Themistocles versus Leonidas

TheVaultDweller

Originally posted by draxx_tOfU
The spartans fighting wave after wave of armies stronger than Themistocles faced is > anything Themy has done. Endurance, stamina, durability, strength and skill favor Leonidas. What's the point of bringing up Artemisia? Leonidas guts her as well.

Based on what does he have better physical stats than Themistocles? He doesn't display greater speed, endurance, stamina, durability, skill or strength than Themistocles at any point during the film. Also, based on what does he gut Artemisia? His only showing against non-cannon fodder is against the Uber Immortal, and that was hardly a very impressive showing at all.

Fact is, Leonidas lacks one-on-one feats to show what he is capable of, and we cannot simply make assumptions without evidence. Otherwise, I can just as easily say that, based off of their shown combat speed and skill, Themistocles or Artemisia would have stomped the Uber Immortal that Leonidas had trouble with.

Originally posted by draxx_tOfU

A one on one fight favors Leonidas as well, he's armed with a shield and spear which is all he needs. Is Themistocles gonna lure Leonidas in a crevice?

Based on what does this fight favour Leonidas, used to fighting with men on either side of him, over Themistocles, who is used to fighting on his own? If anything, a one-on-one match favours Themistocles. Also, they both have the same gear, so not seeing your point there. And no, Themistocles simply beats him through superior skill, based on their actual onscreen showings.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I can't take this thread seriously because Themistocles in real life was no warrior... He was a born leader and great at strategy, but in combat, he wasn't anything special and was always behind the scenes giving orders. Just because the movie made him into somebody he wasn't, doesn't mean he can beat somebody who in real life was a badass.

This isn't a debate about their RL versions, so I really don't see why you are complaining. This is the 300 versions of both, and both of those were warriors. So we compare their onscreen versions, not RL ones.

Martian_mind

Themistocles for the stomp.

Arachnid1

Originally posted by Arachnid1
Perseus>>>All This was a typo. F*ck Perseus.

Theseus >>> All

RJ 2.0

Originally posted by Robtard
Leonidas had a better 6-pack; he wins.

DVS6dfp5ntQ

Robtard

Leonidas does have a better 6-pack though, brah.

relentless1

Leonidas would DEEEEstroy Themistocles

relentless1

Leonidas was a spartan, trained from birth to be an Ultimate Warrior, the brave 300 faced off against a million Persians, say they killed half that thats 1666 to 1. So what if there wasn't any individual feats to compare Leo to Themy if you listen to the narration in BOTH films Leo is described and heralded as one of, if not the best warrior Greece had to offer.

TheVaultDweller

Originally posted by relentless1
Leonidas was a spartan, trained from birth to be an Ultimate Warrior, the brave 300 faced off against a million Persians, say they killed half that thats 1666 to 1. So what if there wasn't any individual feats to compare Leo to Themy if you listen to the narration in BOTH films Leo is described and heralded as one of, if not the best warrior Greece had to offer.

Are you kidding me? Individual feats are the only way we have of directly comparing their combat capabilities. Everything else is simply matter of opinion and hearsay. Quotes and comments are subjective and do not equal valid feats, especially when the narration throughout most of both films is done by other Spartans. Hell, the narration at one point also says that Artemisia was unmatched in sword combat by anyone else in Xerxes' kingdom, and Themistocles is her superior. Therefore, based on comments by people in the film, Themistocles > any warrior in the Persian empire. See how pointless a debate gets when we go from using actual feats to using comments made by characters?

Also, we have absolutely no idea how many Persian the Spartans killed. Seeing as they only fought for a few days, the chances of 300 of them killing 500,000 is extremely unlikely, to put it mildly. And we also have no idea of what kind of upbringing Themistocles himself had, so bringing up that point about Leonidas is useless too.

Themistocles has better individual combat feats than Leonidas, or any other Spartan shown for that matter. So based on feats, Themistocles wins.

RJ 2.0

Originally posted by relentless1
Leonidas would DEEEEstroy Themistocles That's a negative. Them has superior screen feats. Dude was surrounded by Immortals and was raping them. He is faster and a better swordsman.

TheVaultDweller

Originally posted by RJ 2.0
That's a negative. Them has superior screen feats. Dude was surrounded by Immortals and was raping them. He is faster and a better swordsman.

This 100%. One-on-one, Spartans > Immortals. But we see Spartans getting overwhelmed by 2 or 3 Immortals at a time, and being killed. Themistocles took on several of Artemisia's personal Immortal guards and made them look like an utter joke. At one stage he even fights three of them at once, blocking, parrying and exchanging multiple blows from various directions and angles, while in a kneeling position, and takes them apart with ease. That is a feat way beyond what any of the Spartans, including Leonidas, have shown. And that is just one of his feats that puts him above them.

KuRuPT Thanosi

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Are you kidding me? Individual feats are the only way we have of directly comparing their combat capabilities. Everything else is simply matter of opinion and hearsay. Quotes and comments are subjective and do not equal valid feats, especially when the narration throughout most of both films is done by other Spartans. Hell, the narration at one point also says that Artemisia was unmatched in sword combat by anyone else in Xerxes' kingdom, and Themistocles is her superior. Therefore, based on comments by people in the film, Themistocles > any warrior in the Persian empire. See how pointless a debate gets when we go from using actual feats to using comments made by characters?

Also, we have absolutely no idea how many Persian the Spartans killed. Seeing as they only fought for a few days, the chances of 300 of them killing 500,000 is extremely unlikely, to put it mildly. And we also have no idea of what kind of upbringing Themistocles himself had, so bringing up that point about Leonidas is useless too.

Themistocles has better individual combat feats than Leonidas, or any other Spartan shown for that matter. So based on feats, Themistocles wins.

What are you talking about though... First there are rough estimates on how many they killed at it was likely around 30,000 to 40,000.. The other thing people need to remember is there were about 10,000 other greeks who joined Sparta like the Thebans... Arcadians etc etc... So they dealt significant damage while vastly outnumbered. Anyways, the point is, Themistocles wasn't a warrior at all.. he was more a politician and strategist than a warrior at all. I doubt he even killed anybody in battle. So to hear you say Leonidas doesn't have the battle feats of Themistolces, is just, well kinda silly to me. Yes, it's fine to go by the movies and what they actually did. However, that shouldn't replace common sense and what we actually know and see. It should be a combination of both with a sprinkle of common sense. Common sense tells us... Leo utterly trashes him with utter ease.

KuRuPT Thanosi

Also Leo killing the giant Immortal was more impressive than Them killing 3 immortals at once... just saying since you want to through out logic and common sense about these two

RJ 2.0

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Also Leo killing the giant Immortal was more impressive than Them killing 3 immortals at once... just saying since you want to through out logic and common sense about these two Wrong, Theo is faster. Leonidas is mortal and will fall like a normal man.

TheVaultDweller

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
What are you talking about though... First there are rough estimates on how many they killed at it was likely around 30,000 to 40,000.. The other thing people need to remember is there were about 10,000 other greeks who joined Sparta like the Thebans... Arcadians etc etc... So they dealt significant damage while vastly outnumbered. Anyways, the point is, Themistocles wasn't a warrior at all.. he was more a politician and strategist than a warrior at all. I doubt he even killed anybody in battle. So to hear you say Leonidas doesn't have the battle feats of Themistolces, is just, well kinda silly to me. Yes, it's fine to go by the movies and what they actually did. However, that shouldn't replace common sense and what we actually know and see. It should be a combination of both with a sprinkle of common sense. Common sense tells us... Leo utterly trashes him with utter ease.

Firsly, I specifically pointed out that they didn't reach anywhere near the half million mark. That's the point I was making. Even those "rough" estimates (indicating that they are ballpark numbers) are not even 1/10 of what the other guy was throwing out. My whole comment was aimed at showing that the 300 Spartans did NOT kill 1666 men each before dying. Not even close to that number. He was trying to overplay their abilities. All I did was correct him.

Dude, their RL counterparts have NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS FIGHT. Of course RL Leonidas would trash RL Themistocles, but neither are present here. It is their movie portrayals, based on fictional comic books, who are fighting here. This is the movie versus forum on KMC. Not the History channel. So bringing their RL abilities into this is completely and utterly pointless.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Also Leo killing the giant Immortal was more impressive than Them killing 3 immortals at once... just saying since you want to through out logic and common sense about these two

No, it isn't. The giant Immortal was slow and had no skill. And Leonidas was getting his ass kicked throughout that entire fight. He only won in the end because the Immortal decided to stop to growl and drool on him for a few seconds, instead of actually fighting properly.

Those same Immortal guards Themistocles effortlessly stomped at once were slicing through Greeks without pause. They all displayed way more speed and skill than the giant Immortal did at any point. And that is also not mentioning Themistocles taking out Artemisia right after that, who herself was shitstomping Greeks with ease at an earlier point.

Sorry but, based on screen feats (the only thing that matters in a VS match between two FICTIONAL portrayals of characters), Themistocles is both faster and more skilled than Leonidas is.

KuRuPT Thanosi

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Firsly, I specifically pointed out that they didn't reach anywhere near the half million mark. That's the point I was making. Even those "rough" estimates (indicating that they are ballpark numbers) are not even 1/10 of what the other guy was throwing out. My whole comment was aimed at showing that the 300 Spartans did NOT kill 1666 men each before dying. Not even close to that number. He was trying to overplay their abilities. All I did was correct him.

Dude, their RL counterparts have NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS FIGHT. Of course RL Leonidas would trash RL Themistocles, but neither are present here. It is their movie portrayals, based on fictional comic books, who are fighting here. This is the movie versus forum on KMC. Not the History channel. So bringing their RL abilities into this is completely and utterly pointless.

No, it isn't. The giant Immortal was slow and had no skill. And Leonidas was getting his ass kicked throughout that entire fight. He only won in the end because the Immortal decided to stop to growl and drool on him for a few seconds, instead of actually fighting properly.

Those same Immortal guards Themistocles effortlessly stomped at once were slicing through Greeks without pause. They all displayed way more speed and skill than the giant Immortal did at any point. And that is also not mentioning Themistocles taking out Artemisia right after that, who herself was shitstomping Greeks with ease at an earlier point.

Sorry but, based on screen feats (the only thing that matters in a VS match between two FICTIONAL portrayals of characters), Themistocles is both faster and more skilled than Leonidas is.

Firstly, the greeks they were "slicing through" Weren't Spartan Greek warriors.. They were Athenian and a collection of other tribes... not nearly as impressive as slicing through a Spartan Phalanx... So no, it was not more impressive. The giant was throwing people around like a sack of potatoes. Leo defeating him was much more impressive.

I understand this is a vs. forum and I know what you're trying to argue here. All I'm saying is, try and use a little more common sense and objectivity. Don't you think it sounds kinda funny to give somebody a win who never drew a sword in battle over somebody who died in battle? I mean really?

Robtard

Leonidas still has better abs

FrothByte

Originally posted by Robtard
Leonidas still has better abs

He just had a better brush-on make-up artist

Robtard

It wasn't just make-up, Butler worked his ass off for that role more-so than that Australian guy.

TheVaultDweller

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Firstly, the greeks they were "slicing through" Weren't Spartan Greek warriors.. They were Athenian and a collection of other tribes... not nearly as impressive as slicing through a Spartan Phalanx... So no, it was not more impressive. The giant was throwing people around like a sack of potatoes. Leo defeating him was much more impressive.

Point is, they visually display WAY more skill and speed than the Uber Immortal. We see this with our own eyes. Not to mention we see, in 300, frontline Immortal troops overwhelming individual Spartans when 3-4 to 1. And these Immortals were Artemisia's personal guard, so likely the cream of the crop. And Leonidas was losing badly. He only survived due to MASSIVE PIS on the part of the Uber Immortal. He had Leonidas in a full mount position, at his mercy. He could have grabbed his skull and bashed it into the ground. Grabbed that spear tip and stab Leonidas with it himself. Or a bunch of other things that could have given him the win. But what does he do? He leans forward and growls at him, and seemingly tries to bite Leonidas' face, leaving himself wide open and defenseless against the spear tip to the eye.

Themistocles dodges blows from people WAY faster than the Uber Immortal, and on multiple occasions uses his speed, skill and technique to severe sword arms. So, based on that, Themistocles would have picked the Uber Immortal apart, piece by piece, due to WAY better speed, skill, and his fighting style.

If you seriously think Leonidas surviving due to PIS is more impressive than Themistocles effortlessly taking out multiple Immortals at once, followed by Artemisia, I really don't know what to say to you.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi

I understand this is a vs. forum and I know what you're trying to argue here. All I'm saying is, try and use a little more common sense and objectivity. Don't you think it sounds kinda funny to give somebody a win who never drew a sword in battle over somebody who died in battle? I mean really?

Except, he did draw a sword in battle. He has a whole film full of combat feats. Because this is MOVIE Themistocles. Not RL Themistocles. I am using common sense. I am applying the fact that we are in a MOVIE vs forum, in a matchup between MOVIE characters, and comparing their MOVIE feats to decide who wins.

The Persians also never had rhino cavalries. Are you going to tell me there aren't any rhinos in 300 because there weren't any historically?

Or let me try it another way. If I made a thread with Abe Lincoln Vampire Hunter vs some vampire, are you going to tell me he can't win because the real Lincoln never killed a vampire in RL? See what I mean here?

RJ 2.0

Originally posted by Robtard
Leonidas still has better abs And yet he still loses here.

Robtard

Originally posted by RJ 2.0
And yet he still loses here. 0DZVjdFRZCA

TheVaultDweller

Originally posted by Robtard
0DZVjdFRZCA

As interesting a clip as that is, not quite sure what someone's scripted fight has to do with the result of the actual matchup.

RJ 2.0

Originally posted by Robtard
0DZVjdFRZCA Lol, Theo aint gonna go toe to toe with Leo, no way he matches Leo's strength. Theo is way faster and more evasive. He'll use that to his advantage and slice Leo to ribbons.

Yes, I am calling them Leo and Theo, their names are too long.

KuRuPT Thanosi

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Point is, they visually display WAY more skill and speed than the Uber Immortal. We see this with our own eyes. Not to mention we see, in 300, frontline Immortal troops overwhelming individual Spartans when 3-4 to 1. And these Immortals were Artemisia's personal guard, so likely the cream of the crop. And Leonidas was losing badly. He only survived due to MASSIVE PIS on the part of the Uber Immortal. He had Leonidas in a full mount position, at his mercy. He could have grabbed his skull and bashed it into the ground. Grabbed that spear tip and stab Leonidas with it himself. Or a bunch of other things that could have given him the win. But what does he do? He leans forward and growls at him, and seemingly tries to bite Leonidas' face, leaving himself wide open and defenseless against the spear tip to the eye.

Themistocles dodges blows from people WAY faster than the Uber Immortal, and on multiple occasions uses his speed, skill and technique to severe sword arms. So, based on that, Themistocles would have picked the Uber Immortal apart, piece by piece, due to WAY better speed, skill, and his fighting style.

If you seriously think Leonidas surviving due to PIS is more impressive than Themistocles effortlessly taking out multiple Immortals at once, followed by Artemisia, I really don't know what to say to you.

Except, he did draw a sword in battle. He has a whole film full of combat feats. Because this is MOVIE Themistocles. Not RL Themistocles. I am using common sense. I am applying the fact that we are in a MOVIE vs forum, in a matchup between MOVIE characters, and comparing their MOVIE feats to decide who wins.

The Persians also never had rhino cavalries. Are you going to tell me there aren't any rhinos in 300 because there weren't any historically?

Or let me try it another way. If I made a thread with Abe Lincoln Vampire Hunter vs some vampire, are you going to tell me he can't win because the real Lincoln never killed a vampire in RL? See what I mean here?

You're not understanding something... The immortals Them killed who were slicing through Greeks... Those greeks weren't Spartan Hoplites... They were Athenians and Thebans and other tribes. So, that isn't nearly as impressive as slicing through Spartans. That's the first thing you don't seem to get.

Second, you keep claiming PIS for the Uber immortal but that is just a lame excuse. I could claim it was PIS for Leo to even engage him at all... When he was fighting one greek Leo was just standing there as the uber had his back to him... he could impaled him right there... Or thrown a spear at him as soon as he attacked. I could say all those things but who cares. All that matters is... leo defeated him in battle. Also, how can you say the Uber was dominating him... Leo sliced his leg and stuck a sword in his arm before even being touched. I think you need to rewatch the scene in question. Him beating that immortal was more impressive than Them slicing though some immortals who beat a bunch of no name greeks. It really isn't close actually

Third, I understand perfectly where we are and you I get what you are arguing and why. What I'm saying is.. When two people are close to each other in a movie setting... which these two seem to be.. I would much prefer to go with somebody who I ACTUALLY know would shit stomp the other in real life. That's just me I guess.

TheVaultDweller

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You're not understanding something... The immortals Them killed who were slicing through Greeks... Those greeks weren't Spartan Hoplites... They were Athenians and Thebans and other tribes. So, that isn't nearly as impressive as slicing through Spartans. That's the first thing you don't seem to get.

I understand perfectly well. But by your own logic, all the enemies the Spartans sliced through were nameless Persians, so none of their feats are impressive either. And exactly when did the Uber Immortal, Leonidas' toughest opponent, "slice" through Spartans? He kicked Dilios and knocked another no-name Spartan out of the way. The rest of the time he was engaged with Leonidas. People wank the fact that they are Spartans, while totally ignoring their actual individual combat feats, way too much.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi

Second, you keep claiming PIS for the Uber immortal but that is just a lame excuse. I could claim it was PIS for Leo to even engage him at all... When he was fighting one greek Leo was just standing there as the uber had his back to him... he could impaled him right there... Or thrown a spear at him as soon as he attacked. I could say all those things but who cares. All that matters is... leo defeated him in battle. Also, how can you say the Uber was dominating him... Leo sliced his leg and stuck a sword in his arm before even being touched. I think you need to rewatch the scene in question. Him beating that immortal was more impressive than Them slicing though some immortals who beat a bunch of no name greeks. It really isn't close actually

Leonidas was the one who had his back to the Uber Immortal, which is why Dilios had to pull him down so that he didn't get decapitated by an axe throw. And yes he was losing badly, because his hits were having zero effect on the Uber Immortal. He was getting thrown around and was in a terrible position, when the Uber Immortal could have easily killed him, but then chose to act stupid instead. Him stopping his offensive to growl is a far greater act of PIS than Leonidas engaging him in battle, like he had been doing to every one of his opponents throughout the entire film. Leonidas engaging the Uber Immortal is not PIS. The Uber Immortal stopping to act like an idiot, when he had a clear advantage, is PIS. That's the definition of PIS. When a character suddenly acts stupid for the sake of the plot.

And again, front line Immortal troops were overwhelming individual Spartans (the guys you keep going on about how impressive it is to kill) in 2s, 3s and 4s, where Themistocles steamrolled through Artemisia's personal Immortal troops. Unless you want to suggest that she, one of Xerxes' greatest and most important commanders, would have been assigned poorer/weaker troops than standard Immortal soldiers.

And yet AGAIN, the Uber Immortal is VISIBLY slower and less skilled than the Immortals Themistocles fought, or Artemisia for that matter. Themistocles fought multiple individuals who ALL are visibly faster and have way better fighting technique than the Uber Immortal. And none of them stopped their offensive to growl at him, leaving themselves open to get killed. But keep ignoring that GLARING fact.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi

Third, I understand perfectly where we are and you I get what you are arguing and why. What I'm saying is.. When two people are close to each other in a movie setting... which these two seem to be.. I would much prefer to go with somebody who I ACTUALLY know would shit stomp the other in real life. That's just me I guess.

The point is still that their RL counterparts do not feature here. What you are doing is trying to apply RL constraints of real life people, on movie character that are only loosely based on them. The 300 version of Leonidas is based off the comic. Themistocles is based off of the yet to be released comic, Xerxes. Both are fictional stories, loosely based on the Persian invasion of Greece, written by Frank Miller. And yeah, it really is only you who thinks that because RL Leonidas > RL Themistocles, the same is true of their movie versions.

RJ 2.0

Why are you guys comparing Spartans to Theo's men? This is Theo vs Leo, one on one combat.

Lestov16

In order to compare who was better, one has to determine who had tougher opponents.

TheVaultDweller

Well Kurupt keeps going on about how the faster and more skilled Immortals are less impressive because they didn't "slice" through Spartans, but other Greek soldiers instead. He is also fabricating things. The Uber Immortal, at no point, is fighting Greeks with his back to Leonidas. Basically the polar opposite is true. After Leonidas saved Dilios' life, he has his back turned and then Dilios saves him from an axe throw. That's when both of them first genuinely become aware of the Uber Immortal.

The Uber Immortal also doesn't actually kill a single Spartan (or any Greek for that matter) throughout his entire onscreen appearance. He tries to strike Dilios, who blocks his hit, and then he kicks him. He then engages Leonidas for a bit and disarms him of his spear, then beats him back with blows to his shield. Another random Spartan charges the Uber Immortal and gets knocked to the ground. Then the Uber Immortal goes back to fighting Leonidas, knocks him around, disarms him of his sword and gets him in a mount. Then, like a dumbass, suddenly decides that using weapons, or even just his hands for that matter, is no longer a good idea, and spends several seconds growling at Leonidas, throwing away the clear advantage he had and leaving himself open to attack.

Kurupt then tries to claim that that isn't an example of PIS, and tries to claim that Leonidas not throwing his spear at the Uber Immortal is PIS. Problem is that the Uber Immortal was only a few meters away at the time that they first properly come face to face. Fact is, actually throwing his spear would have been a perfect example of PIS. Any person who has extensive knowledge and experience with knife, sword, spear etc. fighting will tell you that, unless your opponent has a ranged weapon, or you are 100% totally sure that your throw will kill them, willingly disarming yourself of your most far reaching weapon, in the middle of a busy battlefield, is the absolute most stupid thing you can do. Leonidas trying to engage the Uber Immortal in close range, with his spear, was the most tactically sound thing he could do in a one-on-one fight.

KuRuPT Thanosi

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Well Kurupt keeps going on about how the faster and more skilled Immortals are less impressive because they didn't "slice" through Spartans, but other Greek soldiers instead. He is also fabricating things. The Uber Immortal, at no point, is fighting Greeks with his back to Leonidas. Basically the polar opposite is true. After Leonidas saved Dilios' life, he has his back turned and then Dilios saves him from an axe throw. That's when both of them first genuinely become aware of the Uber Immortal.

The Uber Immortal also doesn't actually kill a single Spartan (or any Greek for that matter) throughout his entire onscreen appearance. He tries to strike Dilios, who blocks his hit, and then he kicks him. He then engages Leonidas for a bit and disarms him of his spear, then beats him back with blows to his shield. Another random Spartan charges the Uber Immortal and gets knocked to the ground. Then the Uber Immortal goes back to fighting Leonidas, knocks him around, disarms him of his sword and gets him in a mount. Then, like a dumbass, suddenly decides that using weapons, or even just his hands for that matter, is no longer a good idea, and spends several seconds growling at Leonidas, throwing away the clear advantage he had and leaving himself open to attack.

Kurupt then tries to claim that that isn't an example of PIS, and tries to claim that Leonidas not throwing his spear at the Uber Immortal is PIS. Problem is that the Uber Immortal was only a few meters away at the time that they first properly come face to face. Fact is, actually throwing his spear would have been a perfect example of PIS. Any person who has extensive knowledge and experience with knife, sword, spear etc. fighting will tell you that, unless your opponent has a ranged weapon, or you are 100% totally sure that your throw will kill them, willingly disarming yourself of your most far reaching weapon, in the middle of a busy battlefield, is the absolute most stupid thing you can do. Leonidas trying to engage the Uber Immortal in close range, with his spear, was the most tactically sound thing he could do in a one-on-one fight.

Did you even watch the scene? WATCH IT AGAIN!!! After the failed axe throw... The uber immortal has his back to Leo for a split second as LEO IS FACING HIM AS HE'S RISING.. He did have his back to him for a brief period of time JUST as I claimed. It seems you literally have no idea about Spartans or Greeks in general I see. Do you comprehend that the greeks the immortals were slicing through WEREN'T SPARTAN HOPLITES? You understand they are superior to the Thebans and Athenians the immortals were slicing through? i'm generally curious if you get this point? The immortals killed some Spartans sure.. but they were also routed with relative ease. You throwing out some line like... Ohhh the Spartans were overwhelmed at times by numbers is being disingenuous to what actually occurred. The immortals outnumbered the Spartans and Greek by a significant number and were routed. Some occasional Spartans getting killed doesn't change that one bit.

Wait are you claiming RL Leo isn't greater than RL Them? you said I'M THE ONLY ONE WHO THINKS THIS? If you don't agree then just say so, then I can just ignore you from here forward before I run the risk of losing brain cells talking with you. There is ZERO doubt at all that RL Leo would trounce Them in battle. That shouldn't even be a question if you understand and have read greek history. If you haven't, fine, but don't say I'm the only one as if I'm wrong. Just say you're not educated on the subject and we can move forward.

Lastly, you act like That Uber immortal wouldn't have sliced through the immortals Them went through. He absolutely would have with ease. So Them beating some no name immortals who in turn beat no name NON Spartan greeks isn't nearly as impressive. Leo BEAT that Immortal one v one. Period, end of discussion. That was much more impressive than THem beating some immortals. You act like the blows he landed don't count because they didn't stop the uber.. Ummm WTF... Of course they count... he was landing blows that would've killed most others... It just so happens the uber immortal has crazy durability... VASTLY superior to anybody Them beat and it's not even close.

RJ 2.0

Originally posted by Lestov16
In order to compare who was better, one has to determine who had tougher opponents. They had the same opponents......

KuRuPT Thanosi

Only they didn't

Robtard

Originally posted by RJ 2.0
They had the same opponents......

I don't recall the Athenians taking on ogres, charging battle rhinos, super-massive war elephants, voodoo mother****ers tossing firebombs or a lobby of arrows that literally blocked out the sun, brah.

KuRuPT Thanosi

Amazing how people just assume all greats were the same caliber of opponents

TheVaultDweller

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Did you even watch the scene? WATCH IT AGAIN!!! After the failed axe throw... The uber immortal has his back to Leo for a split second as LEO IS FACING HIM AS HE'S RISING.. He did have his back to him for a brief period of time JUST as I claimed. It seems you literally have no idea about Spartans or Greeks in general I see. Do you comprehend that the greeks the immortals were slicing through WEREN'T SPARTAN HOPLITES? You understand they are superior to the Thebans and Athenians the immortals were slicing through? i'm generally curious if you get this point? The immortals killed some Spartans sure.. but they were also routed with relative ease. You throwing out some line like... Ohhh the Spartans were overwhelmed at times by numbers is being disingenuous to what actually occurred. The immortals outnumbered the Spartans and Greek by a significant number and were routed. Some occasional Spartans getting killed doesn't change that one bit.

You mean after the Uber Immortal kicked Dilios (NOT after the axe throw) and Leonidas was still getting back up to a proper fighting position? He wasn't even in range, and by the time he was in a position to thrust, the Uber Immortal was already facing him. So claiming he could have one-shot killed the Uber Immortal within a split second, at an awkward range and from an awkward position, is reaching on your part. And I am well aware of the difference between the various Greek factions and fully get what you are implying. You are the one who is completely failing to grasp what I am saying.

The point I am making is that an individual Spartan can be overwhelmed by a handful of Immortals. Themistocles faced a group of Immortals and defeated them with ease. Outnumbered, individual Spartans were brought down by Immortals. Outnumbered, Themistocles shitstomped Immortals. I cannot understand how you are unable to get this.

And in anyways, your rant about slicing through Spartans is also actually pointless, as the Uber Immortal NEVER did this. He doesn't kill a single Spartan. Not one. So even if the Immortals Themistocles faced never killed Spartans, neither did the Uber Immortal. They, however, do visibly display greater speed and skill than he does. Yet you keep ignoring this, and hash out the same old tired point that their opponents weren't Spartans.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi

Wait are you claiming RL Leo isn't greater than RL Them? you said I'M THE ONLY ONE WHO THINKS THIS? If you don't agree then just say so, then I can just ignore you from here forward before I run the risk of losing brain cells talking with you. There is ZERO doubt at all that RL Leo would trounce Them in battle. That shouldn't even be a question if you understand and have read greek history. If you haven't, fine, but don't say I'm the only one as if I'm wrong. Just say you're not educated on the subject and we can move forward.

Massive reading comprehension failure on your part, which seems to be consistent with the rest of your posts. I have posted multiple times that RL Leonidas > RL Themistocles, but that it doesn't matter in this fight. I said that you are the only one that thinks that because RL Leonidas > to RL Themistocles, the same holds true for their MOVIE counterparts. I really don't know why I keep bothering, because it is clear that you are not reading my posts properly before replying.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi

Lastly, you act like That Uber immortal wouldn't have sliced through the immortals Them went through. He absolutely would have with ease. So Them beating some no name immortals who in turn beat no name NON Spartan greeks isn't nearly as impressive. Leo BEAT that Immortal one v one. Period, end of discussion. That was much more impressive than THem beating some immortals. You act like the blows he landed don't count because they didn't stop the uber.. Ummm WTF... Of course they count... he was landing blows that would've killed most others... It just so happens the uber immortal has crazy durability... VASTLY superior to anybody Them beat and it's not even close.

That is a completely baseless claim on your part. Prove that the Uber Immortal can slice through multiple opponents coming at him from various directions at the same time, all of whom are faster and more skilled than he is. He would have been able to kill some of them but, based on his shown speed and skill compared to theirs, he would have ended up skewered eventually.

Also... landing blows that would have killed most others? What a joke. Artemisia also gives Themistocles a leg cut during their fight. Does he keel over and die? No, it doesn't even slow him down. The only blow Leonidas landed, before the spear tip thrust, that would have seriously hampered anyone else, is the sword through the arm, and that would not have been fatal either.

The Uber Immortal's durability didn't help him for shit when his head got removed. Nor would it have helped him if one of his limbs got severed (a tactic Themistocles uses on multiple occasions against slower opponents).

But the main problem with your argument is that you are ignoring what we visibly see on screen, and wank the Spartans purely because they are Spartans. You ignore the fact that we visibly see that the Immortals Themistocles faces are faster and more skilled than the Uber Immortal. You ignore the fact that Leonidas struggled and nearly got killed in the process, and needed some stupidity on the part of the Uber Immortal to win, where as Themistocles effortlessly defeated the multiple Immortals he faced. You ignore the fact that we see Spartans fall under similar circumstances. You ignore the fact that he also beat Artemisia, who is also way faster and more skilled than the Uber Immortal.

Your whole argument is based on the fact that some people are Spartans and some people aren't, instead of looking at their actual individual onscreen combat feats. Spartans fighting as a group doesn't matter one single bit in this thread. They are renowned for fighting as a unit, and in a matchup between Leonidas and his 300 vs Themistocles and 300 of his men, the Spartans would stomp. But this is NOT that match. This is a one-on-one matchup between Themistocles and Leonidas. As a group, the Spartans display more martial skill than Themistocles and his men. Individually, they do not.

RJ 2.0

Originally posted by Robtard
I don't recall the Athenians taking on ogres, charging battle rhinos, super-massive war elephants, voodoo mother****ers tossing firebombs or a lobby of arrows that literally blocked out the sun, brah. All of which have nothing to do with Theo and Leo in a 1v1. We might as well ask if the Athenians can duplicate the Spartan feats, and vice versa.

Robtard

Originally posted by RJ 2.0
All of which have nothing to do with Theo and Leo in a 1v1. We might as well ask if the Athenians can duplicate the Spartan feats, and vice versa.

And 1v1 Leonidas goes through like a steam-engine set at full boil. Choo-choooooo!

KuRuPT Thanosi

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
You mean after the Uber Immortal kicked Dilios (NOT after the axe throw) and Leonidas was still getting back up to a proper fighting position? He wasn't even in range, and by the time he was in a position to thrust, the Uber Immortal was already facing him. So claiming he could have one-shot killed the Uber Immortal within a split second, at an awkward range and from an awkward position, is reaching on your part. And I am well aware of the difference between the various Greek factions and fully get what you are implying. You are the one who is completely failing to grasp what I am saying.

The point I am making is that an individual Spartan can be overwhelmed by a handful of Immortals. Themistocles faced a group of Immortals and defeated them with ease. Outnumbered, individual Spartans were brought down by Immortals. Outnumbered, Themistocles shitstomped Immortals. I cannot understand how you are unable to get this.

And in anyways, your rant about slicing through Spartans is also actually pointless, as the Uber Immortal NEVER did this. He doesn't kill a single Spartan. Not one. So even if the Immortals Themistocles faced never killed Spartans, neither did the Uber Immortal. They, however, do visibly display greater speed and skill than he does. Yet you keep ignoring this, and hash out the same old tired point that their opponents weren't Spartans.

Massive reading comprehension failure on your part, which seems to be consistent with the rest of your posts. I have posted multiple times that RL Leonidas > RL Themistocles, but that it doesn't matter in this fight. I said that you are the only one that thinks that because RL Leonidas > to RL Themistocles, the same holds true for their MOVIE counterparts. I really don't know why I keep bothering, because it is clear that you are not reading my posts properly before replying.

That is a completely baseless claim on your part. Prove that the Uber Immortal can slice through multiple opponents coming at him from various directions at the same time, all of whom are faster and more skilled than he is. He would have been able to kill some of them but, based on his shown speed and skill compared to theirs, he would have ended up skewered eventually.

Also... landing blows that would have killed most others? What a joke. Artemisia also gives Themistocles a leg cut during their fight. Does he keel over and die? No, it doesn't even slow him down. The only blow Leonidas landed, before the spear tip thrust, that would have seriously hampered anyone else, is the sword through the arm, and that would not have been fatal either.

The Uber Immortal's durability didn't help him for shit when his head got removed. Nor would it have helped him if one of his limbs got severed (a tactic Themistocles uses on multiple occasions against slower opponents).

But the main problem with your argument is that you are ignoring what we visibly see on screen, and wank the Spartans purely because they are Spartans. You ignore the fact that we visibly see that the Immortals Themistocles faces are faster and more skilled than the Uber Immortal. You ignore the fact that Leonidas struggled and nearly got killed in the process, and needed some stupidity on the part of the Uber Immortal to win, where as Themistocles effortlessly defeated the multiple Immortals he faced. You ignore the fact that we see Spartans fall under similar circumstances. You ignore the fact that he also beat Artemisia, who is also way faster and more skilled than the Uber Immortal.

Your whole argument is based on the fact that some people are Spartans and some people aren't, instead of looking at their actual individual onscreen combat feats. Spartans fighting as a group doesn't matter one single bit in this thread. They are renowned for fighting as a unit, and in a matchup between Leonidas and his 300 vs Themistocles and 300 of his men, the Spartans would stomp. But this is NOT that match. This is a one-on-one matchup between Themistocles and Leonidas. As a group, the Spartans display more martial skill than Themistocles and his men. Individually, they do not.

He rose slowly to engage the Uber immortal in battle.. If he wanted to get off to a good start.. Why not rise quickly and impale him from behind while he had the chance? I never said it would be a killing blow.. In all likelihood it wouldn't with the durability shown by the uber... but the point is.. that was a stupid move on his part and according to you.. stupid moves means we can claim PIS.

So you will continue to be disingenuous then? The Spartans ROUTED the immortals in one v multiple immortals in battle. They weren't in their Phalanx formation when they fought the immortals they were fighting them one vs. many from all angles...Which you seem to splurge over. That is EXACTLY how very few Spartans ROUTED thousands of immortals. Did you even watch the movie? Some of them getting killed doesn't take away from the fact that most lived and most were engaging multiple immortals at the same time. Please don't belabor this point again and just concede it.

Why are you overly impressed with her "immortal guards" as if they were something special. You do realize the immortals the Spartan killed with the KING GOD's personal guard to. Once you see the movie again and listen for that line where this is confirmed.. ask yourself this... Would The King God have the best of the best immortals or would his general? Common sense thus tells us the Spartan ROUTED a superior group of immortals while vastly outnumbered. Unless of course you wanna believe the Rule of Persia who was PERSONALLY there in Greece decided to leave his best immortal guards behind with one of his generals. I sincerely hope you're not implying that.

I need to prove something that is clearly presented in the movie now? They presented the uber immortal as this super bad ass monster of man who is incredibly strong and durable is just that... a bad ass who is incredible strong and durable? Do I also need to prove the earth is round? The clear presentation of the movie is proof. Yes, that uber immortal would've routed those immortals that attacked Them... and if you disagree.. well the director slapping you in the face with clear things doesn't work for you I guess.

A sword through the arm wouldn't have been fatal in ancient warfare? Ummm it VERY WELL could've been fatal and easily so. There can be no disagreement about that. To say nothing of the spear through the eye.. which you seem to think would've been. That is two blows that could've been fatal to most men that the uber immortal basically laughed off with ease. I'd say his durability was pretty damn uber wouldn't you?

RJ 2.0

Originally posted by Robtard
And 1v1 Leonidas goes through like a steam-engine set at full boil. Choo-choooooo! Nah.

Robtard

Originally posted by RJ 2.0
Nah.

Cho-chooooo

KuRuPT Thanosi

Cho-Choooooo

RJ 2.0

Quanchi mad.

Robtard

And this is news?

RJ 2.0

It is always implied.

wallman77

Themis all day

KuRuPT Thanosi

Originally posted by wallman77
Themis all day

nah, not even close

TheVaultDweller

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
He rose slowly to engage the Uber immortal in battle.. If he wanted to get off to a good start.. Why not rise quickly and impale him from behind while he had the chance? I never said it would be a killing blow.. In all likelihood it wouldn't with the durability shown by the uber... but the point is.. that was a stupid move on his part and according to you.. stupid moves means we can claim PIS.

You clearly have very little knowledge of actual spear combat to claim this. Firstly, the Uber Immortal was already halfway turned and looking at Leonidas when his head even came into shot. So you have no basis to claim that he could have executed a thrust at the Immortal while his back was turned. Rising, he would not have been in a good position to execute a proper thrust, and would have had to over extend to reach the Uber Immortal. When this happens, you compromise balance and stability, and lose striking power. Over extending also leaves you completely defenseless. Straight thrusts are also much more easily avoided than slashes, especially if the person is halfway turned to the side and presenting a much smaller target. It's one of the reasons many weapons combat styles have a base combat stance where your hips are at an angle. So no, it was strategically sound to make sure he was in the proper position to execute a spear thrust. Making a wild jab would, in fact, have been stupid and needlessly risky.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi

So you will continue to be disingenuous then? The Spartans ROUTED the immortals in one v multiple immortals in battle. They weren't in their Phalanx formation when they fought the immortals they were fighting them one vs. many from all angles...Which you seem to splurge over. That is EXACTLY how very few Spartans ROUTED thousands of immortals. Did you even watch the movie? Some of them getting killed doesn't take away from the fact that most lived and most were engaging multiple immortals at the same time. Please don't belabor this point again and just concede it.

You are completely missing the point I am making. You are also ignoring that they had well over 300 other Greek soldiers launch a surprise flank attack during the route. Also, I am not denying that the Immortals got routed. We ARE NOT DEBATING Spartans as a group VS Immortals as a group. And you also ignore that there are multiple instances where Spartans would have been brought down, only to have their comrades save them. Dilios and the Captain are 2 examples, off the top of my head. Themistocles went in there completely on his own and took out more Immortals than any individual Spartan was actually shown doing in the same timeframe. But of course you are just going to continue ignoring this, and go on with your "they routed the Immortals" rant, like it detracts anything from the actual point I am making.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi

Why are you overly impressed with her "immortal guards" as if they were something special. You do realize the immortals the Spartan killed with the KING GOD's personal guard to. Once you see the movie again and listen for that line where this is confirmed.. ask yourself this... Would The King God have the best of the best immortals or would his general? Common sense thus tells us the Spartan ROUTED a superior group of immortals while vastly outnumbered. Unless of course you wanna believe the Rule of Persia who was PERSONALLY there in Greece decided to leave his best immortal guards behind with one of his generals. I sincerely hope you're not implying that.

The Immortals, as an entire fighting force, are labeled as Xerxes' personal guard. Not just the ones on the front lines. Also, was Xerxes on the front lines? No, he wasn't. So the very best would have been with him, protecting him in his camp. There were no high priority targets on the front lines, actually fighting the Spartans. Artemisia is frequently within striking distance of the enemy, and is a high value asset. So therefore, logic dictates that she would have had better soldiers guarding her than the troops NOT at Xerxes' side, fighting the Spartans. The only time the Spartans engage Xerxes' actual personal troops is right at the end of the film, when they get surrounded and killed, and the only one who shows anything impressive there is the Captain. In fact, based on screen feats, the Captain is the most skilled Spartan shown in 300.

Also, we have an onscreen comparison that shows that, based on actual shown screen ability, Artemisia's Immortals were, in fact, superior. We have non-Spartans also engage and fight Immortals, during the route you keep mentioning. Even after the element of surprise was gone, they engaged them on equal footing. So we have Immortals slaughtering non-Spartans one-on-one, and Immortals fighting evenly with non-Spartans one-on-one. You have to be blind to not see which would be superior. But I expect you will ignore this as well, and throw out another random line that doesn't actually address this point.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi

I need to prove something that is clearly presented in the movie now? They presented the uber immortal as this super bad ass monster of man who is incredibly strong and durable is just that... a bad ass who is incredible strong and durable? Do I also need to prove the earth is round? The clear presentation of the movie is proof. Yes, that uber immortal would've routed those immortals that attacked Them... and if you disagree.. well the director slapping you in the face with clear things doesn't work for you I guess.

No, it is not clearly represented in the film that a guy who had trouble with one person who is faster and more skilled than he is, can defeat a group of people, all at the same time, who are all faster and more skilled than he is. It's a baseless claim because, based on their actual shown speed and skill compared to his, he would have been brought down. Strength can only counter one person at a time, and taking several wounds would have overcome his durability eventually.

And of course, now you are going to throw your "But they weren't Spartans" line. That doesn't matter. And I will tell you why. The calibre of your opponent affects the outcome of a match, but it does NOT affect the speed and skill you yourself possess. Take Randy Couture in his prime, as an example. If he fights some random guy on the street, is he magically going to visibly move slower and develop sloppier technique because of an inferior opponent than what he normally faces? Of course not. We VISIBLY see that when the Immortal Guards move, they move faster than the Uber Immortal. We VISIBLY see that when they attack, they display smoother, more polished and better executed weapon technique than the Uber Immortal. Whether they are fighting Spartans or not, and whether they are winning or losing in the process, does not change this one bit. But you are either willfully ignoring this fact, or too dense to comprehend it.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi

A sword through the arm wouldn't have been fatal in ancient warfare? Ummm it VERY WELL could've been fatal and easily so. There can be no disagreement about that. To say nothing of the spear through the eye.. which you seem to think would've been. That is two blows that could've been fatal to most men that the uber immortal basically laughed off with ease. I'd say his durability was pretty damn uber wouldn't you?

Depending on whether or not the blow struck a major artery, it could have been fatal or not. Do we see blood fountaining out of the Uber Immortal's arm, especially in a film with over the top blood effects? No, we don't. So we can realise, based on common sense, that that specific blow did not strike anything critical and would not have been immediately fatal.

And where did he laugh off the spear tip through the eye? It was that blow that gave Leonidas the opening to decap him? And again, he only landed the spear tip strike because the Uber Immortal stopped fighting him for multiple seconds, after being in a far better position than Leonidas. Also, those 2 sword strikes earlier only came after Leonidas had some breathing room, thanks to another Spartan distracting the Uber Immortal, which allowed Leonidas to draw his sword. Until that moment, he had been completely on the back foot, doing his best to not get cut in half. Another thing you conveniently ignore.

Also, where did I say he didn't have good damage soak? Please quote me. I said that his damage soak does not prevent him from losing limbs. But then, you do only seem to read half of my posts before replying to them.

And you are still ignoring the manner in which both won their most impressive fights. Leonidas struggled and barely won, even with another Spartan distracting the Uber Immortal, and the Uber Immortal stopping his assault for several seconds, leaving himself open. Themistocles EASILY bested Immortals who, by actual screen feats and not simple reputation, are better than the ones the Spartans fought.

TheVaultDweller

Previous post continued:

And you are STILL also ignoring that he beat Artemisia afterwards, who also VISIBLY displays better combat speed and weapon skill than the Uber Immortal, and is mentioned in the film as possibly the best sword fighter in the entire Persian Empire. And he did it while seemingly holding back. Early on in their fight, he lands a haymaker that spins her around and could have easily impaled her right there (he was actually within range and VISIBLY combat ready to do so). He lets her recover. They seemingly fight evenly, and ends in what appears to be a draw. But he then shows himself to be able to disarm her with relative ease, and begs her to surrender and to not force his hand. Then, when she attacks again and he realises she won't surrender, he guts her within seconds. But you keep ignoring his fight with Artemisia, despite me bringing it up over and over and over again.

So basically, you misinterpret or misread half my posts. You keep bringing up facts that have nothing to do with the points I am raising, or ignore them completely. You conveniently omit or distort things we see onscreen (like your claim that Leonidas was "just standing around" while the Uber Immortal was fighting Dilios). You call PIS on strategically sound decisions, while ignoring a glaring example actual PIS. You make baseless claims, then try being sarcastic when I ask you to prove them. And you bring totally irrelevant RL facts into the debate. And that is why I am ignoring you from this point forward. I have better things to do than argue with someone who does all that, and then has the nerve to imply that I am not being objective, or that I am not the one understanding things.

Themistocles wins, based on better screen feats. But continue to ignore it, along with half the points I raise in this thread. I can't be bothered to waste more time on you.

juggerman

Though I like Leonidas better as a character, Themistocles wins more often than not. And that sucks ass!

TheVaultDweller

Originally posted by juggerman
Though I like Leonidas better as a character, Themistocles wins more often than not. And that sucks ass!

I agree. 300 is a way better movie. Leonidas is a way better character. But then, Sullivan Stapleton, the guy who plays Themistocles, has one of those faces you just want to punch. However, in a one-on-one match, based on their individual feats, Themistocles holds the upper hand.

juggerman

Pretty much

KuRuPT Thanosi

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller

What on God's green earth are you talking about... He was TOO Far away for a spear thrust.. That's a total and complete lie... I'm curious though.. How far exactly was he? I'm going to enjoy this response. Anyways, he wasn't too far away for a spear thrust and rose slowly for dramatic effect. He could've rose quicker and launched an attack right away while the immortal would've had his back to him still. There is no disputing he could've done this but decided not to. I'm the last person to claim PIS.. I'm was simply pointing out the error in yoru ways by claiming PIS. Simple.

I'm missing the point... That's truly laughable. You tried to make a point that the spartan's were inferior because they were shown being taken out on occasion by the immortals when outnumbered. It's a ridiculous point because MORE TIMES THAN NOT.. they were BEATING AND KILLING MULTIPLE IMMORTALS at the same time. In EACH scene shown in that battle.. they weren't in their formation they attacked individually and were fighting multiple foes at once. This is CLEARLY shown. Mind you against a SUPERIOR force (which I'll get to later) . So how does it matter one bit that a few spartans died, when the majority lived and killed a SIGNIFICANT No. of immortals and many times while fighting multiple immortals at the same time? Do you how silly of a point you were trying to make? You can claim we didn't see it on screen but that is irrelevant.. we don't see multiple things on screen that we take a fact via dialogue about it afterwards. When we know the immortals numbered in the Thousands.. and the Greeks had a much smaller force.. we also see them fighting multiple immortals at the same time... We also get dialogue that they were routed... YES WE KNOW THEY KILLED A GREAT MANY IMMORTALS INDIVIDUALLY.

WTF are you talking about... The God King was at the battle.. he even came to see Leo... he wasn't in some distant land way away from the battlefield.. he was in very close proximity to the battle. Further, the line reads the PERSONAL GUARD of KING XERXES HIMSELF. You not thinking it was his personal guard is just that you NOT THINKING. We go by what is said and shown. We see Xerxes personal guard attack the spartans and get routed. Yes, he would've had the best of the best immortals with him and to engage the spartans in battle. Afterall, this is where the land war was taking place... Why would he leave his best immortals some place totally different than where the ground invasion was taking place and not with him? That's beyond idiotic to even think he would do that. So what we are left with is individual spartans routing a superior group of immortals than what Them faced and they did so one vs. multiple foes just like Them did. In fact, they killed many many more than Them even came close to killing.

You're not understand something... If 4 of the immortals that attacked Them attacked the Uber.. he would take out one right away... like he was shown doing to A SUPERIOR FOE. The spartans are CLEARLY superior to the immortals. He was shown dealing with Dillos.. another Spartan tries to attack him FROM THE SIDE and he's dealt with. He tanked blows left and right... So if that same group attacked him... One would be dealt with right away and KO'd... probably another right after... The other two might land some blows that he would just tank and then finish off the other two. To even think this wouldn't be possible for the uber immortal to do is laughable and bordering on Idiotic. It's more likely that he would've routed that same group that attacked Them not the opposite.

The point is.. you said it wasn't a killing blow.. in ancient warfare that was MORE LIKELY a killing blow than it not being one. There is simple no disputing this point.

Why would I be impressed him him killing her... What combat feats did she have again.. Please show me these feats that make her the best swordsman in persia. She wasn't impressive to me , and not to be chauvinistic, but he's still a woman. Nothing really impressive there in the lease.

Think about your logic

You think Them is better becaus he beat an INFERIOR group of immortals who in turn beat an inferior group of greeks. That is LITERALLY what you're saying. It's proven that those immortals were inferior to the ones killed by the spartans. We also know that the greeks those immortals killed were inferior to the spartans. NOTHING, literally NOTHING about that makes logical sense to deduce Them is thus better.

Lastly, you literally don't watch ANY MMA, Boxing or been in real life fights to claim what you just did. Of course couture would look BETTER fighting a random dude than a trained MMA artist. He would appear faster.. stronger.. better technique against somebody with none. The fact that you don't even know this tells me you haven't the slightest clue about combat sports. Even a trained MMA artist can be routed and look terrible against Aldo.. yet a superior MMA fighter can still lose but Aldo not look as fast.. as strong and good. That is EXACTLY what happens and how it appears in real life. I'm literally baffled that you didn't know this.

TheVaultDweller

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
What on God's green earth are you talking about... He was TOO Far away for a spear thrust.. That's a total and complete lie... I'm curious though.. How far exactly was he? I'm going to enjoy this response. Anyways, he wasn't too far away for a spear thrust and rose slowly for dramatic effect. He could've rose quicker and launched an attack right away while the immortal would've had his back to him still. There is no disputing he could've done this but decided not to. I'm the last person to claim PIS.. I'm was simply pointing out the error in yoru ways by claiming PIS. Simple.

I'm missing the point... That's truly laughable. You tried to make a point that the spartan's were inferior because they were shown being taken out on occasion by the immortals when outnumbered. It's a ridiculous point because MORE TIMES THAN NOT.. they were BEATING AND KILLING MULTIPLE IMMORTALS at the same time. In EACH scene shown in that battle.. they weren't in their formation they attacked individually and were fighting multiple foes at once. This is CLEARLY shown. Mind you against a SUPERIOR force (which I'll get to later) . So how does it matter one bit that a few spartans died, when the majority lived and killed a SIGNIFICANT No. of immortals and many times while fighting multiple immortals at the same time? Do you how silly of a point you were trying to make? You can claim we didn't see it on screen but that is irrelevant.. we don't see multiple things on screen that we take a fact via dialogue about it afterwards. When we know the immortals numbered in the Thousands.. and the Greeks had a much smaller force.. we also see them fighting multiple immortals at the same time... We also get dialogue that they were routed... YES WE KNOW THEY KILLED A GREAT MANY IMMORTALS INDIVIDUALLY.

WTF are you talking about... The God King was at the battle.. he even came to see Leo... he wasn't in some distant land way away from the battlefield.. he was in very close proximity to the battle. Further, the line reads the PERSONAL GUARD of KING XERXES HIMSELF. You not thinking it was his personal guard is just that you NOT THINKING. We go by what is said and shown. We see Xerxes personal guard attack the spartans and get routed. Yes, he would've had the best of the best immortals with him and to engage the spartans in battle. Afterall, this is where the land war was taking place... Why would he leave his best immortals some place totally different than where the ground invasion was taking place and not with him? That's beyond idiotic to even think he would do that. So what we are left with is individual spartans routing a superior group of immortals than what Them faced and they did so one vs. multiple foes just like Them did. In fact, they killed many many more than Them even came close to killing.

You're not understand something... If 4 of the immortals that attacked Them attacked the Uber.. he would take out one right away... like he was shown doing to A SUPERIOR FOE. The spartans are CLEARLY superior to the immortals. He was shown dealing with Dillos.. another Spartan tries to attack him FROM THE SIDE and he's dealt with. He tanked blows left and right... So if that same group attacked him... One would be dealt with right away and KO'd... probably another right after... The other two might land some blows that he would just tank and then finish off the other two. To even think this wouldn't be possible for the uber immortal to do is laughable and bordering on Idiotic. It's more likely that he would've routed that same group that attacked Them not the opposite.

The point is.. you said it wasn't a killing blow.. in ancient warfare that was MORE LIKELY a killing blow than it not being one. There is simple no disputing this point.

Why would I be impressed him him killing her... What combat feats did she have again.. Please show me these feats that make her the best swordsman in persia. She wasn't impressive to me , and not to be chauvinistic, but he's still a woman. Nothing really impressive there in the lease.

Think about your logic

You think Them is better becaus he beat an INFERIOR group of immortals who in turn beat an inferior group of greeks. That is LITERALLY what you're saying. It's proven that those immortals were inferior to the ones killed by the spartans. We also know that the greeks those immortals killed were inferior to the spartans. NOTHING, literally NOTHING about that makes logical sense to deduce Them is thus better.

Lastly, you literally don't watch ANY MMA, Boxing or been in real life fights to claim what you just did. Of course couture would look BETTER fighting a random dude than a trained MMA artist. He would appear faster.. stronger.. better technique against somebody with none. The fact that you don't even know this tells me you haven't the slightest clue about combat sports. Even a trained MMA artist can be routed and look terrible against Aldo.. yet a superior MMA fighter can still lose but Aldo not look as fast.. as strong and good. That is EXACTLY what happens and how it appears in real life. I'm literally baffled that you didn't know this.

And once again you are making claims without screen evidence. For example, that Leonidas could have launched an attack while the UI had his back turned, when we don't even see his position or his battle readiness at that moment. Also when he rises, his head rises at a slight arch, which implies that he was not even directly looking at the Uber Immortal before he was already turning. And yes, when he actually gets into a position to launch an attack, he lundges forward while doing so (to get closer, because he was initially TOO FAR AWAY), keeping his weight on his front leg, like you are supposed to with a spear thrust. Not something you can do properly in the position he was in when we see him for the first time, when the UI was already halfway turned and looking at him. Also, omitting certain aspects of things (like Dilios lying on the ground when the Immortal attacked him, or that we have a direct example of the two groups of Immortals fighting non-Greeks, and one group doing much better), and reading what you want to read, instead what I am actually saying (like me saying Xerxes was not on the FRONTLINES for the actual battles, or that the specific sword thrust in question wasn't lethal, or that Themistocles, without anyone watching his back, killed more Immortals in the same timeframe. And it is only someone who actually does not know much about actual fighting technique would claim what you did with Couture. I do have martial arts experience, and have watched a lot of fights. And unlike you, I am actually able to discern different levels of skill and speed, without one guy needing to beat another guy. For example, I have friends who dominate the local Muay Thai fighting circuit, and look great doing it. But when I look at them, and look at videos of the guys who fight in Thailand, I can tell with my own eyes that the Thai fighters are better, even the ones on the losing side. I am seriously questioning your ability to comprehend the post of others.

So just as I predicted, you have distorted some facts, made more baseless claims contradicted by the actual films, and misread my posts. And this is why I am replying to you for the last time now.

And it is also telling that the majority of people in this thread agrees with me that Themistocles wins, and has better screen feats. But I guess now you are going to tell me that we're all wrong and you're right. But I really don't care. I know I am right. Most of the people in this thread know I am right. So your opinion is irrelevant to me.

Time Immemorial

How does KuRuPT Thanosi pick which words he is going to capitalize?

TheVaultDweller

Doh, made a typo in the last post. Meant to write non-Spartans, not non-Greeks.

Time Immemorial

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Doh, made a typo in the last post. Meant to write non-Spartans, not non-Greeks.

Hey don't take life to seriously smile

KuRuPT Thanosi

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
And once again you are making claims without screen evidence. For example, that Leonidas could have launched an attack while the UI had his back turned, when we don't even see his position or his battle readiness at that moment. Also when he rises, his head rises at a slight arch, which implies that he was not even directly looking at the Uber Immortal before he was already turning. And yes, when he actually gets into a position to launch an attack, he lundges forward while doing so (to get closer, because he was initially TOO FAR AWAY), keeping his weight on his front leg, like you are supposed to with a spear thrust. Not something you can do properly in the position he was in when we see him for the first time, when the UI was already halfway turned and looking at him. Also, omitting certain aspects of things (like Dilios lying on the ground when the Immortal attacked him, or that we have a direct example of the two groups of Immortals fighting non-Greeks, and one group doing much better), and reading what you want to read, instead what I am actually saying (like me saying Xerxes was not on the FRONTLINES for the actual battles, or that the specific sword thrust in question wasn't lethal, or that Themistocles, without anyone watching his back, killed more Immortals in the same timeframe. And it is only someone who actually does not know much about actual fighting technique would claim what you did with Couture. I do have martial arts experience, and have watched a lot of fights. And unlike you, I am actually able to discern different levels of skill and speed, without one guy needing to beat another guy. For example, I have friends who dominate the local Muay Thai fighting circuit, and look great doing it. But when I look at them, and look at videos of the guys who fight in Thailand, I can tell with my own eyes that the Thai fighters are better, even the ones on the losing side. I am seriously questioning your ability to comprehend the post of others.

So just as I predicted, you have distorted some facts, made more baseless claims contradicted by the actual films, and misread my posts. And this is why I am replying to you for the last time now.

And it is also telling that the majority of people in this thread agrees with me that Themistocles wins, and has better screen feats. But I guess now you are going to tell me that we're all wrong and you're right. But I really don't care. I know I am right. Most of the people in this thread know I am right. So your opinion is irrelevant to me.

With the line of logic you use and how you deduce things... It's a wonder I lasted this long in the conversation. I literally broke down your logic to.. An inferior group of immortals beat an inferior group of greeks and was routed by Them.. This somehow is greater than.. A Superior group of immortals being routed by Spartans in one vs. multiple immortal situation. That's literally what you're trying to say and it makes no logical sense.

Now, onto real life fighting for a moment. I have combat experience myself.. boxing experience to be more specific. Your example holds NO water.. Let's use some more concrete examples shall we.. Watch a fight between Sweet Pea vs. McGirt and Sweet Pea against Ramirez. The speed.. timing.. counter punching and movement of Mcgirt make Pea not look as fast..as good defensively or offensively among other things. If you never saw the Mcgirt fight and just saw the Ramirez fight... you might think Pea was one of the fastest boxers that ever lived. Who your foe is makes all the difference in the world in how the fight will go and how good you'll look. Even at an elementary level.. if your'e fighting somebody good.. and get dominated... that looks much worse than fighting somebody shitty and you dominating them. You tried to prove a point and failed miserably at it. Who your opponent will ALWAYS affect how you look and how the fight will go. Not to say you can't still look good.. but you'll always look better against inferior people. That's a fact. How about an example closer to home...

Take a look at Randy Couture vs. Mike Van Arsdale and Couture vs. Kevin Randleman... If you watched the Randleman fight... you might come to the conclusion that Randy Couture isn't that good of a Wrestler, even though we all know that he is. Randleman dominated him in the wrestling aspect of the game and made him look like an amateur. We all know that he's not an amateur, and in fact, quite the opposite. Yet, when he fought Mike.. he looked like a great wrestler who dominated a decorated wrestler. Point is, who your opponent is can make you look much better or much worse. To even say this isn't true is laughable at best.

Time Immemorial

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
With the line of logic you use and how you deduce things... It's a wonder I lasted this long in the conversation. I literally broke down your logic to.. An inferior group of immortals beat an inferior group of greeks and was routed by Them.. This somehow is greater than.. A Superior group of immortals being routed by Spartans in one vs. multiple immortal situation. That's literally what you're trying to say and it makes no logical sense.

Now, onto real life fighting for a moment. I have combat experience myself.. boxing experience to be more specific. Your example holds NO water.. Let's use some more concrete examples shall we.. Watch a fight between Sweet Pea vs. McGirt and Sweet Pea against Ramirez. The speed.. timing.. counter punching and movement of Mcgirt make Pea not look as fast..as good defensively or offensively among other things. If you never saw the Mcgirt fight and just saw the Ramirez fight... you might think Pea was one of the fastest boxers that ever lived. Who your foe is makes all the difference in the world in how the fight will go and how good you'll look. Even at an elementary level.. if your'e fighting somebody good.. and get dominated... that looks much worse than fighting somebody shitty and you dominating them. You tried to prove a point and failed miserably at it. Who your opponent will ALWAYS affect how you look and how the fight will go. Not to say you can't still look good.. but you'll always look better against inferior people. That's a fact. How about an example closer to home...

Take a look at Randy Couture vs. Mike Van Arsdale and Couture vs. Kevin Randleman... If you watched the Randleman fight... you might come to the conclusion that Randy Couture isn't that good of a Wrestler, even though we all know that he is. Randleman dominated him in the wrestling aspect of the game and made him look like an amateur. We all know that he's not an amateur, and in fact, quite the opposite. Yet, when he fought Mike.. he looked like a great wrestler who dominated a decorated wrestler. Point is, who your opponent is can make you look much better or much worse. To even say this isn't true is laughable at best.

Only one improperly capitalized word here. laughing

TheVaultDweller

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Only one improperly capitalized word here. laughing

I can't be bothered to read his posts anymore. He has distorted what we see on screen and speculated about what he thinks is happening off screen, and claims that it is "indisputable facts". Like apparently kicking a guy when he is down and knocking over a yelling (giving him ample warning), bum rushing Spartan, is "tanking blows left and right".

And at the same time, continues to claim that the Immortals Themistocles faced are inferior to the ones the Spartans faced, even though the only direct comparison we have (both groups fighting against non-Spartans) clearly shows the ones Themistocles fought doing better. Also, ignoring Artemisia, simply because she is a woman, despite it being mentioned that she was trained by the best fighters Xerxes had, and that there was eventually no one could match her skill. Hell, as a preteen, she bested a full grown, muscular man. Or never mind the fact that they show her bringing Xerxes' the head of kings she took (which by his own arguments, would have been protected by their best soldiers). But apparently, unless you are a Spartan, it doesn't count.

So he is distorting facts about the Leonidas fight, while lowballing the shit out of Themistocles' opponents, in order to make his pick look better. Which is why I don't give a shit what he says anymore.

As to RL fighting, I have been doing martial arts for half my life. I mentioned Randy Couture because I personally know the guy who was his trainer for several years, and often train under that guy's brother myself. So him claiming that I know nothing about fighting is laughable. And all because he can't pick up on the more subtle things when seeing two people fight, and needs one to "dominate" the other before he gets clued in.

I've been doing martial arts long enough that I have called Muay Thai match results before they even started, because I could already see a difference in skill when the guys were warming up, before they even got to the ring. And they didn't need any kind of opponent to make them look better or worse, unless the air in front of them counts, while they are shadowboxing.

So he can make all the claims or typos he wants. I don't care anymore.

KuRuPT Thanosi

Pot meet Kettle there buddy.... You've been disingenuous about a great number of things... That the spartans weren't fighting multiple immortals at once... that the immortals them fought who rolled through Greeks wasn't that impressive since they weren't spartans... tried to low ball the uber immortal.... lied about one of xerxes generals having the best immortals with her (not true)... claimed PIS when there was no such thing, and if so, it was from both sides. I could go on and on. Here again you don't seem to realize that the immortals that faced the greek tribes aren't as good as Spartains... Just the facts. Neither was the group of immortals as good as the ones the spartans faced. I supplied the evidence for this very point.

That's nice you been doing whatever you've been doing for a long time.. clearly hasn't helped your logic nor how you view fights. You made the claim that people don't look better or worse depending who they fight. That is so idiotic it's not even funny. I referenced two fights your idol of sorts fought which clearly show the exact point I'm making. Funny you didn't respond to that.. not surprised. I'd be surprised if you've even seen the fights in question

TheVaultDweller

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi

Pot meet Kettle there buddy.... You've been disingenuous about a great number of things... That the spartans weren't fighting multiple immortals at once... that the immortals them fought who rolled through Greeks wasn't that impressive since they weren't spartans... tried to low ball the uber immortal.... lied about one of xerxes generals having the best immortals with her (not true)... claimed PIS when there was no such thing, and if so, it was from both sides. I could go on and on. Here again you don't seem to realize that the immortals that faced the greek tribes aren't as good as Spartains... Just the facts. Neither was the group of immortals as good as the ones the spartans faced. I supplied the evidence for this very point.

I would like to point out a few things.

No individual Spartan has a visual screen feats exactly like what Themistocles had. I never said they didn't fight multiple Immortals. I mention multiple times that both the Spartans and Themistocles were outnumbered. But we do not see them blocking, dodging and parrying blows from 3 different angles at the exact same time. The closest example is when the Captain goes on a rampage when his son is killed, and those are against normal Persians. I re-watched the entire Immortals battle we're discussing. Barring intervention by another Spartan, every time a Spartan gets attacked from multiple directions at the exact same time, it results in their death. And you are also ignoring the fact that towards the end of the battle, they did group together and reform their shield wall, and that is when the Immortals actually get routed.

No, I never said she had the best Immortals at her side. I said that logic dictates that she would have better guards than front line warriors, who were not side-by-side with Xerxes, while fighting the Spartans. And you act like the land and sea groups was separated by some massive distance, when we clearly see Artemisia interact with Xerxes face-to-face. And also ignore that the final battle, where she had Immortals with her, occurs after Leonidas is already dead, and Xerxes no longer has any threats remotely in the vicinity he is in.

And you supplied NO evidence to prove your opinion that those Immortals were better. Like I have pointed out, the only comparable on screen example we have is when the non-Spartans in 300 engage the Immortals during the flank attack, and do quite well against them, even after the element of surprise is spent. And in comparison, we see the other Immortals steamroll through non-Spartans. So the on screen evidence supports my viewpoint.

Also, how exactly am I lowballing the Uber Immortal by referencing exactly what happens on screen? He kicks a downed Spartan, knocks over another yelling and charging one, and has Leonidas on the back foot for the majority of the other parts of their fight, until he leans forward to growl at him, allowing Leonidas to stab him in the eye and decapitate him. This is exactly how the fight goes.

And also no, taking a moment to get your bearings in the middle of the battlefield, after being knocked to the ground, instead of trying a risky attack from an unknown position, and not willingly disarming yourself of your primary weapon, on that same battlefield, are both strategically sound decisions. Unless you want to tell me that attacking recklessly or throwing your weapon away on a gamble is a good idea?

So no, I have not lied or low-balled about anything. Every post I made has been in reference to what we actually see occuring on screen. And I noticed that a bunch of things you claim I said, I in fact didn't. Like me never saying Artemisia had the best Immortals with her. I even said that Xerxes probably had the very best with him, in his camp. You, on the other hand, have distorted screen feats, made assumptions about things we do not see and claimed it as fact, and totally ignored the feats of one person, purely because of their gender. Under normal circumstances, a woman would have had a tough time on the battlefield, amongst men. Because they generally have a strength disadvantage. But we clearly see Artemisia blocking and parrying strikes from large, muscular men. So we can see that she is much stronger than she appears, and that her strength is in the same class as the men she fought.

So I have based every single thing I have posted on the actual combat feats (the things that matter in a fight) of the various parties I references.

But anyway, I am tired of going around in circles. I am not going to convince you of my point. You most definitely are not going to convince me of yours. So let's just agree to disagree and move on, or spend another 10 pages going in circles. So you believe Leonidas wins, and have your arguments for it. I believe Themistocles wins, and have my arguments for it. Let's just leave it at that.

TheVaultDweller

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
That's nice you been doing whatever you've been doing for a long time.. clearly hasn't helped your logic nor how you view fights. You made the claim that people don't look better or worse depending who they fight. That is so idiotic it's not even funny. I referenced two fights your idol of sorts fought which clearly show the exact point I'm making. Funny you didn't respond to that.. not surprised. I'd be surprised if you've even seen the fights in question

No, Randy Couture is not my idol. I don't even personally like him. And again, you misread my posts. I said that they don't actually become slower or less skilled. I specifically said that the calibre of their opponents will affect the fight as a whole. Them appearing slower or less skilled to some people, because they have a better opponent, was not what I said at all. So again it is you who is getting angry and sarcastic because of something you misread.

Here is an example. Say we have multiple guys working on bags. All their opponents are stationary and non-reponsive. Now if you focus purely on them, you can easily notice differences. One guy might have better footwork. One might have a better guard position. One might have better punching or kicking technique. And what they are fighting does not matter, because you can directly see the differences between them by focusing purely on the individual in question.

Or watch an amateur league MMA bout, and then watch a UFC bout. I have seen guys dominate the amateur leagues and look far more impressive than their opponents. But when I watch a professional match afterwards, the gap in skill level is still glaringly obvious, even if the guy I am focusing on is losing. Like I mentioned above, you can visibly see when someone has better punching technique, or has better footwork, or executed their kicks or take downs better, without focusing on how their opponent responds.

Or let's try it another way. If I run 100m against a bunch of really unfit guys and trounce them, but Usain Bolt wins a close race, do I look faster and more impressive than him? Of course not. Because if you focus purely on both of us, without focusing on the race as a whole, you can see that he is visibly moving faster, and has better and smoother running technique than I do. And the same can be done with fights, if you focus on the actual individuals, instead of their opponent, or the fight as a whole. Well, at least I can. If you cannot, then that's on you. But I think that if you actually stopped to focus specifically on the individual fighters, you will actually see what I am talking about.

So here's a challenge. Take 2 fights of one of your favourite fighters. One where they win and one where they lose. Now watch the fights, and ignore the context of them winning or losing. Focus purely on how they move, how they throw their punches, kicks, take downs etc. If you do it that way, I am willing to be that you will actually notice that they do not appear faster/slower, more/less skilled in their separate fights. You will just notice that their opponent's technique and speed is better or worse than theirs is. That's how I view and analyse fights. I break them down into parts when I watch them, to get a better overall opinion on how good someone actually is. Not just how good they might look, depending on who they are fighting.

TheVaultDweller

I will admit that KuRuPT was right in one instance, that Xerxes was viewing at least the end of the battle between the Spartans, other Greeks and the Immortals, but well away from where the actual combat was busy taking place. But I think I blocked it out mentally, because that shot is such a massive plot hole with regards to the rest of the film. Because Xerxes seemingly knows exactly how to get into the perfect vantage point to view the entire battle, which is a MASSIVE high ground strategic advantage, but keeps charging troops head on at the Spartans, and only puts archers up there at the end of the film. So I chalk that shot up to a plot oversight, or otherwise Xerxes is EXTREMELY stupid.

And, in my opinion, it goes against his point that the very best were down fighting the Spartans. Because it does not logically make sense to me that he would be so near the battlefield, but put his very best troops in a position where they would be engaged and utterly unable to help him, should he be faced with personal danger. But eh, guess that's where our opinions differ, like with a lot of other things in the films. Which is why I still just think we should agree to disagree with each others opinions, and carry on with other things that doesn't involve arguing in circles.

KuRuPT Thanosi

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
I would like to point out a few things.

No individual Spartan has a visual screen feats exactly like what Themistocles had. I never said they didn't fight multiple Immortals. I mention multiple times that both the Spartans and Themistocles were outnumbered. But we do not see them blocking, dodging and parrying blows from 3 different angles at the exact same time. The closest example is when the Captain goes on a rampage when his son is killed, and those are against normal Persians. I re-watched the entire Immortals battle we're discussing. Barring intervention by another Spartan, every time a Spartan gets attacked from multiple directions at the exact same time, it results in their death. And you are also ignoring the fact that towards the end of the battle, they did group together and reform their shield wall, and that is when the Immortals actually get routed.

No, I never said she had the best Immortals at her side. I said that logic dictates that she would have better guards than front line warriors, who were not side-by-side with Xerxes, while fighting the Spartans. And you act like the land and sea groups was separated by some massive distance, when we clearly see Artemisia interact with Xerxes face-to-face. And also ignore that the final battle, where she had Immortals with her, occurs after Leonidas is already dead, and Xerxes no longer has any threats remotely in the vicinity he is in.

And you supplied NO evidence to prove your opinion that those Immortals were better. Like I have pointed out, the only comparable on screen example we have is when the non-Spartans in 300 engage the Immortals during the flank attack, and do quite well against them, even after the element of surprise is spent. And in comparison, we see the other Immortals steamroll through non-Spartans. So the on screen evidence supports my viewpoint.

Also, how exactly am I lowballing the Uber Immortal by referencing exactly what happens on screen? He kicks a downed Spartan, knocks over another yelling and charging one, and has Leonidas on the back foot for the majority of the other parts of their fight, until he leans forward to growl at him, allowing Leonidas to stab him in the eye and decapitate him. This is exactly how the fight goes.

And also no, taking a moment to get your bearings in the middle of the battlefield, after being knocked to the ground, instead of trying a risky attack from an unknown position, and not willingly disarming yourself of your primary weapon, on that same battlefield, are both strategically sound decisions. Unless you want to tell me that attacking recklessly or throwing your weapon away on a gamble is a good idea?

So no, I have not lied or low-balled about anything. Every post I made has been in reference to what we actually see occuring on screen. And I noticed that a bunch of things you claim I said, I in fact didn't. Like me never saying Artemisia had the best Immortals with her. I even said that Xerxes probably had the very best with him, in his camp. You, on the other hand, have distorted screen feats, made assumptions about things we do not see and claimed it as fact, and totally ignored the feats of one person, purely because of their gender. Under normal circumstances, a woman would have had a tough time on the battlefield, amongst men. Because they generally have a strength disadvantage. But we clearly see Artemisia blocking and parrying strikes from large, muscular men. So we can see that she is much stronger than she appears, and that her strength is in the same class as the men she fought.

So I have based every single thing I have posted on the actual combat feats (the things that matter in a fight) of the various parties I references.

But anyway, I am tired of going around in circles. I am not going to convince you of my point. You most definitely are not going to convince me of yours. So let's just agree to disagree and move on, or spend another 10 pages going in circles. So you believe Leonidas wins, and have your arguments for it. I believe Themistocles wins, and have my arguments for it. Let's just leave it at that.

Suffice to say buddy, I don't agree with a lot again and I also don't want to continue to go in circles. I thought about going back and quoting where you said the Immortals Them beat were superior to who that spartans beat. This prompted part of the entire debate we've been having the last 4 or 5 posts. Now, you're saying the ones the Spartans faced were likely superior. That is in stark contrast to what you were originally trying to portray. Same thing goes for forgetting that the greeks Them's Immortals "ran through" were inferior to the spartans. Which prompted another faze of... just because your fighting somebody superior doesn't mean they will make you look better or worse (which I'll get to in a moment). Let's not also forget that YOU brought up immortals killing spartans and said when Spartans were outnumbered they were killed. Which was disingenuous as I pointed out because they were fighting out of formation and killing immortals one vs. multiple foes. Just because a few died doesn't mean much when they were crushed and many more Spartans lived as opposed to being killed. I could go on, but as you say what's the point. I just wanted you to know that despite my sarcasm and comment I enjoyed the convo and the debate. I didn't know you before but I actually think you're a cool guy

KuRuPT Thanosi

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
No, Randy Couture is not my idol. I don't even personally like him. And again, you misread my posts. I said that they don't actually become slower or less skilled. I specifically said that the calibre of their opponents will affect the fight as a whole. Them appearing slower or less skilled to some people, because they have a better opponent, was not what I said at all. So again it is you who is getting angry and sarcastic because of something you misread.

Here is an example. Say we have multiple guys working on bags. All their opponents are stationary and non-reponsive. Now if you focus purely on them, you can easily notice differences. One guy might have better footwork. One might have a better guard position. One might have better punching or kicking technique. And what they are fighting does not matter, because you can directly see the differences between them by focusing purely on the individual in question.

Or watch an amateur league MMA bout, and then watch a UFC bout. I have seen guys dominate the amateur leagues and look far more impressive than their opponents. But when I watch a professional match afterwards, the gap in skill level is still glaringly obvious, even if the guy I am focusing on is losing. Like I mentioned above, you can visibly see when someone has better punching technique, or has better footwork, or executed their kicks or take downs better, without focusing on how their opponent responds.

Or let's try it another way. If I run 100m against a bunch of really unfit guys and trounce them, but Usain Bolt wins a close race, do I look faster and more impressive than him? Of course not. Because if you focus purely on both of us, without focusing on the race as a whole, you can see that he is visibly moving faster, and has better and smoother running technique than I do. And the same can be done with fights, if you focus on the actual individuals, instead of their opponent, or the fight as a whole. Well, at least I can. If you cannot, then that's on you. But I think that if you actually stopped to focus specifically on the individual fighters, you will actually see what I am talking about.

So here's a challenge. Take 2 fights of one of your favourite fighters. One where they win and one where they lose. Now watch the fights, and ignore the context of them winning or losing. Focus purely on how they move, how they throw their punches, kicks, take downs etc. If you do it that way, I am willing to be that you will actually notice that they do not appear faster/slower, more/less skilled in their separate fights. You will just notice that their opponent's technique and speed is better or worse than theirs is. That's how I view and analyse fights. I break them down into parts when I watch them, to get a better overall opinion on how good someone actually is. Not just how good they might look, depending on who they are fighting.

This whole thing is one big missing the point buddy and I'll explain why. I've NEVER claimed that you can't see skill or certain things regardless of who they are fighting. That is of course, common sense as you can see things no matter what. Never denied that. You initially claimed it didn't make a difference who they were fighting because skill always shows through. That is isn't the case and here's why with examples you can relate to. Maybe like you, I've been watching MMA since the days of Pancrase (Shamrocks, Funaki, Bas etc etc) I liked Pride wat more than UFC FYI. Point is, I was watching MMA well before it was even popular because of my boxing experience and training. Now...

Take a look at Anderson Silva vs. Forest and vs. Chael... and you'll get my point... When you fight somebody more skilled, or somebody that nullifies a portion of your game you won't look as good because you're not able to show as much. Chael neutralized Silva's game and you couldn't see the many great things he's able to do in the ring. If you had never seen another Silva fight you might not have the slightest clue how good he was in striking. That is what a skilled opponent can do. Just like how I mentioned you may not know Couture was a great wrestler if you watched him fight Randleman as he was thoroughly dominated in that area... yet we all know he's a great wrestler. Being that you have MMA experience this should be very easy for you to see and know first hand. Nobody is saying certain traits won't show through no matter who you're fighting, but they show much much better when fighting inferior foes. Which is why your Bolt example is frankly kinda bad friend. That isn't a combat sport.. nobody is preventing him from running fast. This is the polar opposite of a combat situation where you can take away your opponents strengths.

For example, you could be great and Judo throws and ground submission. Would anybody see that if they fought a good wrestler who also good striking and could thus keep it on their feet? No you wouldn't. You would have no clue somebody was good at those thing because their foes skill level was better or their game plan nullified your strengths. You routinely see this yourself, which is why I'm wondering you're being so obtuse about this friend. Take a look a Penn vs Diaz.. would anybody know that Penn was one of the best submission fighters ever and was the first American to win Gold at the Mundials? No because it never went to the ground. Point is, the superior immortals didn't look as good because they were fighting superior greeks in the spartans compared to who Them's immortals fought. Who you fight can make all the difference in the world with how you look. Even in boxing, as I gave you examples.. Look at Whitaker against Ramirez or Haugen or most of his Light Weight fights... than look at him against Mcgirt who was able to take away angles from whitaker... used movement and counter punching to make him look not as dominate. Just how it goes bro.