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Originally posted by HP Legend
Tiin and Darth Talon are quite similar in lighsaber combat. Their accolades are incredibly similar, and this gives us a very easy way to compare the two. Tiin is stated numerous times to be one of the best Lightsaber combatants in the order meanwhile Talon is stated to be one of the best duellists in Krayt's Empire (link). Now as to why this is relevant. You may be thinking but Arkham there's no way to compare the two. But there is. Krayt's Empire is directly compared to Malak and Revan's in terms of its power and overall Galactic Influence (link). Now of course Malak's Dark Jedi shared parity with the Jedi in KOTOR as is blatantly obvious by the confrontation between a Dark Jedi and a member of KOTOR's Jedi Order during the first mission in KOTOR (link) and the Jedi are stated to be at their peak in KOTOR.
Now of course I think there is evidence to the fact that the PT is the Jedi's peak, but this does indeed suggest parity between all 4 factions and any advantage is probably only slight.
So, we have:
PT Jedi=KOTOR Jedi=Malak's Sith Empire=Krayt's Sith Empire.
Now given how similar Talon and Tiin's accolades are and the fact that both Krayt's Empire and PT Jedi are comparable are I wouldn't say it's to much of a stretch to say Tiin=Talon in sabers.
So overall for Lightsaber Abilties we have Shado>Talon=Tiin. If you're going to blindly build off of Malak/Revan's empire, then you have to actually look at the Empire and chain of command. Third in power is Darth Bandon. Forth is Uthar Wynn. What have they done that compares to sparring evenly - sparring is supposed to build skills and PRACTICE - with Mace Windu, and being compared to Kit Fisto (bested General Grievious in combat), Agen Kolar (easily bested Vos in combat, but we'll get to him later), and in general being compared as better than almost every Jedi in the Order? Even with your contention against Shaak Ti, the evidence more so favors Tiin over her than vice versa. A compromise can be reached to put her on his level, not so the opposite, but even if you strongly disagree with him being above Shaak, you have to admit that it has more merit than saying that Krayt's Empire = Malak's, and therefore all the Jedi are equal across all Eras?
You just scaled Talon to Darth Bandon/Uthar Wynn (featless), and then scaled that to PT and expect them to be equals, yet you later raise a fuss about Tiin being above Shaak.
How did you end up as Talon = Tiin though? Why not Plo Koon, Yoda, Mace; why Tiin? Similar accolades in a weak era do not make her randomly equal to Tiin.
Your accolade also contrasts them in terms of power over the galaxy, of which Malak's Empire had almost complete control. It wasn't comparing the actual power of every Sith contained within - not that you really want it to of course - but even then it doesn't follow along with your train of thought.
KOTOR being compared to the PT Era was contrasting the Jedi before they were completely devastated by the Great Sith War, not after.
Originally posted by Knights of The Old Republic: Campaign Guide/The same source you're using
The Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide focuses on the period
between the Great Sith War and the final destruction of the old Sith Empire. During this time, the galaxy is embroiled in one war after another, and the Jedi are all but wiped out. Gamemasters have several choices for when, specifically, they might set a Knights of the Old Republic campaign. The following section describes the major conflicts and eras of this time.
As the galaxy becomes embroiled in a conflict between the Sith and the Republic, many Jedi fight on either side of the battle. Some defend the Republic from their former comrades, while others are tempted by the lure of the dark side.
The Great Sith War takes an interesting turn with lasting repercussions
when Ulic Qel-Droma vanquishes Lord Mandalore in single combat. This
binds the Mandalorian clans to the Sith Lord, and he uses their prowess
and numbers to redouble the Sith war effort. With both the Krath and the
Mandalorians at their command, the Sith ravage the galaxy and deal the
Republic blow after blow, staggering their forces. As more and more Sith
train on the planet Korriban, thousands of Jedi die at the hands of Krath
and Mandalorian forces.
The tide turns once more in favor of the Republic as the brothers Ulic
and Cay Qel-Droma engage in a vicious duel on Ossus. After slaying Cay, a despondent Ulic surrenders to the Jedi Nomi Sunrider. Following his capture, the Republic begins an offensive that drives the forces of the Sith back, eventually shattering the Krath forces, routing the Mandalorians, and scattering the few remaining Sith to the farthest reaches of the galaxy. Crippled by the prolonged war effort, the Republic cannot pursue the Sith forces, and Korriban remains under Sith control.
The Great Sith War is a devastating event that causes more damage than
any conflict since the Great Hyperspace War a thousand years before.
The Jedi Qrder, greatly depleted, turns inward to heal itself, increasing the
responsibilities of a Republic that is barely standing.
After a series of military failures, the Republic once again turns to the
Jedi Order for aid. Having been hit the hardest by the casualties of the Great Sith War, the Jedi Order refuses, at first, to join the military effort. However, among the Jedi are a few who cannot stand by while the Mandalorian invasion batters at the Republic's defenses, including a powerful Jedi called Revan. Revan leads other like-minded Jedi into battle once more, despite the Order's directive that they should not be involved. After victories against the Mandalorians, even more Jedi flock to Revan's call. Over time, the Republic cedes control of many of its military assets to the Jedi, and the Mandalorian Wars begin in full.
As battles rage across the galaxy, Mandalorians win victories against
the Republic and the Republic reclaims territories lost to the Mandalorians.
Quickly, Jedi such as Revan and his apprentice, Malak, become war heroes. After years of violent conflict, the Republic finally manages to repel the Mandalorians with a devastating victory at MalachorV. There, the Mandalorian forces are nearly wiped out. The surviving Mandalorians go into exile, and the Jedi are heralded as saviors of the Republic. Surprisingly, though. Revan and Malak gather the remnants of their fleets and flee into the Unknown Regions. For a short few months, peace reigns in the Republic once more, but questions surround the departure of the Jedi.
3,963 BBY: As the Republic continues to battle the Mandalorians across
all fronts, Revan attempts to persuade the Jedi Council to join the war. The
Council refuses, claiming that their losses during the Great Sith War were
too great.
From one end of the Knights of the Old Republic era to the other, the galaxy is constantly torn by wars, and times of peace seem more rare than times of conflict. Most of the heroes in a Knights of the Old Republic (except those set in the Great Sith War) will have experienced nearly a lifetime of war, and have likely felt the rippling effect of massive battles and horrific devastation. As such, the face of the galaxy is much different than in the classic era; the advent of the Clone Wars was a major event in the galaxy, while the Republic has already weathered two major wars by the time the Jedi Civil War begins.
ETC
However, if you do think a comparison such as this directly contrasts in power, then that would mean that the height of the Order = PT. Which would mean that Vandar Tokare, and Vrook Lamar are equal to Yoda and Mace Windu respectively. That's going to cause some problems outside this thread for trying to place Darth Traya, and Nihilus.
In summation:
The quote doesn't bring parity between random ranking members of the order, and even if it did, it doesn't mean much considering how pathetic the ranking members under Malak/Revan were. You're trying to assign random numbers to Jedi due to power over the galaxy by going backwards 4100 years, and then going forward 4000 years... It simply doesn't work. PT Era was impressive because of the individuals contained within, not simply for their accolades on influence/scope. And on that note, here's one more for you from that guidebook that shows they weren't actively scoping for talent:
I think I've sufficiently rendered this whole section inert without sacrificing too many characters towards it.
