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Who wins?

Hellstorm imho good fight

Shaman, better feats and more tools in the toolbox

In Last Defenders Hellstrom was described as being "more powerful than Dr Strange could ever be". He has the power of a hell lord as well as due tomhis human mother able to use mortal magic. Hes also defeated more powerful opponents and has many advantages like physicals ans time manipulation

Hellstrom take it easily

Originally posted by beatboks
In Last Defenders Hellstrom was described as being "more powerful than Dr Strange could ever be". He has the power of a hell lord as well as due tomhis human mother able to use mortal magic. Hes also defeated more powerful opponents and has many advantages like physicals ans time manipulation

Hellstrom take it easily

This . Hellstrom is a hell lord, and has abilities like TP, time travel, soul burning, instant regen, weather control, and more. He has shown many times limits in his younger days, now not so much.

Since you guys seem to think time manipulation gives him the win (and easily), while ignoring shaman has that ability he just has one thing to say to you...."shush"

Also shaman has spells that restrained Sasquatch, hell storm is not physically stronger then Sasquatch

KM, you didn't let me down.

Haha me thinks you don't know shaman everything you posted he has done. Now your going to the telepathy route? Well shamans telepathy has spanned over a galaxy and is a high level user himself

Wrong in my post? Shaman actually did all the things I listed...easily. No attack? Hmmm tell that to llan and the great beasts who are significantly above hell storm. I'm at my cottage for the weekend but I'll drop all the scans. There are already in the respect thread

Contrary to believe hell storm can and has been hurt even by beings less then shaman

Oh my.

Things just go hot in hurrrrr.

This will be a good debate between you two. Keep it decent, keep it civil, and everybody gets educated about your two fav underrated characters

Also This

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/107456/4014421-8883187080-40097.jpg

Shows that on Debut Daimon was almost Satan's equal in power once he had acquired the Neteranium trident. That was before His full darksoul was released and he possessed his pwoer and was further amped and LONG before he ascended (or descended) became a hell lord himself.

That is the same satan who is also
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/30145/4029525-satan+is+all+hell+lords.jpg
Mephisto, Satannish, and Thog. All of whom Classic Strange has shown to be below in power. hell the magic of Strange and Doom combined can't beat mephisto
http://www.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic.comicvine.com%2Fuploads%2Foriginal%2F10%2F102593%2F1922685-1.jpg&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.comicvine.com%2Fforums%2Fbattles-7%2Fdark-phoenix-vs-dr-strange-vs-ganthet-vs-dr-fate-623976%2F&h=770&w=1024&tbnid=t0L0NhP-e4oqAM%3A&zoom=1&docid=IqOsihOEyv1WUM&ei=lHwAVIXIE9KzogTJ0YCgCg&tbm=isch&iact=rc&uact=3&dur=461&page=1&start=0&ndsp=20&ved=0CB4QMygBMAE&biw=1280&bih=613
Classic Strange required the help of a team to match and best him. It was called the Defenders, you might have heard of it.

Originally posted by -K-M-
Haha me thinks you don't know shaman everything you posted he has done. Now your going to the telepathy route? Well shamans telepathy has spanned over a galaxy and is a high level user himself

Wrong in my post? Shaman actually did all the things I listed...easily. No attack? Hmmm tell that to llan and the great beasts who are significantly above hell storm. I'm at my cottage for the weekend but I'll drop all the scans. There are already in the respect thread

Contrary to believe hell storm can and has been hurt even by beings less then shaman

Context dude, context. the real LIAn was defeated by Talisman not her father and the LIan that Shaman fought was an aspect of him taken mortal form. That doesn't even make him demon level let alone hell lord status.

I didn't mean you were wrong for Shaman, you definitely got it vastly wrong for Helstrom in physicals and a LOT more.

Also if you noted Hellstrom isn't a telepath he can simply manifest force an a psychic level that crushes them. This was to show he can battle telepathy no matter what.

Oh I'm also keen to see when Shaman has
Tanked high level energy blasts without a magic spell of protection.
Withstood the physical blow of falling from the stratosphere
taken physical blows from Satan's hell captains
walked through fire unscathed
shown super strength
survived point blank explosions without protection.
controlled the earth with just a point and a thought
used hell fire, let alone demostrated such control to melt shackles without harming the hands within.
brought the dead back to life with a subconscious thought (let alone healed with a touch).
after all

I said hurt not beat. So if he can hurt llan he can hurt hellstorm as you claimed he couldn't. He has beat ranaq the great beast and do you know them at all?

Again he has restrained people far more physically strong then him. He wouldn't have any issues here as well.

Good for him. Except shaman is a telepath and magical defended for that very thing. Scans will come after the long weekend. Heading to cottage now

Did you miss the part where he absorbed and sucked up an ATOMiC BOMB blast?

Wow you really do play it loose with the context.

Ranaq was also in a host the first time they fought, and he basically delayed him with the help of snow bird, and a few others I can't recall. Pretty sure he was "beaten by a magic bullet from some other guy.

Second time was also in a host and again it was Talisman not Shaman who won the day.

If your going to keep using his Daughters feats to sell his strengths, that is pretty lame.

I like Alpha Flight and have a couple of runs (up to issue 90 or so of the 80's series and the one form the 90's that only lasted a year or two) You might wnat to steer around those issues if your gonna post out of context feats.

Talisman weakened Ranaq the second time absorbing his powers making him weak and then the host was killed by the bullet. Now that's context. Not was I even referencing that fight. Shaman fought ranaq solo

Not once did I use talisman or make refernece to her. You keep doing that.

Alright I can see your trolling. Nothing I put was out of context but seems all you got is trying to discredit me when no one has even said I take things out of context....ever.

It's not trolling when I clearly made it easy to see which battles i was referencing. I didn't even remember Talisman in the first one I mentioned which again from memory was in the past. I remembered Snowbird being present. The second one (again from memory - will pull some old issues tomorrow) was the same guy who shot him much older and his daughter or grand daughter was possessed (something like that)

If there is another instance of them fighting then I don't know it. An issue number (or close, cause I'm stuffed if I can recall issue numbers, bout 8 months to a year into that 80's run I "think", or a story ark or something. Every instance I'm aware of him facing him was a host and a team effort.

Beatboks my friend, you still are one of the best here or anywhere to these older characters lol.

Originally posted by CadenceV2
Beatboks my friend, you still are one of the best here or anywhere to these older characters lol.

I have no doubt Operator616 could knowledge dump me out of existence. I've seen him drop knowledge that I had no clue on, and he's shown as much knowledge on even Golden age characters as I have.

Originally posted by beatboks
I have no doubt Operator616 could knowledge dump me out of existence. I've seen him drop knowledge that I had no clue on, and he's shown as much knowledge on even Golden age characters as I have.

You still intorduce me to characters like Shield. The superior Captain America lol.

Hype won't save Daimon.

Originally posted by krisblaze
Hype won't save Daimon.

Considering that every single scan (bar the one where Hellcat and Mephisto entered his realm, and the few i loaded from the 2007 mini) was prior to his upgrade to hell lord status and several were before he fully attained his darksoul, how is any of it hype??

He's vastly more pwoerful now that most of the scans I offered which were classic (from the 70's and 80's when he was SHOWN to be Classic Strange's equal in feats).

To counter that so far we have had Llun offered. Who as I recall when he first met the team easily soloed all of them. Forced Talisman to fight him which released him and trapped them in the battle realm. They managed to get to a nexus which allowed them to get to a world that appeared to be theirs but was a dreamscape that was easily manipulated by their own thoughts to control the reality within. Even in the Dream scape Shaman was pretty badly injured and had to heal himself with the reality warping that it made possible (not his own power). Once they finally did get free he was still coughing badly and IIRC collapsed.

Their next encounter Shaman was injured or KO'd when Llun kidnapped Talisman and trapped her in a place she couldn't get to earth magic (her source of power). He'd made preparations to seal teh doorway of light ( not 100% sure that is even the correct name - but a gateway that all the forces of good come though or army of good to fight evil). This was finally breached by Dr Strange (from the inside) and Talisman from the outside. Only when both of them were trying to open it did it.

It was the army of good who won the day not Shaman, and as I recall his showings in that tale were pretty abysmal and not much to offer.

They are the only two encounters with Alpha flight I'm aware of. Some of the specifics I've mentioned are likely a little off (still haven't gone looking through my comics for the issues been at the wives relatives all day a couple hours drive away).

The other offering so far is ranaq. The first encounter I'm aware of with him was only him in the host of a young woman after he kitchen or some meal she was cooking attacked her. Something to to with her father or grandtather. Shaman went to the place with his daughter (before she was Talisman IIRC this was the first time she was aware of her power). When the young woman attacked them the future talisman somehow instinctively turned the power back on her. While she was battling it Shaman (again from memory) threw some jewels from his pouch at it and destroyed it.

The other was when they went into the past and some old western cronie was tricked into removing a mystical talisman that protected him from Ranaq to receive hi reward and subsequently possessed. It ws Snowbird who fought him not Shaman ( and according to KM Talisman was also there but I only vaguely remember that after he mentioned it). While they battled the Kid (who was there also with mystical protection) shot the other old cronie with a magic bullet and they won. Again nothing to do with Shaman as I recall.

none of these examples as best I can recall are great showings for Shaman. If there are other times he fought these two please point them out.

I wouldn't count Llan as the same level as a hell Lord (which Hellstrom has defeated more than once), but I would say Ranaq is pretty close. i just don't see any great showing in their encounters based on the context as I remember it.

Bumping this to see if KM can offer other showings (preferably with context) that I'm unaware of. As I said on page one, not trolling I just don't see the incidents against the characters he has mentioned as very good showings for Shaman at all.

Oh sorry completely forgot about this, been busy as recently bought a house so haven't been on much and slipped my mind. Won't be adding much as will be busy unpacking so just a few points and then I'm going to be AWOL for awhile.

Everything is here from soul manipulation/trapping, weather manipulation, time manipulation, duplications, shields that held multiple wendigo at once, pouch sucking up an atomic bomb blast, galactic spanning telepathy, etc. All of which people said Damien could do and thus give him the win.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f98/t490553.html

You missed the point if he could hurt Llan and other beings more powerful then Hellstorm there is no reason (As you claimed) Shaman couldn't hurt him. Also Llan is above the Great Beasts and is stated as such (Llan > Ranaq) and Llan would destroy Hellstorm.

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c365/A_Flight4/AlphaFlight71-21.jpg

You really are focusing a lot on titles alone. Even in New Avengers/Chaos War (haven't read Avengers Undercover)Hellstorm didn't look uber. If this was in his realm where he would have absolute control sure this could be a stomp but it's not.

Sidenote, the second Ranaq fight had Puck, Snowbird, Shaman and Talisman there (they went into the past as Shaman teleported them through time). Snowbird merely got shot away and really didn't fight him and then Shaman began healing her. In this fight only Talisman fought Ranaq and after absorbing his powers was shot with the magical bullet and killed the host. That's why I didn't bring it up.

For additional information for you or others:

Great Beast respect thread
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f98/t545957.html

Llan respect tread
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f98/t446207.html

Everything is there including issue numbers if you wish to look up the issues yourself. Context is there. Others please feel free to continue to debate, I won't be around much for awhile so won't be adding anything else.

Sorry again beatboks

Split.