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The Girl Who Tripped On A Grave -versus- The Prodigal Knight. Both characters are in there respective prime.
Note: All past debates and shit about these characters have been wiped clean. Let us start fresh again, so my victory will be even more glorious.

Revan kicks her ass.

Originally posted by carthage
Revan kicks her ass.

---- ---- ----
Revan wins. He has superior feats, intelligence, and Force abilities.

Carthage's support should fill you with shame.

Anyway, obviously I'm going with Zannah. Revan has no way through her defenses with either the Force or in lightsaber combat. She'll wear him down and dispatch him or hold up long enough to get an opening to defeat him with a counter attack. Assuming they don't start slugging it out in the Force straight away. Which Zannah will win, by being more powerful than Revan.

Not sure... I'll see what arguments you have and side with the person I think has the better ones.

Until Revan gets some better feats aside from getting spanked by the Emperor, I'll go with Zannah.

Wise choices.

Originally posted by Nalaniel
Not sure... I'll see what arguments you have and side with the person I think has the better ones.

Lol, i'm with Nalaniel. I pretty sure this could go both ways. but i could be wrong. you're arguments might sway the undecided though.

Originally posted by NTJack0
Until Revan gets some better feats aside from getting spanked by the Emperor, I'll go with Zannah.

Beating an amped Malak qualifies as a good feat.

I agree much better than beating a weaker and slower Darth Bane and a featless Jedi knight like Set Harth. She can't generate offense either.

Originally posted by NTJack0
Until Revan gets some better feats aside from getting spanked by the Emperor, I'll go with Zannah.

What about Killing two terentakteks alone on Korriban -_-

Originally posted by Nalaniel
Not sure... I'll see what arguments you have and side with the person I think has the better ones.

Originally posted by carthage
I agree much better than beating a weaker and slower Darth Bane and a featless Jedi knight like Set Harth. She can't generate offense either.

Yes, she can. Multiple times she's thought about switching to offense to beat an opponent. Her strategy is to wear down an opponent while looking for opportunities to counter-attack, which she is capable of doing. In their fight, Bane was wary enough of her not to pursue when she disengaged for fear of getting hit by her counter-attack. And she did attack Bane under the Stone Prison when he was without his lightsaber.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
What about Killing two terentakteks alone on Korriban -_-

That's hardly a Zannah level feat.

Set Harth is truly a being to behold.

Set Harth who Zannah was lolstomping their entire fight.

Set Harth isn't even Bandon caliber.

Ok?

You were acting like her toying with him was impressive (despite it being her only lightsaber combat victory.)

I like Zannah and despise Revan. However, he probably wins this.

I'll go with Zannah right now...

Bump.

So, like Zannah wins right? Revan can't beat her with the Force or in a lightsaber duel. Eventually he mucks up and gets pegged by the superior combatant.

If we're taking the asteroid feat into account, his TK well outstrips Zannah's. If we're not, then his advantage there is all but negligible.

Darth Zannah lost or was losing in 3 out of the 4 lightsaber duels she participated against in the novel :
----- ----- -----
Darth Zannah vs Darth Bane (Rule of Two):

"When it was over her Master turned to face her. She waited for him to demand an explanation, but instead he let loose with a cry and flew at her. Zannah barely had time to ignite her twin blades to meet his completely unexpected attack.

She fell into a defensive posture as she so often had during their training sessions. But this was no drill, and her Master came at her with a speed and ferocity she had never faced before. Giving in to his orbalisk-fueled bloodrage, he was like a wild animal, raining savage blows down on her from all angles, the strikes coming so fast it seemed as if he wielded a dozen blades at the same time. Zannah fell into a full retreat, desperately giving ground beneath the overwhelming assault.

She ducked under a horizontal cut from his lightsaber, only to catch a heavy boot in her ribs. She rolled with the kick, narrowly avoiding the return cut of his blade. She parried a sharp descending blow, gathered her feet under her, and launched herself backward, flipping ten meters clear.

"Listen to me, Master!" she shouted now that she had put some distance between them. "If I wanted to betray you, why didn't I help them during the-oooffff!"

Bane hit her with a powerful Force throw, sending her hurtling backward. Only the barrier she had instinctively thrown up at the last second to shield herself saved her bones from being shattered by the concussive force of the impact.

She scrambled to her feet and twirled her lightsaber before her, creating what she hoped would be an impenetrable wall of defense. Instead of trying to pierce her guard, Bane leapt high in the air and came down almost right on top of her. She deftly parried his blade, redirecting it to the side as she spun away to keep his body from slamming into her. But Bane caught her on the chin with his elbow as she turned, the blow snapping her head back. Her body went limp, her weapon dropped from her nerveless fingers, and she crumpled to the ground.

For a second she saw nothing but stars. Her vision cleared to reveal the image of Darth Bane looming above her, his blade raised for the coup de grace."

Outcome: Darth Zannah's performance against Darth Bane here reveals her faults. Two times in this battle, Darth Zannah successfully losses an advantage thanks to Darth Bane's unpredictability. This demonstrates a severe lack of precognition, unable to sense a powerful Force attack until it hit her despite it being on an immense Darkside nexus (she herself is a dsarksider). The battle also showed that her lightsaber defense is not as invincible as everyone says it is. Revan will take an advantage of Darth Zannah's lack of foresight, being perhaps the greatest Battle Precognition user in galactic history.
----- ----- ------
Darth Zannah vs Sarro Xaj (Rule of Two):

"Zannah slid to the side, her spinning weapon redirecting the blade of her enemy away from her throat and harmlessly up over her shoulder. ]Its twin came in quickly from the other side at her hip, and she threw herself into a back handspring to avoid it, landing nimbly on her feet. Grimly, she realized that she'd never understood the true meaning of the term martial arts until now.

The warrior assailing her had elevated the act of combat to its purest and highest form. He moved with the fluid grace of a dancer, his monstrous blade singing the deadly song of battle. He executed his moves with a perfect elegance born of obsession. Zannah knew it left him vulnerable to other forms of attack, but he pressed her so relentlessly that she never had a chance to effectively gather her power.

Had the Jedi enjoyed the same advantages Bane's orbalisk armor provided, their encounter would have ended long ago. Bane could shrug off otherwise lethal blows, forgoing all sense of personal safety in a reckless assault of pure offense to overwhelm her defenses. In contrast, the man before her, massive though he was, would still die if her blades caught him. He had to guard against her counterattacks, his style less aggressive so he didn't leave himself vulnerable. Even though his technique was more refined than her Master's, she'd been able to withstand his assault... so far.

He came at her again, his blade changing directions so quickly in midstroke that it seemed to bend and curve. Zannah repelled the assault with a furious defensive flurry, breathing hard. Her style was meant to prolong combat, exhausting her opponents as they tried to penetrate her defenses. But each time she clashed with the olive-skinned giant, she was the one forced to expend desperate, frantic energy. Slowly, he was wearing her down.

It was more than just his talent and training. Zannah sensed some type of greater power at work: the Force flowed through him as if it was being channeled by another, giving even greater strength to her opponent.

Another exchange drove her backward; the man was cutting off the room, herding her tightly into the corner to limit her movement. He was taking away her agility, knowing she was no match for his strength. And there was nothing she could do about it. Taking another step back, she felt her heel butt up against the edge of the wall. There was nowhere left to go; the end was near.

On the far side of the room she heard Bane howl in rage, and she braced herself for a final stand she knew she couldn't survive. Her opponent spun the long double-bladed lightsaber around his own body, gathering momentum for his next attack. And then, suddenly, the power behind him-the Force being channeled through him by another-was gone. Zannah felt it disappear, snuffed out like a candle in a puff of wind.

The big man hesitated, casting a quick glance over toward the others to see what had happened. Seizing the opportunity, Zannah's fingers flickered in strange patterns as she unleashed her Sith sorcery at her foe.

His eyes went wide and he stumbled away from her, his lightsaber swinging wildly at the air around him as he was beset on all sides by imaginary demons. Flailing in half-mad terror at the invisible monsters, he ignored Zannah as she swooped in and ended his life with one long, diagonal stroke across his muscular chest."

Outcome: Sarro Xaj utterly outclassed Darth Zannah, primarily due to his immense strength. Note also how Darth Zannah needs time to gather her energies to unleash a sorcery attack, time she cannot afford in a battle with Revan. Though, pay attention to the red and blue colored section. In that particular sentence, he forced Darth Zannah to exert energy due to his unpredictability and once again, Darth Zannah's lack of precognition. She failed to anticipate the blade rapidly changing, something that nearly caused her death. Revan, being a generalist in all 7 forms of lightsaber combat, "draw on bits of everything here and there," allowing him to be highly unpredictable.
----- ----- ------
Darth Zannah vs Darth Bane (Dynasty of Evil)
Instead of me posting the entire fight, however, I feel a certain passage is vital to the answer of this battle:

"Instead of a savage, relentless pressure meant to overwhelm her, he settled into a pattern of feints and quick thrusts, probing and prodding her defenses in search of a weakness as the two of them settled in for a long battle of attrition. Now, however, his technique was more advanced. Unable to simply bully his way heedlessly forward, he had developed an unpredictable, seemingly random style. Each time she thought she could anticipate where the next attack was coming from, he changed tactics, disrupting the rhythm of the battle and causing her to give ground. She was being driven back in a slow retreat, and she realized he was herding her toward the shuttles, hoping to pin her against the metal hull with no place to go."

Outcome: Unpredictable attacks were able to overcome Darth Zannah's defense, which is relied heavily on precognition (despite her being poor at it in the first place). Revan, by all accounts, fights in a heavily unorthodox style, rapidly changing entire lightsabers forms in the middle of combat, and drawing on all of them together in certain encounters. Notice how Darth Bane was not overcoming Darth Zannah through brute strength like everyone suggests is the only way Darth Zannah can be overcome, but by rather a simple tactic for an advanced master of the Force. For more information on Revan's mastery with a blade and unpredictable style, go here: http://www.comicvine.com/profile/darthant66/blog/revans-lightsaber-abilities-overview/97613/
----- ----- ------
It should also be note that there is a bluntly obvious difference between Revan and Darth Zannah's precognition: "When two skilled combatants engaged each other with the lightsaber, the blades moved so quickly it was impossible to think and react to each move. Bane had taught her to rely on instinct, guided by the Force and honed by thousands of hours' training in the martial forms." Revan's precognition is so much greater that he is now able to read and anticipate the others movements not through instinct, but through conscience thought. And yes, this is vital, since Darth Zannah's style relies on utlimately anticipating the others moves in order to achieve victory.

Revan wins. His style is unpredictable, his precognition is greater, and his mastery of the Force is obviously stronger.

Fwi, don't feel the need to respond right back, because then I will feel the need to respond right back.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Darth Zannah lost or was losing in 3 out of the 4 lightsaber duels she participated against in the novel :

And since two of them were when she was a half-trained apprentice, that doesn't mean really anything. If we're going down that road then I might as well start using Revan getting pwned by Malak as proof that Zannah can beat him. I won't though, because looking at a character half-way through their development doesn't establish their end state.

And I mean, if we're going here then Revan has only ever won 1 lightsaber fight and it was against an Imperial Guardsmen. Who doesn't use a lightsaber. Revan's never beaten anyone in a straight up lightsaber fight in canon. What a loser.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Outcome: Darth Zannah's performance against Darth Bane here reveals her faults. Two times in this battle, Darth Zannah successfully losses an advantage thanks to Darth Bane's unpredictability. This demonstrates a severe lack of precognition, unable to sense a powerful Force attack until it hit her despite it being on an immense Darkside nexus (she herself is a darksider). The battle also showed that her lightsaber defense is not as invincible as everyone says it is. Revan will take an advantage of Darth Zannah's lack of foresight, being perhaps the greatest Battle Precognition user in galactic history.

Again, this fight took place when Zannah was still in training. Her abilities weren't perfected so of course her lightsaber defense wasn't invincible at that point. And nothing here establishes a lack of precog. She wasn't expecting Bane to charge at her so suddenly without demanding an explanation. It wasn't unexpected because she failed to sense it, that's not how precog works its a danger sense that triggers immediately before an attack. It was unexpected because she literally just didn't expect him to attack. She didn't even have her lightsaber out and wasn't in a state of battle-readiness. And I have no idea where you're getting the idea that she didn't sense his Force Push, she blocked it didn't she? The nexus has absolutely no baring because it was locked away in Lake Nath and she isn't stated to be accessing it.

And how will he take advantage of this imaginary weakness of yours? All you're doing is making hyperbolic statements about how great Revan is and how shitty Zannah is without coming up with an actual way for him to penetrate her defense.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Outcome: Sarro Xaj utterly outclassed Darth Zannah, primarily due to his immense strength.

Which Revan does not possess.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Note also how Darth Zannah needs time to gather her energies to unleash a sorcery attack, time she cannot afford in a battle with Revan.

Why the hell not? Revan is never noted to be a dominating swordsman. He does not have the speed or the strength to press her hard enough that she can't build up her energies.

Which isn't even what the text is saying is happening by the way. It's saying that she's being pushed so hard that she can't take advantage of his force weakness and gather her strength to attack him that way. When she gets the chance she doesn't need time to build up her power, she attacks instantly in the time it takes for him to quickly glance away. Zannah's supposed need for time is a completely fabricated argument.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Though, pay attention to the red and blue colored section. In that particular sentence, he forced Darth Zannah to exert energy due to his unpredictability and once again, Darth Zannah's lack of precognition. She failed to anticipate the blade rapidly changing, something that nearly caused her death.

You completely made that up. That's not what the text says at all.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Revan, being a generalist in all 7 forms of lightsaber combat, "draw on bits of everything here and there," allowing him to be highly unpredictable.

No, not really.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Outcome: Unpredictable attacks were able to overcome Darth Zannah's defense, which is relied heavily on precognition (despite her being poor at it in the first place). Revan, by all accounts, fights in a heavily unorthodox style, rapidly changing entire lightsabers forms in the middle of combat, and drawing on all of them together in certain encounters. Notice how Darth Bane was not overcoming Darth Zannah through brute strength like everyone suggests is the only way Darth Zannah can be overcome, but by rather a simple tactic for an advanced master of the Force. For more information on Revan's mastery with a blade and unpredictable style, go here: http://www.comicvine.com/profile/darthant66/blog/revans-lightsaber-abilities-overview/97613/

Maybe you shouldn't have cut out the rest of the fight because you seem to have missed the part where she states that she's just letting Bane think he was pushing her back while she prepared to counter-attack with the Force. It's impressive that you managed to cut off your quote the sentence right before she makes that apparent though.

And you're completely wrong anyway since Bane wasn't overcoming her defense with his unpredictable attacks. She was still defending against everything, she was simply moving backwards while doing so. Was Anakin overcoming Kenobi's defense the entire 20 minute duel he spends pushing Obi-Wan back? And I'm sure I don't need to point out that Bane is a faster, stronger and more skilled swordsman than Revan is. There's nothing indicating Revan could make Zannah retreat as Bane did.

Lastly, theres nothing indicating Revan rapidly changes his lighstaber forms in the middle of combat at all. It's simply more fanwank from you. He changes from Juyo to Shii-Cho once in the Foundry fight.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
It should also be note that there is a bluntly obvious difference between Revan and Darth Zannah's precognition: "When two skilled combatants engaged each other with the lightsaber, the blades moved so quickly it was impossible to think and react to each move. Bane had taught her to rely on instinct, guided by the Force and honed by thousands of hours' training in the martial forms." Revan's precognition is so much greater that he is now able to read and anticipate the others movements not through instinct, but through conscience thought. And yes, this is vital, since Darth Zannah's style relies on utlimately anticipating the others moves in order to achieve victory.

Revan wins. His style is unpredictable, his precognition is greater, and his mastery of the Force is obviously stronger.

Or maybe Zannah and Bane are simply faster than Revan is.

And I don't recall jack shit indicating Revan consciously reacts to each move. Sounds like another thing you're making up.

She been training for 10 years now, she should have enough experience not to get utterly trashed in both her fights.
Even Revan, only half-way through his run and brain-damaged, does better then she does. Embarrassing dude, embarrassing.

Lol wut? This is so wrong, I'm astonished.

Mandalore the Ultimate was "no match" for his skill with a blade.
"In battle after battle, Revan had led the Jedi and Republic forces to victory. Realizing defeat was inevitable, Mandalore the Ultimate had challenge Revan to single combat, and Revan had accepted. Though the Mandalorian fought valiantly, in the end he was no match for the Jedi Order's most powerful champion."
―Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan
----- ----- -----
He "quickly" beat one of the greatest Echani generals in history, Yusanis.
"One of the most feared of Echani warriors active in the galaxy during the decades leading up to the Jedi Civil War, Yusanis was a decorated solider and one of the greatest heroes of the Mandalorian Wars. Later, when Yusanis discovered that an Echani Senator had been killed by Darth Revan, he set out to confront the Sith Lord and bring him to justice. Despite his skills, Yusanis was quickly killed by Revan."
―The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia
----- ----- -----
He beat Gorse Bendak, a famous Mandalorian who never lost in over a 100 duels.
"All hail the Mysterious Stranger , the greatest duelist to ever grace the rings of Taris!"
―Taris dueling announcer (Star Wars Knight of the Old Republic)
----- ----- -----
He slayed two large Terentatek, which normally take an entire squad of Jedi just to kill one.
"Terentateks are undoubtedly one of the most vicious of all creatures steeped in the dark side, and they are doubly dangerous because of their unnatural resistance to Force powers."
―Terentatek Codex Entry (Star Wars The Old Republic)
----- ----- -----
So yeah, Revan's combat feats well outstrip Darth Zannahs. This is not even mentioning his slaughter of both the Sith Academy on Korriban, and 100s of Dark Jedi on the Star Forge.

"At this point?" Why are you implying her style is invincible as of DoE, because that is clearly not true.

She doesn't need to draw on a nexus for it to effect her. Jedi don't draw on nexus', yet there abilities are still hampered.
The fact she didn't sense Darth Bane's attack until it hit her was pathetic, especially since her sense abilities are amplified by the lake.
In fact, I don't think she has ever put up a Force Barrier that wasn't through sheer instinct. She is clocking in at a Kenobi-level reaction time:

"Count Dooku half-turned and raised a hand. A rush of dark power lifted Obi-Wan off his feet and choked the air from his longs. He reached out for the Force to counter Dooku, but the attack had been too sudden."
--Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith Junior Novelization

The same situation that happened to Zannah also happened to Kenobi. A sudden Force attack was made, and neither had the proper reaction time to counter it until it was too late
The difference is Kenobi was able to at least try to reach out with the Force. Zannah merely lived thanks to utter instinct, despite being on a nexus.
So yeah, precognition comparable to Obi-Wan is not something to be in awe about. The guy has got toyed around by people more times then I can even count.



http://media0.giphy.com/media/vJJBNWygJucuI/giphy.gif


http://i39.servimg.com/u/f39/17/73/92/12/revan_13.png I accept your concession.


Revan was a dominating swordsman against Yusanis (and Revan has the speed necessary):

"One of the most feared of Echani warriors active in the galaxy during the decades leading up to the Jedi Civil War, Yusanis was a decorated solider and one of the greatest heroes of the Mandalorian Wars. Later, when Yusanis discovered that an Echani Senator had been killed by Darth Revan, he set out to confront the Sith Lord and bring him to justice. Despite his skills, Yusanis was quickly killed by Revan."
―The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

"Yusanis was the most famous of Echani warriors, fighting against oppression and villainy until encountering Darth Revan. Discovering that Revan had killed an Echani senator, Yusanis attempted to tell authorities but fell to the powers of the Sith Lord, despite his own impressive abilities and the cortosis weave inherent in all Echani vibroblades."
―Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic

"...if Father had been faster... if only Father had been faster..."
―The Handmaiden (Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords)
---- ---- ----
Chris Avellone also shows that Revan was a dominating opponent in the field of battle:

"There weren't many people able to face Revan across a battlefield and survive the encounter."
―Chris Avellone (KOTOR Designer)


Zannah couldn't release sorcery against Xaj until she had a moment to spare. She can't do it in the middle of battle.
Against Darth Bane it required time for her to gather her energies, she couldn't do it instantly against him either.



"Revan lashed out with his foot, delivering a side kick to the chest of the guard who had grabbed his shoulder, sending the man stumbling back...

One of the guards battling Meetra broke off and tried to cut Revan off. The Jedi gathered himself and leapt high in the air, tucking his knees in tight to somersault over his opponent. The guard reacted to the unexpected move a fraction too slowly, his electrostatic slicing through the air above his head and missing Revan by only a few centimeters.

Revan landed on the ground and wheeled around to face the other man. He trust one with the Force, the impact hitting the solider square in the chest. Instead of sending him flying, it only staggered him back half a step-this close to the Emperor they were sworn to protect, the guards were able to draw on his power to protect themselves.

Still, the slight stumble gave Revan enough time to draw his lightsaber and go on the offensive. He came in with a high, overhand chop-obvious feint meant to draw the defenses of his opponent downward, leaving his legs exposed to quick slash follow up."

The guard recognized the familiar ploy, countering it by parrying the overhand chop then quickly dropping his blade low to intercept the inevitable slash at his legs. Only Revan didn't go for his legs. Anticipating that his opponent's defenses would go low, he kept his blade up high, allowing him to end the battle with horizontal cut across the man's exposed throat."

For the first red:
http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110903233342/starwars/images/thumb/4/48/SimpleSolution-TSS.jpg/250px-SimpleSolution-TSS.jpg

For the second red:
http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120216092949/starwars/images/thumb/9/99/NimanPushingSlash2.JPG/250px-NimanPushingSlash2.JPG

For the third red:
http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20131012035404/starwars/images/thumb/3/34/Niman.jpg/250px-Niman.jpg

Drew Karpyshyn confirms later then that Revan "draw on bits of everything here and there," as demonstrated by the above feat.

Nice job keeping it concise and to the point.

Concise responses are lame. They don't accurately display Revan's greatness.

Concise responses aren't a pain to reply to though. If you wanna say something say it in a way that's not shitty and aggravating.

Concise responses are a pain for me to make and form an argument against. I like to see what your talking about, because if not I need to double-check every statement you say.
Myself using quotes and pictures to support my argument only makes it easier for both of us. I don't see what the issue is really to be honest. Sorry, bae.

They take longer to reply to and make arguments multi-post, creates a ton of tangent points that stray away from the main argument and it means I need to frequently recheck what I'm replying to and what you're replying to.

Nothing to be sorry about, its just a different way of doing things. I don't feel the need to have things sourced cuz I mostly trust people to tell the truth or simply remember what they're talking about.

Meh. Everyone has a different style of debating. KMC seems to keep it strait and to the point. SWF goes half-and-half.
I like to go that extra distance so people don't say "nu uh, u wrong" (because back on SWF that's what they would say).

Except I still went "nu uh, u wrong" since you were blatantly being misleading and making things up.

Yes, but that's because you can't read properly. They simply lacked education on SWF. There is a difference.

I can read fine, you're just extrapolating things from the material that isn't there. You'll see when I reply.

Mmm K. Your Zannah wank is comparable to LeGenD's with Vitiate. She simply cannot contend with one as great as Revan.
Don't reply today though, because I have anxiety and mental issues that demand I must reply back then before I go to sleep.

I want to go with Zannah since she was able to take on Darth Bane, who despite being weakened was still a capable Force beast. She even has her dark-side tendrils that are capable of one-shotting stronger opponents if they're not careful.

She beat Darth Bane and used the tendrils by drawing off of an immense nexus. She wouldn't have that advantage on normal grounds.

You never mentioned the arena.

And he was saying he was going with Zannah since she took Bane on. Even that makes her better than Revan. Bane would kick his ass.

The typical open area with nothing in sight besides some cows and clouds.
http://nisley.mesa.k12.co.us/students/images/HighPlainsSpringB_0446.jpg

It's tough not replying today. Theres a lot of bs in your posts.

I felt the same about your argument, no worries.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The typical open area with nothing in sight besides some cows and clouds.
http://nisley.mesa.k12.co.us/students/images/HighPlainsSpringB_0446.jpg

I see some roots.

Zannah doesn't have a good track record with roots ._.

(I, of course, am kidding Neph)

I know. I already checked every inch for roots. They were fabrications.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
She been training for 10 years now, she should have enough experience not to get utterly trashed in both her fights.
Even Revan, only half-way through his run and brain-damaged, does better then she does. Embarrassing dude, embarrassing.

Right, except one was against a berserk Darth motherfvcking Bane, one of the top 10 strongest Sith of all time and the other was against an incredibly skilled swordsman who was larger and stronger than even Bane was who was empowered by Battle Meditation. Frankly that she was able to still put up a decent fight against both (particularly Bane imo) while still half-trained is highly impressive. Revan half-way through his run would get utterly stomped by both.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Lol wut? This is so wrong, I'm astonished.

Mandalore the Ultimate was "no match" for his skill with a blade.
"In battle after battle, Revan had led the Jedi and Republic forces to victory. Realizing defeat was inevitable, Mandalore the Ultimate had challenge Revan to single combat, and Revan had accepted. Though the Mandalorian fought valiantly, in the end he was no match for the Jedi Order's most powerful champion."
―Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan
----- ----- -----
He "quickly" beat one of the greatest Echani generals in history, Yusanis.
"One of the most feared of Echani warriors active in the galaxy during the decades leading up to the Jedi Civil War, Yusanis was a decorated solider and one of the greatest heroes of the Mandalorian Wars. Later, when Yusanis discovered that an Echani Senator had been killed by Darth Revan, he set out to confront the Sith Lord and bring him to justice. Despite his skills, Yusanis was quickly killed by Revan."
―The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia
----- ----- -----
He beat Gorse Bendak, a famous Mandalorian who never lost in over a 100 duels.
"All hail the Mysterious Stranger , the greatest duelist to ever grace the rings of Taris!"
―Taris dueling announcer (Star Wars Knight of the Old Republic)
----- ----- -----
He slayed two large Terentatek, which normally take an entire squad of Jedi just to kill one.
"Terentateks are undoubtedly one of the most vicious of all creatures steeped in the dark side, and they are doubly dangerous because of their unnatural resistance to Force powers."
―Terentatek Codex Entry (Star Wars The Old Republic)
----- ----- -----
So yeah, Revan's combat feats well outstrip Darth Zannahs. This is not even mentioning his slaughter of both the Sith Academy on Korriban, and 100s of Dark Jedi on the Star Forge.

37OWL7AzvHo

Did you miss the part where I said "lightsaber fight"? None of what you just said has been confirmed to have been done with Revan's lightsaber skill.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
"At this point?" Why are you implying her style is invincible as of DoE, because that is clearly not true.

Of course. But as of DoE I do consider her defense to be pretty close. Considering she could defend against Bane, who I rate extremely highly as a swordsman, with only being slowly pushed back I don't think there are many who can penetrate her defense.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
She doesn't need to draw on a nexus for it to effect her. Jedi don't draw on nexus', yet there abilities are still hampered.

Except darkside on the planet was sealed away. In DoE Zannah specifically says it's been "buried for centuries".

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The fact she didn't sense Darth Bane's attack until it hit her was pathetic, especially since her sense abilities are amplified by the lake.

It's not said that she didn't sense the attack. That she reacted by instinct doesn't imply that. That's typically how a Jedi's danger sense is depicted as, something that triggers the sense and is instinctively reacted to.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
In fact, I don't think she has ever put up a Force Barrier that wasn't through sheer instinct. She is clocking in at a Kenobi-level reaction time:

"Count Dooku half-turned and raised a hand. A rush of dark power lifted Obi-Wan off his feet and choked the air from his longs. He reached out for the Force to counter Dooku, but the attack had been too sudden."
--Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith Junior Novelization

The same situation that happened to Zannah also happened to Kenobi. A sudden Force attack was made, and neither had the proper reaction time to counter it until it was too late
The difference is Kenobi was able to at least try to reach out with the Force. Zannah merely lived thanks to utter instinct, despite being on a nexus.
So yeah, precognition comparable to Obi-Wan is not something to be in awe about. The guy has got toyed around by people more times then I can even count.

Lol, you say that as if Kenobi didn't have superior speed and reaction feats to Revan. Since he, you know, actually has some!

And your comparison is pathetic. Obi-Wan was lifted off his feet for something like a full second and held, of course he could react to that. Zannah was hit by a sudden Force Push in the middle of talking. One is an extended grab and the other is a sudden strike. And unlike Obi-Wan, Zannah actually did react to the attack before being hit with it and blocked it partially. If Obi-Wan truly only reacted after being hit then Zannahs feat is superior.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Revan was a dominating swordsman against Yusanis (and Revan has the speed necessary):

"One of the most feared of Echani warriors active in the galaxy during the decades leading up to the Jedi Civil War, Yusanis was a decorated solider and one of the greatest heroes of the Mandalorian Wars. Later, when Yusanis discovered that an Echani Senator had been killed by Darth Revan, he set out to confront the Sith Lord and bring him to justice. Despite his skills, Yusanis was quickly killed by Revan."
―The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

"Yusanis was the most famous of Echani warriors, fighting against oppression and villainy until encountering Darth Revan. Discovering that Revan had killed an Echani senator, Yusanis attempted to tell authorities but fell to the powers of the Sith Lord, despite his own impressive abilities and the cortosis weave inherent in all Echani vibroblades."
―Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic

"...if Father had been faster... if only Father had been faster..."
―The Handmaiden (Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords)
---- ---- ----
Chris Avellone also shows that Revan was a dominating opponent in the field of battle:

"There weren't many people able to face Revan across a battlefield and survive the encounter."
―Chris Avellone (KOTOR Designer)

Nope. Nothing in here was canonically done with his lightsaber. A simple interpretation for Brianna's words is "If only Father had been faster.... he wouldn't have gotten his face melted off by lightning." And Avellone could easily mean that few could face him because of his Force powers. As I recall, he did say that's what Revan specialised in.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Zannah couldn't release sorcery against Xaj until she had a moment to spare. She can't do it in the middle of battle.
Against Darth Bane it required time for her to gather her energies, she couldn't do it instantly against him either.

Well obviously she can't do it while wielding her 2 meter long lightsaber in both hands, but as seen in her fights with Bane, she is easily able to disengage and put distance between her and her opponent rather easily. She couldn't do that against Sarro though since she'd backed into a corner to prevent herself from being flanked.

And no, Zannah didn't need to do jack shit. She says she'd have preferred to do that to annhilate Bane with irresistable power and she was certainly planning on doing it, but she had to rush things after Bane had stomped her. She used her spells against Set Harth just fine without any preperation and states that she can perform such attacks at a thought.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Snip

http://www.midwestsportsfans.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/mj-laughing.gif

So because Revan... jumped he's using Ataru? I guess Bane was as well when he jumped at Zannah then. Obviously you can't jump when using a different form, that's just cheating. Aaand because Revan kicks clearly he's using... whatever that is? Since kicking is specific to a single form and no other form lets you kick no really. Because he's using a Force Push, well obviously that must be Niman. And clearly attacking from below CAN ONLY BE, erm, that form. Wow, you've convinced me. So unpredictable. His ability to jump, kick, use a Force push and swing his lightsaber upwards truly will push Zannah's defense well beyond it's breaking point. My eyes have been opened. Thank you.

This is reaching even for you.

I love your half-ass responses and double-standards that don't even cover my argument. I'll respond soon.

They're not half-assed, they're short and to the point. Learn from me my child. And I feel I did a good point covering your argument by pointing out that everything you're saying is wrong and has no merit.

Your double-standards are so obvious though. In response, I can probably link a response from you saying the opposite for everything you said above. Especially confirming Vitiate.

I've only ever claimed that Vitiate has good/decent speed and can respond fast enough not to get blitzed. He's not on Bane or Zannah's level and neither is Revan.

And Vitiate's best "feat" occurs 300 years after his fight with Revan.

Fwi I haven't conceded to this, I been extremely busy with new school work. Tomorrow I should *hopefully* be able to reply.

Ok. Suuuuure.

Most of your responses were an embarrassment to every member here.
I have to read I Am Malala, once I am done, I will be able to reply.

Funny, since your previous response was awful. Stop wasting our time by bringing up blatant untruths and pointless, irrelevant bullshit.

I see a touched a nerve there, didn't I? Good. Everything I said in the above response is true, and I have been saying now since the creation of my Revan Respect Thread.
Many of my statements however are supported by Drew Karsphyn, someone who you despise because you love to ignore various aspects of Star Wars debating, like nexus'.

"A touched a nerve?" Maybe you should spend the weekend studying, schoolboy. It'll be a better use of your time than publicly humiliating yourself with your flaccid reply.

For being someone who has graduated college, I would expect near-perfect grammar. In nearly every-other page you have debated in, I can assure you I can find mistakes within it.
Sometimes there are blatant mistakes such as simply forgetting a word or adding the word the same time, though I normally don't point it out because you are too much of a "high-class debater."
I rather be a lil' schoolboy then one who sits around his home all day eating Cheetos and playing Xcom. At least then I'm doing something with my life, rather then pressing numerous buttons on a controller.

Are you guys filing for divorce?

I didn't graduate college, I graduated university, son. Get on my level.

You mean like having the Ultimate Revan Respect thread? Wow, you're really doing big things.

I see all those college loans and taking parent's money really paid off.

Occupying my time taking five honors courses, hanging with friends, playing baseball, and writing multi-paragraph essays that boost my spelling and grammar is infinitely greater then virtually anything you have done in the past year.
You are like the kind of people you see on TV's that go "Don't do X and Y or else you turn out like Nephthys." I want to make you a website so people can help donate you some money.

University loans. Get it right. And I moved out at 18 and haven't needed my parents money since. Unlike you, I am a fully grown adult man who takes money from the government and has, like, responsibilities and shit. Yesterday, I bought my own underwear. It was amazing.

Oh woah, multi-paragraph essays??? Shit, I didn't know you were that l33t. Next you'll be telling me you don't use a crazy straw.

I could seriously do with that money tho.

Originally posted by King Joker
Are you guys filing for divorce?

No, Ant just throws a hissy fit whenever he knows Revan loses a thread. I have long accepted my place as second in his heart.

Originally posted by Nephthys
University loans. Get it right. And I moved out at 18 and haven't needed my parents money since. Unlike you, I am a fully grown adult man with like responsibilities and shit. Yesterday, I bought my own underwear. It was amazing.

Oh woah, multi-paragraph essays??? Shit, I didn't know you were that l33t. Next you'll be telling me you don't use a crazy straw.

I could seriously do with that money tho.
Ah yes, "responsibilities." I wouldn't really classify debating on a Star Wars forum, eating chips, and playing video-games are "responsibilities." You are like the stereotype American.

Pfft, I am not that amazing. Crazy straws are beyond us mortals.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No, Ant just throws a hissy fit whenever he knows Revan loses a thread. I have long accepted my place as second in his heart.
Loses a thread? To put Zannah above Maul level is a disgrace.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Ah yes, "responsibilities." I wouldn't really classify debating on a Star Wars forum, eating chips, and playing video-games are "responsibilities." You are like the stereotype American.

Pfft, I am not that amazing. Crazy straws are beyond us mortals.

Responsibilities like cleaning, cooking, washing, paying the rent and being totally interdependent and awesome. Who cooks your meals, huh? Does your laundry? Pays for your housing? Nice one putting me down for accepting mommy's money when you're still just leeching off your parents like a big, fat..... vampire.

Putting you down? You were the one who started the entire argument over personal life.
Microwaving hotpockets and throwing your clothes in the wash isn't really that special though. I do that on the norm.

How does Revan lose in all honesty? Zannah hasnt beaten anyone on Malaks tier, her victory over Bane was entirely circumstantial, her mind tricks wont affect Revan, she isnt as skilled, and her tendrils are only useful on a nexus. How sies she honestly even compare in terms of feats? Revan is multiple tiers above her

Your opinion that Zannah loses is the best endorsement for her victory she's gotten all thread (other than my opinion obvs). Thanks carthage!

You havent established any basis for her achieving a victory. Ant proved that she has been on the losing end of every lightsaber duel she's ever been on Page 2. As a force user none of her offensive abilities can even penetrate his shield, and if she struggled to defeat a featless loser like Xaj, lost the saber duel with DOE Bane, there is no basis for her beating Revan in sabers. Her only victory is against a half trained Jedi knight lol

Whereas Revan hasn't ever won a lightsaber duel with anyone (Zannah at least did kick Set Harth's ass) and has next to no established information on his technique or skill with a blade. So theres even less basis for him beating her. He has absolutely no method for penetrating her defense. Revan also lacks the ability to harm Zannah with his Force powers, whilst Zannah has a good chance with her sorcery and other abilities.

Every statement you said there was wrong actually. Like literally, every statement.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Whereas Revan hasn't ever won a lightsaber duel with anyone (Zannah at least did kick Set Harth's ass)

Let's see, off the top of my head, Revan has defeated:

Darth Malak
Darth Bandon
Bastila Shan
Juhani
Dozens of Dark Jedi and Sith grunts

Originally posted by Nephthys
and has next to no established information on his technique or skill with a blade.

Except you know, Canderous Ondo calling him the greatest warrior of the age.

Originally posted by Nephthys
So theres even less basis for him beating her. He has absolutely no method for penetrating her defense.

You mean besides being incredibly skilled and unpredictable in battle (which as noted Zannah has huge trouble against).

Originally posted by Nephthys
Revan also lacks the ability to harm Zannah with his Force powers

Not really, seeing as his telekinetic abilities are far stronger

Originally posted by Nephthys
whilst Zannah has a good chance with her sorcery and other abilities.

Doubtful. Revan was able to mentally influence the Sith Emperor himself for centuries. He can shrug of Zannah's illusions like they're nothing.

Let's be real here. Revan is one of the greats. He's up there with Luke Skywalker, Yoda, the Hero of Tython etc. The best of the best.

Zannah is just out of her league.

http://r26.imgfast.net/users/2613/36/14/96/smiles/3177439056.gif

Originally posted by chilled monkey
Zannah is just out of her league.

Revan wins.

Originally posted by chilled monkey

Zannah is just out of her league.
Pretty much.
Originally posted by Nephthys
and has next to no established information on his technique or skill with a blade.
Revan defeated some of the most powerful martially skilled combatants of the era. With a lightsaber.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Your opinion that Zannah loses is the best endorsement for her victory she's gotten all thread. Thanks carthage!

Is this you discreetly admitting that you don't have any solid backing in your argument for Zannah?

Originally posted by chilled monkey
Let's see, off the top of my head, Revan has defeated:

Darth Malak
Darth Bandon
Bastila Shan
Juhani


Juhani is featless dude. Bandon has nothing of note. Bastila and Malak are his only legitimate 1v1 duels



Not at all what Neph meant, he may be "the greatest warrior of the age" but that remains open to interpretation and speculation.



Not as unpredictable as Bane, that's not me bragging that's a fact, but it also doesn't change the fact that She took down Bane, while masters of lightsaber combat fell to him.



Yeah, for as much as Revan's fans try to wank that "uber powerful" mental feat of his. they tend to forget one tiny, itty bitty detail. Oh what could it be?
Oh yeah, he Needed to draw on Meetra's power to accomplish that!!

"Meetra was allowing Revan to feed off her. Her sustenance strengthened his resolve whenever he grew weak, refreshing and restoring him so he could continue his never-ending mental war."
- Star Wars: Revan



Arguable and the same could also be said for Bane - who was beaten by Zannah.



http://media.giphy.com/media/XAVKaqRkJbMxa/giphy.gif

Sarro is featless dude. And Set Harth has done nothing of note. Bane is her only legitimate duel, and she only beat him by drawing on a nexus and because he was old and weak.



I have yet to see any accolade calling Zannah best of anything.



Bane being "unpredictable" is Zannah's characterization/opinion not a fact. It doesn't change the fact that she was losing to an old man, and that she needed a nexus in order to kill him. Revan defeated an amped Malak who is considered one of the most powerful Sith lords in the same vein as Kun, Krayt, and others- Bane also has no feats to suggest he is a master duelist.



Like Zannah needed the Tython nexus to affect Sarro, needed the Ambrian nexus to hit Bane with tendrils etc?



Bane has no dueling feats apart from beating Sirrak by virtue of his own skill. Putting him on the same tier as Revan is hilarious, he is beneath Revan as is Zannah

Originally posted by chilled monkey
Let's see, off the top of my head, Revan has defeated:

Darth Malak
Darth Bandon
Bastila Shan
Juhani
Dozens of Dark Jedi and Sith grunts

37OWL7AzvHo

Did you miss the part where I said "lightsaber fight"? None of what you just said has been confirmed to have been done with Revan's lightsaber skill.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
Except you know, Canderous Ondo calling him the greatest warrior of the age.

Canderous worshipped him for his strategies. And that statement doesn't mean anything with regards to his lightsaber skill. Stick the Barsen'thor in that era and she'd be it's greatest warrior, but not for her swordsmanship.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
You mean besides being incredibly skilled and unpredictable in battle (which as noted Zannah has huge trouble against).

Excpet he isn't incredibly unpredictable and Zannah doesn't have huge trouble against that.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
Not really, seeing as his telekinetic abilities are far stronger.

No, they're not. If Darth Bane felt he had no advantage over Zannah, neither does Revan.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
Doubtful. Revan was able to mentally influence the Sith Emperor himself for centuries. He can shrug of Zannah's illusions like they're nothing.

Let's be real here. Revan is one of the greats. He's up there with Luke Skywalker, Yoda, the Hero of Tython etc. The best of the best.

Zannah is just out of her league.

Oh, you mean when Revan was tortured for 300 years and went completely insane? Yes, surely that will let him shrug off her mental attack that targets his fears and instabilities. Revan has a strong mind but he is also incredibly unstable and had a truckload of issues for Zannah's technique to target.

And Bane and Zannah aren't?

Originally posted by Nephthys
37OWL7AzvHo

Did you miss the part where I said "lightsaber fight"? None of what you just said has been confirmed to have been done with Revan's lightsaber skill.

Except, you know, all of them, bar Malak.


No they wouldn't. Canderous also said that because of Revan's handling of Mandalore. Not to mention the countless Echani he slaughtered once returning to Republic space where is his speed really can't be denied. The fact that some of the most naturally talented warriors in the galaxy, including one of their greatest generals, couldn't keep up with Revan's speed and skill speaks volumes. His handling of Imperial guards no less.

Except he is and she does.


Bane was kicking Zannah's ass and would have destroyed her without her tendrils, which she doesn't have here.


Because Zannah has 300 hundred years and has mental abilities comparable to Vitiate's. Because Zannah has time to even use her illusions before having to throw up shields to counteract Revan's Force abilities.

Zannah getting her ass handed to her on almost every occasion without Bane's help doesn't make her great. Her most impressive victory, Bane, is hardly something that I would call making her great.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Except, you know, all of them, bar Malak.

o wow really? well if u say so

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
No they wouldn't. Canderous also said that because of Revan's handling of Mandalore. Not to mention the countless Echani he slaughtered once returning to Republic space where is his speed really can't be denied. The fact that some of the most naturally talented warriors in the galaxy, including one of their greatest generals, couldn't keep up with Revan's speed and skill speaks volumes. His handling of Imperial guards no less.

The Barsen'thor would clean house in the Kotor era. And it doesn't matter what Canderous was referring to since I know it wasn't to something that is actually provably indicative of his lightsaber skills. Beating Mandalore could have been done with the Force. Beating Echani could have been done with the Force. Theres not much that solidly establishes Revan's lightsaber ability. As Fated said, its all open to interpretation and speculation.

And also none of the people you mentioned used lightsabers. So they don't prove much about him ability in a lightsaber fight.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Except he is and she does.

It's been established that Revan's supposed unpredictability is just a load of wank that Ant pulled out of his nethers. And Zannah was only being slowly pushed back by Bane constantly changing the angles of his attacks, he wasn't actually pressuring her defense.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Bane was kicking Zannah's ass and would have destroyed her without her tendrils, which she doesn't have here.

Nah man, you're exaggerating Bane's performance. And Bane is superior to Revan anyway, as even Ant admits, so him doing well against Zannah doesn't establish that Revan would too.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Because Zannah has 300 hundred years and has mental abilities comparable to Vitiate's. Because Zannah has time to even use her illusions before having to throw up shields to counteract Revan's Force abilities.

Except Zannah isn't trying to dominate his mind like Vitiate. She's manifesting his deepest fears and vulnerabilities, which Revan has in abundance and is basically a raving genocidal lunatic. His many, many failings will make for easy prey for her attack.

Zannah is faster than Revan, she'll be able to attack him first. If she could get in the attack against Bane, she will be able to do so against Revan. And in this thread she has her lightsaber, so she can casually deal with his lightning and Bane never felt comfortable enough in his TK to even attack her with it so Revan's not getting shit done that way.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Zannah getting her ass handed to her on almost every occasion without Bane's help doesn't make her great. Her most impressive victory, Bane, is hardly something that I would call making her great.

Most of those fights were when she was an apprentice and against incredibly skilled opponents. BM Sarro would beat Revan Reborn in a lightsaber fight, let alone a 20 year old, half-trained Revan. And obviously Orbalisk Bane would demolish him.

Why is everyone barging in on my debate? Especially Fated who has no clue what the **** he is talking about.
I do appreciate Freshest and Chilled's support though. Anyway, I'll be responding soon to your response.

Maybe its because you're takin so ****ing long that others feel the need to step in for you. Just a thought man.

I thought I made it clear that it will take a week between responses. I cannot respond during Monday-Friday period normally.
I am rather shocked though the amount of interest in this thread, since Darth Zannah isn't really that important of a character.

Woah dude, not hating on you. I'm just explaining that you being such a lazy sack of shit is maybe why people think you need the help, that's all. No biggy, take your time. I'm in no hurry. excellent

Need the help? Did you even read over your responses?
It is like your knowledge on Revan is the equivalent to a 7 year old who just played through KotOR for his first time.
I haven't been lazy, I can assure you that. A shit ton of work and exams I have had to study for.

Well Revan is a non-character so he's easy to forget about.

lol (in response to this entire exchange btw, not the last post)

You pulling for Zannah, bro?

I've barely gotten past chapter 1 of the class storylines (playing all 8 at the same time will do that to you) so I'm not in the best position to judge. I haven't read Dynasty of Evil either, but if she really did legitimately defeat Bane, I'd imagine she probably takes this.

She won through drawing off of the nexus, and then unleashed Tendrils, something she can't do on normal grounds. She was getting beat prior to that.

LMAO Why would you play all of them at the same time?

Well the Revan flashpoint is soon after chapter 1 ends so good luck getting there.

Originally posted by Nephthys
o wow really? well if u say so

Because Revan is Force pummeling straight out of the academy, he's destroying the second strongest Sith in the Empire with skills he doesn't have, and he's trying to annihilate the woman he's in love with. Cause that's how life works.


Except to be called a warrior by a Mandalorian means martial might, which the Barsen'thor has established little of.

The Mandalorians do not respect the use of the Force, as established in KotOR II.

Except it was stated to be because of Revan's speed and skill, and Brianna stated that Revan fought with Echani-level precog.

Compared to Zannah's nothing, I'd have to disagree.

A lightsaber is a melee weapon last I checked, and when going up against cortosis blades and Imperial Guard staves, skill matters.


Well as long as we're just going to ignore statements made about characters fighting styles, sure. We also can just go ahead and ignore the quotes about all of the duels Zannah's been in as well. Let's go with that.


This is about you putting Zannah on Bane's level, which is something I've seen you do everywhere, not about Revan being on Bane's level.


Zannah's illusions take time to prepare off nexus. And this is about Revan's mental fortitude, not his ability to not be dominated.

Zannah's illusions aren't as unstoppable as you try to make them seem. Bane shrugged them off on nexus. I see no reason why Revan wouldn't off.

She doesn't even fight offensively. I'd also like to know why Zannah is faster than Revan, but I'm sure it'll boil down to because reasons.

She didn't win using lightsaber prowse, but okay.

Because Lightning is the only Force power Revan has at his disposal. His TK eclipses just about any none Sorcery feat Zannah has ever accomplished.


Revan, in TOR, was far from half trained in lightsaber techniques, stated to have the skills of an elite commando and outdueled plenty of Dark Jedi, and Sith masters. Many of which were veterans of the Mandalorian Wars. Outdueled Darth Malak, battled the elites of the Star Forge, and went toe-to-toe with foes that even the Dark Council is wary off and pulled asteroids beyond the scope of anything Zannah has ever contended with. Comparing Zannah performance then to any Revan anywhere is an insult.

That's hardly a point in Zannah's favor. Zannah was never, and will not ever, be comparable to Orbalisk Bane.

Well yes, I see the cirucmstances of that battle are hotly debated. I'd have to read the book myself to know where I stand on that.

Originally posted by Sinious
LMAO Why would you play all of them at the same time?

1. It creates the impression that everything is occuring in real time.

2. Each planet usually has a mystery behind the development of the politics or society of that planet, that are partially answered by the set of planetary missions, but usually fully solved by multiple class storylines for that planet. By playing them at the same time, it makes it easier to understand the entire mystery behind that planet's central storyline.

3. Apparently the different storylines intertwine in interesting ways. Again, playing them simultaneously will make it easier to appreciate how they interact.

4. Spoilers. There are times in flashpoints where major events in certain class storylines are revealed before you've had a chance to play through them (usually when you have someone in your group of a class that you haven't played, and his character makes a reference to it). As I like to play the FPs when my character is of the appropriate level, playing them simultaneously is the only way to avoid those kinds of spoilers.

5. Ultimately, doing all 8 simultaneously is less time consuming than doing all 8 one after the other, as it means you can switch between which character does the sidequests for each planet (if you do all the sidequests for every planet on a single character, you end up incredibly overlevelled). If you use all xp bonuses available in the game (item buff, guild bonus, legacy bonus), you can maintain an appropriate level by doing the side quests for 1 in every 4 planets, provided you also do some extra stuff (like FPs, PVP, space missions, maybe some heroics). If I was focusing on just one character, I'd feel obligated to do every single side quest in the correct order of planets on the first playthrough, and on subsequent playthroughs, I'd have to repeat a number of the side quests that by then I'd already done.

6. Going back and forth between the different play styles has done wonders for my multitasking skills.

7. The novelty of it.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Well the Revan flashpoint is soon after chapter 1 ends so good luck getting there.

I've actually already gone though the first Republic FP featuring Revan, it's just the others I haven't gotten to yet.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Because Revan is Force pummeling straight out of the academy, he's destroying the second strongest Sith in the Empire with skills he doesn't have, and he's trying to annihilate the woman he's in love with. Cause that's how life works.

The Barsen'thor was force pummeling straight out of the academy. It happens. Theres no source that states that Revan didn't fight and win most of his duels primarily with the Force. In fact, Avellone agreed with that assessment iirc. Also beating Bastila with the Force would be more safe than attacking her with a lightsaber.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Except to be called a warrior by a Mandalorian means martial might, which the Barsen'thor has established little of.

Nah, it just establishes strength in general. Mandalorians don't give a shit about if you use the Force or not. And anyway, that's just speculation. We don't know the context to which he was referring to.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
The Mandalorians do not respect the use of the Force, as established in KotOR II.

Canderous has no problem with it.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Except it was stated to be because of Revan's speed and skill, and Brianna stated that Revan fought with Echani-level precog.

No it wasn't and who cares about his precog.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Compared to Zannah's nothing, I'd have to disagree.

Ok, now you're just trolling me. Zannah's lightsaber style and ability is well established. Darth Bane wasn't able to get through her defense and at one point she was described as easily blocking his attacks. That's >>> anything Revan has done.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
A lightsaber is a melee weapon last I checked, and when going up against cortosis blades and Imperial Guard staves, skill matters.

Vibroswords and staves are pretty different from lightsabers. Also Revan's skill didn't matter when he fought that Guardsman.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Well as long as we're just going to ignore statements made about characters fighting styles, sure. We also can just go ahead and ignore the quotes about all of the duels Zannah's been in as well. Let's go with that.

If by statements you mean the statements Ant made about Revan's fighting style, then yeah you probably should ignore that stuff.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
This is about you putting Zannah on Bane's level, which is something I've seen you do everywhere, not about Revan being on Bane's level.

Zannah is on Bane's level. And Revan isn't.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Zannah's illusions take time to prepare off nexus. And this is about Revan's mental fortitude, not his ability to not be dominated.

Nope:

"She could make them see nightmares as reality; she could cause their deepest fears to manifest as demons of the psyche. She could, and had, rip the minds of her enemies apart with a simple thought and a gesture."

Pretty instant. And Revan's mental fortitude isn't so hot with him being crazy and everything.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Zannah's illusions aren't as unstoppable as you try to make them seem. Bane shrugged them off on nexus. I see no reason why Revan wouldn't off.

Bane had already dealt with his issues and had for decades. Revan is fresh from skinny-dipping in Vitiate's mind and batshit. He ain't resisting.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
She doesn't even fight offensively. I'd also like to know why Zannah is faster than Revan, but I'm sure it'll boil down to because reasons.

She does with her mental attacks. Zannah is faster than Revan because Bane is faster than Revan and Zannah was matching him for speed.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
She didn't win using lightsaber prowse, but okay.

I wasn't referring to that.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Because Lightning is the only Force power Revan has at his disposal. His TK eclipses just about any none Sorcery feat Zannah has ever accomplished.

I edited in my thoughts about his TK. It's not going to go anywhere.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Revan, in TOR, was far from half trained in lightsaber techniques, stated to have the skills of an elite commando and outdueled plenty of Dark Jedi, and Sith masters. Many of which were veterans of the Mandalorian Wars. Outdueled Darth Malak, battled the elites of the Star Forge, and went toe-to-toe with foes that even the Dark Council is wary off and pulled asteroids beyond the scope of anything Zannah has ever contended with. Comparing Zannah performance then to any Revan anywhere is an insult.



Way to miss the point dingus. I was pointing out that Zannah was only half-trained and 20 when she fought Sarro. If Revan had been in a similar state and faced him, he wouldn't do so great either.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
That's hardly a point in Zannah's favor. Zannah was never, and will not ever, be comparable to Orbalisk Bane.

That remains to be seen. And you miss the point again. Apprentice Zannah was demolished by Orb Bane, and you're trying to use that against her. Despite the fact that Revan would be similarly demolished.

Disclaimer: I will not be able to respond to your response until 9/13/2014 (Saturday) or 9/14/2014 (Sunday).
------ ------ ------
It has been brought to my attention through the replies on this topic, along with other conversations with members that this topic is being watched over with great interest.
For the sake of my omniscient personality, please look at the below quote. I grow tired of Neph repeating this same thing over and over again. I hate to see him embarrassed:
Originally posted by Nephthys
Funny, since your previous response was awful. Stop wasting our time by bringing up blatant untruths and pointless, irrelevant bullshit.
Notice how I have provided evidence and sources for all of my arguments, many members here now use in their own personal debates. Rather insulting.
----- ----- -----
Numerous of your replies on one matter is the same as one on another, which is annoying. I will group all them together to save time and text space.

Losing to Darth Bane does not make Darth Zannah impressive. Darth Bane has been beat numerous times by rather fodder material, like the mercenaries.
Notice how Darth Zannah is utterly destroyed by Orbalisk Bane while Raskta Lsu is capable of getting dozens of hits on the Sith Lord. Rather embarrassing.
The other being Darth Zannah lost to is a featless Jedi who only has some hype due to the Battle Meditation amp. Zannah only survived due to a break in the assault.
These two beings demonstrate Darth Zannah's defense is not invincible, and can be breached by even Jedi who I wouldn't rank above Savage Opress in all honesty.
Saying Zannah did decent against Bane is a total understatement, for she was in "full retreat". Saying Revan would lose to a featless Jedi is also incredible even for you.

I know you have a great deal of knowledge on Revan. I question sometimes if you ignore your own-self for Darth Zannah praise.
---- ---- ----
If you know anything about the Mandalorian culture, it is clear when Mandalore challenged Revan to a final duel, it would be a contest of skill. It even said "single combat" as the description.
Mandalorians despise the use of the Force, and for Revan to use it against Mandalore would be a heavy disgrace to his honor and awe. Obviously he did not, for so many Mandalorians worshipped Revan.
--- --- ---
It is stated Revan dueled Yusanis and beat him through his superior speed and skill. They even made mentions of "his own impressive abilities and the cortosis weave inherent in all Echani vibroblades."
--- --- ---
Revan did not even know he had the Force yet when he dueled Gorse Bendak in the Taris Arena. This was shortly after Revan awakened from his mind-wipe. He didn't even know he was the former Sith Lord yet.
--- --- ---
Revan fought the same two Terentatek in Naga Sadow's tomb on Korriban that appeared in "Star Wars Tales 23".
Those Terenatek were even more immune to the Force then normal Terentatek, completely invulnerable against Telepathic assaults.
--- --- ---
So yes, he beat every one I listed in pure contest of skill with a blade.


I could care less about your Darth Bane wank. He failed to defend himself against a few mercenaries. A defense cannot be invincible if it can be penetrated.
Out of all of Darth Zannah's official duels (she has had four), she was losing in everyone one besides against a wannabee Dark Jedi who isn't more powerful then Ahsoka Tano.

Being burred for so long means it would have eventually accumulated a strong taint in the area around it. That is how Force nexus' work.
And don't try to educate me on how they work, being the person who says Palpatine and Darth Nihilus' mask isn't one.
----- ----- -----
Below is the argument revolving around Darth Zannah's lack of foresight, a factor vital to Revan's easy victory over her:

What? Doing something by instinct means you do it without knowledge on it; a natural ability.
She was unable to foresee Darth Bane's attack until her own natural reactions had to take over and save herself from certain death.
This is not the only time she was nearly killed due to lack of foresight. I have made a list of all the times:
1.) Darth Bane was able to attack her with sudden Force attacks on numerous occasions, even when she was fully trained, resulting in her losing all advantages.
2.) Darth Zannah was unable to predict and foresee Darth Bane attacking her after her betrayal, nearly resulting in Darth Bane killing her in one stroke.
3.) Darth Zannah was unable to anticipate Sarro Xaj's attacks, nearly resulting in her death. It was only Darth Bane's actions that saved her.
4.) Darth Zannah fell over a grave.
5.) Darth Zannah was losing blantly in the lightsaber duel portion of her final battle due to Darth Bane's unpredictability, something you conceded to below:

Darth Bane's unpredictable attacks was disrupting her defense rhythm, forcing her to go on a constant retreat back to the shuttle. Revan, like Bane, will take advantage of her lack of foresight. I cover this more later.


He tried to react the instant he was lifted though, not while held by Dooku's invisible grip. Huge difference.
----- ----- -----
Below is the arguments revolving around Revan's speed capabilities:


Either if it is Palpatine or Yoda or Luke Skywalker, no Force-user can run at blindly speeds without Force augmentation, where they both use the Force to increase their muscle speed and to slow down their perception of the world. The increased speed of the Force-user enabled them to see the world and the entities around them in slow motion, allowing them to dodge attacks easily and attack quicker with greater accuracy. The amount of boost a user would have is dependent on their own command of the Force. This is all canon, and why Force-users like Palpatine and Luke Skywalker are faster then Agen Kolar and Stormtroopers. Naturally it can be assume Revan's speed is up with Darth Malgus and Darth Vader. Darth Zannah is not on this same level. Revan has been giving much superior hype for his raw command of the Force, ranging from being said to be "like the heart of the Force" to wielding "tremendous power" to even "one of the most powerful individuals in the universe." They even said Revan was more powerful then Darth Nox's and the Emperor's Wrath's "imagination." Being merely a Banite Sith does not classify Zannah above Revan. Notice how in Drew's interviews he always says "Bane and Revan are the best", not "Bane, Revan, and Zannah are the best."


Read above. The game even made special mention of that despite Yusanis's skills and vibro-blade, he still lost. There was no mention of any Force attacks. And you can't really run from lightning.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Disclaimer: I will not be able to respond to your response until 9/13/2014 (Saturday) or 9/14/2014 (Sunday).

Well this debate escalated quickly...

Originally posted by Nephthys
The Barsen'thor was force pummeling straight out of the academy.

The Barsen'thor didn't train there for a few weeks.

Except for all the statements that claim he isn't trained well in it.

No it wouldn't. Bastila is going all out. And is being amped by the Star Forge, as well as being shown to be able to overwhelm Revan with TK. The best bet is to get in close and defend.


Except it was stated in game. They do not respect Jedi who rely primarily on the Force.

Source?

Yeah it was. I'd go into where, but since you are already ignoring it from Ant, I won't bother.

Except Bane did and was going to kill her. Without her tendrils, that would have been game, set, and match. You're acting as if Zannah was on even footing with Bane during their final duel, when clearly she wasn't.


What does this even mean? And I'm the one who's trolling? It takes skill to fight with melee weapons against the most skilled users of melee weapons. A lightsaber is still a sword and if you go toe-to-toe with a more skilled opponent, you'll lose. Revan is stated to have overpowered these people with speed and skill, and with the guards, it obviously required skill since he wasn't able to overcome them with TK. The acrobatic maneuvers deployed during the fights there were also pretty impressive to say the least.


Or the fights shown in the novel and described in KotOR II. Whichever one you prefer to ignore.


Losing over and over again doesn't put you on someone's level.


Not really.

Ant covered this pretty well, so I'm not going to get into it. It didn't work that way in any of the duels she fought with the higher ups of the novel, it won't work here.


And Sarro "dealt with" his issues as well. It takes fortitude to overcome sorcery, and Revan has it.

Except you know, she didn't. She was overwhelmed during their duel.

You want to treat Zannah as a Bane level opponent, then you have to back it up. So far you said that she's held off Bane, even when he demolished her in their final duel. That she has Bane level speed, even though she was being hard pressed the entire time. And that somehow her illusions are strong enough and fast enough to deal with Revan, even though it's supported nowhere.


Because reasons.


You said that he would defeat Revan Reborn. I don't care what point you were trying to stress.

Zannah hasn't dueled nearly enough people, but I don't really need to use Orbalisk Bane to show her inferior skills as a duelist.

It's pretty lame that you're trying to make Sarro Xaj out to be some kind of no-name chump.

"In the gunner's chair across from the pilot was Sarro Xaj, the human male who had served as Raskta's Padawan on Ruusan. A year older than Johun, Sarro had olive-brown skin and a single topknot of black hair. He was also the largest human Johun had ever encountered. Over two meters tall and 150 kilos of raw muscle, he could easily be mistaken for a hairless Wookiee rather than a man. Yet despite his mass, he was still quick enough to snatch a zess-fly out of the air. Elevated to the rank of Jedi Knight seven years before, Sarro had chosen to follow in his Master's path, focusing on mastering a massive double-bladed lightsaber measuring almost three meters in length. Johun imagined there were few beings in the galaxy who could stand up under the ferocious assault of his weapon's blue blades."

He's immediately portrayed as being one of the very best lightsaber practitioners the Jedi had to offer, as well as an absolutely monstrous being that was as notably quick as he was big and strong. You can then factor in the fact that he was receiving the benefits of battle meditation in his battle with Zannah, which was described as being a pretty substantial boost:

"It had been many years since Farfalla had fought while empowered by Worror's battle meditation. He had forgotten how much quicker and stronger the Ithorian's amazing talent made him feel. The Force flowed through him with greater power, filling him with its might."

"Johun felt his strength and energy plummet, A wave of exhaustion and fatigue overwhelmed him, the beneficial effects of the battle meditation vanishing as Worror's concentration was broken."

Then you have these numerous demonstrations of skill and ability:

"And then her enemies fell on her. It took only seconds for her to realize that the bigger man was by far the more dangerous opponent. In the time it took for the smaller man to strike at her twice with his green blade, she had batted aside half a dozen attacks from the other. There was a marked difference in the style and effectiveness of their blows, as well. The skills of the Jedi with the green lightsaber were raw and basic. When he struck, it was with either strength or speed, but not both at the same time. His blade came in either high or low, but never altered its plane during the attack. In contrast, the big man attacked her from creative and unexpected angles, the massive blue blades changing course midthrust. Each offensive was a model of lethal efficiency-quick and powerful strikes and counterstrikes that kept an opponent guessing."

I know that people like to hate on Johun Othone, but the fact is he was a trained Jedi of many years with superhuman abilities like any Jedi, and Sarro seemed to be so quick that he produced three times his output, and this coming from a man who was even larger and physically stronger than Bane.

"The olive-skinned giant reared up to his full height; Zannah realized he was even taller and more heavily muscled than Bane. The air sizzled as his long lightsaber carved an elaborate flourish around his body, then another above his head. He smiled down at her knowingly."

"Zannah slid to the side, her spinning weapon redirecting the blade of her enemy away from her throat and harmlessly up over her shoulder. Its twin came in quickly from the other side at her hip, and she threw herself into a back handspring to avoid it, landing nimbly on her feet. Grimly, she realized that she'd never understood the true meaning of the term martial arts until now."

"The warrior assailing her had elevated the act of combat to its purest and highest form. He moved with the fluid grace of a dancer, his monstrous blade singing the deadly song of battle. He executed his moves with a perfect elegance born of obsession. Zannah knew it left him vulnerable to other forms of attack, but he pressed her so relentlessly that she never had a chance to effectively gather her power."

"Even though his technique was more refined than her Master's, she'd been able to withstand his assault... so far."

This is particularly notable considering Bane was an absolute prodigy that's demonstrated probably the greatest natural grasp with a lightsaber in the mythos, who by this time had spent many years dedicated to perfecting his skills.

"He came at her again, his blade changing directions so quickly in midstroke that it seemed to bend and curve."

All the evidence we have suggests that Sarro was an extremely impressive duelist even without the BM, so I fail to see how Zannah's performance against him is some kind of low showing, especially when you consider the fact that she obviously improved afterwards (I'll let people who've read DOE argue by just how much) and she did technically fulfill her form's primary objective (at least for what appears to have been a substantial amount of time), which was to go on the defensive and survive.

@ appletonia


Thank you actually. You just saved me some time on something I'm working on.

I already know of all those details. Having some hype due to Battle Meditation but no feats besides beating Zannah doesn't put him above Obi-Wan Kenobi.

Sarro is featless aside from his battle meditation showing. Also it cannot be emphasized enough Zannah would've lost that fight had it not been for Johun.

Originally posted by carthage
Sarro is featless aside from his battle meditation showing. Also it cannot be emphasized enough Zannah would've lost that fight had it not been for Johun.
But that at least puts her on his level, tho.

The former isn't exactly true. For the first quarter or so of the fight, Sarro was unamped.

Most of the hype he got was during the amp.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I already know of all those details. Having some hype due to Battle Meditation but no feats besides beating Zannah doesn't put him above Obi-Wan Kenobi.

A lot of what I posted had nothing to do with BM, such as the demonstrations of technical ability, his reputation as an expert duelist, and his physical dominance.

What's so amazing about Obi-Wan? I'm not sure I'd even consider him an elite member of his era, when you compare him to the likes of Yoda or Mace Windu. Sarro Xaj was seemingly an elite member of a more martial Jedi Order, and was having his powers substantially boosted, and a lesser version of Zannah was still able to hold him off, if not prevent herself form being dominated.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
The former isn't exactly true. For the first quarter or so of the fight, Sarro was unamped.

Where'd you get that idea from? He was amped the entire fight.

Maybe because Worror hadn't started meditating yet?

I thought he started right away.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Maybe because Worror hadn't started meditating yet?

Still not sure where you're getting this idea from. It's stated that they were feeling the effects of the BM before their battle even started. They were being amped right from the beginning.

IIRC Zannah glanced over about a quarter into the fight to see Worror situating himself, and then she almost gets a lightsaber run through her eye.

Yeah but he began applying the BM long before that.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Losing to Darth Bane does not make Darth Zannah impressive. Darth Bane has been beat numerous times by rather fodder material, like the mercenaries.
Notice how Darth Zannah is utterly destroyed by Orbalisk Bane while Raskta Lsu is capable of getting dozens of hits on the Sith Lord. Rather embarrassing.
The other being Darth Zannah lost to is a featless Jedi who only has some hype due to the Battle Meditation amp. Zannah only survived due to a break in the assault.
These two beings demonstrate Darth Zannah's defense is not invincible, and can be breached by even Jedi who I wouldn't rank above Savage Opress in all honesty.
Saying Zannah did decent against Bane is a total understatement, for she was in "full retreat". Saying Revan would lose to a featless Jedi is also incredible even for you.

Using carthage-style Bane-lowballing is pathetic, and not a promising start for you. You know Bane was exhausted, ambushed, injured and weakened in that fight and still only lost due to getting hit by multiple flashbangs and nicked once by Cognus. Thats the only time Bane was defeated by "fodder" btw, which Cognus doesn't qualify as, so you're lying about that.

Oh gee, its almost as if Zannah was a half-trained apprentice experiencing the first real battle of her life and Raskta is a Jedi Battlemaster empowered by Battle Meditation who had slaughtered hundreds of Sith. As I've said, Zannah's performance there isn't representative of her DoE persona and bringing it up against her is the only pathetic thing here.

Appletonia already told you why calling Sarro featless is stupid. I expect more respect for his abilities from hence forth.

Both of those showings were from when she was half-trained you dolt, and against opponents who possess abilities and advantages that Revan does not. They don't establish that her DoE defense is weak or able to be penetrated by a swordsman such as Revan.

And yes, it is actually extremely impressive that Zannah managed to defend against him as well as she did. Even managing to survive an onslaught from a bloodlusted Orbalisk Bane is impressive as hell, as is having the speed and strength necessary to ward off his attacks in that state, despite being driven back. Hell, she actually had the speed to duck under one of his strikes at one point. Its very impressive. I doubt Revan could have done as well.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I know you have a great deal of knowledge on Revan. I question sometimes if you ignore your own-self for Darth Zannah praise.
---- ---- ----
If you know anything about the Mandalorian culture, it is clear when Mandalore challenged Revan to a final duel, it would be a contest of skill. It even said "single combat" as the description.
Mandalorians despise the use of the Force, and for Revan to use it against Mandalore would be a heavy disgrace to his honor and awe. Obviously he did not, for so many Mandalorians worshipped Revan.
--- --- ---
It is stated Revan dueled Yusanis and beat him through his superior speed and skill. They even made mentions of "his own impressive abilities and the cortosis weave inherent in all Echani vibroblades."
--- --- ---
Revan did not even know he had the Force yet when he dueled Gorse Bendak in the Taris Arena. This was shortly after Revan awakened from his mind-wipe. He didn't even know he was the former Sith Lord yet.
--- --- ---
Revan fought the same two Terentatek in Naga Sadow's tomb on Korriban that appeared in "Star Wars Tales 23".
Those Terenatek were even more immune to the Force then normal Terentatek, completely invulnerable against Telepathic assaults.
--- --- ---
So yes, he beat every one I listed in pure contest of skill with a blade.

Lets break it down:

Mandalore: Except that it was Revan who once said "Honor is a fools prize. Glory is of no use to the dead." He wouldn't hold it back in a fight just to please a foe he hated. Theres nothing that says you can't use the Force in single combat or a duel.

Yusanis: No, it's not said that. That's just your fanon interpretation. That they say Revan beat him in spite of those things in no way preclude the use of the Force.

Bendak: You know... you can use blasters in that fight. Bendak does. Theres nothing indicating Revan killed him with a vibrosword.

Terentateks: Giant monsters, not swordsmen.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I could care less about your Darth Bane wank. He failed to defend himself against a few mercenaries. A defense cannot be invincible if it can be penetrated.
Out of all of Darth Zannah's official duels (she has had four), she was losing in everyone one besides against a wannabee Dark Jedi who isn't more powerful then Ahsoka Tano.

As I said, it's not invincible. It's close. And you should care about my Bane wank. As a swordsman he is Revan's clear superior. That he couldn't penetrate her defense straight up proves that Revan can't.

Whereas Revan has never won a lightsaber duel ever. Excpet maybe against some fodder.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Being burred for so long means it would have eventually accumulated a strong taint in the area around it. That is how Force nexus' work.
And don't try to educate me on how they work, being the person who says Palpatine and Darth Nihilus' mask isn't one.

You're so wrong. If you knew anything about Ambria you'd know the darkside on the planet had been sealed away so it was inaccessible normally. That the darkside was specifically said to have been buried for centuries only proves it. If it was normally usable, then it wouldn't be said to be buried for centuries, genius.

----- ----- -----
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Below is the argument revolving around Darth Zannah's lack of foresight, a factor vital to Revan's easy victory over her:

That you think Revan would win easily only demonstrates how much spite you hold for Zannah.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
What? Doing something by instinct means you do it without knowledge on it; a natural ability.
She was unable to foresee Darth Bane's attack until her own natural reactions had to take over and save herself from certain death.

Yes.... which precognition is. A natural ability that guides your blade/etc through instinct. Look at what Kas'im says here:

"That's what made it such a potentially devastating move," Kas'im explained. "You're letting the Force guide your blade now. You act without thought or reason. You're driven by passion: fury, anger . . . even hate. Your saber has become an extension of the dark side."

When Jedi and Sith fight they become extensions of the Force and act through "instinct" a lot of the time.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
This is not the only time she was nearly killed due to lack of foresight. I have made a list of all the times:
1.) Darth Bane was able to attack her with sudden Force attacks on numerous occasions, even when she was fully trained, resulting in her losing all advantages.
2.) Darth Zannah was unable to predict and foresee Darth Bane attacking her after her betrayal, nearly resulting in Darth Bane killing her in one stroke.
3.) Darth Zannah was unable to anticipate Sarro Xaj's attacks, nearly resulting in her death. It was only Darth Bane's actions that saved her.
4.) Darth Zannah fell over a grave.
5.) Darth Zannah was losing blantly in the lightsaber duel portion of her final battle due to Darth Bane's unpredictability, something you conceded to below:


1) In RoT Bane was faster than her. It only makes sense that he could attack before her senses could keep up fully. And the only time in DoE I can think of is when he BLOCKS her attack with that Force Bubble, not attacks her.
2) He leaped at her suddenly. It wasn't a lack of foresight, she just didn't believe he was going to attack her. Besides, precog chimes in half a second before an attack. So maybe it did chime in, just as he was jumping at her, by which time it was pretty irrelevant since she was already aware of it.
3) Nope.
4) Theres no reason precog would warn her of that.
5) That has nothing to do with precog.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Darth Bane's unpredictable attacks was disrupting her defense rhythm, forcing her to go on a constant retreat back to the shuttle. Revan, like Bane, will take advantage of her lack of foresight. I cover this more later.

Again, this has nothing to do with precognition. Bane was simply switching his angles of attack midway through sequences and stuff and forcing Zannah to reposition her defense and retreat slightly. You can see this later on in the fight when he circles around her. This wasn't breaking her defense at all, so how exactly is Revan going to take advantage of something that doesn't actually give him any advatage?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
He tried to react the instant he was lifted though, not while held by Dooku's invisible grip. Huge difference.

That's not a difference at all. Obi-Wan only reacted after being hit with the attack. Which shows a lack of precog. I could react at that point. Zannah blocked Banes attack before it struck her on instinct, through precog.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Below is the arguments revolving around Revan's speed capabilities:

Either if it is Palpatine or Yoda or Luke Skywalker, no Force-user can run at blindly speeds without Force augmentation, where they both use the Force to increase their muscle speed and to slow down their perception of the world. The increased speed of the Force-user enabled them to see the world and the entities around them in slow motion, allowing them to dodge attacks easily and attack quicker with greater accuracy. The amount of boost a user would have is dependent on their own command of the Force. This is all canon, and why Force-users like Palpatine and Luke Skywalker are faster then Agen Kolar and Stormtroopers. Naturally it can be assumed Revan's speed is up with Darth Malgus and Darth Vader. Darth Zannah is not on this same level. Revan has been giving much superior hype for his raw command of the Force, ranging from being said to be "like the heart of the Force" to wielding "tremendous power" to even "one of the most powerful individuals in the universe." They even said Revan was more powerful then Darth Nox's and the Emperor's Wrath's "imagination." Being merely a Banite Sith does not classify Zannah above Revan. Notice how in Drew's interviews he always says "Bane and Revan are the best", not "Bane, Revan, and Zannah are the best."

This is all of load of horseshit. Revan having high Force Mastery and power doesn't mean he is as fast as Zannah. It isn't dependent on their command of the Force, it is dependent on their command of Force Speed. Zannah is faster than Vader and Malgus. Post some feats or stop wasting my time and concede.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Read above. The game even made special mention of that despite Yusanis's skills and vibro-blade, he still lost. There was no mention of any Force attacks. And you can't really run from lightning.

Yeah, as in despite his skill and vibroblade he still couldn't compete with Revan's force powers. Its just as plausible as him using his lightsaber. And if you're fast enough you can close before he can use lightning or avoid it. Cognus did. The Barsen'thor did 3 times.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I tire of your double standards. Vitiate was unable to be killed by Tython despite himself being completely disarmed and Tython's lightsaber only an inch away from him.

Yes, which proves he can deal with high speed, not that he himself is incredibly fast or that Revan is incredibly fast for having fought him.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I am extremely surprised you are arguing that Darth Zannah can do her sorcery at a moment's notice. The text says even says "she never had a chance to effectively gather her power" under she was able to "seize the opportunity" when Xaj stopped his relentless assault. She was unable to summon her sorcery against him or Bane in the middle of combat. Everyone but you agrees with what I am saying, because it is directly from the book itself.

Because Sarro wasn't even giving her the half-second she would need to gather her power with his assault. I similarly don't know why you're challenging me on this. She literally uses the attack, on paper, in the time it takes him to quickly glance away. Its a moments notice. This is supported by her explicitly saying that she can perform the attack with "a mere thought and gesture." And then performing the attack, with a thought and a gesture, on Harth as he charged her. This is unarguable and the end of the discussion.

Yes, she can't use it while in a lightsaber duel. Very few people can use the Force while engaging someone blade to blade without buying themselves some time and breathing space. But Zannah only needs a thought and gesture, like a basic force push would, to perform the attack.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Kenobi was running backwards for what seemed to be a tactical adjustment and advantage. There is no reason to continue fighting with lava pouring on you.

No. At the start of the fight Anakin pushes him back so fast he almost runs clean off the platform into the lava. And Obi-Wan retreats onto a pipe at one point. He was forced back the whole fight, rather swiftly.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
And Darth Bane was clearly overpowering Darth Zannnah for the first portion of the battle. Then he resorted to unpredictability, which also worked great:

"Zannah expected Bane to come at her aggressively, but even so she was caught off guard by the ferociousness of his attack. He opened with a series of two-handed overhead chops, using his great height to bring his blade hacking down at her from above. She easily blocked each blow, but the momentum of the crushing impact caused her to stagger back, throwing her off balance. She recovered quickly, however, spinning out of the way when he followed up with a low, looping swipe meant to hew her off at the knees. She retaliated with a quick jab with the tip of one of her blades toward Bane's face, but he ducked his head to the side and came back with a wide-arcing, single-handed slash at chest level. Zannah intercepted his blade with one of her own, angling her weapon so that the momentum of Bane's attack was redirected downward, sending the tip of his lightsaber into the dirt. This should have exposed him to a counterthrust, but he was already reacting to her move, driving his entire body forward into Zannah's before she could bring her weapon up. His weight slammed into her, knocking her back as Bane snapped his neck forward. Zannah threw her head back just in time, and the head-butt that would have smashed her face glanced off her chin instead."
--Star Wars Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil

And Revan lacks Bane's physical strength to replicate that, soooooo?

Anway, that wasn't really him overpowering her. She was staggered by his two-handed power attacks, but recovered quickly without him gaining any advantage. He attacked her physically, but again he received no advantage and she recovered quickly. Immediately after this Zannah starts up her proper defense and starts handling his attacks without issue. Like she will against Revan.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Uh what? He was able to consciously predict the attack of the Imperial Guard (that is the way of the Echani). And you can't predict a war by instinct, obviously. That just doesn't make much sense.
It has been stated that Battle Precognition is the art of "reading your opponents". You can't really read and analyze them if it's by a sudden instinct.
The point of that is "to know where an opponent is going to strike before it connects" so you can "anticipate it, and then strike against them." Battle Precognition is different then normal Precognition.

It wasn't said that he consciously predicted anything. He went into the fight already with a plan, attacking high and staying high in a double feint. You don't need to consciously think about individual attacks as you're making them to do that. A swordsman would know without having to think in the moment that his initial attack would be seen as a feint and how to react.

A war is different from a sword fight you tard. And yes you can read your opponent by instinct. You don't look at someone and consciously evaluate them, you take everything in in a glance and through their body language.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
"The next hour is spent frantically blasting, swiping, and crushing countless Dark Jedi and Sith heavy weapons and elite troopers on your way through the decks of the space station."
--Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic Prima Guide

And obviously they spent the entire time fighting, no breaks. Enemies on literally every inch of the thing and in the freaking elevators they use to traverse the Star Forge.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Re-read the quote. The blade changed directions (unpredictability) some suddenly (speed) she had to scramble to defend herself against it.

No. Changing directions doesn't indicate unpredictability. All it indicates is that his blade changed directions swiftly in the midstroke. It indicates speed, thats all.

You ignore a lot of stuff again, yawn. And as a reminder:
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Disclaimer: I will not be able to respond to your response until 9/13/2014 (Saturday) or 9/14/2014 (Sunday).
I might wait a tad additionally longer for more mined material to be released.

I know.

You're making up a bunch of stuff again. I've rarely seen this level of fanwank from a proper member.

No, I am making nothing up. Everyone else knows this besides you. You simply lack knowledge on the 7 lightsaber forms and ignore Drew.

Jumping doesn't equate to using Ataru.

Kicking doesn't equate to using (Niman?).

Using a Force Push doesn't equate to using Niman.

You're reaching.

The way you two go back and forth over this only makes me believe instead of fighting, Revan and Zannah would only fall madly in love with each other.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I know.

You're making up a bunch of stuff again. I've rarely seen this level of fanwank from a proper member.

Except yourself?

Lol

lol good one mate

u sure showed me

Originally posted by Nephthys
lol good one mate

u sure showed me





Accept the fact Bane is weak bro

I know many people are watching this debate with great interest, so I have decided to mix things up for a bit. I love three things in life more then anything else: God, Revan, and crushing egos.
Since this is not a religion forum, we are going to need to achieve the second two. Now, I normally wouldn't do this Neph, but the constant pestering and thinking you are superior has gotten extremely annoying.
So, instead of typing up responses to your crap, I feel it is more reasonable and entertaining to see yourself debate yourself (double-standards bro):
http://i39.servimg.com/u/f39/17/73/92/12/neph10.png


http://i39.servimg.com/u/f39/17/73/92/12/vs10.png

Observation: It is okay when Nephthys debates Darth Zannah outside of Dynasty of Evil and discusses her speed, but it is pathetic when I do. Interesting. Nephthys also tells me not to use Darth Zannah's other persona here:


-------------------- -------------------- -------------------- -------------------- -------------------- -------------------- --------------------

Note: Nephthys is referring to the below quote when stating this:

http://i39.servimg.com/u/f39/17/73/92/12/vs10.png
Nephthys on 9/11/2014
Lol @ that BS feat you posted though. Firstly it's from exaggerated material.
Nephthys on 9/9/2014
It's hyperbolic crap and not even good hyperbolic crap.

Nephthys on 9/9/2014
Its hilarious how many of these hyperbolic phrases PT lovers are trying to push as impressive were applied to him.

Observation: It is okay when Nephthys uses clearly hyperbolic statements from in-universe characters since they are both apart of the same Order to make a character seem more impressive, but when the same happens to Darth Malak (when his dueling is compared to Revan's intelligence) or Anakin Skywalker (Clone Wars comics or Revenge of the Sith novel) it is disgusting and laughable. Fascinating.
-------------------- -------------------- -------------------- -------------------- -------------------- -------------------- --------------------

http://i39.servimg.com/u/f39/17/73/92/12/vs10.png

Observation: So when Nephthys in a debate in favor of Revan against NewGuy01, he has the same argument I do. When he is against Revan, he is mysteriously against his own argument? Which one is it Nephthys? Can't have both.
-------------------- -------------------- -------------------- -------------------- -------------------- -------------------- --------------------

http://i39.servimg.com/u/f39/17/73/92/12/vs10.png

Observation: I don't feel a summary of the above is necessary. It is that sad.
-------------------- -------------------- -------------------- -------------------- -------------------- -------------------- --------------------

http://i39.servimg.com/u/f39/17/73/92/12/vs10.png

Observation: So when Vitiate is able to keep up and defend against the Hero of Tython's speed, it counts, but when Revan is able to keep up and defend against Vitiate's speed, it doesn't count? Mmk.
-------------------- -------------------- -------------------- -------------------- -------------------- -------------------- --------------------
Nephthys on 9/10/2014

http://i39.servimg.com/u/f39/17/73/92/12/vs10.png

Observation: Okay, I accept your concession. Tired of your bullshit.
-------------------- -------------------- -------------------- -------------------- -------------------- -------------------- --------------------
A little taste of what is to come:


http://media.giphy.com/media/abLoBQ4MPFJ5K/giphy.gif
I will finish my response soon. I know some of you were confused if I conceded or not, so I wanted to get this out here.

Oh noes, my ego!

Such a flaccid response. I expected more than this pinprick. I guess I should have lowered my expectations of your...... prick though.

Revan has this in the bag.

Originally posted by Nalaniel
So much hate for Zannah in this thread.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Oh noes, my ego!

Such a flaccid response. I expected more than this pinprick. I guess I should have lowered my expectations of your...... prick though.
Pfft, your not allowed to say your mad until my next response.

Though realize, I would never do this if you didn't do the following:
1. Message me saying how you were sorry over the debate and how you were so omniscient and sorry.
2. And then go when I enter chat that you are not sorry, and etc etc.

Like, the hell? Note how above I never even insulted you in my newest response, I was only stating facts. I grow tired of you continue saying your winning/better.

Originally posted by Stigma
Revan has this in the bag.

Revan is more skilled, more powerful, and a better duelist Zannah has nothing on him. Revan would stomp Bane as well

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Observation: It is okay when Nephthys debates Darth Zannah outside of Dynasty of Evil and discusses her speed, but it is pathetic when I do. Interesting. Nephthys also tells me not to use Darth Zannah's other persona here:



Nope, I'm telling you that her feats in RoT aren't representative of her DoE persona, since she grew much more powerful and completed her training between the two books. So they're not representative of her limitations in her DoE persona. This doesn't make me two-faced for then pointing out that her RoT feats are better than you give her credit for.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Observation: It is okay when Nephthys uses clearly hyperbolic statements from in-universe characters since they are both apart of the same Order to make a character seem more impressive, but when the same happens to Darth Malak (when his dueling is compared to Revan's intelligence) or Anakin Skywalker (Clone Wars comics or Revenge of the Sith novel) it is disgusting and laughable. Fascinating.

Only fascinating in that it seems you don't know what exaggeration and hyperbole is. Its not hyperbole, it's a rumor. And theres no good reason to really doubt Raskta killing lots of Sith considering her proven deadliness, especially when Johun says he remembers her slaughtering swathes of enemies from the war. Meanwhile Canderous directly refutes that quote about Malak and the Anakin feats actually are hyperbolic and from exaggerated material.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Observation: So when Nephthys in a debate in favor of Revan against NewGuy01, he has the same argument I do. When he is against Revan, he is mysteriously against his own argument? Which one is it Nephthys? Can't have both.



I never said that Revan beating Terentateks wasn't impressive. I said that he didn't beat them in a lightsaber duel. Which unless those were some really unique Terentateks, is true. So my point that Revan never beat anyone in a lightsaber duel (as in, actual lightsaber to lightsaber fighting) is accurate.


Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Observation: I don't feel a summary of the above is necessary. It is that sad.

Imperial Guardsmen don't use lightsabers. So Revan still hasn't even beaten anyone in a lightsaber duel in canon.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Observation: So when Vitiate is able to keep up and defend against the Hero of Tython's speed, it counts, but when Revan is able to keep up and defend against Vitiate's speed, it doesn't count? Mmk.

I'm allowed to reconsider the implications of a showing.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Observation: Okay, I accept your concession. Tired of your bullshit.

Ok, you got me here. I only said that to support you. When I hadn't actually bothered to read your thread and see what your "proof" actually was.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
A little taste of what is to come:


Zannah also > Anakin though. I still put Revan before Anakin and stand by that statement, despite your best efforts to make me lower my estimation of him.

Still see double-standards here even in this response, though I do appreciate you clearing stuff up.
Though sadly, everyone will have to wait till probably Sunday for a response again. I just wanted to get out a response because people been bugging me about it.

I was going to help you out by breaking down your points, cutting out the BS and replying to them. I can if you want.

My points? I haven't even made any arguments yet since my old old post. Everything you have and will be saying until my next response is in argument against yourself.

Well lets break down your argument for Revan winning:

He's highly unpredictable - False. There's nothing indicating unpredictability makes up a good part of his style.

He's unpredictable because he mixes all the forms - False. There's no real evidence for this. And theres no evidence that this makes him unpredictable.

Zannah is bad against unpredictability - False. No evidence this is the case. Bane wasn't breaking through her defense with his random style, and he's a much greater duelist than Revan.

Zannah has bad precog - False. Total bullshit mostly relying on her RoT persona.

Revan is faster than her because he's stronger in the Force - Lmao.

Revan can outlast her - Unlikely considering her style is all about outlasting her opponent and minimizing effort on her part. But she doesn't actually need to outlast him so whatever.


So your argument is basically wrong on every level and completely salvageable.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Well lets break down your argument for Revan winning:

He's highly unpredictable - False. There's nothing indicating unpredictability makes up a good part of his style.

I believe DarthAnt66 based this around the fact that Drew Karpshyn stated that Revan is more of a Generalist than anything and DarthAnt66 supports this by Revan's fight with an Imperial Guard.

Though if this were to be the what Unpredictability is based on, then Jaden Korr would be very unpredictable Maybe it's just me but these feints that Revan used are quite common in most SW literary works - maybe it's just the few that i've read? even then it is a common tactic.



Revan has no lightsaber duels that show him mixing up several styles at once, His only dueling feat was against an Imperial guard, Yusanis, Mandalore and Malak - even then we know little about his fight with Malak aside from a very vague "It was a brutal fight" which is left open to interpretation and doesn't really help Revan here.



Why is this debated? Revan - and i'm not trying to lowball him, has never demonstrated himself to be an aggressive fighter like Bane, nor has he demonstrated the same ferocity. Zannah's defenses were hard for even Bane - the man who defeated Kas'im and Raskta Lsu, two of the greatest duelists for their time - to break through. How would Revan - whom DarthAnt66 himself believed to be more of a force user than a duelist, break her defenses?


Yeah, DarthAnt66 -and i mean no offense with this, is a bit of a hypocrite on that, he clearly states in his Darth Malak combat overview thread on ComicVine that we shouldn't judge a characters faults when they clearly weren't in their peak. Quote is down below.

The next part I wish to address is rather a defense to a recent uprising against Darth Malak. In the Knights of the Old Republic comics, Mandalore the Ulimate triumphs over a young Malak with a mere swing of his infamous battle-axe. And then because of such, members believe this diminishes Darth Malak's overall abilities, and demonstrates he is a weaker character then we originally believed. This is incredibly deficient. Malak is *no* where near his prime, and literally years behind it. Darth Malak grew significantly more powerful being a Dark Lord, and rather a comparison that is fantastic is Anakin Skywalker himself. As a padawan during the Clone Wars, he was embarrassingly disarmed by A'Sharad Hett. However, members ignore this when debating the power of Anakin Skywalker from Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith. Why is this any different? Honestly, it isn't at all. Both have feats and accolades to prove they became crucially more powerful as time progressed. Below are the pictures of both Anakin Skywalker and Malak's defeat against their respective opponents.



What- I can't.. I How?


Let's say that Revan knew the forms Ant has mentioned. Ataru. Ataru doesn't do well against a Style that is specifically bred for tiring out your opponent and outlasting them and could easily tire Revan out. How would Revan outlast Zannah? He isn't seriously implying that Revan would do just as well against Bane if he was given the same circumstance....is he?



He made some good points, he just kinda forgets a few things i think.

Thanks for the support.

No, Ant isn't saying Revan would do as well against Bane. He seems to think Revan is better than Bane in sabers, since he says Revan would beat Zannah easily and is faster than her.

Lmfao. Fated trying to argue against me because he's butthurt about Sith trolling him. And of course, most of his points (along with Nephs) are wrong. Though, I will respond soon to Neph's argument.
And Neph, Fated's response didn't really give you any support, though confirmed the suspicions that many members on this forum don't know the basic elements of Star Wars abilities.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Thanks for the support.

No, Ant isn't saying Revan would do as well against Bane. He seems to think Revan is better than Bane in sabers, since he says Revan would beat Zannah easily and is faster than her.

That is very....foolish of him. But whatever, to each his own. And No problem Nephthys. Just wanted to clear up a few things is all. Good luck!

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Lmfao. Fated trying to argue against me because he's butthurt about Sith trolling him. And of course, most of his points (along with Nephs) are wrong. Though, I will respond soon to Neph's argument.
And Neph, Fated's response didn't really give you any support, though confirmed the suspicions that many members on this forum don't know the basic elements of Star Wars abilities.

So.... me trying to clear up a few things makes me butthurt..... Alrighty then, you're entitled to your opinion. Good luck to you too DarthAnt66.

You were wrong about everything though, especially the speed thing without a doubt, though since you don't own any sourcebooks, I'm not surprised. I will "educate" you on the art of Force Speed on Sunday.

Wow, Ant is taking Neph to the curb. *grabs popcorn*

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
You were wrong about everything though, especially the speed thing without a doubt, though since you don't own any sourcebooks, I'm not surprised. I will "educate" you on the art of Force Speed on Sunday.

Sure go ahead and "educate" me. But you really ought to work on following what you say. you seem to have an issue when it comes to hypocrisy(No offense), I mean I'll be the first to admit i dislike Savage and Maul, yet i don't lowball them to the point where i side with a troll(carthage) and say the most ridiculous things. But, to each his own.

Good luck DarthAnt66, i look forward to your - and Nephs, next post.