Zoom vs Superman

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Insane Titan
Hunter vs Clark

Superman is going all out

Who wins

DarkSaint85
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/7/72524/3215080-3547861395-15174.jpg

Zack Fair
Zoom that toys with Flash, hits as hard as Superman and tools the league > Superman

Insane Titan
Even if superman is going all out ?

Golgo13
Zoom!

Zack Fair
Originally posted by Insane Titan
Even if superman is going all out ? I dunno. Depends on who you think is superior. I'm sure Superman has uber high end showings similar to Zoom's.

Zoom's speed/time powers thing will be tough to overcome IMHO

Estacado
Zoom beats the sh1t out of Superman before he can even make a move.

carver9
Superman has already tagged a blitzing Zoom. Depends on which Zoom is in this battle.

Prof. T.C McAbe
Zoom wins, even an all out Superman should be "slower". Only with PIS CIS on would he win, as Zoom plays too much.

Zack Fair
thumb up

h1a8
Zoom stomps with ease, unless he's plays around.

Star428
Superman wins. Tell me, can Zoom fly? No? Didn't think so. Zoom can't really hurt Superman. Superman, for example, can go way up in the air and create hurricane force winds which would knock Zoom off his feet and carry him helpless into the air and then Superman can dispose of him however he pleases. Zoom has to have his feet on the ground to be effective and Superman has plenty of ways to take that away from him.

Galan007
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/7/72524/3215080-3547861395-15174.jpg thumb up

Also this:
http://s21.postimg.org/hx17qhf3b/The_Flash_1987_2009_200_021.jpg

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by Star428
Superman wins. Tell me, can Zoom fly? No? Didn't think so. Zoom can't really hurt Superman. Superman, for example, can go way up in the air and create hurricane force winds which would knock Zoom off his feet and carry him helpless into the air and then Superman can dispose of him however he pleases. Zoom has to have his feet on the ground to be effective and Superman has plenty of ways to take that away from him.

They start the battle on the ground.

Star428
LOL@ how people blow things out of proportion to try and claim Superman loses. Those scans don't show Zoom doing any real damage to Superman. It's not like it was an extended fight or something. Zoom punched him a dozen or so times then ran away. It's not like he hung around and beat Superman down or anything. Do you seriously think Zoom could've kept that (punching Superman like that) up for very long? It wouldnt've taken Superman long to realize what was happening. He would've adjusted to the situation quickly and done something about it if Zoom hadn't ran away like a pussy.

DarkSaint85
For very long?

What is time to him? He could've punched him for as long as he wanted to.

Philosophía
Zoom.

quanchi112

krisblaze
Originally posted by Galan007
thumb up

Also this:
http://s21.postimg.org/hx17qhf3b/The_Flash_1987_2009_200_021.jpg
This scan sums it up.

abhilegend
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/7/72524/3215080-3547861395-15174.jpg Originally posted by Galan007
thumb up

Also this:
http://s21.postimg.org/hx17qhf3b/The_Flash_1987_2009_200_021.jpg
Zoom is faster than Superman, no doubt about it. How is he beating Superman though? Because his resume is filled with too many instances of failing to beat sub-superman level characters. Like wonder woman, power girl, almost being tied with Bizarro, beaten up by Jessie Quick, beaten by Bart, beaten up by Inertia.


Outside of his first appearance Zoom was hardly at that level.

krisblaze
Abhi for the desperation.

abhilegend
More like actual comics as reference instead of make believe power levels of Zoom. For all his hype, he has never beaten a single top tier straight up. Dude can't even KO Power Girl with a million punches, how would he KO Superman?

DarkSaint85
What is time to Zoom? He lives between the ticks of a second. A million won't KO? How about two? Three?

Star428
LOL. An infinite number won't be enough for someone like Zoom to KO Superman. He just doesn't have the tools to put Kal down long enough for a win. All he can ever really be is a nuisance (like an insect) to Superman. Never an actual threat.

Abhilegend has a point. Who has Zoom EVER actually beaten on Superman's level? Is WW the closest one to Supe's level that he's beaten (by tying her up with her own lasso)?

JBL
Zoom in a stomp.

krisblaze
Originally posted by abhilegend
More like actual comics as reference instead of make believe power levels of Zoom. For all his hype, he has never beaten a single top tier straight up. Dude can't even KO Power Girl with a million punches, how would he KO Superman?
Total number of wins doesn't mean anything.

Very few villains will ever rack up 'wins' in that sense, it's not an argument against or for his abilities.

If he can hit Diana miles and miles then he can hit hard enough to hurt Superman.

His losses are mostly people catching him off guard, for all the sense that makes, bullshit which went against Johns' creation and why he removed him in Final Crisis.

There's no limit to how many times he could hit Superman. A million doesn't matter. He can hurt him, he'll win. Superman wouldn't have the chance to do anything anyways, he'd be a statue.

abhilegend
Originally posted by krisblaze
Total number of wins doesn't mean anything.

Very few villains will ever rack up 'wins' in that sense, it's not an argument against or for his abilities.

If he can hit Diana miles and miles then he can hit hard enough to hurt Superman.

His losses are mostly people catching him off guard, for all the sense that makes, bullshit which went against Johns' creation and why he removed him in Final Crisis.

There's no limit to how many times he could hit Superman. A million doesn't matter. He can hurt him, he'll win. Superman wouldn't have the chance to do anything anyways, he'd be a statue.
Johns had him losing to Jessie Quick and Kal-L, two of his most humiliating losses. Oh and getting punked by Inertia.

Zack Fair
Damn. Zoom an insect.

DarkSaint85
Lol. When losing to Kingdom Come Superman is one of your most humiliating showings......

Let's pull up some of Superman's humiliating showings, shall we, and compare? stick out tongue

abhilegend
The fact is, five beings have tagged/beaten/looked close to Zoom and they are all either peers or lower than Superman. Bizarro, Kal-L, Jessie Quick, Wonder Woman and Jay Garrick.

http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m610/sonnendawg/12dam.jpg
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m610/sonnendawg/15dam.jpg
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m610/sonnendawg/19dam.jpg
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m610/sonnendawg/20dam.jpg
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m610/sonnendawg/21dam.jpg

And for everything Zoom making Superman look like a statue, here is Zoom almost losing to Bizarro in a race.

http://i43.tinypic.com/2ci7bpl.png

Or Wally keeping up with him while Zoom is trying to go as fast as possible.

http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m610/sonnendawg/Untitled-Scanned-09.jpg
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m610/sonnendawg/Untitled-Scanned-10.jpg
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m610/sonnendawg/Untitled-Scanned-11.jpg
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m610/sonnendawg/Untitled-Scanned-12.jpg
http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m610/sonnendawg/Untitled-Scanned-13.jpg

Under lightspeed. So yeah, he is really untouchable.

roll eyes (sarcastic)

Not my scans BTW.

abhilegend
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Lol. When losing to Kingdom Come Superman is one of your most humiliating showings......

Let's pull up some of Superman's humiliating showings, shall we, and compare? stick out tongue
It was Kal-L and Superman was an exact equal to him under Johns. But hey, Superman never got beat up by Damage and put under a headlock, did he?

Star428
How about you Zoom supporters put your money where your mouth is and post scans of Zoom actually defeating a Superman-level character? Instead of scans that just show him throwing a bunch of sissy punches at Superman that have no real effect on him and then tucking tail and running away like a scared little wuss. Until you do that, you're all hot air with your Zoom beats Superman and/or "speed trumps all" BS.

Insane Titan
It's funny a superman fan saying show scans Zoom beating someone Superman lvl, yet when posters asked for scans of Gladiator beating anyone Thanos lvl that method doesn't work.

krisblaze
Abhi's still not familiar with KMC rules (amazing how much I have to bring them up.)

Zoom's fighting to the best of his ability here.

This means that Superman won't be able to move, and that he's hitting hard enough to hurt Superman/Wonder Woman/PG.

Superman loses.
Originally posted by abhilegend
Johns had him losing to Jessie Quick and Kal-L, two of his most humiliating losses. Oh and getting punked by Inertia.

Inertia was how Johns removed him no expression

And Inertia's strategy is one of the many ways in which Zoom could beat him.

Counting wins is pointless when one is the comic-book character with the highest appearances in the world, and the other is a villain who specifically tries to improve the heroes he fight.

abhilegend
He is also fighting in character and in character he wouldn't do against someone like Superman.Originally posted by krisblaze
Abhi's still not familiar with KMC rules (amazing how much I have to bring them up.)

Zoom's fighting to the best of his ability here.

This means that Superman won't be able to move, and that he's hitting hard enough to hurt Superman/Wonder Woman/PG.

Superman loses.


Inertia was how Johns removed him no expression

And Inertia's strategy is one of the many ways in which Zoom could beat him.

Counting wins is pointless when one is the comic-book character with the highest appearances in the world, and the other is a villain who specifically tries to improve the heroes he fight.
Despite the fact that Kal-L and Bizarro both reacted to him? Superman also reacted to Professor Zoom who wrecked the entire Flash family and who Barry Allen was unable to even touch.


And Superman can tank punches that can hurt WW/PG all day long.

abhilegend
Originally posted by Insane Titan
It's funny a superman fan saying show scans Zoom beating someone Superman lvl, yet when posters asked for scans of Gladiator beating anyone Thanos lvl that method doesn't work.
Because Gladiator can't beat Thanos. He will be lucky to survive a few punches.

Star428
Originally posted by Insane Titan
It's funny a superman fan saying show scans Zoom beating someone Superman lvl, yet when posters asked for scans of Gladiator beating anyone Thanos lvl that method doesn't work.


LOL. Exactly when did I ever claim that Gladiator could beat Thanos? I think you have me confused with another Supe's fan.

Insane Titan
Originally posted by abhilegend
Because Gladiator can't beat Thanos. He will be lucky to survive a few punches. that wasn't the argument made by several Superfans.

abhilegend
Originally posted by Insane Titan
that wasn't the argument made by several Superfans.
I don't know who they are but I always argue with what's in the comics. Not made up theories to how characters would act.

krisblaze
Originally posted by abhilegend
He is also fighting in character and in character he wouldn't do against someone like Superman.
Despite the fact that Kal-L and Bizarro both reacted to him? Superman also reacted to Professor Zoom who wrecked the entire Flash family and who Barry Allen was unable to even touch.


And Superman can tank punches that can hurt WW/PG all day long.

He was fighting in-character against the amped Wally, when Superman was a statue in the air.

Do you think he would be trying to improve Superman here, is that your argument? That Superman would win because Zoom's not trying to win?

All day? Haha, only in your head.

For eternity? No chance.

abhilegend
Originally posted by krisblaze
He was fighting in-character against the amped Wally, when Superman was a statue in the air.

Do you think he would be trying to improve Superman here, is that your argument? That Superman would win because Zoom's not trying to win?

All day? Haha, only in your head.

For eternity? No chance.
That's the only showing which makes an argument about him. He has really no other showing at that level and that's why that is not a normal/average showing for him. Villains make a great entrance usually. Just look at most of Johns' villains.

Zoom wouldn't be able to beat Superman, because he has zero feats of beating someone so durable and strong. He can't even beat WW FFS.

Should I post feats of Superman's durability against Zoom level punches? Even under Johns Rogues survived his bloodlusted punches.

http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/17061684_18.jpg http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/17061685_19.jpg

As well as Damage.

http://i39.tinypic.com/33xk1za.jpg

But let me guess, they are all PIS, right?

Zoom has never done that to anybody, so that's moot anyway.

h1a8
Originally posted by abhilegend
That's the only showing which makes an argument about him. He has really no other showing at that level and that's why that is not a normal/average showing for him. Villains make a great entrance usually. Just look at most of Johns' villains.

Zoom wouldn't be able to beat Superman, because he has zero feats of beating someone so durable and strong. He can't even beat WW FFS.

Should I post feats of Superman's durability against Zoom level punches? Even under Johns Rogues survived his bloodlusted punches.

http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/17061684_18.jpg http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/17061685_19.jpg

As well as Damage.

http://i39.tinypic.com/33xk1za.jpg

But let me guess, they are all PIS, right?

Zoom has never done that to anybody, so that's moot anyway.

Be careful Abhi.
This occurs in comics all the time. You have the scaling factor (characters scale to who they are fighting). Trans beings and higher have hit metabeings (especially in groups) and not killed them. Usually popular characters (even villains and objects) are protected by plot.

Plus it seems that Zoom was talking to them. If he wanted to kill them then why talk?

Remember Zoom can slow time down to any degree he wants. He has never shown a limit. He went slower than other times because of choice, not because he couldn't go faster. If he's fighting Superman, then surely he would be faster than Superman can move.
Remember this fight is will Full Capacity. That has to mean something.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by abhilegend
The fact is, five beings have tagged/beaten/looked close to Zoom and they are all either peers or lower than Superman. Bizarro, Kal-L, Jessie Quick, Wonder Woman and Jay Garrick.


And for everything Zoom making Superman look like a statue, here is Zoom almost losing to Bizarro in a race.


Cool I'll remember this argument when it comes to Superman vs Thor/Hulk threads. No double standards now Abhi stick out tongue

DarkSaint85
Lol.

Let me step up (2 the streets!).

I posted the first scan. It shows Batman surviving Zoom's punches. Are Zoom's punches Bane-level, now?

Abhi, ABC logic does not work. Star, you too. You asked:

Originally posted by Star428
How about you Zoom supporters put your money where your mouth is and post scans of Zoom actually defeating a Superman-level character? Instead of scans that just show him throwing a bunch of sissy punches at Superman that have no real effect on him and then tucking tail and running away like a scared little wuss. Until you do that, you're all hot air with your Zoom beats Superman and/or "speed trumps all" BS.

We have, in a canon comic, only ONE incident of Zoom attacking Superman. Not Superman-level, or an analgoue of mainstream Supes, or Bizarro, or WW, or Jesse - the real deal. The main man.

Superman himself.

These facts are inarguable. They have met once. Zoom hit Superman. No debate there.

The attached image is the result.

Stop trying to cloud the issue and dodge the point with Bizarro, or Kal-L etc. Their feats/showings are completely irrelevant here.

What IS relevant, is that in the one time they met, Zoom was punching Superman. AND he was affected (check his face out).

So yeah, Zoom wins. The only proof, ONLY proof, that matters, that can negate this, is another showing SUPERMAN tagging Zoom, and/or no-selling his attacks. We all know what Superman no-selling punches looks like, and it sure as hell does not look like this:

Star428
LOL@how you keep posting the same scan of Zoom throwing all those ineffectual punches against Clark like that actually proves anything.

krisblaze
Look at his face no expression

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by Star428
LOL@how you keep posting the same scan of Zoom throwing all those ineffectual punches against Clark like that actually proves anything.

A: It's not ineffectual.
B: Have you got anything, ANYTHING, showing SUPERMAN vs ZOOM, that showcases him not being affected by it? Read my post again, try not to get too distracted by the bright colours in the pretty pictures. Not Kal-L, Bizarro, or whatever, but SUPERMAN.

This is Superman tanking punches like a champ:
http://lounge.moviecodec.com/images/attachment/fixd-35683.jpg

The scan I showed, was not.

DarkSaint85
Tomorrow, I am going to make a thread. Character A vs Character B.

Poster A: shows how A has met B before, and when they did, A rocked B with his punches.

Poster B: Nah-uh, you see, A was unable to kill these cannon fodder weaklings who are FAR beneath B, therefore, despite their canon meetings, B wins!

Also, B can do this, and that, and this, and despite it never being shown, Character A was actually AFRAID of B when they met, so A punched B a few times (ineffectually, despite the art showing otherwise) and then RAN AWAY LIKE A *****!!!

An additional point is, Character B has beaten Character C, who has beaten Character A. Therefore, Character B will stomp Character A into paste.

My thread will be called H/P Doomsday vs Darkseid. You see, a weaker Doomsday was unable to kill Booster Gold, and Bloodwynd, who are all far below Darkseid when he punched them. Also, when they met, Doomsday punched Darkseid a few times, then ran away in fear. Darkseid you see has all these cool powers, and will surely win!

celeyhyga17
Clark takes this as per stips.

He drops a planet on Hunter after ripping him in half.

Galan007
i don't see the difficulty here. as the panel DS has posted blatantly shows us: superman cannot simply 'tank' a zoom-blitz... zoom's punches undeniably have *some* sort of negative effect on him:
http://i.imgur.com/ULiFn7G.jpg
look and superman's facial expression and body posture. not only does he appear defenseless, but those punches are hurting him to some degree... and keep in mind: zoom was just trolling the league there. he was absolutely not fighting to the best of his ability(the blitz was only a panel long, ffs.)

now compare superman's expressions in the above scene to when he *actually* no-sells a punch:
http://i.imgur.com/TuNZHmT.jpg

night and day difference. smile


anyway, the fact of the matter is that superman is never coming close to touching an all-out zoom. imo, the *best* supes can hope for is a stalemate.

DarkSaint85
Lies, Galan. Those punches are tickling Supes. That's his O face. He's loving it.

Galan007
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Lies, Galan. Those punches are tickling Supes. That's his O face. He's loving it. *fights urge to make a mcdonalds reference*

DarkSaint85
Bump.

quanchi112
Superman is too slow for him.

abhilegend
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Lol.

Let me step up (2 the streets!).

I posted the first scan. It shows Batman surviving Zoom's punches. Are Zoom's punches Bane-level, now?

Abhi, ABC logic does not work. Star, you too. You asked:



We have, in a canon comic, only ONE incident of Zoom attacking Superman. Not Superman-level, or an analgoue of mainstream Supes, or Bizarro, or WW, or Jesse - the real deal. The main man.

Superman himself.

These facts are inarguable. They have met once. Zoom hit Superman. No debate there.

The attached image is the result.

Stop trying to cloud the issue and dodge the point with Bizarro, or Kal-L etc. Their feats/showings are completely irrelevant here.

What IS relevant, is that in the one time they met, Zoom was punching Superman. AND he was affected (check his face out).

So yeah, Zoom wins. The only proof, ONLY proof, that matters, that can negate this, is another showing SUPERMAN tagging Zoom, and/or no-selling his attacks. We all know what Superman no-selling punches looks like, and it sure as hell does not look like this:
But then, there are feats for Superman where he has tagged faster people than Zoom. Like Professor Zoom.

http://s1113.photobucket.com/user/abhilegend/media/Superman/TimeMasters-VanishingPoint5022.jpg.html

Who we all know shitstomped entire Flash Family at once.Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Cool I'll remember this argument when it comes to Superman vs Thor/Hulk threads. No double standards now Abhi stick out tongue

I have no problems with that. I never argue with anything made up.Originally posted by Galan007
i don't see the difficulty here. as the panel DS has posted blatantly shows us: superman cannot simply 'tank' a zoom-blitz... zoom's punches undeniably have *some* sort of negative effect on him:
http://i.imgur.com/ULiFn7G.jpg
look and superman's facial expression and body posture. not only does he appear defenseless, but those punches are hurting him to some degree... and keep in mind: zoom was just trolling the league there. he was absolutely not fighting to the best of his ability(the blitz was only a panel long, ffs.)

now compare superman's expressions in the above scene to when he *actually* no-sells a punch:
http://i.imgur.com/TuNZHmT.jpg

night and day difference. smile


anyway, the fact of the matter is that superman is never coming close to touching an all-out zoom. imo, the *best* supes can hope for is a stalemate.
Zoom can affect Superman with his punches. But like Superman once said, hurting him isn't that difficult. Surviving him is.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_FPAetrvLhD4/TGfVYmJ9HAI/AAAAAAAABUs/4P2zulKtir0/s1600/Superman702-014.jpg

And we know that a bloodlusted Zoom with a million punches didn't even made PG go back, let alone KO her. Notice PG grabbing him by throat?

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/107619/2319788-zoompunch1qv3.jpg

Even a random Amazon survived two hundred punches from him.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111118007/3215212-221_wonder_woman_v2_214_page_15.jpg

And if PG can grab Zoom, Bizarro can, Kal-L can, Wonder Woman can, Jessie Quick can, you can be damn sure that Superman can.

And Zoom's sissy punches are sure as hell not KOing Superman.

big grin

abhilegend
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Tomorrow, I am going to make a thread. Character A vs Character B.

Poster A: shows how A has met B before, and when they did, A rocked B with his punches.

Poster B: Nah-uh, you see, A was unable to kill these cannon fodder weaklings who are FAR beneath B, therefore, despite their canon meetings, B wins!

Also, B can do this, and that, and this, and despite it never being shown, Character A was actually AFRAID of B when they met, so A punched B a few times (ineffectually, despite the art showing otherwise) and then RAN AWAY LIKE A *****!!!

An additional point is, Character B has beaten Character C, who has beaten Character A. Therefore, Character B will stomp Character A into paste.

My thread will be called H/P Doomsday vs Darkseid. You see, a weaker Doomsday was unable to kill Booster Gold, and Bloodwynd, who are all far below Darkseid when he punched them. Also, when they met, Doomsday punched Darkseid a few times, then ran away in fear. Darkseid you see has all these cool powers, and will surely win!
Its not that. Zoom has never really beaten anyone on Superman's level. You bring one character he has KOED at Superman's level of durability and I will change my vote to Zoom.

DarkSaint85
Right, right.

So at least we are now in agreement that Zoom CAN hurt Superman.

And is much faster than him.

The punches that affected Superman - how many are there? 10, 20, 30?

Imagine a million of them.

On panel, PG > Superman..

krisblaze
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
On panel, PG > Superman..
Obviously Zoom hit PG a lot because he wanted to touch her more.

He was hitting Superman much harder because he didn't want his fist rubbing against Kal's disgusting cheek.

Joke aside though I think that's what happened. He hit PG with more weaker punches, and Superman with stronger but fewer blows.

abhilegend
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Right, right.

So at least we are now in agreement that Zoom CAN hurt Superman.

And is much faster than him.

The punches that affected Superman - how many are there? 10, 20, 30?

Imagine a million of them.

On panel, PG > Superman..
But of course, we can't just comprehend Zoom losing to anybody. So we conclude an ass backward conclusion and based on nothing in Zoom's history that he has never beaten anyone before on Superman's level that he actually beats Superman.

Seriously, Zoom is the Absorbing Man of DC. No matter who he fights, he will find a way to lose.

And who said Superman can't shrug off a million punches or even a billion punches if we're applying no limit fallacy here? You don't want me to bring Superman's durability feats here. Seriously you don't.

Zoom is faster than Superman, not so fast that Superman can't hit him. He hit much faster Professor Zoom after all.

And your silence about Zoom beating anybody on Superman's level is duly noted. Seriously, this is like talking to h1a8 at this point.

ermm

abhilegend
Originally posted by krisblaze
Obviously Zoom hit PG a lot because he wanted to touch her more.

He was hitting Superman much harder because he didn't want his fist rubbing against Kal's disgusting cheek.

Joke aside though I think that's what happened. He hit PG with more weaker punches, and Superman with stronger but fewer blows.
But that's ass backward too. He was trying to kill PG, he was trolling Superman. So either Zoom punches weakly the more bloodlusted he is or Johns has a very high opinion of his pet character.

krisblaze
What's with the awkward wording? 'Pet character'.

Are you trying to somehow diminsh Zoom in the eyes of other people by talking shit about him?

And I don't know. Johns had the Flash attack the same way. Sometimes he'd hit really, really hard with a few punches and other times he'd strike someone many times with weaker punches.

Raisen
how can superman really win this with PIS off?

DarkSaint85
Worst thing was, his cheek rubbing was making Clark explode with joygasming. The filthy pervert.

But yes, I take your point. As silly as it is, more punches = weaker punches.

Oh, I know, in real life quick jabs vs haymakers etc etc. But he controls time - he literally has all the time in the world to line up multiple haymakers.

krisblaze
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Worst thing was, his cheek rubbing was making Clark explode with joygasming. The filthy pervert.

But yes, I take your point. As silly as it is, more punches = weaker punches.

Oh, I know, in real life quick jabs vs haymakers etc etc. But he controls time - he literally has all the time in the world to line up multiple haymakers.
This kind of inconsistency is why it's so annoying to debate characters that belong to big companies.

Writer A has a great vision for his character.

Writer B uses said character as a dumb mook.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by abhilegend
But of course, we can't just comprehend Zoom losing to anybody. So we conclude an ass backward conclusion and based on nothing in Zoom's history that he has never beaten anyone before on Superman's level that he actually beats Superman.

Seriously, Zoom is the Absorbing Man of DC. No matter who he fights, he will find a way to lose.

And who said Superman can't shrug off a million punches or even a billion punches if we're applying no limit fallacy here? You don't want me to bring Superman's durability feats here. Seriously you don't.

Zoom is faster than Superman, not so fast that Superman can't hit him. He hit much faster Professor Zoom after all.

And your silence about Zoom beating anybody on Superman's level is duly noted. Seriously, this is like talking to h1a8 at this point.

ermm

I didn't have silence. I posted him punching Superman, who didn't have any ability to react to him, and was being hurt by him.

You're the one who's silent on showing anything, ANYTHING, on how Superman can do anything to Zoom. Not Thawne, not PG, not Bizarro, not Kal-L, but Superman himself, against Hunter.

Because the two times these two characters (Zolomon and Clark Kent) have met, Zolomon trolled him and treated him like a feeb. And that is inarguable. Hence, comics, in canon, have shown that 100% of the times they have met, Superman was unable to do anything to Zolomon.

quanchi112
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I didn't have silence. I posted him punching Superman, who didn't have any ability to react to him, and was being hurt by him.

You're the one who's silent on showing anything, ANYTHING, on how Superman can do anything to Zoom. Not Thawne, not PG, not Bizarro, not Kal-L, but Superman himself, against Hunter.

Because the two times these two characters (Zolomon and Clark Kent) have met, Zolomon trolled him and treated him like a feeb. And that is inarguable. Hence, comics, in canon, have shown that 100% of the times they have met, Superman was unable to do anything to Zolomon. thumb up

Branlor Swift
This reminds me of the Prime vs Zoom thread.

Basically Zoom has one good showing of Superman punches where he basically coldcocks Wonder Woman while failing to Ko her. And then... ? Sure he can hurt Superman, but he completely and utterly lacks any feats of taking down an actual durable opponent. He's a power set character because he sure as hell doesn't have the feats. I sure hope Superman can channel the speed of Damage and Liberty Belle though.

carver9
Speed kills. Zoom stomps.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by carver9
Speed kills. Zoom stomps.


Lol

abhilegend
Originally posted by krisblaze
What's with the awkward wording? 'Pet character'.

Are you trying to somehow diminsh Zoom in the eyes of other people by talking shit about him?

And I don't know. Johns had the Flash attack the same way. Sometimes he'd hit really, really hard with a few punches and other times he'd strike someone many times with weaker punches.
No, I'm just tired of this Zoom wank.


And Johns has Flashes affect everybody by their punches, even SBP and such. Do we have Flashes beating SBP by punching him now?Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I didn't have silence. I posted him punching Superman, who didn't have any ability to react to him, and was being hurt by him.

You're the one who's silent on showing anything, ANYTHING, on how Superman can do anything to Zoom. Not Thawne, not PG, not Bizarro, not Kal-L, but Superman himself, against Hunter.

Because the two times these two characters (Zolomon and Clark Kent) have met, Zolomon trolled him and treated him like a feeb. And that is inarguable. Hence, comics, in canon, have shown that 100% of the times they have met, Superman was unable to do anything to Zolomon.
Yeah, Superman was unable to do anything against Zoom under a Johns book and Damage was able to do better. So Damagae>>Superman in speed? Is that how thing work here now? Superman has much better feats than unable to hit Zoom.

And Zoom has never beaten anyone in Superman's durability level in his entire career. So yeah, I would take Superman's chances here better who has at least reacted/tagged people faster than Zoom several times.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by abhilegend
Yeah, Superman was unable to do anything against Zoom under a Johns book and Damage was able to do better. So Damagae>>Superman in speed? Is that how thing work here now? Superman has much better feats than unable to hit Zoom.

And Zoom has never beaten anyone in Superman's durability level in his entire career. So yeah, I would take Superman's chances here better who has at least reacted/tagged people faster than Zoom several times.

Or perhaps, he held back against Damage? I mean, if we go down the 'look at all these lower tier characters Superman has struggled against', I bet they're all lower than Zoom.

But of course, that would be ignoring things like PIS etc.

quanchi112
Zoom wins as their own encounter shows Superman can't even react to him.

abhilegend
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Or perhaps, he held back against Damage? I mean, if we go down the 'look at all these lower tier characters Superman has struggled against', I bet they're all lower than Zoom.

But of course, that would be ignoring things like PIS etc.
What about Liberty Belle?

DarkSaint85
Right, right. So if there was a Liberty Belle/Damage vs Superman thread, you'd argue that the team stomps?

The scan I posted has Batman being affected as badly as Superman. Same scan.

Does this mean Batman = Superman in durability/speed?

Or that Zoom holds back?

abhilegend
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Right, right. So if there was a Liberty Belle/Damage vs Superman thread, you'd argue that the team stomps?

The scan I posted has Batman being affected as badly as Superman. Same scan.

Does this mean Batman = Superman in durability/speed?

Or that Zoom holds back?
Circular reasoning. Zoom holds back so much that he has never KOED anybody of note in his entire career? I asked you showing a single Zoom showing where he KOED anybody durable and you had zilch to show.

And Zoom has a glass jaw, Superman doesn't.

krisblaze
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Right, right. So if there was a Liberty Belle/Damage vs Superman thread, you'd argue that the team stomps?
That fight was so bad too...

Zoom's punishing Damage, and then Liberty Belle surprises him with superspeed :/

DarkSaint85
Well, it seems we are at an impasse.

You cling to the low showings of Zoom.

I cling to the showing where he's affecting Superman.

At the end of the day, we will have to agree to disagree. But I will say this, then bow out.

In the scan I posted, I count five Kraks from Zoom on Supes (incidentally, two less than Batman). These all affected him negatively. Don't worry, I'm not one of those posters who thinks a 'Krak' equals something broken.

In the scan Galan posted, where he's fighting so quickly Superman can't help Wally, they've circled the Earth a dozen times, with a punch thrown every thousand miles. 25,000 miles, multiplied by 12, equals 300 punches thrown.

FIVE punches made Superman make the O face. 300 will mess him up. And that would only be the initial salvo.

Abhi, you cling to it being Johns wankery. Does it matter? I've seen you do the same when McDuffie's writing (WW being faster, Dr Light being faster). Again, does it matter? Is the comic canon? Yes, it is.

Anything else is just you trying to cloud the issue, with scan dumps. Next time, am I allowed to use Bizarro's feats for Superman? Hell no. His low showings? DEfinitely not. So when the thread title is Zoom vs Superman, and they've shown the two fighting before, and Zoom came out on top...well, that's all there is, really.

krisblaze
Abhi screams Johns wankage? He created the character :/

I'd certainly agree if someon else created the character, but Zoom's high showings are in line with his initial showings. It's not like he started out as a chump and got taken up. Zoom's initial showings were sky-high.

abhilegend
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Well, it seems we are at an impasse.

You cling to the low showings of Zoom. Low showings? I dare you to post a single showing where zoom KOED a top tier person in durability.

I don't rule out that showing either. He can affect Superman with his punches. Not KO him.

ood.

And Flash tanked them all. Is Wally more durable than Superman now?

When far more than that didn't even mess up Wally at far faster speed? I don't think so.

Canon, yes. Absolute? No. And even under Johns he has never beaten a top tier. I wonder why.

Vic&ChanceTP
Zoom>>>>>>>>Wally West>Barry Allen>>>>> Jay Garrick>>> Superman

Star428
Originally posted by Vic&ChanceTP
Zoom>>>>>>>>Wally West>Barry Allen>>>>> Jay Garrick>>> Superman



roll eyes (sarcastic)

Riiiight... Keep telling yourself that.

Branlor Swift
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Well, it seems we are at an impasse.

You cling to the low showings of Zoom.

I cling to the showing where he's affecting Superman.

At the end of the day, we will have to agree to disagree. But I will say this, then bow out.

In the scan I posted, I count five Kraks from Zoom on Supes (incidentally, two less than Batman). These all affected him negatively. Don't worry, I'm not one of those posters who thinks a 'Krak' equals something broken.

In the scan Galan posted, where he's fighting so quickly Superman can't help Wally, they've circled the Earth a dozen times, with a punch thrown every thousand miles. 25,000 miles, multiplied by 12, equals 300 punches thrown.

FIVE punches made Superman make the O face. 300 will mess him up. And that would only be the initial salvo.

Abhi, you cling to it being Johns wankery. Does it matter? I've seen you do the same when McDuffie's writing (WW being faster, Dr Light being faster). Again, does it matter? Is the comic canon? Yes, it is.

Anything else is just you trying to cloud the issue, with scan dumps. Next time, am I allowed to use Bizarro's feats for Superman? Hell no. His low showings? DEfinitely not. So when the thread title is Zoom vs Superman, and they've shown the two fighting before, and Zoom came out on top...well, that's all there is, really. You can see him hitting Superman a lot more than 5 times. erm

And then he held back against Batman while maintaining his blitzing speed...

And then Hal up and snatched him while he was at "Superman blitzing speed".

If we're under the impression that one surprise blitz off the bat is enough to rule out Superman touching him then I don't know what to say. Superman wasn't ready for him and paid the price of some punching that hurt him a little. That doesn't mean he would never be able to tag him... especially when you factor in what has.
It's a complete denial to objectively look at an average here. No Superman doesn't get other people's feats. But when he is as fast or faster than people who have tagged Zoom then surely some thought should get put into it.

And this is all off memory so I may be wrong, but...

Power girl had him by the throat when he was throwing millions of punches.
Kal-L swatted him
Damage and Liberty Belle ruined the last shred of dignity he had
He needed acceleration to go lightspeed in the last part of the "Superman standing still" arc, or his first arc.
Blind Wonder Woman got him bad in his best offensive power showing
Hal snatched him up in the "Superman blitzing" showing.
Bizarro tied him in a race then bear hugged him.
Etc.

Are those low showings, or simply using feats to show Zoom is not untouchable? It's not like the guy has enough feats to overrule these. And some of these happen in the height of Zoom's feats. Yes Damage and Liberty Belle is bad but the others are not. They are simply an argument to be had for Superman. And just acting like they didn't happen to a character with barely any feats outside these showings doesn't work. Especially when some of these instances are being used here.

Can Zoom blitz him? Sure. Can Superman tag him? I don't see why not, unless we're purely cherry picking high feats.
Can Zoom KO him is the real question however. There's a strong line between simply getting hurt and getting knocked out. And that's ignoring Superman's durability and damage soak. Zoom hit Superman... A lot and caused him to make a face. Is that to say that Superman would forever be a statue while Zoom hacks away at him for a long period of time to bring him down? Not likely. Following Superman's showings and Zoom's after that initial salvo Superman is going to likely start unloading his speed to a character largely and for a long time in his arm length distance. As we've seen before Zoom gets sloppy throwing that many punches at a time. Either sloppy or people decide to walk through him.
Then after that you've got some sort of battle.

But you still have the lingering point that Zoom hits like a girl. It's going to take more than a bad picture face to bring down Superman. Comparing damage but the guy was fully ready to fight after bleeding out of every hole in his face by Darkseid. If that doesn't come close to stopping him I doubt a couple punches that give him a bad face do.

But I digress. Can you name the most durable guy Zoom has knocked out?

I'll get home and check out his shit later today.

DARTH POWER
I wish they would make clear limits in the comics about who these speedsters can put down, and who they can't, to finish these CISless Flash and Zoom threads once and for all.

Otherwise there will never be a general consensus here because there's such a Gigantic difference in their Power Set, what they are logically capable of and how they normally perform and who they've actually put down.

Laminator_X
I lay a lot of it on some of the creatives being sketchy on the differences between Zoom and Professor Zoom. Zolomon is sometimes shown doing things that would be no problem for Thawne to do, but don't actually make any sense with the way his time powers are supposed to work.

JBL
Zoom was not trying to KO or kill superman when he blitz the hell out of him. He was talking to him as he speed punched him. When zoom and flash were fighting and superman was frozen just like everyone else, flash or zoom could have beaten him into paste at will.Zoom choosing not to even kill batman while blitzing him should set off a light in the minds of people to zooms intents. Zoom stomps in this fight and there is nothing superman can do about it.

krisblaze
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I wish they would make clear limits in the comics about who these speedsters can put down, and who they can't, to finish these CISless Flash and Zoom threads once and for all.

Otherwise there will never be a general consensus here because there's such a Gigantic difference in their Power Set, what they are logically capable of and how they normally perform and who they've actually put down.

Story generally trumps consistency when you have a universe with several writers.

Every fight generally has to be close and villains have to lose smile

abhilegend
Originally posted by Vic&ChanceTP
Zoom>>>>>>>>Wally West>Barry Allen>>>>> Jay Garrick>>> Superman
Superman has made Jay look like a statue, raced Barry to a standstill while holding back, raced Wally to a standstill and punched Professor Zoom in the face who is faster than Zoloman.

big grin

abhilegend
Originally posted by JBL
Zoom was not trying to KO or kill superman when he blitz the hell out of him. He was talking to him as he speed punched him. When zoom and flash were fighting and superman was frozen just like everyone else, flash or zoom could have beaten him into paste at will.Zoom choosing not to even kill batman while blitzing him should set off a light in the minds of people to zooms intents. Zoom stomps in this fight and there is nothing superman can do about it.
Right, that's why thousands of punches didn't even KO Flash or Zoom? Or is Flash more durable than Superman now?

abhilegend
Originally posted by krisblaze
Story generally trumps consistency when you have a universe with several writers.

Every fight generally has to be close and villains have to lose smile
Then you consider how under the same writer Black Adam beat the shit out of everybody and didn't lost once in a decade.

JBL
Originally posted by abhilegend
Right, that's why thousands of punches didn't even KO Flash or Zoom? Or is Flash more durable than Superman now? Yeah, its quite hard to hold a conversation with someone if they are KOED.Some characters want other characters that they are fighting to hear them.

krisblaze
Some people can't wrap their head around the fact that Zoom's trying to improve people.

And you can't do that if they're unconscious/dead.

abhilegend
Originally posted by JBL
Yeah, its quite hard to hold a conversation with someone if they are KOED.Some characters want other characters that they are fighting to hear them.
Yeah, that's what they were doing. Seriously? I somehow doubt Flash was doing the same who was at equal footing in speed and was doing his best to beat Zoom.

Originally posted by krisblaze
Some people can't wrap their head around the fact that Zoom's trying to improve people.

And you can't do that if they're unconscious/dead.

And what exactly was Flash doing? Manicuring his fingernails?

quanchi112
Originally posted by abhilegend
Yeah, that's what they were doing. Seriously? I somehow doubt Flash was doing the same who was at equal footing in speed and was doing his best to beat Zoom.



And what exactly was Flash doing? Manicuring his fingernails? Zoom already embarrassed him one on one. No abc logic when we have a direct counter, boy.

h1a8
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I wish they would make clear limits in the comics about who these speedsters can put down, and who they can't, to finish these CISless Flash and Zoom threads once and for all.

Otherwise there will never be a general consensus here because there's such a Gigantic difference in their Power Set, what they are logically capable of and how they normally perform and who they've actually put down. they don't kill, so that figures into things. CIS they wouldn't hold back and would use their full power.

Delta1938
So, basically, Zoom had that showing in his first story arc where he was so "fast" Wally needed a speed boost and Superman was frozen to both of them, Zoom hasn't shown to be on that level of "speed" again, and people bring-up when Zoom attacked Superman in what's basically an out of context showing(since nothing was shown before), blitzing the Trinity right before Hal catches him off-guard and embarrasses Zoom, and people arguing for Zoom/against Superman are taking those two examples as the standard?

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by h1a8
they don't kill, so that figures into things. CIS they wouldn't hold back and would use their full power.


They don't need to kill, just KO/Defeat/Capture/Whatever. Oh and does Zoom not kill?

So again I want to know who is the most powerful being Flash or Zoom can defeat. And I want it shown in a comic book.

Otherwise surely it's just in our heads that they can take the likes of Superman, when they never actually have taken someone as powerful as him.

Galan007
was it zolomon or thawne who went toe-to-toe with bart for a bit when he was empowered by the entire speed force? i thought it was zolomon..?

h1a8
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
They don't need to kill, just KO/Defeat/Capture/Whatever. Oh and does Zoom not kill?

So again I want to know who is the most powerful being Flash or Zoom can defeat. And I want it shown in a comic book.

Otherwise surely it's just in our heads that they can take the likes of Superman, when they never actually have taken someone as powerful as him. we have to use logic and suspension of disbelief to ascertain the truth of things. Direct showings aren't the only method of proof.


1. Zoom has hit harder than Superman before in comics. So we know he can do it here provided he wants to.

2. Zoom, because of his speed, can strike with a bazillion joules of kinetic energy since kinetic energy=1/2 mv^2.

3. Zoom holds back so that he can teach. This (along with 1.) implies that he can hit a lot harder than what he's shown. It's a must to say at least 2x more.

Star428
I still haven't changed my mind about this fight and I never will until someone at least provides proof of Zoom beating ANY Superman-level character. I am curious about something though. I'm wondering why Zoom doesn't break his own damn hands when he hits Superman so hard. Everyone knows hitting Superman is like hitting a brick wall to someone that doesn't have high durability. Just ask Batman who said he nearly broke his hand when he hit Superman while he was wearing that Kryptonite ring... and that was just one hit. So, how in the Hell does a character like Zoom able to hit Clark so many times and not break every bone in his hand? I think Flash is protected by the speed force or something but Zoom doesn't use it does he?

Branlor Swift
Originally posted by Star428
I still haven't changed my mind about this fight and I never will until someone at least provides proof of Zoom beating ANY Superman-level character. I am curious about something though. I'm wondering why Zoom doesn't break his own damn hands when he hits Superman so hard. Everyone knows hitting Superman is like hitting a brick wall to someone that doesn't have high durability. Just ask Batman who said he nearly broke his hand when he hit Superman while he was wearing that Kryptonite ring... and that was just one hit. So, how in the Hell does a character like Zoom able to hit Clark so many times and not break every bone in his hand? I think Flash is protected by the speed force or something but Zoom doesn't use it does he? Superman was superfast rolling with the punches.

Fact.

CadenceV2
I have never seen such a collection of Superman fans as on this forum.

Zoom wins with minor difficulty.

Star428
Still no proof of Zoom actually beating a Superman-level character? Yeah, that's what I thought. Just more BS claims of Zoom winning.

Not happening.

carver9
Speed kills. He doesn't need to beat a Superman level character.

h1a8
Originally posted by Star428
Still no proof of Zoom actually beating a Superman-level character? Yeah, that's what I thought. Just more BS claims of Zoom winning.

Not happening. Zoom doesn't need to have shown he once beat a Superman-level character in order to prove that he can.
If an unknown being one shots a planet with his bare hands then could that being beat Thing in a fistfight? Do we need to see proof of this being beating a Thing level character?

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by h1a8
Zoom doesn't need to have shown he once beat a Superman-level character in order to prove that he can.
If an unknown being one shots a planet with his bare hands then could that being beat Thing in a fistfight? Do we need to see proof of this being beating a Thing level character?

Yeah but that "unknown being" has a strength feat well beyond Thing's.

What strength/power punch feat does Zoom have that shows he can put down Supes?

Heck what feat does he have to show he can take down beings 5 miles off the ground.

krisblaze
Hurting Supes/Diana?

Star428
Originally posted by h1a8
Zoom doesn't need to have shown he once beat a Superman-level character in order to prove that he can.
If an unknown being one shots a planet with his bare hands then could that being beat Thing in a fistfight? Do we need to see proof of this being beating a Thing level character?


Uh, yeah... Actually it does have to be shown that he has beaten a Superman-level character before I will ever believe he has a chance in Hell of beating Superman. You say it doesn't have to be. I say it does. Pretty sure I'm the one who decides what I choose to believe in. Not you. smile


Your opinion is no more valid than mine.

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by krisblaze
Hurting Supes/Diana?


Hurting/Rocking them doesn't equate to defeating/KOing them. Minus tying Diana up in her own tiara.

krisblaze
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Hurting/Rocking them doesn't equate to defeating/KOing them. Minus tying Diana up in her own tiara.
Haha what.

If he can hurt them with casual punches then he can KO them..

DARTH POWER
Originally posted by krisblaze
Haha what.

If he can hurt them with casual punches then he can KO them..


That's the assumption this thread is riding on.

h1a8
Originally posted by Star428
Uh, yeah... Actually it does have to be shown that he has beaten a Superman-level character before I will ever believe he has a chance in Hell of beating Superman. You say it doesn't have to be. I say it does. Pretty sure I'm the one who decides what I choose to believe in. Not you. smile


Your opinion is no more valid than mine.

I'm the one who decides what you believe. That's why I allow you to choose in the meantime. But don't press your luck, I can take away that privilege at any time.

so you believe that Superman can hit harder than zoom ever could?

Now the fact that kinetic energy = 1/2 m v^2
Implies that if zoom's arm has a mass of 3kg and he chooses to punch with many magnitudes the speed of light, he can actually hit Superman with forces ABOVE planet shattering.
And if we take special relativity into consideration the zoom can increase the mass of his arm to astronomical portions and strike again with forces far above planet shattering. He doesn't kill and comics don't need him to do this (there would be no comic if zoom destroys Earth).

The fact that WW says he hits harder than Superman proves that indeed he can hit as hard as Superman.

krisblaze
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
That's the assumption this thread is riding on.
Diana almost blacked out when he punched her from one city to another.

It's not even a stretch of the imagination that he can knock them out.

In example the herald Red Shift never actually knocked any of the heralds out, but he hurt the Surfer. As such it's a reasonable assumption that he was capable of knocking out the Surfer.

h1a8
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
That's the assumption this thread is riding on. but isn't it common sense. It's completely Dumb to assume that a character, who is holding back, can hurt another but that character would never be able to ko them if they decided to not hold back.

Laminator_X
Now the fact that kinetic energy = 1/2 m v^2
This path leads to all sorts of contradictions though.


That should not be possible the way that Zoom's powers are stated to work. If he attempted to time warp himself to such an extreme level as you describe, the surrounding atmosphere would be harder than steel from his perspective.


Special relativity should not apply to Zoom, given that he's not really moving any faster than a normal runner, it's all pseudovelocity based on his time warping.

If it did, unlike the Flashes who use the Speed Force to get out of such problems, even attempting to throw such a punch would result in a fusion explosion in front of his fist before it even came close to connecting.

See here:
https://what-if.xkcd.com/1/

Now, comic physics seldom follows reality to any significant degree of rigor. That should also mean that unless the story you're referencing is written with rigorous physics in play, than calling out to the formulas to extrapolate beyond what's in the story isn't really justified

h1a8
Originally posted by Laminator_X
This path leads to all sorts of contradictions though.


That should not be possible the way that Zoom's powers are stated to work. If he attempted to time warp himself to such an extreme level as you describe, the surrounding atmosphere would be harder than steel from his perspective.


Special relativity should not apply to Zoom, given that he's not really moving any faster than a normal runner, it's all pseudovelocity based on his time warping.

If it did, unlike the Flashes who use the Speed Force to get out of such problems, even attempting to throw such a punch would result in a fusion explosion in front of his fist before it even came close to connecting.

See here:
https://what-if.xkcd.com/1/

Now, comic physics seldom follows reality to any significant degree of rigor. That should also mean that unless the story you're referencing is written with rigorous physics in play, than calling out to the formulas to extrapolate beyond what's in the story isn't really justified

In zooms time warp, acceleration is far slower to him and thus forces on him are lesser than those outside his warp.

If zoom hits someone by accelerating his fist at 1m/s^2 in his warp then he would feel a 3N force of his fist. But outside his warp, his fist is accelerating at 10000c outside his warp and the victim would feel planet destroying forces.

You falsely assumed that zoom will experience the same forces that he exerts outside his warp.

Remember forces damage and burn because of time. Slowing things down and even fire doesn't burn you.

Laminator_X
Originally posted by h1a8
In zooms time warp, acceleration is far slower to him and thus forces on him are lesser than those outside his warp. if this worked the way you were describing, he could not see, as light outside his personal time would be Doppler shifted out of the visible spectrum, from his perspective.

Saying something is false does not make it so, but following assumptions to contradiction does. Any attempt to apply physics as we know it to Zoom leads to contradictions.

Zoom would die of old age waiting around for the energy an explosion of the magnitude we've discussed to dissipate slowed down to safe power levels.

h1a8
Originally posted by Laminator_X
if this worked the way you were describing, he could not see, as light outside his personal time would be Doppler shifted out of the visible spectrum, from his perspective.

Saying something is false does not make it so, but following assumptions to contradiction does. Any attempt to apply physics as we know it to Zoom leads to contradictions.

Zoom would die of old age waiting around for the energy an explosion of the magnitude we've discussed to dissipate slowed down to safe power levels.
There is a difference.
We can apply physics to prove how something can work or the magnitude of things. We can't apply physics to prove why something couldn't work. This is comics and no one knows the exact way a character's powers work. Maybe there are contradictions from real physics. That's why we use the suspension of disbelief.
It's common sense within the suspension of disbelief that if an object strikes you far faster than a bullet then it would hit you far harder than a bullet.

What you don't understand is that Zoom can survive a nuke at point blank UNTIL it dissipates. He will never be affected, nor burned. Why? What makes things burn? The speed of the atoms hitting you. If the atoms are hitting you at super slow speed then your atoms will not speed up to the level where you are burning.

Laminator_X
Originally posted by h1a8
What you don't understand is that Zoom can survive a nuke at point blank UNTIL it dissipates. He will never be affected, nor burned. Why? What makes things burn? The speed of the atoms hitting you. If the atoms are hitting you at super slow speed then your atoms will not speed up to the level where you are burning.

A thermonuclear explosion releases energy on the scale of terra-Joules. If he wants to survive that (ignoring radiation poisoning and suffocation for the moment) he needs to slow down the explosion relative to himself to the point that that energy is spread out to such a degree that it's not injurious. Energy of the explosion is thus conserved, he's just adding a bunch of time to the energy transfer reduce the effective power.

Unfortunately for him, (and what you're overlooking) is that just like when he throws hundreds of punches in the blink of an eye he still has to live through all that time. To spread out TJ of energy release to a power level that he could survive, he would need to have to have billions of seconds go by in his own frame of reference for the brief moment of the explosion. One gigasecond is over thirty years.

Galan007
love all the RL physics being used to break down a fictional character who doesn't abide by RL physics in the slightest. thumb up

Laminator_X
Originally posted by Galan007
love all the RL physics being used to break down a fictional character who doesn't abide by RL physics in the slightest. thumb up

That's kind of the point I'm trying to make. Appeals to physics with a character like Zoom lead to nonsensical outcomes, and thus should generally be avoided.

abhilegend
Originally posted by CadenceV2
I have never seen such a collection of Superman fans as on this forum.

Zoom wins with minor difficulty.
Oh really? What is so wrong to demand proof of Zoom beating at least one top tier character?

Or is it really hard for you to come with an argument based on actual comics?

h1a8
Originally posted by Laminator_X
A thermonuclear explosion releases energy on the scale of terra-Joules. If he wants to survive that (ignoring radiation poisoning and suffocation for the moment) he needs to slow down the explosion relative to himself to the point that that energy is spread out to such a degree that it's not injurious. Energy of the explosion is thus conserved, he's just adding a bunch of time to the energy transfer reduce the effective power.

Unfortunately for him, (and what you're overlooking) is that just like when he throws hundreds of punches in the blink of an eye he still has to live through all that time. To spread out TJ of energy release to a power level that he could survive, he would need to have to have billions of seconds go by in his own frame of reference for the brief moment of the explosion. One gigasecond is over thirty years. You still don't understand. How does been burned work?
Heat is represented by how fast molecules are vibrating and moving. When a hot molecule (fast moving molecule) interacts with a slower molecule, it imparts momentum (collision) so that the slower molecule speeds up (becomes hotter). In reality, there is not such thing as hot since hot is basically a measure of how fast molecules are moving. Getting hit with something that is moving much faster than you will cause damage. But getting hit with something small that is moving the same speed as you or somewhat slower will not cause damage.

In conclusion, in order for Zoom to be burned, his molecules must vibrate faster than normal. But how can that happen when the radiation that's hitting him is moving and oscillating with speeds far less than his own molecules are moving. The heat from the blast might very well freeze him. Radiation poison cannot occur if one is not affected by the radiation (their molecules don't speed up significantly).

I'll help you out though. Zoom's powers are weird as phuck and may very well go against science more than any character in existence.
In reality, Zoom is suppose to be hot as phuck (hotter than the hottest stars), melting anything he touches. This is because his atoms and molecules are moving far faster than anything in the universe. The atmosphere should begin to freeze the shit out of him or him heat up the shit out of it.


So let's not discuss the physics of his powers. Let's just focus on stuff that is within the suspension of disbelief. Surely you agree that if an object can move faster than a bullet and has more mass than a bullet then it will hit harder than impart more kinetic energy to the target than a bullet would right?

Decimus
Zoom destroys Superman

carver9
Bump

mighty adam
Supes should lose this one fighting within character. But if this was superboy prime hell just destroy the planet killing zoom.

Pillow Biter
If the board rules essentially mean they fight more realistically than in the comics, then Flash and Zoom both beat Superman 100/10. End of discussion. It's not even that interesting.

The more interesting discussion is how it would go in the comics. Superman should win that.

wxyz
Bump.

One Big Mob
Superman punches him so hard his ears fall off.

wxyz
bump.

h1a8
Zoom wins

Blight
Has Zoom ever come back? He was cool.

Darth Thor
Love the double standards on both sides of this argument from the Superman lovers and Superman haters.

9jaboy
Bump

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