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Round 1: Unamped Malak

Round 2: SF amp

All out

Darth Malak on the Star Forge can pull through probably. (inb4 Neph says Darth Malak sucks, yet every other source says otherwise.)

Barsen'thor.

Not sure about round 2, but Barsen'thor definitely takes round 1.

Originally posted by Nalaniel
Not sure about round 2, but Barsen'thor definitely takes round 1.



Exactly my thoughts.

The Barsen'thor wins both rounds. Malak doesn't suck, no. But 'Thor is in the top 5 most powerful Jedi to ever live in my estimation, with some of the best TK and combat feats of anyone. She's simply more powerful, more skilled and a better fighter than Malak is. Even with the SF amp he can't take her. This is the guy who lost to a tired Kotor Revan multiple times. I think the Barsen'thor can take him once.

Originally posted by Sinious


Exactly my thoughts.

I'm in your head.

Originally posted by Nephthys
This is the guy who lost to a tired Kotor Revan multiple times. I think the Barsen'thor can take him once.
You threw in "Kotor" as if that makes it lesser, which I don't understand. Drew even stated that, "on some days, the younger, pre-rebirth Revan might be stronger (then Revan from TOR). Revan might have been tired, yes, but most fights in Star Wars aren't perfectly balanced situations. In response to "multiple times", for a full Lightside path, Revan could have used the Force to free the Jedi captives (similar to a Wall of Light technique), something that the KotORPG states injured Darth Malak when he went and drained it (makes a lot of sense really, a Sith Lord draining an area encased in the lightside will obviously damage a darksider). Everything was relative.
Barsen'thor might win more times then Darth Malak, given that she was able to overcome the First Son, but like against Revan, it will be "brutal" for both of them.

I see no reason why Barsen takes sabers in any round

You never played KotOR or TOR.
I see no reason why you even entered this topic.

If Malak can heal, he might take round 2, and I'm guessing he can.

I'm fairly certain Malak with the SF amp could take the Barsen'thor down, though with great difficulty. and the Barsen'thor would obviously take Malak unamped.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
You threw in "Kotor" as if that makes it lesser, which I don't understand. Drew even stated that, "on some days, the younger, pre-rebirth Revan might be stronger (then Revan from TOR). Revan might have been tired, yes, but most fights in Star Wars aren't perfectly balanced situations. In response to "multiple times", for a full Lightside path, Revan could have used the Force to free the Jedi captives (similar to a Wall of Light technique), something that the KotORPG states injured Darth Malak when he went and drained it (makes a lot of sense really, a Sith Lord draining an area encased in the lightside will obviously damage a darksider). Everything was relative.
Barsen'thor might win more times then Darth Malak, given that she was able to overcome the First Son, but like against Revan, it will be "brutal" for both of them.

Kotor Revan lacks Darth Revan's memories and skills. Reborn Revan eclipses his amnesiac self in force and probably lightsaber mastery. And he's likely more powerful too.

You stating Revan might not have actually beaten Malak multiple times straight up only makes Kotor Revan look worse, so nice job?

Act 1 Barsen'thor beats Malak, let alone Act 3. Beating Vivicar proves that she can take SF Malak in my eyes.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
You never played KotOR or TOR.
I see no reason why you even entered this topic.

Because he's the one that made it?

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Because he's the one that made it?
I know; I don't want him even in his own topics.

So your opinion is > the maker of Revan now? Ah, interesting.
Wrong. KotOR Revan has majority of Darth Revan's memories by the end of the game (Darth Malak, Rakata Prime, and Bastila Shan helped make such happen).
What he doesn't have are the memories of him during the Mandalorian Wars and his encounter with Lord Vitiate.

I just lol'ed. It is confirmed in canon Kotor Revan beat Malak three times. I explained this a million times to you, how have you still not processed such?
The other drain pods are up for grabs. Going strictly light-side, he frees all the remaining pods, and Darth Malak would have *probably* been injured at least once by such.
Everything I am telling you now, I already have told you before. I don't know if it's because you just ignore Darth Malak's feats or have the inability to process memories correctly, though.

Here you go.

That being said, there's a statement saying that Revan in "Revan" was far more powerful than he was as early Darth Revan.

He wasn't Darth Revan yet when he confronted Vitiate the first time.

Malak takes sabers in both rounds and SF amp Malak takes Force.

Malak is evidently a lot more powerful than people give him credit for.

Gooooooood.

I always thought Malak was one of the most under-rated Sith, almost exactly like Dooku as a matter of fact.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
So your opinion is > the maker of Revan now? Ah, interesting.
Wrong. KotOR Revan has majority of Darth Revan's memories by the end of the game (Darth Malak, Rakata Prime, and Bastila Shan helped make such happen).
What he doesn't have are the memories of him during the Mandalorian Wars and his encounter with Lord Vitiate.

His opinion in personal correspondences carries no more official weight than mine does. Revan as of the novel is superior by way of feats, accolades and showings. Don't try to act as if Malak is some Vader-esque titan just because he gave Kotor Revan a fight. In terms of actual evidence Malak still has little real feats that put him in the Barsen'thor's ballpark. She eclipses him.

For someone who worships Kotor so much it seems I need to continually remind you of it's content:

1. "I'm not Revan anymore. I don't even remember those days."
2. "How can I reclaim my identity if I can't even remember it."

"Your mind was too badly damaged to ever fully restore your memories, Revan. But your power, your strength of will, the essence of what makes you who and what you: these things still remain!"

Revan remembered little more than flashes of his old life. And while he did later regain his memories, he hadn't done so by the time of his fight with Malak.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I just lol'ed. It is confirmed in canon Kotor Revan beat Malak three times. I explained this a million times to you, how have you still not processed such?
The other drain pods are up for grabs. Going strictly light-side, he frees all the remaining pods, and Darth Malak would have *probably* been injured at least once by such.
Everything I am telling you now, I already have told you before. I don't know if it's because you just ignore Darth Malak's feats or have the inability to process memories correctly, though.

Because it hasn't been confirmed. All that's been confirmed is that Revan beat Malak 3 times at the minimum. But you continue to act as if that's some absolute number when it has never been established to be that.

Likewise it isn't confirmed that Revan rigged the pods to weaken Malak. That was never an option in the game. That it was in the tabletop version doesn't mean it was something Revan actually did. Revan never knew the Wall of Light technique.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Here you go.

Nice job ignoring my point. Explain why defeating an ancient Sith Lord who was drawing on the power of hundreds of Jedi Masters, while wounded and after fighting through his capital ship is not a feat that is easily comparable to Revan beating SF Malak. Because I can't see how it isn't.

Malak's best TK feats are overpowering two Jedi and tossing a guy a few dozen meters. The Barsen'thor vastly outstrips him in TK with her feats, not to mention her defensive feats. The best accolades about Malak's combat strength is that some random people thought that maybe he was as much a factor in the Mando Wars as Revan's strategies were (despite the Mandalorians themselves disagreeing). The Barsen'thor was literally worshiped for her combat prowess, called the embodiment of true skill and considered to have remarkable combat prowess by Satele Shan, all of this as a padawan. She beat a guy powerful enough to rip massive chunks out of a cave ceiling, who was also the best fighter of the settlers and had been taught by Rajiviri himself, as a padawan. Almost literally right after becoming a Jedi Knight she defeated her own master, and then went on to defeat some of the best masters in the order despite getting weaker every time. She beat Vivicar at her weakest and she then beat the First Son, two absolute powerhouses. The only people of note that Malak has beaten were Bastila and amnesiac Revan.

So how exactly is Malak suppose to win here? He's outclassed in terms of the Force and in overall combat prowess. Lightsabers? She can just block the attack with the Force and blow him across the room.

I'm not saying it would be easy........ But I'm not saying it would be difficult either.

That should be "while weakened and after blah".

I didn't plan on getting in a large-scale debate here, hence my small responses. Knowing your laziness, I expected the same. I am not pleased. But of course, I will respond.

No need to get more extensive than my own response. Don't try replying to every line or anything. Be concise.

You know I won't spam a continuous paragraph of feats like you without having all sources and quotes for every single feat. It will inevitably be longer then your response.
I do request you though to continue to narrow the debate down (be concise), so it doesn't form into another Zannah vs Revan that spanned several months (and still ongoing).

You know where my Respect Thread is. All feats and quotes are in there, no need to source them. The quote from Kotor is from the confrontation with Bastila on Lehon when she tries converting you.

I know where the quote is. I play KotOR about every month. I'm playing TOR atm though, I'll respond later today.

I will destroy you.

You aren't on my sever, bae.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
You aren't on my sever, bae.

I am.

(I took half my gear of and still smashed Skillz, all of it off and still beat Ant)

Pwned.

And I meant I would destroy you in this thread. 'Thor needs some more respect.

Laem. Your character's jugs were distracting.

You couldn't even beat me in a 14 page Zannah debate where I had an awful start. You think you can win now? http://r19.imgfast.net/users/1916/39/10/06/smiles/3691928536.gif

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Laem. Your character's jugs were distracting.

You couldn't even beat me in a 14 page Zannah debate where I had an awful start. You think you can win now? http://r19.imgfast.net/users/1916/39/10/06/smiles/3691928536.gif

I did beat you bro. You just took it back after you'd realised you conceded the most important parts.

However, Revan vs Zannah is quite arguable and Revan is tailor made to do well against Zannah since her big thing is mental attacks. The Barsen'thor vs Malak is not arguable. Even you admit she'd likely beat him. All we're determining here is how badly she'd whoop him.

I conceded the parts on like page 2, then I returned. And then from page 2 on-wards, your defense was that I conceded yet I formed new arguments you could not counter.

You formed frankly idiotic theories about Rain performing prep and a complex shielding technique in her sleep and then tried to lowball all her feats by suggesting she was amped for them or prepped when there was never an indication of either.

You couldn't counter the argument. You simply said it sucked.
Your argument was Zannah can hide behind a Force bubble the entire fight.

It did suck. It was utterly insane and absurd and you didn't have a shred of proof for it. There was no need to disprove it, you might as well ask me to disprove that a leprechaun rubbed his ears together and did all of Zannah's feats for her with magic farts.

No, my argument was that she could use a Force bubble to block his attacks and beat him with her own.

It was completely reasonable, and was supported by others doing similar. Yeah, your's pretty stupid though, bae. Though arguing over whose argument was better is rather laem and a waist of time.
Maybe we can start up the debate again eventually. Up to you if you want to continue where we left off or start fresh.

Though, I don't see the point in doing a Darth Malak vs Barsenthor debate.
Majority of my argument will be from Drew, and you just ignore what he says anyway.
If you will consider and take his word for account, then yeah, I might be interested in such a debate.

I guess that's true. I'm not gonna take his word unless you have a good reason to so I guess maybe you shouldn't bother.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
It was completely reasonable, and was supported by others doing similar. Yeah, your's pretty stupid though, bae. Though arguing over whose argument was better is rather laem and a waist* of time.
Maybe we can start up the debate again eventually. Up to you if you want to continue where we left off or start fresh.

*Waste.

It wasn't reasonable. Preparation requires conscious thought and planning. The idea that Zannah sensed the storm in her sleep, prepared for it without waking up by building her power and then forming a barrier while still asleep and not waking up while in the middle of a firestorm is pants-shittingly retarded. You never even established that it was possible to use the Force in your sleep, let alone that you can prep. It was a sad, desperate attempt to undermine Zannah and save Revan and yes, it was the worse argument I've ever seen you make.

Eventually.

Because perhaps he was the creator of the Revan novel, the head writer of KotOR, and a writer of TOR?


When is eventually?

Yeah but it's still only his opinion. And Drew is a moron, so like who cares about his opinion. Unless it's in an official capacity it's meh.

I dunno. You said you'd need time because of school or something.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Because perhaps he was the creator of the Revan novel, the head writer of KotOR, and a writer of TOR?


When is eventually?

Nothing he says in emails is canon. If he tried to put Vitiate above Sidious in a novel he'd be smacked down and told to go **** himself faster than you could scream a Vader style "noooooooooooooooooo"

But he can say what he wants in an email because no one is there to reign in the stupidity.

@Neph: He has more knowledge on Revan then any other person on Earth though. The only ones who come close are Chris Avellone and me http://r19.imgfast.net/users/1916/39/10/06/smiles/3691928536.gif.

Meh. I can reply on weekends, and sometimes during the week. I guess we can start it up, but you can't expect me to reply instantly like I did before. Patience is key.

Originally posted by Selenial
Nothing he says in emails is canon. If he tried to put Vitiate above Sidious in a novel he'd be smacked down and told to go **** himself faster than you could scream a Vader style "noooooooooooooooooo"

But he can say what he wants in an email because no one is there to reign in the stupidity.

Exactly. Now help me tell Ant that is sleep-prep-bubble theory was really stupid.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Exactly. Now help me tell Ant that is sleep-prep-bubble theory was really stupid.
She would tell me it's stupid if she didn't even know anything about it. You can't expect an angry female to not call it stupid.

das sexist

is true tho

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
@Neph: He has more knowledge on Revan then any other person on Earth though. The only ones who come close are Chris Avellone and me http://r19.imgfast.net/users/1916/39/10/06/smiles/3691928536.gif.

Meh. I can reply on weekends, and sometimes during the week. I guess we can start it up, but you can't expect me to reply instantly like I did before. Patience is key.

Don't care. He also implied Vitiate was the most powerful dude ever. Do you care about his opinion there? As Sel said, what he says in emails are lame buttfarts that no-one should care about.

Not right now. I'm not in the mood for that other than to poke you over how dumb your theory was. Eventually is eventually. I did raise my eyebrow over you saying you wouldn't even put her in the top 20 Sith though. Das dumb.

Gewd. Vitiate wank indirectly wanks Revan.

She tripped over a grave. What Dark Lord ****ing trips over a grave.

Revan got brain damage by falling over.

His ship got blasted with a continuous spray of turbo-lasers, and he still lived.

Lawl, no he didn't. Watch the cutscene. The bridge wasn't damaged at all. All that happened was that his ship was hit and it shook, making him fall over and bump his head.

Sidious was once judo-tossed by a pregnant Leia.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6XlW3o1RaY
BS. Go to 0:26. A huge ass explosion happened ontop of Revan.

This is supported by this girl giving her experiences on the deck:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOwF0TOv9pI&t=0m47s

That was just a flash of light. There was no damage to the ship that would allow him to be hit from turbolasers. Since, you know, Malak is firing from outside and so the lasers would need to blast through the walls to hit Revan directly. But that didn't happen.

ABC News and the woman disagrees.

ABC news can eat a dick.

But anyway, Zannah is Bane level bro.

Honestly, no she isn't. Her saber offense is no existent, her saber defense can be breached via precognition, shatterpoint, or having muscle, and she lacks proper Force feats as a Sith Lord.

Nah, you just say it can be breached by precognition because you wank Revan so hard. Shatterpoint is maybe, but everyone's defense can be breached that way so meh. She was only being overpowered by strength in RoT, when she was a mere apprentice. In DoE she had no problems with Bane's strength. And she's powerful as shit. Easily top 20.

I wank Revan "so hard" yet we put him in the same spot. He can easily predict the path of the blade and find a spot to jam his saber in.

You always say Revans precog gives him the advantage though, in basically every thread. It doesn't. Zannah can easily adjust her blades out of the path of his attack, being faster than him and only having to make miniscule adjustments. If Bane couldn't get through her defense, a much weaker swordsman like Revan won't.

Revan's precognition is one of the most defining features of his power. I don't get why you ignore it. Zannah is no Exar Kun, she is not capable of adjusting her blades when the attack happens before she knows it. Darth Bane was pressing Zannah on a deep defensive, in short time I suspect she would have broke.

I think Nephthys likes to overestimate female characters a bit.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Revan's precognition is one of the most defining features of his power. I don't get why you ignore it. Zannah is no Exar Kun, she is not capable of adjusting her blades when the attack happens before she knows it. Darth Bane was pressing Zannah on a deep defensive, in short time I suspect she would have broke.

No, it's really not though. It's brought up in one quote and mentioned later by Avellone and never said to be as decisive as you make it out to be. It's a decent skill, but ALL Jedi and Sith have precognition. Revan is simply a bit better at it in that he can predict the course of battles and wars. Which isn't that big an advantage in a duel. For all his supposed great skill at battle precognition he never foresaw himself getting pwned by the Emperor's lightning when he stupidly tried to grab it or displayed any tactical sense in his fights. It is nowhere near the OMFG BEST TECHNIQUE EVAR that you make it out to be. He will not get through her defense. He is not strong or fast enough and Zannah very much is an Exar Kun. When I said she'd adjust her blades I meant that she'd actually just you know, move the lightsaber to the side a bit. Avoid the attack, like anyone can do. But since she has the edge in speed, she definitely will. His precog will give him no advantage at all. You don't need precog to know that a spinning blade will continue spinning. And naw, Bane wasn't getting through or wearing her down.

Originally posted by Sinious
I think Nephthys likes to overestimate female characters a bit.

It's not about her being female, it's about her being one of the most powerful Sith to ever live and being treated like trash.

Do you want to continue this on this topic, or on a new one?

I'm cool for whatever. If you really think we should restart Revan vs Zannah, that's cool by me.