the most powerful being in the universe would that also be valid?

Scourge didn't exactly have the biggest exposure to the Empire's leaders by that point, nor anyone else.

Oh and I have read PoD, but having knowledge of it and actually practicing it are two entirely different things.

Indeed, he/she does, but whilst Neph does an excellent job compiling feats and statements I still don't see that rivaling what Meetra and Revan have done themselves.

I see your comprehension of the English language is below par, please come back to me when you realize that statement refers to Revan novel fight (Hint:'most powerful incarnation'), not the Revan and Alek 'fight'.

DarthAnt66
Others who have consumed planets? Please enlighten me on such others.
Sidious could only destroy fleets. Vitiate required a ritual to drain a planet. And those are the only two close.

I don't really understand what you are getting at here. Exar Kun doesn't even have lightning feats in general, lmfao.

Read the sentence again then. It's not Meetra's personal opinion, hence the narrator describing Meetra as "her."
It is rather instead the narrator stating Meetra is not surprised over Scourge's awe.

Knowledge on how to use them still counts in my book.
Though, such is irrelevant. Aleema Keto knew sorcery, I guess she is among the best. erm

Seriously? You think Tython would be toyed by Nyriss?

I was hoping such wasn't true, because then you would confirm my suspicions of you trolling. SWTORE states, "he even nearly assassinated the Sith Emperor."
He was able to contend with the Emperor on even grounds until a Force Lightning Storm was unleashed, something that was ultimately more powerful then his lightsaber or tutaminis.

---------- ---------- ----------
Honestly, I'm not going to waist my time with someone who ignores the entire Revan novel, then decides to debate Meetra vs Revan. Like, seriously?:

"A burst of purple lightning arched down the steps, catching both men in the chest. They barely had time to scream before they were turned into charred and smoking husks...
She raised her free hand above her hand above her head and fired off another burst of lightning. Both Scourge and Meetra threw themselves clear of the deadly electrical bolt, but in doing so gave Nyriss the early advantage. Before they could recover, she leapt at them. Despite her withered appearance, she moved with all the speed and ferocity of a dark side warrior in her prime. She landed right between the two adversaries, her blade flashing back and forth in a series of slashes and cuts that immediately threw her two opponents on the defensive. Scourge barely managed to parry the first wave of her assault, unable to even thing about countering with an attack of his own. Another quick thrust foced him off balanced and he staggered backwards. Nyriss seized on the opportunity to focus all her efforts on breaking through Meetra's defenses. The Jedi was clearly outmatched; though she managed to hold her ground, she was forced down on one knee. In the awkward position her right flank was exposed, and Nyriss brought her blade in to deliver a crippling cut. At the same time, Scourge lashed out with the Force, catching Nyriss flush in the center of her chest. An ordinary foe would have been thrown clear across the room, but Nyriss instinctively threw up a Force barrier to protect herself, absorbing and redirecting the brunt of the impact. Even so, Scourge's attack knocked her off balance just enough time to send her lightsaber wide of the mark, giving Meetra the opportunity she needed to scramble away to safety. Scourge rushed forward, hoping to drive Nyriss back into a corner, but she mat his charge was an invisible wave of rippling energy. It picked Scourge and tossed him head-over-heals, sending him crashing into the wall. Dazed, he looked up just in time to see another bolt of violet lightning to catch Meetra in the chest. Like Nyriss, she threw up a barrier to save herself from the worst of it, but she was still knocked from her feet. 'Did you think I would be as easy to defeat as Xedrix?' Nyriss shouted, raising her lightsaber triumphantly above her head. The air around her began to crackle and grow hot as she gathered herself for the killing blow. Scourge felt the energy building inside her, and he knew he was powerless to stop it. Nyrisss was too powerful; her command of the dark side was too strong."
―Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan

...compared to this:

"Revan's raw power in the Force bends Nyris's Sith lightning back at her, utterly destroying the Sith Lord."
―Star Wars The Essential Reader's Companion
----- ----- -----
I'm off to bed though, so I won't reply until later then (if you do respond).

AncientPower
Originally posted by DarthAnt66

Others who have consumed planets? Please enlighten me on such others.
Sidious could only destroy fleets. Vitiate required a ritual to drain a planet. And those are the only two close.

I don't really understand what you are getting at here. Exar Kun doesn't even have lightning feats in general, lmfao.

Read the sentence again then. It's not Meetra's personal opinion, hence the narrator describing Meetra as "her."
It is rather instead the narrator stating Meetra is not surprised over Scourge's awe.

Knowledge on how to use them still counts in my book.
Though, such is irrelevant. Aleema Keto knew sorcery, I guess she is among the best. erm

Seriously? You think Tython would be toyed by Nyriss?

I was hoping such wasn't true, because then you would confirm my suspicions of you trolling. SWTORE states, "he even nearly assassinated the Sith Emperor."
He was able to contend with the Emperor on even grounds until a Force Lightning Storm was unleashed, something that was ultimately more powerful then his lightsaber or tutaminis.

---------- ---------- ----------
Honestly, I'm not going to waist my time with someone who ignores the entire Revan novel, then decides to debate Meetra vs Revan. Like, seriously?:

"A burst of purple lightning arched down the steps, catching both men in the chest. They barely had time to scream before they were turned into charred and smoking husks...
She raised her free hand above her hand above her head and fired off another burst of lightning. Both Scourge and Meetra threw themselves clear of the deadly electrical bolt, but in doing so gave Nyriss the early advantage. Before they could recover, she leapt at them. Despite her withered appearance, she moved with all the speed and ferocity of a dark side warrior in her prime. She landed right between the two adversaries, her blade flashing back and forth in a series of slashes and cuts that immediately threw her two opponents on the defensive. Scourge barely managed to parry the first wave of her assault, unable to even thing about countering with an attack of his own. Another quick thrust foced him off balanced and he staggered backwards. Nyriss seized on the opportunity to focus all her efforts on breaking through Meetra's defenses. The Jedi was clearly outmatched; though she managed to hold her ground, she was forced down on one knee. In the awkward position her right flank was exposed, and Nyriss brought her blade in to deliver a crippling cut. At the same time, Scourge lashed out with the Force, catching Nyriss flush in the center of her chest. An ordinary foe would have been thrown clear across the room, but Nyriss instinctively threw up a Force barrier to protect herself, absorbing and redirecting the brunt of the impact. Even so, Scourge's attack knocked her off balance just enough time to send her lightsaber wide of the mark, giving Meetra the opportunity she needed to scramble away to safety. Scourge rushed forward, hoping to drive Nyriss back into a corner, but she mat his charge was an invisible wave of rippling energy. It picked Scourge and tossed him head-over-heals, sending him crashing into the wall. Dazed, he looked up just in time to see another bolt of violet lightning to catch Meetra in the chest. Like Nyriss, she threw up a barrier to save herself from the worst of it, but she was still knocked from her feet. 'Did you think I would be as easy to defeat as Xedrix?' Nyriss shouted, raising her lightsaber triumphantly above her head. The air around her began to crackle and grow hot as she gathered herself for the killing blow. Scourge felt the energy building inside her, and he knew he was powerless to stop it. Nyrisss was too powerful; her command of the dark side was too strong."
―Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan

...compared to this:

"Revan's raw power in the Force bends Nyris's Sith lightning back at her, utterly destroying the Sith Lord."
―Star Wars The Essential Reader's Companion
----- ----- -----
I'm off to bed though, so I won't reply until later then (if you do respond).

Sidious was slowly absorbing the entire life force of Byss.

Exar Kun absorbed the Massassi and between his rage and the WoL practically annihilated the surface of Yavin IV.

Plagueis had plans and apparently the means to, absorb a planet.

Exar Kun does have lightning feats, but this does confirm my suspicions that you know hack all about his power:

"Kyp stretched out his arm, lightning like black cracks in the Force rendered Luke helpless, another of Kun's gifts to his new apprentice."

She was among the best actually, her weakness was that it was her only source of power, but her illusions rivaled that of any other Sorcery practitioner.

HoT wouldn't as evidently his/her master's mental ward kept him/her immune to the mental influences of the Dark Side, more importantly Kaas' Nexus and the Emperor's mental influence.

He was able to contend with the Emperor? that is funny, because as far as I saw, he was on the backfoot for 95% of their fight and was saved twice by his allies from assured death.

I am not ignoring the Revan novel, you simply refuse to believe anyone could be on par with your almighty Lord Revan, sorry I don't take the word of fanboys.

Revan can draw on both sides of the Force, the nexus wouldn't effect him nearly as badly as someone who outright refuses the Dark Side entirely.

DarthAnt66
Seriously? Had plans? That doesn't count for jack shit. I had plans to take Neph on a date yesterday, never happened.
Yes, I already mentioned Sidious, and he didn't consume the planet, let alone numerous planets.
Exar Kun didn't come close to consuming Yavin 4. He merely consumed the race via a ritual, not his own power.

Someone else unleashing lightning does not make it a lightning feat for Exar Kun. erm


Are we talking about Aleema Keto here?


The Emperor's mental influence was not effecting Meetra, and the Kaas' Nexus merely made Meetra shiver, it did not hamper her abilities to such a degree her powers went from being able to get stomped by Nyriss to being capable of beating her.


Revan charged the Emperor, the Emperor pushed him backwards.
Revan unleashed a Force in Balance blast, the Emperor flew backwards.
As of right now, it's tied. The Emperor then unleashed lightning bolts at Revan.
The final lightning back was reflected back at the Emperor, with now Revan having the advantage.
Revan was then ultimately beaten by a Force Lightning storm he had no methods to defend against.


No person on this forum besides Selenial puts Meetra on the same tier as Revan. No one.


He draws on both sides equally, but also a greater command of the Force then Meetra. His Lightside energy would be hampered.
Once again, thinking the nexus changed the outcome from Meetra stomping Nyriss to vis-versa is laughable.

Emperordmb
Originally posted by AncientPower
She was among the best actually, her weakness was that it was her only source of power, but her illusions rivaled that of any other Sorcery practitioner.
Dafuq?!! Keto's illusions are nothing to Zannah, Andeddu, or Wyyrlok.

DarthAnt66
Don't be too hard on the disabled. He's from swtor forums.

AncientPower
Originally posted by DarthAnt66

Seriously? Had plans? That doesn't count for jack shit. I had plans to take Neph on a date yesterday, never happened.
Yes, I already mentioned Sidious, and he didn't consume the planet, let alone numerous planets.
Exar Kun didn't come close to consuming Yavin 4. He merely consumed the race via a ritual, not his own power.

Someone else unleashing lightning does not make it a lightning feat for Exar Kun. erm


Are we talking about Aleema Keto here?


The Emperor's mental influence was not effecting Meetra, and the Kaas' Nexus merely made Meetra shiver, it did not hamper her abilities to such a degree her powers went from being able to get stomped by Nyriss to being capable of beating her.


Revan charged the Emperor, the Emperor pushed him backwards.
Revan unleashed a Force in Balance blast, the Emperor flew backwards.
As of right now, it's tied. The Emperor then unleashed lightning bolts at Revan.
The final lightning back was reflected back at the Emperor, with now Revan having the advantage.
Revan was then ultimately beaten by a Force Lightning storm he had no methods to defend against.


No person on this forum besides Selenial puts Meetra on the same tier as Revan. No one.


He draws on both sides equally, but also a greater command of the Force then Meetra. His Lightside energy would be hampered.
Once again, thinking the nexus changed the outcome from Meetra stomping Nyriss to vis-versa is laughable.

Having the means to does however.

Sidious was absorbing the life force of the planet as his personal luxury, without ritual and could control it all quite easily.

He absorbed the death of all life on the planet actually, it's how he sustained himself for four thousand years.

It does when Kyp is the person he is possessing and teaching, btw this is just after pulling the Suncrusher out of the core of Yavin Prime and bringing it all the way down to the apex of the temple.

Yes we are and as an untrained teenager she was turning people into charred corpses without even trying.

Nice assumption on your part, despite every single Jedi bar the HoT being effected severely by the planet. Hell it turned Kyle Katarn to the brink of the Dark Side, rendered Ben's abilities useless, gave Jaina a severe migraine and also made YODA's ability to channel the Force practically invalid.

Soloing the Triumvirate in the heart of Malachor V, whilst being crushed under a gravity well and haunted by the spirits of the planet is a far greater feat than what defeating Nyriss would of been. Traya & Sion > Nyriss by such a margin that it's laughable.

AncientPower
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Don't be too hard on the disabled. He's from swtor forums.
No I am not, ingrate.

DarthAnt66
No he didn't. erm

Don't change the topic. We are discussing the feat of consuming planets. Darth Sidious never consumed a a planet.
Admit your own limitations, restrictions, failure, weakness, and inferiority.


He didn't absorb the planet's surface, no. He only absorbed the Maasassi in the ritual. The planet's surface was destroyed by the wall of light the Jedi created.

"Knowing he would be defeated, Kun tapped the life forces of all the Massassi to seal and preserve his consciousness within his temple. As a last measure, Kun left behind the night beast, an alchemical creation, to guard his legacy. The Jedi task force succeeded in killing Kun's body, but the assault also laid waste to many of Yavin 4's jungles and killed what few Massassi were left. All that remained of the species were their massive monuments."
--Star Wars Databanks

http://i39.servimg.com/u/f39/17/73/92/12/cost10.jpg


Look at your double standards. You said earlier Revan only knowing sorcery isn't the same as using it. Now it's different for Kun?
Hell, this is Exar Kun's ghost. A ghost is not an accurate representation of a characters power. Look at Marka Ragnos.

I will let Emperordmb handle this part. wink

Revan and Meetra weren't. no expression

That wasn't the planet nexus, that was the nexus of the Dark Force Temple.


Then what defeating Nyriss would of been? What? This feat is impressive, but doesn't change her being utterly stomped by the same Sith Lord that Revan one-shotted.

AncientPower
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Dafuq?!! Keto's illusions are nothing to Zannah, Andeddu, or Wyyrlok.

"Unrivaled in illusory powers and a master of Sith magic, Aleema would sow terror into the minds of the Republic."- TCG

Keto's powers didn't only lay in illusions but they were exceptionally broad and powerful, entire fleets of illusory ships, turning swords into snakes on a mass scale, disintegrating people without even trying.

She endured the strong dark side taint and became stronger for it, she was trained by Nadd himself and received the ancient texts of the Golden Age itself.

Only Nomi and Kun could even defend themselves from her powers.

Emperordmb
Perhaps Keto was unrivaled in her time, but Nomi easily resisting Keto's illusions does not compare to Zannah's and Wyyrlok's illusions giving the likes of Bane and Krayt great trouble, despite their own insane mental prowess.

AncientPower
Originally posted by DarthAnt66

No he didn't. erm

Don't change the topic. We are discussing the feat of consuming planets. Darth Sidious never consumed a a planet.
Admit your own limitations, restrictions, failure, weakness, and inferiority.


He didn't absorb the planet's surface, no. He only absorbed the Maasassi in the ritual. The planet's surface was destroyed by the wall of light the Jedi created.

"Knowing he would be defeated, Kun tapped the life forces of all the Massassi to seal and preserve his consciousness within his temple. As a last measure, Kun left behind the night beast, an alchemical creation, to guard his legacy. The Jedi task force succeeded in killing Kun's body, but the assault also laid waste to many of Yavin 4's jungles and killed what few Massassi were left. All that remained of the species were their massive monuments."
--Star Wars Databanks

http://i39.servimg.com/u/f39/17/73/92/12/cost10.jpg


Look at your double standards. You said earlier Revan only knowing sorcery isn't the same as using it. Now it's different for Kun?
Hell, this is Exar Kun's ghost. A ghost is not an accurate representation of a characters power. Look at Marka Ragnos.

I will let Emperordmb handle this part. wink

Revan and Meetra weren't. no expression

That wasn't the planet nexus, that was the nexus of the Dark Force Temple.


Then what defeating Nyriss would of been? What? This feat is impressive, but doesn't change her being utterly stomped by the same Sith Lord that Revan one-shotted.

You... this.. it's absolutely glorious, you wank yourself non-stop and take yourself so seriously, I swear it's like debating with a child, oh wait...

"But the destruction of this planet's surface had sustained this dark man well beyond his years, biding his time in his slumber."

Kun has displayed a TOTAL mastery of Sorcery and canonically amped Kyp Durron whilst on Yavin IV, all of Kyp's Dark Side knowledge and displayed powers at this point were via Kun.

Also Exar Kun's spirit was a literal shadow of his former self, not nearly as powerful as he is in a corporeal form and his abilities in this form were all techniques he had learnt before his ascension.

So yes they do count.

Meetra didn't display half the power she has in previous media.

The Dark Force Temple just like the Dark Temple is simply a focal point for the nexus on Dromund Kaas, you are arguing semantics.

Nyriss defeating a nerfed Meetra is by no means a surprise and the evidence supports my point that she was not at full power here at all, just like every Jedi bar HoT whom had mental defenses against such, also Revan a dual Force user doesn't count in these examples whatsoever.

FreshestSlice

AncientPower
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Perhaps Keto was unrivaled in her time, but Nomi easily resisting Keto's illusions does not compare to Zannah's and Wyyrlok's illusions giving the likes of Bane and Krayt great trouble, despite their own insane mental prowess.
Nomi protected herself with Battle Meditation a well-known counter to Illusions.

Emperordmb
Originally posted by AncientPower
Nomi protected herself with Battle Meditation a well-known counter to Illusions.
Some illusions perhaps. Bane stated Zannah's illusions have no technique used for defense against them, that the only protection against Zannah's sorcery is strength of will.

Tell me... did Kun definitively know BM? and if not then how come Keto didn't just overcome Kun with illusions?

DarthAnt66
That's inconsistent with all other sources, including the actual comic itself.

Exar Kun isn't controlling him. So no, it doesn't count. He has knowledge on it, yes, but no feats.
Exar Kun's ghost is depicted as much more powerful then his former self.

Yes, that is called a retcon. no expression The game was from 2004, it's out-dated.
----- ----- -----
You also forget Meetra was amped by her companions when she soloed Malachor. She drained everyone around her as a wound.

No it's not. The temple was founded by Darth Millennial, far after Vitiate's rule ended.

AncientPower
Originally posted by DarthAnt66

That's inconsistent with all other sources, including the actual comic itself.

Exar Kun isn't controlling him. So no, it doesn't count. He has knowledge on it, yes, but no feats.
Exar Kun's ghost is depicted as much more powerful then his former self.

Yes, that is called a retcon. no expression The game was from 2004, it's out-dated.
----- ----- -----
You also forget Meetra was amped by her companions when she soloed Malachor. She drained everyone around her as a wound.

No it's not. The temple was founded by Darth Millennial, far after Vitiate's rule ended.

Actually none of those sources have a direct statement on what effect the annihilation of the surface had on him.

Wrong on both accounts:


Kun clearly had a compelling hold over him.



Kyp's energies feed the powers of Kun, whom channels this through Kyp himself and even incapacitates Luke himself. Even so he is STILL not at full power as Vodo Siosk Baas tells Luke in the 'spirit realm', Exar Kun is still at just a part of his power. He would only ever be at full power once he had his human form back.

Meetra's ability to bond with her students doesn't work the way you think it does, she gained the techniques and powers that they taught he. As she herself taught them, the bond allowed her to train them a lot faster than normally possible and vice-versa.

Unless you are actually stating that the nexus on Dromund Kaas somehow vanished between said times, I am not sure what you are getting at. Vitiate's experiments and imprisonment of other Sith in the Dark Temple turned the planet into a much more powerful Nexus than it had formerly been.

DarthAnt66
"The lightside power triggers a terrible destruction in its wake."
--The Comic

I never denied such. He was never controlling him though. His spirit never took over Kyp's body.

Spirit realm doesn't mean shit, to be honest. He was able to **** up Luke pretty badly.

I don't understand why you believe your knowledge on Meetra surpasses this entire forum.
The Exile was accessing the Force via her companions. By the end of the game, she is tapping the Force presence of 3-4 fully realized Jedi.
This is explained numerous times throughout the game, actually. Most notably on Dantooine. erm

Darth Millenial founded the nexus in the Dark Force Temple. It was not a central spot of Kaas' nexus, but rather something different, like Yavin 4 and then the sacrificial temple of Naga Sadow.
The temple became a central place in both the Dark Force and Prophets of the Dark Side orders, making it an extremely powerful nexus.

AncientPower
Yes he was, he was practically mind dominating him and feeding off his energies to sustain himself, he was the reason Kyp went Dark Side in the first place.

Ah so you're just going to ignore the point I see.

If all her power came from her companions then why is she still performing on Dromund Kaas and then feeding Revan for three centuries?

I still do not see how this renders these effects mute. The planet was one massive center of Dark Side energy, the orbit itself was a miasma of Dark Side energy.

DarthAnt66
Your argument continues to grow smaller and more less significant. Gewd.

There's a difference between controlling someone and ****ing with there mind. Kun did the second.

Your point was wrong, as evidenced by Luke Skywalker getting ****ed up.

Did I say all her power was coming from them? No. Though the difference was pretty great.

They were corrupted by the temple, not the planet at large. They were all fine walking around on the planet until they reached the temple.

AncientPower
Kun did both, that is obvious, when you have such an effect on someone's mind that you outright turn them to the Dark Side of the Force and give them dark techniques way beyond your own comprehension and then that all disappears, it means you have total control the quote outright states his control was complete.

So because he defeats Luke Skywalker a statement in a source is incorrect? hahahaha.

I do not believe this for a second, as it is stated outright that she got more powerful by feeding on the death around her.

No they weren't, even on the journey to the temple, they were all suffering the effects.

DarthAnt66
I'll respond soon. Gtg get some sleep though, 1:30am. D:

Selenial
Originally posted by DarthAnt66

You also forget Meetra was amped by her companions when she soloed Malachor. She drained everyone around her as a wound.

No it's not. The temple was founded by Darth Millennial, far after Vitiate's rule ended.

You should know better Anthony.

I swear you say these things just to draw me in.

She wasn't amped by her companions during the Trayus academy as none of then were there, and everyone else were already wounds who's soul purpose was to drain, not be drained.

You seem to completely disregard other sources in favor of one, despite the fact that none of the sources contradict each other at all. You're doing this all out of some petty hatred that Obsidian went with Meetra, and that there was indeed a character in the Kotor era far more interesting than your beloved lord.

It's simple, Meetra was weakened. There's no need to say she wasn't and it's a retcon, because we know every other Jedi who has ever set foot on that planet bar the HOT was weakened, and was weakened immensely. Even Yoda.

Are you trying to say that Nyriss > Yoda? That Dooku> Yoda just because they'd beat him on Dromund Kaas? Because that's the logic you're using here.

Nay, logic is a strong word. That's the idiocy you're spamming here.

Based
Originally posted by Selenial

I swear you say these things just to draw me in.

She wasn't amped by her companions during the Trayus academy as none of then were there.

There's no specification of a certain distance to not be affected by her companions. After all she was able to feel Kreia losing her hand even though she had gone solo to face Sion. And that was her first and only bond, I'm sure she still had the help of her companions who were still somewhat nearby.




It's a theory at best however solid it is. It's not irrefutable. I'm pretty sure Meetra spoke nothing about the dark side effects of DK, and certainly didn't mention of being weakened as a result.

AncientPower
Karpyshyn left out plenty about Revan as well as Meetra, he really didn't go into the realm of descriptive writing with this one. That was why quite a lot of people hated it, it was rushed, felt rushed and lacked any background. So many characters could have been given endings and questions could have been answered, but no.

Never notice how Meetra's wound seems to no longer exist? or Traya? Notice how everyone but Bastila seems to act like the Dark Wars never happened? it's called a poor job.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Selenial
You should know better Anthony.

I swear you say these things just to draw me in.

She wasn't amped by her companions during the Trayus academy as none of then were there, and everyone else were already wounds who's soul purpose was to drain, not be drained.

You seem to completely disregard other sources in favor of one, despite the fact that none of the sources contradict each other at all. You're doing this all out of some petty hatred that Obsidian went with Meetra, and that there was indeed a character in the Kotor era far more interesting than your beloved lord.

It's simple, Meetra was weakened. There's no need to say she wasn't and it's a retcon, because we know every other Jedi who has ever set foot on that planet bar the HOT was weakened, and was weakened immensely. Even Yoda.

Are you trying to say that Nyriss > Yoda? That Dooku> Yoda just because they'd beat him on Dromund Kaas? Because that's the logic you're using here.

Nay, logic is a strong word. That's the idiocy you're spamming here.
Ooo, is Cary (wink) mad? You must calm your anger to raise that baby girl.
Numerous of KMC's old time debaters have been debating this issue for a while now in other topics. That was there findings:

"You make connections through the Force, and it resonates with those who travel with you. The resonance is even greater when they, too, are Force sensitive. Your actions affect others more than you know. You draw others to you, especially those strong in the Force. When you suffer, their spirit echoes it. And when they are in pain, their pain becomes yours. It is what allows them to prey on Force users, to become stronger when Force Sensitives are near."
--The Jedi Council (Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords)

Your argument is she was weakened on Nathema by staying there for several months. You can eternally never speak.

DarthAnt66

Nephthys
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Ooo, is Cary (wink) mad? You must calm your anger to raise that baby girl.

Stop being creepy.

DarthAnt66
I'm not. You simply do not understand the inside joke (for me and Skillz at least), and therefore should not voice your opinion on it.

Selenial
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I'm not. You simply do not understand the inside joke (for me and Skillz at least), and therefore should not voice your opinion on it.

You spelled my name wrong.... Again.

And yeh, still creepy.

Selenial
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Ooo, is Cary (wink) mad? You must calm your anger to raise that baby girl.
Numerous of KMC's old time debaters have been debating this issue for a while now in other topics. That was there findings:

"You make connections through the Force, and it resonates with those who travel with you. The resonance is even greater when they, too, are Force sensitive. Your actions affect others more than you know. You draw others to you, especially those strong in the Force. When you suffer, their spirit echoes it. And when they are in pain, their pain becomes yours. It is what allows them to prey on Force users, to become stronger when Force Sensitives are near."
--The Jedi Council (Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords)

Your argument is she was weakened on Nathema by staying there for several months. You can eternally never speak.
That quote... Says nothing against what I said. Like at all.

And I said days, and in conceded that I was wrong. Have you never made a mistake oh exalted one? In my defense, who the **** can tolerate reading that steaming pile of turd more than once..??

Selenial
Originally posted by Based
There's no specification of a certain distance to not be affected by her companions. After all she was able to feel Kreia losing her hand even though she had gone solo to face Sion. And that was her first and only bond, I'm sure she still had the help of her companions who were still somewhat nearby.




It's a theory at best however solid it is. It's not irrefutable. I'm pretty sure Meetra spoke nothing about the dark side effects of DK, and certainly didn't mention of being weakened as a result.



It's a theory of yours that Meetra wasn't weakened, and your theory goes against established Canon.

GO-TO wasn't mentioned at all in the Revan novel, does he not exist now? Nihilus wasn't, does he not exist? No, they both do, because they've been explored in other sources.
Dromund Kaas has weakened every single Jedi who was ever landed on its world bar one, it's a Theory that she wasn't.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Selenial
That quote... Says nothing against what I said. Like at all.

And I said days, and in conceded that I was wrong. Have you never made a mistake oh exalted one? In my defense, who the **** can tolerate reading that steaming pile of turd more than once..??
I thought you were disagreeing with the theory. Nvm then.

Very well, and I agree. I played KotOR 2 directly before reading the book (as a female character), and I was pissed to see how they totally trashed my character. erm

Nephthys
Originally posted by Selenial
That quote... Says nothing against what I said. Like at all.

And I said days, and in conceded that I was wrong. Have you never made a mistake oh exalted one? In my defense, who the **** can tolerate reading that steaming pile of turd more than once..??

I didn't even manage it once. I read the Vitiate fight and that was enough for me.

Selenial
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I thought you were disagreeing with the theory. Nvm then.

Very well, and I agree. I played KotOR 2 directly before reading the book (as a female character), and I was pissed to see how they totally trashed by character. erm

confused

**** it, I'll accept that, I take what I can get.

Which theory? The companion one? I do disagree with that, Because she still had her force bond with Traya even and there was no mention of that, the companions were way too far away too. Handmaiden probably had the force potential of top 20 Jedi/Sith, so just her giving Meetra power would have put Meetra above levels where 3 Jedi can sever her.

They need to have a greater command of the force together to do it, if she was able to draw on her companions from so far, including one of the most powerful Sith in history, said Sith's daughter, an assassin that was the sole survivor of Nilus etc, that simply wouldn't happen.

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Selenial
confused

**** it, I'll accept that, I take what I can get.

Which theory? The companion one? I do disagree with that, Because she still had her force bond with Traya even and there was no mention of that, the companions were way too far away too. Handmaiden probably had the force potential of top 20 Jedi/Sith, so just her giving Meetra power would have put Meetra above levels where 3 Jedi can sever her.

They need to have a greater command of the force together to do it, if she was able to draw on her companions from so far, including one of the most powerful Sith in history, said Sith's daughter, an assassin that was the sole survivor of Nilus etc, that simply wouldn't happen.
I don't understand your point. Your saying Meetra would be too OP if she was drawing off the connections of her companions? Most of her companions were shit. erm

Nephthys
I wouldn't say they were shit. They just never really showed much. Or.... anything.

But Handmaiden's potential in the top 20? I can't remember anything suggesting that.

Selenial
Originally posted by Nephthys
I wouldn't say they were shit. They just never really showed much. Or.... anything.

But Handmaiden's potential in the top 20? I can't remember anything suggesting that.

Nah it's just the Heritage shit, and I guess that she was Grandmaster for so long... I dunno, you'd just expect that kind of level from the daughter of perhaps the best non-force using blade master and one of the galaxy's strongest Sith.

DarthAnt66
@Neph Meh, they were pretty shit, besides HK and Canderous (Kreia not included).

Her father was "quicky" beat by Darth Revan, and her mother's power is unknown. I fail to grasp how she makes Top 20 also. thumb up

Selenial
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I don't understand your point. Your saying Meetra would be too OP if she was drawing off the connections of her companions? Most of her companions were shit. erm

If she could draw on them all, yes.

Take Dantooine for example.

Traya > Vrook
Exile > Kavarr
Handmaiden, Visas, Atton, Bao Dur, Mical & Mira > Zez Kai ell

In terms of force powers....

So why the hell can the three of them together entirely eclipse the exile? The only explanation I can see is that there needed to be a proximity, a physical connection where they were truly working together...

Selenial
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
and her mother's power is unknown.
Skillz.

You told me you'd wank Traya anytime, prove yourself child.

Selenial
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
@Neph Meh, they were pretty shit, besides HK and Canderous (Kreia not included).

Her father was "quicky" beat by Darth Revan, and her mother's power is unknown. I fail to grasp how she makes Top 20 also. thumb up

Oh, also, if Ancient Power was right and Raylas sourcebook quotes were real, Yusanis didn't lose cause of blade work.

But I'm not starting that whole debate again, just saying someone else claimed to know of the books existence.

Nephthys
Originally posted by Selenial
Nah it's just the Heritage shit, and I guess that she was Grandmaster for so long... I dunno, you'd just expect that kind of level from the daughter of perhaps the best non-force using blade master and one of the galaxy's strongest Sith.

Yeah, I guess. Though we don't really know to what degree the Exile drew upon their strength. Enough to be notable, but not noticeable I'd think. They never seemed to suffer from her leeching. SO I'm not sure she was more powerful the 3 Jedi Council members by that point from drawing on their power.

DarthAnt66
It's unconfirmed if her mother was Darth Traya. erm


You are trying to make sense in the game where the plot was a Sith Lord was trying to destroy the Force. Just go with what you got.

Selenial
Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah, I guess. Though we don't really know to what degree the Exile drew upon their strength. Enough to be notable, but not noticeable I'd think. They never seemed to suffer from her leeching.

Which is why I really doubt the councils explanation.

Personally I think you need to take a wider look to see how it really works, Traya was saying in the dark side speech that "It is similar to drawing on the force, as a Jedi does" and that it only became leeching when touched by the Dark Side.

I always thought they were just the gateway to her un-severing herself or something.

Selenial
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
It's unconfirmed if her mother was Darth Traya. erm


You are trying to make sense in the game where the plot was a Sith Lord was trying to destroy the Force. Just go with what you got.

"Perhaps I am just an old woman, who has come to despise what most she relies upon"

If you think that was the plot, come back and discuss it with me once you've hit and surpassed puberty.

And no, it's pretty much confirmed.

Arren Kae was first and last teacher to Revan, so was Traya.
Thought dead in the Mando wars. "I thought you had died in the Mandalorian wars"
Kreia? "That is not her name"
It is said that master Kae had nothing left to teach him, but how to leave the order itself. "I taught him how to leave the order"

That, and Avellone saying he was expressly forbidden from ever confirming or denying it.

Selenial
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDVCHKeM1Uk

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by Selenial
"Perhaps I am just an old woman, who has come to despise what most she relies upon"

If you think that was the plot, come back and discuss it with me once you've hit and surpassed puberty.

And no, it's pretty much confirmed.

Arren Kae was first and last teacher to Revan, so was Traya.
Thought dead in the Mando wars. "I thought you had died in the Mandalorian wars"
Kreia? "That is not her name"
It is said that master Kae had nothing left to teach him, but how to leave the order itself. "I taught him how to leave the order"

That, and Avellone saying he was expressly forbidden from ever confirming or denying it.
I didn't mean the entire plot, I meant the ending, which was true. Darth Traya took her to the heart of Malachor V to kill her, which would apparently destroy the Force.

It's not confirmed if Kreia is Arren Kae in official canon, just all speculation.

Selenial
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I didn't mean the entire plot, I meant the ending, which was true. Darth Traya took her to the heart of Malachor V to kill her, which would apparently destroy the Force.

It's not confirmed if Kreia is Arren Kae in official canon, just all speculation.

A lot of things in Star Wars is speculation.
It's your speculation that Revan is a better combatant than Coleman Trebor, you base your reasoning on feats, as I mine with conversations.

You believe what you do because there is more evidence supporting it the there is going against it, it's the same here.

DarthAnt66
Yes, but don't take speculation as law, because it isn't.

Selenial
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Yes, but don't take speculation as law, because it isn't.

Indeed.

But we're speculating the power levels of a Jedi, and I chose to use an incredibly valid theory.
I'm not going to just not use it because it's a theory.

DarthAnt66
Okay, but don't expect me to use it, because I don't agree with such theory.

Nephthys
Arren Kae being Kreia is literally one-step from being confirmed. Multiples things are repeated when talking about them. The Disciple stating Revan went to Kae last before leaving the Order and Kreia saying the same thing about herself basically clinch it imo.

FreshestSlice
No it was just the other mysterious Jedi, who trained Revan first and last, that disappeared in the Mandalorian Wars, that the Jedi Council and Disciple would both recognize as not being named Kreia.

/sarcasm

DarthAnt66
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
No it was just the other mysterious Jedi, who trained Revan first and last, that disappeared in the Mandalorian Wars, that the Jedi Council and Disciple would both recognize as not being named Kreia.

thumb up

Kotor3
Originally posted by AncientPower
Their primary teacher.

It was always Revan and the Exile, they won the Mandalorian Wars, the Exile was forgotten about due to the Jedi Civil War taking place directly afterwards.

It was always clear to me that Revan was the famous poster-boy but everyone forgets he had help.

Meetra was a dedicated Light Side master, her abilities confirmed well before the novel. Though I see that debating such is just going to be sideswiped with 'lolgamemechanics' when that is not strictly true at all.

Meetra has exceptional feats, even her Force Ghost was powerful enough to feed Revan the required energy and mental fortitude to control Vitiate in subtle ways. All of this on Dromund Kaas, for three centuries.

But people love to low-ball KotOR characters as much as their fans love to place them on an unreachable pedestal.

It's a shame that all the characters bar Revan get ignored in terms of genuine feats.

Greatest does not equate to most powerful, neither does it mean or refer to the same thing. We already know that the Exile never view herself to be on the same level as Revan which is confirmed in the novel.

There is a lot more to be look at when you look at the context of the story. Bottom line is there is nothing in Kotor II that implies that the Exile has ever exceeded Revan in power or skill.

Whereas Traya felt that she had fell Revan she mostly likely felt that the succeed with the Exile which could be a reason why she called her, her greatest student.

Fated Xtasy
Originally posted by Kotor3
Greatest does not equate to most powerful, neither does it mean or refer to the same thing. We already know that the Exile never view herself to be on the same level as Revan which is confirmed in the novel.


Ant is gonna hate me for this, but whatever. um you ever think that she was being humble? i mean how many times did Mace praise others and call them superior to him? yet we obviously know that Mace is second to Yoda himself.



Yeah, there's absolutely nothing that says the exile ever surpassed Revan in anything

Oh wait! what's this i have found? a quote from Kreia calling her(Meetra) the greater than any she has ever trained? which includes Darth Sion, Darth Nihlius and Mando/Darth Revan?

"You are greater than any I have ever trained."

Oh and another from Sion himself, who says that the exile had the potential to surpass Kreia

"You are strong... I cannot see as she does, but I know, that in time, you shall surpass her power."

yeah, you're right, there is "nothing" to say she had the capacity to surpass revan -_-



That doesn't make a sense. i'm not being a dick or anything, but i seriously don't know what you were trying to say with this stick out tongue

Nephthys
Originally posted by Kotor3
Greatest does not equate to most powerful, neither does it mean or refer to the same thing. We already know that the Exile never view herself to be on the same level as Revan which is confirmed in the novel.

There is a lot more to be look at when you look at the context of the story. Bottom line is there is nothing in Kotor II that implies that the Exile has ever exceeded Revan in power or skill.

Whereas Traya felt that she had fell Revan she mostly likely felt that the succeed with the Exile which could be a reason why she called her, her greatest student.

Kreia called the Exile her greatest student in response to her beating her though. So it's fairly clear she meant it in regards to combat ability.

FreshestSlice
Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Ant is gonna hate me for this, but whatever. um you ever think that she was being humble? i mean how many times did Mace praise others and call them superior to him? yet we obviously know that Mace is second to Yoda himself.


The novel itself shows Revan to be above Meetra from her perspective.

lol You do know that Kreia has never met KotOR Revan who is above Darth Revan,the last one Traya taught, right? Or the fact that even Darth Revan is more powerful than Traya? Mando-Wars Revan was above Traya.


See the above.

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