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Current Sentry vs Zarathos.

This is a tough one. Like I was saying in another thread Sentry doesn't have Agoraphobia anymore so he can fully understand and control his power at his will. He also isn't scared releasing his power now either since he used to believe if he lost control the Void would return. Given what we have seen Sentry do in the past (non Death Seed) and current he is a beast as he is no longer scared of using the molecules to his advantage, given with all the things we have seen Sentry do this sounds like a tough match.

I am not as much an expert on Zarathos so I will see what others on the forum say before deciding.

Ghost Rider is pretty hard core as long it's the actual Spirit in the fight.

Each Spirit of Vengeance is a Angle of the Bliblical god who is stated to created the Marvel World (confirmed in Howard the Duck) as well created Heaven and Mankind (stated in Ghost Rider comics).

As such Ghost Rider with Spirit in full control like Zarathos has easily beaten Mephisto, Zadkiel with the power of God himself, Doctor Strange, Hulk several times, and matched Ketch who had several Ghost Riders worth of power.

Ketch himself had the Nobel Kale Spirit which had feats of beating Nightmare twice, Blackheart several times, and the Angel Uriel who was stated as equals of Mephisto.

The new current Ghost Rider has used his spirit to take on the avengers which included Thor, Scarlet Witch, and Doctor Strange at the same time with no effort.

So all Spirits show Hell Lord to low Sky Father level power as long it is the spirit in control.

Originally posted by CadenceV2
Ghost Rider is pretty hard core as long it's the actual Spirit in the fight.

Each Spirit of Vengeance is a Angle of the Bliblical god who is stated to created the Marvel World (confirmed in Howard the Duck) as well created Heaven and Mankind (stated in Ghost Rider comics).

As such Ghost Rider with Spirit in full control like Zarathos has easily beaten Mephisto, Zadkiel with the power of God himself, Doctor Strange, Hulk several times, and matched Ketch who had several Ghost Riders worth of power.

Ketch himself had the Nobel Kale Spirit which had feats of beating Nightmare twice, Blackheart several times, and the Angel Uriel who was stated as equals of Mephisto.

The new current Ghost Rider has used his spirit to take on the avengers which included Thor, Scarlet Witch, and Doctor Strange at the same time with no effort.

So all Spirits show Hell Lord to low Sky Father level power as long it is the spirit in control.

If I recall wasn't it Yahweh or TOAA that gave the Ghost Rider the power?

Were the battles involving Mephisto in his dimension like the Galactus battle or were they outside?

Also with regards to that issue (Uncanny Avengers Annual) I believe you are speaking of. I do have that issue. I believe he did do good against the Avengers but the Sentry has equally dealt with Thor as if he was trampling on an ant.

Now I don't think it's out of the question to suggest Sentry could do such a thing either. Don't forget he has already pretty much according to UA #21 or 22 (depending on your interpretation Note: I am not picking a side here) either equalled or exceeded the power of every hero on Earth combined.

With the above questions I don't mean them to sound argumentative or anything I am just inquisitive as I am not to up to date with GR. Another reason this fight is difficult as I believe we still have yet to see Sentry's maximum here. From the little we have seen he has stopped Mjolnir via molecular manipulation. KO'd Thor in 2 hits and KO'd him with heat vision.

Plus we have statements from Robert stating that hurting his flesh is pointless as he is guided by his soul. He had his brain smashed in pieces by Thor and his whole head was back within a few panels. And given that the whole arc in Marvel time was 7 hours that could've only been a few seconds.

This will be a very tough battle.

GR at his peak wins handily.

Originally posted by Insane Titan
GR at his peak wins handily.

Besides from feats Cadence mentioned what other things has Zarathos done? I don't mean that to say Zarathos is weak. Just want to know a bit more about the character.

We know that the Rider's go-to attack(the Penance Stare) is useless against people who are mentally compromised to max ala Deadpool . Sentry falls under similar levels of insane.

Hence, Sentry wins.

Originally posted by Epicurus
We know that the Rider's go-to attack(the Penance Stare) is useless against people who are mentally compromised to max ala Deadpool . Sentry falls under similar levels of insane.

Hence, Sentry wins.

Such a nonsense statement as the very insane Mad Cap was fully KO by the Penance Stare twice even though he is insane. So insane that his powers were driving people insane!

Nonsense is nonsense.

Also Deadpool was on the ground KOed for a short while. I read the issue. The only being to inconsistently be immune was Venom, and I say inconsistent as Venom was affected to a degree with pain the first fight he had with Ketch.

Obvious plot is obvious plot.

Originally posted by One_Angry_Scot
If I recall wasn't it Yahweh or TOAA that gave the Ghost Rider the power?

Were the battles involving Mephisto in his dimension like the Galactus battle or were they outside?

Also with regards to that issue (Uncanny Avengers Annual) I believe you are speaking of. I do have that issue. I believe he did do good against the Avengers but the Sentry has equally dealt with Thor as if he was trampling on an ant.

Now I don't think it's out of the question to suggest Sentry could do such a thing either. Don't forget he has already pretty much according to UA #21 or 22 (depending on your interpretation Note: I am not picking a side here) either equalled or exceeded the power of every hero on Earth combined.

With the above questions I don't mean them to sound argumentative or anything I am just inquisitive as I am not to up to date with GR. Another reason this fight is difficult as I believe we still have yet to see Sentry's maximum here. From the little we have seen he has stopped Mjolnir via molecular manipulation. KO'd Thor in 2 hits and KO'd him with heat vision.

Plus we have statements from Robert stating that hurting his flesh is pointless as he is guided by his soul. He had his brain smashed in pieces by Thor and his whole head was back within a few panels. And given that the whole arc in Marvel time was 7 hours that could've only been a few seconds.

This will be a very tough battle.

Yes, Yaweh is the closest thing to biblical god in Marvel comics by the various comics with him in it.

Mephisto was beaten by Zarathos unleashed fully in his own realm, and had to beat Zarathos in their first comic fight (70s/80s) with plot device of the souless man.

Zarathos and Nobel Kale Spirits beaten Blackheart in his own hell several times, as well Nightmare in his Realm.

I think its a good match as Hellfire GR uses is soul attacking in nature, thus allows GR to harm Sentry in some way.

Here is also a Respect thread i made for ghost Rider base on the Ghost rider comics from the 70s to the end of Jason's run on the series. Before that Female Rider or the new current Rider. So most current feats of the past 2-3 years are not here. Except some feats on the very bottom post of GR fighting Man Thing, Wanda, Thor, and Strange at the same time.

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/ghost-rider-tribute-1457426/

Originally posted by CadenceV2
Yes, Yaweh is the closest thing to biblical god in Marvel comics by the various comics with him in it.

Mephisto was beaten by Zarathos unleashed fully in his own realm, and had to beat Zarathos in their first comic fight (70s/80s) with plot device of the souless man.

Zarathos and Nobel Kale Spirits beaten Blackheart in his own hell several times, as well Nightmare in his Realm.

I think its a good match as Hellfire GR uses is soul attacking in nature, thus allows GR to harm Sentry in some way.

Here is also a Respect thread i made for ghost Rider base on the Ghost rider comics from the 70s to the end of Jason's run on the series. Before that Female Rider or the new current Rider. So most current feats of the past 2-3 years are not here. Except some feats on the very bottom post of GR fighting Man Thing, Wanda, Thor, and Strange at the same time.

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/ghost-rider-tribute-1457426/

Thanks, just had a read through that thread. Loved the artwork on the issue where he fights Kazaar. I never actually knew that much about Zarathos/Ghost Rider so that thread helped me a lot.

Awesome respect thread you have there.

Originally posted by One_Angry_Scot
Thanks, just had a read through that thread. Loved the artwork on the issue where he fights Kazaar. I never actually knew that much about Zarathos/Ghost Rider so that thread helped me a lot.

Awesome respect thread you have there.

Thanks.

CadenceV2, Punisher has also tanked the PS.

Assuming the PS works on Sentry, GR wins. If not, its going to be a long drawn out fight with no real winner.
I dont think GR can put Sentry down.
I think GR can reform from any damage Sentry can inflict.

Originally posted by riv6672
CadenceV2, Punisher has also tanked the PS.

Assuming the PS works on Sentry, GR wins. If not, its going to be a long drawn out fight with no real winner.
I dont think GR can put Sentry down.
I think GR can reform from any damage Sentry can inflict.

I heard of this once, but never seen that instance myself. Do you know where I can find that feat?

Originally posted by CadenceV2
I heard of this once, but never seen that instance myself. Do you know where I can find that feat?

The issue before the most recent Thunderbolts issue where Punisher fights GR. He's able to resist b/c he doesn't regret anything The writers have been treating GR almost like fodder since he joined.

found it

http://s5d1.turboimagehost.com/t/19704510_Thunderbolts_2012-_029-016.jpg

Originally posted by Insane Titan
GR at his peak wins handily.

Originally posted by Insane Titan
GR at his peak wins handily.

Originally posted by Supermutant
The issue before the most recent Thunderbolts issue where Punisher fights GR. He's able to resist b/c he doesn't regret anything The writers have been treating GR almost like fodder since he joined.

found it

http://s5d1.turboimagehost.com/t/19704510_Thunderbolts_2012-_029-016.jpg

Uuuuuuuuug!!!!!

I was really excited for GR to be on Thunderbolts, but GR has been heavily treated like garbage in those issues. The fact GR stated Venom had too many sins when he tried to PS him contradicts the very nature of the PS as stated in all the other GR comics. Amount of sins matter not. Now they say Punisher regrets nothing, yet demonic beings or angels who feel no regret in any act they do for god or the various devils cannot tank the PS. Madcap of even Deadpool cannot tank the PS, but Punisher can?

It's official, the Thunderbolts writer really showed he has NO Clue how to handle GR, and proves the writer never read any amount of GR comics.

(Walks away ranting)

Originally posted by One_Angry_Scot
Besides from feats Cadence mentioned what other things has Zarathos done? I don't mean that to say Zarathos is weak. Just want to know a bit more about the character. Don't expect an answer from him. He can barely even remember his login.

Originally posted by CadenceV2
I heard of this once, but never seen that instance myself. Do you know where I can find that feat?
Not to contradict Supermutant, but the exact same thing happened When GR and Punisher first met (GR vol3 issues 5,6) in the first Danny Ketch series.
So, this was established since 1990, not just something thrown in recently.

Sorry, mo scans found.

Originally posted by riv6672
Not to contradict Supermutant, but the exact same thing happened When GR and Punisher first met (GR vol3 issues 5,6) in the first Danny Ketch series.
So, this was established since 1990, not just something thrown in recently.

Sorry, mo scans found.

Actually I own both issues. Looking through them right now and nowhere does GR even tried to PS punisher in them. Both have a very short one sided fight before falling through the roof top which led them to the real villain. Then they are partners through the rest of the arc.

So punisher has never shown to tank a PS prior to Thinderbolts.

Originally posted by CadenceV2
Uuuuuuuuug!!!!!

I was really excited for GR to be on Thunderbolts, but GR has been heavily treated like garbage in those issues. The fact GR stated Venom had too many sins when he tried to PS him contradicts the very nature of the PS as stated in all the other GR comics. Amount of sins matter not. Now they say Punisher regrets nothing, yet demonic beings or angels who feel no regret in any act they do for god or the various devils cannot tank the PS. Madcap of even Deadpool cannot tank the PS, but Punisher can?

It's official, the Thunderbolts writer really showed he has NO Clue how to handle GR, and proves the writer never read any amount of GR comics.

(Walks away ranting)

Its not really stupid imo

Frank himself hasn't killed innocent people mostly evil folks....its all a matter of perception. Back during WWH some could say the hulk attacking earth out for revenge was evil but the ghost rider didn't think so.

Originally posted by Kazenji
Its not really stupid imo

Frank himself hasn't killed innocent people mostly evil folks....its all a matter of perception. Back during WWH some could say the hulk attacking earth out for revenge was evil but the ghost rider didn't think so.

Yes it's stupid as that is not how the Penance Stare works at all. The Penance does not rely on guilt at all. It's been stated to force you to feel all the pain and suffering you committed. Period. Nothing to do with how you feel about your crimes.

The why didn't the Rider use the Penance Stare back during WWH then

besides what i mentioned in the previous post.

Originally posted by CadenceV2
Actually I own both issues. Looking through them right now and nowhere does GR even tried to PS punisher in them. Both have a very short one sided fight before falling through the roof top which led them to the real villain. Then they are partners through the rest of the arc.

So punisher has never shown to tank a PS prior to Thinderbolts.
So GR staring Frank down with the black panel to signify the PS not working was my imagination?
Could be, but i'm not the only one to cite that incident, prior to the more recent example taking the lead.

Even if i'm wrong, which i doubt, it doesnt invalidate the T-Bolts feat.
It happened, and a lot of GR fans, at least one on this site refuse to acknowledge it because they dont like it.
Well, i didnt like Superman beating Thor, but i'm not going to disregard or lowball it by blaming the writers. Just saying.

Back on topic, without the PS i dont see a clear winner here.

Originally posted by Kazenji
The why didn't the Rider use the Penance Stare back during WWH then

besides what i mentioned in the previous post.
Because of inconsistencies..

Because the writers then didn't know how it worked.

Because the comic was called WWH, and was meant to showcase how awesome the Hulk was.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Because the comic was called WWH, and was meant to showcase how awesome the Hulk was.

Originally posted by krisblaze
Because of inconsistencies..

Because the writers then didn't know how it worked.

Nope

The ghost rider didn't think WWH was doing anything wrong.

Originally posted by Kazenji
Nope

The ghost rider didn't think WWH was doing anything wrong.
You don't seem to understand.

Right and wrong doesn't factor in, it's about suffering.

Nor does it have anything to do with the current storyline.

In his lifetime, Hulk has caused people to suffer, ergo the penance stare would harm him.

Originally posted by Kazenji
The why didn't the Rider use the Penance Stare back during WWH then

besides what i mentioned in the previous post.

As others said above, the real reason the Penance Stare did not work is because GR never used it on Hulk. Never did GR tried to state in his eyes face to face and drawn using his PS.

He left Hulk alone because Hulk was not Zarathos target, only Blazes. It states this in the comic at the begining!

Originally posted by riv6672
So GR staring Frank down with the black panel to signify the PS not working was my imagination?
Could be, but i'm not the only one to cite that incident, prior to the more recent example taking the lead.

Even if i'm wrong, which i doubt, it doesnt invalidate the T-Bolts feat.
It happened, and a lot of GR fans, at least one on this site refuse to acknowledge it because they dont like it.
Well, i didnt like Superman beating Thor, but i'm not going to disregard or lowball it by blaming the writers. Just saying.

Back on topic, without the PS i dont see a clear winner here.

Nowhere in the fight does GR get face to face with Punisher nor ever drawn he was using a PS in any way. Just because tons of ignorant people cite the source does not change the fact it was never stated or shown to happen.

Originally posted by CadenceV2

He left Hulk alone because Hulk was not Zarathos target, only Blazes. It states this in the comic at the begining!

And as stated in the final book to do with WWH from Dr Strange

"The Ghost Rider avenges only the innocent"

Originally posted by CadenceV2
Nowhere in the fight does GR get face to face with Punisher nor ever drawn he was using a PS in any way. Just because tons of ignorant people cite the source does not change the fact it was never stated or shown to happen.

Well, dont really care that you think i'm ignorant for misremembering something (IF i am) thats been corroborated for years on various boards.
I myself find people who refuse to acknowledge incidents that HAVE been shown to happen ignorant.

Originally posted by Kazenji
And as stated in the final book to do with WWH from Dr Strange

"The Ghost Rider avenges only the innocent"

Which the Illuminati were, as it was never them who set the bomb off. Miek did. The Illuminati never killed Caiera, their baby or the planet. Miek amped the bomb as well, IIRC.

Hell, Professor X wasn't even there to vote, and Hulk still rampaged through Westchester.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Which the Illuminati were, as it was never them who set the bomb off. Miek did. The Illuminati never killed Caiera, their baby or the planet. Miek amped the bomb as well, IIRC.


Well yeah....it was early on when this WWH Ghost Rider tie-in happened.

As for the fight, stalemate, imo. Really close fight.

Pretty much.

Originally posted by CadenceV2

Each Spirit of Vengeance is a Angle of the Bliblical god who is stated
to created the Marvel World (confirmed in Howard the Duck)
as well created Heaven and Mankind (stated in Ghost Rider comics).
Yahweh, Lucifer, any angel, and all of heaven, ... is nothing to the Marvel cosmic hierarchy.
Yahweh also has nothing to do with creating 616-Earth or humanity. (single fallacious claim in a "H the D" book isn't suffice to make it a confirmation)
It's no different than Thor books (because they're Thor books) sometimes alluding to Odin as humanity's creator.

But, in terms of books in general, (various separate Marvel titles) the Celestials seeded the planets with life. (yearS before Pak)

In fact, primarily the Divine hierarchy is only really relevant in Ghost-Rider books.
It's basically like inconsequential concerning the cosmos.

I'd put Yahweh at Sky-Father level, ... if that.
Originally posted by CadenceV2

Yes, Yaweh is the closest thing to biblical god in Marvel comics
True, but the biblical god is not much weight in Marvel.

Again, Sky-Father at best.

Originally posted by riv6672
Well, dont really care that you think i'm ignorant for misremembering something (IF i am) thats been corroborated for years on various boards.
I myself find people who refuse to acknowledge incidents that HAVE been shown to happen ignorant.

I understand where your coming from, and when I get home I will post the whe fight so you can see for yourself

I have no problem admitting it failed on Eddie Venom to a degree, and it flat out failed for no reason at all on Punisher and Flash Venom in Thunderbolts (which in itself is obvious as WIS on the character), but it did not fail on Deadpool or Punisher (first encounter) as many seem to say.

So in short my philosophy is scans or I never happen, in which case I will prove my point on it.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Yahweh, Lucifer, any angel, and all of heaven, ... is nothing to the Marvel cosmic hierarchy.
Yahweh also has nothing to do with creating 616-Earth or humanity. (single fallacious claim in a "H the D" book isn't suffice to make it a confirmation)
It's no different than Thor books (because they're Thor books) sometimes alluding to Odin as humanity's creator.

But, in terms of books in general, (various separate Marvel titles) the Celestials seeded the planets with life. (yearS before Pak)

In fact, primarily the Divine hierarchy is only really relevant in Ghost-Rider books.
It's basically like inconsequential concerning the cosmos.

I'd put Yahweh at Sky-Father level, ... if that.

True, but the biblical god is not much weight in Marvel.

Again, Sky-Father at best.

I agree Yahweh is sky father at best. However the Recent Ghost Rider took on the entire Avenegers, and did not lose. This included Man Thing (Hell Lord level) Doctor Strange, Wanda (same chick who help beat Phoenix) and Thor himself (he is near Skyfather alone!) proving Ghost Rider Spirits, and by extension Yaweh is Odin level at the least IMO.

Originally posted by CadenceV2
I agree Yahweh is sky father at best. However the Recent Ghost Rider took on the entire Avenegers, and did not lose. This included Man Thing (Hell Lord level) Doctor Strange, Wanda (same chick who help beat Phoenix) and Thor himself (he is near Skyfather alone!) proving Ghost Rider Spirits, and by extension Yaweh is Odin level at the least IMO.

I wouldn't say Thor is near Skyfather. He's a High Herald at best. Unless you're talking about King Thor. Plus that fight wasn't really conclusive, nobody was bloodied. The most damage anyone suffered in that comic was when Thor smashed Wolverines head through a ceiling in a drinking contest.

Originally posted by One_Angry_Scot
I wouldn't say Thor is near Skyfather. He's a High Herald at best. Unless you're talking about King Thor. Plus that fight wasn't really conclusive, nobody was bloodied. The most damage anyone suffered in that comic was when Thor smashed Wolverines head through a ceiling in a drinking contest.
High herald at best?

He's obviously not a skyfather, but I can't imagine what else he'd be other than high herald.

Him, together with Surfer and Superman are basically the foundation for the High Herald rank.

Originally posted by krisblaze
High herald at best?

He's obviously not a skyfather, but I can't imagine what else he'd be other than high herald.

Him, together with Surfer and Superman are basically the foundation for the High Herald rank.


Perhaps I phrased it incorrectly. I meant he isn't Skyfather but he is a High Herald, didn't mean he was weak and HH was his max. Apologies for the misunderstanding.

I agree with what you said about Surfer, Thor and Supes.

What constitutes a win in this thread?

Do we assume that they can come back an infinite number of times?

Originally posted by One_Angry_Scot
Perhaps I phrased it incorrectly. I meant he isn't Skyfather but he is a High Herald, didn't mean he was weak and HH was his max. Apologies for the misunderstanding.

I agree with what you said about Surfer, Thor and Supes.
Then we're in total agreement

Yes they can comeback as many times as they can. I always assume this was a stalemate when I thought of it. I am sure the PS could work, but to pull it off would require holding Sentry in place which is easier said then done. The Hell fire that burns the soul may be a game changer.

Originally posted by CadenceV2
Yes they can comeback as many times as they can. I always assume this was a stalemate when I thought of it. I am sure the PS could work, but to pull it off would require holding Sentry in place which is easier said then done. The Hell fire that burns the soul may be a game changer.

The problem is with Sentry it works in a weird way. He has as you know reformed from anytime he has been destroyed. Even from complete destruction (via Molecule Man). So essentially Zarathos can't win via dispersing his body over a wide area as without his own discretion Robert can't die. And the hell fire may or may not work who knows. Like I said in my first message. A very tough fight here.

Neither am I sure about a penance stare. Sentry has a remarkable control over his mind (note I mean in terms of people trying to access his thoughts). If you remember the incidents with Dr Strange or the time he controlled how much Absorbing Man could see of his mind. Now that he isn't afraid of utilising his power it makes this much harder.

Originally posted by CadenceV2
I understand where your coming from, and when I get home I will post the whe fight so you can see for yourself

I have no problem admitting it failed on Eddie Venom to a degree, and it flat out failed for no reason at all on Punisher and Flash Venom in Thunderbolts (which in itself is obvious as WIS on the character), but it did not fail on Deadpool or Punisher (first encounter) as many seem to say.

So in short my philosophy is scans or I never happen, in which case I will prove my point on it.
My philosophy is the poster determines the credulity i give the info provided, as i've seen scans totally misinterpreted.
I mean, you dont know me so there you go.